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The Global Story, with smart

1:01

takes and fresh perspectives on

1:03

one big news story, every Monday

1:06

to Friday from the BBC World Service.

1:09

Search for The Global Story wherever

1:11

you get your BBC podcasts to find

1:13

out more. Hello,

1:22

I'm Greya Jackson and this is

1:24

the Climate Question from the BBC World

1:26

Service. This week we're

1:29

doing something a little bit different.

1:31

I'm handing over the hosting to

1:33

my colleague Nick Miles from the Global

1:35

News Podcast. Hello, Nick.

1:37

Hello, Greya. Thanks very much.

1:39

How does it feel to be on the Climate Question? Very

1:41

excited. Because, Nick, you've had lots

1:44

of questions about climate change. We

1:46

certainly have. I mean, from around the world, people

1:49

have been questioning what exactly

1:51

COP is about, whether or not it's

1:53

an issue that could be addressed by

1:55

a Zoom call. Are we wasting thousands

1:58

of tons of carbon by flying...

1:59

people halfway around the world. We've got

2:02

questions in from people who are saying, okay,

2:04

is greenwashing a real issue?

2:06

That's this idea about certain countries

2:08

say, oh, look, look what we're doing, whereas actually

2:11

behind the facade,

2:14

as some people see it, they're actually consuming

2:16

more oil and coal than

2:18

ever before. So all sorts of issues and complaints

2:21

about what people are doing, but also

2:23

some suggestions about what

2:26

could go into COP that isn't at the moment.

2:28

And next to me is the BBC's

2:31

climate editor and climate question regular

2:33

Justin Rayner. I'm becoming that

2:35

way, isn't it? Yeah, it's a good thing. You're going to

2:38

help me answer those questions.

2:38

My pleasure.

2:42

This

2:48

is a global news podcast, special climate

2:51

edition from the BBC World Service.

2:54

I'm Nick Miles in London. And in

2:57

this edition, recorded at 14 hours GMT

2:59

on Friday, the 24th of November ahead

3:01

of the COP 28 climate meeting

3:04

in Dubai. We're joined by Grae Jackson,

3:06

who's not just a scientist, but also the presenter

3:08

of the climate question. Hi there.

3:11

Hello. And by the BBC's climate

3:13

editor, Justin Roelatz. Hiya. Thanks to

3:16

you both. We will be putting your questions

3:18

to them about everything from new technology

3:21

to tree planting and what can be done

3:23

by us, the sort of people who don't get invited

3:25

to big international conferences like

3:28

the one in Dubai. There is a lot

3:30

to get through. So without further ado,

3:32

let's get started.

3:36

The

3:39

boats in the harbour, most of them were burned

3:42

and had sunk. The historic

3:44

section behind the town, which used to be the capital

3:46

of Hawaii, was burned to the ground,

3:48

historic buildings, the church. There

3:51

are plenty of houses, plenty

3:54

of houses, but they are

3:56

all poor. These are some of the rocks

3:58

that destroyed people's houses.

3:59

here in freeways in Blantair

4:02

when Sykes and Freddie made landfall in Malawi.

4:05

Some of these rocks are four times my size

4:07

and when I was growing up... ...here

4:15

in Turner at the moment.

4:17

The buildings, the cars, were

4:20

swept out to sea and all that collapsed

4:23

is rubble and dirt

4:24

and destruction. Some

4:28

of this year's news coverage of fires

4:30

in Hawaii, the devastation in southeast

4:33

Africa caused by Cyclone Freddie, and

4:35

the destruction in Libya from Storm

4:37

Daniel. And data suggests this is

4:39

very likely to be the hottest year on record.

4:43

It is against this background that world leaders

4:45

are gathering in the United Arab Emirates,

4:48

the COP 28, that's the UN climate change conference.

4:51

The 28th such meeting to promote

4:54

coordinated action to tackle climate change. First

4:57

up, Justin, our climate editor, in

4:59

a nutshell, what are the delegates and

5:02

organizers hoping will come out of COP this year? 70,000 people

5:04

going, 167 world leaders, the Pope, the King,

5:06

there's a kind of huge amount that they cover. And

5:13

they're saying this is going to be a really

5:15

crucial COP. I mean, to be fair,

5:18

they always say this, don't they, Graeme? They always

5:20

say it's crucial. But there is a very important moment.

