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0:39

Welcome to COP26. This is very important

0:41

to other workings of the COP. From

0:43

COP26 Climate Conference. On the best of

0:46

COP26. Big news from COP27. A

0:48

clear signal from this COP. We want this COP to

0:50

be about. COP, COP, COP, COP, COP, COP, COP, COP,

0:54

COP, COP, COP, COP, COP, COP, COP, COP, COP, COP, It's

0:58

nearly time for COP. No,

1:00

it's nothing to do with the police, but

1:02

in fact, climate change. COP

1:05

is the world's annual summit

1:07

that fights global warming. And

1:10

this year, the 28th COP,

1:13

COP28, is being held

1:15

in UAE, the United Arab Emirates,

1:17

and is being presided

1:19

over by Dr Sultan Al-Jabbar.

1:22

If we succeed in coming

1:24

together now, we have a

1:27

huge opportunity. We can reimagine

1:29

entire economies and put

1:31

every nation on the path to

1:34

a prosperous and sustainable

1:36

future. But some

1:38

are accusing this COP of becoming

1:40

a bad COP. A

1:43

COP corruptedted, they say, by

1:45

the very thing that's driving

1:47

the climate crisis. The

1:50

UAE is one of the biggest providers

1:52

of oil in the world. And

1:55

the man hosting the talks, Dr

1:57

Sultan Al-Jabbar, is also the man

1:59

in charge. of the national oil

2:01

company. The

2:04

announcement of Dr Sultan Ahmed Al-Jubeir as

2:06

COP president is unprecedented and we are

2:10

outraged and it is deeply disturbing

2:12

to see that. I think history

2:14

records will show that for COP28

2:16

we let a mosquito lead the

2:18

fight against malaria. He has a

2:21

blatant conflict of interest. He's the

2:23

CEO of the Abu Dhabi

2:25

National Oil Company. Others

2:28

though have jumped to his

2:30

defence, including the US climate

2:32

envoy John Kerry. I

2:34

think that Dr Sultan Al-Jubeir is

2:36

a terrific choice because he is

2:38

the head of the company. That

2:40

company knows it needs to transition

2:43

and is committed to transitioning and in fact

2:45

the UAE is one of the largest investors

2:48

in renewable energy. I'm

2:50

Greer Jackson, host of the Climate

2:53

Question from the BBC World Service.

2:55

This week I'm asking should

2:58

the UAE be hosting COP?

3:07

Before we get started, could you just put your phone

3:09

on aeroplane mode because it stops the recording if you

3:12

get a call. That is

3:14

a very good tip, thank you. I've

3:16

made this mistake before. You

3:19

clearly know all the deal and you've

3:21

gone through all these dramas before.

3:26

This is Zaina Khalil-Ahaj. She

3:28

describes herself as a woman,

3:30

activist and eternal optimist. She

3:34

works at the climate

3:36

defending organisation 350.org and

3:38

is originally from Lebanon. I

3:40

remember my first trip to Dubai

3:43

and that was in the late

3:45

90s. I do remember deserts everywhere.

3:50

Now you see a whole city built

3:52

in the middle of a desert, which

3:54

is phenomenal from

3:57

an architect.

4:00

engineering, building, you know?

4:03

Yeah, the pictures I've seen, it

4:05

looks very built up, very modern,

4:08

very rich country. I mean, it

4:10

is. It's an economy that

4:12

is highly developed because the

4:14

entire Gulf region economy

4:16

is dependent on oil and gas.

4:18

It's not worth it. That

4:21

transformation from the desert to

4:23

lots of waterways and greenery

4:25

and palm trees, among these

4:27

huge skyscrapers, does that

4:29

transformation mean that the country and its

4:32

people are better able to adapt to

4:35

climate change? Definitely not.

4:37

They are already witnessing

4:40

the impact of climate change.

4:42

They have seen torrential rain

4:45

and even flooding because

4:48

they don't even have an infrastructure

4:50

that accepts rain because it

4:52

never rains, right? As well,

4:55

the scarcity of the summer, it

4:57

is becoming much, much harder for them.

