0:13

Welcome to the Cohort Sisters podcast , where

0:15

we give voice to the stories , struggles

0:17

and successes of Black women and

0:19

non-binary folks with Doctor degrees . I'm

0:22

your host , dr Ijama Cola , and today

0:24

we are welcoming a groundbreaking educator

0:26

whose work has completely revolutionized

0:29

the landscape of education . Dr

0:32

Golnassar Mohamed received her PhD

0:34

in Literacy , language and Culture at

0:37

the University of Illinois , chicago , and

0:39

has a multifaceted career that has

0:41

spanned from K through 12 , classroom

0:43

education to school board leadership

0:45

and now as a professor , author

0:47

and speaker . Dr Mohamed

0:50

was named among the top 1% of

0:52

edu-scholar public influencers due

0:55

to her impact on policy and practice

0:57

. Dr Mohamed's instructional

0:59

model , outlined in the bestselling book

1:01

Cultivating Genius and Equity

1:03

Model for Culturally and Historically

1:05

Responsive Literacy , has resonated

1:07

through thousands of US schools and districts

1:10

, bridging the gap between research and

1:12

practice , with numerous awards

1:15

, accolades and a very well-deserving

1:17

transformative impact that reaches

1:19

from policy to classrooms , as

1:21

well as a second book now out called Unearthing

1:24

Joy A Guide to Culturally and

1:26

Historically Responsive Curriculum Instruction

1:28

. We welcome Dr Golnassar Mohamed

1:30

to the Cohort SIS's podcast .

1:33

Thank you so much . I'm so

1:35

happy to be here . I honor

1:37

what a beautiful group , cohort sisters

1:40

, and the work that you all are doing , so I'm so

1:42

thankful to be here , sis .

1:44

We're glad you're here too . So before

1:46

we kind of get into your work and your

1:48

doctoral journey and the book , the books let's

1:51

know a little bit about you when you're not

1:53

, you know , educating the world in all the

1:57

different ways that you educate . Where

1:59

are you from , where do you live now and

2:01

what do you like to do when you're not working ?

2:04

Well , I'm from the Chicago

2:06

area . I grew up in Gary , indiana

2:08

and around Chicago and

2:12

I felt like I've always known I wanted to teach

2:15

and teach people and

2:17

teach children in the world

2:19

. I'm currently in Chicago

2:22

. I just returned . I spent some time in Atlanta

2:24

in the warmth of the sun

2:26

and then I returned recently

2:29

maybe the last two years , two or three

2:31

years to Chicago to

2:34

take a position here . And

2:37

you know , when I'm not doing

2:39

the work that I do in the world

2:41

, I am resting

2:43

. I am trying to drink water

2:45

and walk and exercise

2:47

. I like to do nothing . I

2:50

like to read and write creative

2:52

things as well and

2:54

just spend time with my family . I

2:57

have a beautiful husband , beautiful daughter

3:00

and my parents

3:02

are with me

3:04

, and I

3:06

like to spend time with my family , my friends

3:08

, travel and

3:12

just be , just

3:14

be in a space of nothingness .

3:18

You are the first person on the

3:20

podcast , to my recollection , who

3:22

, when asked that question about what

3:24

do they do outside of work , said

3:26

rest , and so I love that

3:29

, because I would not even have thought

3:31

about that as a response . I love

3:33

that you shared that . As well as

3:35

really grounding yourself in family

3:37

and taking care of yourself and

3:39

just being so , how did you become

3:42

interested in literacy

3:44

, especially literacy in the black community

3:46

?

3:48

Well , I first became interested

3:50

in literacy due to my upbringing

3:53

as a Muslim . So a

3:55

lot of black people , like

3:57

in the 60s , took

3:59

on to

4:02

or studied and took up

4:04

Islam , the nation of Islam back

4:07

then and

4:09

they became Muslims , and my mother was one

4:11

of those people , right

4:14

. So it was like this kind

4:16

of combination for black liberation

4:18

, black justice and Islam and

4:20

peace , right and religion

4:22

through the faith . And so

4:24

, growing up as a Muslim , I

4:26

would read the Quran and

4:29

how . The Quran spoke about

4:31

literacy and the importance of reading and writing

4:33

and thinking . And there was this

4:35

particular verse in the Quran

4:38

named Ikra , and

4:40

Ikra in Arabic means to read

4:42

, to understand , to perceive , and

4:46

in the verse it said don't

4:48

just read words , but read the world

4:50

, read signs

4:53

, read to

4:55

understand context . And

4:58

that was my very first understanding of

5:00

literacy . I

5:02

wanted to not just read

5:05

words , but I wanted to read people

5:07

. There was also a verse

5:09

that says imagine

5:13

if all the oceans

5:16

were the ink to the pen

5:18

. That's

5:21

how much , I guess , rewards

5:24

or benefits that God can give you . And I just

5:26

thought that was such a great , beautiful metaphor

5:29

. I remember reading that as a kid and

5:31

I wanted to write , and every time I would

5:33

write , I would think about putting

5:36

the ink pen in the ocean . That

5:38

was my ink and I would just write

5:40

and I would have endless things to say and

5:42

all these ideas would come to me . And

5:45

then , growing older , like as a black

5:47

woman , I

5:49

lived in the library and when

5:51

I wanted to buy books I would save my

5:53

money and go to the thrift stores and the

5:55

Goodwill and I would build my own

5:58

collection at home and

6:01

I would get some of the best books for like 50

6:03

cents and things like that . And

6:05

I started to read Toni

6:07

Morrison and Gwendolyn Brooks and

6:10

Black Women and Maya Angelou

6:12

and they helped me to understand

6:15

the beauty of literacy and how literacy

6:17

is connected to freedom and liberation

6:19

and self-determination and defining who

6:21

we are , and so all of that

6:23

was kind of very pivotal for me later

6:26

studying literacy more formally

6:28

in college , yes .

