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Dr. Robina Onwong'a on Culturally Sustainable Approach to Psychology and Global Black Liberation

Dr. Robina Onwong'a on Culturally Sustainable Approach to Psychology and Global Black Liberation

Released Wednesday, 2nd August 2023
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Dr. Robina Onwong'a on Culturally Sustainable Approach to Psychology and Global Black Liberation

Dr. Robina Onwong'a on Culturally Sustainable Approach to Psychology and Global Black Liberation

Dr. Robina Onwong'a on Culturally Sustainable Approach to Psychology and Global Black Liberation

Dr. Robina Onwong'a on Culturally Sustainable Approach to Psychology and Global Black Liberation

Wednesday, 2nd August 2023
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0:13

Absolutely , because one

0:15

super tangible thing is that

0:17

, because I had that funding

0:19

monthly and also being in Columbia

0:21

, missouri , be it

0:23

a very to me small

0:26

town because I come from a big city

0:28

, but to them I don't think we consider it a small town

0:30

. But being in a small town

0:32

that is not very diverse

0:34

, like one of the widest places

0:36

that I've lived . It was important

0:38

for me to have moments to be able to just

0:41

escape and go visit my family when I was

0:43

really missing them . So , having that stipend

0:45

and also living

0:47

in a place that was lower

0:50

cost of living , I was able

0:52

to manage paying my rent and still

0:54

be able to save money to leave

0:56

during times when I really felt

0:59

like , okay , I need to get away .

1:03

Welcome back to the Covert Sisters podcast , where we give

1:05

voice to the stories , struggles and successes

1:08

of black women with doctoral degrees . I'm

1:10

your host , dr Yamacola . Our

1:12

guest today is Dr Robina O'Wonga

1:15

, who received a PhD in counseling

1:17

psychology from the University of Missouri

1:19

Columbia . A Maryland native

1:21

with roots in Kenya , dr O'Wonga

1:24

shares her journey as the first in her family

1:26

to achieve a doctoral degree and discusses

1:28

her research on the long term effects of

1:31

childhood trauma . From her unique

1:33

upbringing to her advocacy as

1:35

a black psychologist and executive leadership

1:37

consultant , dr O'Wonga's

1:39

story is one of perseverance and

1:42

empowerment . Join us as we uncover

1:44

the profound connections between adverse

1:46

childhood experiences , ethnic identity

1:49

and psychological well-being . Let's

1:51

dive into this inspiring conversation . Welcome

1:54

to the Covert Sisters podcast , dr Robina

1:57

O'Wonga . It's so exciting

1:59

to have you back in . Connected

2:01

with Covert Sisters . We had you as

2:03

a panelist for our Black History Month

2:05

workshop , talking about how

2:07

you navigated being the first in your family

2:10

to get a doctoral degree . So congratulations

2:12

on that . In and of itself , of

2:15

course , love for you to introduce yourself

2:17

. Tell us a little bit about who you are , where you're from

2:19

and where you currently live now .

2:21

Yeah , thank you . I'm excited to be here , glad

2:24

that I found Covert Sisters while I was in

2:27

grad school and , even though it was towards

2:29

the end of it , it was really helpful connecting

2:31

with a community of other black

2:33

women scholars . So

2:35

I'm Robina O'Wonga . I

2:37

am , I guess , like I have

2:40

, a border crossing upbringing . I consider

2:42

myself a Marri Kenyan in that I was

2:44

born in Baltimore , I grew up in Kenya

2:46

, east Africa , for like

2:48

the first six formative years of

2:50

my childhood and then I came back

2:52

to the states where I grew up , in Prince George's County

2:55

, maryland , where we found the birth

2:57

to it as PG . And

3:00

I'd also like to know is that Maryland

3:02

is occupies like ancestral

3:04

lands of the Patuxent , piscataway

3:07

, susquehannock , and I know

3:09

a few others that I'm probably forgetting

3:11

Indigenous nations . So

3:14

yeah , I grew up around here , I went to

3:16

University of Maryland for undergrad and

3:19

I studied psychology in French and

3:22

I did some international

3:24

studies as well . And I went

3:26

to France to study abroad

3:29

in Nice for like half a

3:31

year and that was a great experience

3:33

.

3:35

I'm really jealous because I like

3:38

when one regret about college was that I didn't do

3:40

study abroad I know this is not a podcast about college

3:42

life at all but like if I could do it again

3:44

. I'm like I wish I had studied abroad

3:46

and like lived a romantic life

3:49

in France . I took French in high school . So

3:51

I'm like , oh , I wish I had done . That's what I should have done

3:53

, instead of I don't know what I was doing in college .

3:56

Yeah , that was one thing that I was , like really adamant

3:58

about wanting to do .

4:00

So , yeah , good for you , good for you and

4:02

also , of course , shared identities with

4:05

you know , being you called border crossing

4:07

. I like I haven't heard that term before , but I like

4:09

that term , having a foot in

4:11

two different places , and

4:13

obviously I'm like , not obviously

4:16

, but Kenya has a huge part

4:18

of my life since my husband's

4:20

Kenyan . We've lived there for a while trying

4:22

to get ourselves back there . So

4:25

long story short , you're my sister

4:27

, my Kenyan sister

4:29

and excited to be in community with you today

4:31

, so can you talk to us about what your doctoral

4:34

degree is in and what you studied

4:36

.

4:37

Yeah , of course , and I will say the phrase

4:39

border crossing . I got that from Dr Ty

4:41

Douglas , who is one of my mentors while I was at

4:43

Mizzou , and he uses that a lot in his

4:45

research because he calls himself

4:47

a border crossing brother . So

4:51

but yeah , I got my doctorate

4:53

in counseling psychology and

4:56

I went to Mizzou University of Missouri

4:58

. That's the flagship university

5:00

for the institution .

5:01

Yeah , and

5:05

what did you research ? What was your dissertation on ?