4:59

I mean, in the summer, you literally

5:01

cannot walk in the state for

5:03

more than few steps to get to your

5:05

car because it is

5:07

extremely hot. I mean, 47

5:09

degrees and a very, very

5:12

important concern for UAE as well

5:14

as the Gulf countries and all of

5:16

the actually Middle East and

5:18

North Africa area is water. Water

5:21

scarcity is massive in that part

5:23

of the world. And

5:25

it's just being really intensified.

5:37

So serious is the threat that

5:39

the UAE is classed as extremely

5:41

vulnerable to climate change. And

5:44

yet, as we've heard, it's

5:46

a country made rich because of

5:48

oil. In fact, the

5:50

UAE is among the world's top 10

5:53

largest oil producers. And

5:56

oil, when burnt, is one of the biggest

5:58

drivers of global warming. Zaina

6:01

says the UAE has been waking up

6:03

to that fact. If

6:05

I want to compare UAE within

6:07

their own kind of peers in

6:10

the Gulf region, they're definitely the

6:12

most progressive in terms of really

6:15

realizing that we need to

6:17

shift our economy from being

6:19

entirely dependent on export of

6:21

fossil fuel. So

6:24

the UAE has been on

6:26

a journey for many, many

6:28

years to shift that, starting

6:30

to build a market economy,

6:32

a tourism economy. So,

6:34

Zaina, in a word, how would

6:36

you describe their

6:39

climate policy and their climate ambition?

6:42

Baby steps. They have

6:44

started investing in shifting

6:47

their own access

6:49

to energy, to renewable

6:51

energies. It's still

6:53

very, very small. So for me,

6:55

that's why I'm calling it baby steps. Indeed,

6:58

they're investing billions in

7:01

renewables, and that's, of course, a very positive

7:03

move. But if you look at

7:05

the numbers, they pale in

7:07

comparison to the amount that is

7:09

invested in fossil fuels. This

7:12

is Mia Moisio from the New

7:14

Climate Institute, a climate policy think

7:16

tank based in Europe. Just

7:18

recently, the UAE announced that they would

7:21

be investing over US$50 billion

7:23

in renewables

7:25

over the next decade.

7:28

But at the same time last year, they

7:31

announced that they would be investing 150 billion,

7:34

so three times more to expand

7:36

their oil and gas business in

7:38

the next few years. This

7:42

is just one of a few

7:44

issues Mia says she's spotted in

7:46

the UAE's climate policies. Before

7:49

we get to them, I want to

7:51

give you a bit more detail on

7:53

Mia's job because it's pretty interesting. She

7:55

ranks countries on their climate policies for

7:57

a website called Climate Action Tracker, bit

8:00

like an independent global warming watchdog.

8:03

She judges whether nations are on

8:05

track for meeting that big international

8:08

climate goal of limiting climate change

8:10

to 1.5 degrees Celsius

8:12

as agreed at the big Paris

8:15

summit back in 2015, or

8:17

whether countries are failing miserably.

8:20

Though Mia has somewhat more diplomatic

8:23

language on that than me. So

8:25

we have this simple classification system ranging

8:28

from critically insufficient to 1.5 degree

8:31

compatible. Unfortunately, we have no

8:33

country in the world in the 1.5 Paris

8:36

Agreement compatible category. So most

8:39

of them range from critically

8:41

insufficient to insufficient. Okay.

8:43

And how does the UAE rank?

8:45

The UAE at the moment ranks

8:47

insufficient. If you look

8:50

at the policies it has put

8:52

in place, those are all completely

8:54

inadequate. So under their policies, the

8:57

UAE's emissions would be significantly increasing

8:59

by 2030 when in order to

9:01

meet their target, they should be already

9:03

reducing. And it is very

9:05

clear from climate science, there

9:08

should be no new investments in

9:10

new oil and gas production before

9:12

to meet the 1.5 temperature

9:15

limits. But they have signed up

9:17

to be net zero by 2050. And

9:19

that is notified as legally binding.

9:23

And that is a target that is compatible with

9:25

1.5, isn't it? So

9:27

you can announce what you want. But

9:29

if you're not actually taking action

9:31

to get there, then it's

9:33

quite meaningless. So yes, the

9:35

UAE has a target to

9:37

meet net zero emissions by 2050, which indeed,

9:41

as you say, would be 1.5 degree

9:43

compatible. But if you look

9:45

at their policies, they still have a

9:48

policy to have 50% of fossil

9:50

gas in their electricity system by 2050.

