0:04

Welcome to the Cohort Sisters podcast, where we give voice to the stories, struggles and successes of Black women and non-binary scholars with doctoral degrees.

0:13

I'm your host, dr Jelma Cola, and today we have Dr Shakwinta Richardson, a visionary life coach dedicated to helping Black women prioritize self-care, find joy and reshape their definitions of success.

0:27

Through the PhD in human development and family science from the University of Georgia, dr Shakwinta's coaching centers on intergenerational influences and the transformative power of radical self-care.

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Hailing from South Carolina and a proud graduate of HBCU, dr Richardson's coaching empowers Black women to realign their lives, embracing harmony and self-belief.

0:51

Her insights into the challenges Black women face, combined with her dynamic approach to coaching, offer a pathway to create vibrant, fulfilling lives, so we're thrilled to have you on the podcast, dr Shakwinta.

1:03

Welcome.

1:05

Thank you. Thank you, I'm so excited. I'm so excited for this.

1:09

I am too, so tell us a little bit about who you are, offline, kind of like in real life Like who are you?

1:16

We know that you're from the Carolinas.

1:18

Where do you live now? What do you like to do outside of work?

1:23

All right. So, like I'm from South Carolina, I currently live in Houston with my wife and my two dogs, who like to make a lot of noise, so please forgive me if they, you know, make themselves heard.

1:34

But yeah, so I enjoy just kind of relaxing, chilling, exploring.

1:41

Houston Actually moved here in 2020, middle of 2020.

1:46

And so I'm just now getting to really like explore and see what Houston really has to offer.

1:52

So a lot of my time has been just going to coffee shops, you know, figuring out where those fun spaces are.

1:57

There's a black on bookstore here, so I'm a heavy reader, so there are a lot and just making connections and you got to find my face in a book most of the time.

2:10

I love it. My best friend lives in Houston and my older brother, just in his family, just moved to Houston, so there's some good people in Houston.

2:17

I feel like you're a good person and I'd love to kind of just start from the beginning.

2:23

You know how did you get interested in human development and family science?

2:27

Is that like? Did you even know what that was when you were a kid?

2:30

Walk us through like your childhood and how you ended up specializing in that field.

2:36

Yes, okay, I'm glad you asked for like the full start.

2:39

Okay, so, like, where do I start with this? Because it is very much a winding path, so I'll start with this, yeah.

2:46

Yeah.

2:49

So start with, you know, growing up I came from you know background, limited resources, single parent, my single parent home.

2:58

My dad was in and out of prison, as when I was growing up, and there was always the narrative I was a gifted kid, you're going to be a doctor, you should be a doctor or lawyer, Lawyer that did not, that never appealed to me.

3:07

But you should be a doctor, you should be a doctor.

3:09

So I went through my entire you know, elementary, through high school career thinking I was going to be a doctor, a physician.

3:16

And I got to a point, was like I don't know if I want that or not.

3:21

And then freshman biology hit freshman chemistry and I was like, you know, I actually don't like science, so this might be difficult to continue this career when I actually don't enjoy this, this type of knowledge, at all.

3:37

So at that point I I didn't know what I wanted to do, because what I didn't have a lot of like other conversations and models for other careers.

3:47

Yeah, it was like you're smart, be a doctor or lawyer.

3:50

There wasn't a lot of additional conversation about what other options were.

3:54

So freshman year of college, it's first month of classes, and I'm like what do I want to do.

3:59

I tell the story before and it's, it's ridiculous, but also it just is what it is.

4:05

I was watching two can play that game.

4:08

The movie to complain, and then the Fox's character and I think when you cut Rock L Robinson's characters, I think they both were like marketing executives and like these you know powerful women and did it.

4:21

So I was like, okay, I want to be a marketing executive.

4:23

Immediately changed my major to business and marketing, so, and then, you know, went through my entire college career, got my degree in marketing and I went into my first job at a fortune 500 company, major, major, major retail.

4:38

Did I say is it okay to say where it worked If you want to?

4:41

So got my first job at Target, If it needs to be kind of a game.

4:45

But yeah, my first job was at Target as a business analyst.

4:48

So I'm working in, you know, Target headquarters.

4:51

I'm feeling really good.

4:53

Big shit. I'm sorry I was big stuff.

