0:13

Welcome to the Cohort SysSys podcast , where

0:15

we give voice to the stories , struggles

0:17

and successes of Black women and

0:20

non-binary folks with doctoral degrees . I'm

0:22

your host , dr Ejama Cola , and today

0:24

we are joined by Dr Taryn Brown . She's

0:27

an illuminating force in academia and

0:30

in Black girlhood studies . Dr

0:32

Brown received her PhD in educational

0:34

theory and practice , with an emphasis

0:36

in critical studies and social foundations

0:39

, at the University of Georgia , and

0:41

also holds the role of assistant professor

0:43

in the teachers , schools and society program

0:45

at the University of Florida . As

0:48

a program coordinator for the school , society and

0:50

policy specialization and education

0:52

sciences at University of Florida

0:54

, dr Brown has dedicated her journey

0:57

to exploring the intricate interplay between

0:59

gender , race and class within

1:01

the lives of Black women and girls . With

1:04

a blend of scholarship and activism

1:06

. Dr Brown's work resonates at the intersection

1:09

of Black feminist thought and in-depth

1:11

research and storytelling , enriching

1:13

our understanding of identity

1:15

construction , literacies and socialization

1:18

. Beyond the classroom , dr

1:20

Brown founded the Black girlhood collaborative

1:23

, a dynamic space amplifying research

1:25

, teaching and learning within the realm

1:27

of Black girlhood . We're so happy

1:30

to have you here , dr Brown , specifically

1:32

because your work really captures the

1:34

heart and the essence of what CohortSys is

1:36

doing . So welcome to the podcast .

1:39

Thank you . Thank you , I'm excited to be here and share

1:41

.

1:42

Yeah , so tell us a little bit about who you are

1:44

off paper . Where are you from ? Where do you currently

1:47

live ? What do you like to do when you are not working

1:50

? Championing and just

1:52

being an exemplary kind of like

1:54

scholar , academic practitioner ?

1:57

Yes , absolutely . I am originally

1:59

from , or I spent the majority

2:02

of my childhood in North

2:04

Carolina , so small

2:06

town , kind of wedged in between

2:08

the cities that folks know are Chapel Hill

2:11

, durham area or Greensboro there's

2:13

like some small towns in between there , so that's where

2:15

I spent the majority of my time . I

2:18

had parents that both worked at on

2:20

a university campus , so I

2:22

always was around and

2:25

, honestly , I think that's probably also at the core

2:28

of even just where I've ended up

2:31

professionally , because I've always been on a college

2:33

campus , whether it was following mom or having to

2:35

be with mom and dad when they went to work or them

2:38

having some kind of event that I needed to go to attend

2:41

, and so that was pretty

2:43

cool . But the area

2:45

for the most part was pretty rural , like where

2:47

my town was , so small community

2:51

, filled with families

2:53

, I think , and , honestly

2:55

, friendships that are still

2:57

part of it even today , like folks

3:00

that I go back home

3:02

to and get full of

3:04

, full of love , full of laughter and full

3:06

of life . I am

3:08

the proud mother of two

3:10

little ones and proud

3:12

wife of a husband that also works

3:15

here at the University of Florida

3:17

. My little ones are nine , or almost

3:19

nine , and a newly minted five

3:21

year old daughter , who is

3:24

every bit of the reason

3:26

, I think sometimes why do the work that I do ? Because

3:28

she needs the space to be

3:30

herself , to thrive , to shine , and

3:33

so they take up the bulk of my time . When it's

3:36

not work related , I am spending

3:38

time with them . We're

3:41

just getting into the realm of extracurricular

3:43

, after school activities . So I

3:45

, you know , big

3:48

ups to parents that have kids in multiple

3:51

things . I am venturing into one activity

3:53

per child and it is already like

3:55

geez , like my days don't

3:57

end till 8 pm because

3:59

I have to leave here or leave campus

4:02

and then take them to do their do

4:04

their thing . I love a good movie

4:06

. I am definitely like I was the one

4:08

that sat down with

4:10

my mom and watched all black movies

4:13

, like from your historical

4:15

fiction to

4:17

your . What

4:20

do they call them now ? I call them black love movies

4:22

. But like the 90s , like the movies

4:25

that came out late 80s , early 90s

4:27

, I can watch those movies over

4:29

and over and over again . I think , honestly

4:31

, when I do get a bit of time , I like to

4:33

just go back and kind of

4:35

partake . I think the early 90s

4:38

was the

4:40

jam . I

4:42

teach on that sometimes , actually like some of my classes , I'm

4:44

going to use some of the film , the media , the pop

4:46

culture that we got from that genre

4:49

, because now , on the

4:51

other side of it , I'm like , oh , we're just replicating

4:53

or this is a mirror of what we have

4:55

seen before . So

4:57

, yeah , if I can get some downtime , I love

4:59

to watch a good film .

