0:11

You're listening to the Buck Sexton Show

0:13

podcast. Make sure you subscribe to the

0:15

podcast on the iHeartRadio app or

0:18

wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome

0:20

to the Buck Brief. Everybody on this episode our friend

0:22

Oron McIntyre, host of the

0:25

Orton McIntyre Show at the Blaze and now

0:27

author of his latest book,

0:29

The Total State. It

0:32

is total and it is a state. He's gonna talk to us

0:34

about it. What's going on?

0:35

Oron? Hey man, thanks for having me.

0:38

So total State? Walk

0:41

me through this one feels like these

0:43

days we talk about liberty

0:45

and constitutional rights and

0:47

the system in charge treats that all like it's

0:49

a suggestion, if not a joke. What is the total

0:52

State?

0:53

Yeah? Exactly, man, I like you, I probably

0:55

you know. I grew up listening to talk radio

0:58

as kind of a standard issue

1:01

talk radio Republican, and

1:03

then twenty twenty happened and

1:06

we all got locked in our houses. We couldn't

1:08

go to church, we couldn't go to work, you

1:10

couldn't go outside. And

1:13

then everything happened with BLM, the

1:15

riots, the election, and

1:18

I just looked around and I was like, what happened

1:20

all that liberty? Right? I was told the Constitution

1:22

was going to stand in the way of all this stuff. We were

1:24

going to have this separation of powers

1:26

and everything that was going to stop the government. When

1:28

tyranny came and nothing

1:31

happened, and I was kind of blown away, And

1:33

so the Total State the book is really

1:36

my attempt to kind of document that

1:38

crisis and my faith of like the

1:41

Constitution, the American system,

1:43

and what went on, like I think a lot of people had

1:45

during that time. And so I walked

1:47

through this journey of how liberal

1:50

democracies around the world kind of randomly

1:53

became tyrannys in the year twenty twenty.

1:56

You know, there's that Fukuyama

1:59

End of History essay, which I think started out

2:01

as or it was an essay in Foreign Affairs.

2:03

Is also a longer version of it that's sold

2:05

the thinking book form, or maybe that maybe

2:08

the essays just sold as was bo camera, but

2:10

it's Fugiyama End of History. It's like democracy

2:12

is basically one world. What if

2:14

we're at the end of liberty, meaning what if

2:16

we're at a place where, you know, America

2:19

is the only country that I can think of where there's

2:21

any real sense of get

2:24

off my law and government, leave me alone. I'm

2:26

going to keep my guns. And there

2:29

are some lines you shall not cross. I

2:31

think the I think some of those lines were crossed your

2:33

point in twenty twenty and beyond during COVID

2:35

pandemic. But we're

2:37

the outlier. So if we're not really

2:40

free, is anybody really free? As in, does

2:42

everybody just want a total state now? And they

2:44

don't know it yet.

2:46

Yeah, the things that happened in America

2:48

were egregious, but you're right that here

2:50

we got off better than most places. It was

2:53

even more insane in places like Canada

2:55

and Australia. And Fukiyama's

2:58

thesis in the end of history was

3:00

that liberal democracy and capitalism

3:03

had kind of solved the government question,

3:05

right, the USSR had collapsed. All

3:07

meaningful opposition to the

3:10

ideas of America and the wider

3:12

West was over, and so the only

3:14

question was how much better

3:16

would we get at democracy? How much better

3:18

would we get at capitalism? History

3:21

was over and now was just about perfecting

3:23

the institutions that had proven

3:25

to be the best. But what we saw,

3:27

like you said in twenty twenty, was that actually

3:30

that battle isn't over. In that many

3:32

people who thought they lived under this system

3:35

of freedom and rights actually

3:37

found themselves snapping right

3:39

into line when the jack boots came.

3:41

And so, as you said, the question really

3:43

becomes what is in charge

3:45

if it isn't this liberal democracy

3:48

that we believe in. And the answer I come

3:50

to in the total state is that

3:52

actually we've all been conquered by

3:54

system called managerialism,

3:57

and that managerialism manifested

3:59

itself differently in say, communist

4:01

Russia than it did in the United States,

4:03

but it slowly come to dominate all

4:06

of the governments in the modern world.

4:09

Tell me more about managerialism. That's an interesting

4:11

concept.