6:32

So I was also one of those kids who I didn't buy

6:34

a lot of books but I read a lot of books

6:36

. My whole thing was like every

6:39

weekend at the library , like checking out

6:41

a whole stack of books that the librarian

6:43

was like you can't carry them and I was like watch

6:45

me . I will carry all 20 of

6:47

these books in my little scrawny hand . So

6:50

I also shared a real , true

6:52

love for reading when I was

6:54

younger . So you started

6:56

to mention your academic

6:59

trajectory . You studied literacy in college

7:01

. Can you just walk us through from

7:04

college to the doctoral

7:06

degree ? What were

7:08

some of the pivotal moments that even

7:10

inspired you to pursue a doctorate ? Did

7:14

you take time off between ? Did you go straight

7:16

through ? Can you walk us through your academic journey a little

7:18

bit ?

7:19

Absolutely . So I

7:21

will see you in after will . When I graduated

7:24

high school on enter college , there was a program

7:26

called Golden Apple Scholars of Illinois

7:28

, beautiful program that

7:30

takes maybe about 100 or so

7:32

young people who are in high

7:34

school or early years of college and

7:37

they train and prepare us on how

7:39

to be a teacher . They

7:41

train us in theory and practice

7:43

, research , scholarship , way before

7:46

we enter our program . So

7:48

you know , when I started my program in education

7:51

I got my undergraduate degree in

7:53

elementary education where I was hoping

7:56

to teach anywhere between K-8

7:59

, k-9 , great

8:01

levels . I really loved

8:03

middle school . So I to

8:05

teach middle school I had to get endorsements

8:08

. So my

8:10

endorsements were both social

8:12

studies and literacy and reading

8:14

particularly . So I was certified

8:16

. I took extra reading classes and literacy

8:19

classes and social sciences to

8:22

learn how to teach both of those great levels

8:24

I mean both of those contents in

8:26

middle school . So I became

8:28

a middle school teacher for a

8:31

number of years and then

8:33

I really wanted to go into leadership . I

8:35

would notice that I would do leadership

8:38

type things with my colleagues even my first

8:40

year teaching . I would do workshops

8:42

and programs . I mean it's like how much did I

8:44

know after one year of teaching . But I

8:47

created a workshop and

8:49

I wanted people to come , because I would

8:51

read an article or read a book and think I

8:53

knew it so well that I can

8:55

teach it to somebody else and at the heart

8:57

, at the heart of a teacher . That's what teachers

9:00

do . We read something , we want to share

9:02

it with the world , and so I would

9:04

do that . I would create workshops for teachers

9:06

. I would ask my principal if

9:08

I could have five ministers in every staff meeting

9:11

to teach something new to my colleagues , and

9:13

people would tell me to sit down . Who is this woman

9:16

? What is she doing ? She don't know nothing , you know

9:18

. They would say great thing and I didn't sit

9:20

down . But I noticed that

9:22

I had some leadership qualities

9:24

and that led to my

9:26

master's in leadership and administration

9:29

. I said , well , maybe I can do this

9:31

for the whole school and be a principal . And

9:33

I got to be interim principal for a

9:35

little bit and I'm like this is absolutely

9:38

not what I want to do . I was really

9:40

interested . I went back to myself

9:43

and I said , you know , when I

9:45

lead others and

9:47

lead teachers , it's always in the

9:49

realm of curriculum and instruction . And

9:52

I noticed , like the workshops

9:54

, the ideas

9:58

I would share , the modeling , I

10:00

would go into classrooms and show them what I was

10:02

doing . So I

10:04

said this is not really exactly

10:06

principal life , but

10:08

this is more so like a curriculum

10:11

leader , a coach or something

10:13

. So I used my degree , my master's

10:15

degree , to be

10:17

a literacy coach and then eventually

10:20

I became a curriculum

10:23

director , right where I

10:25

was working across

10:27

the district and across schools

10:30

, across children , across

10:32

different grades , all these things to really

10:34

lead curriculum and instruction in a district

10:36

, co-lead it with

10:39

a team of folks . And

10:41

I got to the point . And

10:43

now I'm in a district where

10:46

most of the students are black , most

10:49

of the school board , the teachers

10:51

, the police department is white , and

10:55

what came

10:57

with that , sadly , was not

10:59

knowing , honoring , loving our

11:01

kids the way we should . I

11:03

was working at a district level where I would