5:22

This is the moment we do the global stock take. The first

5:25

global stock take since Paris and

5:27

Paris back in 2015 was really significant

5:29

because... ...and listeners may find this

5:31

bizarre, that was the first time

5:34

that all the countries in the world agreed that they'd get together

5:36

and would tackle it. Before that, it was only developed

5:38

countries that were going to tackle climate change.

5:41

So that was a watershed moment for climate. This

5:43

is the first time we assess how

5:46

effective the action that countries, all

5:48

the countries in the world, have been in doing

5:50

the things that they said they were going to do to

5:52

try and tackle climate change. Because the agreement

5:54

is that they decide, they do nationally

5:57

determined contributions, that's them

5:59

deciding what they're going to do. going to do on climate change. So we're going

6:01

to be looking at the synthesis, bringing

6:03

that together, saying how well we're doing. And we're not

6:05

doing very well. We know that because they published that earlier

6:08

on. We know that we're way behind where we

6:10

should be. And the other thing on the agenda

6:12

is to change the way those nationally

6:15

determined contributions, those commitments that

6:17

people make about how to cut emissions and take action

6:19

on climate generally, how those are defined

6:21

to try and ratchet up ambition. Because

6:23

the idea at Paris was that you

6:26

gradually raise ambition over time.

6:28

And so this is the moment where we begin

6:31

to see, and almost certainly some of those will be pushed

6:33

into next year. The

6:35

deadline for all of this is 2025. And Brazil is

6:39

hosting COP30 in 2025. And that's when

6:41

they're going to have to come up with these new commitments

6:43

to tackling climate change. So plenty

6:46

to discuss, plenty to get. That's just the beginning,

6:48

Nick. I was going to say, there's quite a lot more. I

6:50

think people are looking forward to COP. And plenty

6:52

of questions as well. Let's hear from some

6:55

listeners. It's fair to say there is

6:57

some skepticism about

7:00

these in-person meetings

7:02

like COP28. I am Sachinana

7:04

from India. The climate conference being

7:06

held in Dubai is unlikely to solve any

7:08

problems. The jet flights which carry

7:11

these politicians travel long distances.

7:14

They consume millions of gallons of oil

7:16

and they release tons of carbon dioxide

7:18

and carbon monoxide into the air. Instead

7:21

of traveling such long distances, these

7:24

world leaders should stay home and

7:26

they can discuss climate problems using

7:28

various online media platforms.

7:31

Hello there. This is John Langridge from

7:33

Spain. I think the fact that there is

7:35

going to be yet another in-person climate

7:37

summit is frankly an

7:40

offensive outrage. How many

7:42

private jets or first-class travel

7:44

will there be? How many guided tours?

7:47

How many luxury hotels will be occupied?