4:12

I mean, yeah, sorry,

4:15

yeah. James Burnham is a guy

4:17

who many people might be familiar

4:19

with. He's actually one of the people, along with William

4:21

F. Buckley, who started the National Review,

4:24

but many people forget that his

4:26

most influential book was about the Managerial

4:29

Revolution. His thesis

4:31

was that while we looked at these different

4:33

governments communism, fascism,

4:36

liberal democracy, actually all

4:38

of the governments in the modern

4:40

world at the time he was writing, which was

4:42

the nineteen forties, kind of fell under

4:45

the same system, which was this idea of

4:47

managerialism where the power

4:49

of the democracy the people

4:52

actually needed to be managed and needed

4:54

to be channeled through experts,

4:56

Experts who were good at mass

4:59

consumption, mass production, transportation,

5:01

communication, armed

5:04

forces. Everything had to be funneled

5:06

through these large managerial bureaucracies,

5:09

and so we did have different flavors

5:11

of managerialism. It came

5:14

to dominate all of these different

5:16

countries because if you wanted to become

5:18

modern, if you wanted to be able to mass produce

5:20

things, distribute things, scale up

5:22

your society, and go ahead

5:24

and create larger institutions, you needed

5:27

to deploy the expertise of managers.

5:29

And these managers created reliable

5:31

systems that we depended on to

5:33

deliver the food and the entertainment

5:36

and everything else that we now think

5:38

of is kind of ubiquitous in our society.

5:41

And those forms have particular

5:43

things that they produce, particular behaviors

5:45

that they favor. And that's why

5:48

even though you would think that communist China

5:50

and I don't know, the government of the United

5:53

States should have different goals.

5:55

They say they have different ideological

5:58

structures, but we're seeing that they're

6:00

getting closer and closer together

6:02

at every step. And the reason why

6:04

is that they're both embracing this idea

6:06

of managerialism.

6:09

What freedoms do we really have still in this country?

6:11

I mean, we we've run the experiment.

6:14

We ran kind of the stress test with

6:16

COVID where you

6:19

don't actually have the freedom to worship right because

6:21

you know, somebody could sneeze on you and then

6:23

everyone dies because COVID h. So

6:26

you didn't have the freedom to go to church in agog, mosque,

6:29

wherever, you know, temple, whatever

6:31

religion you are, You don't have the freedom of religion.

6:34

Clearly don't have freedom of speech because we have the

6:36

government colluding with big tech to shut people

6:38

down these days.

6:41

You know, whether they say it's hate speech or

6:43

it's disinformation or just wrong think,

6:46

they will use government and private sector

6:48

mechanisms to shut you down and do those

6:50

in conjunction and act like somehow that's not just

6:53

using agency of the

6:55

private sector for government means.

6:58

And I mean I go down the list, right, I mean,

7:00

the right to bear arms kind of sort of depends

7:03

where you are, do you know what I'm saying? Like

7:05

it feels these days that we talk about the Land of the

7:07

Free, the home of the brave. Yeah, we got a lot of brave people

7:09

still, But are we free. I don't

7:11

know. I increasingly feel like we

7:14

tell ourselves that we're free. And you

7:16

can say that to yourself even if you, let's say,

7:18

own your house outright, but

7:20

you got to rent it from the government every year in pay taxes.

7:22

Do you know what I'm saying? Like, what exactly

7:24

can you do where you

7:27

are actually free?

7:29

Yeah? Not much anymore? Right, The state has grown

7:31

again to this massive size and this level

7:34

of intrusion that it feels like it controls

7:36

every aspect. And you're right to point

7:38

out the collusion between the public

7:41

and the private sector. One of the things

7:43

we tend to pride ourselves about in the United

7:45

States is this idea of the division

7:48

between the state and the private

7:50

sector. And we know that the Bill of Rights

7:52

and constitutional limitations primarily

7:54

pertain to the government itself.

7:57

That's where all of these careful restrictions

8:00

that the founders built in are supposed to

8:02

be applied. However, what the

8:04

government has figured out is really

8:06

that it can go ahead and collude with the private

8:08

sector. And the private sector is happy to do

8:10

this because it gives them additional power

8:13

and influence. It tends to give them monopolies

8:15

and the different areas that they run things. And

8:17

so they go ahead and weave this pattern

8:20

together of these different managerial bureaucracies

8:22

and apparatuses. And this is why we see

8:24

a revolving door between corporations,

8:27

government entities, non government

8:30

entities all working together. The

8:32

same personnel tend to shift from one

8:34

to the other. They're all connected, and the

8:36

reason is that they're all working in a similar

8:39

direction. I don't think there's one large

8:41

over arching conspiracy

8:43

between these people where they kind of

8:45

hand down their orders from some kind of

8:48

Buildeberg cheat

8:50

sheet. However, I do think they all

8:52

share the same value

8:54

set, which is kind of the progressive morality

8:57

that they got from the institutions

9:00

that they all tended when they we were young, which was college.

