0:12

Welcome to the Cohort SysSys Podcast

0:14

, where we give life to the stories

0:16

, struggles and successes of Black

0:18

women and non-binary folks with doctoral

0:20

degrees . I'm your host , dr Jama

0:22

Cola , and today I'm really

0:24

honored to introduce Dr Brenda Dogway

0:27

to you . She's been a terrible

0:29

part of the Cohort SysSys community . She's

0:32

led panels and discussions for our members , and

0:34

so I'm really happy to have her with us today

0:36

on the podcast . So , with a

0:38

PhD in Population Health from the

0:40

University of Ottawa and a Master's

0:42

of Public Health , dr Dogway is a force

0:45

of excellence Founder

0:47

of Career Slay Mama , creator

0:49

of a Complify Incorporated and host

0:51

of the Career Slay Talks podcast

0:53

. She not only shines as an executive

0:55

within the Canadian government , but also

0:58

shares her expertise via coaching

1:00

and workshops through her companies , while

1:02

her podcast also provides invaluable

1:04

career insights , focusing on advancing

1:06

Black professionals into leadership . She's

1:09

also a loving wife and a mother of three

1:11

wonderful children , and I'm excited to dig into

1:13

this combo . So welcome to the podcast

1:15

, dr Dogway .

1:17

Oh , thank you so much . I'm so honored

1:19

to be here and I'm really excited to

1:21

chat with you about all things

1:23

Cohort , syssys , doctoral

1:26

degree etc . Absolutely

1:29

.

1:29

So can you introduce yourself to us for

1:32

folks who don't yet have the pleasure

1:34

of knowing who you are ?

1:36

Where are you ?

1:36

from when do you currently live now

1:38

and what are some of the things that you like to do when you're not

1:41

working and running around the kids ? We

1:43

were just talking about kids before we started recording

1:45

. So when you're not wrangling the kids , what

1:47

do you like to do for yourself ?

1:49

Yeah , that sounds good . So

1:51

, as Dr Ajioma mentioned , I'm

1:53

Brenda Dogway and

1:55

I was born and raised in Kenya

1:57

actually , and

2:00

then I came to North America , so

2:02

to Canada , to study 25

2:05

years ago . Time goes really quickly . So

2:07

I came to Canada as

2:09

a teenager , did

2:11

the African thing and studied and studied

2:13

, and studied and then

2:16

I actually met my husband . So we

2:18

live in Chelsea in Quebec , which

2:20

is just close to Ottawa , which is the capital

2:22

of Canada , and we've been

2:24

here . We got married 12

2:27

years ago and we

2:29

got married in Ottawa . Actually , we met in Ottawa and

2:31

then we've just been

2:33

shepherding our kids here

2:36

and there and everywhere . In

2:38

terms of what I do when I'm not , well

2:40

, my plate is pretty

2:42

full most of the time

2:44

with three kids and

2:47

I've just taken upon a

2:50

few business ventures here and there

2:52

, but I think I

2:55

let these ventures kind of feed my

2:57

soul . I found that focusing

2:59

only on the nine to five is so

3:01

restrictive , and so these passion projects

3:04

kind of fuel me and keep me going . So

3:06

I'm a workaholic overachiever

3:09

and I own those titles

3:11

quite , quite , quite proudly actually

3:14

.

3:16

I actually like that framing of

3:18

owning the workaholic

3:20

and overachiever title . I feel like there's

3:22

so many people who and

3:24

not to say that we should be hustling

3:27

hard I'm not here for hustle culture and not

3:29

going to sleep and stuff like that but

3:31

I think it's okay to

3:34

say that you're an overachiever . That's okay . I

3:37

feel like that's okay . I appreciate that you

3:39

just said so .

3:40

You got it . I feel like , rather

3:43

than looking at it as like for folks

3:46

who don't get it , it's like , why are you doing too much

3:48

? Because it's part of who

3:50

I am and I think , the more

3:52

you do that internal healing work

3:54

and you're no longer doing it

3:56

out of a place of pain

3:59

or a place of frustration , but you're actually doing

4:01

it because it gives you satisfaction

4:03

and joy , I'm here for

4:05

it .

4:06

Yeah , yeah . That was the word

4:08

I needed today . I didn't even know

4:10

I needed that word , but thank you already .

4:12

Yes , yes , yes . So let

4:14

me take your hat . Yeah , because all

4:17

of your different hats are really beautiful

4:19

too , and I think it inspires

4:21

people to know that you could have multiple

4:23

hats and own them and not feel

4:25

like you need to diminish any one of them . Yes

4:29

, it's a word . It's a word .

4:31

Yes , yes , yes . So

4:34

I want to talk about your academic journey first , before

4:36

we get into some of the other work that you

4:38

do . How did you become interested

4:40

in public health ? You have an . Mph you

4:43

have a doctoral degree in public health

4:45

and population health . So how did you kind

4:47

of first get interested in this

4:49

field ? And I have a feeling that we're going to have a similar

4:51

life story . But let me hear your story .

