0:03

Welcome to the Cohort Sisters podcast, where you give voice to the stories, struggles and successes of Black women and non-binary folks with doctoral degrees.

0:12

I'm your host, dr E John McCollough.

0:14

Today, I'm thrilled to introduce our guest, dr Maya Kari-Ajiman, a scholar whose passion for history has led her to uncover profound narratives that have shaped the African-American experience.

0:26

Dr Kari-Ajiman holds a PhD in history from Rutgers University, new Brunswick, specializing in 20th century African-American and US women's and gender history.

0:36

Dr Kari-Ajiman's current book project is a captivating exploration of coming of age and Black girlhood in 20th century Washington DC and sheds light on the intricate interplay of identity, growth and societal transformation.

0:51

As a co-editor of Scarlet and Black Volume 3, making Black Lives Matter at Rutgers 1945 to 2020, and a published author in Washington history, her expertise has welcomed the threads of history, civil rights and gender into a compelling tapestry of knowledge.

1:10

Welcome, dr Kari-Ajiman, to the Cohort Sisters podcast.

1:14

Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.

1:18

So tell us a little bit about who you are when you are not working.

1:22

I know you're a Jersey girl, so give us a little bit more flavor into you.

1:27

Know just a little bit about who you are, where you grew up, where you currently are now and what are some of the things that you like to do when you are not being an amazing scholar.

1:36

Sure. So, like you stated, I am a Jersey girl, born and raised, lived there for most of my life, lived in different parts of the state, so yes, I've seen the entire state.

1:48

I am back in New Jersey Currently.

1:53

What I like to do when I'm not working I love baking.

1:56

Especially during the holidays it's a lot of fun to bake for my family and friends.

2:00

You know I like to watch movies, binge a good TV show.

2:06

I like to go on walks, especially now the weather is in that sweet spot.

2:11

So yeah, that's basically about me.

2:16

Nice. Yeah, we were just first of all for the listeners.

2:20

This is the second time we're recording this because it's the first time I've been in a struggle in the complete transparency.

2:25

But we bonded a lot because we're both from New Jersey and, like, from not necessarily similar place in Jersey, but have overlapped in terms of like where we've lived and where we spent some time, so already feeling community with you because of that.

2:42

But then also there aren't that many historians who come onto the podcast, so I always love connecting with my history folks.

2:49

How did you become interested in history, like?

2:52

What was that spark for you? Were you always a history lover?

2:56

Did you come to it later in life? What kind of got you interested in history broadly and then specifically in the kind of work that you study around Black girlhood in the 20th century?

3:07

Sure, so I was that kid. I always enjoyed history.

3:11

I always enjoyed my social studies and history classes.

3:14

I was a really big reader as a kid, so I really enjoyed reading historical fiction, but also biographies and autobiographies.

3:24

I love to read those. But for me, that moment where it clicked like oh, being a historian is a job, would be an undergrad.

3:35

And I walked in my first semester of college and I had this black woman that was teaching African American history and I was like wow, like I just I had never seen that before.

3:49

It never really clicked in my mind that like, oh, like being a historian is an actual job.

3:54

So that's what really made me see like, ok, that's a possibility for someone that loves history, enjoys history.

4:01

I planned on majoring in history.

4:03

That was a career path, you know, outside of the typical K through 12 teaching that I could think about doing.

4:10

And in terms of my own work you know there's this saying where it's like well, as a historian, I will say like part of what we do right, and I'm going to add to debates and narratives and identify gaps in the literature.

4:24

And I really enjoyed researching and reading about youth culture and I wasn't seeing black girls in that, or black young people in general, but particularly black girls, and I'm just like you know that that's strange, like black people were part of youth culture.

4:41

We were young at a certain point in our lives.

4:44

Why are we not a part of this narrative?

4:47

So that's how I just started, kind of like asking those questions and that's how I landed on my work specifically with coming of age and girl social organizations, because that allows me to kind of enter that conversation about young people and youth culture in a way.

5:06

So that's how I landed on what I'm doing.