11:05

hear very harmful language spoken

11:08

about our parents , about our community

11:10

, and because a lot of

11:12

the folks lived in that community

11:14

, they thought they had the right to say whatever they

11:16

wanted to say about us . Even though the demographics

11:18

changed greatly , I would

11:20

notice that a lot of practices were

11:22

just not working , a lot

11:24

of the curriculum was very poor , and

11:27

I said to myself at

11:31

that time , my mind was I

11:33

have two choices Either I'm

11:35

going to stay here and sort

11:37

of move up the ladder , as people say , and

11:40

get into a position where I can impact

11:42

a school board , a district

11:44

more , maybe superintendency

11:46

, or

11:49

. But to be a superintendent , I

11:51

really should have been a principal a little longer . But

11:53

or I would go back

11:56

and kind of live out one of my other lifestreams

11:59

is to do what I do at a

12:01

different scale , which was to be a professor

12:03

, and so I chose the ladder

12:05

. I said maybe I

12:07

could have a different impact if

12:10

I can write , if I can train

12:13

teachers . Now , I didn't

12:15

think in my wildest dreams

12:17

that my impact would

12:19

be what it is today . I just thought

12:21

, like it will , I would train the next

12:23

generations of teachers in that state

12:25

, in that area , and it would have an impact

12:28

on that school district , which was

12:30

still wider . So I made the

12:32

choice to leave my job , and

12:34

I was very young at this time I

12:36

was , I was a district administrator

12:39

over people that were double

12:41

in my age and

12:44

I said , well , let me leave

12:46

and go to school

12:48

full time . So I chose a program

12:50

at UIC , university of

12:52

Illinois , chicago , because they had

12:54

a reputation for literacy , language

12:56

and culture and

12:59

they had strong professors there and

13:02

I wanted to study with them , I

13:04

wanted to learn from them and

13:06

I thought it'd be really cool to live in Chicago

13:08

. And my

13:11

father had come into my life and so

13:13

I had some personal motivations to

13:15

get to know him . And

13:17

that's when I entered

13:19

the language , literacy and culture program

13:22

at UIC

13:24

, where I became

13:26

a graduate student , full time

13:28

, taking major

13:31

pay cut from having

13:33

a salary to not having a salary . Because I

13:35

went full time , because I wanted

13:38

to do it like completely , I

13:40

wanted to be fully immersed in the

13:42

experience , and so for four

13:44

years I only took two classes

13:47

a semester and

13:49

I did not have a family of my own

13:51

. I wasn't married , I didn't have kids

13:53

, and so it was just me

13:55

and the archives , the library

13:58

, the books . Really , that was my

14:00

full time experience of learning

14:02

and

14:04

I finished my program in

14:06

four years , taking a lot of courses

14:08

on literacy and writing and reading

14:10

and history and

14:13

blackness , all the things

14:15

which led to my

14:17

dissertation study , which I can talk about

14:19

or not , but

14:22

it led to me finishing

14:24

and completing a dissertation which

14:26

really became

14:30

the pivotal moment that

14:33

helped to define and conceptualize

14:35

which later became my books and

14:38

the work that I do across the world

14:40

.

14:41

So I actually I do want to talk about your dissertation

14:44

, but I'm glad that you started to get

14:46

to the question before I got there , which is to

14:48

kind of link the dissertation and the work that

14:50

you did while you were in your graduate training

14:53

to the work that you do now . And the

14:55

reason why I would love for you to speak on this is because

14:57

lots of people in the Coheersons

14:59

community are current

15:02

doctoral students . Maybe they're writing their dissertations

15:04

now and they're trying to think , like you know , what

15:06

is the utility of this later on in life , like

15:08

what can it possibly become ? And

15:11

for people who are in bookfields

15:13

I was in a bookfield , I'm a historian it

15:15

was , you know , very clear to me that

15:17

, like you need to write the dissertation because

15:19

it will become a book , but that isn't necessarily

15:22

the case for all scholars . So would

15:24

love if you could talk about . You know , when

15:26

you were writing the dissertation , did

15:28

you think it would become a book ? And

15:31

then how did it evolve over

15:33

time to not just one book but two books , and

15:35

I'm sure there will be more and more works coming

15:38

in the future .

