0:00

Sex try to get loose, he'll fire down

0:04

or scarl it

0:07

upstairs. All Allen

0:12

locked the shot at the rim.

0:15

Welcome to the Chase Down Podcast, part of the Calves

0:17

media family. I'm your host, Justin Rowan. Larry

0:19

Nance Jr. Has been traded to the Portland

0:22

Trailblazers in a three team deal,

0:24

sending Lorie Market into the Calves.

0:26

This was not something that I expected

0:28

in any way, shape or form.

0:31

But joining me today to discuss it is my

0:33

co host Carter Rodriguez. Carter, how's it going,

0:35

buddy? I mean, I'll tell you what it

0:37

just feels like. Um,

0:39

you know, if you think that you

0:42

know what the Calves are going to be doing, like

0:45

because you've got some sauces, you got

0:47

some friends in the org um.

0:49

Most of the time, we like

0:51

no one, any reported

0:53

Calves deal that gets out does not happen.

0:56

And and when they do happen,

0:58

it is like, oh, I was not

1:01

ready for that. So like maybe we're just not as

1:03

well sourced as we want to be. But I

1:05

never hear I never hear this

1:07

stuff ahead of time. I mean, Jared

1:10

Allen, Ricky Rubio and now Laurie Market,

1:12

and those were three names that we did not hear.

1:15

But before those deals happened,

1:17

they weren't bubblic like, not even an

1:19

inkling of it. And uh, yeah,

1:22

it's it certainly was a surprise. We

1:24

had already kind of discussed a little bit the

1:26

possibility of nance being traded,

1:28

and I think you and I were kind of on the same page

1:31

where we felt, hey, this

1:33

is a potential option to balance

1:36

the roster, to add a wing, uh

1:38

slop power forward for wing. And

1:40

that's not what materialized. But instead

1:43

what we get is a different gamble where

1:46

you're basically swapping defense

1:48

for offense. Uh, in the

1:50

hopes that Laurie Marketing can help

1:52

alleviate some of the congestion

1:54

that the CAZ experienced last year. Yeah,

1:57

I mean it's not or

2:00

I thought they were going to go. And I think we should just start

2:02

with do we like it? You know, it's kind of a

2:04

a simple question, a simple question that

2:07

gets a simple answer. But um,

2:09

and then we can kind of take a dive. I

2:11

don't. I don't love it. I don't. I'm a little

2:13

nervous about all the allocations at the

2:16

at the forward its center positions right now,

2:19

especially people who aren't super Um.

2:22

You know that can't really go down. It's not like this team

2:24

is like the Raptors

2:26

or something where you got a bunch of three four hybrids

2:30

the Raptor. It's the inverse of the Raptors. They have

2:33

everyone six nine and not a

2:35

lot of variety outside of that. Yeah,

2:38

so, um, it is

2:40

an interesting move, I think. I

2:43

mean, I think at its base

2:46

that you could almost probably keep

2:48

it as simple as Caps wanted shooting

2:51

Lorie best shooter on market, Caps

2:53

get glory marketing. Um.

2:56

And on its face, I think

2:58

that's a fine set of reasons.

3:00

You know, this is a team that has

3:03

has a backcourt that has

3:06

had a hard time, um uh, convincing

3:08

themselves to get up enough in threes. Um.

3:11

They've got a forward prospect in Isaac

3:13

acro who's jump shot is a work

3:15

in progress, and they just drafted

3:18

Evan Mobley and signed Jared Allen, two players who

3:20

aren't particularly good shooters, at

3:23

least it currently stands out. We're hoping that Mobley's

3:25

jump shot develops that

3:28

faster than we think it will. Um.

3:31

So you know you need you needed a release

3:33

valve, and and again

3:36

not to harp on the Kevin Love contract, but that's what Kevin

3:38

I was supposed to do for this team, be that be

3:40

that veteran presence that kind of stretched

3:42

the floor for everyone. But that's that wasn't there, and

3:45

it's not something the team feels like they can count

3:47

on anymore. And based on all the evidence,

3:49

that seems correct. Um,

3:52

so you know, if he does fit a need,

3:55

but I am worried about all that money

3:57

tied up in in those that those positions,

4:00

and frankly, just the fact that I do think

4:02

Larry was their best remaining trade chip that they

4:04

actually wanted to use and

4:07

it wasn't used on a small forward and

4:09

this is a team that is in pretty

4:11

dire need of small forwards. Though, I'll

4:14

I'm monologue so that you respond, but

4:17

I do think there's some counters to that line of thinking.

4:19

Even if that was my immediate reaction. Yeah,

4:22

I still think so one of my big things

4:24

is that I'm a little concerned

4:27

about the ability to add a wing. Chris

4:29

feed Or did mention that the Calves are still

4:32

monitoring the trade marketing and still looking

4:34

to get a wing option with with other assets.

4:37

So we'll see as this offseason

4:39

continues to kind of unravel whether

4:42

or not they're able to accomplish that. I

4:44

guess one of the nice things is that Lori marking

4:47

in alleviate some of the need

4:49

that you have for shooting, just because now as

4:52

the third big in the rotation, which is

4:54

how I see him once again, a

4:57

lot of if I say reported, it's pretty much

4:59

Chris feed Organ, He's covered the hell out of this UM.

