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1:11

Hello, welcome. Come on in. This

1:13

is my home and I'm proud to

1:15

say it's pretty eco. We

1:18

have solar panels, insulation, electric

1:21

hub, LED lights. Of

1:24

course, it's not perfect. We have

1:26

a gas boiler to heat our

1:28

water and our home. And

1:30

I do have a petrol car outside on

1:32

the drive, but I've given it my best.

1:39

This week on the climate question

1:41

from the BBC World Service, behind

1:44

the scenes access to climate friendly

1:46

living. Because if

1:48

we want to avoid the worst effects

1:50

of climate change, we all need to

1:52

be embracing an eco lifestyle. So

1:55

our question is, what does a more

1:57

sustainable life actually look like? Welcome

2:08

to the back of the road. As far as you

2:10

can get off the beaten truck in Bornholm, it's

2:13

a... I met Mads Kisse

2:15

back in the summer of 2023 when I

2:17

took a trip to Bornholm in Denmark. Regular

2:20

listeners of the climate question will remember that

2:23

this island is trying to be carbon neutral

2:25

by 2025. On

2:28

that trip I went to an

2:31

eco-village called Friskofen, a band of

2:33

nurses, teachers, potters, builders and others

2:35

who are creating a sustainable community.

2:37

And it's there that I met

2:40

Mads. Before

2:42

we go back to Mads though, there's one thing

2:44

I think you really ought to know. A

2:47

whopping 40-70% of

2:49

the world's emissions could be cut

2:52

if we all made greener choices when

2:54

it comes to how we travel

2:56

around, what we eat and how

2:58

we build will power our home.

3:01

That's worth repeating isn't it? 40-70%

3:03

of planet warming gases

3:05

wouldn't be emitted if we all

3:07

made greener choices. That's

3:09

according to the gold standard climate report

3:12

produced by the IPCC. Mads

3:15

is super focused on the

3:17

housing element of this equation.

3:21

Yes, I'm a professional activist I

3:24

guess. So I've travelled around Europe

3:26

protesting in climate environment. Hi,

3:28

dad. Hi, boys. That

3:31

was my daughter. I

3:34

spent most of my time at the moment either

3:36

as a building houses or

3:38

design sustainable houses for people. Building

3:40

this community that we're in now. On

3:44

first impressions, it looks like a

3:46

series of quite dilapidated and run-down

3:49

red army barracks. I mean, there

3:51

are broken windows covered by bits

3:53

of tarp. I can see chamomile

3:56

growing and cornflour. Also

3:58

benches with... fire pits in

4:01

the middle and kitchen gardens

4:03

behind all the barracks. We're

4:06

surrounded by trees and woodland.

4:10

There's a concrete tree there and

4:12

you can hear a very old pine

4:14

creaking next to me. We

4:18

are sat at one of the

4:21

tables outside the community space in

4:23

co-op housing under construction.

4:27

It's called Friskon, it means the free forest.

4:31

It's basically a housing project but

4:33

a housing project with a bunch of other added

4:35

values to it. We try to show how we

4:37

can be sustainable without having loads of money. And

4:40

just tell me about the history of this place.

4:43

Yeah, so it was built

4:46

as a correctional facility where young men would

4:48

get sent in the interwar period. We

4:51

took it over about three and a half years ago.

4:54

But it was very much

4:56

de-appadated and left to be demolished.

4:59

But it's kind of slowly moving towards

5:02

a space where we hope that 70 to 80 people

5:04

can build. How many lives now?

5:07

We are 36. And

5:11

the bulk of them kids. I

5:14

get the greatest joy out of just seeing

5:16

like 10 kids on bikes kind of just

5:18

racing through the street owning it totally. Like

5:20

I'm like yeah cool that's kids life you

5:22

know. There

5:25

are four buildings each around

5:27

300 meters long and decorated

5:29

with wood. One is

5:31

a community building with showers, a

5:33

movie room, classroom and kitchen.

5:36

And I can see you've got a big

5:39

collection for your recycling.

5:41

I can see plastic here.

5:43

Load of cardboard boxes separated.