7:49

How much greenwashing of the host nation

7:51

will there be? The whole thing should be done over

7:54

Zoom. So Justin, let's

7:56

look at this one. The value of

7:58

this in-person meeting. better

8:00

example not to fly I suppose but can you get as much

8:02

done? Well let's look at it in another way because

8:05

there's a lot of criticism of these COP conferences

8:07

and people say well nothing ever comes out of it and I

8:09

think we should take a really broad perspective

8:11

on this right you're an alien looking down on the

8:13

earth and thinking about the nature of the problem

8:16

that people are trying to tackle so everyone

8:18

all of us are responsible in our tiny way

8:21

for the problem because one way or another everything

8:23

we do involves burning fossil fuels

8:26

so we need to get the world together to talk

8:28

about how to do this and it just so happens that our

8:30

world is divided up into nation states which I

8:32

mean they don't determine what happens within their boundaries but

8:35

they kind of they sit above their

8:37

countries and so the first thing your alien

8:39

is going to say is like guys you need to talk about

8:41

this right you need to get together and

8:44

this is actually the biggest meeting

8:46

of world leaders on the planet every year

8:48

far bigger than for example the UN General

8:51

Assembly this is when world leaders get together it's

8:53

a unique thing and it's an extraordinary

8:55

thing right you know Russia is

8:57

going there will be a representatives from Ukraine there's

9:00

a Palestinian representative the representatives

9:02

from Israel warring countries will be

9:04

sitting together talking about how to solve this

9:06

problem that is frankly a

9:08

miracle right and we should acknowledge that and

9:11

recognize this is a really important meeting

9:13

point two so it's really important number one point

9:15

two do you get more done in person the example

9:18

of this is Covid right the

9:20

UN decided not to have a meeting

9:22

during Covid we all zoomed happened by then

9:24

and we knew that there were alternatives to it so

9:27

I remember saying to the UN that why on earth

9:29

that you just have it on zoom why are you delaying

9:31

because there's a year lost of climate

9:33

action that's lost and they said listen you

9:35

know we do conferences all the time that's basically what the

9:37

UN does is get people together to talk about stuff

9:40

they say we just know that you

9:42

get more effective action if you've got people sitting

9:44

face to face with each other and frankly the

9:46

scale of the problem we're facing and the minute

9:49

emissions caused by this relatively

9:51

speaking because remember we're talking about solving this

9:54

massive global problem this is a drop in the ocean

9:56

and this is one of the few opportunities the world

9:59

has to really do something to

10:01

turn the dial on this. And there's the serendipity,

10:03

isn't it? Sort of bumping into people on the sidelines,

10:05

Graeia. Yeah, absolutely.

10:07

You know, you think about it in the office as talking

10:09

to someone at the water cooler. You know, there's these informal

10:12

interactions that are really important in

10:14

building relationships. And ultimately, if you

10:16

have good relationships with people, you're more

10:19

inclined to get a better climate deal out

10:21

of it at the end of it.

10:22

We heard from our second listener

10:24

asking about greenwashing of the host nation

10:27

Dubai, or alleged greenwashing. A point

10:29

also picked up by Catherine, a listener from

10:31

Boston in the USA. She said, how

10:34

can world leaders effectively work to

10:36

reduce global emissions at COP28 with Sultan

10:39

Ahmed Al-Jaba, the head

10:41

of one of the world's biggest oil companies,

10:43

leading the negotiations? How will leaders

10:46

and delegates ensure that Al-Jaba

10:48

and the UAE do not act in

10:51

the interests of oil? Justin. Well,

10:53

I should declare an interest here because I'm working on a story that speaks

10:56

to this and is evidence of, in

10:58

a sense, bad faith on this issue by

11:00

the UAE and by Dr.

11:02

Sultan. But let me put their defence,

11:04

I mean, people will see my story as it comes

11:06

out. Let me put their defence and they say, listen,

11:09

yeah, we're an oil producer, but unless you draw

11:12

us into the discussion, and that's where part of the discussion,

11:14

yeah, we're part of the problem, but so are you, you

11:16

use our oil, and we all need to talk

11:18

about how to solve this. And I do think there

11:21

is force and validity in that argument.

11:23

Yeah, the other argument I've heard from Dr. Al-Jaba

11:26

is that because he is from

11:28

oil, from big oil, he runs Adnok,

11:31

the national oil company, that he precisely

11:33

because of that, he has that background, he knows

11:36

the industry, he can make oil producers

11:38

sit up and listen in a way that they haven't

11:40

done in past COPs.

11:41

I remember Poland was criticised in the

11:43

past, wasn't a big coal producer. Well,

11:45

hold on, hold on. The UK, you know, we're

11:47

doing the last gasp of oil and gas for oil. No,

11:50

absolutely. Egypt, which hosted it. So we

11:53

were two COPs ago. Egypt, the last COP,

11:55

has huge natural gas resources. Very

11:57

few people can afford to cast stones

11:59

at other.

11:59

I think the proof is in the pudding.

12:02

You know sometimes cops look not all that

12:04

promising when you're going into them And there's something

12:06

about the alchemy of bringing all these different people

12:08

together from all walks of life That

12:10

can create something that nobody expects

12:13

I think you have to just wait and see you can't prejudge

12:15

these things

12:16

so on this one You're doing the positive bet and I'm going to

12:18

do something a little bit negative on

12:20

the UAE Which is that you know I

12:22

was at the pre-cop meeting in Abu Dhabi Where

12:25

he did his kind of introduction and his ambitions

12:27

in front of I think 96 environment

12:30

ministers from around the world And he said

12:32

look we need the what with the target we need to achieve

12:34

is a 43% in cut in greenhouse

12:36

emissions by 2030 which

12:39

is what the UN's climate

12:41

body the IPCC says needs to

12:43

happen at the same time though The

12:45

UAE has published or ad not the

12:47

UAE state oil company which mr.