9:53

So, you know, there is clearly a mismatch. Gas,

9:57

though, less polluting than coal.

10:00

or oil still produces lots

10:02

of carbon dioxide when burnt

10:04

and causes the world to

10:06

warm. To counter that

10:08

gas-burning effect, the UAE talks

10:11

about something called CCS in

10:13

their climate plans that

10:15

show for carbon capture and

10:17

storage. carbon capture

10:20

utilization and storage plays a

10:22

significant role in achieving our net zero

10:24

targets. Admoc is doubling its

10:26

current 2030 target for carbon capture from

10:28

five million tonnes to ten million tonnes

10:31

per year. The

10:33

idea is that they'd filter out

10:35

CO2 directly from the smoke sacks

10:38

of power plants. So

10:40

this planet warming gas would never reach

10:42

the atmosphere and never cause the planet

10:45

to warm. Now the problem

10:47

is that we don't have any

10:50

scalable projects of carbon capture

10:52

and storage that have worked at the

10:54

scale needed to actually produce emissions at

10:57

that scale by 2050. It's

11:00

a completely unproven technology as of

11:02

yet and science clearly shows if

11:04

you look at the

11:06

IPCC studies or other scientific

11:08

reports, you see that

11:10

CCS has a place in meeting the

11:13

1.5 degrees temperature limit

11:15

but it should be limited to industrial

11:17

applications where there are no other

11:19

mitigation alternatives so no other ways

11:22

to reduce emissions. So

11:29

the expansion of oil and gas in

11:31

the next few years, the heavy reliance

11:33

on gas and carbon capture and storage

11:36

in 2050, those three things

11:38

make the UAE's climate policies

11:41

insufficient, according to Mia. We

11:44

put this to the UAE's Ministry

11:46

of Climate Change and Environment and

11:48

a spokesperson told us that the

11:50

UAE was quote fully committed

11:52

to the Paris Agreement and driving

11:54

down emissions domestically and globally. They

11:57

said they've just announced 25 new in

12:00

areas from energy to agriculture

12:03

and construction, and they

12:05

would go further and faster. Like

12:08

every country, the UAE's performance on the

12:10

Paris Gols will be reviewed at this

12:12

year's COP conference. The

12:14

spokesperson told the climate question

12:17

it may subsequently revise its

12:19

plans. The

12:21

fact that the UAE is such a

12:23

big producer of oil and

12:25

indeed expanding its production, do

12:28

you think it's problematic that it's

12:30

hosting the world's climate talks? That

12:33

is indeed problematic because, you

12:35

know, we know that the

12:37

UAE has a clear and strong

12:39

interest to maintain fossil

12:42

fuels as part of the picture.

12:44

So I think there there

12:46

is a clear conflict of interest. Curiously,

12:49

here's where Mia and our climate

12:51

activist Zaina have a

12:53

different perspective. Zaina sees

12:55

a clear benefit. Hosting

12:57

an event like UAE in a country

13:00

does contribute to changing

13:02

the narrative in that country and

13:04

the awareness of its own society

13:08

about what is climate change and

13:10

what is happening. From that

13:12

context, I actually think we

13:15

need to do more of these meetings in

13:18

countries where we need to change that narrative,

13:21

i.e. more in oil-producing countries, because

13:24

this is where we can start opening the

13:27

debate more within their

13:29

own society. By the

13:31

way, it's also worth noting that other countries with

13:34

the same ranking as the

13:36

UAE, insufficient, have hosted COP

13:38

before, including South Africa, the

13:40

UK, the EU and Japan.

13:43

Where Zaina and Mia both agree

13:46

is on COP's president, that

13:48

hugely important person charged with

13:50

leading the climate summit

13:52

and driving climate action. Dr Sultan

13:54

Al-Jaba. We

14:00

approach this role with humility,

14:03

a deep sense of

14:05

responsibility and a great sense

14:08

of urgency. Over

14:10

to Zeynia. My current concern

14:12

is Sultan Jabbar, who is

14:15

not only sharing the

14:17

conference and the meeting, but he is

14:20

currently the CEO of

14:22

Adnok. Adnok is the

14:24

all-producing company of FURITE of Arab

14:26

Emirates. When he was assigned, I

14:28

was like, this is like putting

14:31

the chair of the company, Marlborough,

14:33

of a conference talking about cancer.