4:54

So , as most

4:56

African kids , I was going to do

4:58

medicine . I

5:01

wanted to do medicine since

5:03

I was probably 12 . And

5:05

it wasn't one of those , you know , like you know African

5:08

parents doctor , lawyer , engineer

5:10

, architect or whatever Like . For me , I

5:13

was just always fascinated and

5:15

you know , okay , I can get all vulnerable

5:18

. I

5:20

had malaria when I was a kid

5:22

and had it pretty , pretty bad

5:24

, and that required

5:26

me going to the hospital a lot , just check

5:28

like hemoglobin levels and just make

5:30

sure that I'm okay , and all of that

5:32

being around that world , I think , really

5:35

inspired me up . Obviously , I saw

5:37

my doctor as a superhero . So from 12

5:39

, I was pretty much like I'm doing medicine

5:41

, I'm doing that , and so I

5:43

went all out . You know that overachieving

5:45

state . I used to volunteer

5:47

in hospitals in Kenya , actually when I was

5:49

a teenager , and when I look back I'm like

5:52

, wow , you are really like I was a nerd , nerd

5:54

. So I volunteered

5:56

just to , and at that time this

5:58

was in the 90s , if I'm aging

6:01

myself and

6:03

so AIDS was big . The

6:05

pandemic that , the AIDS epidemic

6:07

, was really huge and it was

6:10

not a pretty sight that you were seeing

6:12

in hospitals at that time , and so that

6:14

stuck with me . I was going to do medicine

6:16

, came over to Canada

6:18

to study . I did the

6:21

International Baccalaureate for folks who know , it's

6:23

like the last couple of years of

6:25

high school and then I did my undergrad

6:27

at UBC University of British Columbia

6:29

. Somewhere along the way

6:31

, the bookworm became

6:34

the party animal and

6:37

so I

6:39

had a streak like that adjusting

6:41

to freedom , whatever you want to call it and

6:44

so I was actually facing

6:46

academic probation at some point and I was going to

6:48

be kicked out of university . And so

6:50

I was a science

6:52

major and I had taken

6:54

on women's studies for

6:56

like as an elective , for fun . I

6:59

always believed in equity and

7:01

equality and all that , and I was doing

7:03

a lot better in the

7:05

women's studies than I was in the science

7:07

. Like organic chemistry did me and

7:10

failed like three times

7:12

, you know . So let's , let's . You

7:14

know organic chemistry . I don't

7:16

understand , but it's all good , you know

7:18

, at least this is the story

7:20

turns around . So

7:22

at some point I think I had to switch

7:24

majors because I was just not

7:26

doing as well in the science . It was really hard

7:28

for me because I was a science student

7:30

, like an A student up until then , and

7:34

I was like , okay , let's salvage , let's pivot

7:36

, let's finish this degree . And so I

7:38

graduated my undergrad with a Bachelor

7:40

of Arts in political science

7:42

and women's studies , but

7:45

most of my transcript was actually science courses , and

7:47

so when I was done , I was trying

7:49

to find a backdoor into medicine

7:51

and I was like , okay , I'm not going

7:53

to do a science master is because clearly

7:56

, like organic chemistry , we're not going to go , you

7:58

know , we're not going to go back there . Public

8:01

health was the next . Like I didn't

8:03

really know as much about public health and

8:06

so in digging around us , like actually this

8:08

sounds pretty interesting , and so

8:10

I applied for for the MPH

8:12

, and at the time this

8:15

was post SARS . So all

8:18

these public health , you know , just like

8:20

this current pandemic post SARS

8:22

, there's a whole bunch of public health schools

8:24

that were being set up and a lot of putting

8:27

in resources into public health , and

8:30

so that's kind of how I ended up doing

8:32

public health . And then I was like I love this

8:34

, because everything about it is . What

8:36

interested me about medicine

8:38

was actually what ? What I was looking

8:41

at is the bigger picture , the macro

8:43

, like how do you help the population

8:45

, how do you deal with

8:47

inequities for different people's

8:49

and whatnot . And so I was like , oh

8:51

my gosh , I think I found my groove . And then what

8:54

I loved about it , too , is that it brought

8:56

together the science and the arts , because

8:58

until then I felt like a bit of an anomaly

9:00

with this science

9:02

transcript and then like one

9:05

year of arts and then suddenly you have a really

9:07

great . So it just made it , brought a bit of cohesion

9:10

and and ever since

9:12

I got into public health like absolutely love

9:14

it . And the best part of it , I think , is that

9:16

even when you

9:18

do public policy , health

9:20

is everything . So when you're looking at climate

9:22

change connects to

9:25

health . You're looking at the built environment

9:27

, it relates to health , and so all

9:29

doesn't feel lost . And so I

9:32

applied to med school the last time I think

9:34

it was 2008 and I gave it . I think

9:36

I'd apply three times . I did my final shot

9:38

and said , if this doesn't work , I'm laying

9:40

this dream to , I'm burying it and

9:43

I'm leaving it be . And so I didn't

9:45

get in and I'm like I really actually felt

9:47

a release , like okay , I don't have to pursue

9:49

that dream anymore . And

9:52

then , when I finished my master's , this was the

9:54

recession of 2008

9:56

, and so jobs are hard to come

9:59

by . A lot of industries are

10:01

shutting down . So what do you do ? You just

10:03

go to more school , because at the time I

10:05

was single no husband , no kids

10:07

. I like , what do I have to lose ? So

10:09

I say that's how I got into my PhD

10:11

. And looking

10:14

at it from a population health perspective again

10:16

, it just brought all the different pieces

10:18

together .

10:20

Yeah , I have two

10:22

quick follow up questions . One is

10:24

what high school did you go to in ?

10:28

So I went to Valley Road . Tell

10:31

me if you know you'll start digging people up , but

10:33

I went to Valley Road for high school

10:35

and I went to St Mary's for

10:37

a brief stint before

10:40

I moved on to Canada to finish my

10:42

I be there , so I've got some saints

10:44

connections and LCVR connections

10:47

.

10:50

And my mouth is like because my husband went

10:52

to St St Mary's like his whole life , Okay

10:55

, a life for kids . so the

10:57

only reason I ask and this is like

10:59

so irrelevant for people who are not familiar

11:01

with life in Kenya- One

11:05

of the most surprising things about like when

11:07

I , whenever I'm in Kenya and when I

11:09

we were living here is

11:11

people like really hold on

11:13

to like their high school in a way that is

11:16

not the case in America

11:18

, and so I'm always fascinated

11:20

by I think I was like by the

11:22

high school .

11:22

Hi , I'm so , and so I went to St

11:25

St Mary's .

11:27

No one cares what high school you went to

11:29

, at least in Nairobi . So I just I wanted

11:31

to ask to see we care , we can .