5:09

Oh gosh , like I

5:11

feel like I did . That was only last year and

5:13

I already kind of am like past

5:15

that . But yeah , I actually did a topic

5:17

that was pretty close to my heart so

5:20

I'll share like the main question and

5:22

what I explored and then like my reasoning

5:25

behind it . So I was

5:27

, and still am , curious about the impact

5:29

of people's experiences during their childhood

5:31

on their development across the lifespan

5:34

. So I was specifically

5:36

looking at adverse childhood experiences

5:39

, or ACEs , which are categorized

5:41

as abuse , neglect , household

5:44

dysfunction . And that was

5:46

after I saw this TED Talk by Dr

5:48

Nadine Burke Harris . She's a former

5:50

surgeon general for

5:53

the state of California and she

5:55

heard TED Talk was on how childhood trauma affects

5:58

health across the lifespan . So

6:00

from my dissertation I was specifically interested

6:02

in the relationship among

6:04

ACEs , ethnic identity

6:06

and psychological sense of community or

6:09

our sense of belonging to like a specific

6:11

entity , and how

6:13

that all connects to our

6:15

mental health . So like satisfaction

6:18

with life , positive mood for

6:20

black emerging adults in the US . And

6:23

then the reason that I really wanted to embark on that

6:25

is because through , like the studies I

6:27

was reading , I , you

6:29

know , found out and you know , obviously knew

6:31

through lived experiences that it's a thing . But the

6:34

research was also showing that exposure

6:37

to traumatic incidents is

6:40

pretty common , especially like

6:42

in the US . So like two thirds of people experience

6:44

a traumatic event during their lifetime , and

6:48

the CDC also had a study where

6:50

they were . They showed that 60%

6:52

of US residents reported at least

6:55

one adverse childhood experience and

6:57

about 10% of the population reported

7:00

four or more . And then I knew

7:02

, like through looking at more data

7:04

, that black people were at a way

7:06

higher risk than other racial

7:09

ethnic groups for experiencing

7:11

ACEs , which I'm sure you know as

7:13

, like a historian of race and medicine

7:16

that in a society where systemic

7:18

oppression and structural racism

7:20

is prevalent and pervasive

7:22

, that black people are at

7:25

a disproportionately higher rate to be

7:27

impacted by trauma and

7:29

, from my case , specifically , adverse

7:31

childhood experiences .

7:33

Yeah , absolutely . So what point

7:35

? Growing up did you become interested

7:37

in psychology ? And then

7:39

can you talk us through the decision

7:41

to specialize in counseling psychology

7:44

, maybe versus clinical or developmental

7:46

psychology or all the other versions

7:48

of psychology ? We'd love to kind of know , like

7:50

, what brought you to this ? I

7:53

understand the research , but what brought you to the field in

7:55

general ?

7:56

Yeah , I would say like the first

7:58

maybe formative memory

8:01

or around the time where I had that first

8:03

formative memory of like this

8:05

is a space that I want to go into was

8:08

high school , and initially

8:10

I was actually really interested in forensic

8:12

psychology . You know , those shows that we see

8:15

about like criminal

8:17

minds , law and order

8:20

, how do people think and how does their

8:22

thinking impact their behavior , mood

8:26

, all those things . So that was my initial interest

8:28

in it and I was like , well , I want to be like the agent

8:30

and kind of look into that stuff . And

8:32

then it got a little bit deeper for me where

8:34

so around the time I was in middle school , Kenya

8:38

had gone through a lot of civil unrest

8:40

with the elections that had gone on during that time

8:43

, and I had family

8:45

who ended up traveling

8:47

to different areas outside of Kenya

8:50

to seek asylum , and some family came here to

8:52

the US . At that time , obviously

8:54

I knew it was like a huge thing , but I

8:56

hadn't , you know , I didn't really have the mental capacity

8:59

to actually conceptualize

9:02

what was going on . So when I got to high

9:04

school and I was thinking more about that and

9:06

I got to take a psychology class in high

9:08

school , I was like , oh , this is really interesting

9:11

. And that kind of sparked my

9:13

interest of like , okay , how is this trauma

9:15

that people experience at such young ages

9:18

Like ? What does that do to us

9:20

growing up ? How

9:22

does that impact the way that people are

9:24

within their families ? I also

9:26

at the time was like it

9:28

had family members who had like mental illnesses

9:31

which I didn't really know about

9:33

at the time . But I was like , okay , there's something going

9:35

on here and I just wanted to know

9:37

more about it . So I

9:40

ended up in , you know , experiencing

9:42

all that and then taking the psychology

9:44

class in high school I was

9:46

like I think this is what I wanna measure

9:48

in because it's interesting to me and

9:51

I wanna continue to learn

9:53

more about this and

9:55

what I can do to contribute to helping

9:57

. So at first I actually

9:59

at the beginning of high school , I was like I wanna

10:01

be a lawyer because I wanna advocate for

10:03

people in immigrant communities

10:06

in that specific way . But

10:08

then I realized that as

10:11

a lawyer I wouldn't be able to do some

10:13

of the healing help work that I really

10:15

wanted to do to have a better

10:17

impact .

10:17

So yeah , yeah

10:19

, Thank you so much for sharing that you

10:22

know , as someone who also comes from a country

10:24

that is plagued with political

10:30

trauma . I think , that it's so

10:32

important to for

10:34

people to just kind of

10:36

think about the different ways in which not only

10:39

things that they experience , but things that their

10:41

families experiencing even your extended

10:43

families experiencing can still very

10:45

much inform how you move through

10:47

the world and form and shape what your

10:49

interests are , but also ways in which you

10:51

need to heal . Yeah , yeah

10:54

, I'm

10:57

just going to complete that .

10:58

For interaction , there's a lot to be said of like

11:00

our countries were both , you

11:02

know , formerly British colonies . So there's

11:04

a lot of like the vestiges of

11:07

that . You know , trauma that comes up for

11:09

how the countries are present

11:11

day .