5:46

And we've got cans, we've

5:48

got glass. A

5:51

whole colony of flies as well. Yeah really

5:53

enjoying what's left over in those cans. And

5:56

so like the idea here was just to try and

5:58

make a space that we... We can all

6:00

gather here and we can make our dinners here. We

6:02

have kind of a road that people make dinners for

6:05

everybody once a fortnight. With

6:07

the food you've grown or? A bit

6:10

of a mix. Dump-strut food we've grown

6:12

and otherwise. The

6:14

remaining three barracks are being

6:16

restored and divided into apartments,

6:18

reusing and repairing what they

6:21

can, sharing resources and skills

6:23

to ensure it's as sustainable

6:25

as possible. Madz's

6:27

flat was the first to be

6:29

completed. It's taken over a

6:32

year of renovation work, so as you

6:34

can imagine, he and his family are

6:36

very excited to be moving in. Can

6:39

I just use it a part? OK.

6:42

She's asking if she's cycle ahead of us. She wants to show

6:44

us. OK, for sure. I'm

6:53

going to use the floor. Sure. We've

6:55

actually just waxed the floor. It's

6:58

just waxed the floor? Yeah, it's an

7:00

earthen floor and we've just finished it

7:02

with linseed oil and wax. And

7:04

then it's similar to concrete floors

7:07

in a lot of properties, but it has one

7:09

tenth of the embodied energy. And

7:12

we've sourced most... I eat lower carbon emissions.

7:14

Like, massively lower carbon emissions.

7:16

And we've sourced most of it

7:18

from within 15 kilometres up here.

7:21

So I feel like you need to say something like,

7:23

welcome to my crib or... I don't know, like, it

7:25

feels... It's got that kind of... All right, welcome

7:27

to my bathroom. It's

7:30

a really beautiful space. High ceilings,

7:33

exposed beams, a wood kitchen and

7:35

a slate worktop. It's

7:37

light, bright, spacious and modern.

7:40

If I'm honest, not at all what I was

7:42

expecting. So we're in, like,

7:44

what's now the main room and which is going

7:46

to be kind of like where all

7:48

of our rooms kind of adjourn too. So

7:51

as you come in through the front

7:53

door, you've got four rooms, three rooms

7:55

off to your left and right immediately.

7:57

And you walk down a corridor into

7:59

the... big living space. You've got a

8:01

dining table immediate to your left in your

8:04

kitchen to your right and beyond that I

8:07

suppose conventionally it would be somewhere where there's a

8:09

sofa and a TV. It will be a sofa

8:11

for sure. No telly. And

8:15

you've got a big word burning stove in

8:17

the centre and next to there it looks

8:19

like a cherry tree as a support beam but it's

8:22

not like a typical beam it's the

8:24

original trunk and all its bark on

8:26

it. All the windows internally and

8:28

all the doors in here are all secondhand.

8:30

The doors into the rooms are about 200

8:33

years old and actually

8:35

the whole kitchen as well is

8:37

secondhand material as well. They're all like old

8:39

floorboards from a farm and then handed it

8:41

down and made it nice. So in some

8:43

ways you know when we think about living sustainably

8:46

on a personal level actually

8:49

what you're describing is reusing

8:51

repurposing as much

8:54

as you possibly can and where

8:56

you can't do that using

8:58

the most environmental materials

9:00

you can like the floor,

9:03

locally sourced low carbon materials

9:06

that don't have an impact on

9:08

the environment or the people that are

9:10

living here. Would that be sort of

9:12

if we're gonna sort of paint a

9:14

picture of what sustainability means would

9:17

that sort of encapsulate

9:19

it? Yeah I guess that kind of encapsulated

9:22

it like I build professionally as well so like I

9:24

have a lot of thought in terms of structure and

9:26

in terms of all of these things that need to

9:28

kind of be like those requirements

9:30

need to be met but beyond that I'm trying

9:32

to then anything that could be secondhand

9:35

let's try to find something to repurpose but

9:38

it's still with a lot of aesthetics we made the

9:40

paint ourselves both because it's sustainable

9:42

and is made from clay and flour but

9:45

also because it costs about 1 20th

9:48

of what regular paint does so it

9:50

means that we've also built this house

9:53

at a quarter of the regular new

9:55

build price. So sustainable

9:57

in a financial sense for you as

9:59

well. Dad as well. It means that both my

10:01

partner and I don't have to work more than four

10:03

or five hours a week. Wow.

10:06

Four or five hours. Yeah. I wanted to arrive

10:08

at some point in my life where I didn't

10:10

have to spend all of my time working, basically.

10:14

I think my dad worked himself to death and I

10:16

never want to see that happen to anybody. OK.

