0:13

Absolutely , because one

0:15

super tangible thing is that

0:17

, because I had that funding

0:19

monthly and also being in Columbia

0:21

, missouri , be it

0:23

a very to me small

0:26

town because I come from a big city

0:28

, but to them I don't think we consider it a small town

0:30

. But being in a small town

0:32

that is not very diverse

0:34

, like one of the widest places

0:36

that I've lived . It was important

0:38

for me to have moments to be able to just

0:41

escape and go visit my family when I was

0:43

really missing them . So , having that stipend

0:45

and also living

0:47

in a place that was lower

0:50

cost of living , I was able

0:52

to manage paying my rent and still

0:54

be able to save money to leave

0:56

during times when I really felt

0:59

like , okay , I need to get away .

1:03

Welcome back to the Covert Sisters podcast , where we give

1:05

voice to the stories , struggles and successes

1:08

of black women with doctoral degrees . I'm

1:10

your host , dr Yamacola . Our

1:12

guest today is Dr Robina O'Wonga

1:15

, who received a PhD in counseling

1:17

psychology from the University of Missouri

1:19

Columbia . A Maryland native

1:21

with roots in Kenya , dr O'Wonga

1:24

shares her journey as the first in her family

1:26

to achieve a doctoral degree and discusses

1:28

her research on the long term effects of

1:31

childhood trauma . From her unique

1:33

upbringing to her advocacy as

1:35

a black psychologist and executive leadership

1:37

consultant , dr O'Wonga's

1:39

story is one of perseverance and

1:42

empowerment . Join us as we uncover

1:44

the profound connections between adverse

1:46

childhood experiences , ethnic identity

1:49

and psychological well-being . Let's

1:51

dive into this inspiring conversation . Welcome

1:54

to the Covert Sisters podcast , dr Robina

1:57

O'Wonga . It's so exciting

1:59

to have you back in . Connected

2:01

with Covert Sisters . We had you as

2:03

a panelist for our Black History Month

2:05

workshop , talking about how

2:07

you navigated being the first in your family

2:10

to get a doctoral degree . So congratulations

2:12

on that . In and of itself , of

2:15

course , love for you to introduce yourself

2:17

. Tell us a little bit about who you are , where you're from

2:19

and where you currently live now .

2:21

Yeah , thank you . I'm excited to be here , glad

2:24

that I found Covert Sisters while I was in

2:27

grad school and , even though it was towards

2:29

the end of it , it was really helpful connecting

2:31

with a community of other black

2:33

women scholars . So

2:35

I'm Robina O'Wonga . I

2:37

am , I guess , like I have

2:40

, a border crossing upbringing . I consider

2:42

myself a Marri Kenyan in that I was

2:44

born in Baltimore , I grew up in Kenya

2:46

, east Africa , for like

2:48

the first six formative years of

2:50

my childhood and then I came back

2:52

to the states where I grew up , in Prince George's County

2:55

, maryland , where we found the birth

2:57

to it as PG . And

3:00

I'd also like to know is that Maryland

3:02

is occupies like ancestral

3:04

lands of the Patuxent , piscataway

3:07

, susquehannock , and I know

3:09

a few others that I'm probably forgetting

3:11

Indigenous nations . So

3:14

yeah , I grew up around here , I went to

3:16

University of Maryland for undergrad and

3:19

I studied psychology in French and

3:22

I did some international

3:24

studies as well . And I went

3:26

to France to study abroad

3:29

in Nice for like half a

3:31

year and that was a great experience

3:33

.

3:35

I'm really jealous because I like

3:38

when one regret about college was that I didn't do

3:40

study abroad I know this is not a podcast about college

3:42

life at all but like if I could do it again

3:44

. I'm like I wish I had studied abroad

3:46

and like lived a romantic life

3:49

in France . I took French in high school . So

3:51

I'm like , oh , I wish I had done . That's what I should have done

3:53

, instead of I don't know what I was doing in college .

3:56

Yeah , that was one thing that I was , like really adamant

3:58

about wanting to do .

4:00

So , yeah , good for you , good for you and

4:02

also , of course , shared identities with

4:05

you know , being you called border crossing

4:07

. I like I haven't heard that term before , but I like

4:09

that term , having a foot in

4:11

two different places , and

4:13

obviously I'm like , not obviously

4:16

, but Kenya has a huge part

4:18

of my life since my husband's

4:20

Kenyan . We've lived there for a while trying

4:22

to get ourselves back there . So

4:25

long story short , you're my sister

4:27

, my Kenyan sister

4:29

and excited to be in community with you today

4:31

, so can you talk to us about what your doctoral

4:34

degree is in and what you studied

4:36

.

4:37

Yeah , of course , and I will say the phrase

4:39

border crossing . I got that from Dr Ty

4:41

Douglas , who is one of my mentors while I was at

4:43

Mizzou , and he uses that a lot in his

4:45

research because he calls himself

4:47

a border crossing brother . So

4:51

but yeah , I got my doctorate

4:53

in counseling psychology and

4:56

I went to Mizzou University of Missouri

4:58

. That's the flagship university

5:00

for the institution .

5:01

Yeah , and

5:05

what did you research ? What was your dissertation on ?

