0:14

Welcome to the Cohort SysSys podcast

0:16

, where we give voice to the stories , struggles

0:18

and successes of Black women and

0:21

non-binary folks with doctoral degrees

0:23

. I'm your host , dr Yama Cola

0:25

, and today I'm really honored to have

0:27

a conversation with Dr Michelle

0:29

Gibbs , an expert in the fields

0:31

of theater , academia and

0:33

solo performance , dr Gibbs brings

0:35

a blend of scholarship and creativity

0:38

to the podcast today . Dr

0:40

Michelle Gibbs received a PhD in theater

0:42

, with a graduate certificate in performance

0:44

studies from Bowling Green State University

0:47

, and her research spans Black performativity

0:50

and critical identity studies

0:52

, delving into the intersections of

0:54

race , gender and performance . Her

0:56

insightful exploration of Zora Neale-Hurston's

0:59

theater work has reshaped our understanding

1:01

of Southern Black community's resilience

1:04

. Dr Gibbs fearlessly navigates

1:06

challenging themes as a solo performer

1:08

, using her body as a canvas for

1:11

thought provoking narratives . Thank

1:13

you so much for joining us on the podcast , dr Gibbs

1:15

, and thank you for your grace . We had some

1:17

technical difficulties I'm holding

1:19

a baby Like it was a struggle to get this started

1:21

, but we're started , so thank you

1:23

so much for being here .

1:25

Yes , thank you so much for having me . I'm very , very

1:27

grateful and so excited to chat All

1:30

right , so tell us a little bit about

1:32

yourself .

1:32

Where are you from ? I currently live in . Where are some

1:34

of the things that you like to do when you're not performing

1:37

or doing research ?

1:39

Great question . So I am

1:41

originally from Detroit , michigan . I've

1:44

been a lot of places since I've been to Detroit

1:46

. I lived in California for

1:48

a little bit . That's where I got my master's degree

1:51

at the MFA in acting from University of California

1:53

, irvine . So I lived there for a little bit

1:55

. I lived near Western Michigan for

1:57

a little bit . I lived in New Orleans

2:00

for a little bit . When

2:04

you're a scholar you kind of go where the job takes you

2:06

. But most recently I

2:09

came from Minnesota , where

2:11

that was my last teaching position , and

2:14

now I live in Central Illinois , which

2:16

is about two and a half hours

2:18

south , about two hours south

2:20

of Chicago , and

2:25

I teach theater at Illinois Wesleyan University

2:27

Nice .

2:29

And before we got caught off , you were telling me all

2:31

about your gaming life . To

2:35

be honest , I don't envision you as

2:37

a gamer , so you are definitely

2:39

shifting my stereotypes and

2:41

my narrative of what a gamer looks

2:43

like . So what are some of your favorite games

2:45

and how does I'm curious does gaming

2:47

have anything to do with your love for theater ? Are

2:49

they completely separate , or are they

2:51

?

2:52

related they are , I

2:56

don't know . I probably am a very theatrical person

2:58

and I find video games to be very theatrical

3:00

in the style of storytelling and the

3:03

ability to bring folks in through story

3:05

. So it probably has a little bit

3:07

of element . But my whole

3:10

thing is like to escape . You

3:12

know , I like Marvel movies because I get the opportunity

3:14

to escape into another world where

3:16

I don't have to think , be constantly thinking

3:19

about and like figuring

3:21

out , like self and

3:23

teaching and things like that . So

3:26

yeah , I like to . I like to game as a way

3:28

to sort of escape into

3:31

someone else's story , where it

3:33

takes a little bit of the pressure off of me to

3:35

be who I am . But

3:38

I'm playing right now . I play a lot of different games

3:40

, but right now I'm playing Tears of the Kingdom

3:43

Legend of Zelda , tears

3:45

of the Kingdom , which is a fabulous game

3:47

. I'm sure everybody knows

3:49

about it because it's been like on YouTube

3:52

and everything . But I'm playing that right now

3:55

and that's a lot of fun .

3:57

Yeah , I was . I'm one of those people who , like

3:59

, never got the video

4:01

game wave . My parents immigrant

4:03

parents were just like you're wasting your time

4:06

, you're not like that's just not . It was not a function of

4:08

my childhood and I feel like I just missed

4:10

the wave , like if there's no fiber

4:12

of my being that is interested in picking up a console

4:15

. Like I feel like I don't have the anti-coordination , but

4:17

I admire people who make that a part of their life

4:19

and , like you said , as a way to escape

4:21

. I've never heard anyone frame it like

4:24

that , but it sounds like it's a really great

4:26

hobby and element of your

4:28

well-being and self-care , so I love that for

4:30

you . So

4:33

let's talk about your love

4:36

for the theatrics . When did you first become

4:38

interested in performance in

4:40

theater , in otherworldly

4:43

things , the extraordinary play

4:45

? Tell us a little bit about the roots of that for you .

4:48

Yeah . So actually I

4:50

didn't get started into theater until like

4:53

late . You know , a lot

4:55

of the people that I interact with started

4:57

doing theater when they were like three and four . I

5:00

just didn't have that luxury or

5:04

no , or that desire . To be honest , I

5:06

think I did a play in high school because I was trying

5:08

to get close to a dude and

5:10

he liked theater . So

5:13

I joined , like , the theater club because I just wanted

5:15

to be close to him but had no real

5:17

interest in it . So I

5:20

was actually interested in aviation

5:22

science and I wanted

5:24

to become an air traffic controller

5:26

in the Air Force . So

5:29

my recruiter said the best way to get

5:31

to that is to go to

5:33

college , get a degree , then enlist

5:36

and then you get more money

5:38

, you get a better rank , etc

5:40

. So I said , oh , I'll go to Western

5:42

Michigan University because they had one of the

5:44

top aviation programs in the state . So

5:47

I started there . My

5:50

advisor was

5:52

like take this theater class . I

5:54

have a lot of recruits that come through

5:56

and they take this theater class . It's

5:58

a really easy A and you

6:00

know you get to . You know sort of move on from there

6:02

because you need it as a Gen Ed . And

6:04

I'm like , okay , sure , I'll take the theater class

6:07

, whatever . I

6:09

started in the theater class and my advisor

6:12

was wrong . It was not an easy A , it

6:14

was so hard , it was hard as heck . But

6:17

I fell in love with this medium

6:20

of expression and

6:22

I never really thought that that's what

6:24

my life needed , was that kind

6:26

of like . I was talking about video

6:28

gaming as that escape . But I never thought

6:31

that my life needed that kind of interest

6:33

in that kind of expression before . And

6:36

I was really intrigued by the readings by

6:39

the professor , who was a very animated person

6:41

, probably

6:44

kind of got me started in the ways I teach now and

6:46

my pedagogy , but

6:48

just was a really , you know , fantastic

6:50

teacher . And it was one of those

6:52

classes that they kind of like kind

6:54

of farmed you into it and made you work

6:56

on their shows . So

6:59

I was like I'm really interested . So a props

7:01

position came up where in the props

7:03

you basically build , you know , set

7:05

pieces and you build utilities

7:08

that the actors will use in the performance

7:11

. And I got to run props

7:13

for a show called Flyin'