11:13

Right , right , and like not being

11:15

able to under , like not understanding

11:17

all of that history when you're a child . Yeah

11:19

, like think , as we continue to grow older

11:22

and it becomes , like , more present and we

11:24

are still seeing the ramifications of that

11:26

. It is incredibly traumatizing

11:28

, even though , like we ourselves

11:31

, we're not necessarily under colonial rule , but like

11:33

we can , you still see the impact , you still

11:35

see the residues

11:38

of colonization on

11:40

us . So it's like it is really . It

11:45

is troublesome . Yeah , 100% yeah . So

11:48

let's talk about your doctoral program

11:50

. Why did you go to

11:53

Mizzou ? Why was

11:55

that the right program for you ? How did you end up

11:57

there ?

11:58

Yeah , oh yeah , you did ask me why I chose Calving

12:00

Ritz clinical . So

12:04

when I was in undergrad , my

12:06

semester that I studied abroad

12:09

was the

12:12

last semester of my

12:14

junior year and while I was abroad

12:16

, I remember , like you know , getting

12:19

emails from like advisors being like

12:21

, oh you know , sign up for your next classes

12:23

. And during that time a lot of my peers

12:26

were solidifying

12:29

internships during the summer for

12:31

their respective fields and stuff . And

12:33

you know , I was abroad , so I

12:35

wasn't , I wasn't really thinking about that at the time

12:37

until that started coming out . So then I

12:40

remember having a friend who

12:42

I used to do I used to work as a community

12:45

assistant , which is like the people who sit

12:47

at the front desk and work with the RA

12:49

to give you the keys and make any emergency

12:51

phone calls for students , and one of

12:53

my coworkers at the time had

12:56

mentioned that they were working on some research

12:58

project and I was like , oh , that's interesting , sounds

13:00

like a lot of work , like , tell me more

13:02

about that . And they were

13:04

part of the McNair program

13:07

, and so they told me about the McNair program

13:09

and then I ended up being

13:12

, you know , like slightly interested at the time

13:14

, but I didn't really have any true like

13:16

research interests . I hadn't had much research

13:18

experience but whenever

13:20

I was thinking back to what I could do

13:22

for the summer , I remember I remember them saying

13:24

like it's a summer program , so I

13:26

ended up reaching out to

13:29

the program and applying

13:31

. I ended up getting accepted

13:33

and so that , I think , was like a really

13:35

pivotal moment for me because that

13:38

gave me a chance

13:40

to have a summer research experience

13:42

within the credibility of like

13:44

a McNair program that was reputable

13:47

. And then , when it came time to

13:49

apply to programs , the program

13:51

director , dr Rhea Roper-Ned she's

13:54

a black woman proud of Howard

13:56

University alum she pushed all

13:58

of us to apply to a certain number

14:00

of doctoral programs and

14:02

so I ended up applying and

14:04

the program actually paid for

14:07

like a whatever number

14:09

she was telling us to apply for . They paid for those

14:12

application fees , so that

14:14

was very helpful at the time . So I

14:16

ended up going

14:18

to one of the professors in the psychology

14:21

department I never had a class with her

14:23

, dr Karen O'Brien . I saw

14:25

that she had a paper

14:27

on the outside of her door where she was

14:30

like this is for office hours . So I

14:32

put my name down for an office hour . I

14:35

went to the office hour and I'm sure she was

14:37

like who are you ?

14:39

Like I know , I have a lot of students .

14:40

But she seemed like the type of professor who knows

14:43

, like , who her students are by name and stuff

14:45

. So I just told her I'm like , when

14:47

I was doing some research for you

14:49

know , mcnair , I saw that you work

14:51

with you've studied like

14:53

women who experienced domestic violence

14:55

and I'm interested in , you know

14:57

something that has to do with like trauma

15:00

and how that impacts people and so can

15:02

I talk to you about like my interest in

15:04

doctoral programs and stuff . And so

15:07

she literally like took a yellow

15:09

post-it note and wrote like

15:11

maybe six or seven programs on there

15:14

with program directors

15:16

and faculty that she knew like she

15:18

could vouch for and was like reach

15:20

out to these programs and you

15:23

know , like that's a good starting point for you

15:25

. And before she even did that , she

15:27

actually asked me like what are your interests

15:30

? Like why are you thinking about going into psychology

15:32

? And based on what I described

15:34

like giving her the whole background of like

15:36

what I'm interested in , you

15:39

know , trauma I had done like a paper

15:42

on that child soldiers in Sierra Leone

15:44

and how that was impacting them she was like

15:47

counseling psychology seems like

15:49

a better fit for you because those

15:51

programs typically have more of a

15:53

social justice , multicultural emphasis

15:55

than clinical psychology programs . So

15:58

that was kind of the key thing

16:00

that pushed me towards counseling versus clinical

16:03

. And so then I applied to those programs

16:05

and University of Missouri

16:07

being one of them is where

16:09

her former advisor

16:12

was the program director at and

16:15

at the time she was not accepting students

16:17

, dr Lisa Flores . But she

16:19

emailed me back and let me know

16:21

that there are these other professors who

16:23

have adjacent research

16:26

interests to yours and they could still

16:28

mentor you through the program . So I

16:30

applied to like nine programs

16:32

. I got interviews at three

16:34

and when I

16:37

went to do like that program specifically

16:39

, it just felt like a really warm program

16:41

. The way that she was leading

16:43

it at the time . It just

16:46

felt like a good fit for me and

16:48

also other

16:50

like things that let me to feel

16:52

like I divinely , that was like the divine

16:55

order for me

16:57

to be at that place .