5:09

Yeah, I'm curious and I don't know if I asked you this before but was there anything about your own youth or your own upbringing or childhood that inspired you, you know, aside from recognizing that there was a huge gap in discussions about black girls, in discussions about black or youth culture more broadly, but was there anything about your own childhood or your own experience that kind of made you say you know?

5:36

I feel like we should be talking about this specific moment in black girls lives.

5:41

Was there any personal connection for you?

5:44

Sure, I mean, part of it was that I was looking back on my own experiences and thinking like, well, I was, you know, going through these kind of like typical teenage.

5:55

You know milestones and issues.

5:58

So I'm just like, well, we're thinking about these things, we're experiencing these things.

6:04

Maybe not the exact same way, right, because you know race and class and all of that matters, right.

6:10

So maybe not in the same exact ways, but it's like we are, you know, trying to navigate these milestones and these changes that come with growing up.

6:22

So, just from my own personal experience, I'm like, well, I know, surely I'm not the only young black woman that has experienced those things.

6:32

And then also, so I look at the relationship between adolescent black girls in Washington DC and the social organizations, and one of the social organizations that I look at is the Girl Scouts.

6:46

I was a Girl Scout, my mom was a Girl Scout, so there is a bit of a personal connection there as well in terms of, like, the specifics of my research.

6:56

Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you shared that, because I actually was wondering that from the last time we spoke I was like wait, I forgot to ask her if she was like a Girl Scout or if she participated in those kind of like organized activities that I don't know.

7:11

Actually, now I'm curious are you involved in any contemporary discussions?

7:16

Is there like a decline in black participation in organized activities?

7:22

I feel like I'm just going to have a very anecdotal thought, but I feel like with social media, I've been blaming social media for everything with our students.

7:29

These days, Part of me feels like kids are not engaged as much as they used to be in organized activities because of the internet.

7:39

So I'm curious at all if you have anything to add to that comment or completely debunk it.

7:45

Sure. So I don't have the numbers, but so I look at the time here from like the 1930s through the 1960s, and even by the time we get to the 1960s, there is a bit of this declining interest in these organized activities.

8:03

So based on that, again, I don't have the specific numbers, but I would say that it is in decline.

8:09

I mean, I don't really currently know any young people that are involved in any organized activities.

8:16

And then I just also think it has to do with the fact, like you know, most people are in households where either one or both parents are working.

8:26

So it's just like these demands on families.

8:30

It makes it harder to participate or to have access to these activities, particularly if they're not free.

8:36

So if you're already kind of in an economic space where you can't really afford to do a ton of leisure activities, specifically talking about black people and other people of color, right, it's a little bit harder to have access to those things.

8:54

Yes, excellent point, excellent point. So let's get back to your academic journey.

8:58

At what point you know? You say you're in college.

9:01

You have this black woman professor teaching African American studies, opening up your minds to the world, the possibility of actually teaching history and black history at a collegiate level.

9:13

You know what was the moment for you that you decided that you wanted to pursue doctoral studies and what were some of the steps that you took on your journey towards entering your doctoral program.

9:24

Sure. So it's hard to pinpoint a specific moment, but I did have the opportunity to do an honors thesis, which includes doing, you know, original research.

9:39

I was able to apply for a grant through my school to fund that research, right.

9:43

So doing those you know things that we end up doing in graduate school and as historians, it gave me a taste of, like what it would be like to be in that type of type of role, minus the teaching part, but at least the research part, and I found that I really enjoyed it and I really enjoyed kind of going to the archive with questions, because I do think, specifically, if you are going to graduate school for history, I do think there has to be a little bit more than like a love and a passion for history, right, you can't just be like a casual hey, I like to watch historical films, right, like, there has to be this passion to like answer questions and I think that's like doing that research project.

10:35

It made it like evidence me like, oh, like I enjoy kind of going into the archive, going in with questions, asking these questions, excuse me and, you know, having them answered or challenged.

10:49

So I think that was the specific moment and, in terms of preparing for graduate school.

10:55

It really was about just working closely with my advisor and letting her mentor me right and to give me insight about what it is to go to graduate school, what it is to go to graduate school as a black woman, right?

11:10

So I think those were like two important moments.

11:16

So your mentor is was in college correct me if I'm wrong and you were able to have a Black woman mentor in college as you're preparing for the doctoral application.