11:33

We have a , we have a high school what's up

11:35

group where

11:37

we keep up and we have one for

11:40

our , our year , and then we have

11:42

one for the whole school . And

11:44

it was small school , so intimate

11:47

. Most people know most people older

11:49

siblings went to the same school .

11:51

So yeah , yeah , that

11:53

to me is like always one of the most fascinating things about

11:55

like Kenyan culture . Anyway , completely

11:57

unrelated my my other related

12:00

follow up question was

12:02

so something that I've

12:04

kind of noticed as I talked to more and more people

12:06

is , for some people , the

12:09

especially for folks who kind of started off in medicine

12:11

and ended up in public health or over

12:13

the field the pivot

12:15

sometimes is is you know

12:17

organic chemistry or just like not ? either

12:20

not doing well in science , hard science

12:22

courses , or realizing that that's actually

12:24

not what you care about , but you mentioned

12:26

another thing , which is after you finished your masters

12:29

. It was there , you were in a recession , you

12:31

graduated in a recession , and so I

12:33

would love for you to just talk a little bit about

12:35

how the

12:38

the timing of the

12:40

like political economic climate

12:42

also shaped and influenced your

12:44

academic and then subsequently , your

12:47

career path and why bring this ? up

12:49

is because , you know , we're currently

12:51

in a very strange

12:53

, like a very dynamic , time

12:55

, and so I'm sure there are people who are finishing their

12:57

doctoral degree right now and are not really sure

12:59

, especially where to go and not academic

13:02

career , even if it was academic career , but especially

13:04

for not academic career , like these are really weird

13:06

right now , like lots of layoffs happening

13:08

. You know hiring freezes everywhere

13:11

. So just let me to kind of talk a little bit about you

13:13

know your experience kind of finishing one

13:15

degree . I know it wasn't your doctorate when that happened , but

13:17

finishing a degree and kind of like coming out into

13:19

the job force during a recession ?