5:09

Oh gosh , like I

5:11

feel like I did . That was only last year and

5:13

I already kind of am like past

5:15

that . But yeah , I actually did a topic

5:17

that was pretty close to my heart so

5:20

I'll share like the main question and

5:22

what I explored and then like my reasoning

5:25

behind it . So I was

5:27

, and still am , curious about the impact

5:29

of people's experiences during their childhood

5:31

on their development across the lifespan

5:34

. So I was specifically

5:36

looking at adverse childhood experiences

5:39

, or ACEs , which are categorized

5:41

as abuse , neglect , household

5:44

dysfunction . And that was

5:46

after I saw this TED Talk by Dr

5:48

Nadine Burke Harris . She's a former

5:50

surgeon general for

5:53

the state of California and she

5:55

heard TED Talk was on how childhood trauma affects

5:58

health across the lifespan . So

6:00

from my dissertation I was specifically interested

6:02

in the relationship among

6:04

ACEs , ethnic identity

6:06

and psychological sense of community or

6:09

our sense of belonging to like a specific

6:11

entity , and how

6:13

that all connects to our

6:15

mental health . So like satisfaction

6:18

with life , positive mood for

6:20

black emerging adults in the US . And

6:23

then the reason that I really wanted to embark on that

6:25

is because through , like the studies I

6:27

was reading , I , you

6:29

know , found out and you know , obviously knew

6:31

through lived experiences that it's a thing . But the

6:34

research was also showing that exposure

6:37

to traumatic incidents is

6:40

pretty common , especially like

6:42

in the US . So like two thirds of people experience

6:44

a traumatic event during their lifetime , and

6:48

the CDC also had a study where

6:50

they were . They showed that 60%

6:52

of US residents reported at least

6:55

one adverse childhood experience and

6:57

about 10% of the population reported

7:00

four or more . And then I knew

7:02

, like through looking at more data

7:04

, that black people were at a way

7:06

higher risk than other racial

7:09

ethnic groups for experiencing

7:11

ACEs , which I'm sure you know as

7:13

, like a historian of race and medicine

7:16

that in a society where systemic

7:18

oppression and structural racism

7:20

is prevalent and pervasive

7:22

, that black people are at

7:25

a disproportionately higher rate to be

7:27

impacted by trauma and

7:29

, from my case , specifically , adverse

7:31

childhood experiences .

7:33

Yeah , absolutely . So what point

7:35

? Growing up did you become interested

7:37

in psychology ? And then

7:39

can you talk us through the decision

7:41

to specialize in counseling psychology

7:44

, maybe versus clinical or developmental

7:46

psychology or all the other versions

7:48

of psychology ? We'd love to kind of know , like

7:50

, what brought you to this ? I

7:53

understand the research , but what brought you to the field in

7:55

general ?

7:56

Yeah , I would say like the first

7:58

maybe formative memory

8:01

or around the time where I had that first

8:03

formative memory of like this

8:05

is a space that I want to go into was

8:08

high school , and initially

8:10

I was actually really interested in forensic

8:12

psychology . You know , those shows that we see

8:15

about like criminal

8:17

minds , law and order

8:20

, how do people think and how does their

8:22

thinking impact their behavior , mood

8:26

, all those things . So that was my initial interest

8:28

in it and I was like , well , I want to be like the agent

8:30

and kind of look into that stuff . And

8:32

then it got a little bit deeper for me where

8:34

so around the time I was in middle school , Kenya

8:38

had gone through a lot of civil unrest

8:40

with the elections that had gone on during that time

8:43

, and I had family

8:45

who ended up traveling

8:47

to different areas outside of Kenya

8:50

to seek asylum , and some family came here to

8:52

the US . At that time , obviously

8:54

I knew it was like a huge thing , but I

8:56

hadn't , you know , I didn't really have the mental capacity

8:59

to actually conceptualize

9:02

what was going on . So when I got to high

9:04

school and I was thinking more about that and

9:06

I got to take a psychology class in high

9:08

school , I was like , oh , this is really interesting

9:11

. And that kind of sparked my

9:13

interest of like , okay , how is this trauma

9:15

that people experience at such young ages

9:18

Like ? What does that do to us

9:20

growing up ? How

9:22

does that impact the way that people are

9:24

within their families ? I also

9:26

at the time was like it

9:28

had family members who had like mental illnesses

9:31

which I didn't really know about

9:33

at the time . But I was like , okay , there's something going

9:35

on here and I just wanted to know

9:37

more about it . So I

9:40

ended up in , you know , experiencing

9:42

all that and then taking the psychology

9:44

class in high school I was

9:46

like I think this is what I wanna measure

9:48

in because it's interesting to me and

9:51

I wanna continue to learn

9:53

more about this and

9:55

what I can do to contribute to helping

9:57

. So at first I actually

9:59

at the beginning of high school , I was like I wanna

10:01

be a lawyer because I wanna advocate for

10:03

people in immigrant communities

10:06

in that specific way . But

10:08

then I realized that as

10:11

a lawyer I wouldn't be able to do some

10:13

of the healing help work that I really

10:15

wanted to do to have a better

10:17

impact .

10:17

So yeah , yeah

10:19

, Thank you so much for sharing that you

10:22

know , as someone who also comes from a country

10:24

that is plagued with political

10:30

trauma . I think , that it's so

10:32

important to for

10:34

people to just kind of

10:36

think about the different ways in which not only

10:39

things that they experience , but things that their

10:41

families experiencing even your extended

10:43

families experiencing can still very

10:45

much inform how you move through

10:47

the world and form and shape what your

10:49

interests are , but also ways in which you

10:51

need to heal . Yeah , yeah

10:54

, I'm

10:57

just going to complete that .

10:58

For interaction , there's a lot to be said of like

11:00

our countries were both , you

11:02

know , formerly British colonies . So there's

11:04

a lot of like the vestiges of

11:07

that . You know , trauma that comes up for

11:09

how the countries are present

11:11

day .

11:13

Right , right , and like not being

11:15

able to under , like not understanding

11:17

all of that history when you're a child . Yeah

11:19

, like think , as we continue to grow older

11:22

and it becomes , like , more present and we

11:24

are still seeing the ramifications of that

11:26

. It is incredibly traumatizing

11:28

, even though , like we ourselves

11:31

, we're not necessarily under colonial rule , but like

11:33

we can , you still see the impact , you still

11:35

see the residues

11:38

of colonization on

11:40

us . So it's like it is really . It

11:45

is troublesome . Yeah , 100% yeah . So

11:48

let's talk about your doctoral program

11:50

. Why did you go to

11:53

Mizzou ? Why was

11:55

that the right program for you ? How did you end up

11:57

there ?