11:27

I was, and she was the only Black faculty member in that department and really, because my interests align with African-American history, she was the African-Americanist in the department, so that's how it happened.

11:42

You know not saying that I didn't have other professors there that could mentor me, but I just think that was such a I think that made a huge difference because she also challenged me in different ways, you know, encouraging me to write the thesis right.

11:58

It was kind of like, oh so you're writing this thesis right.

12:01

It was like too much of a conversation about it, so she pushed me.

12:07

So and I think that's what you get when you get a Black woman as a mentor.

12:12

Yes, which is why it's so important for there to be more of us in these spaces at the undergraduate level, at the graduate level, doing the work of teaching and mentoring, because that's how we it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

12:26

That's the right like we need more of us to encourage more of us to go.

12:29

It's like a, it's a cycle that we know we're really working hard to interrupt and to insert more of us into these spaces.

12:38

It just, it not only benefits other Black women students.

12:41

It benefits everyone, right, you know? Being able to have diverse perspectives in the classroom, being able to learn from people who look like you, who don't look like you, who share your identity and can really just teach you about different elements of the world.

12:55

Especially in our current socio-political context, where everything Black history is really under attack, I think it's so important for there to continue to be really strong Black women scholars, historians and educators in our field.

13:12

So thank you for doing the work and continuing to, to continue the legacy that was started when that faculty member started to mentor you.

13:22

So, as you entered into your doctoral program I know this, but I'm going to tell everybody else who doesn't yet know you remained in New Jersey.

13:34

You actually did all of your academic training in the same state and New Jersey.

13:38

I love Jersey like no one can come from New Jersey when they're around me.

13:42

However, I too, as someone who grew up in New Jersey, was like immediately know I will go anywhere outside of the state in order to do my educational training, and it wasn't necessarily like I didn't like Jersey, I just like wanted to get away from home.

14:00

So I would love for you to speak about.

14:02

You know, some of the considerations like what were you, what were some of the things that you were considering and debating as you were making your final decision about what graduate program to go to and why, ultimately, did you decide to go to Rutgers and remain in New Jersey, close to your family?

14:19

Sure, so I too love this state but I was, you know, determined to get out right Ever since undergrad and I just kept on getting pulled back.

14:30

But, thinking about Rutgers in particular, there were a couple of you know things that factored in my decision.

14:39

One was just the options that I was presented with right.

14:43

So Rutgers was the PhD program that I got admitted to.

14:49

I got admitted into another program but that would have not been, like, funded or as this would have been funded.

14:57

So that's a huge factor.

15:01

But also, just, you know, thinking about who is at the school, the faculty that I can work with, like in terms of doing African American history or women's and gender history, rutgers is such a wonderful and rich place to go If you are researching or studying those things.

15:21

So I feel really fortunate that I was admitted into the program and I got the opportunity to study there, even though I was determined to leave.

15:30

It really was the best fit for me. And I do think and we can talk about this kind of like the pros and cons of staying in your home state when you are a graduate student one thing that I went into the program not necessarily considering was the intellectual.

15:50

Well, I knew about the intellectual challenges of grad school, but I wasn't prepared for the emotional challenges of grad school, and being near family and friends like an established group of friends was extremely helpful.

16:06

You know I could after a day of working, I can go to my cousin's house and decompress you know so there are definitely pros with that.

16:15

A potential con could be you know you're not outwardly trying to build relationships with people in your institution, in your program because you already have this kind of like set group of people that you have.

16:27

But you know I made sure to build network and community outside of my family and already established group of friends.

16:37

Yeah, and I'm curious about how far away like what campus from your family were they?

16:44

Like 15 minutes away, an hour away, like how.

16:46

I'm just trying to say how close we all.

16:48

Yeah, so in terms of my extended family, like I mentioned my cousin it's the same town, so I was born in New Brunswick.

16:57

I didn't like live there throughout my childhood, but that's where my family is.

17:00

My mom was born and raised there.

17:03

And I went to the New Brunswick campus of Rutgers, right.

17:07

So my family was 10 minutes, you know same town whereas my parents and my sister they were further out, but you know, still an easy drive.