5:03

So you mentioned that family . Your

5:06

family has always kind of been integrated

5:08

in education space

5:10

, specifically higher education . So your parents work at

5:12

a college campus . You just said that

5:14

your spouse also works at

5:16

the same university as you and

5:20

I know that there are people who I'm one of those

5:22

people , who my parents did one thing and I

5:24

was like I will do literally anything

5:26

besides that . And I think there's

5:28

some people who follow and their parents

5:30

footsteps and their families footsteps and

5:32

other people who kind of like go the opposite way

5:35

. Can you kind of talk about why

5:37

it has been either really enriching

5:39

for you or illuminating

5:42

for you to have education

5:44

not only be something that you are personally

5:47

interested in , professionally interested in , but

5:49

really something that seems to be a bedrock

5:51

in your family's story ?

5:53

Absolutely Well . So

5:55

my , my

5:58

father , I am Zimbabwean , so

6:00

my father was an international student , so my father

6:03

was from Zimbabwe . My mother , though , was from

6:05

this rural Bristol

6:07

Virginia , like . If you know anything about the state

6:09

of Virginia , it's in the mountains , it's

6:11

very , very rural . I talk about my upbringing

6:13

being rural , but those that family

6:15

is like deep , deep

6:18

south , and I laugh because people always

6:20

say I have a Southern twang , like a Southern draw

6:22

or twang , but you have not heard the

6:24

family from Bristol Virginia

6:26

that really truly have that

6:28

deep south , that Southern draw . And

6:31

so my parents met when

6:33

they were both

6:35

undergraduate students at Berea College , which is a

6:37

small liberal arts school in Lexington

6:40

, kentucky , and

6:43

my mom's parents didn't have

6:45

as much education . I think my grandmother

6:47

wasn't

6:49

able to make go beyond middle school

6:51

. My grandfather did have a high school degree , but they

6:53

didn't come from . They

6:57

came from humble beginnings , if you will

6:59

, and I know at the core of

7:01

what my mom used to instill in

7:03

us is that she saw education as a

7:05

pathway and an opportunity to open

7:07

doors , which is why she pursued higher

7:09

education as she met my father . My father's

7:11

side of the family did

7:14

come from a very . My

7:18

grandfather , for example , graduated

7:20

with his master's degree in the 60s as

7:22

an international student , so

7:24

that had always been a part of his upbringing . So

7:26

I kind of was like the . My

7:29

upbringing and my center , my

7:31

centering of education was really the combination

7:33

of both my mother's reality of what

7:36

she knew she wanted for her family , and then my father's

7:38

connection

7:40

to the legacy of his family and wanting us

7:43

both to Wanting them

7:45

both to have their children navigate that very

7:47

same experience , and

7:51

so I would say that Again

7:53

, it's crazy , I lost my mother , actually in 2019

7:56

. And so much of what I do now is

7:58

is foundationally grounded into things

8:00

that she would say that I don't even know

8:02

if I really value . So if you would have asked me

8:04

, you said you know , growing up I said

8:06

I wanted to not be with my parents

8:09

. I think I would have probably said the same thing

8:11

. And then I look back and I'm like , wow

8:13

, I as a child , I didn't ever

8:15

say I wanted to be an assistant professor

8:17

, absolutely not . I actually really wanted to

8:19

be . I really wanted to be a music

8:21

producer , and a

8:23

puff daddy is actually what I

8:25

used to say . He's getting down , I mean

8:27

, he's changed , but I really was into

8:29

production and I'm a creative

8:32

Right . You know . I played instruments

8:34

as a child and that's why I thought

8:36

I was heading . And then , lo and behold

8:38

, you know my production is now not

8:40

in the music industry but rather in the context of education

8:43

and how we might dream up greater possibilities

8:45

for kids to thrive . So I

8:47

don't think then I would have been able to say the same

8:49

thing . But I know that when I think about

8:52

their histories , their stories , their lived experiences

8:54

, that for sure kind of underscores

8:57

even the ways in which I was making decisions

9:00

that I might not have even thought like those are kind

9:02

of tethered to , you know , those nuggets that your

9:04

parents kind of drop along the way , and I'm so very

9:06

appreciative for it now and I

9:08

hope that I'm also doing a very similar

9:10

or creating similar

9:13

possibilities , not only for my own children

9:15

but for all of the kids that I'm connected

9:17

to in the spaces that I'm in , with kids in

9:19

their learning processes .