9:02

And this serves as kind of the church of

9:05

the progressive total state, which

9:07

gives them all kind of the marching orders,

9:10

the moral basis on which they're going to make their depinion

9:12

their decisions. And then when they start

9:14

working, they kind of just naturally network

9:16

and work together or as the same goal.

9:18

Though, as we can see from things like the Twitter fires

9:21

files, that collusion is getting more and

9:23

more explicit in its nature.

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are in Do

10:25

people think that they want a

10:28

much bigger state than they realize? Or rather,

10:30

do people want a much bigger state than they think?

10:32

That's why I meant to ask that question, as in, we're

10:35

thirty four trillion dollars in debt. Everything,

10:37

Oh my gosh, the debt's so bad, and

10:39

Republicans will say, oh, the debts and it is right. I mean,

10:42

just as a function of numbers, you

10:44

look at what interest payments look like. It's

10:46

effectively intergenerational theft that's

10:48

going on. But put that aside for a second.

10:50

Anytime you talk to Republican about this, you say yeah,

10:52

they say it's terrible. I say, oh, I agree, it's terrible. They

10:54

go, well, maybe

10:57

we should do something about it. And then we say,

10:59

let's cut something. And if you want

11:01

to cut anything, that would be meaningful to

11:03

the trillion dollars extra we're spending each year

11:05

now give or take, to add to the thirty four trillion

11:07

dollars we're already in debt. You know what happens,

11:09

people scream and

11:12

freak out at you on the right. So

11:15

do we just do we all want a bigger government than we're

11:17

willing to admit. Is that where things are now I start

11:19

to get a little a little cynical about

11:21

this.

11:23

Well, I think what it is is really the incentive structure

11:25

of democracy. In democracy,

11:27

let's be really clear, vote

11:29

buying is the most effective strategy.

11:32

Nobody wants to vote for rosterity mode.

11:34

Nobody wants to vote for fiscal responsibility.

11:37

We all like it in theory. But as long

11:39

as we can go ahead and hand that buck down

11:43

to the next generation, like you said, we can go ahead

11:45

and pass it down and do this

11:47

intergenerational theft, then we don't

11:49

really notice. The truth is that if

11:51

people have the option to go ahead

11:53

and choose whether to get

11:57

the money now and worry about the

11:59

consequences later, they're almost always going

12:01

to do that, especially in a democracy where

12:03

we kind of get to collectively hand that responsibility

12:06

over. Maybe you wouldn't do that individually, maybe

12:08

you wouldn't go ahead and get a payday loan as

12:10

an individual, but as a massive

12:13

people, yeah, we do that over and over

12:15

again. And Alexis to Tokville warned

12:17

us about this when he observed

12:19

the beginnings of democracy in America He said

12:22

that as soon as the people can go ahead and figure out

12:24

that the convote themselves money, you're

12:26

in a lot of problems because that

12:29

will always be the way that people choose

12:31

to go. Especially as we go ahead

12:33

and remove that connection to the consequences,

12:36

Fewer and fewer people in the United States effectively

12:38

pay access, so they don't really

12:40

feel that burden. It's spread

12:43

across a smaller and smaller handful of

12:45

property owners, and that has its own problems.

12:47

It means that the individual is less invested

12:49

in the country that they're supposed to be paying

12:52

for.

12:53

It just feels like the situation doesn't

12:56

improve at

12:58

all. Right, it continues to get like the state.

13:02

We're always on defense against the encroachments

13:04

of the state. So I assume in the book, which

13:07

I have a copy of, and I will read, uh,

13:09

you get in to some of the how

13:11

do we at least start to you know, I always

13:13

tell everybody if you're looking at a conservative political

13:16

book, the last chapter

13:18

is usually you know, how do we turn this around?

13:20

Everybody get more involved, like get involved

13:22

in your school board. Right, okay, fine,

13:25

how do we start to turn the trajectory in the other direction?

13:27

It's going to take out. There's a long term project.

13:29

We've been getting our butts kicked on the right

13:32

in terms of the encroachment of the state for

13:34

a long time, in part because the

13:37

left is doing it and we do it too. We just think

13:39

we do it for better reasons.