4:57

You know this was the most money I'd ever made or ever seen, anybody in my family had ever seen or whatever, and I thought I had made it.

5:09

And then I get into the role and I hate it.

5:13

I hate everything about it. I hate my day to day.

5:16

I hate how I was treated. I hate how like what the expectations were.

5:22

I just I did not like the kind of work that I was doing in the kind of environment that I was in and I started to do some reflection.

5:31

I found a mentor there, started to do some reflection and realized that everything that I actually liked about my job had nothing to do with my role.

5:38

It was all about the people portion of it.

5:41

So then decided to leave, decided to become a therapist Complete shift.

5:49

Decided to become a therapist. I went to get my masters in marriage and family therapy.

5:52

Then the transition from there was to University of Georgia and it's human development and family science with an emphasis in marriage and family therapy.

6:02

So like that's the program, so that's how I got into human development and family science.

6:06

So yeah, that was my journey to that degree.

6:13

So did you know any therapist you kind of talked about, you realized it was the people at work that interested you and not actually your role.

6:20

But then I feel like you could have gone into different.

6:23

There are other roles or other kind of like disciplines that deal with people.

6:27

So why therapy? And then why marriage and family therapy?

6:32

So just some. Well, a mentor gave me an exercise to do and it was like looking at what are your interests, what are your passions, what are the things that I'm excited to do, what are the things that you usually question or lean towards, and a lot of it was a counseling type of thing.

6:49

So I really enjoyed having conversations with people, learning about them, learning about how they think and how things work, and then also like relationships, and so not just the individual part, but like how do people like relationships work, how do family relationships work?

7:08

So I did some research because I was in business.

7:12

My first thought was industrial and organizational psychology, but I don't know about that either and then just discovered, through some more research, discovered the field of marriage and family therapy.

7:23

I didn't know it was a thing prior to that. So it's just that the exercise that I did and then some research led me to marriage and family therapy.

7:30

So thanks for sharing your journey on how your kind of like first role, first very big role led you to the realization and thanks to the help of the mentor that that wasn't the right fit for you, but you found another field so.

7:43

I'm always interested when I speak to people who kind of end up as counselors or therapists, because there are so many different kinds of degrees in therapy and in counseling.

7:53

So why get a PhD? Why not stop at a master's?

7:57

Why not do a social work degree that also allows you to do counseling?

8:03

Why get a doctoral degree in the field?

8:07

So in the program that I was in my master's program there was a one black professor and she was an adjunct professor and so that was the only exposure I had to a black professor at that time.

8:25

And I also had another professor who she was a white professor but she she graduated from my PhD program and so while we were in our master's program the she was going through her dissertation, so she was in her internship phase of in the station phase of her journey and so we knew a little bit about it.

8:47

She shared a bit of it with us and so had that as like curious and then had the black professor and then I was coming to the end of my program and I could either go into straight into practice because the master's is a terminal degree, so I could go into that or I could in my mind my fullest potential and become the best I can be.

9:15

And all the little black girls need to know that this is possible.

9:18

Like that was all a part of my thought. If I can, I should that whole narrative.

9:23

And then there aren't many of us, so I need to be one of the ones.

9:27

That is an example. So that's why I pursued the PhD had you know, all of these like my potential and I need to do that, so that's why I did it.

9:38

I had no reference.

9:47

Yes, that was my follow up question because I'm like I'm hearing you say like you wanted to do it because of the like, the future impact, the future potential impact.

9:56

But so I was going to ask you know, you had the, the adjunct professor's mentor, and also someone else who was getting a doctoral degree, but did you Were you exposed to a lot of people who, yeah, can you speak a little bit more to what you knew and what you didn't know before you started the doctoral degree, and maybe what you wish you had known, like once you actually got into the degree?

10:21

Mm-hmm. So I knew that you could be a professor.

10:23

That's what I knew.

10:25

It's like oh, they have this degree, it's the highest degree that you can receive.

10:30

It's, you know, a very big, like big title on all those things.

10:35

And that was it.

10:37

That's what I knew, even though these two professors as I was going through the process of applying and all they, like, you know it's a research degree, it's a research degree.

10:45

A PhD is a research degree. Okay, my experience of research up to that point was an undergraduate and master's level understanding of, like clinical, master's understanding of what research meant.

11:01

That meant going Googling, looking up some articles, and that's what research meant to me.