12:50

Al Jabbar Is in charge

12:52

of he's the CEO they publish their

12:54

plans for increasing capacity And they want to

12:56

increase capacity by 2030 by 600,000 barrels

13:00

of oil they produce about 2 million at

13:02

the moment So they're increasing by about a third

13:04

at a time when he's publicly saying the target

13:06

for this conference should be a reduction of 43% And

13:09

I mean and they're very least I'll say I think

13:11

there is a little whiff of hypocrisy about that Controversies

13:15

or all around here Let's move

13:17

on to a couple of other questions

13:20

from two school students in Indonesia

13:23

Hello, my name is Emily As

13:25

someone who lives in Indonesia the

13:27

temperature in this country receives a

13:30

dramatic increase The Sun's ultraviolet

13:33

UV rays cause damage to people's

13:35

skin Eyes and even

13:37

their immune system. How has the temperature

13:40

increased so much and what is the best way to

13:42

stop this?

13:43

Hi, my name is Shana. My question is

13:45

in the face of unpredicted climate challenges

13:48

Our global leaders collaborations adequate

13:50

or a stronger measures required and commitments

13:52

needed for effective change

13:54

Graham Emily's question first it

13:56

really gets to the heart of it doesn't it how

13:59

has the temperature increased? increased so much and

14:01

what's the best way to deal with it?

14:02

Primarily it's been by burning fossil

14:05

fuels to create energy so that's coal,

14:07

oil and gas and when we burn those

14:10

those three fuels we essentially create

14:13

carbon dioxide a key planet warming

14:15

gas and that acts like a big blanket

14:17

around the earth it traps the heat in and that's what's

14:20

causing our planet to warm. There

14:22

are other reasons why we get planet warming gases

14:24

into the sky cutting down forests which

14:26

acts the drawdown of carbon dioxide

14:29

producing food but energy really

14:31

is the key one it's something like two-thirds three-quarters

14:33

of our emissions so the solution

14:36

is to switch to low carbon and

14:38

renewable energy sources so that's harnessing

14:41

the wind, solar power, the

14:43

waves, the tides you know anything

14:45

that the earth is producing we harness

14:47

it.

14:48

And Justin let's look at Shima's question now

14:50

she asked about stronger measures and commitments

14:53

I don't know based on previous COPs can

14:55

we take their commitment seriously?

14:58

We talked about the synthesis report which looks at

15:00

people's actions and shows how far behind we are so

15:02

I think there is a real question about

15:04

whether countries are you know really

15:06

doubling down and taking the action they need

15:09

to but I'm really reluctant as you look

15:11

gathered to say that these conferences don't

15:13

deliver outcomes and there are things for example that

15:15

we're going to see at this COP which are positive

15:17

so there was a commitment one of the key things is going

15:20

to be finance right so how do you create

15:22

the finance needed mostly for the developing world

15:24

to afford the technologies which now exist

15:27

which is a frankly a miracle and is an amazingly

15:29

good news we've got renewable technologies

15:31

wind and solar that are now cheaper than

15:33

fossil fuels and therefore there's really

15:35

powerful economic arguments but there's a lot of cash

15:37

up front needed developing countries often

15:40

pay very high interest rates much higher

15:42

than in developed countries for historical reasons

15:44

they perhaps haven't paid their debts as much but it means it's

15:46

way more expensive for them to invest in

15:49

renewables and there are some really interesting

15:51

efforts to look at ways that you can reduce

15:53

the cost of renewables which involve

15:56

the multinational development bank so the

15:58

World Bank and the IMF are the key examples of that

16:00

and there's an effort to change the way they've done lead

16:02

and we've done it on the climate question

16:05

with the wonderful Mia Motley who's the president of Barbados,

16:08

a country with 200,000 people which is

16:10

less than one single London borough.

