0:00

Welcome to the Clubhouse with Shane Bacon, a production

0:02

of I Heart Radio Welcome

0:10

to the Clubhouse with Shane Bacon. I am

0:12

your host Shane Bacon

0:14

in a fun one Today. Michael Bamberger,

0:16

author of The Second Life of Tiger

0:18

Woods, which came out yesterday,

0:21

joins too simply discuss

0:24

Tiger Woods. What better

0:26

during this time in human

0:29

history than to have a book come out

0:31

about the most interesting golfer

0:34

maybe athlete in the last

0:37

years. It's a It's a great read.

0:39

It takes you through not just the

0:41

two thousand nineteen masters, of course that

0:44

would be in professional golf,

0:46

his second life, but takes you through simply Tiger

0:49

is a human being and what's been different

0:52

over the last two or three years versus

0:54

how he was when he came out as a professional, and

0:57

all of the things that have changed, all of the

0:59

things that have played into his life that have led

1:01

to those changes. An unbelievable

1:03

read. I urge you to pick it up, order

1:06

online, or just get it on your Kindle or whatever

1:08

device you read on. I loved it, couldn't

1:10

put it down, knocked it out in a couple of days. I think

1:12

you will enjoy it as well, if you're

1:14

a fan of golf, which you probably are if you listening to this podcast,

1:17

and if you're a fan of Tiger Woods, which

1:19

maybe you are. If you're listening to this podcast, you're

1:21

gonna enjoy the book, So pick it up. Bamburger

1:23

was great. Always love chatting with them first

1:26

time on the podcast, and uh and yeah,

1:28

we went a lot longer than maybe I thought we would because

1:30

we had a lot to talk about. Hopefully

1:32

you guys are staying sane and keeping

1:35

yourself safe and being smart during

1:37

this unreal time in our history.

1:40

I know it's it's been. There have been

1:42

days that have been testing, there have been days that have

1:44

seemed to kind of roll by, and

1:47

all the while, we are, at least in my household,

1:49

trying to follow all the gold guidelines

1:52

that have been put out. And I hope you're doing the same

1:54

thing. Because we can get through this as

1:56

a group, as a society, as a country,

1:58

as a world. I know we can do it. I'm

2:00

trying to stay positive. Hopefully you are as

2:02

well. One last thing for we get to Michael,

2:05

if you haven't checked out, get a grip. That's

2:08

my new. I guess new is news still fair? To say

2:10

my quota. I just did quote new I did

2:12

air quotes my new golf

2:15

podcast with PJ Tour

2:17

winner Max Homa. Max

2:20

and I have had now ten episodes of Get

2:22

a Grip. We try to do one once a week. Of

2:24

course, the early ones were a

2:26

little bit more current golf specific.

2:28

The last few have been a little bit more all over the

2:30

place. But we're trying to have some fun with it.

2:32

We have started to do read your Questions,

2:35

and we have started to do some

2:37

lists like favorite nicknames in sports

2:40

history and and all of that. So we're trying

2:42

to have a little bit of fun and pass the time and

2:44

give people something to listen to. Of course,

2:46

as Quarantine continues on, that's

2:49

enough for me. Let's get to Michael and

2:51

we welcome to the clubhouse for the first time. Michael

2:53

Bamberger, author of now

2:56

Out The Second Life of Tiger Woods.

2:59

Of course, Michael the scene writery Golf Magazine

3:01

and golf dot Com, and Michael, I want

3:03

to start with this. They

3:05

talk a lot about the smaller the

3:07

ball, the better the story. I've

3:10

always felt the more famous the person,

3:12

the tougher the profile, because

3:14

we know so much about him. Why would

3:16

you want to take on a Tiger Woods

3:18

profile a Tiger Woods book. That

3:21

is a great question. Uh.

3:23

Gary Dematto uh, writing

3:25

up the book UH for one of the Wisconsin

3:28

Golf or his own Wisconsin Golf

3:30

publication, said there have been millions

3:32

of words written about this guy? Do we really

3:35

need eighty five thousand more? And

3:37

it was and it was funny that he said that, because

3:39

I've written a million words about this guy, and

3:41

I wondered myself if we need eighty five thousand

3:43

more? And I guess the answer

3:46

is there's a lot of differints to answer, but

3:48

one concise answer would

3:50

be there was a very definitive biography.

3:52

You probably read a Shane uh that came

3:54

out two years ago, just called

3:56

Tiger by Jeff Benedict and

3:59

armed contained. It's a really find book. Uh.

4:02

And as a matter of fact, I would say it's a starting

4:04

point if you haven't read any books about Tiger. Would say

4:06

that book and and the and the Haney book,

4:08

to me would be the first two books that I would read.

4:10

But it's big. But a lot

4:12

has happened since that book came out, and so

4:15

this book really covers a two year

4:17

period in Tiger Woods. This life that

4:20

is extraordinary on an athletic

4:22

level and on a human level. Well, that

4:24

leads to one of my next questions. You know you you mentioned

4:27

Haney the big miss. Of course, the Tiger

4:29

book that you reference first is

4:31

a deep, deep dive into everything

4:34

you'd ever want to know and probably some stuff maybe

4:36

you don't about Tiger. When

4:38

you decided to take on this project,

4:40

and I know you're a reader, I know you obviously pay

4:42

attention to that world. How many

4:45

Tiger books did you make sure

4:47

that you had read and finished before

4:49

starting your project? Well?

4:52

Zero, because uh, you know, I read

4:54

the Benedict book, and I read the Haney

4:56

book, and I've read some of the other books, so

4:58

you know, I'm well at air of what of what

5:01

they have. But once I started writing my

5:03

own book, and even started thinking about writing

5:05

my own book, I didn't pay occasion.

5:07

I would definitely go back to the Benedict Cataian

5:10

book because they had so much information and

5:12

just be at the index. In terms

5:14

of sitting down and absorbing somebody

5:16

else's take on Tiger, I didn't

5:18

go there at all because I didn't I didn't want it in my head.

5:21

So Tiger Woods, this is a guy

5:24

that has been in your life for

5:26

the better part of twenty years, if not longer,

5:28

maybe twenty five years, if you will, if maybe

5:30

even into the early junior ams. You

5:33

know, when he was doing stuff we hadn't seen

5:35

before. The title of your book

5:37

is the Second Life of Tiger

5:39

Woods. I feel like that could be taken in so

5:42

many different ways. I've I've

5:44

watched Tiger's life changed dramatically

5:47

day to day, night tonight, headline

5:49

to headline. This is a guy that everything

5:53

that has happened personally professionally

5:55

we have absorbed over the last

5:57

twenty years of his professional rear.

6:01

You're calling this the second life. I

6:03

feel like the main focus of that

6:05

title is simply about him

6:07

professionally. But as I as

6:09

I dove deeper and deeper into your book, I

6:12

felt that the Second Life

6:14

of Tiger, at least the way you presented

6:16

it, was his personality.

6:18

I mean, this is a guy that came

6:21

into our lives a stone faced

6:24

killer on the golf course, and now

6:26

he's a guy that will answer questions,

6:28

that does certain things I loved. At the very

6:30

end of your book, you said you mentioned a note

6:33

Greg Norman at handed Tiger and Tiger never

6:35

said anything about it, about the win, and one

6:37

of the last few pages of the book, you said, you know, Tiger

6:40

saw Greg and thanked him for the note. It

6:42

were those, there were those little tidbits that made

6:44

you feel like the second life of Tiger wasn't

6:46

anything about his golf. It was all about

6:48

how he's presented now and how

6:50

he approaches life. Well, that's

6:53

a very good insight, I would I agree with all

6:55

of that. Uh, you know what you know from having

6:57

read the book. My take on the

6:59

idea of the second life of Tiger

7:01

Woods actually having a starting date in

7:04

my mind, uh, in my writing.