10:26

I'm impressed with what Mads and

10:28

the Friscoven villages have achieved. One

10:31

thing that strikes me is that being

10:33

part of an eco community makes a

10:36

low carbon lifestyle easier in some ways.

10:38

Sharing cooking responsibilities frees up a

10:41

lot of time sourcing and cooking

10:43

environmentally friendly food every night. Knowledge

10:46

and resources around how to make your

10:48

home eco are pulled and shared and

10:50

so are the costs. But

10:53

living in a commune in the middle

10:56

of nowhere is not for everybody. Most

10:58

of us live in cities. So

11:01

it's time to meet Jürgen Huber,

11:03

a German living in central London

11:05

with a conventional job. He

11:08

says he's also living a very low

11:10

carbon lifestyle and has been interested in

11:12

this for years. I

11:16

was always interested in nature

11:18

and like to protect nature. I

11:20

just want to get a

11:22

visualization of what the young

11:24

Jürgen was like. Paint

11:26

me a picture, will you? I

11:28

was very, very interested in technology very much.

11:30

So as a kid and I think most

11:32

kids are as 11 year, 12 year old,

11:34

I was watching everything. And at the time

11:36

there was a massive drive in Germany for

11:39

new nuclear power like in the early 80s. And

11:42

these days I realized that the real high tech

11:44

is in solar panels, wind turbines. When you see

11:47

that there's an incredible engineering. So when

11:49

you see these things being put together,

11:52

it's just an extraordinary sight. What's

11:55

the biggest change that you've made

11:57

to your life Jürgen? pilots

12:00

with every day try to shop

12:02

more consciously and see

12:04

what I really need and my house

12:07

which I've converted into nearly energy

12:09

neutral or carbon neutral. How

12:11

have you done that? Well, the

12:14

simplest thing to do is put

12:16

solar panels up. I'm facing southeast

12:18

and with these 20 square meters I

12:21

produce some 3,000, 3,500 kilowatt hours

12:24

of electricity here or energy and

12:26

that's pretty much what we use as a family

12:28

of four in that house. We've got no gas,

12:31

I've got an air pump, a heat source pump,

12:34

I've got electric underfloor heating, a bit of

12:36

insulation, double glazing. The list goes on

12:38

but it's not to poor you. No,

12:42

not pouring at all. It's very interesting and very inspiring

12:44

but does all of that cost quite a lot of

12:46

money I guess? Absolutely, absolutely. So

12:49

the solar system was financed by

12:51

a bank and by now the

12:53

loan has been paid back and now

12:55

I basically generate electricity and my

12:58

own pockets so to say. One

13:00

of the other big ways in

13:02

which people look at their carbon

13:05

footprints and how to live sustainably

13:07

is by diet and eating less

13:09

meat and also flying. So

13:11

have you also made changes to your

13:13

life in those two areas as well?

13:17

Absolutely. My whole family reduced

13:19

me consumption tremendously. So

13:21

yeah, vegan vegetarian diet is pretty much

13:23

on the card. I just

13:25

went with colleagues last week to a pizza

13:28

place nearby and I got a vegan pizza

13:30

and it was the most delicious looking and

13:32

the best pizza you could have. So

13:35

we take train wherever we can but we

13:38

do fly as well and the reason

13:40

why I look at it just a fight in

13:42

a way is because I also invest in a

13:44

lot of local energy projects. I mean

13:46

I'm not a millionaire in disguise but whenever

13:49

I got a bit of spare cash I

13:51

put me into energy projects in renewables, sort

13:53

of wind turbines or solar on the roofs

13:56

and so I think I can say I've very

13:59

much lived carbon. carbon neutral, including my family.

14:01

Are your kids and family on board with

14:04

all of that? Oh, absolutely. You know,

14:06

kids love go shopping in secondhand shops.

14:08

And of course, you know, my son loves

14:10

his PS5. So it's not

14:12

necessarily the most carbon neutral pastime.

14:15

But thinking that electricity comes from

14:17

renewables, I'm quite happy with that.

14:19

You do make living carbon neutral

14:21

or low carbon sound really easy.