11:58

Yeah , oh yeah , you did ask me why I chose Calving

12:00

Ritz clinical . So

12:04

when I was in undergrad , my

12:06

semester that I studied abroad

12:09

was the

12:12

last semester of my

12:14

junior year and while I was abroad

12:16

, I remember , like you know , getting

12:19

emails from like advisors being like

12:21

, oh you know , sign up for your next classes

12:23

. And during that time a lot of my peers

12:26

were solidifying

12:29

internships during the summer for

12:31

their respective fields and stuff . And

12:33

you know , I was abroad , so I

12:35

wasn't , I wasn't really thinking about that at the time

12:37

until that started coming out . So then I

12:40

remember having a friend who

12:42

I used to do I used to work as a community

12:45

assistant , which is like the people who sit

12:47

at the front desk and work with the RA

12:49

to give you the keys and make any emergency

12:51

phone calls for students , and one of

12:53

my coworkers at the time had

12:56

mentioned that they were working on some research

12:58

project and I was like , oh , that's interesting , sounds

13:00

like a lot of work , like , tell me more

13:02

about that . And they were

13:04

part of the McNair program

13:07

, and so they told me about the McNair program

13:09

and then I ended up being

13:12

, you know , like slightly interested at the time

13:14

, but I didn't really have any true like

13:16

research interests . I hadn't had much research

13:18

experience but whenever

13:20

I was thinking back to what I could do

13:22

for the summer , I remember I remember them saying

13:24

like it's a summer program , so I

13:26

ended up reaching out to

13:29

the program and applying

13:31

. I ended up getting accepted

13:33

and so that , I think , was like a really

13:35

pivotal moment for me because that

13:38

gave me a chance

13:40

to have a summer research experience

13:42

within the credibility of like

13:44

a McNair program that was reputable

13:47

. And then , when it came time to

13:49

apply to programs , the program

13:51

director , dr Rhea Roper-Ned she's

13:54

a black woman proud of Howard

13:56

University alum she pushed all

13:58

of us to apply to a certain number

14:00

of doctoral programs and

14:02

so I ended up applying and

14:04

the program actually paid for

14:07

like a whatever number

14:09

she was telling us to apply for . They paid for those

14:12

application fees , so that

14:14

was very helpful at the time . So I

14:16

ended up going

14:18

to one of the professors in the psychology

14:21

department I never had a class with her

14:23

, dr Karen O'Brien . I saw

14:25

that she had a paper

14:27

on the outside of her door where she was

14:30

like this is for office hours . So I

14:32

put my name down for an office hour . I

14:35

went to the office hour and I'm sure she was

14:37

like who are you ?

14:39

Like I know , I have a lot of students .

14:40

But she seemed like the type of professor who knows

14:43

, like , who her students are by name and stuff

14:45

. So I just told her I'm like , when

14:47

I was doing some research for you

14:49

know , mcnair , I saw that you work

14:51

with you've studied like

14:53

women who experienced domestic violence

14:55

and I'm interested in , you know

14:57

something that has to do with like trauma

15:00

and how that impacts people and so can

15:02

I talk to you about like my interest in

15:04

doctoral programs and stuff . And so

15:07

she literally like took a yellow

15:09

post-it note and wrote like

15:11

maybe six or seven programs on there

15:14

with program directors

15:16

and faculty that she knew like she

15:18

could vouch for and was like reach

15:20

out to these programs and you

15:23

know , like that's a good starting point for you

15:25

. And before she even did that , she

15:27

actually asked me like what are your interests

15:30

? Like why are you thinking about going into psychology

15:32

? And based on what I described

15:34

like giving her the whole background of like

15:36

what I'm interested in , you

15:39

know , trauma I had done like a paper

15:42

on that child soldiers in Sierra Leone

15:44

and how that was impacting them she was like

15:47

counseling psychology seems like

15:49

a better fit for you because those

15:51

programs typically have more of a

15:53

social justice , multicultural emphasis

15:55

than clinical psychology programs . So

15:58

that was kind of the key thing

16:00

that pushed me towards counseling versus clinical

16:03

. And so then I applied to those programs

16:05

and University of Missouri

16:07

being one of them is where

16:09

her former advisor

16:12

was the program director at and

16:15

at the time she was not accepting students

16:17

, dr Lisa Flores . But she

16:19

emailed me back and let me know

16:21

that there are these other professors who

16:23

have adjacent research

16:26

interests to yours and they could still

16:28

mentor you through the program . So I

16:30

applied to like nine programs

16:32

. I got interviews at three

16:34

and when I

16:37

went to do like that program specifically

16:39

, it just felt like a really warm program

16:41

. The way that she was leading

16:43

it at the time . It just

16:46

felt like a good fit for me and

16:48

also other

16:50

like things that let me to feel

16:52

like I divinely , that was like the divine

16:55

order for me

16:57

to be at that place .

16:59

Right , right . But also like shout

17:01

out to you for being like . You know I

17:03

wanna do this . I need to figure out who's doing it . So

17:06

I'm gonna sign up for this random person's office hours and

17:10

get some FaceTime with them , because

17:12

I think that sometimes we can kind of get in our head

17:14

and be like , well , I don't wanna bother someone

17:16

. They don't know me . But you

17:19

never know who is willing or able

17:21

to connect you and to help you if you don't ask

17:23

. So I think , that is a really great . I'm

17:26

so excited that you shared that testimony

17:28

, really , and the testament to your perseverance

17:33

and your determination that you , once

17:35

you figured out what you wanted to do , you figured out

17:37

a way to find the resources that you needed

17:39

to get there . So shout outs

17:41

to you for that . I hope other people kind of take that with

17:43

them and are inspired

17:45

to not be shy about

17:48

reaching out to folks , networking

17:50

, talking to people , because you honestly never know

17:52

who knows who who can refer you to

17:54

wear , et cetera . So

17:57

shout outs to you for that .