15:40

You know , I did not

15:42

think it would become a lot

15:44

of what it became . I mean , I don't know , my mind just

15:46

wasn't there . You know , when it got to

15:49

my doctoral

15:51

process , like a lot of students , I

15:53

was getting to become frustrated and tired

15:56

and I finished in like four

15:58

years , most people . It takes

16:00

them seven , ten years , you know , to

16:02

feel that and to experience . I mean to experience

16:05

that long of a time in a program . But

16:08

so I took I

16:11

did not want to be a professor at one point

16:13

either Because

16:15

I said to myself , well , will I

16:17

? Would I really have a larger impact

16:19

? I said maybe my best

16:22

place is to go back to the classroom . After

16:24

all of that , I was probably going to end up

16:26

back in the classroom because I said I'll

16:28

be directly with children , impacting their

16:30

lives . And that's a hard

16:32

something because you're always asking yourself

16:35

to what end , what is the purpose of

16:37

, why I'm doing this ? And again

16:39

, I wanted to . Impact was

16:41

very important to me because I'm in education

16:44

, working with schools , and and so

16:46

I was always going back and forth Well , I haven't

16:48

impacted being a principal , a superintendent

16:50

, a coach , a professor , a teacher

16:52

, educator , back to a teacher

16:55

again . So , and I think you

16:57

can have an impact anywhere . You can make

16:59

it be into whatever you want it to be . And

17:02

I had to notice something about myself . I

17:04

would be writing like

17:07

five to eight hours a day

17:09

. I would spend the night writing at

17:11

a 24 hour Starbucks . It

17:13

was the only place that was open

17:15

24 hours where I can write at 3am

17:18

, because at 3 , 4am my

17:20

my mind came alive . It

17:23

is not like that anymore . But

17:25

back then my mind came

17:27

alive and I would write . I would almost

17:29

write a chapter of my dissertation in one

17:31

sitting . So I noticed

17:33

something like I was doing the work

17:35

of a professor . I was doing the research

17:38

, I was doing the writing , whether

17:40

or not I thought I wanted to do it . My body

17:42

, everything , my practices said you're

17:44

already there . And people . Then

17:47

I had to listen to what people were saying about me

17:49

. They were like this is what the

17:51

world needs to hear , and I knew

17:53

. After , after the end

17:55

of my first year , I did a program called

17:57

Black Girls Right and

18:00

I I gathered 16 black

18:02

girls from Chicago from

18:04

ages 13 to 17

18:06

. I have been studying at the time

18:08

about black literary societies

18:11

of the 19th century . I'm sure that's

18:13

something that will be interested in you as

18:15

a historian , but

18:17

I was . I was a historical scholar

18:19

. I would study the black excellence

18:21

, the black genius of the past and use

18:23

it as a guide , a roadmap to

18:26

curriculum and instructional decisions

18:29

we make with children today . And

18:31

so I wanted to know what happens if I

18:33

mimic , if I study deeply

18:36

these literary societies , then I mimic

18:38

the practices , I mimic

18:41

sort of the texts

18:43

that they read , and I would

18:45

. I would want to see how black girls

18:47

today respond , and do they

18:49

respond in the same ways that

18:51

black women responded back in the 1800s

18:54

? So that sort of became and

18:57

I would notice something . I would notice

18:59

joy that flowed through my body every time

19:01

I did this work and that's how I

19:03

knew I was where I was supposed to be

19:05

and that eventually I

19:07

would do these institutes every summer

19:10

, which will become my dissertation

19:12

study , where I would formally

19:14

study questions about writing

19:17

representations . You know , in search

19:19

for full vision became

19:21

the name of my dissertation study

19:23

to honor Alice Walker and

19:25

many other black women . And I wanted

19:28

to know how do black girls write

19:30

when created , when

19:32

put in a space that's created

19:34

like these literary societies ? Which

19:37

types of identities do they write through

19:39

? What do they write about , what helps

19:42

them to write ? That became my dissertation

19:44

study . So it was just black girl literacy

19:47

writing study and

19:50

after you know , I

19:52

knew it was special because I was getting awards

19:55

for it . I was getting , I

19:57

felt it was special . That's enough to make something

19:59

special If you feel joy when

20:02

you produce it right . And

20:04

the girls thought it was special and people

20:06

other people thought it was special and they were

20:08

honoring the work right . So it was

20:11

a lot of you know signs

20:14

for me to say that I should

20:16

keep doing it . And that's what I did

20:18

and I . But eventually

20:21

I took the historical part of my work

20:23

and I wanted to expand

20:25

that part more , so I wrote

20:27

all these articles on black girls I published

20:30

. We are not a book field , we are article

20:32

field . And so I had to

20:34

publish articles because I took my first

20:37

position and you need peer reviewed

20:39

articles to get tenure . So I

20:41

focused on not a book but

20:43

on articles so I can solidify my

20:45

position . And then

20:47

I really amplified the historical

20:50

research more and I loved it and

20:52

I thought to myself this is the new , this

20:55

is the next big thing in education . I remember

20:57

telling that to my bestie and

20:59

I remember filling it and so

21:01

people would ask me for a

21:03

book . They're like you need to write a book

21:06

. And the

21:08

field people in education , like teachers

21:10

, administrators they're like we love what

21:12

you're saying . But it was almost like they were

21:15

saying we'll trust you more if you had a book . And

21:17

I say you can trust me without a book . I know what I'm talking

21:19

about . I did the work and they said no

21:21

, you know you should really consider a book , but for years

21:24

I didn't . My body didn't tell me to

21:26

write the book , so I didn't . And then

21:28

book publishers would say we want a book

21:30

because your name is getting well known and

21:32

they're thinking the book would sell because that's

21:34

their lens , and so they

21:36

wanted a book on black girls because

21:38

that's all the work I've been publishing

21:40

. And I would say to some publishers

21:42

no , it's this historical

21:45

work that's really good

21:47

right now . It's going to be special . And

21:50

some people said , no , they don't want it and

21:53

they didn't get it . And

21:56

so when I wrote the book , I wrote

21:58

my first book in . It's

22:01

been building . So when I sat down to

22:03

write , I maybe wrote it in like 16

22:05

days because it was in

22:07

me , I'd been writing about it , talking

22:10

about speaking on it , dissertating

22:12

, as people say . It was in

22:14

me and I drafted

22:16

I mean the , the , the , the

22:18

editing . You know that took much longer , but

22:21

the core skeleton of the book came

22:23

out . It just poured out of me and

22:28

and I loved it

22:30

, I thought it was special and I

22:32

didn't . You know , people always say

22:34

do you think it would have sold that many copies

22:36

? Did you think it would have the impact ? And

22:38

I said it didn't matter . I felt

22:41

like it was something that I feel

22:43

like my creator will be pleased with

22:45

, that my parents will be pleased with , that

22:47

, I'm pleased with . That's enough to

22:49

create something and

22:52

that's how the book really came

22:55

to be . So it's it's

22:57

like telling this bigger story

22:59

of what you've been doing . It's

23:01

all a part of the story , right ?

23:05

I I'm so shocked , first

23:07

of all as someone who really struggles to write , struggles

23:10

to write academically .

23:11

I can write , write those stories , but

23:13

I struggled to write academically .

23:15

So the fact that you were able to

23:17

kind of put pen to paper or

23:19

fingers to keyboard and

23:22

get the first draft of a book out that quickly

23:24

just is really a testament to what you

23:26

said . It was in you like you really

23:28

really knew and lived and breathed

23:31

and really believed that the work needed to

23:33

be shared . So I'm

23:35

so excited to hear that it was a really pleasant

23:37

process for you . Can

23:40

you actually talk a little bit about the

23:42

your experience working with publishers

23:45

? So you kind of alluded to publishers

23:48

wanted something from you , people

23:50

in the education field wanted something from you

23:52

. How did you negotiate these different

23:54

kind of interest groups and audiences

23:57

who wanted something from you

23:59

and potentially , like , wanted different things

24:01

from you , and then how

24:03

did you balance , like being able to write really

24:06

like what you wanted to share , this equity

24:08

model based on the historical research

24:11

and knowledge that you had gathered ? How

24:14

did you kind of navigate those tensions ?