14:36

It doesn't match. And

14:39

it's not just activists who've been

14:41

vocal about what they say is

14:43

a conflict of interest. Earlier

14:45

this year, more than 130 US senators

14:48

and European lawmakers signed an

14:50

open letter to the US

14:52

President Joe Biden and EU

14:54

Commission President Ursula von der

14:56

Leyen, demanding that Sultan Al-Jabbar

14:58

be replaced. This is

15:01

my BBC World Service colleague, Sam

15:03

Fenwick. She's been profiling Al-Jabbar

15:05

for the Business Daily programme. She is

15:07

going to take us through exactly who

15:09

he is and how he got the

15:11

top job at COP. Well, we've

15:14

been looking at Dr. Sultan Al-Jabbar's

15:16

CV and it's pretty extensive. He

15:18

served as a Minister of State

15:20

for the UAE for 10 years.

15:24

He's got a PhD in Business

15:26

and Economics from Coventry University in

15:28

the UK. Before that,

15:30

though, he studied chemical engineering at the

15:32

University of Southern California. He graduated from

15:34

that in 1997. And

15:38

just under a decade later,

15:40

he founded Mazda, that renewable

15:42

energy company. So the heart of the

15:44

UAE for all of humanity,

15:47

Mazda are pioneering energy.

15:51

It builds solar and wind projects in

15:53

40 countries. From

15:55

Indonesia to the UK to

15:57

Oman and Egypt, it's invested. invested

16:00

around $20 billion in

16:02

renewable technologies. And

16:04

then in 2016, Dr. Al-Jaba was

16:06

appointed the CEO of Adnok. For

16:09

this is a united

16:11

Arab Emirates. And

16:13

we are Adnok. In

16:23

2020, he was appointed the U.E.'s Special

16:25

Climate Envoy and then head of COP

16:27

in January of this year. Some

16:30

are saying that it's precisely because

16:32

Al-Jaba works in oil that he's

16:34

perfect for the COP job, bringing

16:36

together oil and gas producers and

16:38

making them listen to him in

16:40

a way that they wouldn't have

16:42

done at previous COP. Back

16:45

to Sam. John Kerry, the

16:47

United States Special Presidential Envoy

16:49

for Climate Change, he said

16:52

that he thinks Dr. Sultan Al-Jaba

16:54

is a terrific choice. And

16:57

Franz Kimmemans, who is the former

16:59

vice president of the European Commission,

17:01

thinks that Dr. Al-Jaba is extremely

17:03

well placed to lead us into

17:06

a successful COP because of his

17:08

involvement in renewable energies. And

17:10

that's something that Stephen Geiger, who

17:13

is the founding member of Mazda

17:15

alongside Dr. Sultan, Al-Jaba agrees with.

17:18

The reason I think that both

17:20

the country and Dr. Sultan on

17:22

a personal basis are legitimate host

17:24

and president is because they do

17:26

represent the broadest possible constituencies. They

17:28

understand and work with the industrialized

17:30

North. They are Muslim country, Middle

17:32

Eastern country. They work actively with

17:34

China and Asia and Russia and

17:36

the other petrostates, Saudi and Iraq.

17:39

That's a skill set I think that they're uniquely bringing

17:41

to the table here. And it's absolutely critical if we're

17:43

going to try to get any progress at COP. The

17:51

BBC reached out for an interview with

17:54

Dr. Sultan Al-Jaba, but he declined. A

17:57

COP28 spokesperson did tell us that,

17:59

quote, His experience uniquely positions

18:01

him to be able to convene

18:03

both the public and private sectors

18:05

to bring about pragmatic solutions

18:07

to keep the 1.5 degrees

18:10

Celsius climate goal within reach.

18:18

As we've heard, Al-Jaba's position to

18:20

lead a climate conference is one

18:23

issue of contention, but

18:25

another is how his firm, Adnok,

18:27

is increasing oil and gas capacity,

18:29

which I think is something worth

18:32

unpacking in a bit more detail.