5:02

But he basically said the indications

5:04

he gets is that Mobile is going to be the starter, Laurie

5:07

is going to be the third big, and

5:09

it's kind of an admittance that Kevin

5:12

Love can't be counted on it at this stage of

5:14

his career. If he can give you something, that's

5:16

nice. But we saw in April with

5:19

Kevin Love coming into the lineup,

5:21

what a difference it made for the offense. UH

5:23

In the month of April, the Cavs went up to thirteenth

5:26

and three point frequency, their offense went up

5:28

to one oh nine. And Laurie's

5:30

a better player than Kevin Love at this stage

5:32

of their careers, and a

5:35

more reliable one. So I think

5:37

having Lorie market and split his minutes

5:39

with Jared Allen and Evan Mobley,

5:42

UM, it's going to help make

5:44

things a little easier for them. It's going to give them more

5:46

room to operate. It's going to give Garland and Sexton

5:48

more room to operate. And the other nice

5:51

thing, uh is as

5:53

Mobile continues to develop and we find

5:55

out more and more about who he is as a player, you

5:57

have two different bigs in Jared Allen

5:59

a trade sational center and Laurie kind of a stretch

6:01

for to get a sense of how he works

6:04

with different partners. And I think that's a really

6:06

interesting dynamic moving forward and

6:08

a little bit of a way to kind of head your bets

6:10

as you figure out exactly what he is in the NBA.

6:14

Yeah, totally, um, And I

6:16

do think that it kind of allows you to not

6:19

feel that impetus to even if you know, like

6:21

for a player, you know this

6:23

obviously didn't I'm happening. But when we

6:25

were talking about guy like Josh Hart for the team, like, oh,

6:27

but he probably doesn't really work because

6:29

they because the shooting is out there and

6:32

they just need shooting really bad. This this doesn't

6:34

allow some optionality on the wing, Like

6:37

I mean, this is still a

6:39

big year for zac Corus Jumper,

6:41

don't get me wrong, but it's less of a big

6:43

year, you know. UM,

6:46

And while marketing does come with some pretty

6:49

distinct downsides, I think they're pretty

6:51

well equipped to insulate them.

6:53

Yeah, like the two

6:56

previous moves, adding Rubio and adding

6:58

mobili Are doesn't defense for moves.

7:00

Doesn't it feel like UM market

7:03

and should pull every minute Marketing is on the floor, Ruby

7:05

I should be on the floor, and vice versa.

7:08

UM. I would imagine that, like,

7:10

if we're talking rotation, I would imagine

7:13

that Colin Sexton and Evan Mobile

7:15

are the first guys to sub out for Rubio and

7:17

Laurie. And that's

7:19

interesting because I would that's not what I would do

7:22

that that would be my assumption because then

7:24

you're basically having those guys run the second

7:26

unit. So you're in a position where

7:29

Evan Mobile is doing that second unit playmaking

7:31

from the high post that Nance probably

7:34

would have done. Um, you're

7:36

accepting the fact that that's going to come with growing

7:38

pains, Like I think Mobile is probably a more

7:40

talented passer than Nance, but at the

7:42

same time, he's twenty and he's starting his

7:44

NBA career. He's going to make a lot of mistakes

7:47

in those situations. But what

7:49

I would kind of envision is that your second

7:51

unit, as the rotation goes along,

7:54

your most foremost common guys in

7:56

that second unit is probably gonna be Rubio, Sexton,

7:59

uh Ari, and mobiley

8:02

like that. That would probably be my guest,

8:04

because now all of a sudden, you have a

8:06

point of attack defender and Rubio. That's going to

8:08

help alleviate some of your concerns

8:11

with Lori. Uh

8:13

you have spacing for calling sex in the second

8:15

unit. I mean the second unit minutes

8:17

just there was no space and there was no scoring,

8:20

and this addresses those concerns in

8:22

some ways. Um, So that would

8:24

be how I would anticipate it. I think those guys

8:26

are probably playing the majority of those second

8:29

unit minutes. Yeah, and we're gonna be a little

8:31

scrambled with this podcast. I realized we probably

8:33

still just be talking about Luria the player and Larry

8:36

the player and that those moves. But with that

8:38

said, we're here, um and we're kind

8:40

of going all over the place. One thing I will

8:42

say that just occurs to me is

8:44

that Lori being on the team

8:47

allows JB a little bicker

8:50

JB bicker stuff, a little um

8:53

leeway to play

8:55

nonshooters. Of the three guys like Lamar

8:57

Stevens, who by every

9:00

account had a better year than Jetty

9:02

or Dylan Windler last year. And we were like,

9:04

well, you know, bumber

9:06

for Lamar because he isn't gonna get to play because he can't

9:09

shoot, and there isn't enough

9:11

minutes at the four. Well maybe there are a little

9:13

bit more minutes at at the three now if

9:15

you're especially if you're if Love is getting minutes

9:17

and you're playing minutes with

9:20

Love or Laurie at the four or five.

9:23

So, um, yeah, you

9:25

do unlock a lot of optionality. I do think we

9:27

should talk about just the larger

9:29

value proposition though, Like I

9:32

think that Larry

9:35

for an expensive

9:37

forward who, by the way, we wanted last year,

9:40

both of us. We wanted him like that. I

9:42

wanted him at the trade deadline, like it

9:44

wasn't that long ago. And

9:46

you know, I do feel like for me, the

9:49

Mobili pick did changed my calculus a little

9:51

bit, Like this wasn't a team that needed a four long

9:53

term anymore, so I was like a little

9:55

less intrigued by him. Um,

9:58

like, do you think the Cats got good value for Larry?

10:01

I guess that's kind of the large question.

10:03

And like

10:06

because I think the consensus is that Larry

10:08

is better than Laurie. I think

10:10

Larry is a more impactful Larry

10:13

is a more impactful player than Lorie market

10:15

and I don't think there's any denying that. Um.