7:15

West by Pearl Cleige and

7:17

it's a play about these beautiful black women

7:20

who are , you know , landowners

7:22

and are really , really attempting

7:24

to carve out a path for themselves . And

7:27

I was offstage and they put me in a costume

7:29

because I kind of had to look like I was being

7:31

the part as I was carrying props on stage

7:33

, and I just fell in

7:35

love . I was like this is it

7:37

. I figured it out

7:39

. So I started at the back

7:42

of the class , in this huge auditorium with almost

7:44

60 to 80 people in

7:46

the classroom , to the very front row

7:48

, and just my love of theater

7:50

just sprung from that

7:52

sense of the curiosity , the expression

7:55

, the

7:59

ability to engage with humaneness in that

8:02

way . So I changed my major

8:04

. My mom cried . My mom was

8:06

like you're going to be broke for the rest of your life and

8:09

you know , needless to say , she's not crying now . I

8:11

can't say I'm the richest person in the world , but you

8:13

know she's not crying anymore

8:16

. But she bawled at IHOP

8:18

of all places because I thought I'd tell her

8:20

in a public spot I'm changing my major

8:23

. And she

8:25

was like woo

8:27

, I never seen my mother weep before , but

8:29

she weeped in IHOP y'all

8:31

. But

8:33

yeah , so I changed my major . I

8:35

became a BA in theater

8:38

performance . It's now a BFA program

8:40

now , but I was a BA in theater performance

8:42

and I spent

8:44

, because I was only there in my program

8:47

before for about half a

8:49

semester , about a semester , and

8:51

so I ended up having to stay an extra semester

8:53

. So it was there four and a half semesters

8:55

, four and a half years , and

8:58

just loved every , every bit of it

9:00

, just every bit of it .

9:03

I'm curious what do you think ? To

9:05

what extent was the actual play

9:08

that you were studying and working on , the

9:10

first performance , being

9:12

a story about black women

9:15

? Did that have anything to do with your

9:18

falling in love with the field

9:20

, with the art ? Do you think

9:22

that you would have maybe had that same trajectory

9:24

if you were working on some I

9:26

don't know , the great Gatsby or something else

9:28

that doesn't kind of center our stories ?

9:31

Yeah , I don't think so . I don't

9:33

think I would have had the same kind

9:35

of urge . The professor

9:37

was really clever in that

9:39

. I don't know if it was clever , but he was just really intrigued

9:42

. He was an older white man but

9:44

he was really intrigued by like black theater and

9:46

he talked about the Lion King and I had never

9:48

I mean I saw the movie , but he

9:50

talked about the Lion King on Broadway and

9:53

a few other shows . He included in that

9:55

Raisin' in the Sun , a

9:58

few others , and I

10:00

think working on Flying West was an

10:03

eye-opening experience . I had kind of discovered

10:05

my queerness as well in that

10:08

process . But

10:10

I think there was something about watching these

10:12

I mean , they were really talented black

10:15

women who were freely

10:17

emoting in these very

10:20

vulnerable spaces that

10:22

I thought to myself I think

10:24

I can do that , I think I can

10:26

give of myself and

10:28

I think that there's a way that I can have permission

10:31

to be vulnerable in

10:33

these very public spaces , because

10:35

the way I grew up , we don't

10:38

really cry in public , we

10:40

really don't . We kind

10:43

of hold ourselves with the decorum as

10:46

black people because we recognize that white people are

10:48

always watching us and so there's

10:50

a kind of a cultural understanding about how performance

10:52

and performativity occupy spaces

10:55

of identity in at least in

10:57

my culture , in my black culture

11:00

. So when I

11:02

found out that there was this

11:04

theater , this expression , this

11:06

form of expression , and that black people

11:08

were doing it , I was like oh

11:10

wow , maybe that's permission for me

11:12

to engage in

11:14

that kind of way , and I always thought

11:17

I was going to find my Flying

11:19

West moment . So I thought

11:21

I was going to be some ways in

11:24

that same particular space again

11:26

and , like a drug , it was so

11:28

intriguing to me that I had

11:30

always sought out

11:32

that kind of opportunity to be in

11:35

space with black women and

11:37

those kind of theatrical standpoints

11:39

. And I don't know if I've

11:41

ever actually since watching

11:44

Flying West , if I've actually been in

11:46

that kind of

11:48

cohort of expression

11:50

in that way of theatrical performance

11:53

, in that way . But it doesn't stop my yearning

11:55

for that and my ability to

11:57

work with other black women in

12:00

spaces that I also want to create

12:02

that same kind of energy from

12:04

. But I don't know if I ever like

12:06

, if it was something like the Great Gatsby or , you

12:08

know , like Julius Caesar , of

12:11

which I actually really love Julius Caesar , shakespeare's

12:13

Julius Caesar I don't know if I would have

12:15

had the same kind of compellingness

12:17

to it . Yeah , I think there

12:19

was a lot of things going on in my identity at

12:21

that time and recognizing my sexuality

12:24

at that time that

12:26

really caught me .

12:27

Yeah , and this , my friends , is

12:29

why it is important to have diverse curricula

12:32

at the undergraduate level . This

12:34

is not a testament why I don't know what is so

12:38

you fell in love with theater in this

12:40

class that you were told to take because it was an easy

12:42

A on your way to aviation school

12:45

. Why go on

12:47

and continue to study it ? I think

12:49

you know theater is one of those fields where

12:51

most people who become interested

12:53

in it do theater , they perform

12:56

, they become artists

12:58

. Why decide to continue

13:00

on the scholarly pursuits and the scholarly

13:03

investigation of theater ?