24:18

Well , I start . The more I'm in academia

24:20

, the more I'm

24:22

an academic academia , and

24:26

I say that because I

24:28

struggled . I was writing all these research

24:30

, empirical pieces and

24:32

schools were not changing . My

24:35

colleagues , the ancestors

24:37

, the scholars who I've loved , who

24:39

have come before me , they're writing all these

24:42

pieces , millions of dollars in grants

24:44

that we were getting . I mean , I got grant

24:46

money , nothing's changing

24:49

. So listen

24:51

, I am very practical in

24:54

my life and I had to say , well , so what

24:56

is the point ? So that I can say

24:58

get a stamp of tenure . It

25:00

has to be more than that . Now

25:02

, for some fields that's enough . And

25:05

let me tell you something it

25:08

is very beneficial

25:10

to write up research for

25:12

the sake of scholarship , for the sake . I'm not saying

25:14

that . But when you're in the field of education

25:17

, that alone cannot

25:19

be the goal . We have to see schools

25:21

changing . And for other

25:23

fields , like history and English

25:25

, that's enough . But

25:28

we are talking about children's lives

25:31

, so my field is a

25:33

little different . So when I finally

25:35

decided to write a prospectus and

25:37

a proposal for a book , I

25:40

wrote one for Black Girls , a Black

25:42

Girls book . I wrote one for historically

25:45

responsive literacy in the work with literary

25:47

societies this model I had developed

25:50

and publishing

25:52

companies . I didn't really know what to do so I

25:54

just reached out to them personally . I

25:57

said this is who I am , like my name . I

25:59

introduced myself . This is my proposal

26:01

. If you will , please take a look at it , because we

26:03

don't need an agent , we can just contact

26:06

the editor who's over it . And

26:08

some people were very rude and

26:10

dismissive to me , like even

26:12

in my very kind , loving email

26:14

of introducing myself . They would sort

26:16

of go to if you think that we're , if

26:19

you just wanna get a competing offer

26:21

, we're not here for that . Now I didn't even

26:23

have an offer or a contract . I

26:26

don't even know why that person came

26:28

to that . Now

26:30

, years later , that same person emailed

26:33

me and said hey , do you still wanna

26:35

do a book ? I said how dare

26:37

you ask me ? After being rude and dismissive

26:39

to me , and I

26:41

said and then she apologized

26:44

. But I said you know

26:46

, do you understand what black women

26:48

go through in this world ? All

26:51

I did was say this is my idea . Will

26:53

you read it ? If you did not have the time , you could have

26:55

said I'm sorry , I do not have the time . I gave her

26:57

all kinds of responses . She said to me , but

27:00

I said this is not the time to come back to me , it's

27:02

too late . She asked me for the same

27:04

book . I said you know , Cultivating

27:06

Genius is the book . So

27:08

I had those kinds of moments . And

27:11

then I had people that would just never email me

27:13

back . And so it

27:15

was between two publishers . One

27:17

publisher did not want Cultivating Genius

27:19

. They wanted the Black Girl book . My

27:22

spirit told me it was time to write Cultivating

27:25

Genius . And there

27:27

was one company I wanted to

27:29

not go with . An academic one was an academic

27:31

press , one was a practitioner , what we call

27:34

like professional books

27:36

, press Like a trade , like

27:38

a trade . Yeah , that a teachers would read , right

27:41

. So I the

27:43

one , the academic

27:45

press . They wanted the book I was . My

27:47

spirit didn't tell me to write . So

27:50

the trade

27:52

, the professional books , which became Scholastic

27:55

. Right , they wanted the book Cultivating

27:57

Genius . They said , oh , this is great , and I had a relationship

28:00

with them . So then

28:02

it became a contract

28:04

. Now people don't talk about their contracts Very privately

28:06

. I share my contracts with folks

28:08

, with trusted sisters , because

28:12

this world is like the music industry

28:14

and just like Tupac

28:17

and other people would push out an album like

28:19

I pushed out that book in one sitting

28:21

or whatever , they would write these albums because

28:23

that's what artists do , that's what creative minds

28:25

do , cause I had to accept that

28:28

about myself . We

28:30

are also giving contracts that are very

28:32

detrimental to our futures and

28:36

at the end I had

28:38

. I've seen different contracts that have given

28:40

to me from that point till today . There

28:43

are things in the contract that have said

28:45

, if I die , if I

28:48

choose not to write a different , if

28:51

, like , let's say , they wanted two books

28:53

or two editions , they could find somebody

28:55

, perhaps a white woman , to

28:57

write . I'm just saying that they didn't put a white woman

29:00

in the contract to write the book . But

29:02

I say that because I write about blackness and

29:04

black history and if you can get anybody , it

29:06

could be somebody who doesn't know

29:09

or experience or live blackness

29:11

. There were things in the book I

29:13

mean in contracts that said we own the

29:15

model , the all

29:17

that stuff I researched . There

29:19

are things in the contract that

29:22

might speak to royalties , that

29:25

, like nobody has taught us how

29:27

to in , like R&B in

29:29

the 90s and stuff . You see people trying

29:31

to get back their masters Because

29:34

no one taught any of us . We're

29:37

just so happy that people are accepting

29:39

our creative genius that

29:41

we just won it out in the world and

29:44

people have different motivations . But I had no

29:46

motivations to write a book so

29:50

I did not need a book . If

29:54

the contract was not right , it would not

29:56

have gone out . I will give . If you

29:58

know me , sis , and people who know me

30:00

, I would give something out for free before

30:03

I sell my soul . Let somebody take

30:05

everything I've worked for or

30:08

not get the kind of the respect

30:10

, even financially , that

30:13

I need . So I'm saying all that

30:15

to say because the contractual process

30:18

was a whole different level

30:20

. It was a whole new

30:22

, something of literacy

30:24

, of understanding what to do

30:26

and talking to trusted people

30:28

, brothers and sisters , that said , oh no , you

30:31

can negotiate for this . Or if

30:33

the book sells this many copies , you can ask for

30:35

this royalties and

30:37

you can keep . You can have

30:40

a co-press and have your own

30:42

publishing together

30:45

. I mean there's so many different options that

30:47

people can do . So I'm saying

30:49

that to say I worked through those things

30:51

. I educated myself because

30:53

it wasn't just about writing a book and having

30:56

a book and putting a book out . But

30:58

you have to imagine , if

31:00

that book did

31:03

so well , would

31:07

you still be okay with if that book sold

31:09

50 copies or 50,000

31:11

copies in a year , would you be okay

31:13

with what you signed ? And

31:15

see , that's the thing I

31:18

tried to . I had mentors

31:20

in my life . They got me to see cultivating

31:24

genius , not for what it is right now

31:26

, but what it could be Like . They

31:28

had me imagine in Freedom

31:30

Dream that this is the book that's gonna

31:33

change lives . And I'm like

31:35

we don't know that . I'm thinking that this is

31:37

just my book . I just put it together

31:39

. You know , in your mind for your first

31:41

book you cannot fully see . Some

31:43

of us cannot fully see who we

31:45

can become in the world . We have to

31:47

freedom , dream ourselves like

31:50

we're gonna be Beyonce or something

31:53

, and if you can't do it , you need a

31:55

sister or brother next

31:57

to you who sees who

31:59

you are and who you can become in this world

32:01

, because that's the kind of contract you

32:03

need to sign , that's so

32:05

important , wow , okay , you've

32:07

opened up my eyes too .

32:10

I've been digging deep into academic publishing

32:13

because that's like where I'm the direction I'm

32:15

going in right now , but you've just like opened my eyes

32:17

to so much that we don't know about

32:19

, as you like , professional

32:22

publishing , trade publishing , really

32:24

anything besides an academic press that like

32:26

is not . They have very

32:28

different operating model . I

32:31

would like to know , like , where did you find

32:33

those people who could advise

32:35

you , port into you ? Were they

32:37

fellow , you know , doctoral

32:40

scholars ? Were there people ? Were they people

32:42

who also wrote books ? Were they

32:44

just like your homies who just gave really

32:46

really great advice but had that , you know , didn't

32:48

have experiences authors ? How did you cultivate

32:50

that community of sage

32:54

advisors ?