10:18

And that's one of those one

10:20

of the reasons why I don't love this

10:22

trade. Um. I see the

10:24

upside in it. I actually think that this raises

10:27

the team ceiling, but I think it lowers their floor.

10:29

I think the ways that this could go bad. Um,

10:32

another kid, a little kid on the floor because

10:34

he's I mean, Marketing is a little everybody's

10:36

twenty four, right, yeah,

10:38

he's, Uh, this will be his age four

10:41

season. Um. So it's

10:43

interesting in that way. UM.

10:46

I mean, when you're talking about the complete

10:48

picture and you're talking about the presence of Kevin

10:50

Love, like that is obviously awkward. But at

10:52

the same time, I don't think

10:54

you should necessarily stop yourself

10:57

from making moves be

10:59

on account of Kevin Love's presence, right, Like

11:01

he if he's still on the roster at

11:04

the start of the season, he'll be in the rotation,

11:06

but he's probably the fourth big he might

11:08

have to accept maybe fifteen minutes

11:10

and night kind of thing. Like that that will be

11:12

an interesting thing to monitor. But

11:15

when you're talking about the next four or five years

11:17

here, I do think between the

11:19

ninety six minutes that you have at

11:21

the four and the five, you can you

11:23

can get these three guys a lot of time.

11:25

Lori market and essentially becomes here

11:28

and well, Kevin's here, You're gonna have to play

11:30

him. Yeah, absolutely, And I

11:33

mean we can talk about the minute distribution, but

11:35

on a night to night basis, it's going to be what's

11:37

working. Who's playing well, Is Kevin giving

11:39

full effort? Is Laurie playing well? Like

11:42

There's gonna be some competition there, which I think

11:44

is healthy. UM. But at the same time,

11:46

it is concerning that you're going from

11:49

Larry, who, in when he was available

11:51

and healthy last season, really made

11:54

a big impact on the defensive end,

11:56

and now you're kind of relying on Evan Mobley

11:58

a little more on defense than I think you

12:01

would have Uhender

12:05

his rookie year. I mean, that's just there's

12:07

no evidence to just guys normally are

12:09

UM and and you know, I really think the biggest

12:12

thing that they losing Larry is like

12:14

this is a team that hasn't has plenty

12:16

of guys who have interesting skill sets,

12:19

an interesting um you know, potential

12:22

ceilings. Like what they

12:24

are you know, desperately short on is basketball

12:27

know how? And I mean, this is one less

12:29

adult in the room right and

12:31

and you know, when you were looking at heading to the season

12:34

of you know, Rubio and

12:36

Nanson even maybe Kevin coming off the

12:38

bench, um, you go, wow,

12:40

that's a lot of like if you're gonna have a

12:42

team with the starting lineup of twenty three or

12:44

younger, it'd be really nice

12:46

to have all the savvy behind them, you

12:49

know, and where the bench can come and just

12:51

be super smart and and and kind

12:53

of raised the raise the tip, you

12:55

know, raised the umu

12:57

the boats across the board, and they

13:00

kind of don't have that anymore, like they

13:02

it really is. I mean, you look at this

13:05

bench right now, and

13:08

let's include Kevin until until

13:10

we don't because I think that people are just not

13:12

including him right now. And it's like I'm

13:15

not hearing a lot of buyout talks, so it's

13:17

like there's

13:19

not interest right now. So I think you can

13:21

pencil Kevin Love being part of the rotation right

13:23

now. So so he got to be part of the rotation. So

13:25

you look at that bench right now, it is

13:28

Rubio is gonna get minutes, Kevin's gonna

13:30

get minutes, Laurie's gonna get minutes. Who

13:34

else you know? Is it Lamar?

13:38

Is it Windler? Is a Jetty? Is it Dotson?

13:41

Um? It's It's gonna be a really interesting

13:43

thing because there isn't a lot of nohow I mean

13:45

Love actually Love being here

13:47

is actually a kind of it's

13:50

weird because the fit is a little worse

13:52

in terms of the roster construction, because you

13:55

know, as a backup defensive

13:57

group, Laurie Love is

14:00

uh to say, Seve is putting it nicely.