17:18

And another pro is financial.

17:22

So I ended up living with my parents after I did my exams and I was able to save a whole lot of money.

17:33

So you know, our funds are limited as graduate students.

17:39

So I think financially that was also a really great choice for me and and having parents that knew what I was doing and understood like okay, like we can't distract you right.

17:52

So I think that also matters too.

17:56

Yeah, no, that's actually reminding me of I also moved, not completely, but after I finished my exams I was wedding planning and part of our like wedding saving strategy was that I would Airbnb my apartment.

18:10

So anytime I would have someone and I lived in Harlem but my parents were in Jersey, so anytime I'd have an Airbnb booking, I would take the train over to my parents' house and crash for a few days and you know it was.

18:22

It was really great. But you're right, there was this understanding of you know you're here and we expect you to be at the dinner table at dinner time, because that's what we do in this household.

18:31

But we also understand that you're you're really working on something and so you know, not expect like not distracting us during the day, and I think that that's really it's really helpful, and I don't know if I necessarily appreciated how kind and generous my parents were in that moment, not just in terms of opening up their household but really creating a safe space for me to do my doctoral work and to do it in an environment that was far more conducive than if I was like trying to be on campus, because that was not for me, not my ideal work environment.

19:05

So, yeah, shout out to all the families who do the hard work of supporting us through thick and thin, even when they have no idea what we're studying or researching or why, and they still make space for us and still welcome us home at any given point.

19:22

So shout out to them. You mentioned about being intentional about creating community because you already had a community, like.

19:31

You didn't technically need to make any new friends.

19:33

You, you have people, you have family, you had friends. What were some of the ways in which you found and built community during your graduate program?

19:44

Sure, in many different ways. You know just doing like social outings with people in my program.

19:51

Or you know, for example, studying for exams right, like doing that with other people.

19:58

You know you take this part of the book list, I take this part, and exchange notes and discuss what we read.

20:08

Right, so, just like doing the like actual work of graduate school with other people.

20:15

You know, if I know someone that will be at Starbucks writing, hey, you know I'll join them.

20:20

Right, because we did have people that you know set up writing groups and all of that.

20:25

So you know, just doing the actual work, but also making sure that you make time to like socialize with people and not talk about the work, of what we're doing, but going bowling or something like that right, so, just trying to participate whenever there's an activity.

20:42

Show your face and I know, as someone that's introverted, there are times when I don't feel like going out and showing my face, but it's so important, like I don't.

20:52

I don't think I would have made it through my program if I didn't have that community, because, as much as I love my friends and family, they truly don't understand what it is to get a PhD and the blood, sweat and tears that that requires, so you need people that understand where you're coming from.

21:14

So it was really important for me to make sure that I had community within my program.

21:21

Yeah, you mentioned that a lot of that.

21:23

One of the things that drew you to Rutgers was that it was had a very strong faculty contingent of identity, people with similar identities to you, other black women, historians.

21:35

Did you also find that amongst your cohort, the other doctoral students, was there a lot of diversity, of racial gender diversity?

21:45

So I wouldn't say in my specific cohort, but across cohorts for sure, like there was, you know, a handful in every cohort.

21:57

And that's why I think it's also important to think about the faculty but also about the students, like if you can reach out to grad current graduate students and talk to them about their experiences.

22:10

I think that's really important. And one thing that one of my friends from grad school talked about was, you know, creating your own cohort right so, even if you aren't coming in with these people right.

22:24

Building connections with people across your your cohorts right so you can create your own kind of group and scholarly home, because in your individual cohort you might not find that diversity, but, you know, go out and try to meet the older students that haven't taken their exams yet right, so they're still there they're still very visible and around the department and that's where you can find kind of the, the, the group that you would like to have, or I think that can support you the most.

22:59

Yeah, yeah. But important caveat to not try to find a six-tier grad student because they're, you're not gonna find them.

23:06

Yeah, they won't be there for a good reason they need to be writing.

23:11

So what were some of the biggest successes that you had during your doctoral journey and what were some of the main challenges that you experienced?

23:21

Sure successes.