17:58

Yeah , and I will . I'll talk to you about your time .

18:00

Oh , go ahead .

18:01

I will say that that was a really key piece

18:03

because I almost didn't reach out

18:05

to those people and even like

18:07

getting into the McNear program was a huge confidence

18:10

boost for me because I

18:12

literally failed my very first

18:15

psychology class . I had to get

18:17

like I think at the time Maryland had like

18:19

freshman forgiveness or something

18:21

like that where I had to retake my

18:23

psychology class and I had to retake

18:25

another course . That was like probability

18:28

, which were two major courses that were needed for

18:30

me to actually continue on

18:32

in the major . Otherwise , if I didn't pass

18:34

them , I would have had to select

18:36

another major . And I remember

18:38

when I was like asking about

18:40

programs , there was a professor , like pretty

18:42

prominent in the field actually , who

18:45

ended up looking at my GPA and at the

18:47

time I had taken the GRE as well and

18:49

he was like , yeah , I'm not sure that you're gonna

18:51

get into programs with

18:54

these grades in , like the main

18:56

courses , like major courses and

18:59

this GRE . So you might wanna do

19:01

a little bit more like post back

19:03

and then try again .

19:08

Little Zihino that was not your calling

19:11

that's wild

19:13

, but there's actually one of the very first

19:15

recordings that we did on the podcast

19:17

, dr Mercy

19:19

Agyampong I

19:22

hope I'm recollecting her last name properly

19:24

, but she also spoke quite

19:26

at length about I think

19:28

we had it even in the title . I think she had like a two

19:30

point something GPA when she graduated college

19:33

and then still went on to get her doctoral degree

19:35

and it was such a

19:37

testament of the fact that , like when , the

19:40

grades and assessments are

19:42

not a measure of intelligence , they're

19:44

not a measure of willpower , they're

19:47

not a measure of research ability . So

19:49

sometimes those can also

19:51

limit us , but we have to be able to push forward

19:53

and not let what's on paper

19:55

, or what someone tells us is on paper

19:58

, to stop us from pursuing our

20:00

academic dreams and goals , if that's what we really

20:02

want . So , thank you also for sharing that

20:04

additional context as well . So

20:07

, when you were at Mizzou

20:09

, talk to us about some of the successes

20:11

and some of the challenges . What were the highlights

20:14

of the program ? What were some of the more

20:16

rougher patches of the program ?

20:19

Yeah , one of my highlights has to do with

20:21

, like , my initial , like entry

20:23

into the program . So

20:25

, in terms of finding funding , I remember when

20:28

I was in undergrad here in grad , students

20:30

say like , oh , you shouldn't have to pay for you

20:32

know , like doctor , doctoral program

20:34

. At the time I wasn't really paying attention

20:37

so I'm like I didn't really know what they meant . I

20:39

just knew that they were TAs and they were getting

20:42

either paid or you know something for it . And

20:44

so , like one of the other things

20:47

that helped me know that it was just divine orchestration

20:49

for me to be there is that when

20:52

I was interviewing for the programs that I interviewed

20:55

for , I was pretty transparent with them about

20:57

letting them know that finances

20:59

is going to be a big barrier to me pursuing it

21:01

. And I remember even telling

21:04

, like folks during my time at

21:06

the interview at Mizzou , that if I don't get funding

21:08

, like this is just not something I'd be able to pursue

21:11

right now . And so my

21:14

advisor at the time wasn't

21:16

obviously like I was interviewing with different people , but

21:18

my person who had accepted

21:21

me as an advisor , dr Christopher Slayton . He reached

21:23

out to me and was like hey , can

21:25

you just like rework your

21:28

personal statement to

21:30

be more specific to this

21:32

fellowship and then I'll submit it

21:34

for you I was still in undergrad

21:36

at the time I'll submit it for you and

21:38

get back to you on the results

21:41

of that . So reworked

21:43

it , literally sent it to him like maybe within

21:45

the same week , and then

21:47

on my birthday that

21:50

year so yeah , march 17

21:52

, 2016 , he

21:55

reached out to me and was like you

21:57

were awarded the fellowship . It was

21:59

the Gusty Reggio fellowship

22:01

. It's supposed to acknowledge the first

22:03

black graduate student that Mizzou had

22:06

and I was given that fellowship that

22:08

was gonna cover my funding for five years

22:10

and give me what's

22:12

it called like a stipend for nine

22:14

months out of the calendar

22:17

year . And that was

22:19

really a highlight because it I

22:21

mean I still have to do assistantship jobs , like

22:24

during my time in the program , but

22:26

I didn't have to worry about how

22:28

my tuition was gonna be paid and I ended

22:31

up graduating . I have loans from undergrad

22:33

, but I ended up graduating from

22:35

the PhD program with no loans

22:38

and no stress in terms

22:40

of like how I'm gonna make that up .

22:43

Yeah , that is a huge success

22:46

. Yes , yeah , so how

22:48

did that kind of motivate you , even

22:50

through the challenges , as you start to think about

22:52

some of the challenges , just knowing that

22:55

your advisor advocated

22:58

for you to get this funding , to get this

23:00

additional funding , and then having like the

23:02

weight lifted up of your shoulders about how you're

23:04

gonna pay for the program .

23:05

Yeah .

23:06

Was that one of the things that helped kind of shoulder you on

23:08

through some of the lower points ?