16:59

Right , right . But also like shout

17:01

out to you for being like . You know I

17:03

wanna do this . I need to figure out who's doing it . So

17:06

I'm gonna sign up for this random person's office hours and

17:10

get some FaceTime with them , because

17:12

I think that sometimes we can kind of get in our head

17:14

and be like , well , I don't wanna bother someone

17:16

. They don't know me . But you

17:19

never know who is willing or able

17:21

to connect you and to help you if you don't ask

17:23

. So I think , that is a really great . I'm

17:26

so excited that you shared that testimony

17:28

, really , and the testament to your perseverance

17:33

and your determination that you , once

17:35

you figured out what you wanted to do , you figured out

17:37

a way to find the resources that you needed

17:39

to get there . So shout outs

17:41

to you for that . I hope other people kind of take that with

17:43

them and are inspired

17:45

to not be shy about

17:48

reaching out to folks , networking

17:50

, talking to people , because you honestly never know

17:52

who knows who who can refer you to

17:54

wear , et cetera . So

17:57

shout outs to you for that .

17:58

Yeah , and I will . I'll talk to you about your time .

18:00

Oh , go ahead .

18:01

I will say that that was a really key piece

18:03

because I almost didn't reach out

18:05

to those people and even like

18:07

getting into the McNear program was a huge confidence

18:10

boost for me because I

18:12

literally failed my very first

18:15

psychology class . I had to get

18:17

like I think at the time Maryland had like

18:19

freshman forgiveness or something

18:21

like that where I had to retake my

18:23

psychology class and I had to retake

18:25

another course . That was like probability

18:28

, which were two major courses that were needed for

18:30

me to actually continue on

18:32

in the major . Otherwise , if I didn't pass

18:34

them , I would have had to select

18:36

another major . And I remember

18:38

when I was like asking about

18:40

programs , there was a professor , like pretty

18:42

prominent in the field actually , who

18:45

ended up looking at my GPA and at the

18:47

time I had taken the GRE as well and

18:49

he was like , yeah , I'm not sure that you're gonna

18:51

get into programs with

18:54

these grades in , like the main

18:56

courses , like major courses and

18:59

this GRE . So you might wanna do

19:01

a little bit more like post back

19:03

and then try again .

19:08

Little Zihino that was not your calling

19:11

that's wild

19:13

, but there's actually one of the very first

19:15

recordings that we did on the podcast

19:17

, dr Mercy

19:19

Agyampong I

19:22

hope I'm recollecting her last name properly

19:24

, but she also spoke quite

19:26

at length about I think

19:28

we had it even in the title . I think she had like a two

19:30

point something GPA when she graduated college

19:33

and then still went on to get her doctoral degree

19:35

and it was such a

19:37

testament of the fact that , like when , the

19:40

grades and assessments are

19:42

not a measure of intelligence , they're

19:44

not a measure of willpower , they're

19:47

not a measure of research ability . So

19:49

sometimes those can also

19:51

limit us , but we have to be able to push forward

19:53

and not let what's on paper

19:55

, or what someone tells us is on paper

19:58

, to stop us from pursuing our

20:00

academic dreams and goals , if that's what we really

20:02

want . So , thank you also for sharing that

20:04

additional context as well . So

20:07

, when you were at Mizzou

20:09

, talk to us about some of the successes

20:11

and some of the challenges . What were the highlights

20:14

of the program ? What were some of the more

20:16

rougher patches of the program ?

20:19

Yeah , one of my highlights has to do with

20:21

, like , my initial , like entry

20:23

into the program . So

20:25

, in terms of finding funding , I remember when

20:28

I was in undergrad here in grad , students

20:30

say like , oh , you shouldn't have to pay for you

20:32

know , like doctor , doctoral program

20:34

. At the time I wasn't really paying attention

20:37

so I'm like I didn't really know what they meant . I

20:39

just knew that they were TAs and they were getting

20:42

either paid or you know something for it . And

20:44

so , like one of the other things

20:47

that helped me know that it was just divine orchestration

20:49

for me to be there is that when

20:52

I was interviewing for the programs that I interviewed

20:55

for , I was pretty transparent with them about

20:57

letting them know that finances

20:59

is going to be a big barrier to me pursuing it

21:01

. And I remember even telling

21:04

, like folks during my time at

21:06

the interview at Mizzou , that if I don't get funding

21:08

, like this is just not something I'd be able to pursue

21:11

right now . And so my

21:14

advisor at the time wasn't

21:16

obviously like I was interviewing with different people , but

21:18

my person who had accepted

21:21

me as an advisor , dr Christopher Slayton . He reached

21:23

out to me and was like hey , can

21:25

you just like rework your

21:28

personal statement to

21:30

be more specific to this

21:32

fellowship and then I'll submit it

21:34

for you I was still in undergrad

21:36

at the time I'll submit it for you and

21:38

get back to you on the results

21:41

of that . So reworked

21:43

it , literally sent it to him like maybe within

21:45

the same week , and then

21:47

on my birthday that

21:50

year so yeah , march 17

21:52

, 2016 , he

21:55

reached out to me and was like you

21:57

were awarded the fellowship . It was

21:59

the Gusty Reggio fellowship

22:01

. It's supposed to acknowledge the first

22:03

black graduate student that Mizzou had

22:06

and I was given that fellowship that

22:08

was gonna cover my funding for five years

22:10

and give me what's

22:12

it called like a stipend for nine

22:14

months out of the calendar

22:17

year . And that was

22:19

really a highlight because it I

22:21

mean I still have to do assistantship jobs , like

22:24

during my time in the program , but

22:26

I didn't have to worry about how

22:28

my tuition was gonna be paid and I ended

22:31

up graduating . I have loans from undergrad

22:33

, but I ended up graduating from

22:35

the PhD program with no loans

22:38

and no stress in terms

22:40

of like how I'm gonna make that up .

22:43

Yeah , that is a huge success

22:46

. Yes , yeah , so how

22:48

did that kind of motivate you , even

22:50

through the challenges , as you start to think about

22:52

some of the challenges , just knowing that

22:55

your advisor advocated

22:58

for you to get this funding , to get this

23:00

additional funding , and then having like the

23:02

weight lifted up of your shoulders about how you're

23:04

gonna pay for the program .