13:22

Sure , so I I finished

13:25

in 2008 , my

13:27

master's and at

13:29

that time so you can imagine again

13:31

Obama was like elected

13:34

. Yes , we can like this , this buzz

13:37

. It was a challenging

13:39

time for me because I came to Canada

13:41

to study , like my parents , everybody's in

13:43

Kenya , and so that was

13:45

a big cross . Like I had a number of crossroads

13:48

, but that particular one was a big crossroad

13:50

because there was also like the great return

13:52

. I know there's been like the great return

13:55

to Ghana recently and he had

13:57

our great return to Kenya , so so all

13:59

of my friends were returning and

14:02

you know , for folks again who might not

14:04

know Kenya or know

14:06

the names of schools or whatever , like

14:08

the two schools I mentioned , our private

14:11

schools , a lot of people are really well connected

14:13

. For me , my , my family

14:15

, like my dad , was a retired

14:18

public servant , but

14:21

again , he , you know the type

14:23

of connections that people were leveraging

14:25

to move back . I just didn't feel

14:27

that I had them and so I

14:30

was trying to figure out where , where

14:32

does it make more sense to to be ? At

14:34

that time I was a Canadian permanent

14:36

resident and so it just

14:39

made sense that you know what I mean . Like

14:41

see the see the citizenship thing through

14:43

. It's going to give you more options

14:45

ultimately in life if you choose to stay in Canada

14:47

, if you choose to return , etc . And

14:49

so I I got

14:51

this research internship . It really

14:53

shouldn't be called an internship because we

14:56

were professionals , but they named it an

14:58

internship . We fought the name to the nail

15:00

but it was with the International

15:02

Development Research Center and

15:04

they are a Crown Corporation of Canada

15:06

. They do research , they fund

15:08

research in Africa

15:11

and developing not just Africa but developing

15:13

countries . And so it was . I had done

15:15

. My concentration was actually in global health

15:17

because I always wanted to return

15:20

in one way or another . And so

15:22

doing the research internship was great because

15:24

it afforded me the opportunity to actually go

15:26

and do research in Kenya and

15:29

I spent about three months no

15:32

paid trip home , basically strategically

15:35

paid trip home , but I did

15:37

get to again talk to folks in the

15:39

health system and this and that , and that really

15:41

allowed me to get a bit more

15:43

of the professional experience within

15:47

that Kenyan context , cause I hadn't really actually

15:49

lived or worked in Kenya . And

15:52

then , following that , actually

15:54

through that research internship , one

15:56

of the research interns was doing research with

15:59

a professor who was looking at

16:01

migration of health workers and

16:03

from Kenya and from various

16:05

countries , and so it was such a the

16:09

connection made sense in terms

16:11

of research areas and there was a lot of synergy

16:13

in that are areas of interest . So

16:16

at that time she

16:18

was like , hey , you should come and work

16:20

for me . And I was looking for a job . So

16:22

I was like , sure . So I initially joined

16:25

her research team as a research coordinator

16:27

Great job , postmasters

16:30

Like you're getting to work with researchers , understand

16:32

the research world . And then , I

16:34

think about eight months in

16:36

she was like , hey , do a PhD . And I was

16:38

like , hey , no husband , no kids . Like

16:40

sure , no job , no

16:43

other job . I think in

16:45

retrospect I should

16:47

have read the fine print . So I

16:49

really didn't , so I

16:51

hadn't got funding secured

16:54

. And she was like , yeah , yeah , yeah , we're gonna do it

16:56

, we're gonna figure it out . But we never

16:58

really did and so it really

17:01

made for a very challenging doctoral experience

17:03

, just because both

17:06

I had to basically pay for it and

17:08

, as you know , undergrad

17:10

is one thing . I think masters is very intense

17:12

, but PhD is long , so

17:14

it was a long , hard journey . So I

17:17

think the first couple of years I

17:19

had some side hustle consulting

17:21

that was helpful , and

17:23

then I had some teaching assistantships . I was able

17:25

to kind of hobble through and make it work

17:27

and then I was able to secure

17:30

a couple of grant funding for

17:32

the field work and that also really

17:34

helped when I came back

17:36

. I think that's where it got tricky , because

17:39

by this point I was married and then we

17:41

had our first child and

17:44

now broke

17:46

. Student life is hashtag , is

17:48

not hashtag A Right Like

17:52

. It's a very different scenario , like

17:54

drinking water , eating pizza as

17:56

opposed to feeding a child and finding

17:58

for somebody . And my husband at the time was

18:00

finishing off his master's too . So

18:02

we were students and

18:05

so that's where I think the experience

18:07

and I really I commend you for the cohort

18:10

sisters program because

18:12

that's what I needed at

18:14

that time and I wish I had , and

18:17

so being able to give back

18:19

, even if it's just sharing your story

18:21

, being a mentor or

18:23

whatever , I think for me it's doing the thing

18:25

that I wish I had at that time . But

18:27

navigating PhD

18:31

I think mid PhD I

18:33

had done my data collection and

18:36

I had done my . How

18:38

our program was structured is you did your comprehensive

18:41

exams , then you defended

18:43

your proposal for your research and

18:45

then you did your field work

18:48

. So when I was done all of that . My

18:52

we're still playing cat and mouse in terms of

18:55

funding . So you have funding or you don't . Now you do it

18:57

, now you don't . And at that point I was just like you know

18:59

what , forget this . So I applied to

19:01

jobs mid PhD program

19:03

. My supervisor sabotaged

19:05

a couple of them . You

19:08

heard that here .

19:12

Wait , okay , is that by like

19:14

writing poor letters of recommendation or

19:16

?

19:16

Yeah , so I had a couple of interviews

19:19

where , like it was , like you know

19:21

, you landed the job . They're like where do you want your

19:23

desk to be ? When can you start this ? And that Spoke

19:26

to references oh , where are

19:28

we thinking our options , where this and that

19:30

? And so it happened twice for really what

19:33

I would say like senior jobs , like senior analyst

19:35

jobs that were really solid . And so

19:37

when I applied to

19:40

the Canadian government in public

19:42

health , I did not put her as a reference

19:44

. Guess who got the job . So

19:47

you do the math . Yeah

19:50

, so , and that was it , as I just

19:52

put the PhD on hold and decided to work

19:55

because in that season

19:57

, being a broke student was just not sustainable

19:59

.

20:00

Yeah , Okay , well , ooh okay

20:03

.

20:04

So much to unpack .

20:06

So much to unpack . Okay

20:08

, before this point , did you ? Feel

20:10

like you know , aside from the , as you called

20:13

it , the cat and mouse funding , did you

20:15

feel like that ? Your supervisor was

20:17

supportive of you until

20:19

you found out that she was sabotaging , or they were sabotaging

20:22

, your efforts

20:24

to get a job . But before then was everything kind

20:26

of going smoothly .

20:27

I think things were going smoothly for the

20:29

most part . My take on

20:32

and maybe it's a little different in the States

20:34

, but my loose

20:36

take on North American PhDs

20:38

is that they're really long drawn

20:41

and a lot of the time

20:43

the supervisors squeeze

20:45

as much out of you as they can while

20:47

you're cheap labor , free labor

20:50

, and that's the part that was just not sitting

20:52

well with me and so for us

20:54

. I think that the tension started early

20:56

because I worked with her to get

20:58

the research grant funding , and

21:01

you know I don't want to throw names people under the bus

21:03

, but the long and short of it was that , despite

21:06

the fact that we had received funding

21:08

for the project , I was never given

21:11

funding for as a student , and

21:14

so it's really hard

21:16

to have a great harmonious relationship

21:18

when you're trying to navigate things like

21:20

this . But it's something that happens

21:23

often and it's not to single out the supervisor

21:25

that I had . Like I

21:27

knew a lot of students who

21:29

had a lot of promise when

21:32

they came into the program and

21:34

then weren't really supported

21:37

when it comes to the funding , and so I

21:39

was supported in the research , in

21:41

the articles , in the this and that , but

21:43

if you don't have your base funding , then

21:46

you're not really supported because it's a really it's

21:48

a fundamental part , because now you have to hustle

21:51

and you got to do this and you got to do that . And

21:54

so I think I'll

21:56

also say that I was never

21:58

in it to be a

22:00

professor , like I don't think my

22:03

end goal was ever really a

22:05

professor , and the more I saw

22:07

about , the more I saw the life of

22:09

professors I'm like so

22:13

I commend . I have

22:15

tons of PhD friends who've

22:18

really gone . I think

22:21

for me it was that 10 , 15 years of

22:23

grinding to then breathe

22:25

out and I was like I don't

22:28

know , I want money , I

22:30

want to be paid , so

22:33

, and public health is an interesting field because

22:35

it is very applied and it is

22:37

very , very it's

22:39

not your typical lab PhD

22:42

and so I think there's a

22:44

lot of opportunity . One of the things I

22:46

liked about working with

22:48

my supervisor was that she did a lot

22:51

of consulting for provincial government

22:53

, federal government , and I think it opened my eyes

22:55

into public

22:57

health applied outside of

23:00

the university

23:02

setting and I think that has really helped

23:04

actually shape my career . So

23:07

it's not all doom and gloom , because there's

23:09

a silver lining in there somewhere

23:12

.

23:13

Okay , I'm glad you're able to see it

23:15

, girl .

23:18

Therapy , okay , healing journey

23:21

.