13:05

That's a really great question . So

13:08

I thought

13:10

of myself as an actor

13:13

and as an actress and that

13:15

I was going to pursue theater

13:17

from that standpoint . But

13:21

it wasn't until probably

13:23

my because my program was really about

13:25

, like my mentor and my professor was really

13:27

about funneling us into graduate programs

13:29

. So you know , her goal was to see us in

13:32

MFA programs because we were getting BA

13:34

, Bachelor of Arts degrees , so

13:36

she really wanted to see us get terminal degrees . So

13:39

it probably wasn't until like

13:41

once I was done with my four and a half

13:43

years at Western Michigan that

13:46

I realized that all of my pursuits

13:48

had been in the study of theater

13:51

, that I was so intrigued by

13:53

every aspect of it . I mean , I took

13:55

every theater class that I could take . I

13:57

took scenic design , I took lighting design

13:59

, I took . My advisor

14:01

was like wow , you have a lot of electives and

14:04

I'm like , yeah , and I'm going to keep going too . You

14:07

know , just because I was so intrigued by it . But

14:09

it wasn't until I was done with my program that I was like

14:11

, you know , I want to be an actor but

14:13

really I really want to keep theater

14:15

at the center of my life . Like

14:17

how do I keep it , you know , if I don't

14:20

decide to be an actor , how do I still

14:22

keep it as part of it , and I think that's

14:24

where the theater studies started to kind

14:26

of come through . So I made sure to pick a

14:28

graduate program in my MFA that

14:31

I thought was going to kind

14:33

of give me both of that sense so

14:35

that I could study acting and kind of have a

14:37

very focused understanding of acting , but

14:39

it also allowed me to teach as well

14:41

. So my last two years of my graduate program

14:44

I got a chance to teach and

14:46

really thinking about like pedagogy and

14:48

forming that and how that also impacted

14:50

my desire to just study theater

14:52

was also really important

14:54

. I made sure that I got to be a

14:57

TA for the theater history classes

14:59

for the undergraduate students so that also

15:01

kept me in conversation with other

15:03

ways of practicing and studying

15:05

theater and so that

15:07

that became kind of the goal

15:10

of it . But I took a little bit of time

15:12

between my MFA and my PhD

15:14

. I took about six years off because

15:16

I didn't know , like my friends had all been telling

15:18

me , you know , in grad school , are you going to go get a PhD ? You're

15:22

such a egghead and I was

15:24

like no , no , that's really not for me

15:26

. I'm not really because

15:28

I was really scared of it , you know , because a PhD

15:31

means a lot and going into

15:33

that kind of like . My graduate program was already

15:35

, you know , pretty rough in terms

15:37

of like thinking about racism and

15:41

and and it . You know it was

15:43

already really rough . It was

15:45

really an old white man's club and I thought it's probably

15:47

not going to get any easier in a PhD program

15:49

. So I'm going to take a little bit of time . And then I

15:52

started to enjoy film and I

15:54

started to produce film and

15:56

that way , when I and I moved to New York and I started

15:58

producing film and that kind of

16:00

occupied a lot of my time . But

16:03

so , yeah , there was a little bit of space of time

16:05

before I decided to go get the PhD

16:07

, of which I realized by that

16:09

point in my life I

16:12

had already had my daughter that

16:15

really I did want to teach theater

16:17

and that , for whatever

16:19

that was going to look like , that

16:21

I wanted to be able to teach theater

16:24

. And so I

16:26

pursued the PhD with always the thought

16:28

in mind of keeping theater at

16:30

the center of it but also marrying that

16:32

with teaching and learning . And how

16:34

was that going to expand . I had no idea

16:37

what my research interest was going to be when

16:39

I started my PhD program . It

16:41

wasn't until once I was in it that that came

16:43

about . But knowing that

16:45

, like the core of me , wanted to

16:47

teach and learn and then also keep

16:50

theater at the center was really , was

16:52

really profound for me .

16:54

Yeah , I love that . So

16:56

why did you ? What

16:59

were some of the considerations that you were thinking through

17:01

as you decided to go to Bowling

17:03

Green State and ultimately

17:06

did you ? After the fact , did

17:08

you feel like that was the right decision for you ?

17:12

Yeah , yeah , it was , it really was

17:14

. I thought I was going

17:16

to in order to get a PhD . I thought I was going to

17:18

have to go back and get an MA , because

17:20

a lot of PhDs have a

17:22

master of arts in theater studies

17:24

and theater history before

17:26

they moved to the PhD program . And

17:29

my advisor , or my mentor

17:31

from Western

17:33

Michigan , had done a lot of

17:35

work with a professor who taught at

17:37

Bowling Green and she was telling

17:39

me you know , I think they're

17:41

going to really appreciate your practical

17:43

understanding of theater and

17:46

that that's a strength of yours . And

17:48

this program really does marry

17:51

the study of theater , the

17:53

history of theater , but also thinking about

17:55

the practice of it and how do you articulate

17:58

that practice through these lenses

18:00

of historiography , of history and

18:02

of the study of it . And she really

18:04

encouraged me to apply and I'm

18:06

glad I did . It was the right program

18:09

for me . It was actually the best program

18:11

for me because coming in

18:13

I did not have a strong background

18:15

and criticism in that way and

18:18

my professors were really generous

18:20

in working with me . But

18:22

I had a really strong practice skill set

18:24

in that I was an actor and

18:26

I was a director and

18:28

I had worked in film and there were a lot of things

18:30

that I could bring to the classroom that

18:34

could really help students nuance what they

18:36

were learning in the study of it , and

18:39

so it was definitely the right program

18:41

for me , because Bowling Green does

18:43

a really good job of marrying that

18:46

skill set , and so , just like our comprehensive

18:48

exams are not just we sit

18:50

down and we take an exam

18:53

, it's that we actually have to prepare

18:55

a portfolio of like four

18:57

or five articles , papers

19:00

that can become articles , and then you

19:02

also defend that . You defend

19:04

that portfolio of papers

19:07

, and that was perfect for me

19:09

, because I did want that sense of like

19:11

what's the utility of this degree ? What

19:15

is it going to really teach me to do when

19:17

I'm in the field , when I'm actually a professor

19:19

or for whatever ? Because a lot of people

19:21

get PhDs and they don't necessarily go to the classroom

19:24

. They go in a lot of different fields

19:26

and they you know . So , yeah

19:28

, so Bowling Green was really perfect

19:30

for that that it wasn't this traditional

19:32

, you know , sort of PhD

19:35

mill that was churning out scholars

19:38

, but that it was churning out scholars that were also

19:40

really deeply interested in the practice

19:42

of it and how the application

19:45

of theater nuances

19:47

the study of it , and so it was a . It

19:49

was a really right choice .