23:05

Yeah .

23:06

Was that one of the things that helped kind of shoulder you on

23:08

through some of the lower points ?

23:11

Yeah , absolutely , because one

23:13

like super tangible thing is that

23:16

, because I had that funding like

23:18

monthly and also being in Columbia

23:20

, missouri , be it

23:22

a very to me small

23:24

town because I come from a big city

23:26

, but to them I don't think we consider it a small town

23:29

. but being in a small town that

23:31

is not very diverse , like pretty like

23:33

one of the widest places that I've lived

23:36

. It was important for me to have

23:38

moments to be able to just like escape

23:40

and go visit my family when I was really missing

23:42

them . So , having that stipend

23:44

and also living

23:46

in a place that was like lower

23:49

cost of living , I was able to manage like

23:51

paying my rent and still be able

23:53

to save money to leave during

23:56

times when I really felt like , okay , I need to get away

23:58

. So I was able to go home during

24:01

the winter holidays

24:03

. I sometimes would be able to leave and

24:05

go visit , like my cousin who also lives in the Midwest

24:07

during like the fall break , just

24:10

having time to actually leave

24:12

. And that was possible because I had

24:14

some of that funding . Like I know people who

24:16

were not able to leave as

24:18

often as they wanted to because they

24:20

didn't have that type of funding , and

24:23

so that's something that I'm really grateful for . And

24:26

then also just like having the mental capacity

24:29

to like handle

24:31

everything else that was going on , from

24:34

research to for

24:36

counseling psychology . We have to do clinical

24:39

work throughout the time of our program . Except

24:42

for me , my first year , I didn't have to do that because

24:44

I came straight out of undergrad so my

24:46

first year was just classes and work . But

24:49

it really takes a toll on students

24:52

to be doing clinical work and giving

24:54

therapy or doing assessments in hospital settings

24:57

and then having to switch gears to go

24:59

to class and then switch gears to go to work . So

25:02

, knowing that I really didn't have

25:04

to work an extra job like some

25:06

people did , or I didn't have

25:08

to really worry too much about that

25:11

, I was able to spend that

25:13

very limited mental capacity

25:16

on those other things that

25:18

were required .

25:20

Yeah , I'm glad you brought

25:22

that up , because because

25:25

I think that when we often

25:27

for me , even myself , like when I think

25:30

about the additional

25:32

burdens and

25:34

the additional labor that black women often

25:36

take on in order to complete their doctoral

25:38

degrees a lot of us work

25:40

through the program and I've always thought about that

25:42

as you're working and so

25:45

because you need finances , because

25:47

maybe you don't have funding , that takes away

25:49

time from you to be able to do your

25:51

work , and so maybe that means that you take a little bit longer

25:53

. But I've actually never made the connection

25:55

between the extra

25:58

work and the mental capacity . So

26:00

I'm really I'm glad that you brought that up , because there is like a

26:03

mental fitness that you need to persevere

26:05

in a doctoral program and if

26:08

you're navigating a lot of other different

26:10

things , then you only

26:12

have so much mental fitness , you only

26:14

have so much mental energy . And

26:16

if you're kind of like chopping at it , chopping

26:19

it up into different pieces , so that you can have a little

26:21

bit of mental energy for work and have a little bit

26:23

of mental capacity for your life

26:25

at home and like maybe you're taking care of an

26:27

ailing parent or a dependent or something

26:29

like that , so I've actually

26:31

I've just always been thinking about it , working

26:34

outside of a program as like a financial cost

26:36

, and you've just helped me think about it as

26:38

a mental cost too .

26:39

So , like . I'm being enlightened . I'm being

26:41

enlightened . What's that ?

26:43

that's a black pack . Yes

26:46

, yeah , but I feel like we talk about it financially but not

26:48

emotionally or mentally . But it is both

26:51

an emotional and mental tax as well as a

26:53

financial tax . Yeah

26:56

, that was my boy . Okay , maybe other people will already

26:58

knew that , but that was just new for me . But who's

27:01

a parent ?

27:01

there , I guess , is more so putting words to

27:03

that .

27:05

Yes exactly . Yeah

27:08

, did you have any black female mentors ? I

27:10

?