16:12

They're like the little kind of boroughs that London's

16:14

divided. Smaller population who led

16:16

this argument, which frankly she's won the argument and

16:18

they want to do this and change it, that will be a

16:21

huge debate at COP. There was a commitment

16:23

made way back in I think 2017 that we'd come up

16:26

with $100 billion a year to give

16:28

to developing countries for climate adaptation,

16:30

climate mitigation, cutting

16:32

their emissions. That will almost certainly be

16:35

delivered. It has been delivered. Well they say,

16:37

but it hasn't actually been certified. So

16:39

there are really positive things coming out of it. There was a loss

16:42

and damage fund that was a big debate at

16:45

Sharm el-Sheikh in Egypt last year. Well it was agreed

16:47

and they've now agreed. There's a big question

16:50

about whether anyone's going to put significant money

16:52

into that. But look, there are other things that

16:54

are going to happen that probably will begin to have

16:57

an effect.

16:57

Yeah and I'm kind of interested to see

16:59

what side deals are going to come out of this. You

17:01

love your side deals. I love side deals. They're

17:04

really interesting and they don't get as much coverage but

17:06

COP is a place where people come together and

17:08

make these side deals. So for instance the pact

17:10

when deforestation by 2030 or the Just Energy transition

17:14

partnerships where richer countries are paying developing

17:17

countries like South Africa to transition

17:20

away from coal. So these are really

17:22

exciting things that going on.

17:23

Greg, you just mentioned the issue

17:25

of deforestation. This list

17:27

is concerned about one of the other big topics discussed

17:30

at COP summits all the time. How to protect

17:32

and renew the world's forests to

17:35

try to remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.

17:38

This is Ralph Bruni in Alameda, California.

17:41

Efforts to plant millions, even billions

17:43

of trees to combat

17:46

climate change are a form of greenwashing.

17:49

Those such efforts will make participants

17:52

feel good and can burnish the image

17:54

of politicians. Why are we

17:56

not honest with ourselves? Trees

17:59

usually take 20 to 30 years

18:01

to reach full maturity. A sapling

18:04

is not expected to absorb the same

18:07

amount of carbon dioxide as would

18:09

a full-grown tree. You also

18:11

cannot plant and forget some

18:13

organization must tend to these

18:15

trees to create a monocultural

18:19

forest which also has less

18:21

biodiversity. So Graeia,

18:23

does Ralph have a point?

18:25

There are some issues with I think what he's describing

18:27

is offsetting right and this is the idea

18:29

that you buy a load of credits if you

18:32

like, you pay for some trees to be planted somewhere

18:34

and that somehow offsets your lifestyle or

18:36

your company or your business right.

18:39

And there are issues that surrounding offsets have

18:41

been lots of investigations into

18:43

them and some of them suggest that exactly

18:46

the things that the listener Ralph is pointing out

18:48

that sometimes these trees are planted they're never

18:50

looked at again and they die so they don't get

18:53

their full carbon potential so to speak but

18:55

also they might

18:56

catch fire and you release all

18:58

that carbon back into the atmosphere and some

19:00

offset schemes actually logging is

19:03

accounted for so these trees might eventually be logged

19:05

in the end. But I think the key thing here is there's

19:08

not enough land to plant the trees for

19:10

the amount of carbon we emit so it

19:12

doesn't get around the fact that we need to reduce

19:15

our emissions right. I said trees

19:17

are great, they're great for the climate, they draw

19:19

down carbon, they're great for people, they're great

19:21

for wildlife, they're great for biodiversity so I'm

19:23

not saying don't plant trees but they're just

19:25

not punchier that everyone thinks yeah.

19:27

I'd make exactly the same point don't let

19:29

the perfect be the enemy of the good and like it may

19:31

not that you know some of them may not work but the

19:33

some of them may help there's a big question

19:36

about trees die and at that point

19:38

they rot and they release their carbon dioxide so it has

19:40

to be a kind of end-of-life plan to store

19:42

the carbon embodied in them and the other

19:44

thing that I think the critics of carbon offsetting miss

19:47

is this is a really good way to draw

19:49

finance into the into

19:51

the whole process so you can get money

19:54

to do stuff that might be hard to do particularly

19:56

in developing countries might not always be perfect

19:58

and we journalists do tend to focus

20:00

on the sometimes rare imperfections

20:03

in these things. I'm not saying that's the case in all of Africa.