11:07

So they kept saying it's a research degree and I'm like, okay, cool, all right, cool, I got you and I had no idea what I was getting myself into.

11:23

I had no idea, no idea.

11:25

So I knew that with a PhD, you could be a professor and there was this thing that people call research.

11:32

That is a major part of that degree.

11:34

That's what I knew.

11:36

Yeah, yeah, sounds like you were in for a really big shock.

11:39

So what were some of the successes of your program?

11:44

And then what were some of the challenges that you faced?

11:48

Okay. So my doctoral journey was very I don't know that it was unique, because just in how like I just know, you know, black women, we have different stories but we also have similar stories in some ways.

12:02

So my experience I went into it.

12:06

Not only was I not prepared for the research part of it, I didn't truly understand what that was, I was not prepared for the financial aspect of it, and so I had, you know, my tuition was covered through my assistantship, all that good stuff, but my stipend was not enough to live on.

12:27

And all of the preparation, all the planning that I did you know I'm a financial planner down to the, to the, to the T, but I still I wasn't prepared for just the day to day and how, how much things could flush, fluctuate, things that I would have to pay for, that I didn't know that I was going to have to pay for my conferences and things that we were required to go to and get reimbursed for in, like those types of things.

12:54

So I had a very rough first semester financially.

12:58

I lost I won't say I lost everything, but I almost lost everything.

13:05

My car was repossessed, I had to move into an apartment, a four person apartment with three undergrads.

13:13

I my credit cards got like it was.

13:17

It was bad. It was bad, bad like I was.

13:19

I was about to be out of there. It's like this is not worth it.

13:22

This was all in the first semester like this, out of here.

13:27

So there, that was that piece and thankfully, my professors because I've always been personally I'm like I'm not going to suffer in silence, that's just that's never been me, and so I express what was going on and so they ended up helping me get that part in order.

13:43

But I literally spent the next year and some of the years just trying to get my like financial, personal life together so that I wasn't homeless and hungry.

13:52

So I had a lot of focus on my personal stuff because of that and then, like just having to manage being a first year and not knowing what I was doing.

14:07

So first year was really really it was hard.

14:10

It was really hard. I had, I was out of there.

14:13

I had replied to like 40 jobs.

14:16

It's like I'm getting out of this. Yeah, it was, and I had a company use me with myself over the Christmas break and it was.

14:23

It was like it's all gone.

14:26

It's gone now. There's nothing you can do about it?

14:29

It's gone, it's happened.

14:31

You're doing this, you're whatever.

14:34

What do you want? Not standing this like place of frustration, and you know my emotional space of you know feeling bad about myself, shame, all those things.

14:44

What do you actually want? And literally from that moment on, I decided that I still want this.

14:51

I want to figure this out. Yeah, I didn't know what I was doing coming into it, but I've had some classes now, I've been in these spaces with these people and they were already getting on my nerves with you know, with the racism and the microaggressions.

15:05

I'm like, okay, I'm here, I'm going to do this.

15:07

So I decided to keep going and just figure it out.

15:12

And from that point forward I was also able to find a chair who really made my experience much, much, much better than I think it would have been if I had any other, any other chair.

15:32

So that first year was kind of unique in just all of the turmoil, but it the last three, four years, were made up by having a chair who was really understanding, really kind and helping me create and carve out experiences and will allow me to carve out experiences.

15:51

That made my doctoral journey beautiful.

15:53

I was able to do some things, and I'll stop there because I'm going on.

15:56

But I was able to do some really amazing things through my doctoral journey because of the chair that I had and the mindset that I had of like I'm gonna make the best of this.

16:05

I'm not gonna let this take anything else from me, and I say all the time.

16:08

Yet if I'm gonna do this, I said at that point if I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna come out of this a whole person.

16:14

I don't care what that means, I don't care what that takes, if that means I'm not the most published, if that means that I don't have the best research, whatever that means, but I'm gonna come out of this a whole person.

16:27

Ooh, the gems are already being dropped.

16:30

Wow, okay, so there's the wholeness.

16:32

There's the financial surprise, really, of the cost of, like the hitting cost of graduate school, right, I feel like this reimbursement story is.

16:43

It comes up so many times because folks don't realize the upfront costs and even waiting for your first stipend check.