32:56

Well , you know , I've always

32:58

, you know , since I was a kid when

33:01

I go into a place , I used

33:03

to I used to be a little shy but I would pretty

33:05

much leave with some friends . I

33:08

rode the bus the other day and

33:10

I came back with some friends from the bus

33:12

. So , you

33:14

know , I'd like to

33:16

have authentic relationships with people

33:19

, period , and like get to know people , have them , get

33:21

, let me make it a reciprocal relationship

33:23

. But I would out of

33:25

my relationships . They

33:28

didn't have to be in academia . One

33:30

of my strongest mentors for my book

33:33

contract was a

33:35

vice president of a Fortune 500

33:37

company . See , she knew dollars

33:39

, she knew contracts . If

33:42

I knew somebody that knew legal

33:45

language , I would ask them teach

33:47

me . You know , and

33:51

I would always keep

33:53

my mentors and friendships with

33:55

people where , where I wanted to be

33:57

. So , like when I was a high

33:59

school student , some

34:02

of my friends , my closest friends , were the

34:04

student teachers because I wanted

34:06

to be a teacher when I became a teacher

34:08

. I had friends who were principals and administrators

34:11

. That's what I wanted to be , and when I was a doctoral

34:14

student my friends were assistant professors

34:16

. So I would build relationships

34:18

and get to know people and pray for the relationships

34:20

, because you can't just say be my friend . It has

34:23

to feel authentic and real . So I

34:25

would , I would pray for to bring

34:27

the people in my life who can teach me and

34:29

who would benefit from me too , so it

34:31

doesn't feel like one sided . And

34:34

so a lot of them were people

34:36

in academia , and black women

34:38

particularly . So I

34:41

, who became my best friend , was this woman

34:43

named Dr Yolanda

34:46

Seely Ruiz . She's a professor at Columbia

34:48

Teachers College and

34:51

she was different . She's

34:53

my best friend . She's older than me

34:55

, she's lived in this world longer and

34:58

she just knows humanity , she

35:00

knows people , she knows how to navigate

35:03

academia , all these things

35:05

. I was so blessed I had her . I didn't even

35:07

need anybody to advise me . I mean

35:09

, if anybody knows her , if

35:11

you have her , you don't need anybody else

35:14

. Like my husband thinks that

35:16

is her , is him in the world ? In

35:20

my vows they said you know . The Imam

35:22

said you know , make sure whatever happens in your marriage

35:25

it stays between you and your husband and

35:27

in my mind I said in Yoli

35:29

and this

35:31

is the first time I said that out loud , I

35:33

know I've been thinking that , but you know

35:35

she's so special to my life so

35:38

she helped to mentor me and

35:40

then I was . I saw , when she now

35:42

she's she went up for tenure and full

35:44

professor at all that she wrote

35:46

a poetry book . Now some people

35:49

say you can't write a poetry book if you're gonna

35:51

get , unless you're in the English department

35:53

, if you're going to get full professor

35:56

or tenure or something . She wrote

35:58

a poetry book about love

36:01

, people she's loved in her past . Right

36:03

, and what I

36:05

learned from that . So it's the lessons we

36:08

learned . I'm like , huh , maybe

36:10

I don't have to . People say

36:12

you have to publish . You have to write like this

36:15

and publish with these companies to be solidified

36:17

, to get tenure and I

36:19

tenure was never my

36:21

ultimate goal . My ultimate goal was humanity

36:24

and being myself . I would

36:26

see people lose themselves in academia

36:28

. So for my second

36:30

book I said , well , I want to write

36:33

, I want to have poems , I want to have music

36:35

. I want it . I want it to be a multimodal experience

36:37

. I want a QR code that links to songs

36:39

. I wanted to have artwork

36:42

, children's work . I wanted

36:44

to have music lyrics printed

36:46

. I wanted it to feel

36:48

different . That is not how academics

36:50

write . I wanted it to be an academic

36:52

blend of

36:55

a memoir plus academic

36:58

writing , plus laughter and

37:00

jokes in the book . So

37:02

why am I saying all this ? You use

37:05

the mentorships , you study people

37:07

and models and you determine

37:09

who you are . To say what

37:11

gives you peace , what do you want

37:13

to put out in the world that speaks to who you

37:15

are at the end of the day , and

37:18

what ? How can we redefine how

37:20

to get tenure ? Because it cannot just be

37:22

all these traditional ways that were set

37:24

by old white men . Right

37:26

of how they define the academics

37:29

, right . And what's going to give you

37:31

peace and joy

37:34

? That's something we just don't talk

37:36

about . Like writing these books , giving me

37:38

joy , because I didn't do it for my department

37:40