23:23

Yeah , I was gonna say something

23:25

cuz I had a similar . I

23:28

also did a public health doctoral degree , but

23:30

it was like history of public health . It was house in a

23:32

school of public health . I was really immersed

23:34

in that field and one thing that really

23:37

threw me off , that I didn't realize . I feel like

23:39

it's pretty unique to public health is that it's

23:41

a soft money field where

23:43

, like , you have to . Maybe this is kind

23:45

of shape your relationship , or what kind of went awry

23:47

with your supervisor at the time is that you

23:50

often have to bring your own salary , like

23:53

through grants , as a faculty member

23:55

, and the day I like learned

23:57

that I was like , so I gotta work

23:59

to pay myself , but like , but

24:02

you're paying me , but I'm hired the

24:05

math . That

24:07

I do feel like public health , like being

24:10

a Pursuing the academic route

24:12

, and public health is is really

24:14

not for the fainter part because it's incredibly

24:16

Grant-based and

24:18

your position is like your position

24:21

as a faculty member in some ways is grant

24:23

funded . Yeah , I was at

24:25

least that , that's how it was at

24:27

my institution . So Wow

24:30

, that is . I'm still

24:32

like reeling over over the sabotage

24:35

. But when

24:37

you did kind of get the job

24:39

, did you kind of then put your

24:42

Dissertation on pause

24:44

? At that point , are we still kind of working on it

24:46

simultaneously as you were doing your full-time

24:48

job ? How did you juggle ? I got

24:50

a work that actually used to like eat . If

24:54

I also like want to finish this PhD because

24:56

the longer I stay here , the more money that's

24:58

costing . How did you navigate those ?

25:00

Yeah , no , great , great question . And

25:02

so I , you know I put it

25:04

on hold . I was just like , okay , data collection

25:06

is done . I think I had I'd outsourced

25:09

the transcribing , so I had

25:11

somebody who was Transcribing

25:13

for for me and getting all of that done

25:15

, and I was doing my thesis , my papers . So

25:17

I had some loose drafts of the papers , but

25:19

I never really they

25:23

weren't ready . And then I

25:25

found out I was expecting twins and

25:27

so I was like I

25:29

better finish this thing , because if I don't

25:32

, I hate , I just won't . And

25:34

that was really , that was really the impetus

25:36

, was that okay , now I have

25:39

, I have momentum , because

25:41

if I don't finish this , I will never

25:43

finish , and I like to finish what I start

25:46

. And so I Was

25:48

kind of fortunate this was 2016

25:52

, such a while ago , but I was . I was fortunate

25:54

that the the

25:56

my twin pregnancy was pretty uneventful

25:59

, which is a good thing . But

26:01

I did have . I was

26:03

able to work from home at that time , and you know

26:05

we're now so used to it , but at

26:07

that time it was such a big deal to be actually

26:09

able to work from home full-time and

26:12

so that cut commute time for

26:14

me and it just meant that when I was

26:16

done , I could focus , and then my

26:19

husband would take the toddler away hey

26:21

, often just park

26:23

, you know , entertain him while I . I would

26:25

write , especially towards the end of

26:27

the pregnancy I had pregnancy insomnia

26:30

. I couldn't sleep . So I just I wrote is

26:32

it was my nesting , if you want to call

26:34

it that weird nesting , but that was my nesting , is I

26:36

just have to get it done ? And so

26:38

Wrote through it , you

26:40

know , got the people to like my

26:42

committee reviewed it . I had friends , everybody

26:45

like I just got the village together . I

26:47

had PhD friends who read my manuscripts

26:50

for me and gave me their , their

26:52

feedback . And then I I

26:55

Submitted my thesis five days

26:57

before giving birth . So I

26:59

I was like , do you do ? And I think the week

27:02

before that my supervisor was like maybe

27:04

we should push it . I was like we're not pushing

27:06

anything , lady , listen , these babies

27:08

are coming , it's being

27:11

submitted . And so I submitted my dissertation

27:13

. Dissertation five days

27:15

later , had the babies and

27:17

then I defended my thesis . I think they

27:20

were three months old when

27:23

I went to defend and the committee

27:25

was really lenient , like not lenient

27:27

, which is not to say like not to take away

27:29

from the hard work that went into it , but I think

27:31

they were gentler , just knowing that you

27:33

know you didn't sleep like for the past three

27:35

months or whatever it is , and and

27:37

you know , but it was , it was , it was it

27:39

felt really good to be done

27:41

and the juggle was

27:44

just , I think , hormons

27:47

. I blame it on the hormones

27:49

and nesting , but

27:51

I was , it was honestly with a huge weight

27:53

off my shoulders and I was glad

27:55

that it was locked and loaded .

27:58

That is amazing . I

28:01

I challenge anyone who

28:03

has defended PhD

28:06

with Twin three-month-olds

28:08

at home to come and

28:11

show themselves , because I've never heard of that

28:13

. That is astounding

28:16

.

28:16

I Do , I look back

28:18

and I don't know .

28:19

That doesn't mean that you're not like a superhero

28:22

. Yes

28:24

, I'll take the cake at work , but that's still

28:26

amazing . That is absolutely

28:28

astounding . Wow

28:31

, wow , wow . I so I feel like , because

28:33

I'm right there and I have a four-month-old

28:35

.

28:36

You know yes .

28:37

I'm like , if I there's nothing , nothing

28:40

that could get me to go

28:42

and stand up in front of people and explain my

28:44

research right now , I don't care

28:46

you

28:49

, I don't you for pushing through

28:51

.

28:52

You get the babies you need for that

28:54

season because I think they

28:56

the twins were really they

28:59

were as easy

29:01

as easy babies could be . So

29:03

they were sleeping through the night from

29:05

two months and I mean like

29:08

11 hours , like both of

29:10

them . So we

29:12

were like I remember the first time they slept through

29:14

the night and we're like did you wake up ? No , did you

29:16

know ? No , okay , like you know . And

29:18

so we were in this weird

29:21

Rested state and then

29:23

the toddler was going to daycare and

29:25

they were just , they were just happy babies

29:27

, and so you

29:29

get . I think you get what you need for that season

29:31

and and that's who we need . Don't

29:34

ask me about them being toddlers . That was a whole

29:36

different experience Before

29:38

that season . They they understood the assignment

29:41

, so they did their part and we all kind

29:43

of we got through it .