13:42

Yeah, I have a

13:44

maybe a less hopeful last chapter

13:46

on this one. I do think there are steps

13:48

that we can take, but I think we are going through a process.

13:51

I think that the things that are happening to us are

13:53

actually part of a larger movement

13:56

that's happening to all societies, which is

13:58

the scaling up and massification.

14:00

I don't think countries were meant to grow into

14:03

these giant, world spanning empires.

14:05

I don't think everything can be connected

14:07

this way. I don't think that we can go ahead and spread

14:10

out our responsibilities as individuals

14:13

into a million different organizations

14:16

and expect them to continue to function. The

14:18

truth is that we embrace the total state

14:20

because it took responsibility off

14:22

of our shoulders. We no longer have to

14:24

care for our parents, We no longer have to educate

14:27

our children. We no longer have to take

14:29

care of the person next to us. We

14:31

don't have to care about our community because

14:33

eventually we can go ahead and hand that power

14:35

over to the state. And as much as we might

14:38

whine about that as conservatives,

14:40

really, in truth, most of us are not willing

14:42

to take on that individual responsibility.

14:44

John Adams told us who the Constitution

14:47

was there to govern. It was there to govern a moral

14:49

and religious people, and it was inadequate

14:51

to govern any other. Well, now we're the

14:54

other, and the Constitution is

14:56

not governing us well because we are

14:58

not virtuous enough to take on the

15:00

responsibilities of the Constitution.

15:02

So we're screwed. Basically. Good to know. I'm

15:04

not the only one who thinks us. I mean, people keep asking

15:06

me like, what's the and I always say, you know, in the long

15:08

run, we're all dead. Got to enjoy your life

15:10

as much as you can and do the best stuff you can.

15:12

But if you're worried about the trajectory

15:15

of the country, history is comforting. It's for

15:17

me at least, like being somebody who enjoys

15:19

reading history. It's comforting because you get to learn

15:21

about what's happened before, and everyone's been through

15:23

everything in some way or another, and people have

15:25

been through much worse than any of us. But also everybody

15:28

who's come before us has died, and nobody

15:30

even really remembers or cares all that much at the end

15:32

of the day, and then you start to feel a little nihilistic

15:34

about things. So I

15:36

feel like, if you're gonna worry about the American Empire

15:39

and its future, you know, we'll do the best we can.

15:41

But quite honestly, I don't know. I don't

15:43

know how this thing is going to turn out at this point. You know, most

15:45

great empires fall. Look a look at the show.

15:47

Do you ever watch The Crown?

15:50

I have not seen that one.

15:51

Now, Oh, okay, it's funny because people

15:53

love the show. It's really just a very

15:56

well shot, like visually pleasing,

15:59

long slow death of

16:01

Great Britain. Like that's what sure from from the end

16:03

of World War two to basically close

16:06

to modern day or you know, maybe it stops. I don't know, I haven't finished

16:08

it yet, but twenty years ago or something, think and

16:11

you're just watching Great Britain become a second rate

16:13

power that is becoming

16:16

obsolete and like there's

16:18

nothing anyone. It's kind of like, oh, well, here we are.

16:20

It's getting just getting less wealthy and less

16:22

influential every year. I feel like, Eh,

16:25

it happens.

16:27

Yeah. The one thing to remember is that

16:29

every civilization does have its

16:31

moments. It rises, it gains

16:34

in greatness, and then eventually it does decline.

16:37

Now, hopefully we're not in that situation.

16:39

The Roman Republic did in but the

16:41

Roman Empire rose to greatness and continued

16:43

for a very long time. I don't

16:46

want to say that's where we're at. I'm not sure exactly

16:48

you know, how our history will

16:50

unfold, what the morphology of our civilization

16:53

will be. But I think we do need to recognize

16:55

that we are in a turning point. We do have kind

16:58

of an epochal change that is

17:00

happening in society, and one

17:02

thing we can do is to go ahead and

17:04

assume personal responsibility in

17:06

our own lives and our own communities

17:09

that can at least sheltered to some extent from

17:11

whatever comes next. See.

17:12

I have a theory about this as well, about the personal

17:14

part of that. I want to come back to it and throw it your way.