19:51

Yeah , this sounds kind

19:53

of like you know . I'm trying to draw

19:55

an analogy between , like

19:58

professional PhDs , like DRPH

20:01

is a doctor of public health versus a PhD

20:03

in public health , or a a society

20:06

versus a PhD in psychology

20:08

and those kinds of doctoral programs

20:10

. There is very much a consideration

20:13

of the practice of the field

20:15

and I had it . I

20:17

didn't realize that there were theater PhD programs

20:20

that were framed in that way and it sounds

20:22

as if this program was exactly

20:24

that . So that's really cool . Before

20:27

we started recording , you were telling me a story about

20:29

your daughter . And so I would love for you to speak

20:31

a little bit too . You know , since I now know

20:33

that you started your doctoral program

20:35

with a young child in tow and you also

20:38

, at the start of the episode , mentioned kind of moving

20:40

around to a couple of different places , can

20:42

you talk a little bit about , you know , your

20:44

thought process of starting a PhD

20:47

with a toddler and

20:50

whether , yeah , what

20:52

was going on in your mind in terms of location

20:55

, in terms of support systems , in

20:57

terms of just work , life balance ?

21:00

Yeah , yeah , absolutely . So

21:03

. It was me and my little mama . That's that's

21:05

what I call Eve . She's my little mama for

21:08

a variety of reasons . So

21:11

you know I was I wasn't divorced

21:14

just quite yet . I was separated when

21:16

I decided to go and get the PhD

21:18

at Bowling Green State and

21:20

I also thought you know , bowling Green

21:22

is about an hour and a half from Detroit where my

21:24

brother lives with his family so I thought

21:27

I got family . That's also a great

21:29

program too , because I also have family that's close

21:31

by and my mom with the time was in Texas

21:33

. So I

21:36

was separated and

21:38

I didn't quite have a divorce

21:40

yet because I didn't know if that was going to be

21:42

in the cards . But when

21:44

we moved to Bowling Green , it was just me and Eve

21:46

. It was me and my little mama . And

21:49

when I finally did decide that a divorce

21:51

was going to be the best , like permanent separation

21:53

was going to be the best , I remember

21:55

like having this like dreaded

21:58

feeling of no , we really are

22:00

alone , like we don't have any

22:03

support . It's just me and her , and

22:05

while my brother is an hour and a half away

22:07

in this space , it's me and her and

22:11

she relies on me and

22:14

she needs me to be the

22:16

kind of mother that prioritizes

22:19

her , and that was a challenge

22:21

in a PhD program which really

22:23

is set up to prioritize the work .

22:26

Right .

22:27

And so trying to find

22:29

the balance in that was really

22:32

was really tough , but

22:35

we figured it out . There

22:39

was a lot of struggle but

22:43

there was also a lot of fun in that too , of

22:45

going , of having . So I have two stories

22:47

for you actually . So the first story

22:50

is that my program was incredibly

22:52

supportive of me having a child . I

22:55

mean really supportive , like I could bring Eve

22:57

to class if I absolutely needed to

22:59

. There was

23:01

professors like Goddard that I was

23:03

a parent and that that

23:05

was really important to me . But

23:08

there was this one time where

23:10

it was just a rush . Evie's

23:12

daycare was closed for

23:15

the day and she was about two and a half , she

23:17

was about three , two and a half three years old and

23:21

she I stopped at McDonald's

23:23

, picked up McDonald's . She

23:25

likes the big breakfast with the hotcakes , so

23:28

I got that some syrup . I brought it there . My

23:30

idea was that Evie was going to stay in the

23:32

kitchenette because we have a kitchen area at my , at

23:35

my former institution . We have a kitchen

23:37

area . So she's going to stay in the kitchen area , eat

23:39

her breakfast and then I'm going to check on her when we

23:42

have a break and make sure she's okay . But

23:44

she's going to hang out here . She's got like

23:46

a little device , I think , at the Kindle at the time

23:48

. So I say , wait here

23:50

, I'll be right back , I'm just going to put my stuff

23:53

down . I come back

23:55

and Evie is covered in

23:57

syrup . She had opened up

23:59

the syrup on her own because she

24:02

thinks she know everything , which is why she's a little mama

24:04

. She pours the syrup

24:06

and gets it all over herself and I'm

24:08

just and she's standing in the kitchen crying , oh

24:11

. And my one of my professors

24:13

walked by and saw us and she

24:15

looks at me and she says go to class , I

24:18

got this . And

24:20

I was like are you sure ? She was

24:22

like I got this , I'm a mom , I get

24:24

it . You go to class . Me

24:26

and her are going to hang out here . And

24:29

she cleaned Evie up . I came back out for my

24:31

break and her and Evie were sitting there laughing

24:34

and chatting and talking . She had cleaned up

24:36

Evie and that's one of the examples

24:38

of like support there that

24:40

you know they . They had my back

24:42

in a lot of ways . And

24:45

then I got boy

24:47

, I had another story and I just I just lost

24:50

it , but , but

24:52

, but , but , yeah . So that's an example of just

24:54

like that sense of support and

24:56

feeling like , you know , we were on our own

24:59

, but really , in reality , we did have

25:01

. We did have some support and , yeah , I wasn't

25:03

able to go to all the parties that I wanted to

25:05

go to , but it

25:07

was cool , you know , like it

25:10

was me and little mama . Oh , I got this story . Okay

25:12

, so this is

25:14

my story and I'm we're going to keep going . I'm

25:16

tell all these stories . I

25:21

was working on the . I did an ethnography

25:23

. My dissertation was an ethnographic

25:26

dissertation that

25:28

married theater , ethnography and

25:30

and performativity

25:32

. So I had to go into

25:34

the field a lot in order to do it and

25:37

if I went to the field , evie was with me . So

25:39

she was little mama was with me . One night

25:41

I'm working on , you

25:43

know , collect , like going through interviews

25:46

, and it's it's late , and Evie's

25:48

like mama , it's time

25:50

to go to bed . And I'm like okay

25:53

, evie , I'm going to be there in just a minute , just , I'm going

25:55

to be there in just a minute . She's like no , mama

25:57

is time for bed . I

26:00

was like I said I will come to

26:02

you in a moment . She says , mommy , my

26:05

, your bed two minutes right

26:08

now . And she goes up

26:10

the stairs and stumps up the stairs and

26:12

I'm like okay , time

26:15

to work away and go get in the bed

26:17

because Evie's like I , really I'm ready

26:19

for my cuddle .