23:24

I just I really saw what I was capable of.

23:28

So I was always that, you know strong student.

23:33

I always did well in school. Then I get to graduate school and I'm surrounded by people that are strong students, ended well in school, um, and some of them, you know, got their masters.

23:45

I went straight through from my undergrad, so I didn't have a master's degree, right.

23:50

So I'm thrown into this group of people that I perceive are smarter than me and have much more to save in me, um, but I finished, like I was able to do the same work that they were able to do, um, and I think that I did it pretty well, right, like there.

24:08

There there was definitely growth, for sure, um, and I would say that was my biggest success, where it's like I felt like it forced me to really challenge myself, um, in ways that I hadn't challenged myself prior, and I and I think that that made me a stronger person, um, and now, when I'm hit with adversity, right, it's a little bit different, right, um, because I was able to persevere through that um challenges.

24:36

I I kind of gestured towards this when talking about my successes.

24:40

Um, it was just, you know, convincing myself that I belong to be that I belong there.

24:50

Um, because again it was just like wow, I feel like I'm not as smart as these other people, I'm not as prepared as these other people.

24:58

Um, so emotionally it was really difficult and you know, even once you get to the end of your program and for me personally, like my first year on the job market, it wasn't great.

25:11

So I see all of my friends getting these interviews and offers and I'm just like I'm not having that same success.

25:20

So it did rock my confidence um a bit, but I've recovered from it.

25:26

But it's just like I just was not again, I wasn't prepared for the emotions of it all when I went into the grad school, right, and I think that that's it's such a big piece, but it's the one thing that's not taught.

25:44

Like, there's no summer research program that will teach you how to navigate the politics of your department as a grad student, the tensions of you know the two people on your committee who don't like each other.

25:58

You didn't know that before you put them both on your committee.

26:00

Um, like, no, nothing teaches you, there's nothing prepared for that, but there should be something that prepares you for that, because that's those are often the things that, like can really interrupt your progress.

26:11

It really kind of shake your, your confidence and your work and your scholarship and um, and who you are as a researcher.

26:19

So you know, I'm just I'm now kind of like thinking through okay, how can we actually make sure that we are getting to the nitty gritty of, like, the emotional support systems, aside from building community, aside from ensuring that there's adequate mentorship for folks?

26:34

That just gave me some stuff to think about. Um, since you mentioned it, I actually and I don't think we talked about this the last time, but I would love to talk about, um, the job market, because it is.

26:47

I mean, every, every season is job market season, but the fall is it's definitely job market season, um, and history is a discipline um that often has produces more phd's than there are jobs for um, and so I would love for you to expand a little bit on one.

27:05

As you were wrapping up your dissertation, were you kind of timing the market in some kind of way?

27:11

Did you, you know, finish completely and then go on the market, or were you kind of like writing while on the market?

27:16

So one question about how you timed your approach?

27:19

And then, secondly, I'd love to know um just a little bit more on what you were thinking about in terms of what kinds of jobs you were looking for and what kinds of jobs you ended up applying to sure.

27:33

So I was writing while I was on the market, um, because I thought that's just what you were supposed to do, like I.

27:41

Like I didn't, I guess because I hadn't met anyone that said like okay, I'm gonna finish and then go on the market.

27:49

I think he was just like all right, like we need something in place for when this degree is over.

27:55

Um, yeah, so I was trying to finish up the dissertation and I was on the job market, and I think part of the challenge of that is that when you're writing your dissertation, the finished product that you get sometimes isn't what you think you're doing, if that makes sense, right?

28:13

Yeah, it's like you're telling a different narrative than what you think you're actually telling.

28:17

So I think that makes it difficult to sometimes write these job materials.

28:22

Um, because you're still like you think you know what you're doing, but you actually you know there's some things that still need to be worked out.

28:30

So that makes it challenging, um, um, and in terms of like the decisions that me, that I that factored sorry, what factored into my choices for where I applied for jobs and postdocs, um, I had to know that I wanted to be able to live there.

28:52

Um, and I do think there is still a narrative and I think this might be from like, older faculty where it's like you go where the jobs are and, as you mentioned right, there are more PhDs produced and there are jobs.