27:10

was like everybody talk about challenges , oh challenges

27:13

. Yeah , if you

27:15

want to , I'll just highlight like a few

27:17

, because I feel like it

27:19

is something that I don't

27:21

know if at the time of my interview

27:23

a lot of students spoke about

27:25

it , because when I was starting my program

27:27

they had black women before

27:30

me in the program . But at the time that I interviewed

27:32

and for my first year

27:34

or two there , I was the only black woman

27:36

in the program . There were black men there who

27:38

you know , were like brothers

27:40

to me and helped to kind of , you

27:44

know , take me along . But

27:46

when I , yeah , first interviewed , like

27:48

I felt the warmth of the program . The professors

27:51

, the program director were very

27:54

kind and

27:56

all . But I will say that just

27:59

being in , I don't know , I feel like

28:01

it's the doctoral experience

28:03

to wear for black folks . We're sometimes

28:06

taken to these towns that

28:08

are outside of our comfort zone

28:10

, outside of our communities

28:13

that we're used to being around , you

28:15

know , very ivory tower space

28:17

, like it's just . That is something

28:20

that I don't think I was as prepared

28:22

for and so finding

28:24

community and cultivating community during that

28:26

time was really important and the isolation

28:29

that I felt , and I know that other

28:31

graduate students felt , was very different

28:33

to what it was to be an undergrad

28:36

. Like an undergrad , you go . you're in this like

28:38

utopia , away

28:40

from you , know your you know , your

28:43

family that you're born into or whoever

28:45

is taken care of you , and you feel like you have this

28:47

freedom to do whatever and enjoy life

28:49

. And in grad school it's like , okay , you have

28:51

these commitments and even though I had a

28:54

fellowship , my assistantship is like

28:56

they were working me for the money they're giving me you know

28:58

. So it's not like I had as much free

29:00

time on my hand to do a bunch

29:03

of things , but yeah , I

29:05

had to be very intentional about how

29:07

I was spending my time

29:10

outside of the

29:12

school , related stuff so that I could make sure

29:14

that my mental health was still in

29:17

check and that I still was

29:19

able to , you know , like move along

29:21

the program with some sort of sanity . And

29:24

then it wasn't my experience , but I know

29:26

during our program there was so much restructuring

29:28

that happened to where I had

29:31

to step into like a student

29:33

advocacy role and start

29:35

to like speak up and demand certain things

29:37

for myself and other students in

29:39

the program , and that's something that

29:41

is not accounted for

29:44

in terms of like to pay or

29:46

, I don't know , acknowledgement or anything

29:48

like that , and it is something that's going to

29:50

, you know , continue in different

29:53

programs

29:55

, because once you kind of leave the work

29:58

that graduate students do , not much of

30:00

it unless it gets written into like the university policy

30:02

, not much of it is very sustainable

30:05

. So there was a lot of times where

30:07

I feel like the work you were doing was kind

30:09

of helpful in a way , but it almost is like

30:11

it went to waste a little bit because

30:13

the powers

30:15

at the institution they weren't

30:18

as intentional or

30:21

they didn't care as much to kind of keep that stuff

30:23

going . So finding community

30:25

really was like the main way that

30:27

could help me to stay sane and to continue

30:29

to keep going and feel like , okay , what I'm experiencing

30:32

is valid . But I can't

30:34

let that hold me down , because I

30:36

came here for a reason and y'all are

30:38

not going to stop me from , you know , getting

30:40

out of here with my degree .

30:44

Absolutely , absolutely . So

30:46

when you finish your doctoral degree

30:49

, can you talk to us about kind of how you

30:51

were thinking about your post career plans

30:54

and then kind of lead us into the

30:56

thought process as you were wrapping up to what you're doing

30:59

?

30:59

now , yeah . So with

31:01

counseling psychology typically

31:03

, yeah , like the typical

31:05

career trajectory is you graduate

31:08

, you do an internship

31:11

which is like a year of

31:13

solely clinical work Some people might still

31:15

be working for the dissertation during that time

31:17

and then you

31:20

go on to do postdoc , and postdoc

31:22

would either be clinical or for some people they do transition

31:24

into research postdocs , but

31:27

that kind of becomes the standard Around

31:29

. Like my third year of the program

31:31

I realized that I

31:34

didn't want to do clinical work full time

31:36

because of how emotionally taxing

31:38

it was and I knew I wanted

31:40

to do other stuff . Like I

31:43

just , yeah , there's a lot

31:45

of things that I feel like I enjoy doing

31:47

and want to be able to use my degree

31:49

and expertise and like natural , you know

31:51

, like God-given gifts , to contribute

31:53

to the world . And so one of those things

31:56

was I wanted to do consulting

31:58

, which encompasses like organizational

32:00

or leadership consulting , and

32:03

so I took a class , an

32:05

industrial organizational psychology

32:07

class , which was required in our program

32:09

. But it

32:11

kind of perked my ears

32:13

to like , oh , this is kind of interesting , I want to do

32:15

more of this . And then I had a chance

32:17

to be part of a project within the university

32:21

system where we were sourcing

32:23

vendors for executive

32:27

coaches to come in and support

32:29

faculty development at the provost

32:32

and dean level and through

32:34

that I was like , wow , there's really ways that

32:36

I can use the skills that I'm learning

32:38

as a counseling psychologist to

32:41

impact folks

32:44

in almost like a

32:46

larger scale . Because with counseling my thing

32:48

was okay , I can support individuals . At

32:51

the time I was doing a lot of work with children and

32:54

they have like practically

32:56

zero autonomy over their

32:58

lives , and so it was really sad for me to know

33:01

with these kids at school

33:03

, with these kids , you know , when they come into the hospital

33:05

clinic setting , but they still go home

33:08

to the environments that I'm doing research

33:10

about and there's not much that can

33:12

be done . So I'm still working on

33:14

like how to kind of have an impact

33:16

in that way by trying

33:18

to get my licensure so that I can still do some

33:20

clinical work part-time . But

33:23

during that time I realized like I want to work

33:25

with folks who have power

33:28

to impact systems

33:30

and impact more groups

33:33

of people , and for me it looked like

33:35

working with organizations and

33:37

leaders who are able to impact

33:40

like policy and stuff like that , because then

33:42

that has more of a trickle down

33:44

effect than working at the individual

33:47

level , and so that's kind of how

33:49

my interest started

33:51

to bud for consulting and then I

33:53

ended up connecting

33:56

with one of the people who I

33:58

had connected with originally

34:01

from that program of executive coaching

34:03

and I reached out to her just for , like , an

34:05

informational interview . And

34:07

she happened to be like , oh , we have this

34:10

program or we have there's

34:12

this company that I do some contract

34:14

work with and they

34:16

have an opening , like I'm going to give

34:18

you the information for their , the

34:20

partners , and reach out to them

34:23

. And you know , see

34:25

, like go from there . And so I reached out

34:27

to them , she connected me with them via email

34:29

and I my first

34:31

meeting with them apparently was like I guess , the

34:33

first interview , so I did that and

34:36

, yeah , that's where I'm working now .

34:40

Great , so you do consulting

34:42

with this one company . Can

34:45

you talk about how your degree

34:48

and the research skills that you built through

34:50

the degree and it like shows up in your day-to-day

34:53

job .