9:21

Yes , oh , I love that reflection and it was really

9:23

beautiful to hear how you know the different

9:26

sides of the family , how they each individually

9:28

had come to this understanding of

9:30

the importance of education

9:32

but also a desire to really channel

9:35

that and build legacy around that . So

9:37

that's really beautiful to hear . So

9:39

, you know , it's one thing to be interested in education

9:42

. It's another thing to study it professionally

9:44

. So how did you become interested

9:46

in educational theory and

9:48

why ? You know , as you said , you were

9:51

as sound as if you were on the music production

9:53

track . How did you end up in a doctoral program ?

9:55

How did ?

9:55

you just like the very opposite

9:57

thing . I loved the

9:59

way that you said that you produce . You

10:01

know you still produce , just in a different way . I

10:04

like that little tidbit . But it is

10:06

not music . Teaching is not music . So

10:08

how did you end up in a doctoral program

10:10

? How did you end up studying educational theory

10:12

?

10:13

Yeah , so as an undergraduate

10:16

student , I did my undergraduate and my master's

10:18

degree at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro

10:21

but it has an undergraduate

10:23

student . I was very engaged

10:25

. So your office of leadership and service learning

10:28

, I was never in I

10:30

ended up going or having experiences as a

10:32

graduate student with housing , residence life . I've never . It wasn't

10:34

already a lot of people that I know that

10:37

have a very they have some similarity and

10:39

trajectory professionally had

10:41

a more active role as like an RA or some

10:43

kind of leader in that way . But I was always

10:46

in play music I

10:48

mean I was in band at the university

10:50

level , savannah band at the university level any

10:52

kind of leadership opportunity that I

10:54

could get into office of multicultural affairs

10:56

, student organizations

10:58

like I started a student organization actually

11:01

and when I was an undergrad

11:03

, like I was always very engaged in that way . That

11:05

really pushed me into the

11:08

space of recognizing that people pursue careers

11:10

in higher education to

11:12

run like college student development

11:14

Resources across

11:16

campus . So like those will be those offices

11:19

leadership and service learning , multicultural affairs , housing

11:21

, residence life , student success

11:23

. You know academic affairs and so

11:25

my , my , my

11:27

bachelor's is telling of my aspirations

11:30

in music because it was media , film and television

11:32

and media studies . That was my bachelor's degree . But

11:36

then , as a student leader , I got pushed into

11:38

higher education as a master's degree

11:41

because I was that student leader and they were like

11:43

, hey , you know , you can pursue this as a career

11:45

. So I got my master's

11:48

. But while I was getting that master's I

11:50

took a course called sociology of education

11:52

and that was my first time really

11:54

experiencing the language

11:57

and the scholarship

11:59

that underscores like systemic and structural realities

12:01

for schools . So

12:04

, as I shared before , I came from a really

12:06

small town , kind of wedge between these

12:08

two kind of big cities in the triad

12:10

area of Merkler liner , and

12:12

I came from a space where I saw things happening

12:14

to friends , family , but

12:17

I wasn't able to name exactly

12:19

what it was Right . So I have friends that became

12:22

parents while we're in school

12:24

. I had friends that had different financial circumstances

12:26

and realities I

12:28

had . We didn't have as many resources

12:31

. I didn't even really realize how much we didn't

12:33

have in our school district until

12:35

I got to college and recognized like

12:37

what is the AP course like ? Because we didn't have those

12:39

. We didn't have those things Right . I

12:42

mean , I didn't know kind of Western in this

12:44

small space . And so when I got into my master's

12:47

program , I took the course Dr Patiz was her name , dr

12:51

Sylvia Patiz was my faculty member

12:53

and we learned about systems , we

12:55

learned about structures , we learned about theory . So

12:58

, pierre Bourdeau , social reproduction theory , how

13:00

there's this ideology that we

13:03

are just socially reproduced into the spaces that

13:05

we are born into and really

13:07

as a farce to suggest that we are able to pull

13:09

ourselves out of those circumstances without some

13:11

real jolt in the system , right . And

13:15

I remember in that class and in

13:17

conversations , because that really catapulted me into

13:20

spaces where I was then in

13:22

like critical working groups and

13:24

larger national organizations

13:26

that center like race theory and social

13:29

theory , to just learn more , because I was hungry for it , I guess , if you

13:31

will , I wanted to understand

13:34

it because I had lived and still live some

13:36

of the realities of the things that we were learning . And

13:40

there was a conversation one time that

13:42

talked about where folks always

13:44

say oh , you know , you know , education is a pathway , you can pull yourself up by your own