14:02

Yeah, you're not playing those two together as a four

14:04

five. I don't think you ever do not. I think

14:07

you slide Mobile over to the five more. I think

14:09

Mobile. Yeah, Mobile probably plays

14:11

those eighteen backup minutes and teams

14:13

a lot of minutes at the five from Obli

14:16

right now though they might let Love bang, but

14:19

but those minutes can come with Kevin

14:21

Love. Like you you can say like, I'm

14:24

not really interested in the distinction, but yeah, I got

14:26

I got it. I I think one of Alan or

14:28

Mobile needs to be on the floor at all times

14:30

next season, and whether it's with

14:32

Lori, whether it's with love Um,

14:35

that'll kind of be determined by game flow,

14:37

matchups things like that. So the point

14:39

is, like Kevin

14:42

actually, all of a sudden gets a lot

14:44

more important to the collective i

14:46

Q of the team than I

14:48

think we thought he was going to be before this

14:50

deal, you know, because he is one

14:53

of the last adults in the room. And sure we've

14:55

had, you know, some well publicized

14:57

blow ups, but also he's

15:00

only do who makes skip passes right now

15:02

and and and is that connector

15:04

on offense? He really does kind of like

15:07

I do feel moably to make those Why yes I

15:09

do too, but like, you know, like just

15:12

veteran savvy, Like I mean, I've said

15:14

a thousand times teams needs to get older, and

15:16

Kevin can be one of those people who actually

15:18

like demonstrates that kind of play

15:20

for this team. So as a veteran group,

15:23

Kevin gets more important with this steal, not

15:25

less in my opinion, which is funny because

15:27

I think everyone is kind of viewing as the final

15:30

you know, Nail and the Kevin Love coffin, and I'm like,

15:33

well, they still need a smart player and he's still

15:35

on the team and he's still Kevin freaking wat So

15:37

like and unless the calf

15:40

has gotten even worse from

15:43

last season, I think he'll be playing

15:45

for this team. And if it

15:47

is that and he has a night off, it's

15:49

probably gonna be Dean Wade Fell again, and yeah,

15:51

for sure. And like I I will

15:53

say, like, I do feel like this is probably

15:56

like this if

15:58

there's a way for Kevin to like,

16:00

like, the expectations around him are so

16:02

low at this point that like literally I think anything

16:05

you get from him is pretty nice. And

16:07

and this is a dude who put

16:09

up like thirty and twelve on the Celtics

16:12

in the year like he got us,

16:14

he got us, he got us Evan Mobly so

16:17

um, so you know, you just we

16:20

just kind of look at the larger picture here,

16:22

and the team's still weird.

16:25

The teams still weird. They needed

16:27

a wing. But here's the here's the real reason

16:29

you shouldn't completely

16:31

hate it for that reason alone, is that

16:33

it doesn't appear like there were wings on the market

16:36

that weren't super flawed. And

16:39

Reddish was a gattable for just nance And

16:41

if I had to give up nance and a first for

16:43

a guy who hasn't slashed forty and thirty yet in

16:45

his career. M I would

16:47

have lost my mind. Um

16:50

wingless old and expiring. Uh

16:53

Kyle Anderson shot twenty six the

16:55

two previous years and like spiring

16:57

contract seems like Dylan Brooks wasn't gonna

16:59

be available, um per job

17:01

Maran's Twitter timeline. So um,

17:04

you just kind of start racking up

17:06

the names and you go, oh, it's

17:08

actually pretty hard to pick up a wing at the trade deadline,

17:11

and like maybe that makes the Rubio

17:13

trade look worse in hindsight, I'm

17:16

not super concerned about it because

17:19

I don't think Torrean Torrean Prince

17:21

is like I think Calfs Twitter is

17:23

like collectively like misremembering

17:26

how good Tory and Prince was for them, Like he had

17:28

some good games and then he was hurting. Wasn't

17:30

that goods trading in other one's right, Like yeah, so

17:33

it's like that's who that guy is. So like,

17:35

you know, I I don't think that. Um,

17:38

if Jetty bounces back to his career

17:40

standards uh not last year,

17:43

Um, then you're probably fine. You're

17:45

probably he's probably like ten worse than current

17:47

Tori in Prince I mean, look at

17:49

it this way, like Damien Dotson played

17:52

almost as many minutes as Larry Nance last

17:54

year, and you're upgrading that with Rubio.

17:56

Like you look at their top ten minutes played,

17:58

it was a Choro, Sexton, Garland, Alan,

18:01

Jetty, Dean Wade, Larry

18:03

Dots, and Drummond Prince. Like

18:06

a lot of these guys are replaced

18:08

by better players, Like Rubi

18:10

is going to eat up a lot of those Dots and and probably

18:13

some point Jetty minutes, Um

18:15

you're having like those Dean Wade, Lamar

18:17

Stevens minutes. I think, yeah, let

18:20

me let me pull us up. Jetty Wade, Stevenson,

18:22

Prince played seventeen hundred

18:24

minutes at the power forward position, Larry

18:26

played just over nine hundred. Like those

18:29

minutes are getting replaced with Evan Mobley and Lori

18:31

Marken in which I think is really interesting.

18:34

And when you're talking about Lori, like

18:37

obviously, when you're committing four years

18:39

to someone that's starting twenty four, you're

18:41

talking about some upside as well,

18:43

and I think some people are kind of misrepresenting

18:46

exactly what kind of player he is. Um.

18:48

So these stats are via b Ball

18:50

Index. I want to give them credit on the front

18:53

end here, um, but they actually

18:55

had his strongest skill was

18:57

off ball movement, then perimeter shooting

18:59

in his post play. So he was

19:01

in the eighty six percentile in field

19:03

goal percentage off of cuts, and he

19:06

was doing that without a point guard, like he's played

19:08

his entire career without a point guard, and

19:10

that off ball play is going to

19:12

be one of the areas where hey, maybe

19:14

he can make a little bit of a leap with better

19:17

playmakers around him. Uh. For

19:19

effective field goal percentage in isolation,

19:21

he was in the ninety three percentile, whereas

19:24

Larry in that situation eighteen percentile.

19:27

Uh. And off of cuts, as I said, he

19:29

was eighty six, Larry was twelve percentile

19:32

off of cuts for field goal percentage. Like he

19:34

really struggled in those areas.

19:37

And then of course there's the shooting where he was ninety

19:39

three percentile in corner three point shooting,

19:41

fifty three percent from three. Uh.