34:53

Yeah , yeah

34:56

, so the company is a leadership consultancy

34:58

. We do like a number of different things

35:01

. On my end the talent

35:03

management side of things A

35:05

big bulk of my work is

35:07

assessing

35:12

, helping organizations to assess and

35:14

select talent for

35:16

their organization , and then at some point

35:19

we also help to develop them

35:21

and help organizations forgot

35:23

how they can retain some of that exceptional

35:25

talent , and so what that looks like is

35:27

they do the assessments and

35:30

I'm one of the people who interprets

35:32

that . So in my training

35:35

from Mizzou

35:38

, I worked within a

35:40

hospital clinic setting where

35:42

I was doing assessments for parents

35:44

who were bringing their kiddos and or caregivers who

35:47

were bringing their kiddos and for assessments of

35:49

autism , other neuro

35:51

developmental assessments , adhd stuff

35:53

like that . So the basis of

35:56

the assessment work and doing

35:58

like the interviews with the families

36:00

that is something that I still carry

36:03

over to now because it helps with my

36:05

interpretation . It helps when I have

36:07

the interviews with these C-suite

36:10

leaders and just getting

36:12

information out of them and trying to bring

36:14

the assessment data to life . So I still

36:16

use those same skills and actually

36:18

I feel like , even though I didn't get my PhD in

36:20

IO or industrial

36:23

organizational psychology , the skill

36:25

set that I have as from

36:27

the counseling psychology side is one that

36:30

has been really helpful for me with

36:32

the perspective that I bring to the organization

36:34

and the work that I do now

36:37

.

36:41

Did you feel like ? Was there a point where

36:43

you said , no

36:46

, I know I'm not gonna do clinical work , I'm

36:49

not interested in teaching or additional research

36:51

, I'm gonna like look for a

36:54

non-academic , non-clinical

36:56

role ? Or do you feel like it kind of

36:58

naturally happened in that you were connected

37:01

in this way to this company ? Or was there a moment

37:03

where you were like absolutely not not

37:05

going to even look ? Did you look at any

37:07

academic jobs ? Did you like poke ? Do you

37:09

do any searches for any kind of clinical jobs ? Kind

37:12

of curious as to how you

37:14

were thinking about your career trajectory .

37:16

Yeah , all throughout I was

37:18

always open to all academic

37:21

, clinical and then when consulting came

37:23

in the mix around my second or third year , I

37:25

was open to that . I feel

37:27

like over time

37:29

of like doing the student advocacy

37:32

work that I was doing , my

37:34

openness to remaining in academia

37:36

started to decrease

37:40

because of all of the politics

37:42

that I was seeing in the space and

37:44

I was like I just don't want to be

37:46

a part of this you know game

37:49

for real , like I want to do the research

37:51

but I don't want to have to deal

37:53

with all this extra stuff . So , yeah

37:56

, my interest in that started to decrease

37:58

around , like you

38:00

know , towards the end of my tenure

38:04

and like as a doctoral student . And

38:06

then the clinical piece of it . That's

38:09

something that I'm still interested in and I actually

38:11

, when I was applying

38:14

for different places I applied to

38:16

, so I ended up applying to the place that I'm at now

38:18

and then I applied to three

38:20

clinical postdocs and I

38:22

was accepted into two of them . I actually had accepted

38:25

one of them and thankfully

38:27

, I was pretty honest with them in the interview that

38:29

I also have an interest in consulting

38:32

and long-term like want to do this and

38:34

do clinical work on the side . So I

38:37

still , you know , left that in on

38:39

my good term , but I did end up having

38:41

to go back to them and let them know like my

38:44

kind of like dream opportunity

38:46

opened up and I really want to take this

38:48

and I'm still , you know , gonna

38:50

pursue getting my psychology

38:52

licensure so that I can practice as

38:54

a licensed psychologist . And you

38:57

know I plan to reach back out to them at some point

38:59

because they were it

39:01

was like a joint group

39:04

practice that they created two black

39:06

women who I really admire

39:08

the work that they do . So , yeah , over time

39:11

, like the academic one

39:13

decreased , I still do want to do

39:15

research at some point , but just not within

39:17

the academic setting . I know that there are

39:20

organizations that do community-based

39:22

research and I think

39:24

I would feel more

39:27

that's like that , aligned with my values yeah

39:32

, totally makes sense .

39:34

So , since you currently work with developing

39:36

leaders and executive talent

39:38

, you know how do you ensure that your

39:40

consulting work is culturally sustainable

39:43

and contributes to global black liberation

39:45

. Do you encounter any

39:48

black leaders in your client work and

39:50

, if not , how are you kind of making

39:52

sure that you're inserting ideas

39:54

of cultural competency and

39:57

anti-racism into the work

39:59

.