or to get tenure . I did it for myself

37:43

. I didn't do it for capitalism or

37:45

how much money I would make . I did it for myself

37:47

. I did it to help people . So

37:49

when your intentions are pure , the

37:51

right people will come into your life and teach

37:53

you , and that's what happened to me , I believe

37:55

.

37:57

I am getting mentorship

37:59

right now as I am on

38:01

my own journey and starting to write

38:03

and thinking about publishing , so that was

38:06

incredibly insightful

38:08

and uplifting . I

38:11

want to just ask one more question about the

38:13

new book and then we will start to

38:15

wrap up . Can you give us

38:17

a quick summary of how

38:20

Unearthing Joy expands on

38:22

cultivating genius ? You talked about

38:24

the multimodal experience , but

38:26

for folks who are perhaps not familiar with

38:28

your work or maybe not in the education space

38:30

and haven't heard about it , can you

38:32

just let us know how that you

38:34

are related to one another ?

38:37

So this is Unearthing Joy and

38:39

you know I really wanted to feel joyful

38:42

in the cover and flowers and any

38:44

blooming , all the things . So

38:47

in cultivating genius I start

38:49

off with this history I talked about and at

38:51

the model that I write about has four

38:53

different elements teaching

38:55

and learning , identity development , skill

38:57

development , intellectualism and criticality

39:00

, which is social justice . And

39:03

I said I went

39:05

back to the literature

39:07

and I said what about joy

39:10

? Every we need a joy was a

39:12

COVID shutdown

39:14

, everything , all these things were happening . So

39:16

I went back to the archives , archival

39:18

literature and the archives and the

39:20

historical documents , and

39:22

I said you know this , it needs like another

39:24

element . And so that became joy

39:27

. And then , with a new element

39:29

, came a new book . So I

39:31

knew the next book was gonna be about joy and

39:34

again , when my body and mind told me to write

39:36

, I started writing it . So

39:38

this is now the follow up to

39:40

cultivating genius , the how to guide . How

39:43

do you take the teachings

39:45

from cultivating genius , with this added pursuit

39:47

of joy , and teach

39:49

for these five things in

39:51

the classroom ? So it's very

39:53

practical , it's very step by step

39:56

in many ways . It gives templates

39:58

, examples , lesson plan , pedagogy

40:00

, curriculum , instruction for

40:02

parents , for teachers

40:05

, for administrators , how to lead staff

40:07

meetings , for these five goals . These

40:09

five goals are the essence of

40:12

this book and , like I said

40:14

, I wanted to feel , like I wanted teachers

40:16

to see themselves as artists , as people

40:18

who create and

40:20

who create pedagogy to teach

40:22

to children that leaves a legacy

40:24

at imprint of mark . I'm not for

40:27

scripted lessons , I'm not for somebody

40:29

gave me this lesson , let me teach it . I'm for

40:31

creating something beautiful to teach

40:33

to our babies Black

40:35

children , yes , but all children as well

40:38

, and so that's what this

40:40

is a guide to . And so , because

40:42

I talk about joy and the spirit

40:44

of artistry , that's why

40:46

I brought in poetry and

40:48

music and art and

40:51

primary source documents and

40:53

all the joyful artistic

40:56

things and somewhere

40:59

between cultivating genius and unerthing joy

41:01

, I got to work with Pharrell Williams . He

41:03

opened this beautiful school , yellowhab

41:06

, in his hometown of Virginia Beach , and

41:09

got a hold of my book and model and asked

41:11

to meet me and we began to

41:13

work together with the school . I

41:15

sit on their advisory board . It's a beautiful

41:18

school . He has a beautiful

41:20

mind and he , in

41:23

many ways , the way he creates

41:25

music , is how I , what I feel

41:27

when I create curriculum . His

41:29

look , how he closes his eyes

41:31

, how he feels . That's how I feel when I

41:33

create lesson plans and

41:35

I said I shared this with him

41:37

and I

41:40

asked him to write the foreword for the book because

41:42

how beautiful it will be . Originally it was

41:44

a child I thought maybe

41:46

a child or an artist and

41:49

I said I asked him , I thought it was a

41:51

long shot because he's so incredibly busy

41:53

and in a day

41:55

he came back and said that

41:57

he would love and be honored to write

41:59

it . So it became

42:01

like a really great piece and

42:03

his the way he talks about beauty

42:05

in the world and humanity is

42:08

zest atone for the entire book

42:10

. Yeah , and it's all grounded

42:12

with my favorite artist , who

42:15

is Stevie Wonder . So Stevie

42:17

Wonder opens my writing

42:19

. At the introduction and

42:22

my closing of it

42:24

. I use his lyrics to ground what

42:26

kind of educators we should be in the world

42:28

.