26:24

Wow , not her giving you a bedtime

26:26

, but I mean . I love that accountability because it's

26:28

so often that we

26:30

like want to keep on grinding and

26:32

it's not good for our health , it's not good

26:34

for our wellbeing and it definitely especially

26:37

if you're caring for other people . You

26:39

can't care for others effectively if you're sleep

26:41

deprived . So she was like no ma'am you

26:43

need to go to sleep , I love

26:46

it .

26:46

Yeah , I love it .

26:50

So what

26:52

were some of the other high point

26:54

successes and some of the challenges

26:56

that you experienced during your doctoral journey

26:58

?

27:00

Um , let's see some high points

27:02

was is that even in my

27:05

you know , my , my

27:08

well , two things . So even in my

27:11

sort of lack of understanding always

27:13

of understanding of the criticism

27:16

part the theater criticism part it

27:18

never stopped my desire to engage

27:20

in that way and to think about

27:23

it from my practice oriented perspectives

27:25

. And one of the highest points

27:28

was that I even won an award

27:30

for one of my papers that I

27:32

delivered . I won this

27:34

$500 award and this I think I

27:36

actually . I think I actually have the

27:38

. I can't get it right now , but I have

27:41

the plaque that they gave me

27:43

. But a low point

27:45

on in that was that I

27:47

couldn't go to the presentation because

27:49

I had Evie and I didn't want

27:51

to bring her . You know , she needed to

27:53

dress nicely for it . I just didn't

27:56

have the money to get her anything nice to wear

27:58

, and so I was . I missed the

28:00

, I missed the presentation for it

28:02

because I had , you know , my little

28:04

mama , and so so

28:06

I think the sort of balancing of

28:08

, like , the fact that I'm able

28:11

to have these kind of conversations and

28:13

I'm brave enough to do this work , was

28:16

really encouraging . But

28:18

there were moments where , you know , I just couldn't

28:20

, you know , I just couldn't be at certain places

28:23

because I had you know , I

28:25

had , I had a child , I have a child

28:27

and that's that's necessary . Probably

28:30

another low point I'd have

28:32

to say was that I really wanted

28:34

to write my dissertation about Zora , no Hurston

28:37

. I really wanted to write

28:39

it about Zora , no Hurston , but

28:41

I struggled with the right

28:43

mentorship to be able to make that

28:46

happen . I didn't have

28:48

any scholars in

28:50

my program that were as

28:52

familiar with thinking about

28:54

black womanhood because that's what I was interested

28:56

in is , thinking about black womanhood in her

28:58

texts and I just didn't have

29:00

that kind of mentorship available

29:03

. But what I did have was mentorship

29:05

and ethnography and a

29:07

lot of my professors were

29:09

ethnographers themselves and

29:12

were were in performance

29:14

and thinking about anthropology and

29:16

a lot of that way . So I ended up writing my dissertation

29:19

about about that . But

29:22

yeah , so that's probably like a pretty low point

29:24

was the discovery that that wasn't gonna happen

29:26

and I was gonna have to put Zora on the back burner

29:28

was pretty that

29:31

that was hard , that was hard to take

29:33

but the

29:35

I

29:39

was gonna say , but the I mean .

29:41

The one of the benefits of being

29:43

a scholar and being trained in this work

29:45

is that the work it just continues

29:47

like . Once you get your doctoral degree , you

29:49

can continue to do research , you can continue

29:52

to do work . My little mama is talking

29:54

to us now . I have

29:57

one quick question before we kind of get into your life

30:00

postdoctoral , postdoctoral

30:03

, and this just came to me as you were

30:05

talking about theater criticism . Theater

30:09

is an industry where criticism

30:11

is baked into the

30:14

work , and so

30:16

is academia , and I think that

30:18

something that some one of the many things

30:20

that often folks who are not familiar

30:22

and don't know a lot of people who get a

30:24

doctoral degree are surprised

30:27

by is the kind of feedback

30:29

you get on written work . You

30:31

know , when you submit an article and

30:33

it just comes back rejected . So

30:35

I would love if you could kind of speak to

30:37

, if at all

30:39

and if in . If so , in which

30:42

ways did the field

30:44

of theater prepare you , the

30:47

criticism that is embedded , that culture of criticism

30:50

that is embedded in theater , how

30:52

did that prepare you to navigate

30:54

getting feedback and

30:56

criticism on your scholarly work ?

30:59

um , that's a really great question . So

31:02

I think that my

31:04

program did a good job in preparing

31:06

us for that kind of engagement

31:09

through through

31:11

like active , participatory ways . So

31:14

for example , in one of my classes

31:16

, scott Moggleson

31:18

he's now at Washington

31:20

University of Washington . He was

31:22

at the time the editor for

31:24

a journal , for the Journal

31:26

of Dramatic Theater , I think he was

31:28

. I quite remember JCT

31:31

. Anyway , he was the journal

31:33

managing editor and he was like

31:35

guess what ? I'm gonna teach you a little bit about how to

31:37

manage a journal . We're doing that

31:39

this semester and it was

31:41

supposed to be a theater methods class

31:43

, so kind of fit in that method ease kind

31:46

of way . But through that

31:48

we got to read papers and adjudicate

31:51

papers and really learn

31:53

and really speak the language

31:55

of critical thought

31:57

. Critical thinking and being

32:00

able to help usher of author through

32:02

their thinking and their ideas about

32:04

a particular topic

32:06

, and that was really rewarding

32:08

is having that sense of

32:10

reading other people's work and I mean , like you

32:12

know , fairly big scholars

32:14

who were writing to the journal and submitting

32:17

articles to the journal really

32:19

did help us prepare for how to think

32:21

about our own work through these critical

32:23

lenses and so I'm

32:26

really great it was , it was . It was challenging

32:28

work but I'm really grateful

32:30

for it because it prepared me

32:32

certainly right now I , as a managing editor

32:34

for my , for our journal

32:36

, to really engage in that

32:38

kind of thought-provoking , those

32:40

thought-provoking ways of other people's

32:43

scholarship that then I get to weigh

32:45

in on in

32:47

that way . So I felt like of the program

32:49

did a good job of at least this professor

32:51

did a really good job of introducing us

32:53

to criticism by looking at other people's

32:56

work and being able to respond

32:58

in that in a , in a way that

33:00

was generative for the

33:02

, for the author . So it wasn't

33:04

in this way of like I am the

33:07

critic , you know it's , it's

33:09

my job to , you know

33:11

, glean your work through these

33:14

, through these lenses that aren't

33:16

that are more self-serving for me

33:18

as it is for you . But the idea

33:20

of gift giving that it was really

33:22

about gift giving , that my

33:25

feedback to an author helped

33:27

an author nuance their thinking about something

33:30

that was really like giving a gift to them

33:32

and then

33:34

in and then I also received something

33:36

in return when an author

33:38

resubmitted a paper

33:41

for for further feedback

33:43

and inclusion in the journal . So

33:45

that was , if that answers the question

33:48

, I think does ?