29:07

So you're kind of operating from this like scarcity mindset, where it's like I just want to get a job, um, so I should just apply everywhere.

29:17

But for me it was more like okay, can I live there?

29:20

Um, because there was a position at an institution and I was just like I cannot see myself living there.

29:28

But I knew someone that was a former faculty member there, so I reached out to them and said, hey, how was your experience?

29:35

And that conversation. I was like I'm definitely not applying to this job, someone else can have it, um, so I think like it's okay to be selective, um, I think it can be kind of scary to be selective, um, but it's just like you're gonna have to live there, um, and your well-being is going to be super important.

29:59

It's it's going to impact how you do your job, um, so it's okay to be selective.

30:05

That's a major piece of advice that I would give love that advice.

30:10

I think that applies not only for people who are on the job market as they're finishing their doctoral programs, but even people who are applying to doctoral programs to start right.

30:19

So you know, most programs you often have to be in residence for at least through coursework.

30:25

So can you live somewhere for three years? Can you live somewhere for five years in our discipline?

30:30

Can you live somewhere for seven, eight years?

30:32

You know people take a little bit longer.

30:35

You often in history. So you know, and unfortunately, the way that America is set up is that not every place is a place that a black woman can thrive in.

30:45

And so you know, being able to think through what would work best for you, but also, like, what support systems do you need in order to thrive in a place?

30:53

Um, and it will be different for everyone, everyone else, to kind of do that self-introspective work to figure out whether they can, whether they can and want to exist in a place for any period of time.

31:05

Um, but that should definitely 100, as you said be a consideration.

31:09

And like, throw out what these other people are saying about, like, just go where, go anywhere, go to Wyoming or wherever, south Dakota so I now want to talk a little bit about the book that you're working on, um, and before I check out, talk about the book quickly.

31:30

When you said about working like applying while finishing up your dissertation and how that can be really difficult because you don't really know like what the dissertation is kind of like, look like and intake full shape into, that really resonated I didn't apply In my mind.

31:46

I'm like there is no way September of before I finished my dissertation, I can't even imagine like I think I had two chapters done.

31:54

There's no way that I could have gotten the job market. So I'm always in awe of people who can do the dissertation and the market at the same time, because I'm like that is wild y'all.

32:04

But there is a hack. I do know people.

32:06

Depending on how much funding you have, if you got the funding available, I know that people will defend over the summer, so like they'll push their defense date and that essentially gives them an entire year or at least six months to just focus on the job and they're maybe like making a little edit before they deposit the dissertation.

32:24

So that's advice for some people.

32:26

If you have the luxury of time, you're not trying to you don't have to like rush out.

32:29

But anyway, I want to talk about the book and how the book has evolved since the dissertation.

32:35

As someone who's also in the bookwriting process and dissertation to bookwriting process, I'm now just kind of going to get advice for myself here.

32:42

It's going to be a little bit selfish, but what has been working for you in terms of you know thinking through the book, working through the book, and you know thinking about the book as one, a byproduct of your dissertation, but also as, like, an evolution of something different.

32:59

And, chris, do you have any thoughts on that?

33:02

Sure, one piece of advice that I would give is give yourself space.

33:05

So when you defend, put it away.

33:10

Or like after you make your edits and like submitted, put it away.

33:14

So I defended in April.

33:17

I don't think I've looked at my dissertation again, maybe until the fall.

33:21

So give yourself a few months or a couple of months to just separate yourself from it, because I guarantee once you read it again you will come back with new insight.

33:35

And you know dissertation is different genre from a book, right?

33:39

So I think having that space from it really kind of helps you see it with fresh eyes and figure out what the heck you're actually doing.

33:48

I know, specifically for me and my project.

33:52

So I talk about Black Girlhood.

33:55

I look at these organizations, the Girl Scouts, the YWCA.

34:00

I look at the debutant ball tradition, right to help us kind of understand coming of age.

34:06

And with the dissertation it was so I think it was more so heavily focused on the organizations and the leaders and what they're thinking about Black Girls with little snippets of like the Black Girls themselves.

34:20

And I really wanted to remedy that for the book A because I think it makes for a more enjoyable book to read, right when we're hearing about the young people.