14:24

Well, it is easy. And it's not

14:26

nearly as difficult as some people make it out to

14:29

be. You don't have to try perfection. You don't have

14:31

to be. You know, we

14:33

rather have thousands of people imperfect, but

14:35

trying to get there, rather than having

14:37

a few perfect human beings, you know,

14:39

it's just not going to happen. Humans

14:43

come with a carbon footprint. It's just no denial,

14:45

whatever you do. So it's

14:47

for me, the things that I want to

14:50

minimize my impact. So when I

14:52

snuff it, I can say, well, right, you know, I

14:54

tried my best. That's what I've done. You know, that's the

14:56

end of it. There

15:03

are two things that really stood out to

15:05

me about Jürgen. First of all,

15:07

he is really thinking about his legacy here,

15:10

isn't he? Like what do you do when

15:12

you die? Or snuff it, as Jürgen says.

15:15

What world do you want to leave behind?

15:17

Do you want to leave huge environmental problems

15:19

for your kids to deal with? Or

15:22

do you want to die knowing that you did

15:24

your best to create a better world? The

15:27

other thing that struck me is his relaxed

15:29

approach to it all. I think often we

15:31

can get caught up in the trap

15:34

of being perfect. And that feels

15:36

overwhelming. And so we give up.

15:39

It's all too hard. But

15:41

taking a more relaxed approach, a

15:44

little improvement here and there, feels

15:46

much more achievable. But...

15:52

And it's a big but. Individual

15:54

changes only get us so

15:56

far. Because there's a

15:58

part of our personal car... footprint

16:00

that's beyond our control, that's

16:02

in the hands of governments.

16:05

Like the diesel-powered trains we

16:07

take to work, the asphalt

16:09

paving we walk over, indeed

16:11

the affordability of low-carbon technology

16:13

like electric vehicles, heat pumps

16:15

and solar panels. When

16:18

I first came to Calcutta City

16:21

where I live in 1980s,

16:23

I used to walk to my university

16:26

and that was a pleasant walk. But

16:29

over time we lost

16:31

the walkability within

16:33

the city because of

16:35

the congestion, because of the pollution.

16:38

This is Professor Joya Shri Roy

16:40

of the Asian Institute of Technology.

16:43

She specialises in environmental economics and

16:46

was a lead author on the

16:48

social aspects of fighting climate change

16:50

for the IPCC's most recent report.

16:54

So what I'm trying to say is

16:56

that even if people

16:58

sometimes want to live

17:01

a sustainable life by walking

17:03

so that that can keep them

17:06

healthy and they want to bike

17:08

it, but the infrastructure is not

17:10

there, then it becomes a

17:12

problem. I feel like

17:14

we're dancing around an issue here, which

17:17

is how far can an individual go

17:19

to reduce their carbon footprint versus

17:22

what governments and businesses need

17:24

to do to ensure that they are able to

17:26

do that if they want to. Do

17:28

you think there's too much

17:30

emphasis on individuals as opposed

17:32

to businesses and governments? One

17:35

thing I would say that it is true

17:37

that individuals are the

17:40

consumers, the communities, the

17:42

businesses, urban planners, policymakers,

17:45

and they make every day

17:47

the responsible consumption and

17:49

production and design and investment

17:51

choices. So individual does

17:53

matter. But even if we

17:55

do everything on the demand side, not more than

17:58

40 to 70 percent. We

18:00

can reduce by twenty fifty.

18:02

We don't need decarbonization in

18:04

the supply side so it's

18:06

not about the the individuals

18:09

can do everything for people

18:11

to made the right choices.

18:13

We need to give them

18:15

the right kind of infrastructure

18:17

and there needs to be

18:19

a investment. For the

18:21

right infrastructure. I'm. In

18:23

an argument I often hear is

18:25

that governments and businesses need to

18:27

make the green choice. The Eco

18:29

choice be easy choice, right. Say

18:31

that consumers don't have to think

18:33

about it, must set sit laws.

18:35

I mean still have any good

18:38

examples where that's been the case.

18:40

I. Should say about it

18:42

and doing pandemic. this was

18:44

an eye opener. Many countries

18:47

to me took a decision

18:49

how to change the At

18:52

infrastructure so they put on

18:54

the lock ways and this

18:56

by cycling and saw that.

18:59

People would move have an

19:01

active transport becomes more possible.

19:04

And they have actually been able

19:06

to deduce their transportation related

19:08

bobbing emission and in this is

19:11

actually happening in many many countries.

19:13

So I see this as a

19:15

very positive example are you

19:17

would see of each is happening.

19:21

Say Yes! We can make

19:23

substantial changes that will fight

19:25

climate change. Individuals' matter

19:28

as choice. He says. That.