23:11

Yeah , absolutely , because one

23:13

like super tangible thing is that

23:16

, because I had that funding like

23:18

monthly and also being in Columbia

23:20

, missouri , be it

23:22

a very to me small

23:24

town because I come from a big city

23:26

, but to them I don't think we consider it a small town

23:29

. but being in a small town that

23:31

is not very diverse , like pretty like

23:33

one of the widest places that I've lived

23:36

. It was important for me to have

23:38

moments to be able to just like escape

23:40

and go visit my family when I was really missing

23:42

them . So , having that stipend

23:44

and also living

23:46

in a place that was like lower

23:49

cost of living , I was able to manage like

23:51

paying my rent and still be able

23:53

to save money to leave during

23:56

times when I really felt like , okay , I need to get away

23:58

. So I was able to go home during

24:01

the winter holidays

24:03

. I sometimes would be able to leave and

24:05

go visit , like my cousin who also lives in the Midwest

24:07

during like the fall break , just

24:10

having time to actually leave

24:12

. And that was possible because I had

24:14

some of that funding . Like I know people who

24:16

were not able to leave as

24:18

often as they wanted to because they

24:20

didn't have that type of funding , and

24:23

so that's something that I'm really grateful for . And

24:26

then also just like having the mental capacity

24:29

to like handle

24:31

everything else that was going on , from

24:34

research to for

24:36

counseling psychology . We have to do clinical

24:39

work throughout the time of our program . Except

24:42

for me , my first year , I didn't have to do that because

24:44

I came straight out of undergrad so my

24:46

first year was just classes and work . But

24:49

it really takes a toll on students

24:52

to be doing clinical work and giving

24:54

therapy or doing assessments in hospital settings

24:57

and then having to switch gears to go

24:59

to class and then switch gears to go to work . So

25:02

, knowing that I really didn't have

25:04

to work an extra job like some

25:06

people did , or I didn't have

25:08

to really worry too much about that

25:11

, I was able to spend that

25:13

very limited mental capacity

25:16

on those other things that

25:18

were required .

25:20

Yeah , I'm glad you brought

25:22

that up , because because

25:25

I think that when we often

25:27

for me , even myself , like when I think

25:30

about the additional

25:32

burdens and

25:34

the additional labor that black women often

25:36

take on in order to complete their doctoral

25:38

degrees a lot of us work

25:40

through the program and I've always thought about that

25:42

as you're working and so

25:45

because you need finances , because

25:47

maybe you don't have funding , that takes away

25:49

time from you to be able to do your

25:51

work , and so maybe that means that you take a little bit longer

25:53

. But I've actually never made the connection

25:55

between the extra

25:58

work and the mental capacity . So

26:00

I'm really I'm glad that you brought that up , because there is like a

26:03

mental fitness that you need to persevere

26:05

in a doctoral program and if

26:08

you're navigating a lot of other different

26:10

things , then you only

26:12

have so much mental fitness , you only

26:14

have so much mental energy . And

26:16

if you're kind of like chopping at it , chopping

26:19

it up into different pieces , so that you can have a little

26:21

bit of mental energy for work and have a little bit

26:23

of mental capacity for your life

26:25

at home and like maybe you're taking care of an

26:27

ailing parent or a dependent or something

26:29

like that , so I've actually

26:31

I've just always been thinking about it , working

26:34

outside of a program as like a financial cost

26:36

, and you've just helped me think about it as

26:38

a mental cost too .

26:39

So , like . I'm being enlightened . I'm being

26:41

enlightened . What's that ?

26:43

that's a black pack . Yes

26:46

, yeah , but I feel like we talk about it financially but not

26:48

emotionally or mentally . But it is both

26:51

an emotional and mental tax as well as a

26:53

financial tax . Yeah

26:56

, that was my boy . Okay , maybe other people will already

26:58

knew that , but that was just new for me . But who's

27:01

a parent ?

27:01

there , I guess , is more so putting words to

27:03

that .

27:05

Yes exactly . Yeah

27:08

, did you have any black female mentors ? I

27:10

?