19:44

He contested a ton of shots at the rim,

19:46

just was not effective at all, and at

19:48

eighty nine in contesting shots at

19:50

the rim for thirty four in

19:53

actual deterrence. So at least

19:55

he's willing to contest shots. He's just not effective

19:57

at it. So you would hope some of that would be mitigated

20:00

by Alan and Mobley in theory,

20:02

like he fits with those two guys,

20:04

and you have a rotation that makes sense

20:07

within those three. It's just tough

20:09

when you're also allocating the

20:11

resources to Kevin Love and Kevin Love's

20:13

presence is there. But I do think

20:16

that when you're looking at Lori market and having such

20:18

an effective offensive profile, it's

20:21

clear this is a big offensive

20:23

upgrade. But the net in experience

20:26

in defense and what Larry

20:28

brought to the table, there's

20:30

there is a significant downside there as

20:32

well. So this is Uh, this is the first

20:34

move that I didn't love that

20:37

the Calves made. I I see the vision,

20:39

I understand the upside, and I think it can work

20:41

lord with someone I was high on. But

20:43

this is the first real gamble with

20:45

Steaks. I feel of Kobe Altman's

20:47

tenure, Like they didn't give up a lot for

20:50

Drummond. Uh, even trading for the

20:52

Kevin Porter Jr. Pick like one

20:54

insanely heavily protected second

20:56

and three others in some cash Like there

20:59

you were trading someone like Larry Nance

21:01

that has already proven um

21:04

that is an established known commodity

21:06

for a team that needs adults in the room.

21:09

Um, this is a real gamble, so

21:11

I'm interested to see how it plays out. Yeah.

21:14

I think ultimately, if

21:17

you don't like this move, it's for a very

21:19

good reason, and that

21:21

reason is we aren't sure Lorie

21:24

Marketing is a good NBA player

21:26

yet, I want we aren't sure. We're

21:29

not sure justin the plus

21:31

minuses. Stuff isn't there, the

21:34

defense isn't there. I'm pretty

21:36

sure, but we're not. I'm not a percent

21:38

sure. I think he's I

21:41

think he's useful. Yeah,

21:43

I think he is different than useful. Yeah,

21:45

at the very least, he's a solid rotation player

21:47

for sure. I would say

21:50

the biggest thing with Laurie market and the impression

21:52

that I've got from the outside, is that he's

21:54

good. But given the skills

21:56

that he has given his physical gifts,

21:58

the way he's able to move around at that size

22:01

really well, attacking closeouts and stuff

22:03

like like, that's that's what

22:05

it is. Is that his ceiling and

22:08

like what he's thought to be is

22:10

so much higher than where it is right now. And if the Cavs

22:13

can even get him to like eight of his

22:15

ceiling that's a good contract,

22:17

like he's currently getting that Torrian Prince,

22:19

Ricky Rubio, Davis Burton's

22:22

money, and I think like he's a much

22:24

more dynamic player than Davis Burton's

22:26

Like, don't get me wrong, he actually does things other

22:29

than catch up shoot. So for

22:31

for that reason, like I I understand

22:33

it, I get the process. I just

22:35

think, but I think I think it

22:37

would be unfair to not represent

22:40

why other people don't like it, which is there.

22:43

This is a guy who leaves a lot of meat on the bone. And

22:45

even with Jared Allen, I don't

22:47

think Jared Allen is a twenty million a year

22:50

player right now. Um, I think that

22:52

the Calves locked him up to a long deal

22:54

because he's twenty three freaking years old

22:57

and how young he is and

23:00

and is growing in

23:02

an arc that will say, by the

23:04

middle of this deal, we're thrilled with it, and by

23:06

end of this deal we're ecstatic about it. There

23:08

there, they paid him a little bit on projection.

23:11

Um, it's not like he's not good now, but they're

23:13

paying on projection I think market

23:16

and they're doing that even more. They're basically

23:19

this contract to me is saying, hey, Chicago

23:22

we think he's screwed up with this guy. Yeah,

23:24

we think that you have messed

23:27

with his development. We think that

23:29

you didn't keep him healthy. We think

23:31

you didn't give him good coaching, you did not give

23:33

point guard. Ever, we think you never gave him

23:35

a point guard. And we got all those

23:37

things. That's what we think about our organization.

23:41

So we're going to turn this guy into

23:44

a player. Where everyone's like, oh my god, I

23:46

can't believe they only got him for sixteen million.

23:48

And I think the reason that you should that

23:51

is a little nerve racking is

23:53

that the Cador are spending a lot

23:55

on spec right now at those

23:57

forward positions, like on like

23:59

the hope that they're going to end up getting good value

24:02

deals, you know, and that is kind of what you do if you're

24:04

the team like the Calves. But like they're

24:06

not like locking up guys to like any of

24:08

these like four years, thirteen

24:11

million, Like it's all like there there's

24:13

been a lot of money right now on and

24:15

and and spending flexibility. And

24:18

you know, I was listening to Fadors pod and

24:20

he was kind of talking about like, you know, you don't

24:22

have to stick with these guys. You can package them, and I'm

24:24

like, you can't package more than two

24:26

of them, because it's you're up

24:28

to like thirty five thirty seven million pretty

24:30

quick with any of these names, and there

24:32

aren't that many players that actually make that much,

24:35

um. So, like I think that's the

24:37

reason I'm not like it. I do think

24:39

that if you if

24:42

you can accept the fact that the Larry

24:44

market wasn't as robust

24:47

as it maybe was mid year, and if

24:49

it was robust, it was for picks, which I don't

24:51

really think the Calves should be in the market

24:53

for. Like the picks

24:55

don't come with the upside of what we're

24:58

saying here, whereas hey, the often got

25:00

better, Like there's a little bigh

25:02

ceiling and it's just too too far

25:04

out, you know, Like the Calves aren't trying to be

25:06

the in the pick business anymore, um,

25:09

at least as far as I can tell. So it's

25:11

like, when you realize that the player

25:14

for player market was not good, it's basically comes

25:16

down to do you like Lori marking

25:18

enough to pay him sixteen million

25:20

a year to be your six man? And

25:23

I didn't like it when it happened.