19:31

We need some support from

19:33

governments to make these decisions.

19:35

Be making the green options

19:37

the default, walking or cycling

19:39

easier or creating policies that

19:41

make it a alternatives cheaper,

19:44

Because. A should not be

19:46

near scaring people by saying

19:49

that be have to give

19:51

up everything. It's not about

19:53

giving up, it's about having

19:55

it has your life and

19:58

healthier environment and dead. A

20:00

peaceful it is society so that

20:02

there is less suffering due to

20:05

the disasters and Aunts says that

20:07

will make those sustainable Living. More

20:10

meaningful. I can

20:12

hear and your boyfriend you are talking about

20:14

walking to work every day and how much

20:16

joy that gives you but how much healthier

20:18

you feel as wow yeah I can tell

20:20

your life I do not as to see

20:22

the doctor. Said

20:25

maybe as I mean innings and we have a saying like

20:27

that is an apple a day and keeps the doctor away

20:29

and says might be as a walk a day she says

20:31

oh. That's. Or over a. Sustainable.

20:41

Like imagine having to give

20:43

lots of things up from

20:45

beef burgers to flying for

20:47

holidays. Thought about sacrifice. But

20:50

over the years I've met a lot

20:53

of people who are living sustainably and

20:55

genuinely don't see it as a sacrifice

20:57

at all, and I believe them. But.

21:00

If you don't, says good science to

21:02

back this up. The

21:04

I P C C states that

21:06

Green A Living is quite consistent

21:08

with a high quality of life

21:10

and. Improved happiness. It

21:14

certainly seems Mads in Denmark

21:16

agrees. The. I do

21:18

think there would have this austerity

21:20

by going on in terms of

21:22

sustainability. that sustainability is basically about

21:24

having this really boring or sterilise

21:27

bed with lentils and gone are

21:29

both to holidays. A new you

21:31

know we're be will be able

21:33

to ever go further than Germany

21:36

or whatever you know, I'm sorry

21:38

Germany effort to Germany from from

21:40

hurting the narrative that we create

21:42

around sustainability. I was either gonna

21:45

drive us forward into fantastically progressive,

21:47

beautiful. way or is kind of drivers

21:49

towards this kind of very austere situation

21:51

where a lot of our lives are

21:54

controlled by a lack of his scarcity

21:56

issue and i do think that a

21:58

lot of beauty has to

22:00

be shown to change the narrative

22:02

away from this austerity thing.

22:04

And I think that's actually why I'm

22:07

interested in eco-villages and this kind of

22:09

community vibe. It's a way of showing

22:12

other purposes in life or other joys in

22:14

life that are less material culture. And

22:16

that's more about meaningful coexistence. I

22:24

guess my take on a good life then

22:26

is doing meaningful work

22:28

and being able to connect with a bunch

22:31

of people and feel like

22:33

I make a difference in

22:35

their life as well a little bit. Whether

22:37

that be just a good conversation

22:39

partner for somebody who has a tough time in

22:42

their life right now or

22:45

creating a garden that's really beautiful because that

22:47

will all have ripple effects. I'm

22:49

not saying that just because we talked and share

22:51

a bike is going to massively improve everybody's health.

22:54

But I do think that all of these

22:56

little streams can create a

22:58

massive flood of change. My

23:13

parents made such an impression on me and

23:15

really made me question what is this

23:17

good life that I want? I

23:20

love my job but the idea

23:23

of a five hour working week,

23:25

more time with my kid and

23:27

more headspace to make greener decisions

23:30

well that's something I could definitely get

23:32

on board with. What about you? You

23:35

can email me and the team

23:37

it's theclimatequestion at bbc.com

23:42

The people behind the scenes of this

23:44

programme are Ben Cooper, Octavia Woodward,

23:46

Simon Watts and Tom Rignall. Thanks

23:49

for listening and I'll see you next time. Bye.

24:03

It all started with me asking my friends

24:05

and family to write letters to my daughter,

24:07

Coco, sharing their experiences and

24:09

giving her advice for her life ahead.

24:12

The idea blossomed into Dear Daughter

24:14

from the BBC World Service.

24:16

The podcast where, with the help

24:18

of your letters, I'm creating a handbook

24:21

to life full of advice for daughters

24:23

everywhere. Listen now by

24:25

searching for Dear Daughter wherever you

24:27

get your BBC podcasts. My

24:30

daughter. Subtle

24:36

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24:38

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