29:47

Love it , I love it , I love it . So I want to

29:49

now talk a little bit about your post

29:51

doctoral career , your non-academic

29:54

career . How did

29:56

your academic experience

29:59

and your even

30:01

prior to you starting your

30:03

doctoral degree , the work that you did After

30:05

your master's degree , how did some of that work Contribute

30:08

to your transition and your success

30:10

in the public sector would

30:12

? love to speak to some of the skills or

30:14

Experiences that you picked up

30:16

while you were doing your master's degree

30:19

or working before your doctoral degree or during your

30:21

doctoral degree . That really positioned

30:23

you as a strong candidate for public

30:26

sector work .

30:28

No , great question . I think

30:30

I've always Maintained some

30:32

level of work experience and

30:34

I know a lot of folks who go into

30:36

academia . Really they

30:38

have their nose to the ground and you're

30:41

focused on you know academics

30:43

, publishing and really building that

30:45

career . I mean building yours scholarly

30:48

, you know Repertoire , if you want to call it

30:50

that , I think , one . A

30:52

couple of the things that helped was having

30:54

always Some level of work experience

30:57

active on my resume . So

30:59

when I , when I finished my undergrad

31:02

, I worked for a couple of years at the university

31:04

like enrollment services and again

31:06

, you know , just building , building those Connectors

31:10

between school and and

31:12

work . And then within my master's

31:14

, you know , after finishing that , I did that one-year

31:17

research internship and that really helped

31:19

again build a

31:21

professional experience . And part of

31:23

that research internship opened

31:25

my eyes to the place for PhDs

31:28

outside of academia because they were quite

31:30

an um , because it's a research center

31:33

. They had quite a number

31:35

of PhDs working as senior

31:38

program officers , overseeing

31:40

like research grants

31:42

and whatnot , and they they

31:45

leveraged their skills by using

31:47

their understanding of the research world to

31:49

bring that into the professional workplace . So

31:51

having a bit of those mentors

31:53

slash examples really helped

31:56

that you could actually see that there is a life outside

31:58

of the academic four walls , if

32:00

you want to call it that . And then

32:02

undergrad , I mean for a PhD , I

32:04

just had a hustle . So when

32:07

you don't have funding , you're going to have to find creative

32:09

ways to um , to to

32:11

bring the money in , or whatever you want to call it . And

32:14

so I did a couple

32:16

of consulting contracts where

32:18

, again , they're leveraging your expertise . I did

32:20

a couple with that were actually linked

32:23

to my PhD , and so that

32:25

synergy was easy . And

32:28

and then pivoting into the professional

32:31

world , I think one of the

32:33

first things that I found really shocking

32:35

is just not just how

32:37

unwelcome PhDs can

32:39

be in the professional scene

32:42

, but also you can be viewed

32:44

as intimidating . There

32:47

is career blocking for PhDs If

32:49

you have a manager who has a bachelor's

32:51

and who thinks that if they give you experience

32:54

, then you're going to take over , you're going to , you

32:56

know , grow faster , further

32:58

or whatever . So one

33:01

thing I heard often is you know , if you're going

33:03

to work in the government , especially Canadian government

33:05

, don't put your PhD on there . You

33:08

want to put that on the download ? Um , I

33:10

think for me how I pivoted

33:12

, it is again just looking at it as

33:14

a , as a plus and not a minus , and so gravitating

33:17

towards roles that validate

33:19

that experience , whether that's , you

33:21

know , within public health . So I worked within the public

33:24

health agency where , uh , the

33:26

Canadian public health agency and again

33:28

that skill set is directly linked

33:30

Um . And then , when I left

33:32

um , finding fields where

33:34

that science background is is valued

33:37

and validated . And so one

33:39

of the roles I played um was that

33:41

as a director of strategic policy

33:43

, um , but looking at science and technology

33:45

policy , and again it

33:48

becomes a plus that you don't need a science

33:50

background to play that role , but when you understand

33:52

the research world , granting funding , et

33:54

cetera , um , you bring that

33:56

, that's like your secret sauce that you bring to

33:58

the job , um . And so , touching on one

34:00

of the questions you asked around soft skills , um

34:03

, I think one of the amazing things about

34:05

a PhD is it really makes

34:07

you resilient , um , it makes you

34:09

creative . You're resourceful , you

34:11

know where to find information quickly

34:14

, right , um , and and all

34:16

those are skills that are really

34:19

valuable in the workplace . And then you

34:21

also I mean , if you're , if you're overseeing

34:23

your research project , you're managing it right , like

34:25

you have a research budget , even if no matter how

34:27

little that budget is , like . You have a budget that you're

34:29

overseeing . You got to spend the dollars wisely

34:31

If you're bringing in a team that's going

34:34

to help you transcribe this and that , like each

34:36

and every one of those skills , are directly

34:38

not just transferable but valued in the

34:40

professional place . So it's really about reframing

34:44

and repackaging yourself so that you

34:46

can then , um

34:48

, bring those skills to the workplace .

34:50

Right , right .

34:51

Yeah .

34:52

But I I love the piece

34:54

about you know , thinking about

34:56

your the skills as kind of like project

34:58

management . So you're managing your project and

35:01

you're managing , potentially , a team , and that

35:03

framework is something that we often

35:05

use in our mentorship program

35:07

, kind of explaining to people who are disorienting

35:10

that this is a project

35:12

, this is a long term , a multi year project

35:15

that you have to manage from start to finish and

35:17

you are completely responsible for it . Yes

35:19

, your advisor is there to support you and you know

35:21

. Yes , you have your co-op mates

35:23

and other people who are there to support you . But , like , this is

35:26

your project and being able to translate

35:28

that to a resume

35:30

or a CV and our job application , I

35:32

think is really critical . But it's just about

35:35

branding , it's just about the language that you use

35:37

it is , it is multi year like

35:40

five research project

35:42

with multiple stakeholders

35:44

, right Interdisciplinary

35:47

international team , often right

35:49

Like so .