18:35

The perfect person to do that is Fiona

18:37

Harvey. She's an environment editor

18:39

at the Guardian newspaper in the

18:41

UK, and she's one of the

18:44

few journalists who's interviewed Al-Jaba. I've

18:47

met him several times now, and

18:49

he's really interesting. He's very

18:51

charming. He's brilliant. He's

18:54

always cracking jokes, and

18:56

he's prepared to have robust discussions.

18:59

I mean, I wasn't holding back on

19:01

asking him questions, because it is a

19:04

very odd thing to have the head

19:06

of an oil company, an oil company

19:08

that's expanding its operations, as

19:10

the head of the discussions that are supposed

19:13

to try and solve the world's climate crisis.

19:16

And his answers were clear,

19:18

very concise, but at

19:20

the same time, the contradiction remains. I

19:23

mean, and he seems to suggest in your

19:25

article that you can continue extracting and expanding

19:28

the amount of oil and gas and fossil

19:30

fuels you take from the ground and

19:32

fight climate change somehow, which, as you say,

19:35

seem quite contradictory. Yeah, well, he

19:37

says that some can. I'm

19:39

not sure whether he thinks that

19:42

every oil company should continue its

19:44

operations, but he did argue strongly

19:46

that Adnok, his company, has a

19:49

better record than other companies on the

19:52

high tech way in which it extracts

19:55

oil that reduces the greenhouse

19:58

gas emissions associated with that. So

20:01

he was trying to say that if you

20:03

had a choice between different oil and gas

20:05

products, you should choose ad mocs. It's

20:07

better. What Aljaba also said,

20:10

and he has a point, is

20:12

that demand is a problem. People

20:15

still use fossil fuels. People still have

20:17

demand for fossil fuels. So

20:19

that's an argument, but it's a bit

20:21

chicken and egg, you know. And as

20:23

I pointed out, blaming the consumer, it's

20:26

not really sufficient that the producer has

20:28

to take responsibility too. So

20:30

all of the things that Aljaba

20:33

said to me are correct. It's

20:36

just that they don't add

20:38

up enough to solve the

20:40

world's climate crisis. We

20:43

also asked ad mocs for comment,

20:45

and a spokesperson told us that

20:47

Dr Aljaba's company planned to reduce

20:49

the, quote, carbon intensity of its

20:51

oil and gas by a quarter

20:53

by 2030. The

20:56

spokesperson added that, quote, with

20:59

a growing global population seeking

21:01

universal access to energy, all

21:04

current energy transition scenarios, including

21:06

by the IEA, acknowledge that

21:08

oil and gas will be

21:11

needed to meet future energy

21:13

demand. The IEA,

21:15

by the way, are the

21:17

Independent International Energy Agency. More

21:20

about them in a minute. Fiona

21:27

has been to and reported on 16 COPs.

21:30

So how does she think this one is going

21:33

to play out? They are extraordinary

21:35

occasions because you've got 198 countries there,

21:37

and you've got world leaders

21:41

there, you've got ministers there, you've got,

21:43

of course, you've got businesses, you've always

21:46

had businesses there, but you've got lots

21:48

of civil society activists and so on.

21:51

And there's a sort of alchemy

21:53

about that. So I

21:55

think it would be wrong to

21:58

pass judgment on. These

22:02

are sentiments

22:04

he himself has echoed before at

22:07

a pre-COC summit late last month.