27:10

was like everybody talk about challenges , oh challenges

27:13

. Yeah , if you

27:15

want to , I'll just highlight like a few

27:17

, because I feel like it

27:19

is something that I don't

27:21

know if at the time of my interview

27:23

a lot of students spoke about

27:25

it , because when I was starting my program

27:27

they had black women before

27:30

me in the program . But at the time that I interviewed

27:32

and for my first year

27:34

or two there , I was the only black woman

27:36

in the program . There were black men there who

27:38

you know , were like brothers

27:40

to me and helped to kind of , you

27:44

know , take me along . But

27:46

when I , yeah , first interviewed , like

27:48

I felt the warmth of the program . The professors

27:51

, the program director were very

27:54

kind and

27:56

all . But I will say that just

27:59

being in , I don't know , I feel like

28:01

it's the doctoral experience

28:03

to wear for black folks . We're sometimes

28:06

taken to these towns that

28:08

are outside of our comfort zone

28:10

, outside of our communities

28:13

that we're used to being around , you

28:15

know , very ivory tower space

28:17

, like it's just . That is something

28:20

that I don't think I was as prepared

28:22

for and so finding

28:24

community and cultivating community during that

28:26

time was really important and the isolation

28:29

that I felt , and I know that other

28:31

graduate students felt , was very different

28:33

to what it was to be an undergrad

28:36

. Like an undergrad , you go . you're in this like

28:38

utopia , away

28:40

from you , know your you know , your

28:43

family that you're born into or whoever

28:45

is taken care of you , and you feel like you have this

28:47

freedom to do whatever and enjoy life

28:49

. And in grad school it's like , okay , you have

28:51

these commitments and even though I had a

28:54

fellowship , my assistantship is like

28:56

they were working me for the money they're giving me you know

28:58

. So it's not like I had as much free

29:00

time on my hand to do a bunch

29:03

of things , but yeah , I

29:05

had to be very intentional about how

29:07

I was spending my time

29:10

outside of the

29:12

school , related stuff so that I could make sure

29:14

that my mental health was still in

29:17

check and that I still was

29:19

able to , you know , like move along

29:21

the program with some sort of sanity . And

29:24

then it wasn't my experience , but I know

29:26

during our program there was so much restructuring

29:28

that happened to where I had

29:31

to step into like a student

29:33

advocacy role and start

29:35

to like speak up and demand certain things

29:37

for myself and other students in

29:39

the program , and that's something that

29:41

is not accounted for

29:44

in terms of like to pay or

29:46

, I don't know , acknowledgement or anything

29:48

like that , and it is something that's going to

29:50

, you know , continue in different

29:53

programs

29:55

, because once you kind of leave the work

29:58

that graduate students do , not much of

30:00

it unless it gets written into like the university policy

30:02

, not much of it is very sustainable

30:05

. So there was a lot of times where

30:07

I feel like the work you were doing was kind

30:09

of helpful in a way , but it almost is like

30:11

it went to waste a little bit because

30:13

the powers

30:15

at the institution they weren't

30:18

as intentional or

30:21

they didn't care as much to kind of keep that stuff

30:23

going . So finding community

30:25

really was like the main way that

30:27

could help me to stay sane and to continue

30:29

to keep going and feel like , okay , what I'm experiencing

30:32

is valid . But I can't

30:34

let that hold me down , because I

30:36

came here for a reason and y'all are

30:38

not going to stop me from , you know , getting

30:40

out of here with my degree .

30:44

Absolutely , absolutely . So

30:46

when you finish your doctoral degree

30:49

, can you talk to us about kind of how you

30:51

were thinking about your post career plans

30:54

and then kind of lead us into the

30:56

thought process as you were wrapping up to what you're doing

30:59

?

30:59

now , yeah . So with

31:01

counseling psychology typically

31:03

, yeah , like the typical

31:05

career trajectory is you graduate

31:08

, you do an internship

31:11

which is like a year of

31:13

solely clinical work Some people might still

31:15

be working for the dissertation during that time

31:17

and then you

31:20

go on to do postdoc , and postdoc

31:22

would either be clinical or for some people they do transition

31:24

into research postdocs , but

31:27

that kind of becomes the standard Around

31:29

. Like my third year of the program

31:31

I realized that I

31:34

didn't want to do clinical work full time

31:36

because of how emotionally taxing

31:38

it was and I knew I wanted

31:40

to do other stuff . Like I

31:43

just , yeah , there's a lot

31:45

of things that I feel like I enjoy doing

31:47

and want to be able to use my degree

31:49

and expertise and like natural , you know

31:51

, like God-given gifts , to contribute

31:53

to the world . And so one of those things

31:56

was I wanted to do consulting

31:58

, which encompasses like organizational

32:00

or leadership consulting , and

32:03

so I took a class , an

32:05

industrial organizational psychology

32:07

class , which was required in our program

32:09

. But it

32:11

kind of perked my ears

32:13

to like , oh , this is kind of interesting , I want to do

32:15

more of this . And then I had a chance

32:17

to be part of a project within the university

32:21

system where we were sourcing

32:23

vendors for executive

32:27

coaches to come in and support

32:29

faculty development at the provost

32:32

and dean level and through

32:34

that I was like , wow , there's really ways that

32:36

I can use the skills that I'm learning

32:38

as a counseling psychologist to

32:41

impact folks

32:44

in almost like a

32:46

larger scale . Because with counseling my thing

32:48

was okay , I can support individuals . At

32:51

the time I was doing a lot of work with children and

32:54

they have like practically

32:56

zero autonomy over their

32:58

lives , and so it was really sad for me to know

33:01

with these kids at school

33:03

, with these kids , you know , when they come into the hospital

33:05

clinic setting , but they still go home

33:08

to the environments that I'm doing research

33:10

about and there's not much that can

33:12

be done . So I'm still working on

33:14

like how to kind of have an impact

33:16

in that way by trying

33:18

to get my licensure so that I can still do some

33:20

clinical work part-time . But

33:23

during that time I realized like I want to work

33:25

with folks who have power

33:28

to impact systems

33:30

and impact more groups

33:33

of people , and for me it looked like

33:35

working with organizations and

33:37

leaders who are able to impact

33:40

like policy and stuff like that , because then

33:42

that has more of a trickle down

33:44

effect than working at the individual

33:47

level , and so that's kind of how

33:49

my interest started

33:51

to bud for consulting and then I

33:53

ended up connecting

33:56

with one of the people who I

33:58

had connected with originally

34:01

from that program of executive coaching

34:03

and I reached out to her just for , like , an

34:05

informational interview . And

34:07

she happened to be like , oh , we have this

34:10

program or we have there's

34:12

this company that I do some contract

34:14

work with and they

34:16

have an opening , like I'm going to give

34:18

you the information for their , the

34:20

partners , and reach out to them

34:23

. And you know , see

34:25

, like go from there . And so I reached out

34:27

to them , she connected me with them via email

34:29

and I my first

34:31

meeting with them apparently was like I guess , the

34:33

first interview , so I did that and

34:36

, yeah , that's where I'm working now .

34:40

Great , so you do consulting

34:42

with this one company . Can

34:45

you talk about how your degree

34:48

and the research skills that you built through

34:50

the degree and it like shows up in your day-to-day

34:53

job .