42:29

Yes , for anyone who's listening

42:31

, who is an educator or who wants to just

42:33

learn , who's curious , we will definitely

42:35

be linking how you can get a hold

42:37

of this book in the show notes . So

42:40

two last questions before we close out

42:42

. What is one thing that you would do differently

42:44

if you had to do your doctoral journey

42:46

all over again ?

42:49

Wow , I

42:52

would probably start reading

42:54

some of the articles more

42:57

articles I was reading like professional

42:59

books and articles , but they

43:01

were more on the practitioner levels . I would

43:03

probably read more research articles

43:06

prior to , because

43:08

in many ways I struggled

43:10

a bit my first year . I'm like what ?

43:12

are they talking about in these articles ?

43:14

They're so dense and boring . I had to read one

43:16

article like 25 times . So

43:19

I would have like started to get

43:21

more into that research world , like an introduction

43:24

, maybe going to workshops . But see what's

43:26

happening now is the students are doing

43:28

that now . Say , before we didn't have Zoom

43:30

workshops and doing all that , we

43:32

didn't know to do it and we didn't have

43:34

mentors to tell us . Now we're

43:37

seeing that more often . So that's what I would

43:39

have hoped .

43:39

Thanks , and then final question what

43:41

is one last piece of advice that

43:43

you have for prospective

43:46

or current black women and non-binary

43:48

doctoral students ?

43:51

Well , I would just say don't compare

43:53

yourself to other people . You

43:55

know , sometimes we're like , oh , I didn't , I

43:59

should be finished by now . According to who

44:01

? If it's according to you , that's fine , but if it's

44:03

according to what other people are doing in your cohort

44:05

or in your program , you

44:08

know , really try to understand

44:11

who you are really and what you want

44:13

to put in this world . If

44:16

you had all the funding , all the mentorship

44:18

and support , what do you want to do ? Because

44:21

you don't know how many times people tell me

44:23

do not study black girls , do not study

44:25

black girls . It was when black women that told

44:27

me that . And black men , why are you studying

44:29

black girls ? They would say . So

44:33

have some like entitlement

44:36

about who you are and what

44:38

you want to study and put out this

44:40

world and don't let people break

44:42

you . And finally , I

44:44

would advise to don't make any

44:46

of the decisions by yourself . You

44:50

know every

44:52

decision , small or large . Talk

44:54

to a mentor , talk to a trusted friend

44:57

or somebody who

44:59

has been through it , cause

45:01

I some of my students who have graduated

45:03

, they're in their jobs

45:05

and they're like I can't believe that happened to me . I said

45:08

why didn't you come to me before ? I would have

45:10

told you not to do that or to

45:12

do it this way . Every

45:14

decision , small or large , give some

45:17

advisement and

45:20

, you know , navigate

45:22

that way , especially if you are

45:24

in a job where

45:26

there are no other queer people , lgbtq

45:29

, there are no other people of color , there are

45:31

no other but you , and

45:33

they might be nice and they might

45:36

, yeah , we love you and so happy you're

45:38

here , but when it comes down to

45:40

it , when they get to advocate

45:42

for you and stand up for you , they might

45:44

be silent . So everything

45:47

you do , you know , move with

45:49

caution , especially in those spaces

45:51

. Get advisement . If I

45:53

was late to a meeting , I would call my

45:56

bestie . I say should I still

45:58

go in ? It's only five minutes left . I

46:01

had the wrong date and time . Girl , I

46:03

every decision I would ask her

46:05

and if

46:07

she cause she knew she knew what to

46:09

do , do you walk in five minutes

46:11

and sit down or do you just skip it ? Do

46:13

they see your face or not ? Even as little as

46:15

something like that , I would ask . So

46:18

yeah , that would be some of my advice .

46:20

That is really really good advice

46:22

. You've shared such amazing insights

46:24

into your professional journey

46:26

. I love the way that you talked about writing

46:29

as a creation

46:31

, like a creative endeavor . I haven't really

46:33

heard anyone who is a professor

46:35

talk about writing in this way , so

46:37

that's really moving for me . I love

46:39

how you approach your work and how you're

46:42

really redefining what it means to be an academic

46:44

, what it means to be a scholar , not

46:46

just for the people in

46:48

your field and your discipline , but for everyone

46:51

, for folks like me who are not in your discipline

46:53

but are still trying to do things

46:55

in our own special way . So thank you for being an inspiration

46:57

and thank you so much for joining us today on

47:00

the Co-Horror Sisters podcast .

47:02

Thank you so much . We'll all be where we're

47:04

supposed to be , and I'm so glad I was with you

47:07

today . Okay

47:10

so .

47:20

Thank you again for listening to this week's episode

47:23

of the Co-Horror Sisters podcast . If

47:25

you are a black woman interested in joining

47:27

the Co-Horror Sisters membership community

47:29

or you're looking for more information

47:31

on how to support or partner with Co-Horror

47:33

Sisters , please visit our website at

47:36

wwwcohorsisterscom

47:38

. You can also find us on all social

47:40

media platforms at cohort sisters . Don't

47:43

forget to subscribe to the Co-Horror Sisters podcast

47:46

and leave us a quick review wherever you're

47:48

listening . Thank you so much for

47:50

joining us this week and we'll catch you in next

47:52

week's episode . Hmmm

47:57

,