20:05

I think quite a lot of it has questions about it. But

20:07

look, it's a way of drawing money into things

20:10

that otherwise, I mean, if it's working, wouldn't

20:12

happen, mostly in developing countries. And that

20:14

is a good thing. Provides

20:16

jobs, income for local people. What a resource is to

20:19

make the transition and invest in renewable energy

20:21

and all those other things as well. So yeah, these

20:23

are potentially very positive. We've

20:25

got another great question on this theme as

20:27

well. This one from a

20:30

listener to the

20:35

climate question. Hi there, I'm Chris

20:37

Cummins and I'm a climate journalist at the

20:39

Austrian Broadcasting Corporation's FNC

20:42

in Vienna. I've just been on a trip to

20:44

the Sohado in Brazil. That's a savannah

20:47

forest area so the trees are shorter and

20:49

further apart than in some forests, but they have an

20:51

incredibly rich root system full

20:53

of carbon, of course. The Sohado

20:56

is being destroyed at an alarming

20:58

rate. I've heard there's a move to broaden

21:00

the definition of a forest at COP 28 or

21:02

at least make protection better for quote non

21:05

forested areas that are carbon sinks. The

21:08

UN guidelines on forest protection are currently

21:11

quite narrow, say conservationists. So it

21:13

made me wonder, in your opinion, when

21:16

is a forest a forest? Turn

21:18

into philosophy port, hasn't it? Graeha,

21:20

what do you reckon?

21:21

Look, I mean, under current

21:23

definitions, what our listener is describing

21:25

there is not a forest, right? But there are plenty

21:28

of other non forest ecosystems, as he points

21:30

out, that are really important for climate

21:32

change. He mentioned savannahs, but there's also grasslands

21:35

and peat bogs and mangroves. These are

21:37

all really important resources that don't necessarily

21:39

involve trees, but it's still really important when

21:42

you're looking at the sort of carbon cycle.

21:45

And I've read that grasslands can

21:47

hold something like two times more carbon than

21:49

tropical forests. So they're not

21:50

to be ignored. What happens when they die?

21:52

I mean, some of it is taken up by the soil. In

21:54

the soil, I was going to say, but that's especially the case with peat

21:56

bogs.

21:56

What about sea grass? Sea grass as well. Even

21:58

with peat bogs, right? I mean so like

22:01

some of the Pete and the people's here in Britain,

22:03

you know is pre the

22:05

you know comes from the ice age You know, it's been

22:07

there for so long, but there is a quick Yeah,

22:09

twelve thousand years, but there is but there is a question

22:11

about you know at some stage that

22:14

will rot away So it's a it's a you

22:16

know We have to be careful with these carbon stores that

22:18

they will one day release But I think you're right essentially

22:21

kind of what little shards of

22:23

nature we have left in the world compared to Really

22:26

requested a hundred years ago. We

22:28

need to look after everything we got

22:29

Yeah And exactly I think this is the fear by

22:31

a lot of campaigners who have actually written a letter

22:34

to cop 28 saying that we need

22:37

More focus on these non forest system because otherwise

22:40

we jeopardize how we fight climate

22:42

change

22:42

So all these natural systems are important.

22:44

They take global cooperation

22:47

or certainly the local level anyway

22:49

What about other things that we as

22:52

individuals have control over?

22:54

What about? What we eat

22:56

for example, let's listen to a question on that

22:59

Hi, my name is Bridget Ringdahl.