35:50

There's a lot of ways , I think in academia

35:52

it's almost like well , you don't

35:54

dare call yourself a primary , exact

35:57

primary investigator until you have

35:59

the full title , whereas in the work

36:01

world you are a primary investigator . So

36:03

it really is about positioning and

36:05

framing , because all of those

36:07

skills are things that would and

36:09

, again , you're investing years into

36:12

it . It's not something that you're , it's an overnight

36:14

thing , right Like at least four

36:17

years minimum of really

36:19

focused in an area . So you are an expert

36:21

, or subject matter expert you are

36:23

. There's so many ways in which you can embellish

36:26

what you really

36:28

actually have .

36:29

It's just it's telling the true . Representing

36:32

, representing , representing , yeah

36:34

packaging it in a way that is palatable

36:36

and understandable to non-academic

36:39

folks . So I want

36:41

to now talk about your , the other

36:44

work that you do . So tell us a little bit about

36:46

career slave mama , about a complify

36:48

why did you start both of those

36:50

ventures and what do they serve

36:53

for you ? And then

36:55

, third piece of the question so why

36:57

did you ? start them . What are they kind of ? How

36:59

do they help you and what do you kind

37:01

of ? How do they fit into your vision for your life ? And

37:04

then , how does your doctoral degree

37:06

inform those two different worlds

37:08

and works , if at all ? And it was a very

37:10

like complicated question , but hopefully you got it .

37:12

Yes no , we'll get through it . We'll get through it . So

37:14

so , career slave mama . I started

37:17

as a blog mid

37:20

pandemic Mother's Day of the pandemic

37:22

and I was just coming

37:25

out of what felt

37:27

like a 10 year period of

37:29

grinding , which is not

37:31

to say that I'm fully out of it , but

37:33

the the , the preceding

37:35

10 years , like that decade of the 30

37:38

to 40 was like PhD

37:40

, marriage , small children and

37:43

and just feeling like I was just on the

37:45

go and the go and the go and just not taking time

37:47

. I felt like I lost myself in all

37:50

of that and I

37:52

had , I had

37:54

an event that really forced me to

37:56

reflect on kind of who I was , and

37:58

I remember speaking to a therapist

38:01

at the time and they're like , what do you like ? And

38:03

I'm like changing

38:05

diaper , like you know what I mean , like when

38:07

you're just like what do I like ? I

38:09

couldn't even name the reading

38:12

walking , like I couldn't really put

38:14

into words the things that I like , because I feel

38:17

like I lost myself into roles

38:19

, whether it's at work or at home , or

38:21

kids and this and that love them . But you know

38:23

, you know how it goes , and so it was

38:26

for me a space that I

38:28

wanted to create , to just

38:30

pour into myself creatively

38:33

. And so initially it started really as

38:35

a blog and launched it

38:37

, like I said , mother's Day pandemic

38:40

. We didn't know how long we were going to be in lockdowns

38:42

. It became a passion project . To be honest , it

38:44

carried me through the pandemic quite a bit because

38:46

just giving you something to write

38:49

about , something to reflect on and

38:51

not just think about how we were locked down and

38:53

we didn't know how long it was going to be

38:55

. And I've been again . I've been giving

38:57

career advice , whatever mentorship

39:00

advice , in one way or another in my circle

39:02

for years . So I

39:05

was like , hey , let's make this a hustle

39:07

because you know , overachiever right , like if we're

39:09

gonna do it , gotta do it , go all the

39:11

way . So I

39:14

then began to kind of pivot into

39:17

exploring career coaching and

39:19

just learning a lot about formalizing

39:22

what it was that I was doing kind of on the side

39:24

. And somewhere in

39:26

there I was trying to reconcile , like I

39:28

like the name Korea Slay Mama , but if

39:31

I'm gonna give a corporate workshop , I don't know

39:33

if they really want to bring

39:35

in the Slay Mama to tell

39:38

them about what they need to do , and

39:41

so part of that is how , you know , kind of pivoted

39:43

into a compli-fie is the more you

39:45

know polished , palatable

39:48

, corporate , friendly face

39:50

of what it is that we do , and

39:53

then bringing together again skills in

39:55

strategic planning , strategic thinking

39:57

, offering it both from

39:59

a workshop perspective or one-on-one

40:01

in terms of individuals . One

40:04

thing I did realize is when I went into

40:06

full-on business mode with Korea Slay

40:08

Mama , it lost the fun . It

40:10

felt like another task , another

40:13

um , another responsibility

40:16

. So I had to kind of take a step back

40:18

and pick and choose , kind of sift

40:20

through what were the stuff that I find fun

40:23

and enjoyable and soul-feeding , and

40:25

then what are the things that are more you know need

40:28

to be done and a little you know

40:30

, just making sure that I was not losing sight

40:32

of that space where it was supposed to be

40:34

something that's enjoyable and not another responsibility

40:37

, and so that's kind of helped me

40:39

, you know shift between the two

40:41

where I think I'm able

40:44

to also have better boundaries but also

40:46

leave that space . I just want to be fun

40:48

, I can have that fun . And

40:51

the podcast I think , um

40:53

, as you know , creating

40:55

content . Creating

40:58

content is very it can be

41:00

very draining and and

41:02

and just time consuming , and so

41:04

I was like I need a , I

41:06

need a way . There's , there has to be a way

41:09

out of this that's not just spending hours on Canva

41:11

creating Corosal or whatever you want to call

41:13

them , um and and

41:15

so podcast just seemed to be a way to

41:17

go , because then , um , it's

41:19

a little bit more scripted , controlled

41:21

, repurposeable , um , but allowing

41:24

me to again carry those conversations beyond

41:26

me , beyond logging into something that

41:28

again I can engage in . I've met so many

41:31

neat people through through that process

41:33

and again there's a bit of catharsis

41:36

, healing , with just speaking to black professionals

41:38

, hearing their experiences , and there's

41:40

having those a harm movement , so so

41:43

that's kind of been how we brought everything together

41:45

and and the the juggle is

41:47

real , some days

41:49

the jungle is better than others , but

41:52

I found what I found

41:54

for me is , as long as something is kind of feeding

41:56

my soul , it gives me the energy

41:59

to do all the other things , and so that's

42:01

my . Put your oxygen mask first

42:04

is feed the soul , feed

42:06

the creative soul or whatever it is , and

42:08

then everything else will , will

42:10

find its balance in one way or another .