34:53

Yeah , yeah

34:56

, so the company is a leadership consultancy

34:58

. We do like a number of different things

35:01

. On my end the talent

35:03

management side of things A

35:05

big bulk of my work is

35:07

assessing

35:12

, helping organizations to assess and

35:14

select talent for

35:16

their organization , and then at some point

35:19

we also help to develop them

35:21

and help organizations forgot

35:23

how they can retain some of that exceptional

35:25

talent , and so what that looks like is

35:27

they do the assessments and

35:30

I'm one of the people who interprets

35:32

that . So in my training

35:35

from Mizzou

35:38

, I worked within a

35:40

hospital clinic setting where

35:42

I was doing assessments for parents

35:44

who were bringing their kiddos and or caregivers who

35:47

were bringing their kiddos and for assessments of

35:49

autism , other neuro

35:51

developmental assessments , adhd stuff

35:53

like that . So the basis of

35:56

the assessment work and doing

35:58

like the interviews with the families

36:00

that is something that I still carry

36:03

over to now because it helps with my

36:05

interpretation . It helps when I have

36:07

the interviews with these C-suite

36:10

leaders and just getting

36:12

information out of them and trying to bring

36:14

the assessment data to life . So I still

36:16

use those same skills and actually

36:18

I feel like , even though I didn't get my PhD in

36:20

IO or industrial

36:23

organizational psychology , the skill

36:25

set that I have as from

36:27

the counseling psychology side is one that

36:30

has been really helpful for me with

36:32

the perspective that I bring to the organization

36:34

and the work that I do now

36:37

.

36:41

Did you feel like ? Was there a point where

36:43

you said , no

36:46

, I know I'm not gonna do clinical work , I'm

36:49

not interested in teaching or additional research

36:51

, I'm gonna like look for a

36:54

non-academic , non-clinical

36:56

role ? Or do you feel like it kind of

36:58

naturally happened in that you were connected

37:01

in this way to this company ? Or was there a moment

37:03

where you were like absolutely not not

37:05

going to even look ? Did you look at any

37:07

academic jobs ? Did you like poke ? Do you

37:09

do any searches for any kind of clinical jobs ? Kind

37:12

of curious as to how you

37:14

were thinking about your career trajectory .

37:16

Yeah , all throughout I was

37:18

always open to all academic

37:21

, clinical and then when consulting came

37:23

in the mix around my second or third year , I

37:25

was open to that . I feel

37:27

like over time

37:29

of like doing the student advocacy

37:32

work that I was doing , my

37:34

openness to remaining in academia

37:36

started to decrease

37:40

because of all of the politics

37:42

that I was seeing in the space and

37:44

I was like I just don't want to be

37:46

a part of this you know game

37:49

for real , like I want to do the research

37:51

but I don't want to have to deal

37:53

with all this extra stuff . So , yeah

37:56

, my interest in that started to decrease

37:58

around , like you

38:00

know , towards the end of my tenure

38:04

and like as a doctoral student . And

38:06

then the clinical piece of it . That's

38:09

something that I'm still interested in and I actually

38:11

, when I was applying

38:14

for different places I applied to

38:16

, so I ended up applying to the place that I'm at now

38:18

and then I applied to three

38:20

clinical postdocs and I

38:22

was accepted into two of them . I actually had accepted

38:25

one of them and thankfully

38:27

, I was pretty honest with them in the interview that

38:29

I also have an interest in consulting

38:32

and long-term like want to do this and

38:34

do clinical work on the side . So I

38:37

still , you know , left that in on

38:39

my good term , but I did end up having

38:41

to go back to them and let them know like my

38:44

kind of like dream opportunity

38:46

opened up and I really want to take this

38:48

and I'm still , you know , gonna

38:50

pursue getting my psychology

38:52

licensure so that I can practice as

38:54

a licensed psychologist . And you

38:57

know I plan to reach back out to them at some point

38:59

because they were it

39:01

was like a joint group

39:04

practice that they created two black

39:06

women who I really admire

39:08

the work that they do . So , yeah , over time

39:11

, like the academic one

39:13

decreased , I still do want to do

39:15

research at some point , but just not within

39:17

the academic setting . I know that there are

39:20

organizations that do community-based

39:22

research and I think

39:24

I would feel more

39:27

that's like that , aligned with my values yeah

39:32

, totally makes sense .

39:34

So , since you currently work with developing

39:36

leaders and executive talent

39:38

, you know how do you ensure that your

39:40

consulting work is culturally sustainable

39:43

and contributes to global black liberation

39:45

. Do you encounter any

39:48

black leaders in your client work and

39:50

, if not , how are you kind of making

39:52

sure that you're inserting ideas

39:54

of cultural competency and

39:57

anti-racism into the work

39:59

.