13:46

bootstraps . And

13:48

now , sitting in a session and somebody had

13:50

said that , and and

13:53

one of the facilitators said well , what , if you

13:55

don't have boots , how do

13:57

you pull yourself up ? How do you pull yourself up

13:59

and that was like an epiphany moment

14:01

, like to want to know more about , because

14:04

this is just one class . So this wasn't my master's

14:06

program , this is one class in

14:08

a larger program of study , and

14:10

so that really , I think was the spark

14:12

of interest in critical

14:14

studies in education , what I

14:17

now kind of sit in the city , and the social

14:19

foundations of education . How do we

14:21

think about these systems , these implications for

14:23

student experience , both in traditional

14:25

contexts but also in non-traditional

14:27

contexts ? I've

14:31

always been in education but

14:33

I wasn't trained as the classroom teacher . I ran

14:36

your community embedded centers , I ran your programs

14:38

at the YWCA Boys and Girls Club

14:40

. So I've always been the teacher

14:43

, but in the non-traditional sense , and oftentimes

14:45

the person that was the wraparound services

14:47

in response to what students were not getting

14:49

in their typical learning environments

14:52

. And so that also kind of I

14:54

think is at the forefront of how I've kind of oriented myself

14:56

in a college of education is thinking

14:58

about how much learning and possibility

15:00

set in that space , how

15:03

many folks that I have that were traditional

15:05

K-12 educators or folks that were

15:07

in that space that recognized there's a

15:09

lot more autonomy sometimes in other spaces to

15:11

really respond to the needs of students in

15:14

the ways that are needed by those students

15:16

and not with the boundary and the restriction that

15:18

sometimes is cast in

15:21

traditional educational

15:23

environments . That really , those

15:26

wonderings , those thoughts , those

15:29

points of conversation that I had over the years , is

15:31

really what I think situates me now

15:34

, more concretely , in a

15:36

college of education , in a teacher

15:38

education . I mean curriculum and instruction

15:41

program , school teaching and learning , thinking

15:43

about the possibilities beyond within

15:45

schools , but also beyond the schools , because

15:47

the reality is , when I think about what

15:50

I didn't have and what I know my school

15:52

district from a hometown still doesn't

15:54

have , it's

15:56

gonna take key stakeholders or stakeholder

15:59

groups beyond just the school

16:01

to respond to what's happening and

16:03

what kind of supports are necessary for students

16:05

. So that's the thing that keeps me here

16:07

, that's the thing that I think that I can name , what

16:09

got me here and then also what keeps me here .

16:12

Yeah , you bring up a really good

16:14

point , which is that a lot of people who

16:17

enter into higher ed and

16:19

higher ed research and studies , and

16:22

even people we've spoken to on the podcast , did

16:25

come from a K through 12 background . Right , they

16:27

used to be teachers at

16:29

some point . Like I'm trying to think

16:32

of that , there's someone who I've spoken to who hasn't

16:34

hadn't touched the classroom at some point , and

16:36

I think if they exist , they're few and far between

16:38

. So I think it's really interesting that you

16:41

have identified and

16:43

really niche yourself as a scholar

16:46

who understands the importance of

16:48

the relevance for educational

16:51

growth and progress and advancement outside of the

16:53

classroom in ways because especially

16:56

children don't just learn and they

16:58

often learn more outside of the classroom

17:00

than they learn in the classroom . And

17:02

so I think that that's also a testament for

17:05

folks who might be thinking about going into

17:07

higher ed , thinking about studying

17:09

higher education at an academic

17:11

sense , but maybe feel like , well , I

17:14

don't have classroom experience , like can I get into a

17:16

doctoral program Cause I haven't taught in the classroom

17:18

, and so I think that your story , hearing your

17:20

story , hopefully , will be inspirational

17:23

to some folks to recognize that it's you

17:25

don't have to have taught in

17:27

the traditional sense , in the classroom

17:29

sense , in order for you to be a

17:31

thought producer , a knowledge producer

17:33

, to have something very critical and important to

17:36

say about how education should happen for

17:38

our children . So

17:40

I think I really thank you for sharing that and for putting language

17:42

behind your experience and what

17:44

you were really bringing to the field . So

17:48

at what point ? So you're working

17:50

, you're in your master's program . Rather , at what

17:53

point do you decide I'm

17:55

gonna make a joke here that you're gonna enter

17:59

the life of struggle and do a doctoral degree

18:01

? What

18:05

was that decision for you ? Did you work

18:07

a little bit beforehand and

18:10

then , pulling into that , what

18:12

did you decide ? That the University of Georgia

18:14

was the right choice for you ? How did you

18:16

one decide to pursue a doctor

18:18

in the first place and then two , really decide

18:20

on that program ?