7:07

In other words, you

7:09

know, I don't know this was sound self absorbed,

7:11

but this is what authors often

7:14

do. My take is that his second

7:16

life began the day he was arrested on

7:18

that horrible Memorial Day night in a

7:20

in two thousand and seventeen,

7:23

and he had to he

7:25

was really at a cross roads. Uh. I have

7:27

a personal take on the sex scandal, which

7:29

you know, in one sense was you know,

7:33

a tragedy for Ellen and

7:35

uh and and his in his family

7:37

life, but none of our business.

7:40

A lot of people think that, oh, when he came back from

7:42

that went to rehab after that, came back from that

7:45

that that was maybe you know, a new chapter

7:47

in the in the in the Life and Times of Tiger Woods.

7:49

I don't really think it was. I think

7:51

that I think the real moment of reckoning

7:54

came on that Memorial Day in two thousand

7:56

and seventeen. Uh.

7:58

And I think he had to dig deep and find

8:00

out who he really was. So all the things Shane

8:02

that you just talked about, expressing

8:04

more gratitude in in

8:06

interviews, being more patient with fans,

8:09

being more engaged with officials

8:12

and tournament sponsors and and other

8:14

players. Um, I think that all

8:17

is a function of him digging

8:19

deeper into who

8:21

he really is, and uh

8:24

and shedding some of that you know,

8:26

stone cold killer that you just described,

8:30

and uh and finding a humanity

8:32

that some of us really would never have might

8:34

not have ever known really existed when

8:37

you rewatch the two thousand

8:39

nineteen Masters. And we'll talk a lot about that,

8:41

because that was the victory that

8:43

that weaved itself through your book. Was

8:46

his his fifteenth major, finally getting

8:48

that Masters in two thousand nineteen,

8:50

you know, the last obviously major, coming Tory

8:52

Pines, when HD was barely

8:54

a thing. I mean when you were we were watched it a couple

8:57

of weekends ago. You know, it's a lot different

8:59

in O eight it is in nineteen.

9:01

But I always, you know,

9:03

when I close my eyes and think of Tiger Woods,

9:05

and I think of Tiger Woods the golfer. You

9:07

know, I go to moments, the huge fist pump

9:09

at Sawgrass when he was playing in the Ameter, and

9:11

I think of you know, the celebrations

9:13

throwing his hat at bay Hill, you

9:16

know, the two fists up in the air to get into the

9:18

playoff with Rocko. The one thing that

9:20

I continually noticed that

9:22

Sunday at Augusta

9:25

was how that none of those things happened.

9:27

It was it was almost like he had a

9:30

full cell phone battery of

9:33

of ability that day. This is what

9:35

I have in me. I can't waste

9:38

any of it because I've got to get my cell phone

9:40

to the end of the day with battery power. And

9:42

then it all came out when he finally won

9:44

on the eighteenth Green. But everything about

9:46

that Sunday was just a little bit different. I mean,

9:48

three stomes going off early. You

9:51

know, it's Tiger, He's there,

9:53

but he's chasing and he's chasing a guy

9:55

that face Tiger in a major championship

9:58

the year before and wasn't aired.

10:00

It is so interesting to see this

10:03

quote unquote new Tiger

10:05

and how he approaches these huge moments

10:07

versus what we've seen for the better

10:10

part of his career. All

10:12

right, Shane, now now you're making me mad. I mean, it's

10:14

bad enough that you're such a good golfer, you're such a handsome

10:17

guy, but now you're coming up with analogies that a way

10:19

better than I. I'm

10:21

a guy that always has a dead cell phone battery,

10:23

so it makes total sense to me. That's

10:26

that's perfect. I would completely

10:29

agree with that he was playing I

10:31

mean, just to get it down into the mechanics of

10:33

Sunday at Augusta. Everything you said, I completely

10:35

agree with. Uh, But he

10:37

was playing chess. Now you're not playing chess

10:40

that moment. You know you're on seventeen team. You got

10:42

to drill on. That's pure athleticism.

10:44

But everything else is chess, and chess requires

10:47

tremendous reservoirs of

10:50

of ptitions and UH and

10:52

and intellectual output, and then you gotta go when

10:54

it's time to go. So I think you're

10:56

right. He was pacing himself all the while. He

10:59

knew he was the guy with the four coats and

11:01

and none of those guys had any and

11:03

that gave big advantage, and that mistakes

11:05

would be made by others,

11:07

and if he could avoid making mistakes, uh,

11:11

that he could get to the house with a little bit

11:13

of charged left in that battery. And

11:15

as we saw, there was a

11:17

very little left in that battery. And luckily

11:19

for him, uh, it didn't go to a playoff,

11:22

because who knows what those fresher younger

11:24

players might have done, uh in a

11:26

playoff. Yeah, you you talked a little bit about

11:28

that. You mentioned his fear of

11:30

that Bogey bogey finish at Augusta.

11:33

We saw it against De Marco. You know, he chips

11:35

in and things go crazy. And this goes back

11:37

a little bit to the energy, right, that was

11:39

so much energy he used in

11:41

celebration and firing up the crowd him

11:43

and Stevie high five and kind of missing the

11:45

high five. But then he bogey's seventeen

11:47

and eighteen. It was a little bit like Kenny Perry

11:49

and all of a sudden he's in a playoff and now he's got

11:52

to refocus, re click in. And of course

11:54

he won that Masters as well. But I'm with you, he

11:56

did not win any extra holes. He wanted that thing

11:59

to end, and it ended. I want to go back

12:01

to the book. Just early on you talk

12:03

a little. I mentioned Greg Norman already. I'm

12:05

not sure I ever understood

12:09

how close Tiger in

12:11

his life and his career followed what

12:13

Norman did in his life and

12:15

his career. Well, how

12:18

clearly, how closely Tiger followed.

12:21

Oh are you talking about the mechanics of hiring

12:23

Steve Williams. There was

12:25

a lot of that. There were so many similarities

12:28

with those two guys. And

12:30

then he and then he hired Norman's lawn guy.

12:35

And by the way, to call him a lawn

12:37

guy an understatement. It's

12:39

ridiculous art. He's an artist with a

12:41

lawnmower or estate

12:44

managers. Maybe I might be the right term. I'm

12:46

not man sure. Yes, Well, I

12:48

mean, start with Butch Harmon. Start with the

12:50

fact that Greg Norman was the best player

12:52

in the world, drove the ball on a string,

12:55

had all the shots pretty

12:57

much, uh, and had Butch Harmon

12:59

as a seat. And then uh,

13:02

it was the number one player in the world, and every

13:04

which way that Tiger could supplant

13:07

the guy. And he goes back to what you said

13:09

earlier, shaneem of being a stone cold killer. He

13:11

was going to supplant him. Uh so

13:14

uh teacher, Uh state

13:16

residents approach to practice. You

13:18

know, Butch says this all the time, or he used to. Uh,

13:21

you know, the hardest working student

13:23

he ever had was Greg Norman until

13:25

he until he had developed a relationship with

13:27

this teenage golfer Tiger Woods, and Tiger Woods

13:30

had more capacity for work and

13:32

more ability to absorb information

13:34

than even Greg Norman. Uh.

13:36

It's kind of weird because you know, you know, Greg was

13:39

the only one, you know, the two British opens his majors.

13:42

He's sort of gotten a short shrift and you know he's

13:44

got such a big personality stort of gott a short shrift

13:46

here. But before there was Tiger, there

13:49

was Norman. Yeah, I mean, and we always

13:51

here, you know, I'm I'm thirty six.

13:53

I didn't have a chance to watch a lot of the Greg Norman

13:56

prime days, but he was the

13:58

type of player that dominated

14:00

with his distance, dominated with his ball striking.