16:50

I don't know about you. I remember that first stipend check, the income when I thought it was gonna come and I was like ooh well, I thought I was gonna be there at the first day of school and it was not for several weeks.

17:01

So hopefully that's advice for folks who are thinking about it, planning for it.

17:06

Just know some of the financial upfront costs of the early stages but I really, really love your mindset about I'm gonna do it and behold whatever that means, whatever costs, so I think that's really inspirational.

17:21

I wanna touch on this chair that kinda came into your life because I have a pretty similar story where I was really really struggling and then someone joined the department and I latched onto him, was like he will see me through.

17:39

So how did you develop a relationship with this faculty member, the chair, who was able to provide you with the appropriate mentorship and guidance to really see you through?

17:52

And what advice do you have for other people who are kind of seeking out their fairy godmother in the package into a doctoral advisor or kind of struggling to find that person who can really hold them down?

18:06

So the way that I found her, so the part that I didn't speak to.

18:10

When I was going through my master's program, I was also working full time as a coordinator for an intellectual and developmental disabilities board in my hometown.

18:22

So that ended up being my research focus adults with intellectual and developmental disabilities and so we had a institute for human development at the University of Georgia and so she was the director of the institute and so it was like perfect, like research interest.

18:42

But my first year I didn't think that she could be.

18:47

I knew she could be on my committee.

18:49

I didn't know that she could be my chair because I thought it was a different department.

18:52

Turns out she was actually, like technically, she was in my department and so it was just like this is perfect, this is she's the only one who was doing the kind of research or who had the experience in everything that I needed to go through my program and do the research that I wanted to do.

19:13

So that just aligned when it just it became more than I ever knew I needed was just she's just a beautiful, gracious person and kind person and I think some of that I friendly, believe that a lot of it comes from the actual work with folks with intellectual and developmental disabilities and just having a different perspective on labor and work and expectations and intelligence and gifts and X, y and Z.

19:43

So I think that just made her a lot more aware Because some other things that were happening, like during while I was in my PhD program it was during that period of time where there was a slew of Treyvon Martin happened Like in that background, exactly exactly.

20:06

I was in the same time so I know yeah.

20:10

Back to back to back and she was very aware and also gave me a lot of space to be human during those times.

20:22

If I said I need I can't, today she's like I understand If I'm not feeling well, I understand, do what you need to do.

20:33

Like she expected me to get my work done, of course, but that didn't require me to ignore when things were messed up or not going well.

20:43

So that was beautiful. She had the funding that I needed.

20:50

Now, even with the highest level of funding for a PhD program, it's still not enough to like truly live, but she was still able to provide me with that At one point.

21:04

Like my car was messed up.

21:07

Like she helped me. I don't even know if it's okay for me to say some of these things, but she just helped me in a lot of ways.

21:14

Just yeah, I won't go into a lot of these fields, but she helped me on the human side of things in a lot of ways, while also helping me create a research project on dissertation that I felt really good about.

21:29

Like she supported the things that I wanted to look at in my research.

21:33

Yeah, I think that's so hard to find in such a gift.

21:37

I'm so happy that you were able to find someone who could do the dual work, and often we'll talk.

21:44

You know, during our mentorship program we tell folks that often your advisor can't support you emotionally, like they're not trained to do that, they does not their job, and so you often need to build a kind of like a circle of mentors, some of whom will pour into you personally, some of whom will pour into you professionally, academically.

22:01

You know whatnot, whatnot, but you know, to be able to find someone who can pour into you in multiple ways is such a gift and such a blessing.

22:09

So I'm really really excited that you were able to to find that in her.

22:14

And then the second part of your question was like tips, like not tips, but like advice for people on how to find that and honestly I don't know what to tell you Feel like she was a gem.

22:23

You know, I really don't know, but I do think it's important to kind of like observe and see how people just communicate, how they treat other people, cause even if it's it might not be the person that has like the most aligned research, that might not be the person that is the best person to be the chair that happened to be the case with me but I think it's equally as powerful to have someone whose research might not is like specifically aligned, but that you mesh with and it's gonna advocate for you.

22:53

So that's all I can say on that.

22:57

That's a really good piece of advice. The research topic alignment isn't always what's most important.

23:01

Yeah, that's really good.

23:04

Hopefully the people are taking notes today.