17:17

Total State is the book, or as

17:19

you can tell a super smart guy, so get your

17:21

copy of it. But you

17:23

know, I keep hearing about people that are like, oh, well, why should

17:25

I have gold and silver. I have gold and silver at home. Gold

17:28

and silver talking about history before over history,

17:30

you see, it maintains value. It's store of

17:32

value. And when things get really

17:34

tough financially, when big

17:36

changes come economically, precious

17:39

metals do very well. Here's

17:41

why you can have precious metal, to have tangible

17:43

currency on hand. It's just part of a bug

17:45

out plant or to whether

17:48

the storm, so to speak of a real

17:50

financial calamity, Portfolio

17:53

diversification, hedge against inflation, store

17:56

of value, gold increases

17:59

over time. There's all these different reasons why

18:01

you can have gold and silver on hand. I'm not saying, you know,

18:03

pile everything you have into these things, that's crazy.

18:05

It's have an appropriate amount

18:07

on hand for your portfolio. Global

18:11

events just show you how quickly instability can spiral

18:13

out of control. But there are countries

18:15

out there, countries, nation states that are hoarding

18:18

gold and silver and buying more and more of it.

18:20

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18:22

real accuracy, but you can

18:25

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18:27

any uncertainty. The Oxford

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18:31

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the numbers eight three three nine

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nine five gold eight three three nine nine

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to five g O l D eight three three

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nine nine to five gold or

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in. So, you know, people become all

18:51

obsessed on the left with climate change.

18:53

I mean, I've been given the right a hard time here, but at least

18:55

the right lives in reality, right, I mean, you know, we all

18:57

have our weaknesses, like I eat too much chocolate,

19:00

Like people don't ever want to change medicare, Like

19:02

I understand right like this, but that

19:04

that's those are real things. The left

19:06

will get all upset about climate change and

19:08

they'll say I can't have kids because or

19:10

I shouldn't have children because you know, climate change

19:12

footprint and all this sort of stuff. But to me,

19:15

people like that, people like to wallow

19:18

in. Oh, massive

19:20

events are going against me. Everything

19:22

is falling apart, so therefore it

19:24

doesn't matter that I'm personally a mess

19:26

and like, don't take care of my people and don't take

19:29

care of myself. And I feel like that's one

19:31

of the root fallacies we have in America.

19:33

These days. That's my thought

19:35

for you. What do you make of it?

19:37

No, that's absolutely right. Like I

19:39

said, much of the power that we've given up

19:41

to the government, A bunch of the reason that the government has been

19:43

able to expand the way it has is

19:45

that we have slowly given up

19:47

on our ability to take care of our

19:50

own, take care of our community,

19:52

do the things that we're essential

19:54

to our own liberty. And while

19:56

I don't think we're going to suddenly retain

19:59

all of that liberty or regain all that liberty

20:01

simply because we go ahead and you

20:03

know, take care of the guy next to us,

20:05

or attend our church more, or you

20:07

know, run for school board or anything. I do. I

20:10

think that there are key steps that we can take

20:12

when things come apart. We've noticed

20:14

that it does matter who's in charge

20:16

of localities. I mean, think about the COVID

20:19

experience. Right, A lot of people put

20:21

their eyes on Ron DeSantis and Florida.

20:23

Many people move to my home state

20:25

because they recognize that who

20:27

was in charge mattered, And the fact that

20:30

Florida was able to go ahead and take serious

20:32

action on its own to protect its people

20:35

during that time made a real difference

20:37

in the way that they live their lives. It doesn't solve

20:39

every problem. We're still subject to a lot of

20:42

serious issues that have a more national

20:44

character, like mass immigration. But

20:47

the quality of life in Florida is notably

20:49

different, and there's a reason people make the choice

20:51

to move here. And so if we go ahead and take

20:53

action, especially think about something like a local

20:56

sheriff has a big control over

20:58

whether or not, say, violations

21:00

of the Second Amendment get enforced. Inside is

21:03

jurisdiction that can have a real impact

21:05

on your life, your community, the well being

21:07

of your family. And so while

21:10

general fate of the United States may

21:12

be in question, you can still take

21:15

very serious and important action to

21:17

take care of those around you. And I don't think anyone

21:19

should despair or shirk that duty

21:22

just because you know the federal

21:24

government of the United States is incompetent.

21:27

There we go. That's about as hopeful as we're going to

21:29

get here. So orin thank

21:32

you so much the total state, great work.

21:34

Appreciate you being here. Checkout ooron show on the

21:36

Blaze at well as well. Thank

21:38

you, my friend, thanks for having me