25:26

The more I've thought about it, the more I've warmed to it,

25:29

um, but he's gonna have to be

25:31

better than what he's been. And

25:33

that is a little bit of a scary proposition

25:36

if you're a Cavs fan. That's going, well,

25:38

I just like, I just traded a guy.

25:40

I know. It's pretty good and maybe is beat

25:43

up a little more than you'd like in Larry, but it's not

25:45

like lower has been a picture of health either,

25:47

by the way, um, And it's like,

25:50

I, if I'm trying to get better in

25:53

this, I want to raise this team ceiling. It's

25:55

you know, it's funny. I was just thinking about this. Is

25:58

Larry's whole value to an NBA team

26:01

is that he is more than the some of his parts, right,

26:05

And what's funny about this trade to me is

26:08

the Calves are actually kind of betting that

26:10

Lorie will be more than the some of his parts,

26:12

which has never been the case in his career, but

26:15

because of their specific roster construction,

26:18

they're basically betting, Hey, we think

26:20

that a guy who can bomb seven threes

26:22

a game as

26:24

as a seven footer will be the

26:26

tide that raises all boats for us. And

26:30

it's an interesting bet, you know, I I'm

26:35

I started out hating it. I

26:37

hate it. I don't hate it anymore, but

26:39

I don't know if I love it. I think I gotta

26:41

see it. I gotta see I gotta see the guy on

26:44

the floor. I like watching him play,

26:46

I do. I think he's The finishing

26:48

numbers aren't there, but the finishing attempts

26:51

are interesting to me. The way he kind of can

26:53

put the ball on the floor and attack closeouts

26:55

like a lot of dudes can't do that. That

26:58

off ball activity and finding passing and

27:01

catching shooting on the move as a big is

27:03

really hard, Like where he he'll

27:06

he'll curl in hell, he'll

27:08

catch the call ball of a curl and fire

27:10

um with his legs under hunt a lot of like

27:13

a lot of these stretch bigs can really

27:15

only do it from a stationary catch and shoot

27:18

um position. So he's got all these tantilizing

27:20

skills and the numbers

27:22

just don't really support it yet in terms

27:25

of like leading to winning basketball,

27:27

but um, you know, the

27:30

pieces are interesting to me there. Um.

27:32

I liked Lorie early in his career. I've

27:34

liked him last as he's gotten older, because he's

27:36

just kind of gotten beat up and it's not been working very

27:38

well over there in Chicago. But new

27:40

scenery can mean a lot, Yeah,

27:43

it can. And and what I like about it

27:46

is it is an investment in the guys

27:48

you've already invested in in Mobilian

27:50

Allen, because I do think he's

27:52

going to make things easier, especially Alan,

27:55

Like Alan is going to have some stretches on

27:57

the offense this year where we're like, come

28:00

on, man, because the jumper is not there yet.

28:02

He's gonna get It's not like he's gonna have a strength advantage

28:05

against NBA four's uh.

28:07

And the spacing is going to kind of stink at times

28:09

with that starting lineup. That's just the way it is. Yeah,

28:12

yeah, and Lori will

28:14

be like that like release valve. Like when Lorie

28:16

comes in and they're running Lori

28:18

at mobile lineups at the four five, we'll

28:22

just all of a sudden be like, oh

28:25

okay, yeah, yeah, let's get this

28:27

guy a little room to play. And the

28:29

other part of it, too, is one

28:32

like it's an investment in Garland and Sexton

28:34

too, like they haven't consistently had

28:36

that pick and pop presence. I mean, Sexton got

28:39

is basically that that full year with

28:41

love uh two years ago when he was healthy,

28:43

but Garland wasn't really himself and he

28:45

didn't get to play with Love much last year outside

28:48

of April, where once again the offense

28:50

was a lot better. They were getting threes up. You're

28:52

gonna learn more about JB. Bickerstaff, like

28:55

we've we've talked about is it personnel or

28:57

is it scheme? Like um,

29:00

Now that you actually have a weapon that's going to come

29:02

off of Curls, that he is a

29:04

catch and shoot guy that can do a whole bunch

29:06

of things, is there going to be more imagination

29:08

shown in the offense. So I think

29:10

it's going to be instructive in a lot of

29:12

ways, and we're going to actually learn some

29:15

very valuable, useful things

29:17

because of his presence that we wouldn't have

29:19

been able to do. If it's Larry shooting

29:22

two threes at thirty six percent of

29:24

a game, right like this guy that

29:26

can actually get the volume up there and

29:28

that may benefit from the guard play

29:30

that the Calves have. That's a really

29:33

really interesting investment and it's going to

29:35

be really really instructive as you kind

29:37

of figure out how you want to build

29:39

with this young core. I think this is

29:41

a great great, great point justin that,

29:44

Um, it's a bit of a chicken

29:46

or the egg thing with JB's offense right now, because

29:49

it was not I mean, it was one of the least imaginative

29:51

in the league. And is

29:54

it because the personnel wasn't good

29:56

enough or old enough to run

29:59

good stuff? Or is it because j

30:01

B as a weak spot as a coach

30:03

right now? And I think that from

30:07

a personal standpoint, he has much better equipped

30:10

to do some interesting stuff than he was last

30:12

year. Yeah, no,

30:14

absolutely, And I'm I'm just really

30:17

interested because like, if Lori's

30:19

out there bombing threes and his to

30:22

thirty minutes a game, whatever he ends

30:24

up playing, I'd kind of expect him

30:26

and Rubio to play twenty five minutes

30:28

each off the bench if I had to guess.