23:06

So earlier, when you said that you kind of like not ended up in a doctoral program but pursued it because you wanted to excel but didn't really know much about it when you were in your doctoral program, what were you thinking of?

23:21

Like what would be your next steps? Were you thinking of, maybe I'll become a counselor and a therapist, maybe I'll have a private practice, maybe I'll teach, like what were some of the the different career options that were floating in your mind, like while you were still dissertating?

23:36

All of that. I had, at that point, fully bought into the scholar practitioner model I had.

23:42

I was planning to go on and become a professor while also practicing on the side and allowing my, my teaching and my research to inform my practice and my practice to inform my teaching and my research.

23:54

So, yeah, I had fully bought into the, the scholar practitioner model.

23:58

And that's you know, initially, what I did.

24:02

So, yeah, yeah, okay, I just had bought into.

24:06

I'm curious why you use the language bought into like do you cause you?

24:10

Just unpack that a little bit, unpack that forever.

24:13

Uh huh, uh huh. So being a professor is a it's an undertaking.

24:20

It's an undertaking, it's, it is a role, and it's even in our PhD program.

24:28

So, like I said, it was human development and family science, with an emphasis in marriage and family therapy.

24:32

So there's, they didn't take away classes for the from the, the human development and family science.

24:38

They just added some on and added additional requirements, and so we got used to not only go into classes and doing research, which our colleagues, our peers had to do, that only had the human development and family science, but then we also had this extra set of requirements as well.

24:56

And so, you know, it became normalized.

24:59

But essentially, you're doing two different jobs, and when being professors already a heavy load, and so you know, going into the work was like, yeah, get used to doing two jobs.

25:12

So that's what I mean by about it's like this doesn't sound like a great idea.

25:20

On the other side of like when you actually want to be able to do things outside of work.

25:26

So that's what I mean when I say that like it's, it's a lot.

25:30

Yeah, I've never thought of like the scholar practitioner role as as two jobs, but like now that you put it that way, I could totally see that I know there are a lot of people also.

25:41

I think psychology and therapy and counseling is one field where the scholar practitioner often exists.

25:49

Public health is another one where I think people can often consider themselves that in that role and it's never a courage.

25:57

But you 100% right, it really just is two different jobs Full time.

26:02

So that is something for folks to think about.

26:05

You know, if they want to still pursue those interests, like you really still want to do practice, kind of community based work or clinical work, and you still want to do academic work just kind of know what you're getting into.

26:18

So then, what did you end up doing when you graduated?

26:20

It sounds like walk us through your posts immediately right after graduation your career trajectory to where you are now.

26:28

Yes, okay. So immediately after graduation I ended up.

26:31

So my master's program was in my hometown. I didn't say that part, but my master's program was in my hometown and so then the professor that the professor that was finishing up her dissertation when I was in my master's program she had become the program director of the program.

26:48

So I was able to do like my internship there, do some teaching and supervision to finish my degree at the at my master's program.

26:57

So that naturally apply for different places, but that just seemed to be the best fit for me to get my first job.

27:04

So I ended up. My first academic professorship was at my master's, the university master's program, and so I was a senior professor and clinical director in that program for two years after I graduated.

27:22

And so it's a. It's a.

27:24

It's a teaching heavy program.

27:26

So there's not a lot of research, but there was still some.

27:29

We still do some like small research projects, but it was mostly practitioner based teaching.

27:34

Practitioner based. I had to teach multiple classes and also supervise master students and also, you know, clinical director role and quite frankly, the salary wouldn't what I wanted, when, what I need it, and then also having to get my hours from a licensure and all that at the same time.

28:02

So I'm full time professor, clinical director, doing supervision, teaching, all of that.

28:08

And the next year I didn't start my private practice right away, but then I started my private practice a year after graduating, and so full time professor and part time private practice as well.

28:22

So like I got two jobs and then I was also finishing our, so I had an additional role as a fellow at a clinic, at the clinic that we as well.

28:33

So full time professor, fellow at the clinic, part time private practice Three different jobs.

28:43

It was a lot and still the salary wasn't like then it was a lot better because I had the supplemental, but like I'm having to do three different roles to get to a salary that I felt comfortable with.

28:59

That, you know, I felt like it was what I, what I wanted to what I needed.

29:02

So then 2020 hits.

29:06

I had already planned to get married my husband and wife and moving to Houston, so that was already in the plans to happen.