40:00

That is a really tough one because

40:02

, by virtue of how

40:04

like white and patriarchal

40:07

the spaces are , I don't interact

40:10

with a lot of black leaders , and

40:12

part of that is , you

40:14

know , as I'm also learning a lot more

40:16

about the IEL space now that I'm in

40:19

it and looking into the research

40:21

, in that there are a lot of companies

40:23

that have what they call like adverse

40:25

impact . There's not you know the number

40:27

of black folks that interview versus what they

40:29

have in the organization does not

40:31

match up . And that's something

40:33

that , in a way

40:35

, really aligns with some of the research that

40:38

I did during my doctoral program

40:40

of you know , for more

40:42

of a clinical standpoint of wanting

40:45

to do work with

40:47

relations

40:49

like of ongoing , like healing

40:51

, and culturally relevant and sustainable , like

40:55

interventions for black folks that contribute

40:57

to black liberation . But

40:59

within this space , I think I'm still

41:02

trying to actually figure out what that

41:04

can look like . Some of the ways

41:06

that that has come up so far is like

41:08

with the assessment work that we do

41:10

. There's a lot of talk

41:12

about how valid

41:16

not necessarily how valid they are , but the

41:19

impact that it has for

41:21

black people when

41:23

organizations are using assessments

41:25

that maybe are not fully

41:27

vetted in terms of how

41:29

they , how much they've been tested on black

41:32

folks and , yeah

41:34

, I feel like I'm forgetting

41:36

the words I'm trying to use like the impact it has

41:38

on them . But that's something that , yeah

41:40

, has come up in conversation and

41:43

for the work that I do and the

41:45

person who's like my direct leader we

41:47

have a lot of conversations about that , because

41:49

there are times where I've even noticed

41:52

with some of our international candidates

41:54

. Like the assessments that we use , we

41:57

thankfully have

41:59

us as humans behind the scenes

42:02

looking through the data and actually

42:04

writing the reports

42:06

and having the conversations with the companies

42:08

, so it's not just like an AI

42:10

generated thing that's going out to them , but I'm

42:13

always having conversations with them about , like

42:15

I think there there might be a cultural component

42:17

here . This is what it is . So , on

42:19

an individual level , like I do that , but I think

42:21

me entering into this new

42:23

field , I'm realizing that there

42:25

is a larger issue that

42:28

, yeah , it does need to be

42:30

addressed , just in terms of , like , how it's having

42:32

a systemic impact on folks who are

42:35

black and could be very successful

42:37

in the workplace , but maybe companies are not

42:40

actually giving them a fair

42:42

chance right

42:44

, right .

42:45

Well , we're looking forward to continuing

42:48

to follow along this work , this

42:50

transformative work that you're doing with

42:52

your counseling psychology background

42:54

, developing leaders , developing talent

42:56

. We hope that you get to do more of that

42:59

in our community , since that something

43:01

that is also important to you . So , as we start

43:03

to wind down , would love to know what

43:05

is one thing that you would do differently

43:07

, if any , during your doctoral

43:09

journey .

43:10

I I remember like seeing

43:12

this question when Sarah and I

43:15

first spoke and I was like I guess

43:17

I don't know

43:20

this is no regrets

43:22

for you .

43:22

I love that . I mean , if it's not , I do

43:25

feel like how my journey went

43:27

.

43:27

Like it , yeah

43:29

, I feel like I was led in a

43:32

way that makes me feel like I was

43:34

doing stuff , in a way that

43:36

was like fulfilling and like authentic to who

43:38

I am . I will say , though , that I

43:41

, even though I was very

43:43

much like on the student advocacy tip

43:45

, I would say that I wish that

43:47

I didn't feel

43:50

as scared to

43:52

speak up about certain things

43:54

, which I did end up , for the most part

43:56

, speaking up about , but there's such like

43:58

a difference in hierarchy

44:00

and the power system , or

44:03

the power differential between faculty

44:05

and students , but I mean , with

44:07

some of the things that were going on , like within the

44:09

graduate program and the larger university

44:12

, I feel like it

44:14

wasn't . It's not worth it to

44:17

try to mince , like how we advocate

44:20

for students , especially

44:22

black students and other students who are at a disadvantage

44:25

, for the sake of

44:27

, you know , whatever could happen due

44:30

to that fear . So I think that's the only thing that I would change

44:32

is just like being more vocal about

44:34

certain things right

44:40

.

44:40

yeah , that's very similar to the advice

44:42

that Dr Shelley and Gadjadar

44:44

gave I just I talked to her yesterday

44:46

, so it's like very much on my mind , but

44:49

she said something similar that

44:51

was like don't sacrifice your

44:54

authenticity for likability , so

44:56

like don't kind of hold yourself back from

44:58

yeah being your true self and for

45:00

advocating and for speaking up yeah

45:02

just so that you can be liked , so

45:04

that that really closely aligns with with what

45:06

she said too . So what

45:09

is one final piece of advice that you have

45:11

for current or prospective

45:13

black women and non-binary ?

45:15

doctors yeah , this one I would say like

45:17

do it's

45:19

hard because every program is kind of different and

45:21

different demands . But coming from

45:23

a program where you know I had

45:26

to juggle a lot of different things and

45:28

my weekly hours were super

45:30

maxed out , I would say to not

45:32

sacrifice your personal

45:35

, like self-care , mental health

45:37

time , social life . Like

45:39

find a way to continue to incorporate

45:42

that in whatever you're doing , because it

45:44

the degree is not worth your

45:46

mental health or your happiness

45:49

or you know anything else that is

45:51

going on . Like obviously there's things that

45:53

will miss . Like I experienced so

45:55

much loss and so much celebration that

45:57

I missed out on being around

46:00

family , for , but I tried

46:02

my best to make sure that I was still

46:04

maintaining , like

46:06

my life outside of academia

46:09

, because that is more so

46:11

what life is about . Like this degree is a part

46:13

of who I am , and so I

46:15

think it's important to continue to maintain

46:18

those aspects of our identity and

46:21

what makes us like happy and

46:23

going , so that we can be able to

46:25

get out of the program with , you

46:28

know , some sort of semblance of

46:30

sanity and health

46:32

.

46:38

Yes , we can finish with just a little bit of sanity

46:40

left yeah , and then we've done a good job

46:42

. Well , thank you so much

46:44

, doctor on one guy for joining us today on

46:46

the co-orcist's podcast is an enjoyed

46:49

pleasure speaking with you and learning more about how

46:51

you've applied your research to your

46:53

current work . I hope that other people

46:55

learn and take some gems away from your

46:57

journey and continue to follow on with

47:00

you .

47:00

I really appreciate you creating this

47:02

space . Like when I first found

47:04

it . I'm like I don't even know how she

47:06

got to figuring all this stuff out .

47:08

But we need it , so I really

47:11

appreciate it , and you , dr Kohlin thank

47:24

you again for listening to this week's episode

47:26

of the cohort sisters podcast . If

47:28

you are a black woman interested in joining

47:30

the cohort sisters membership community

47:32

or you're looking for more information

47:34

on how to support or partner with cohort

47:37

sisters , please visit our website at

47:39

wwwcohortsistascom . You

47:42

can also find us on all social media platforms

47:44

at cohort sisters . Don't forget

47:47

to subscribe to the cohort sisters podcast

47:49

and leave us a quick review wherever you're

47:51

listening . Thank you so much for

47:53

joining us this week and we'll catch you in next week's

47:55

episode .

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