14:02

Brad Faxton's told me a story that he

14:05

was playing I think Brad and Norman were playing

14:08

in a practice round and Brad,

14:10

you know, famously not a great driver. The golf

14:12

ball was spraying it a little bit all over the place, and

14:14

I guess Norman went up to Butch and goes, is

14:16

this guy a pro? And Butch goes, yeah, he's

14:18

beating you by two. You know, Norman was the hit

14:21

it down the middle of the fairway, hit it three and

14:23

twenty yards, had that look on his face

14:26

all the time. But the differences, of course being

14:28

that Norman, when it seemed

14:31

like the brakes were gonna go his way, they didn't,

14:33

And with Tiger, the brakes always

14:35

always went his way. And it even happened

14:38

in nineteen. I mean, he's got two guys, he's got

14:40

a guy in front of him. In two thousand nineteen, they're

14:42

all chasing the same goal and all

14:44

these guys rinted and Tigers the guy that plays

14:46

it to the middle of the green smartly on twelve. And

14:49

that was really the story of that championship. Yes,

14:51

although sometimes people forget about what a mess

14:54

mullinar he played the fifteen bad first

14:57

I did. I did as well. When I was reading the book that

15:00

is altered just a quick funny note.

15:02

Since you work in TV, you'll especially appreciate

15:04

the same. When um, when

15:06

Harrington won that second Open that

15:09

was at Birkdale, correct and

15:12

uh. And he was, I believe playing with Norman in the fourth

15:14

round, and Norman was newly married to

15:16

Christie Evert and he I think he would have been

15:18

I'm sure he would have been the oldest winner of a major. Could

15:21

he have pulled it off? And his putting

15:23

stroke is spectacular And fathers doing the commentary,

15:25

I don't know for whom, but I know I heard him say

15:27

this, uh and uh, and he looks

15:30

at Norman's putting stroke and he says, it's

15:32

not fair. It's

15:36

there's absolutely no yipp

15:38

in it whatsoever. A little a little

15:40

bit of what we are we are seeing

15:42

and continue to see with Tiger. One

15:44

thing and again one of my favorite

15:47

things about there's two things I love

15:49

about your writing style. And

15:51

I mean, I'm just gonna say it. I continually

15:53

believe you're one of the best, if not the best, that

15:55

covers this beat in the entire world at what

15:57

you do. So reading a book that you and

16:00

obviously a lot of time on was a treat for

16:02

me. But two things you do that are amazing.

16:04

One is you're just a perfect word smith.

16:06

Let me just give people an example. You were talking

16:08

about Tiger and last year

16:10

at the Masters and on Sunday, correct

16:13

me if I'm wrong here, but on Sunday before

16:15

the Masters. So that's the drive, chip

16:17

and put day. The only people allowed

16:19

on the big course, if you will, are

16:22

members and past champions. Is that right?

16:25

Yes, that's so. Tiger was playing

16:27

an afternoon nine whole practice

16:29

around and you wrote this and I just

16:32

loved it. I screened. I had to take a picture of

16:34

the page. You said. The PGA Tour produces

16:36

a mountain of stats under headlines like strokes

16:39

gained putting and strokes gained ball

16:41

striking. What nobody can measure is

16:43

strokes gained thinking, strokes

16:45

gained preparing, strokes gained

16:47

imagining, and you you just felt

16:50

like what you were seeing with Tiger, he

16:52

just had a couple of edges and a putter, and he was

16:54

out there going over a golf course that

16:56

we all know he understands

16:59

and has seen more than anybody in the field, maybe

17:01

outside of Phil Mickelson. Yet he's out there

17:03

this Sunday before the Masters, just

17:06

just using everything he can, using

17:08

all the time allowed to prepare

17:11

for what he knew was a chance at another

17:13

major championship. Well

17:15

shame. First off, I want to thank you for those that

17:18

extraordinarily generous

17:20

uh comment about my writing. I really

17:22

really appreciate it. And then uh,

17:24

and you you know this, but other

17:27

others wouldn't. Any

17:29

writer nonfiction gets

17:31

a lot of help and I've got a lot of and

17:33

uh and and too, so two things that come

17:35

to mind when you're talking about that. Uh.

17:38

No, of course I wasn't out there walking with Tiger woods

17:41

and play the nine holes. But you know, between

17:43

talking a little bit, hearing Tiger

17:45

talk about it, a little bit, hearing Joe Kaba talk about

17:47

it, Chaldo who was out there, Terry

17:49

Holt, Bernard Langer's caddy, who's out there?

17:52

So they all these sources together

17:54

helped me get a deeper sense of

17:57

what it was. But Faldo was the most

17:59

selpful because because

18:01

he saw it through a champion's eyes, that

18:03

he understood what I might not have

18:05

understood. How to not talked to Faldo, uh

18:08

that he was getting in the mood, in the

18:10

mood to play that that golf course. Uh,

18:14

so you do get so so I do

18:17

want to acknowledge all the help that a nonfiction marter

18:20

gets, whereas the picture writers, you know, often just sitting

18:22

in the room, although he or she gets a lot of help too.

18:24

And then another thing, he said, I have no idea if

18:26

the story is apocryphal or not, but even

18:28

if it is, it conveys so much.

18:31

There's a famous story about Jack Nicholiffs going to

18:33

the driving range of the practice tea and

18:35

uh and there's a ball sitting there and

18:37

he stands over the ball with no club and he

18:39

just looks at the ball, and then he walks back to

18:41

the cliphouse. He says, yeah, I'm done for the day.

18:44

And the point is, you know so much. I've

18:46

never heard that one before. I have not, And

18:49

you know, it doesn't sound true. It doesn't

18:51

sound big Jack, but but it does make

18:53

it sounds a little bit more like Hogan. But it does

18:55

make the point that that's

18:57

at that level, when you've got the physical

19:00

parts basically worked out, then it's

19:03

how prepared are you mentally for

19:05

what you want to do to the golf course? How much do you have

19:07

a blueprint of what it's going to look like? And

19:09

Tiger is the king of

19:11

this and U And one one

19:14

example that that comes to mind is was,

19:16

now, let's see, he's won two opens

19:18

at the old course. So this I'm

19:21

I'm not remembering the year immediately. No, okay,

19:23

not two thousand. That was his first of

19:25

the second time. Okay,

19:28

thank you, so oh five when he won the second one, and

19:31

uh And it was a clinic and

19:33

he came into the and he

19:36

came into the depressed send. Everyone's leaning

19:38

in and he starts the sentence with I'll

19:40

tell you what, and people are leaking, you know,

19:42

all the writers are leaning in. It's like, oh, Tiger is

19:44

going to give us a revelation. And this is this

19:46

is close to what he said before

19:49

I went out there today. That was the best

19:51

warm obsession I've had in years,

19:53

or you know, the best warm obsession I had in my life. And everyone's

19:56

like, oh man, could you possibly give

19:58

us something we can use? Uh. I

20:01

remember just sinkly thinking it

20:03

was boring, but it was truthful. In other

20:05

words, he had played the golf

20:07

course in his mind and

20:09

played the shots that he thought he was going to need

20:12

in the on the practice tea,

20:14

and then it was just a simple question of of executing.

20:17

It's not so simple, but it is a question of executing

20:19

it. Uh, that's how his mind

20:21

works. And uh, it's not colorful

20:24

and it's not romantic like seve A

20:26

or Trevino or you know, remember else you might put

20:28

in that group, but it is Tiger. And

20:31

the proof of the pudding is what two tour

20:33

wins, including fifteen major championships. So

20:36

it's pretty hard to beat that. Yeah, the

20:38

focus of this book in terms of golf

20:40

is of course the Masters last year. But I

20:43

I guess i'd maybe either I

20:45

don't remember how important it was or

20:48

I have glossed over it considering

20:51

what else had happened in two thousand and eighteen. But

20:53

something I felt like he brought up well was the two

20:55

thousand eighteen Honda and just the

20:57

way Tiger played that week, it

21:00

seemed like that was what the

21:02

world, the Tiger fans, the golf fans

21:04

that follow this guy, that was really

21:06

what we were waiting for. Yes,

21:08

and the that was the special week that

21:11

that hont Tournament. I've always enjoyed that hond Tournament

21:13

and going all the way back to Eagle Trace days.