30:31

Um, But if he's bombing away

30:33

and Sexon and Garland are taking more threes

30:35

and a cooro at least becomes like a

30:37

passible catch and shoot guy, Like, what

30:40

is this offense going to look like? And I think

30:43

for a young team, and young teams will

30:45

always make mistakes on the defensive end. Investing

30:48

in the offense and actually giving these guards

30:50

tools to work with it and spacing. It's

30:53

going to make a real big difference and obviously

30:56

the pressure points and the concern is

30:59

you're now basic asking Evan Mobiley

31:01

to do what you would want Larry to

31:03

do, which is that playmaking out

31:05

the high post to cover for guys. Defensively,

31:08

Larry wasn't necessarily a point of attack

31:10

guy, but he was really good off ball. I don't

31:12

think Mobile is going to be a great off ball help

31:14

defender. That's probably the week spot in his

31:16

defensive game right now. But he's

31:19

a little better at point of attack. So there's

31:21

a lot of changes that are being made. Um,

31:23

but I do feel better about the offense than

31:26

I did before this trade happened. I do

31:28

think this is unquestionably

31:31

an upgrade on the offensive end of the floor.

31:34

It's just going to be can I can I

31:36

can I say one other thing that like is

31:38

a little bit I don't know if it's a bummer, but

31:40

it's just a change. I think

31:43

we kind of were starting to wrap our heads are on active

31:45

like this is gonna be a team that kind

31:47

of starts to need to win with his defense. Its

31:49

defense like between Nance

31:52

Mobile Alan Akro,

31:54

like that front court was looking really really stout

31:56

there. Yeah, it looks to hell have a lot less

31:58

stout on defense. This is gonn have to be a team

32:00

that wins by being solid on

32:03

both ends. Now, I I it

32:05

is going to need to be both ends. I don't

32:07

know how much of a defensive drop off

32:09

it is from last year, just because

32:13

he played so few games and then the

32:15

second half of the year like he was never

32:18

right. Yeah, but Lamar and Dean

32:20

are actually pretty capable defenders. I

32:23

would expect Mobile to be better, and like that's

32:25

going to be the big question. And does Rubio

32:27

being there instead of Damian Dotson and broaderick

32:29

comments at the point of attack, but even then,

32:31

but even then, justin you're going from

32:34

like I thought their defensive play at the back of five

32:37

was pretty good last year. You know, I thought Hardenstein

32:39

did pretty well. I thought Jay did well, much

32:42

better than I thought he would. And like, now

32:44

you're pretty much playing mostly

32:47

a three week rotation with some Kevin sprinkled

32:49

in on nights. He's up for it. Yeah,

32:52

and two of those dudes

32:54

are Kevin Love and Laurie marking it and one of them

32:56

is a rookie. Ye, that's what I'm saying. I

32:59

think I think that the

33:01

defensive floor is definitely lower

33:04

on this team than it was before um

33:07

we had had than it was heading into

33:09

this season after the draft. Yeah

33:12

no, I thought there was a road to them

33:15

kind of just being that try hard team

33:17

that just just locked people

33:19

down on defense. And it's still there, especially

33:21

in that starting lineup. But there's a lot more

33:25

holes in the damned to plug now. And that's

33:27

okay, because you would should argue

33:29

that you've got enough back on offense to make it functional.

33:32

But it's it's just worth noting that this

33:35

team might have moved a

33:37

little bit away from

33:39

at least an easily identify Elbowl identity

33:43

and path to go towards. Maybe

33:45

that's still JB's plan, Like hey,

33:47

we're Lori, We're gonna turn you into a serviceable defender,

33:50

but you know we we haven't seen that yet.

33:52

Yeah no. And I think it's balancing

33:55

the attack right Like now it's going to be a little more of

33:57

a mixing offensive defense, And I

33:59

mean you want an entertaining product

34:02

like some of that like factors in for me

34:04

where I get some excitement now seeing okay,

34:06

Like I can see if Garland's

34:09

making the leap that I expect, and Sexton

34:11

is going to get better, Like it's gonna

34:13

be pretty fun. There's gonna be moments where this offense

34:16

is really clicking next year and it looks

34:18

like a lot of fun. Then there's gonna be nights where the

34:20

inexperience is really really showing.

34:22

That average age of like

34:24

their top six guys in the rotation is

34:27

basically like twenty one twenty two, Like that's

34:29

that's gonna be a really interesting thing. But I

34:32

mean they obviously losing

34:35

Larry Hurts like that. That's the one part

34:37

that is in fun. This is a business. Um.

34:40

I think personally, I take some

34:42

comfort reading his letter that he

34:44

wrote in Cleveland dot com today talking about

34:46

Hey, but this was a

34:49

collaboration. It was a joint effort. I

34:51

came to Kobe and I like, I understand

34:53

where he's coming from there, because you

34:56

didn't really have an opportunity to be a

34:58

starter here in Cleveland, Like you're behind.

35:00

Kevin is so good that it's worth

35:02

it for him, you know, yeah, it's

35:05

and then all of a sudden, Evan Mobile gets drafted

35:07

and Okay, he's probably the long term four.

35:10

So your role is probably

35:12

a little diminished there to some extent, and

35:15

you're going to be twenty nine. Like

35:17

you, you want to compete. You want to make the most

35:20

of your best years when you're healthy, especially

35:22

when you have an injury concerns. So I understand

35:24

it for both sides. Uh, this is certainly

35:26

a gamble for the Calves. We'll see if they

35:28

can address the concerns on the wing. Uh.