29:13

So I had decided that I was going to leave academia and go into practice full time and, honestly, I had I don't know.

29:23

Even since I was young, I was like I don't want to teach, I don't ever want to be a teacher.

29:26

That's not something I ever want to do. I've been a student for 20 years.

29:30

My student, I love my students. I enjoyed the experience of it, but it's still not me like I don't enjoy being an educator in that way, so left that part behind, but still wanted to continue being a practitioner.

29:44

So I the plan was to move to Houston in 2020.

29:50

And lean into private practice full time.

29:52

I had already had it part time, leaving private practice full time, and that is what happened.

29:58

And then I added on my coaching practice.

30:02

I started my coaching business around that time as well, and so it was full time or part time.

30:09

You know, a full time practice, private practice and then coaching as well.

30:12

So I had these, both of these roles, and that's where I am now.

30:17

Yes, did the pandemic and you were talking about.

30:21

You already were planning on doing all of this in 2020.

30:24

How, if at all, did the pandemic adjust your plans or accelerate them or break putting out, put a break on them, or did it change anything in any way for you?

30:37

So and this, this is the part that's always, you know, difficult to talk about because it was very helpful to my plans.

30:47

I had already like, there, when we're talking, I made these decisions in 2019.

30:55

Okay, you know 2019, so I'm already looking at.

30:59

Online therapy was not a major topic at that point, like some people were doing it, but it was still like what's this thing, what are people doing?

31:08

And so I had already planned to start, because I'm only at that point.

31:14

I was licensed in South Carolina, I wasn't licensed in Texas yet, and so I could only practice in South Carolina, and so I had planned to do a telehealth online therapy practice.

31:23

But I knew it was gonna be difficult because people weren't used to doing online therapy.

31:28

March comes, everybody has to go online.

31:32

So that worked out really well for me, because, if everybody has to, now I don't have this barrier, this like challenge of convincing my clients or convincing new clients of building my practice with this thing that people don't know about.

31:51

So it was actually very, very helpful in making that transition.

31:59

And now do you feel like there is still enough kind of like social comfort with telehealth and virtual therapy, or do you feel like people are kind of starting to move back into wanting and desiring in-person therapy services?

32:16

So I think people have now really taken to it, and a lot of people prefer the online therapy because it's so convenient.

32:25

You don't have to drive to someone's office.

32:27

You can do it on a break, while you're at work and anytime of the day.

32:32

So I think that it's made it really convenient for people, and so I think more people are reluctant to go back to in-person, but I do find that there are some people who are missing that in-person interaction.

32:41

So I think it's the majority still like the online model, but I do think that a good number of people are starting to feel the need to just be in the energy in the same space as punishable.

32:54

Yes, so I have we're gonna kind of go off script a little bit, cause I came across you very recently in your work because you posted what is now a viral Instagram post of you wearing your academic regalia.

33:18

And for folks who don't know, that's like the gown that you get when you get your doctoral degree and you were sitting on your couch or at arm chair, reading and drinking wine, I believe, and with a fantastic caption, and so I wanna know.

33:32

You kind of said, like you'd like your students, but you knew that you didn't wanna be an educator.

33:39

How did you kind of come to terms with?

33:43

You know, after doing this whole long degree, you've got the robe, you've got the degree, and now you are working in a role that you could have done without the degree, like without the PhD.

33:56

And I'm asking this specifically because, again, the field that you're in, there are folks who do therapy, who do coaching, without a PhD.

34:02

So how did you kind of reconcile that?

34:05

You know I have this degree and I'm doing this work that I really love, but, like, did I need the degree?

34:10

And like, what am I gonna do with the robe? So just love for you to expand on that a little bit.

34:15

Yeah, so, and I think that goes to just my personality and my just one of my life, like philosophies, ways of looking at life.

34:24

And could I have done it without the PhD?

34:29

Absolutely absolutely. And do I think that it was needed?

34:33

That's hard to answer because the degrees, like having the PhD, having the degree specifically like that 10th part of it, is not the only thing that I got from the PhD experience.

34:48

And so in my coaching practice, in my therapy practice and my personal life, like just who I am, was shaped by the PhD journey.

35:00

What I learned about feminism, womanism, came through that journey, Abelism came through that journey, Knowledge of human development came through that journey.