21:15

But there's something about it. But so well,

21:19

yeah, I mean, shame you have your such

21:21

a noledgeal golfers and uh but you

21:24

know, for for more casual gopers,

21:26

they're they're owed by the driving

21:28

game always, and and and some of the other aspects.

21:31

But at at tigers level, the thing that

21:33

really gets people's attention is ability

21:36

to hit irons on the

21:38

face the distance you want to hit them,

21:40

because they're going to hit them left and right, they're

21:42

gonna they're they're not gonna be too far off

21:44

there there. That part is kind of mechanical.

21:47

But but to hit it to the link you want

21:49

to hit it, you know, as as as Johnny

21:51

Miller used to say, you know, in my prime, I could

21:53

distinguish from one seventy six and one seventy

21:56

seven. Uh, well, that's gonna leave

21:58

you with a make up a put. So

22:00

that that was the first thing I saw at

22:03

that Honda tournament, aside from some other

22:05

cultural things that were extremely interesting. But

22:07

just to pass forward there per minute, so all

22:09

the you know, you know whatever

22:12

two roughly eighty shots that he played

22:14

are fewer than that. Uh. At Augusta last

22:16

year. One of the ones that stands up most of

22:18

my mind is the second shot

22:21

five iron on Sunday from

22:23

the right side of the Ferrway on fifteen two

22:26

hundred forty yards raw

22:29

shot piercing. You know when

22:31

I say draw show, I mean like three yards of draw

22:33

sat of the green is gonna take that slope and

22:35

go down there. And the absolute

22:38

worst score this guy is gonna make is

22:40

four. Well, four

22:42

is huge. Four is way

22:44

better than seven. You know,

22:46

four windsy the tournament. So you know how Tiger

22:48

talks about the the t shot and seventeen blah

22:51

blah blah. But I mean the purity

22:53

of that's now, that's that's a bread and butter shot

22:55

form. It's not really even a hard shot form. But

22:57

there aren't that many people play. And then another quick one that comes

22:59

to and I'm just blanking here, but this was the first

23:02

or second round. I think it was the well,

23:04

I just can't remember right now, but the first or second round he drove

23:06

it in the green side excuse me, the fairway

23:08

bunker on the left side of eighteen. And

23:11

you know there's a lip there, it's nasty,

23:13

it's straight up a hill and he's in there, I think

23:15

with the seven iron, and and

23:18

there are so few I mean you're a really good golfer and you're

23:21

a really foot person, and

23:23

you know, I don't know your your game, won't have to know, but

23:25

but the number of people who could actually

23:28

advance a golf ball from

23:30

that trap to the back right of the green from

23:32

where you could to put it's a very short

23:35

list. So the skill set of hitting

23:37

an iron lush, the

23:39

distance you want to hit it and need to hit it um

23:42

is off the charts. Yeah, you know that story

23:45

brings up to your point of

23:47

again, you said it to start, it was like

23:50

he was playing chess on Sunday against

23:52

everybody else, and maybe he's been playing chess

23:54

against everybody his entire life, and we're

23:56

just starting to realize how good he is a chess.

23:58

But I think it was Hogan.

24:01

It's a story of Hogan playing fifteen

24:03

at Augusta with an amateur and

24:05

he laid up. He was a whole bunch under par

24:08

He laid up and he knocked on the green and made birdie

24:10

and the amateur asked him why didn't go for it?

24:12

And I think Hogan stone faced of course as

24:14

he was said I didn't need eagle, you

24:17

know, And I just felt like that's the same point

24:19

here. Tiger would have loved to make three

24:21

there, but he didn't need three. You know,

24:23

he's I, I just want to make four. I'm

24:25

gonna hit the exact shot I need to hit. And

24:28

the distance control thing with him

24:30

his entire career. You know how people say

24:33

it's your it's your favorite pros favorite

24:35

pro. I feel like Tiger's iron

24:37

game as everybody's favorite pros favorite

24:40

aspect of any golfer in the history of the game

24:42

was his Tiger's continued ability

24:45

to be able to hit iron shots

24:47

exactly where he wants them.

24:50

Well, that's well said. I totally agree with that.

24:52

And now, Butch, where he on the phone, I think would

24:54

would would add this to the conversation. In

24:58

at twenty one, in his first

25:00

major as a professional, he

25:03

wins the Masters by twelve shots. Now,

25:05

any normal person of

25:08

thousands going to say, Okay, I've got this.

25:10

All I have to do is hold on

25:13

to what I have and I'm gonna win for a long

25:15

time to come. And what Butch Harmon said,

25:17

and with Tiger acknowledged to be true or I'm not

25:19

sure what the orders might have been the other way around, was

25:21

that I am really good at golf. But

25:24

I've got a distance control problem with you

25:26

know, I think it was I think it was really the wedge.

25:28

But let's say eight nine wedge sandwich

25:31

possibly, And uh, and I've

25:33

got if I'm going to dominate for a long

25:35

time, I've got to get better at that. And

25:38

so who would think that you would want to do make

25:40

any changes to the swing that just allowed

25:43

you to win a Master's by twelve shots? Who

25:45

would make And it just gets the thing that we're

25:47

talking about. It was distance control with

25:49

the shortest clubs. Uh, that

25:53

was really what he worked on. And

25:55

then we know what happened in two thousands. Yeah,

25:57

I loved the part in the book you and this is

26:00

just the golf dork in me. You love you dove

26:02

into the Champions dinners at August Over

26:04

the years, was that information

26:06

always made public? Was that something that in

26:08

the nineties and in the late eighties,

26:10

was that information that they would

26:12

tell the media and the public because

26:15

now you know you you see the pictures

26:17

posted on social media and they obviously aren't

26:19

scared to reveal that information. But if

26:22

it wasn't public, how much digging do you

26:24

have to do to find out what meals were served.

26:27

You know, I'm not sure, Shane,

26:29

I think that menu has always been released.

26:32

Uh, But I don't want this to

26:34

come up off by being I

26:37

hope this one sounded modest, but I would say the

26:39

mechanics of how the dinner works, I

26:41

don't think. I don't think I've read

26:43

that anywhere before, you

26:45

know, typing it up for for for this book.

26:48

And I'm just you know, as as I'm sure

26:50

the same is true for you. I'm fortunate to have relations,

26:54

you know, trusting relationships with a lot of people who

26:56

have who have won that, uh won

26:58

that tournament and are at that dinner. So

27:00

I was able to get a good sense of what that dinner

27:03

is like. Yeah, it seemed like and

27:05

I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna lean on you

27:07

here. It seems like Vj's

27:10

dinner is kind of the consensus

27:12

goat of the champions inners. There that fair.

27:15

I think it's only for the foodies, uh

27:17

okay, And I don't think and I don't think there were

27:19

that many foodies among I don't think Jack Nicholas

27:22

is a foodie. I don't think Gary players. I think they're

27:24

like, give me a piece of Gary players like bring

27:26

me the cod no sauce, and Jack's

27:28

like, you know, bring me the prime wrist with

27:31

the burnets. Uh. But you

27:33

do have you do have some I think, uh

27:35

you know very much uh a loft the

27:37

ball and seven before he died, of

27:39

course uh uh

27:41

faio uh are are

27:45

very much um

27:48

foodies and they appreciated

27:50

DJ's effort. I didn't know that J was,

27:52

but it evidently evidently is.

27:54

But yes, I do, Yes, people

27:57

do talk about that VJ dinner and the tie

28:00

after he brought in from Atlanta.

28:02

So as a writer somebody

28:04

that's laying out a book like this, I know you're

28:07

doing hours and hours and hours of interviews.