40:00

That is a really tough one because

40:02

, by virtue of how

40:04

like white and patriarchal

40:07

the spaces are , I don't interact

40:10

with a lot of black leaders , and

40:12

part of that is , you

40:14

know , as I'm also learning a lot more

40:16

about the IEL space now that I'm in

40:19

it and looking into the research

40:21

, in that there are a lot of companies

40:23

that have what they call like adverse

40:25

impact . There's not you know the number

40:27

of black folks that interview versus what they

40:29

have in the organization does not

40:31

match up . And that's something

40:33

that , in a way

40:35

, really aligns with some of the research that

40:38

I did during my doctoral program

40:40

of you know , for more

40:42

of a clinical standpoint of wanting

40:45

to do work with

40:47

relations

40:49

like of ongoing , like healing

40:51

, and culturally relevant and sustainable , like

40:55

interventions for black folks that contribute

40:57

to black liberation . But

40:59

within this space , I think I'm still

41:02

trying to actually figure out what that

41:04

can look like . Some of the ways

41:06

that that has come up so far is like

41:08

with the assessment work that we do

41:10

. There's a lot of talk

41:12

about how valid

41:16

not necessarily how valid they are , but the

41:19

impact that it has for

41:21

black people when

41:23

organizations are using assessments

41:25

that maybe are not fully

41:27

vetted in terms of how

41:29

they , how much they've been tested on black

41:32

folks and , yeah

41:34

, I feel like I'm forgetting

41:36

the words I'm trying to use like the impact it has

41:38

on them . But that's something that , yeah

41:40

, has come up in conversation and

41:43

for the work that I do and the

41:45

person who's like my direct leader we

41:47

have a lot of conversations about that , because

41:49

there are times where I've even noticed

41:52

with some of our international candidates

41:54

. Like the assessments that we use , we

41:57

thankfully have

41:59

us as humans behind the scenes

42:02

looking through the data and actually

42:04

writing the reports

42:06

and having the conversations with the companies

42:08

, so it's not just like an AI

42:10

generated thing that's going out to them , but I'm

42:13

always having conversations with them about , like

42:15

I think there there might be a cultural component

42:17

here . This is what it is . So , on

42:19

an individual level , like I do that , but I think

42:21

me entering into this new

42:23

field , I'm realizing that there

42:25

is a larger issue that

42:28

, yeah , it does need to be

42:30

addressed , just in terms of , like , how it's having

42:32

a systemic impact on folks who are

42:35

black and could be very successful

42:37

in the workplace , but maybe companies are not

42:40

actually giving them a fair

42:42

chance right

42:44

, right .

42:45

Well , we're looking forward to continuing

42:48

to follow along this work , this

42:50

transformative work that you're doing with

42:52

your counseling psychology background

42:54

, developing leaders , developing talent

42:56

. We hope that you get to do more of that

42:59

in our community , since that something

43:01

that is also important to you . So , as we start

43:03

to wind down , would love to know what

43:05

is one thing that you would do differently

43:07

, if any , during your doctoral

43:09

journey .

43:10

I I remember like seeing

43:12

this question when Sarah and I

43:15

first spoke and I was like I guess

43:17

I don't know

43:20

this is no regrets

43:22

for you .

43:22

I love that . I mean , if it's not , I do

43:25

feel like how my journey went

43:27

.

43:27

Like it , yeah

43:29

, I feel like I was led in a

43:32

way that makes me feel like I was

43:34

doing stuff , in a way that

43:36

was like fulfilling and like authentic to who

43:38

I am . I will say , though , that I

43:41

, even though I was very

43:43

much like on the student advocacy tip

43:45

, I would say that I wish that

43:47

I didn't feel

43:50

as scared to

43:52

speak up about certain things

43:54

, which I did end up , for the most part

43:56

, speaking up about , but there's such like

43:58

a difference in hierarchy

44:00

and the power system , or

44:03

the power differential between faculty

44:05

and students , but I mean , with

44:07

some of the things that were going on , like within the

44:09

graduate program and the larger university

44:12

, I feel like it

44:14

wasn't . It's not worth it to

44:17

try to mince , like how we advocate

44:20

for students , especially

44:22

black students and other students who are at a disadvantage

44:25

, for the sake of

44:27

, you know , whatever could happen due

44:30

to that fear . So I think that's the only thing that I would change

44:32

is just like being more vocal about

44:34

certain things right

44:40

.

44:40

yeah , that's very similar to the advice

44:42

that Dr Shelley and Gadjadar

44:44

gave I just I talked to her yesterday

44:46

, so it's like very much on my mind , but

44:49

she said something similar that

44:51

was like don't sacrifice your

44:54

authenticity for likability , so

44:56

like don't kind of hold yourself back from

44:58

yeah being your true self and for

45:00

advocating and for speaking up yeah

45:02

just so that you can be liked , so

45:04

that that really closely aligns with with what

45:06

she said too . So what

45:09

is one final piece of advice that you have

45:11

for current or prospective

45:13

black women and non-binary ?

45:15

doctors yeah , this one I would say like

45:17

do it's

45:19

hard because every program is kind of different and

45:21

different demands . But coming from

45:23

a program where you know I had

45:26

to juggle a lot of different things and

45:28

my weekly hours were super

45:30

maxed out , I would say to not

45:32

sacrifice your personal

45:35

, like self-care , mental health

45:37

time , social life . Like

45:39

find a way to continue to incorporate

45:42

that in whatever you're doing , because it

45:44

the degree is not worth your

45:46

mental health or your happiness

45:49

or you know anything else that is

45:51

going on . Like obviously there's things that

45:53

will miss . Like I experienced so

45:55

much loss and so much celebration that

45:57

I missed out on being around

46:00

family , for , but I tried

46:02

my best to make sure that I was still

46:04

maintaining , like

46:06

my life outside of academia

46:09

, because that is more so

46:11

what life is about . Like this degree is a part

46:13

of who I am , and so I

46:15

think it's important to continue to maintain

46:18

those aspects of our identity and

46:21

what makes us like happy and

46:23

going , so that we can be able to

46:25

get out of the program with , you

46:28

know , some sort of semblance of

46:30

sanity and health

46:32

.

46:38

Yes , we can finish with just a little bit of sanity

46:40

left yeah , and then we've done a good job

46:42

. Well , thank you so much

46:44

, doctor on one guy for joining us today on

46:46

the co-orcist's podcast is an enjoyed

46:49

pleasure speaking with you and learning more about how

46:51

you've applied your research to your

46:53

current work . I hope that other people

46:55

learn and take some gems away from your

46:57

journey and continue to follow on with

47:00

you .

47:00

I really appreciate you creating this

47:02

space . Like when I first found

47:04

it . I'm like I don't even know how she

47:06

got to figuring all this stuff out .

47:08

But we need it , so I really

47:11

appreciate it , and you , dr Kohlin thank

47:24

you again for listening to this week's episode

47:26

of the cohort sisters podcast . If

47:28

you are a black woman interested in joining

47:30

the cohort sisters membership community

47:32

or you're looking for more information

47:34

on how to support or partner with cohort

47:37

sisters , please visit our website at

47:39

wwwcohortsistascom . You

47:42

can also find us on all social media platforms

47:44

at cohort sisters . Don't forget

47:47

to subscribe to the cohort sisters podcast

47:49

and leave us a quick review wherever you're

47:51

listening . Thank you so much for

47:53

joining us this week and we'll catch you in next week's

47:55

episode .