22:29

He's putting his credibility on the line. You know, if you

22:31

go out there and you say, I'm

22:41

the person, I'm uniquely well pleased to

22:43

do this, well then you've got to

22:46

front up, haven't you? You've got to

22:48

show that you can do what you've

22:50

promised you were going to do. But

22:53

the presidency is not the only factor

22:55

here. There are a lot

22:57

of oil producing countries that will be

23:00

present at COP that would

23:02

really like to see an agreement

23:04

that leaves an awful lot of

23:06

room for them to keep expanding

23:09

their operations. So we'll see

23:11

what comes out of them. You

23:13

just can't prejudge COPs. Since

23:20

we made that programme, the BBC's

23:22

climate editor, Justin Rollat has been

23:24

investigating the UAE and Dr Sultan

23:26

Al-Jaba. Justin, can you tell us

23:28

what you've been uncovering? So

23:31

what we've gathered is evidence that

23:33

shows that the UAE used

23:36

meetings arranged under the auspices of the

23:38

UN and COP28 to talk about planning

23:40

deals on oil and gas. So we've

23:43

got a whole sheath of documents that

23:45

show they were planning to meet, for

23:47

example, I don't know, the Brazilian Environment

23:50

Minister, the Environment Minister of China, loads

23:52

of Environment Ministers, more than 25. They

23:54

prepared talking points, they call them, from

23:57

their oil company Adnok and from the

23:59

Renewable company that Mazda are talking about

24:01

what business opportunities might be able to be

24:03

raised in them. Now we know on at

24:05

least one occasion those were raised.

24:07

We've obviously taken these allegations to the

24:09

COP28 team and Dr. Sultan Al Jabbar.

24:11

They say we never made any secret

24:13

of the fact that he was the

24:15

CEO of the oil company and of

24:17

Mazda and they say private meetings are

24:19

private and we're not going to comment

24:21

on it. So it's quite hard to

24:23

say how often they were used. We

24:25

approached 27 countries that they drew up

24:27

these talking points for. We approached them

24:29

all for comment. 27. 10

24:32

of them have said there were no commercial

24:34

discussions in them. The UK, Germany, France, Netherlands,

24:36

European Union, loads of countries they had business

24:38

that they wanted to discuss but we are

24:40

told they did not raise it and then

24:43

obviously the 17 for whom we didn't get

24:45

answers. Right, okay so do we know

24:47

if any of these talking points were successful?

24:49

Did they drum up business in oil and

24:51

gas from these COP meetings? We know that

24:53

on one occasion the foreign

24:55

government got back to pursue the

24:58

inquiry. We know for example with

25:00

Brazil they were very keen to

25:02

raise with the Brazilian Environment Minister

25:05

Adnot plans to buy the largest

25:07

petro-kinicals company in Latin America, a

25:09

Brazilian company called Braschem, a

25:11

multi-billion pound bid. We know that

25:14

earlier this month, earlier in November, they

25:17

made a bid for a portion of it so

25:19

we know that the bid did progress. So we

25:21

can't say that it's associated with COP28 meetings but

25:23

we know that they plan to discuss it. The

25:26

other ones are obviously really opaque. He's

25:28

supposed to be independent. When he's acting for

25:30

COP he's supposed to be acting

25:32

on behalf, Grae, let's not forget,

25:34

of the world, right? So he's

25:36

entrusted with this process which is

25:38

designed to reduce carbon emissions and

25:40

carbon dioxide emissions generally on behalf

25:43

of the world and what

25:45

we've seen is evidence they plan to

25:47

use the meeting set up for that

25:49

purpose to pursue their own interest

25:51

in selling oil and gas. What

25:54

do you think that means for this COP then?

25:56

What are the implications? I think

25:58

it calls into question the extent which

26:01

it can be seen as a trustworthy chair,

26:03

the president is the chair of COP. But

26:05

I don't want, I really really don't want

26:07

to say that I think this is gonna

26:09

kind of massively interfere with the process. In

26:11

the online article I wrote I said you

26:13

know ultimately they'll be judged on the outcomes

26:15

right and let's leave it open-ended, let's see

26:17

what the outcomes are. They've got some really

26:20

ambitious, they've got an ambitious agenda, they say

26:22

they're committed to the science. Now as I

26:24

say I think we should judge them on

26:27

on how successful an outcome there is. That's

26:37

all for this edition of The Climate

26:39

Question. Ben Cooper was

26:41

my producer this week with help

26:43

from researchers Sharuk El-Kabrosy and Octavia

26:45

Woodward. Simon Weltz is the

26:47

series producer and China Collins is

26:49

the editor. Tom Brickmill is our

26:52

logistical mixer. Food

27:04

is incredibly important in the world. It's

27:07

about survival, culinary heritage,

27:09

culture and tradition, different

27:11

relationships across the world. The food

27:14

chain from the BBC World Service

27:16

examines the business, science and cultural

27:18

significance of food. This

27:20

kind of food is lost, our community

27:22

will lose it I bet. And

27:25

what it takes to put food on

27:27

your plate. This is an incredible journey.

27:29

Search for the food chain wherever you

27:31

get your BBC broadcast.