28:09

But something that I feel like, specifically

28:12

to you, I love I talked about a couple of things. This

28:14

is the other thing is how you'll sprinkle

28:17

in quotes from something

28:19

completely non golf related throughout

28:22

the story to help hammer home your point. Let

28:24

me give an example, because this is one of my favorites. You

28:26

were you were talking about winning

28:28

and the Masters, and and you're

28:31

talking about prep and how it's not the sexiest

28:33

thing in the world, and you gave a war in

28:35

Buffett quote about how he invested

28:38

in brick and other durables. And you said, quote,

28:40

try to contain your excitement, and

28:42

it was just such a perfect quote for the

28:44

moment. How are you grabbing

28:47

these quotes? How many quotes do you have in your

28:49

brain? Mr? Bamburger? Well they

28:51

float around, But let's let's

28:53

make a nod to uh

28:56

by acquaintance slash friend and

28:59

I think maybe you're buss uh.

29:01

Mark Loomis here. Mark

29:03

Loomis is the producer of you help me if

29:06

I don't have the title correct. Mark Lomis is

29:08

the producer of golf for

29:10

for the Fox broadcast, so he handles all the U.

29:12

S J events that you see on Fox, and

29:15

Shane works with him very closely. If I may speak

29:17

to your Shane and uh, and I've had the

29:19

pleasure work machine with well Will

29:21

Shane as well. But what I meant to say is Mark. Mark's

29:24

mother is a legend now

29:27

in in early nineties,

29:29

her name is Carol Loomis. Now

29:32

many would not know, but many would know that Carol

29:34

Loomis, among many other things, is Warren

29:36

Buffett's ghostwriter. So

29:39

when you see some and was was a

29:41

longtime writer for different Time inc.

29:43

Magazines, Most most notably uh Fortune

29:45

Business, you know the time magazine of

29:48

the business world, Fortune and anyway.

29:50

Uh So some of these legendary lines like,

29:53

uh, you know this year we invested in cement,

29:55

try to continue your excitement. I don't know specifically

29:57

about that line, but Mark's

30:00

mother, Carol Loomis fingerprints

30:02

are all over some of these, uh some

30:04

of these Buffet ones. So uh

30:07

so that's where that one comes from. And uh

30:09

yeah, they do. They float around in my head. They're not written

30:11

down anywhere. But I go to a

30:13

lot of movies, I read a lot of books, and and

30:15

uh I do retain things that

30:18

that amused me or you know, one of one. Another

30:20

one of Buffetts things is if you know,

30:22

this is something only a really rich person can say.

30:25

If you see an investment you like, don't

30:28

take a child's portion. Well

30:30

that's great. If you've got a few billion dollars

30:32

to in, that's right. You

30:35

can dive into a little easier. Yeah, that's

30:37

right. When when you don't worry about what your debit

30:40

card amount is, he probably hasn't checked his debit

30:42

card statement too much over the years. Yeah,

30:45

exactly. I was very impressed at one point when

30:47

I learned the Warren Buffett. Warren Buffett's

30:49

housekeeper came by monthly twice

30:51

a month, and you know, well

30:54

ours came once a week. So I said to my Christine,

30:56

you know, isn't it funny Warren Buffett's I'm

31:00

glad our house comes once week

31:02

because it makes everything nicer than

31:04

anyway. We digress. We're gonna take a quick break

31:06

and be right back. I

31:16

want to get to Tiger and something

31:18

you pointed out that I never knew and

31:20

I had no idea about, and now

31:22

it makes total sense. We

31:24

knew that Tiger in Majors, when

31:26

he had one hand around the trophy

31:29

going into the weekend, he basically won. I

31:31

never knew how solidly he played

31:34

on Saturday, specifically

31:36

against whomever he was paired

31:38

with. You framed it as

31:40

moving day Saturday. It was almost

31:43

like a match played day for Tiger, and

31:45

his record nearly flawless

31:48

against the person next to him that

31:50

day. He will kill

31:52

the versit he's playing with on Saturday. Well, look

31:54

if if Tiger, if Tiger

31:56

is contending, that

31:59

means the guy that he's playing with on Saturdays contending

32:01

as well. Tiger doesn't wanna have to worry

32:03

about that guy comes Sunday, so he

32:05

will bury that guy. Now, I've asked

32:07

Tiger about this and he and he denies it.

32:10

But you know, Tiger keeps his

32:12

methods very close to the best, and I

32:14

don't blame him at all all

32:16

for that. Uh.

32:19

I don't know if this is an inside or not, but one

32:21

of the things that I picked up about Tiger

32:23

really only in the writing of this book was that Tiger

32:26

mastered match play. He

32:28

won three straight U S Juniors, as you know, and that

32:30

followed by three straight U S m

32:33

s. It's completely a heard of that you could

32:35

do that for six straight years. So

32:37

he came onto the PGA Tour having figured

32:39

out match play golfle match play golf is

32:42

boxing, knock the guy out that

32:44

you're playing, and and tournament

32:46

golf of course is very different. But

32:48

what I think Tiger was able to do, I

32:50

mean, they're almost different games. Uh. I

32:52

think what Tiger was able to do is hold on to that

32:55

match play mentality, I'm going to bury

32:57

this guy on Saturday, so I don't have to worry about

32:59

him on Sunda day, and

33:01

played the chess required of tournament golfer.

33:03

You're playing the course and you're playing the whole field

33:06

at the same time. So yes, it was very

33:08

useful for him to be those

33:10

guys on Saturday. And yes, the I

33:13

mean and it's not just you know, sometimes

33:15

absolutely destroyed the guy.

33:18

And by the way, if you can do it, you

33:20

know, one time, and you know, if you do it at the two thousand

33:23

and six p J Championship

33:25

wherever it was, and then you're gonna face that guy

33:27

six years later on on a Sunday,

33:30

Well, he's got him in the back of the mind. Or like

33:32

this guy has no fun to play with when all the

33:35

lights are on you. Yeah, Tony Fenow you

33:37

you said you talked to Tony Fine a few months after

33:39

the Masters, and he said he was on the range

33:42

and he couldn't get out of his head

33:44

that Tiger Woods was a couple of spots,

33:46

you know, and he was gonna play with him in the final round of the Masters.

33:48

This is the thing that he'd always wanted to do. And

33:51

again, as as you said, Earl would always

33:53

tell Tiger, let the legend grow. The

33:55

legends just sitting there warming up and

33:58

you're thinking about him, He's not thinking about you,

34:01

right, And uh and and I

34:03

think it's great that we're at a place right now where you have

34:05

people like Tony Finow, uh

34:07

justin Thomas Rory McRoy, Jordan's

34:09

Speef h Francesco Mulinary

34:12

who are actually willing to tell you a little bit

34:14

about their internal lives because

34:17

it makes the game more interesting for us. Of course,

34:19

Tiger famously was not

34:21

really willing to do that. And that's okay, you know,

34:23

it's his his business and his approach, and

34:25

uh, that's up to him.

34:27

But but but but what what a truthful

34:30

thing for Finelle to h to acknowledge and

34:32

along the same lines and uh and and

34:34

this is in the book, uh, which

34:36

reminds me of quick secutly, my my friend Gary Nansickle

34:39

form former colleague Sports Illustrated will

34:41

always say, you want to win a writer store and promoter

34:43

his book will say, well, as I say in pause

34:47

the book, you know it's apology.

34:49

But anyway, but I do say this in the book

34:51

the book, Uh, that that wakes

34:54

up on Sunday morning and he's getting dressed

34:56

and he knows what he's gonna wear, and it's

34:58

like you can't put on its. You know, it's

35:00

probably dark, it's probably pre dawn because

35:03

they're going off on Sunday morning, and

35:05

you can't not think about

35:07

how is this going to look with a green code on? You

35:10

don't want to be thinking it, but you're a human being.