35:30

That's that's probably my biggest thing. Like I think

35:33

the big man rotation is going to work out. I

35:35

just have concerns about how many

35:38

bolts they have left in the chamber to to go out

35:40

there and add a wing and maybe

35:42

you're stuck kind of hoping that

35:44

those twenty minutes that a Coro

35:47

isn't playing at the three, that Dylan

35:49

Windler, who was serviceable at one point last

35:51

season, or Jeti Osmond can kind of return

35:53

to form to some extent. Like we're not talking about a

35:55

ton of minutes. I think he got thirty minutes

35:58

to fill per game. That's my That

36:00

is my theory, because you got about twenty in the three

36:02

unless you play Isaac another thirty eight

36:04

minutes of game or whatever. And

36:07

I don't want to turn the guy into lu all day and

36:09

then you got eight to ten

36:12

at the one and two at the at the two, I

36:14

think too, Yeah, I I

36:16

think I I kind of figured it out that

36:18

if Garland and Sexon are playing thirty two

36:20

and Rubio's playing twenty five, it would be seven

36:22

minutes at the two. So if a coral

36:24

plays, if Coral plays

36:27

those seven minutes there and twenty five

36:29

at the three, then that leaves twenty

36:31

three minutes, right, Yeah, I

36:34

don't know. I think I think in practice it's

36:36

gonna be closer to thirty. I think those numbers

36:38

are maybe a little high. And

36:41

again they're going to vary on a night to night basis,

36:43

Like these guys are going to have to go out there Internet, and what

36:45

if someone gets in val trouble, you know, like what

36:47

if someone gets banged up? Uh, Like

36:49

their margin for air on those spots is very

36:52

very low right now, but it does seem like just

36:54

no one's no one's selling, you

36:56

know, like, man, could you imagine if the

36:58

calves are gotten grace now and for two secons and send

37:00

some flaweds some like that

37:02

would feel great, you know, And that's not even

37:04

like an elite play or anything, but like you

37:07

they need innings eaters. Man, No,

37:10

I agreed, like just a more established

37:12

option that would would make me feel more comfortable

37:14

because I can't shake man. I know

37:17

everyone's just done done with Jetty

37:20

and frustrated after I mean,

37:22

by far, the worst season his career. But I can't

37:25

help but think, why are we

37:27

so sure that's the new norm for him?

37:30

Yeah? Because I was fine with him

37:32

the year before. He was he very solid,

37:35

like he was serviceable. If he wasn't great,

37:37

but he was serviceable, and that's what the calves need

37:39

in these So I'm just not

37:41

comfortable like counting on either he

37:44

or but I can see the path for

37:46

both of those guys having an impact. I'm

37:48

not saying I'm comfortable with it. I'd like them

37:50

to keep chasing, but like, I

37:53

think the assumption is that they will

37:55

get very very bad play in the wing, and

37:58

I think that there's a chance it is serviceable.

38:01

Yeah, I think so too, And I think

38:04

it is a little easier when you do

38:06

have Laurie right, like in that second unit,

38:08

like you said, you could play Lamar Stevens

38:10

if those guys aren't giving you what you're hoping

38:13

and you're at least getting defense with him

38:15

right, So there are a lot

38:17

of questions that remain. This is very

38:19

very interesting. This is going to be one of those defining

38:22

moves of Kobe Altman's career. So we'll

38:24

we'll see how this plays out. I'm

38:27

I'm, I've got nervous energy. I

38:29

I don't know how this is going to go. I

38:31

see the path too working, I see the concerns.

38:33

I have some of those concerns. Um,

38:36

but I do like that the offensive

38:39

ceiling has been raised. And I

38:41

mean in a lot of ways, Larry was kind

38:43

of a luxury when when it

38:45

comes to Okay, if you're already invested

38:47

in Alan Mobile, the

38:50

things that Larry is going to bring to the table that playmaking,

38:53

like, you want to give those reps to Mobile even though he's

38:55

going to make more mistakes, because that's your long

38:57

term investment. So I I under

39:00

send the logic behind it. It's just gonna be very

39:02

interesting to see how this plays out. Any

39:04

more final thoughts before we wrap this sing up? Carter

39:07

uh No, I think uh I'm

39:09

excited to see Laurie. That's that is gonna be

39:11

fun. Is that like almost

39:14

every second on the court, there's gonna be a

39:16

young player to two to three

39:18

young players that were pretty excited about and like,

39:23

our intellectual curiosity is going to

39:25

be like it will.

39:27

There won't be a lot of games where there's nothing

39:30

for me to watch, even if things aren't

39:32

going well early on, it's like,

39:34

how does LORI look? How does how is Darius?

39:37

Like how's Calm look? And it's like there's just

39:39

a lot of intellectual curiosity I

39:41

have around this team right now. Yeah, make

39:43

me too. This is going

39:45

to be one of the most interesting seasons ever.

39:47

This is a lot of young talent

39:49

and we're going to see how they click. Uh, it's

39:52

gonna be really really interesting to see who

39:54

gets used how they get used. I just

39:56

think now there's more kind of tools

39:59

in j being Cristats belt and we'll

40:01

we'll see how he uses them. But I want

40:03

to thank all of our listeners for supporting

40:05

the podcast. I'm sure you guys are as fascinated

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with how this is all going to work out as we are. If

40:10

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a rating we review, subscribe and subscribe,

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resubscribe and help cook those books. If

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chat. You can send a screenshot that reviewed to Chase

40:21

down pot at gmail dot com. However, you

40:23

just to support us, we really do appreciate it.

40:26

Make sure you guys are staying safe out there, and until next

40:28

time, got