33:50

yeah , it does , and I think that that framework

33:52

of feedback as a gift is

33:54

powerful and a really

33:57

great reframing for folks

33:59

who struggle to receive feedback , who

34:01

kind of hold on to their scholarship and

34:03

their work because they're afraid of sending it out until it's

34:05

perfect . So they get positive feedback . Sorry

34:08

, I really like I'm glad you shared that anecdote

34:10

. So now I want to talk about your

34:12

life and work post PhD

34:15

. So , as you mentioned

34:17

, zora Neale Hurston's work is really

34:19

significant to you . You wanted to study

34:21

her work while you were doing your doctorate

34:24

. Didn't get to do it to the end , but

34:26

you were able to do it after . How

34:28

does her theatrical work resonate

34:30

with your exploration of black womanhood and

34:33

intersect with your anthropological

34:35

and ethnographic research ?

34:37

oh , wow , that's a I all these

34:39

great questions . I

34:41

tell you , though , if you give a , if you give a scholar

34:43

an opportunity to stand on their platform , we'll

34:46

take it . So

34:48

box will take it . So my

34:51

fascination was or no , for Hurston first

34:53

came out of my graduate program , where

34:55

I took a class in theatrical

34:58

modernism , or American

35:00

modernism , that looked at , you

35:02

know , plays , reframe them , reframe these

35:04

plays through this very theatrical lens , and

35:08

Zora Neale Hurston was one of the scholars

35:10

that were part of that . I didn't even know she wrote

35:12

plays until I

35:15

took that class and discovered that she

35:17

had written a lot of plays and

35:19

in a lot of ways , theater was actually

35:21

going to , because at the time period , theater was

35:23

gonna save the race and a lot of ways

35:25

a lot of artists of that time period , of the early

35:27

of the new Negro period

35:30

and of the early Harlem Renaissance in

35:32

the early 20th century , really

35:34

did feel like theater was gonna save the race , and

35:36

Hurston was not , was not

35:38

immune to that , actually believed that as well

35:40

and attempted through

35:43

her theatrical work to

35:45

paint a story

35:47

and tell a story about black , southern

35:50

black folks and their own , from

35:52

their own perspectives , and so

35:54

her anthropological work and her ethnographic

35:56

work really attempts to

35:58

. It's actually quite joined in

36:01

that by having this beautiful , rich

36:03

ethnographic work , in this anthropological

36:05

work , the theater helps

36:07

realize

36:10

that . It helps realize that for audiences

36:12

and while Hurston , I think

36:14

, was attempting to write towards black audiences

36:17

so that black people could see themselves

36:19

in these , in these , in these ways

36:21

and really understand

36:23

self and identity , a

36:25

lot of funding came from white people

36:27

, and so I think that there is a little bit

36:30

of twofold in terms

36:32

of audiences , of how it is that

36:34

audiences really received . Hurston's work

36:36

was from this you sort of white gaze

36:38

, but also to from the black gaze

36:40

as well and people who identified

36:43

with those cultures , kind of like how

36:45

we see gospel plays today

36:47

. You know , if you've ever

36:49

seen a gospel play , it's

36:51

definitely has a lot

36:54

of Christian undertones I'd say Christian

36:56

overtones as part of them , but

36:58

they also speak to culture and they speak to

37:00

black culture and Hurston moved

37:02

in that same kind of way . So

37:06

so , yeah , so I think

37:08

, in terms of my own investigations

37:11

of her work , that black

37:13

womanhood appears

37:15

as a stark

37:17

contrast to black malehood

37:20

, to black men , in the play , in

37:22

these plays , and a lot of times black

37:24

women are arguing

37:27

for one aspect of identity . And

37:29

then black men are often arguing for

37:31

something , for something different , but

37:34

they find a way in her place to meet in

37:36

the middle . They don't always agree

37:38

, but they find a way to resolve

37:40

some kind of conflict or come from

37:42

some kind of position . And so I'm

37:45

really intrigued by that intersection

37:47

of of gender

37:50

and identity , where

37:52

black women are professing a lot

37:54

of the desire to

37:57

be looked at as

37:59

human and is treated as

38:01

human beings and not as objects , and

38:04

so negotiating that , while at the same

38:06

time they are also

38:08

in domestichood

38:10

, thinking about being mothers , thinking about

38:12

being wives . One of my favorite moments

38:14

in a play , one of Hersta's plays , the

38:16

Turkey and the Law , is at

38:19

the very beginning of Act Two , where these

38:21

women in the community are

38:23

talking about what's

38:25

needed for their community , what's needed for

38:28

the men to understand themselves , while at the same

38:30

time talking about cooking and cooking

38:32

for their men . And so it's really complicated

38:35

in that either professing a sense

38:37

of self by talking about the needs

38:39

of the community and what needs to happen

38:41

in order for the conflict to be resolved

38:43

, but at the same time they're like I

38:46

gotta go make dinner , because you know , if so-and-so

38:48

doesn't have dinner on the table , there's gonna

38:50

be trouble . So that

38:52

really complication is

38:54

very interesting for me , and

38:56

so I'm

38:59

currently and I'm

39:01

hoping that it's kind of like one of those lifelong

39:03

loves . I

39:06

do a lot of things in the theater but

39:08

I'm kind of hoping that Hersta is one of my lifelong

39:11

loves , that I'll constantly be revisiting

39:13

her plays because there's just so many juicy

39:15

bits that are part of it , but

39:18

that I'll always be sort of coming back to

39:20

it in those ways .

39:23

So I have just a few

39:25

more questions as we start to wind down . I

39:27

want , I'm dying to hear about your

39:29

solo performance work . Can

39:31

you talk about some of the

39:34

issues that you address in your solo

39:36

work ? Why even do solo work as

39:38

opposed to I don't know if the opposite of solo

39:40

work now that I'm saying it , I'm like I don't she

39:42

don't know the appropriate

39:44

theatrical term for non-solo work

39:47

but what inspired

39:49

you to do solo performance work

39:51

and what are some of the main

39:54

issues and

39:56

conflicts and themes that you

39:58

tend to address in your solo performances ?