34:31

So one thing that I had to do was I expanded my source base.

34:36

So the dissertation was heavily just, you know, archival research.

34:42

For the book I've done oral histories that I think really helped to animate these stories that I'm trying to tell.

34:51

And we get the girls right. So it's not just what people are thinking about Black Girls, how they're talking about Black Girls, but what Black Girls are thinking and experiencing themselves.

35:01

So I think that makes for a better book.

35:06

What's also helpful is just having people read your stuff.

35:09

You know I still participate in writing groups.

35:14

I try to, you know, present at conferences or, you know, even workshops within my department.

35:20

But even if you don't have like an institutional base, just kind of like swapping your work with other people, is so helpful just to get the insight of the insight of someone else.

35:33

That's what's been work, working for me, because I realized that I needed time away from the project.

35:40

But also I needed time to think.

35:43

We underestimate how long it takes to think right and just really like.

35:51

The book for me feels very different than the dissertation.

35:55

I needed that time to think. So I'm grateful that I was able to have those postdocs, because that gave me some extra thinking time.

36:05

Yes, we love a postdoc that actually lets you think and write and not.

36:11

There are some that also like have you doing a whole bunch of the stuff?

36:14

But we love the ones that give you the space and time that's so necessary.

36:18

As a historian, what advice would you give to young scholars and students who are interested in pursuing research in African American history, gender studies and social movements, especially in the current context where a lot of those topics seem to be under attack?

36:37

Sure, I have a couple of pieces of advice.

36:41

So the first one would be to understand why you're doing it, because that's going to sustain you, right?

36:48

If you have this purpose for why you are doing this work, then that will sustain you and even when it's hard, right, you continue going right Because it's this mission that you have.

37:01

So, I think, making sure that it's clear that you have the why, and then also, again, just like researching these places that you want to go right, what are the faculty like?

37:14

What are the students like? What resources does the university have to support you?

37:21

Right, not just in terms of financial support, but emotional or mental support.

37:26

What do they have in place? And thinking about what you need to succeed, and making sure that your institution, if it doesn't have all of those things, it has most of what you need.

37:37

And then just also just remember why your work is important, because, as you mentioned, it's very important in the time and place that we are in right now that we continue doing this work.

37:54

And if you're working with students, like, they need us to do this work right, because I don't think they're getting it elsewhere.

38:02

So those are things that I would keep in mind.

38:08

No, that's really good, Really important, and it's going to be even more important for more of us to do this work.

38:13

I think I said this earlier in the episode, but with the constraints around how education like K-12 education I can talk about certain things I think it's going to be even more paramount for there to be, at the university level, Lots of scholars who are committed to educating probably re-educating college students on American history, which includes women's history, includes African American history, includes history of social uprisings and social movements and all the things that some folks don't want us to talk about in history.

38:50

So, yeah, the work that we're doing is super important.

38:54

Yeah, and they're hungry for it. So I'm teaching a civil rights class this semester and I started off with a questionnaire and I asked students why are you taking this class?

39:07

And so many of them are like oh, we want to learn more than what we learned in high school, right, we don't want this whitewashed version of history.

39:17

And even if you're not working with students but you're engaged with some type of community, they are hungry for that.

39:24

So again, just like, like we're fulfilling a demand and a need.

39:30

So you know, I think that's important to keep in mind.

39:35

Yeah, no, that's a great reminder. So one last question before we start to wrap up are there, rather not, are there?

39:44

I know there are. What are some of the untold stories?

39:46

And, since you mentioned earlier being really interested in history because of the gaps and being able to talk about the gaps that exist in the literature, what are some of the untold stories and some of the gaps and perspectives that you're excited to delve into related to Black history, women's history and especially the 20th century, like African-American and women's history?

40:07

Yeah. So with my research, I talk about coming of age and I'm really interested in decentering trauma and how we understand Black girls coming of age.

40:19

If you've ever read something like Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl or Coming of Age in Mississippi, which is about civil rights activists and moody so much of their coming of age and transition to womanhood is like through this avenue of trauma.