35:15

I use that in my coaching practice understanding relationships, understanding systems.

35:20

In my master's program we get a base level understanding of systems theory.

35:23

In the PhD program it's everything Like it's kind of the basis of human development, family science, and so I use my systems knowledge as a coach.

35:37

So, yeah, I think the way I think about life and the way I think about things is like I do lean into the journey and all of this was part of like leading me to this path.

35:51

I don't know where I would have been, I don't know what my journey would look like if I had gone straight into practice.

35:57

So, yeah, like I could have.

36:02

But that just would have been a different path, A different journey, a different outcome, and I like this outcome and I'm able to use it, even if it's not as a professor.

36:12

Yeah, I think that's really valuable, especially for people you know, myself included, who is still trying to figure out, like I am in an academic career and still keeping an open mind and very much exploring.

36:28

Obviously I also do this work too, but I think that's something that kind of holds people.

36:33

That, from what I've heard by talking to some folks, is like something that sometimes holds people in the academic spaces is because they feel like, well, if I go do something else, like, what was the reason, what was the purpose of the whole degree.

36:46

So I really like what you said about you know, you didn't just get the degree that you gained other things you gained under other skills.

36:54

You gained other knowledge that you otherwise wouldn't have had, that you applied to your work and your personal life, and I think that that kind of holistic approach to thinking about the end result and the product of a doctoral program is really helpful for folks.

37:08

I'm now gonna like reflect on, besides the paper and this, like really niche knowledge that I got.

37:14

What did I get?

37:15

from my doctor degree.

37:16

That was really, really helpful. Yeah, I really really like that framework.

37:20

Fantastic A plus. There's a reason why you're a life coach Like gems just such good gems I would.

37:28

Before we started recording, you were talking about a really exciting project that you have coming up a book.

37:35

Can you talk a little bit more about the edited book that you have coming out soon, why you ended up working on the project and you know when it's coming out and how can we learn more about it?

37:45

Yes, yes, so have an edited book coming out.

37:49

It'll be released October 18th and it's gifted black women navigating the doctoral process.

37:56

Sister Insider. And this book was literally thought up between what me and so it's myself and Dr Brittany Nicole Anderson, who was at the University of Charlotte.

38:05

She's a gifted ed scholar there and we started our PhD programs at the same time she's she was in education and we were writing.

38:17

One day this was like 2016. Maybe 2015, 2016, we were in the cafeteria, in the dining hall at University of Georgia and just talking about we should do this thing, and that is where it started.

38:32

So this book is a collection of our stories and a few of our friends who were also scholars at University of Georgia at the same time we were.

38:45

One of the most powerful things about our doctoral journey was the community that we had.

38:50

We had a very, very unique experience of having dozens of black women who were all connected and we were able to, you know, have community and connect with each other, support each other and help get each other through, and so we're like, we want to put this, we want to like box this up and like share it, share black women, and that's what we did.

39:18

So it's, you know, our individual stories and experiences going through our doctoral journeys, with whatever specific aspects of our own experiences, whatever that was.

39:29

And so, yeah, we share some of our story.

39:32

They each share their story. We share some, you know, nuggets of wisdom, some tools and things.

39:39

It's beautiful. So it'll be out October 18th and the pre-order starts, I think, september 27th.

39:47

Yeah, okay, yeah, we'll definitely make sure to put links in the show notes so folks can get it, and we would love to have you do like a book talk with the cohort sisters community.

39:58

If you'd be open to that. That would be amazing.

40:01

It sounds like a resource that a lot of people need, whether or not they're, especially for folks who are currently in a doctoral program, but also people who are?

40:08

thinking about applying. You know, just want to get more perspectives.

40:11

So thank you for doing the work and thank you for having that cafeteria idea.

40:15

You know, see it to fruition. It's not easy to pull together any kind of work, let alone an edited volume.

40:22

You know wrangling folks.

40:25

So kudos to you. I'm really, really excited for the launch.

40:29

I'm sure you're more excited, but I'm really excited to support the book launch in any way that we can.

40:34

So as we start to wind down, I have I have a question about self care, because it's such a buzzword that people really like to throw out.

40:45

But you kind of harp on radical self care as like really big, foundational in your coaching work.

40:51

So I would love to know have you defined radical self care and what strategies do you recommend to black women and non binary folks for incorporating it into our lives?