23:00

I am from KwaZulu-Natal

23:03

in South Africa and my question

23:06

to all those meeting at the Climate

23:08

summit is when our food choices

23:10

and the promotion of a plant-based

23:12

diet going to be on the agenda It's

23:15

the easiest thing to change as nobody

23:17

has to wait for technology or politicians

23:19

to make decisions We can all start

23:22

eating less and more products now

23:24

today Apart from being a

23:27

major contributor to the climate collapse Animal

23:30

agriculture is responsible for huge biodiversity

23:32

loss the creation of dead zones in the ocean

23:34

and a major use and polluter of fresh

23:37

water In my mind, it's

23:39

a win-win for everybody and everything So

23:41

grey is this something that a delegates at cop

23:43

will be talking about you think

23:45

I just want to come back to something She said in

23:47

that I feel like you could argue

23:49

this point for most solutions that we

23:51

have we know how to solve the climate

23:53

crisis We know we need renewables. We

23:56

know we need less fossil fuels. We

23:58

have all the technology and knowledge here

24:00

and the question is how do we put

24:02

that into place and so there are stumbling blocks

24:05

here along the way but with something like

24:07

behavioural change I do think that's quite hard

24:10

to tackle because remember the people that are making

24:12

these policies are politicians

24:15

and those politicians have to be voted in so they want

24:17

to create popular policies telling

24:20

a population they're not allowed to eat certain

24:22

foods is not likely to be

24:24

a vote winner so I think it's quite difficult

24:26

politically to do and the

24:28

other thing I just want to caveat is is that

24:31

this we need to eat less meat applies very

24:33

much to the Western world there are huge ways

24:36

of the world where actually meat is a really important

24:38

part of people's diets malnourished

24:41

basically is what I'm saying and so this sort

24:43

of advice doesn't really apply to

24:45

a large population of the world that's not

24:48

not the answer Justin. But

24:50

in the developed in many developed countries there

24:52

is already a process that's

24:54

happening without the intervention of politicians where

24:57

people are beginning to eat less meat

24:59

and I think any order if people you

25:01

know if somebody told me I couldn't eat meat I probably would

25:03

go out and eat meat that very day just you

25:06

know sheer cuss it is I think we can't order

25:08

people to do it and we give people examples

25:10

of foods that are delicious but are hopefully

25:13

cheaper and equally and

25:15

healthier and more nutritious you know that

25:17

they can eat instead and and

25:19

then they can occasionally have meat as a you

25:22

know on a celebration for example and that's

25:24

that's a model that would work don't we shouldn't think

25:26

you have to be plant-based we could be

25:28

omnivorous but just

25:29

eat a bit less meat. Yeah and I think the

25:31

other thing I've heard that really sticks out to

25:33

me is that there is a tipping point in sort of

25:35

like the population in terms of behavior so apparently

25:37

if 25% of the population start

25:40

enacting this behavior so in this case eating

25:42

a plant based diet it becomes normalized and

25:44

so much of the rest of the population do it and

25:47

I think that's what you're describing we're starting to see

25:49

that in areas of the world. And also

25:51

you look obviously it's better we

25:53

do this quickly because we want to cut emissions but

25:56

if we you know big changes can

25:58

happen you know with small individual

26:00

changes so it can make a big difference over

26:02

time I guess is what I'm saying. Okay so lifestyle

26:05

choices will come slowly

26:07

perhaps and then rather more quickly

26:10

as it becomes socially far more normalized.

26:12

Gradually and then suddenly. Yeah

26:15

exactly. Justin, you mentioned a little bit earlier about

26:17

clean energy sources as one of the key themes

26:19

of COP28. This listener is

26:21

wondering about an alternative to fossil

26:24

fuels.

26:25

My name is Heather and I'm from the state of Vermont

26:27

in the US.

26:28

With nuclear fusion now having been achieved

26:30

and the prospect of using it as a widespread source

26:33

of infinite energy being projected

26:35

in the next 25 to 30 or so years, what updates and

26:39

infrastructure will need to take place in advance

26:41

to prepare us for a quick and smooth conversion

26:44

to energy derived from nuclear fusion?

26:46

Wow there are so many ifs and buts in

26:48

this one Justin. It's been knocking around for decades.

26:51

It's kind of always 30 years away and

26:53

yeah they've proved they for the first

26:55

time they've had an experiment which had an energy

26:57

surplus on the energy put in, not any

26:59

of the embodied energy in constructing

27:02

the device which was huge in the first place.

27:05

Look it seems to me that we probably will

27:07

be able to master nuclear fusion one day,

27:09

i.e. we'll be able to have long running reactions,

27:13

the reactions that take place within the reactor that

27:15

generate a surplus of energy but it's hard

27:17

to see given how difficult it is. We've been

27:19

trying to do this for like 70 years. It's

27:22

really really tricky. It's hard to see how it's

27:24

ever, and this is a crucial word, going to be

27:26

economic right? And at the moment as we've

27:28

already discussed we've got box

27:31

ready solutions, solar and

27:33

wind for example, that we can start

27:35

putting in place now that are already cheaper

27:37

than fossil fuel so there's a really powerful economic

27:40

argument for using them. That would be great

27:42

if we mastered fusion but I think let's buckle

27:45

down with the things we've got and start making them work.

27:47

I'm not saying don't invest in fusion. You know

27:49

I believe in technology and I want the investments to

27:51

be made but let's not think that it's going to happen. I'm

27:53

really sorry in 25 years. It's probably not going to happen in 50 years. No I

27:55

was going

27:56

to say I think most experts

27:58

agree that it's not going to happen in time. what we

28:00

need for net zero in terms of 2050.