35:12

Of course, Tiger Woods, he's got

35:15

four coats. What's got one coat? But he's got

35:17

four winds. He knows what that

35:19

whole deal is like plus black and red and

35:21

green. He knows that that whole thing that's right. He's

35:23

not worried about a clash, he's

35:25

not worried about Gosh's he's so, he's

35:28

so, he's in the club forever. Mulinari

35:31

has got the passing thought. And

35:33

thank you, Francesco molinary On behalf

35:35

of this writer for sharing with me so I could use

35:37

it so um, but

35:40

what an insight for what it's like to

35:43

be in that moment on Sunday morning trying to do

35:45

some by the way, and this is the guy won the Bridge showpen a few months

35:47

earlier or a half year earlier. Was

35:49

it Wise Cough or was it Miller who

35:52

apparently had that thought crossed their mind

35:54

on fifteen on Sunday before they hit in the water

35:56

and they said it man green Jacket's gonna look good

35:58

on me. I don't know that

36:00

one. It could be either, but I know, I know wives

36:02

Scott said on twelve, when you stood on twelve and those fans

36:04

are close to when you're on the part three twelve, he's

36:07

like, I felt, I felt

36:09

naked of fryeball, you know, and you

36:11

know, and here's the best dress guy on tour with you

36:13

know, the perfect posture and the perfect

36:16

sweater and the Kashmir this, and you

36:18

know, just the beautiful dresser and I felt naked.

36:20

So yeah, they it's

36:23

great that they're willing to admit their frailties.

36:25

I think one of the things that draws us all to the game,

36:27

no matter what level which we play, is

36:30

those frailties are basically

36:33

the same for all of us. And I think that's why,

36:35

you know, so many of the golf writers play as well,

36:38

and the broadcasters as well, and to

36:41

some degree, even though the stakes

36:43

of course are way way different. But but

36:45

what we do when they do are there are a lot of

36:47

similarities, a lot of differences, but a lot of similarities

36:49

as well. Yeah, speak of similarities. One of the

36:52

best debates in all of sports, I

36:54

think, and of course the best

36:56

debate in golf is Jack versus Tiger.

36:59

You said this early

37:01

in the book, and I guess I've never really

37:03

thought about it. You were talking about their accomplishments

37:06

in the major championships. You said, two

37:08

men with three career Grand Slam So

37:10

Tiger and Jack have won the Grand Slam three

37:12

times over. Nobody else has won it twice

37:15

over. So that's a good example of how

37:17

much different they are. And then late

37:19

in the book, one of the last things you talked

37:21

about were these two. You

37:23

said, Tiger Woods is the best player in history,

37:26

you said, and I believe Jack

37:29

is the greatest of all time.

37:32

So you're You're kind of on both camps there,

37:34

and I feel like I'm in the same camp as you

37:37

dominance his ability to win.

37:39

I feel like Tiger eclipse Jack, while

37:42

Jack obviously has what Tiger cannot

37:44

reach yet. Right,

37:46

Shane, you we're looking at this

37:48

the same way. Uh,

37:52

to me, Jack, you know to be the greatest.

37:54

You know, I'll leave used to say, you know,

37:56

I'm the greatest of all time. Well, who

37:58

really knows what that means, especially in boxing,

38:01

because you've just got the one guy that you've got to beat,

38:03

and you know, Uh, it's

38:05

hard to compare the generations. But

38:07

what does it mean to be the greatest of all time? What's I

38:10

would say, it's the stamp you leave,

38:12

you know, on your sport. If we're gonna you

38:15

know, definancial athletes in this conversation,

38:17

And I think Jack's stamp on golf

38:20

is unmatched. I think Tiger's

38:23

record is unmatched in part because

38:25

and I know a lot of people disagree with this. Jack

38:28

be a tremendous group of

38:31

crusty tough men, you know,

38:33

from Hubert Green and John Maffey, you

38:35

know who aren't often part of the conversation. Of course,

38:38

you know, Billy Casper and Arnold and Johnny

38:40

Miller and other true legends

38:43

of the game. Uh, Tiger

38:46

be fewer of those

38:49

kinds of personalities. But the

38:51

population, the world population

38:53

of super league golfers that Tiger

38:56

had to be is vastly bigger. If

38:59

you look at now, what is Jack

39:01

Happy's got five p g

39:03

A So when he won those pgs,

39:05

well, he's beating a bunch of American golfers

39:08

and a bunch of club pros. A bunch of

39:10

club pros who could, on their best

39:13

four days together, could

39:15

never come within five or six or ten

39:17

shots of Jack Nicholas on his for

39:20

best days or even it's four average days.

39:22

In other words, he's got so much of that field beat

39:24

before you know the first shot is played

39:26

Thursday morning, So Tigers beating

39:29

a much deeper, deeper pool.

39:32

But for overall impact

39:35

on the game, I

39:38

don't know how anyone can top Jack Nicholas because

39:40

he, to me is the true

39:42

heir of Jones in

39:45

terms of the values of the

39:47

game that transcend the

39:49

actual planning of the game. And just

39:52

to finish up this one thought, Arnold's

39:54

career, it's overstated

39:56

in terms of what he did. It was a tremendous,

39:59

tremendous career. But we didn't win the career Grand

40:01

Slam. Um uh.

40:03

He didn't win all over the world like

40:06

like Gary, like Garrett Player has done. But

40:08

Arnold's overall stamp on the game

40:11

is immeasurable because he lifted

40:13

the game, and he lifted people. Uh

40:17

uh. He made the game better. And

40:19

that I know. None of this is

40:21

definable, but

40:23

it's deep in me my belief of

40:25

what constitutes greatness, and that's why,

40:28

among many other things that I could add to that, but

40:30

that's why Jack is number one in r was

40:32

way up there for me as well. A wild

40:34

nugget in the book I found out about you nine

40:37

rounds of golf with Trump?

40:39

Who would have I ever thought of You're almost a double

40:42

digits. Well, I've

40:44

got. I meant nine and a half.

40:47

I don't know what

40:50

went one day we played eighteen, and

40:52

then he went out for an emergency nine. That the West

40:54

Bond Beach course where he's got twenty seven holes,

40:57

which abuts the prison

41:00

where Tiger actually was detained for a while.

41:02

After that that horrible night, Well what happened

41:04

there? Shame. The only reason that Trump

41:06

want to play golf with me was that I

41:08

was writing up his golf courses

41:11

for Sports Illustrated. In other words, I had

41:13

something he wanted, which was a good write up for about

41:16

the courses in its owner for Sports

41:18

Illustrated. So he wasn't gonna let

41:20

me far out of my sight. And then he you know, he's

41:22

a very he's a very congenial golf partner.

41:24

We're not gonna do a whole political thing here, but just a limited

41:26

to what it's like to play golf with Donald Trump.

41:29

He's a lot of fun. To play with. It's

41:31

not golf, as you and I know, and

41:33

I'm a ninety shooter, but you know, if I tell

41:35

you shoeed ninety three, I probably shot pretty close to ninety

41:37

one. That's not the case with Trump,

41:40

you know, because Trump plays like millions

41:43

do, just a very sort of casual

41:45

golf. Only problem is he said by bluest

41:47

six to Bill, you should put in your story.

41:50

But he's a capable golfer and he's

41:53

fun to play with. That anyway, That's how I played nine half rounds

41:55

of golf with Donald Trump was because because I had

41:57

something you wanted. Yeah. I had Rick Riley

41:59

on last year about his book. If you want

42:01

to deep dive into the into the Trump golf

42:03

world, you can listen to that podcast. I just

42:05

I was. I was shocked and surprised.

42:08

I mean, I know, he obviously has

42:10

his life has has been in and out of golf

42:12

for years and years and years. But I was like, man,

42:15

that's that's a lot of rounds. Of course, most

42:17

of them, if not all of them, assuming happened

42:19

before he was president. You

42:22

you wrote a piece, and the last thing I wanna talk about

42:24

is I love this piece. It was after

42:26

of course the passing of Kobe Bryant.

42:28

You wrote a piece and it compared

42:31

Kobe and Tiger in their careers.

42:33

Can you just expand on their similarities,

42:37

you know, kind of like hat tipping back

42:39

to the points you were making in that piece, right,

42:42

Well, you know, they're they're they're similar in age,

42:45

They're they're transformational because

42:48

uh, they Kobe

42:50

had appeal way beyond there were basket

42:53

There were people who have the most casual interest

42:55

or no interest in NBA basketball who

42:57

were drawn to Kobe. To Kobe

43:00

style, to Kobe's sophistication

43:03

with language, uh uh,

43:05

to Kobe's openness. Tigers

43:08

different personality type from Kobe.