41:02

So I define radical self care is is just truly caring for yourself, the human, like prioritizing, centering yourself as a human being who is worthy of and has a right to being cared for, and regardless of whatever's going on externally, it doesn't matter.

41:25

You know what your, what your work is, what your role is.

41:28

That you get to take care of your basic human needs and your basic desires above everything else.

41:34

That you do not have to earn rest, that you do not have to earn breaks, that you do not have to earn a meal, that you can just have these things because you exist.

41:45

And I believe that once we truly honor that we are human and that we have means and that we require rest, and then we require space for our brains to recover and have space to not constantly be working and doing and have to be productive.

42:06

That it allows us a fuller experience of life.

42:13

So I mean you know I hear all the time, you know had to throw something in my mouth, got to keep moving, got to do this, got to do this.

42:17

I didn't eat today because of x, y and z. I didn't do enough.

42:21

I got to get this done before I can. And then, when we do sit down, we pause our brain, we can't, we can't slow it down, so we got to do something else and you know that's that comes from a deep seated place, but it's hurting us and it has harmed us for centuries.

42:41

And so, yeah, it's really re-centering the human in the life, de-centering the work, because we got to work, you know, most of us we got to work in some capacity.

42:53

Even if capitalism wasn't a thing, there would still be roles, there would still be things that we have to do to keep society functioning, and so it's.

43:01

But it's de-centering this capitalistic way of doing it that ignores that we're not machines here just for the production, for the, you know, glorification of someone else.

43:11

So it's truly meeting our needs first, and then other things will fall into place, like having that faith and belief that other things will fall into place.

43:23

I love that so much and I'm going to challenge myself to at least to take one thing.

43:30

My one thing I'm taking away is that you don't need to earn a break.

43:34

That narrative is something that I definitely feel like okay, well, I just got to do X, y, z and then I can take a break.

43:40

So I'm my one little change that I'm going to make is baby steps y'all, but for me, what really stood out is this idea that you don't need to earn rest, you don't need to earn breaks.

43:52

You deserve them and your body needs them.

43:55

So thank you so much for sharing that and for continuing to do the work of just kind of re-educating us on how to take care of ourselves and how to put ourselves first.

44:04

It's such important work and I'm really glad that folks like you get to be able to do it for us.

44:10

So we like to ask all of our guests two questions, just kind of like reflecting on their journey.

44:16

So if, for some strange reason, you had to do your doctoral degree all over again, what is one thing that you would do differently?

44:26

If I had to do it again, what is one thing I would do differently?

44:30

Honestly, speak up more.

44:35

I think I would speak up more.

44:38

Yeah, I think I would speak up for myself, speak up for the collective more, in spaces where I felt silenced because I didn't have the research in the back, like right here at my neck, to back up something, because all the other parts like I love my journey so and it is unique, so I would have spoken up more.

45:05

That's good. And then last question what is one final piece of advice that you have for current doctoral students or aspiring doctoral students who are black, women or non-binary folks?

45:21

One piece, one, just one One last admit.

45:25

One. I know what's counterintuitive to everything that we have ever been taught about success, about being the best, about just like thriving.

45:40

It's all of that. If you allow yourself to just slow down for a bit and tune into what your body is telling you, what you need, and allowing yourself the space to actually recover when you have given off all of the energy that you have, if you allow yourself to slow down and recharge, I promise you you will get so much, so much further than if you just push through, take a break, take a move, take a break.

46:12

My wife and I were talking the other day and this came to my mind because she was like, but the word it piles up Like, yes, there might be more to carry, but your muscles will be stronger.

46:25

And so if you give yourself the space to actually recover, give yourself back some energy yes, there might be more there, but you will be better equipped to handle it because you've actually recharged.

46:39

So that's what I'll say.

46:44

So good, so good. I always I like.

46:47

I always love when, like the folks with therapy backgrounds are on the podcast, because I feel like I get a free therapy session.

46:54

That was amazing advice, not just for doctoral students, but really for everyone.

47:01

Wow, so good quotes like quotable, such good gems.

47:07

Thank you so much, dr Shakwinta, for joining us today on the Cohort SysSys podcast.

47:11

We'll definitely be sharing in the show notes where folks can find you online, where they can access your coaching and therapy services, as well as the links to your upcoming edited book.

47:21

Thank you again.