42:13

Yeah , you are speaking all

42:15

of my languages right now . I

42:18

feel like you completely understand . I

42:20

completely understand everything that you just said . I don't know

42:22

if anyone else understands where

42:24

you are . You know this idea about

42:26

when you're juggling a lot of things , making

42:28

sure that there's something that's still feeding your soul , cause

42:30

otherwise everything just feels like busy work

42:32

. So I appreciate that and hope

42:34

that that was a good reminder for other

42:37

people who might be either interested in

42:39

pursuing kind of side hustles or

42:41

other hobbies outside of their day job

42:43

or outside of their doctoral program , or

42:46

people who are kind of in the thick of it and kind of

42:48

juggling a couple of different things and starting

42:50

to get overwhelmed . Girl , just hold on

42:53

to the one thing that is bringing you joy

42:55

, that fills your soul , that restores you . Keep

42:58

that top of mind and that'll help give

43:00

you the energy to do the rest of it . I feel like that

43:02

was such amazing advice so I just

43:04

had to regurgitate it for the folks in case they asked

43:06

for the first time . So

43:11

, as we start to wrap up

43:13

, I would love to know what

43:15

is if you had to kind of do your

43:17

doctoral degree all over again for some

43:19

very strange reason . What

43:22

is something that you would do differently ?

43:26

Um , community . I think that would

43:28

be the number one thing I would seek out

43:30

is community and not just community

43:32

, cause we had a cohort within

43:34

our program and we've actually kept up

43:37

with each other . We were really small

43:39

, about 10 of us , and we've kept up through

43:41

the different life seasons . Every once in a while

43:43

we actually do get together . But

43:45

I think community especially as

43:48

a black woman seeking

43:51

community because the PhD

43:53

journey can be very lonely

43:56

, alienating , and you

43:59

just feel like you're alone . So

44:01

I think seeking community out would

44:03

be one of the things that I would do , and I'm really , like

44:05

I said , it's so amazing what you're

44:07

doing with Coord Sisters , cause it's exactly what

44:10

folks need to get through . The

44:13

second thing I would say is funding

44:15

, funding , funding , funding . Get that

44:17

funding situation sorted

44:19

before you embark

44:22

. And just

44:24

if you can't , I would have

44:26

delayed starting a year or two

44:28

later if that would have meant

44:30

getting the funding piece

44:32

figured out . I would

44:34

have deferred my start if it would have

44:37

meant that I would have just had a bit more time

44:39

to sort the funding out , because

44:41

again , I think that's what leaves you

44:43

feeling like you don't have options , you feel trapped and

44:46

you kind of it's just get

44:48

the funding situation figured out , and

44:51

then maybe the third quick thing I would say

44:53

is consider

44:56

not doing a North American PhD

44:59

, cause I think you're Not throwing

45:01

a North American on the bus . I

45:03

did , I

45:06

would say all with a baby right , like

45:09

right on out . I think I would say my

45:13

friends who did their PhDs

45:15

in Europe , their

45:18

programs were much shorter , they

45:22

had almost lecturer , slash , professor

45:25

status from the beginning of their

45:27

program and

45:29

I think the goal there

45:32

for at least a few friends

45:34

I'm not speaking for all programs , but

45:36

quite a number of friends who I have

45:38

had who did their PhDs

45:40

in Europe three

45:42

years , four years max . So there's

45:44

really this push to get you out of the program

45:46

, because I found a lot of people

45:48

within North America it's like let's prolongate

45:51

it just because you're a chief free laborer . So

45:54

I would say consider really the

45:56

type of program . Talk to

45:58

people . I remember our first

46:00

day for PhD . They

46:02

were like oh , the Canadian average

46:04

for completing a PhD

46:06

seven years . I'm like you could have put that in the

46:08

brochure , like you could have put that on

46:10

the website . You could have said you know . So

46:13

speak to people in the program just to

46:15

hear what's the average

46:17

, how long are people roughly taking

46:19

? And then I think the last thing

46:22

is just give yourself options . So as

46:24

much as you're doing a PhD to be in academia

46:26

, I think there's a lot the world

46:28

of this . There's

46:30

been quite a world of opportunities

46:32

that has opened up for PhDs in

46:35

not academic roles . And

46:37

just don't feel stuck . There

46:39

are a lot of options out there . And give

46:41

yourself those options from early

46:43

on , because then it just

46:45

allows you to not feel trapped

46:48

and just know that if this doesn't

46:50

work out . I've got at least three or four

46:52

of the things that I could fall back .

46:53

Yes , yeah , that

46:56

was always like my . It's really funny like my dad

46:58

would always say , like don't put all your eggs

47:01

in one basket , and he would say that about my

47:03

profession . He would say that about dating

47:05

. He would say about everything , Like don't put

47:07

all your eggs in one basket .

47:10

So thank you so much , so widely .

47:12

Both so wise you

47:14

shared you like , kind of tackle two

47:16

birds with one stone . So you answered the

47:18

question about something you would do differently and also

47:20

provided several pieces of really amazing

47:22

advice for current and prospective

47:24

Black women and non-binary doctoral students

47:27

. So thank you so much for joining us

47:29

on the Cohort Sys Podcast . Dr Dogby

47:31

, it's always a pleasure chatting with you

47:33

and we're so excited to have you as

47:35

such a critical member of the Cohort

47:37

Sys community , and we

47:39

will definitely be sharing more information

47:41

about COMPLEFI and Career

47:43

Slay MAMA with the rest of our

47:46

community in the show notes .

47:49

Sounds good . Thanks for having me and

47:51

thanks for all you're doing with the community as

47:53

well . Thank

48:41

you ,