43:10

Uh, but Tiger also was played

43:13

a very uh similar role. He

43:16

he had tremendous appeal for the way he

43:18

carried himself and when he played the game, uh

43:20

to people who really had passing

43:23

interests or even no interest in golf.

43:26

Uh and uh and they

43:28

dominated their games. Uh, they played

43:30

through injuries and they also you

43:32

know, if you have a six year

43:35

run in golf, it's tremendous,

43:37

and Tigers has been twenties. Uh,

43:40

Kobe the same. I mean, if you have a six year NBA

43:43

NBA cruise tremendous. What did Kobe have close

43:45

to twenty So the longevity

43:48

is astounding. Uh,

43:50

some of the off court and off course problems

43:52

are are are broadly similar. The

43:55

commitment to education, the commitment

43:57

to their to their own children in the face

44:00

the pressures of being a public

44:02

person and having the steps as we all do

44:04

in life. Uh, there was just a lot of

44:06

similarities there. And I had the feeling and I don't

44:08

know this, but just listening to the little that I've

44:10

heard Tiger talk about Kobe, I don't think

44:12

there was an everyday closeness at all between

44:15

the two. Of course, Tiger worships, the worship

44:17

the Lakers are growing up, but

44:20

I think they probably didn't really need to be,

44:22

because, uh, their

44:24

understanding of each other's life was

44:26

on on such a deep level and such as

44:29

really a pround level. All right, last

44:31

thing, Michael, I'm gonna ask you, if you retired

44:33

tomorrow, what three

44:35

majors? And I know this is putting you on the spot,

44:37

but what three major championships?

44:40

On Sunday, as you're sitting in front of your computer

44:43

preparing to write, were you most

44:45

excited about writing the story?

44:48

Which three events, and I'm assuming

44:50

twenty nineteens probably gonna

44:52

kind of land in one of the three spots. The

44:55

weird thing about nine and

44:57

because you know much and no you'll believe me,

44:59

but most people won't. But that's okay.

45:02

I was rooting like crazy for Frantriscal Millinary

45:04

to win that tournament, and people would say that's

45:07

crazy because if he, if Tiger

45:09

wins, that's great for your book. Yes, it was

45:11

good for the book The Tiger One, no question about that.

45:13

But Millinary is my favorite

45:15

player in the game right now. I love the way he goes

45:17

about his business, and also I'm

45:20

looking for moments for character reveals

45:22

itself. I've said this before, so I hope it doesn't sound

45:24

to reverse, but I deeply believe

45:26

it. And had Tiger made a double

45:28

on eighteen and lost in a playoff, we

45:30

would have learned a lot more about Tiger's

45:33

character then then through winning, and

45:35

uh so that would have been I would have been very drawn

45:38

to that. Having said that, definitely,

45:40

I put I put the nineteen the

45:43

two thousand nineteen Masters. I put the ninety seven

45:45

Masters on there

45:47

for lots of different reasons, one of which was just

45:50

a house full of s I writers,

45:53

all with different assignments, writing

45:55

it up on deadline, pulling all nighters and trying

45:57

to capture something original

46:00

about about an event

46:02

that had legs that went and

46:04

reached, that went way way beyond golf,

46:07

that was very meaningful. And then because

46:10

I really grew up on him, uh

46:12

Watson had Turnberry. Uh

46:15

Uh that really springs to mind because

46:18

Watson handled the defeat of that playoff

46:20

just Stewart sinking the two thousand nine Open

46:22

Championship. Um,

46:25

he handled it with more grace than than an I did.

46:27

Trying to write it up, and

46:30

I remember leaving the town. I

46:32

remember leaving the President Turnbury

46:34

and it was pitch black. I mean it was

46:36

nearly it was nearly actually was not

46:39

pitch blacks what I'm saying it because it was it was

46:41

nearly dawn, which comes very early in

46:43

Scotland in summer, you know, probably about what

46:46

four third or five in the more, And trying

46:48

to just trying to get that. Were

46:50

you at that event, Chane, No, but I

46:52

lived over there for summer and I remember

46:55

that. I always said it never got dark.

46:57

It always got midnight blue, but

47:00

it never got actually dark. You know, you

47:02

never felt like the sky was black. Yeah,

47:05

that's true. So those those

47:07

three spring to mind very quickly. But

47:10

you know, the matriction runs

47:12

wild on these questions because you know, if

47:14

you read about the game, as I know you do and I do,

47:16

you know what about sars and making that

47:18

two and thirty five? You know what

47:20

about Arnold and fifty eight lay, don't you?

47:23

You know? So there's things that exist only on YouTube.

47:25

Erland highlight reels are only in our imagination

47:27

from reading that you know are part of uh,

47:30

you know, there's they're scrolling around in my

47:32

mind too. But for events where I was actually there,

47:35

those three, those three would be probably the first thing

47:37

that's room to mind. Yeah, you know, I I've been

47:39

to your point about some of the majors we

47:41

maybe forget about sometimes when we talk about the

47:44

greatest ones. I've been during all of

47:46

this, where there's no sports and nothing on TV. I've

47:48

been diving into old final rounds

47:50

of Masters. All those masters are on YouTube. I've

47:53

been trying to watch the ones that maybe we don't

47:56

consider greatest masters ever. I

47:58

watched the Kenny Perry one a couple

48:00

of weeks ago. I want to get into the Zack Johnson

48:02

Masters, because you know, Tiger had a chance to win

48:04

that one as well, and that was one of the tougher

48:07

modern day masters we've ever had. And

48:09

as you watch these ones, that again, the

48:12

nineties seven Masters might have seven million

48:14

views on YouTube, and you look at some of

48:16

the other ones and they have a hundred thousand views

48:18

on there. But they're great in their own regards,

48:21

and they're fun to roll through. They're fun to see

48:23

which moment changed, what was

48:25

the you know, two thousand, nineteen

48:27

twelve hole of the O nine Masters.

48:30

And I've I found them really revealing

48:32

because it's easy to forget about

48:34

the great moments there. My last, my

48:37

last thing I want to ask you again putting you on the

48:39

spot, but we have free time right now.

48:41

Any other golf books beside yours

48:44

and the ones you've penned over the years,

48:46

any golf books that you would push people towards,

48:48

of course, after they read the Second

48:50

Life of Tiger Woods? Well really

48:53

really, if if you've never read a book on Tiger

48:56

Woods, I would I would probably

48:58

start with the Contain Bennett book, uh,

49:01

because still give you a scope of his life. I

49:03

find the book semi depressing, Uh,

49:06

Shane, what was your experience a

49:08

little bit? It was it just it just bummed

49:10

you out because it was it was so much

49:13

about again that the person that is

49:15

Tiger and the demons that exists and

49:18

and and this bubble my

49:20

life is so I can't relate to

49:23

it really because it's

49:25

such a self absorbed life

49:27

of just golf and me, me,

49:29

me, And I think what's interesting

49:31

what's happened since then is he's he's

49:33

I think, broken out of that too to a great degree.

49:36

And how he actually did that will

49:38

lead to the third book that I would put ahead of my book

49:40

excep if it's not written yet, which would be if Tiger ever writes

49:42

his own book, which you know he says it's going to do, and I hope

49:44

he does do it because I think it'll be a I think it'll

49:46

be a great exercise for him. Uh.

49:49

But you know, if someone is new to reading

49:51

books about golf and they loved golf,

49:54

they're welcome to write to me, and I'd be I'd be

49:56

happy to to give a listen and be

49:59

a little easier to do if I woul at home begin my bookshelf

50:01

right now. But uh, you know,

50:03

any of the Jenkins books. George

50:05

Plimpton's The boguey Man is one of my favorite

50:08

books of all time. Golf in the Kingdom

50:10

was a huge hit for

50:13

me, and it's a shame did you have did you

50:15

read it to do it or not? Like, yeah, you touched

50:17

on it late late in second life

50:19

and and I love that you kept bringing that up. Yeah,

50:21

it's a monumental book to me. It doesn't you know a lot of

50:23

people don't register and that's you know that that's

50:25

the reading experience. There are people who will, you know, take

50:28

a book at this book. You know that I just just

50:30

say, I feel like I know this already, and those

50:32

oh this is opening. So you know, the reading experience

50:35

is so individual and people bring their life experience

50:37

to It's very hard to say, but you

50:40

know, to go back to the thing that you first said.