40:01

Oh , yeah , this is . You guys got all

40:03

these great questions . This is so awesome . Okay , so

40:07

my interest ? So

40:09

I have a certificate in performance

40:11

studies from

40:15

my institution and so

40:17

a lot of my professors spent

40:19

a time doing ethnographic

40:21

work and connecting it to theater and particularly

40:23

theatrical practice . And so

40:26

, working on my dissertation

40:28

, it kind of opened the door for

40:30

me , for

40:33

how could I express the complicated

40:35

feelings and the complicated

40:37

interpretations of black identity that's

40:40

explored in my dissertation ? How could that be actualized

40:42

? How can , similar to Zorin

40:45

Al-Herson , how can what I was learning

40:47

in the field be effectively

40:49

understood through the body ? And

40:51

so how does the body become this

40:53

space and this become this apparatus

40:56

for nuancing identities , particularly

40:58

black female identities ? And

41:01

so I began to sort

41:03

of muse about the notion of solo

41:06

performance . Solo

41:08

performance is incredibly theatrical

41:10

. It's storytelling

41:13

, and a very theatrical from a very theatrical

41:15

standpoint , with the ability of

41:17

which for the performer to

41:19

connect with audience and

41:22

recognize that through the process of storytelling

41:24

, there's a theatrical element , that there's a connection

41:27

to audience , and a very direct connection to

41:29

audience , as opposed to in scene work

41:31

, where there's a direct connection

41:33

to the other , knowing that you

41:35

are being watched through another

41:38

kind of lens . So it's two sort

41:40

of separate , different spaces and

41:43

so I was really interested in the solo performance component

41:46

of it . And then auto ethnography

41:48

really came about in my

41:51

graduate experience too , in writing

41:53

about auto ethnography and

41:56

really thinking about what does it mean to

41:59

be reflexive in

42:01

how it is that really performance , auto ethnography

42:04

? So how to be sort of thinking reflexively about

42:06

self in

42:09

these very theatrical sort of

42:11

performative ways , so

42:13

acknowledging that performance , identity

42:16

and theatrical

42:19

storytelling can exist simultaneously

42:22

to tell a larger story about

42:25

what's happening in the world and

42:28

making larger connections between

42:30

self and larger

42:32

issues that are happening . And

42:35

so my solo auto ethnographic

42:37

work really attempts to respond to that

42:39

. And because of the time when I was in

42:42

graduate school I was really thinking

42:44

about black motherhood and a lot of those

42:46

spaces , my

42:49

writing of my solo auto ethnographic

42:51

work really took shape there

42:53

. I was really intrigued

42:55

. One of my very first pieces was called Blunt

42:57

Force Trauma is called Blunt Force Trauma , where

43:00

I was really intrigued by how

43:02

it is that a mother could hurt

43:05

her child . I had taken , I

43:08

had learned about a story of

43:11

a black woman who had murdered her son

43:13

because he had thrown

43:15

a Wii controller , a remote

43:18

controller , a video game controller

43:20

into a television , to their television , and

43:22

so she beat him to death . And

43:25

yeah , it was very tragic . She

43:28

had beat him to death and the thing was is she waited

43:30

five days in their apartment for him

43:32

to die . And the whole

43:34

time she doesn't the

43:38

whole thinking of it I think her processing

43:41

of it is that she doesn't think he's

43:43

that bad , and she was also

43:45

. When she was caught

43:47

by the police and arrested and

43:50

incarcerated , she

43:54

told the judge that she was afraid and

43:56

that she was scared that she was going to

43:58

get in trouble . And we talk about a 19

44:00

year old mother of two who

44:04

was a parent , and so I was really intrigued by

44:06

that idea about

44:08

how could there

44:10

be empathy and compassion for

44:12

someone who could do something so horrible to another

44:14

human being , also their child

44:16

. And so that intersection

44:19

of just finding empathy I

44:21

felt like solo auto ethnographic performance

44:24

gave me a way to look

44:26

through my own life and how I was parenting

44:28

my own child , because

44:31

we really don't know as parents if we're doing a good

44:34

job . We listen

44:36

to what our elders and our ancestors

44:38

tell us about parenting

44:41

, but we don't know we

44:43

could be causing harm . We could be doing harm

44:45

. So I

44:48

wanted a way to negotiate

44:50

that and I felt like solo auto

44:52

ethnographic performance gave me the platform

44:55

and really gave me the lens

44:57

to be able to critically understand

44:59

how it was that I how was

45:01

my relationship to my daughter ? Sort

45:07

of sort of

45:10

a dance , how was my

45:12

relationship to my daughter really

45:14

impactful compared to this woman

45:16

who had had a relationship with her son in

45:18

this way ? And so I say

45:20

all that to say that soul auto ethnographic performance

45:23

really does open up spaces of empathy

45:25

and really the exploration of humanness

45:27

in that . So when you're connecting

45:29

a very hot

45:31

topic to

45:35

thinking about self , it

45:37

opens up the door for a lot of conversations

45:40

that audiences can have with each other , that

45:42

audiences can have with the performer

45:44

. So always making sure that any of my performances

45:47

I have talk backs so it

45:49

gets the audience talking about what it is that

45:51

I did is really

45:53

important and really valuable . So it

45:55

becomes this beautiful way of expression

45:57

. That's also this way of learning and

46:00

navigating how we know and

46:02

what we know and

46:05

so , yeah , so I feel very privileged

46:08

to do that kind of work

46:10

, because there's a lot

46:12

of troubling

46:14

ways that you can get caught

46:16

up in self and forget that

46:19

the work really is

46:22

for a larger audience and

46:24

we learn something in that larger audience

46:26

which I think separates

46:29

the work of like

46:31

, let's say , richard Pryor

46:33

, who I also think is a very compelling

46:35

solo performance artist , in the work of John

46:37

Leguizamo and wanting to talk about

46:40

his culture . Puerto Norican

46:43

culture is

46:46

solo

46:48

performance in a way that is attempting

46:50

to tell a story , but when you add the auto ethnographic

46:53

component we begin to learn something

46:55

about ourselves and about the communities

46:57

at which we are part of , and the audience

46:59

also gets that as well . So again

47:02

about this gift exchange I'm all about exchanging

47:04

gifts , y'all this beautiful

47:06

exchanging of gifts that happen

47:08

when we combine and really think

47:10

through solo auto ethnographic performance

47:13

.