28:02

Do the simple things now which

28:04

are getting better and more economically

28:07

viable and don't think about

28:09

a pipe dream for

28:10

the future. And I think the other thing, right, is that we're going to need

28:12

lots of new technologies to be able to

28:14

make this a reality. This is a totally different

28:16

kind of reaction than we see in conventional nuclear

28:19

power plants. So we're going to need new plants.

28:21

The grid's going to have to be redesigned because it's going

28:23

to have huge surges of power and

28:25

then very little. Also, there are some, not

28:28

only sort of some scientific things that we need

28:30

to get going, there are some technological and engineering

28:32

things that we also need to solve before

28:34

we can even think about it powering

28:35

our grids. Listen, we are nearly

28:38

out of time, but just one last question

28:41

for both of you.

28:42

Hello, my name is Nicola

28:44

from London in the UK. My

28:46

question is, if everyone

28:49

could do one thing to help that

28:51

would have the most impact, what would

28:53

it be? Justin,

28:54

you first. I think we

28:56

look at this another way, right? It's like, what do you want

28:58

to do? What do you want to do? I mean, I'm not saying

29:00

I wouldn't advocate that everybody has a plant-based diet, for

29:03

example. Eat less meat. But

29:05

think what you're good at and what do you want to do and then apply

29:07

yourself to it. Because if you want to affect change,

29:09

choose what you want to change and then just get to work

29:11

on it. And it could be something local. You could

29:13

be working on a project to restore your

29:16

part. That is doing your bit. You could be

29:18

wanting to campaign or something. That could be

29:20

doing it. But you could want to advise your MP, all

29:22

sorts of things. Look around and look at the levers

29:24

that you can pull, what you're good at, what you're interested in

29:26

and then just go and do it. Yeah,

29:27

because that's the most sustainable thing, ultimately. You

29:29

know, thinking about your agency, what change can

29:32

you affect? But if you're a bit stuck,

29:34

you can go online. There are lots of sort of personal

29:36

carbon footprint trackers that you can look

29:39

at your carbon footprint roughly and see which

29:41

areas that you can improve. And that might be a useful

29:43

starting point

29:44

for someone who, you know, has no idea

29:46

what they want to do. Yeah. What

29:49

can... Sorry. One last thought.

29:52

I think that's going to be perfect. Begin to do something.

29:54

It's better than doing nothing. So don't do nothing

29:57

because, you know, you want to fly on holiday. You can

29:59

fly on holiday and do... something and then maybe in the future

30:01

you'll think maybe I don't want to fly on holiday but just start

30:03

doing something now I think is a really good injunction

30:06

I think we all worry that we're going to be criticized for not being

30:08

perfect and don't want to kind of put our heads above

30:10

the parapet and start acting start acting

30:14

strong strong finish

30:15

all I was going to say was and don't underestimate

30:17

how important those those steps are because

30:20

other people see them and they

30:22

start to do the same we talked about the ripple effect

30:24

it's really exciting

30:27

potential it's not about depriving

30:29

yourself as you would say it's doing

30:31

something that can be constructive and positive

30:33

yourself

30:43

well that was fun wasn't it thank you so much Nick

30:45

for taking the reins this week and to Justin

30:47

Rolat as well for helping me answer those

30:50

questions if you'd like your

30:52

climate question answered on a future

30:54

show just email us it's the

30:56

climate question at BBC.com

30:58

and if you can send us a voice note bonus

31:01

points to you the producers this week

31:03

were Osman Iqbal, Steven Jensen

31:05

and Phoebe Hopson. The series producer

31:08

is Simon Watts, the editor is China

31:10

Collins with Karen Martin and mixing

31:12

was done by Mike Campbell

31:20

food is incredibly important in the world

31:23

it's about survival culinary heritage

31:25

culture and tradition different

31:28

relationships across the world the

31:30

food chain from the BBC World Service examines

31:33

the business science

31:34

and cultural significance of food.

31:36

If this kind of food is lost our

31:39

community will lose its identity. On

31:41

what it takes to put food on your plate.

31:44

This is an incredible journey search

31:46

for the food chain wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

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