50:42

And I know the quote from George Plimpton, but you said

50:44

it right from the start. And I'm not sure who really is responsible

50:46

for the smaller the ball,

50:48

the better writing will Golf has such a rich

50:50

literature. Um, some of your

50:52

listeners will know, but but some wanted

50:55

the names Herbert Warren Wind and Bernard Darwin,

50:57

who has Charles Darwin's I think I think

50:59

nephew maybe grinstematic nephew.

51:02

Uh, you know, long well long before

51:04

your time, Chaine, a little bit before my time. And

51:06

uh so you can have

51:08

a lot of fun in this period

51:11

getting lost in golf books in Chaine. I really

51:14

this whole time that we've been talking, so you know, the

51:17

occasional lapse, this has been a pleasure.

51:19

We've been on the phone now for getting close to an hour and

51:21

just to get sort of lost in golf

51:24

and not thinking about C D D or

51:26

any you know, we'll talk about nineteen right

51:28

now. It's not it's not two numbers

51:31

at the end of the virus. You know, it's the whole

51:33

where Arnold would you know, uh

51:35

down a couple of uh with his buddies

51:37

out fins for all that. Anyway, it's

51:40

nice to have this break, and

51:42

I'm not apologizing at all. And

51:45

you know, in this interview or any other time I

51:47

talked about the book because we

51:49

need and we deserve a break from

51:52

the surreal lentless news. And you

51:54

know, my own take on is that we're getting

51:56

closer to good news every single day.

51:59

Uh, but of course

52:01

we are, and and that

52:03

golf gives us we who

52:05

are serious golfers. I've written this, but uh

52:08

so I don't want to go go with this. Guy just came up with this is pretty

52:10

good, but uh, I think we are Golf

52:13

requires tremendous reservoirs

52:16

of patients and planning and

52:19

actually teamwork to get through something.

52:21

You know, if you and I go around for around

52:24

to golf and so we're playing, you know, in a match

52:26

at our do you play Whisper Chain or where

52:28

do you play? Play a Phoenix country club? Oh

52:31

wow? Uh, it's Jessica Marksberry's

52:33

husband. Is he still he's

52:36

there? Yeah? Great, unbelievable guy,

52:38

Paul. He uh, he's he's

52:40

got the accident. They just had a second they just had a

52:42

second child, and he's still out there. He's

52:44

still out there making sure everything's running. You know. I mean,

52:46

there's still golf to be played in this state,

52:49

at least for the time am

52:52

on Tuesday. I know everything's

52:54

changing minutes a minute, but as of right now,

52:56

there's a there's golf to be played. But yeah, it's

52:58

it's it's a fabulous fan thest Golf Course. Uh

53:02

yeah, well so so Paul's wife

53:05

is my colleague Jessica Marksbury one

53:07

of the great people on this world. But

53:09

anyway, the point being is that the very things

53:11

that draw us to golf, um

53:13

and part of it is playing by the rules and doing

53:15

our part, you know, leaving that bunker in better shape

53:17

than when you walked into it, are the very things

53:20

that I'll get it through this, uh,

53:22

you know, through this unfortunate episode

53:24

that we're in. But we but we will get through it, and we'll

53:27

have golf before too long. Here, as

53:29

I let you go, we have nothing

53:32

going on in terms of sports. As you said,

53:34

we're sitting around just passing

53:37

the time with whatever we do to pass the time. If

53:39

it's a puzzle, if you're playing chess, if you're starting a

53:41

new hobby or a new book. You're

53:44

a man that is not ventured

53:46

into the social media world. Are

53:48

we getting closer to social media

53:51

for for for this reporter, No, not

53:53

at all. I thought maybe

53:56

Simon and Schuster would push it towards it with

53:58

the book coming out, But you've always

54:00

avoided Twitter. I'm impressed. I

54:03

did say, yeah, I have no interest. I did say that one of

54:05

my bosses at Sports Illustrator before I left Sports

54:07

Sollstor went to Golf magazine and golf

54:09

dot com with my friend and Colin Alan

54:11

Ship Knuk and and others. Uh uh

54:15

and that was a lifeline given where sports solsittors

54:17

right now. And uh, I want to thank

54:19

Howard missing every opportunity to get Jack Cooks

54:21

is business part of the bought Golf magazine golf dot

54:23

Com from sports solicitor. But anyway, one

54:25

of my former bosses said he had me on the phone

54:28

for something. I said, so, look, if you're thinking about

54:30

firing me, because you know I'm not doing any

54:32

social media, could you let me know ahead

54:34

of time because I will start if that's

54:36

what I need to do to keep my job. I

54:38

don't really want to. And the guy's

54:40

like, no, I understand you're not on it at all. And

54:42

Ship knucks on it too much. It's a perfect

54:44

balance. Yeah. Well, he says he's

54:46

taking a page from from him ideas and me of

54:49

you know, wanting to do us of it. Uh,

54:52

but I do. I just like to

54:54

express myself in other ways. I guess it's

54:57

got the point. But I'm I'm I'm glad for people

54:59

who do get something out of it. And I think any way that

55:01

people. I'm not negative and I

55:03

think I know, I think people need to communicate

55:06

with one another, and I think that changes over time. And

55:08

I'm a big user of email and people are you

55:10

know my emails writ in the book or you know it's

55:12

very available online as well, and anybody

55:14

who writes to me, I pretty much right back to everybody

55:17

writes to me, because I love

55:19

connecting with people who connect to the written

55:21

work. Your email address is literally

55:23

in the back of the book. You can check it out. The

55:25

Second Life a Tiger was Michael Bamberger. I

55:27

appreciate it. Read the book, you'll love it.

55:29

It'll bring you back to a happier time in our lives

55:32

when the Masters was on and Tiger

55:34

was battling it out with some other superstars,

55:37

and you weave through his life and it

55:39

is a crazy, crazy what life at forty

55:41

four and we can only hope to see more and more

55:43

of it. I appreciate the time, my friend, and we'll

55:45

catch up soon down the road. Jane, I appreciate

55:48

the time. I mean, you've done me a great favor

55:50

here, give me a little break and uh and

55:52

letting me talk about the book. So I appreciate

55:55

it, so, thank you very much. We're gonna take a

55:57

quick break and be right back. A

56:04

big thanks to Michael Bamberger for his time.

56:06

As I mentioned to start, please, if

56:08

you're a reader, if you're someone that

56:11

likes golf and likes golf books, check

56:13

out The Second Life of Tiger Woods. I promise you

56:15

you'll enjoy it. Thank you all for

56:17

listening. I appreciate that as well. Send

56:20

me a note on Instagram

56:22

at the Clubhouse Pod. If you're

56:24

at home and you'd like a Clubhouse

56:27

Pod sticker. If you want one of those,

56:29

go on Instagram at the Clubhouse Pod. Send

56:31

the note. I'll send one. It's the least

56:34

I can do for spending an hour with

56:36

me every couple of weeks or so. I hope you

56:38

guys have a safe and healthy and smart

56:40

rest of your week, and we'll be back next

56:42

week. I've got a few of these in

56:44

the can already, so hopefully

56:46

there will be more consistent clubhouses as we

56:48

go on. That's my hope. Nothing

56:51

else to do. My studio here is at

56:53

my house. That's where I record. Let's

56:55

keep them going. Have a great week. The

57:04

Clubhouse was Shane Bacon as a production of I

57:06

heart Radio. For more podcasts from

57:08

My heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,

57:10

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57:13

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