40:37

So, whether that be sexual violence or racial violence, that is what is like facilitating this transition, this abrupt transition to from childhood to becoming this like adult.

40:54

And for me again, there's this question like surely there is more in that's happening outside of trauma, that is shaping how Black girls come of age.

41:06

Right, of course, not dismissing racial and sexual violence right, because that's there.

41:12

But there's so much more that's going on.

41:17

And you have communities that are keenly aware of the ways that, like young Black people can't necessarily enjoy their childhoods and the way that other groups have that privilege to do right, so they're creating spaces like the Girl Scouts or the Y or even something like the Debbie Tomball, which I think is actually a celebration of adolescence, the transition to womanhood.

41:43

They're creating these spaces to do that, so girls can be girls and also be nurtured through this adolescent process, right?

41:55

So for me, what I think I'm doing differently in this untold story that I'm trying to tell is Black female adolescents outside of trauma, right, because you had friends, you had these women that you could work with to kind of help you navigate these life changes.

42:16

So, yeah, so that's the untold story that I want to tell.

42:22

Yes, and I'm so excited that you are telling it Cannot wait to read a book.

42:27

I'm really interested in the Debbie Tomball piece.

42:29

I feel like I've always been interested just in that culture as an immigrant kid.

42:33

That was something that I didn't really realize people did until I got to college and.

42:36

I was like oh why'd y'all do that?

42:38

So I'm curious and so like the history of that and the celebration of that, because I was not at all in my life.

42:44

So, reflecting one more time back on your doctoral journey, what is one thing that you would do differently if you'd have to do it all over again?

42:55

Reflecting on my doctoral journey, one thing I would do differently Take chances.

43:00

So I talked about how I entered graduate school, surrounded by smart people.

43:10

So for me, I barely talked in class and I wish that I would have challenged myself to.

43:20

You know, come to class with one thing to say.

43:23

Also, talk to your professors if you are struggling.

43:27

This is advice I give my students. I'm like I need to follow this.

43:30

But, like, talk to your professors.

43:33

Like hey, like I'm not feeling comfortable with XYZ.

43:37

You know, how can I improve in this class?

43:41

Like I do think there's a bit of embarrassment, particularly when you're a graduate student and you're more of an adult, so it's a little bit harder to ask for help.

43:51

But, you know, ask for help from your professors.

43:54

They're part of their job is to advise and mentor you.

43:58

So you know, ask them for support.

44:03

I think that's something that I would have definitely done differently.

44:08

Yeah, and I'm glad you just reminded us that that's part of their jobs, because I don't think that we often think about that when we're in graduate school.

44:15

I think we're. We think that our perception is that they their jobs.

44:20

You just like hold lecture and like that's it.

44:23

But no like they are actually.

44:25

some percentage of their requirements for tenure are service, and that includes mentoring and developing students.

44:32

So, yes, definitely a good reminder that's part of their job is to support you in and outside of the classroom.

44:37

And then, finally, what is one last piece of advice that you have for current or prospective black women and non-binary doctoral students?

44:47

Sure. So for prospective students, do your research Again when you're researching these programs.

44:56

Do end up the research before you apply.

44:59

Also, make sure that you have multiple people reading your application materials.

45:05

That's really helpful, just to make sure that these statements are as strong as possible.

45:11

That's another piece of advice that I would give for current graduate students.

45:17

I would say just remember that you belong there.

45:23

You were accepted for a reason and the reason is because they think that you are a good fit for their program and you can do the work and do the work successfully.

45:34

So always keep that in mind, because sometimes it does feel like, wow, I must have gotten in here and some type of fluke and, as someone that has been on the other side of admissions, you are not, but hereby a fluke.

45:49

Right? People looked at your application and spoke extensively about it, right?

45:55

So you belong here.

45:57

Yeah, yes, such a good reminder.

45:59

Thank you so much, dr Kerry Aguilamon, for joining us on the Cohort Sisters podcast, so you will definitely stay tuned and stay ready and waiting for the book once it comes out, and we're excited to have you in our community.

46:13

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. This was wonderful.

46:26

Thank you again for listening to this week's episode of the Cohort Sisters podcast.

46:30

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46:44

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46:48

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