47:14

I am just like so

47:16

intrigued by all . This is so different from

47:18

my work and really anything I'm

47:20

familiar with . So I am like

47:22

really curious . I'm going to scour the internet

47:25

and figure out how we can find some

47:27

of your work and some of your performances and

47:29

we'll drop whatever we find in the

47:31

show notes so that anyone else listening can

47:33

also better understand

47:36

and hopefully be able to experience some of what

47:38

you're talking about , that gift exchange

47:40

of the auto ethnographic work

47:42

from the actor , the performer to

47:44

the audience . It just sounds so

47:46

fascinating , so I'm really excited

47:48

to delve in a little bit more deeply . Final

47:50

two questions as you reflect on your doctoral

47:53

journey , what's one thing that you would do differently

47:55

if you had to do it all over again ?

47:58

Oh , yeah , okay . So if I had

48:00

to do it all over again , I

48:03

was going to a lot of conferences when I was a graduate

48:05

student and I think if

48:08

I had to do it all over again , I would have

48:10

involved myself and more

48:12

theater groups that

48:14

were that had like

48:16

strong , like I don't want to say strong , but

48:19

just had more black women

48:21

as part of like

48:25

, as part of those conversations . So

48:27

being able to , you know

48:29

, go to ATHAs , association

48:31

for Theater and Higher Education , which is really

48:33

expensive to go to and

48:36

connecting with the Black Theater Association

48:38

there , bta , where

48:41

there are a lot of black women who occupy

48:44

a lot of those spaces , and so just

48:46

being able to , you know , do more to make

48:48

those connections . And if I

48:50

, and if not , like , finding ways

48:52

that I could facilitate that

48:54

kind of engagement with black

48:56

female scholars in the field , you

48:59

know , I think if I had , you know , had sort

49:01

of know what I know now and could go back , I

49:04

would definitely want to do that

49:06

kind of work . And right

49:08

now I'm really interested in creating

49:11

those enclaves of black

49:14

women who can support one another

49:16

black women in theater , particularly black women

49:18

in theater in the academy that can support

49:21

one another and think about , like the process for

49:23

tenure , and thinking about

49:25

like how do we advance ourselves

49:27

in a you know , I'm not going to lie

49:29

very white supremacist , like spaces

49:32

that the academy often they

49:34

become , they often are , they

49:37

often are , and so how do we support

49:39

one another in our journeys and

49:41

our collective journeys and our

49:43

individual ways that we want

49:45

to study and practice and

49:47

think critically about

49:49

theater is

49:52

something that I definitely wish I had

49:54

had in my graduate journey , for

49:56

sure .

49:57

That makes a lot of sense . And last

49:59

question what is one final piece of advice

50:02

that you have for current

50:04

black women and non binary doctoral students

50:06

, perhaps , especially those who are in

50:08

the humanities and the arts ? What's

50:11

some advice that you have for them ?

50:12

Okay . So I know you asked me for one , but

50:14

I got to . My first

50:16

thing is is that

50:19

, as black

50:22

folks , we need

50:24

a plan . We

50:26

need a plan of action because

50:29

folks will tell us

50:31

you know why

50:34

. Folks will tell us what

50:37

that , what our scholarship

50:40

should look like and

50:42

the kind of communities that we

50:44

should be working with and thinking

50:47

about , especially as you move

50:49

in the tenure process . So

50:51

having a clear plan , a

50:53

clear set of goals of what you

50:55

intend to accomplish with your degree

50:58

while you're in your program is

51:01

going to be paramount . Making

51:04

sure that , as you are goal planning

51:06

and goal setting , you're also thinking about

51:09

your own life and what is accomplishable

51:11

. If you've got children , if you've got

51:13

, you know a partner or a spouse

51:15

. If you've got , you know your

51:18

caretaker for your own , for your

51:20

parents , for your families , you

51:22

know what is . How are those goals going to be

51:24

aligned in that way so

51:26

that , in a lot of ways , no one

51:28

can tell you what your degree

51:30

is going to do and what you are going

51:32

to do , but that you have clearly

51:34

paved a way that is accessible

51:37

to you , that takes into account the

51:39

struggle because there is struggle , there

51:41

is always struggle

51:44

, so that you stay sane , you know . You know

51:46

nobody gonna tell you you crazy . You know like

51:48

you've got a clear path . So that's

51:50

my , that's my first one . My

51:53

second one is that get

51:56

a life . Get

51:59

a life that is not in the academy

52:02

, get a life that is filled

52:04

with folks that care about you

52:06

, that love you the most in your life

52:08

I had . I had a

52:10

. One of my , one of my friends

52:13

in my cohort said you know , graduate

52:16

school really makes you an asshole Because

52:19

you forget you're . We're working so

52:21

hard that we forget that we have

52:23

families and so , no

52:25

, no , a life like , imagine

52:28

a life like . Get a community , be

52:30

part of a community , create

52:32

this was one of the best things I ever went to was

52:36

a sister soul group of

52:38

black women who can sit

52:40

in space with one another and meditate

52:42

and talk and journal and just reflect

52:44

on life . And it's your space

52:46

. So a sister soul circle is

52:49

a great , great spaces , because they

52:51

also not only do they reify

52:53

your commitment to a beautiful

52:55

community of black women , but

52:57

it also reifies who you

52:59

are and what it is that you

53:02

, what it is that you need

53:04

in order to get you through your

53:06

program or through your first tenure , track position

53:08

or through just through the academy

53:10

. So I would definitely say have

53:13

a have a plan , a goal , a path

53:15

that aligns with your own goals in your life

53:17

, and then get a life . Have

53:20

friends , call your parents , call

53:23

your , your aunties and your uncles

53:25

and the people who care the most

53:27

about you . Keep them in contact because I'll

53:29

tell you they are supporting you , they

53:32

are behind you , they love you and

53:34

they care about you and they got your back and

53:37

so recognizing that you are not alone

53:39

, that's , that's

53:41

some good that's . I'm gonna call that some

53:44

good advice , it's really good advice

53:46

.

53:46

That is a fantastic advice have a

53:48

plan and get a life . Thank you

53:50

so much , dr Gibbs , for sharing so

53:53

much of your own doctoral journey

53:55

, your work , your interests

53:57

, your research , as well as really critical

53:59

advice for our listeners . We're

54:01

really excited to have had you on the Coversus's

54:04

podcast .

54:06

Yes , yes , I am grateful

54:08

. Thank you so much for this gift

54:10

. I am very grateful to you . Much

54:13

love to y'all . I appreciate you so much

54:15

, Dr Cola . Thank you .

54:26

Thank you again for listening to this week's episode

54:28

of the Cohort Sisters podcast . If

54:31

you are a black woman interested in joining

54:33

the Cohort Sisters membership community

54:35

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54:37

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54:39

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54:42

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54:44

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54:48

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54:50

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54:53

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54:55

you so much for joining us this week and we'll

54:57

catch you in next week's episode .