18:22

Yeah , so I did work a little bit . So I

18:24

graduated with my master's

18:27

in 2009, . And then I went

18:29

straight into position

18:31

entry level position in student affairs

18:34

. How's the new residence life ? So my

18:36

first position was at Georgia Tech in

18:39

Atlanta as

18:41

a housing coordinator or

18:43

housing director I'm mixing up some of the titles

18:45

. I did that and then I transitioned

18:47

from there to Elon University , which is

18:49

a small private back in North Carolina , clearly

18:52

missing home , so I went back went to Atlanta , came

18:54

back went back to North Carolina

18:57

and worked at Elon and

19:01

during that time I think I would have been able to name

19:03

my research interests as

19:05

a student affairs professional or

19:08

practitioner , as

19:10

centering like mentoring

19:13

is my jam . I've always been there to mentor

19:15

. I've been someone who's benefited greatly from

19:18

very amazing mentoring experiences

19:21

and I've also experienced not great

19:23

mentoring experiences , and

19:25

so I recognize what can happen

19:27

on the latter side and

19:29

so I've always been extremely interested in like

19:31

how do we think about mentorship ? How does that tie into

19:34

retention ? How do we

19:36

think about that as support

19:38

programs ? So during that time , postmasters

19:40

in the field , as a higher-year professional

19:43

student affairs practitioner , I

19:45

was interested in retention of students of color

19:47

, so I often was co-advised

19:50

and a co-mentor in different

19:52

organizations or groups or

19:55

voluntarily kind of signing up to be in that space

19:57

. I think it was probably

20:00

in my third year . I

20:02

don't know if it was the third year . The latter

20:04

year of my Elon experience

20:06

is that I I don't know if I went to a conference

20:08

, but I feel like I was sitting there and I thought to myself

20:11

I'm really interested in , like , how do we

20:13

retain students of color , recognizing that one

20:15

. Both institutions that I had worked at as a

20:17

practitioner , they students of

20:19

color were the minority , or black

20:21

students in particular , were the minority , and

20:24

it was really hard sometimes to like

20:26

, give them , make sure they had what they need so they felt like they

20:28

could thrive . But then I thought to myself

20:31

in those conversations with some of those

20:33

students where they would talk about friends that didn't ever

20:35

go to college , like , and so this , like disconnect

20:37

between who they felt , like they were in

20:39

their current context and who the

20:41

people were that they loved and that they cared for , that

20:44

didn't choose this particular pathway . And

20:46

so there was a question that I had around

20:48

how do we think

20:51

about the students that never even make it in ? Like , what

20:53

is happening ? K-12 for students that

20:55

never even consider post-secondary

20:58

education ? That's really also the extension

21:00

of that sociology of education like folks

21:03

. What is happening ? How do we name that ? How

21:05

do we explore that ? That was the push

21:07

to be interested in applying to a

21:09

PhD program and I actually , at

21:12

UGA , was in the , was admitted

21:14

as a doc student in social

21:16

foundations of education . My

21:18

social foundations of education program

21:21

deactivated while we

21:23

were students in the program and so students

21:25

the remaining is the testimony

21:27

but the students that were remaining in the

21:29

program we had to . Whoever

21:31

was our faculty advisor

21:33

, we switched into that program . So my

21:36

degree is educational theory

21:38

and practice , with an emphasis

21:40

and critical studies in social foundation . But I

21:42

really applied to social foundations because that's

21:44

what I was very interested in and if you , if

21:47

I was to name it's rare that I would even say that I

21:49

have a . I'll say education theory and practice . That's what's

21:51

on the paper , but what I've been trained to be

21:53

as a scholar is

21:55

us , is in social foundations . How do we

21:57

think about these broader kind

21:59

of philosophical , sociological insights

22:02

into teaching and learning and schooling

22:04

? And so that catalyst

22:06

pushed me into the doctoral program

22:09

. I do think there was tensions around

22:11

the fact that I wasn't coming from the classroom

22:13

and that I wasn't and that I didn't pursue

22:15

a PhD in higher ed , because

22:18

I was already in that context and there is a PhD

22:20

in higher ed . But

22:22

I felt like my masters when I , when

22:25

I did my masters , a lot of those classes were

22:27

with PhD students , like those classes were blended

22:29

, and I wanted something different

22:31

because I felt like I had that higher ed , master's degree

22:33

, college student development theory , all of those

22:35

great resources

22:38

and that

22:40

great scholarship . That also informs who I am , I think

22:42

, as a faculty member . But I wanted a pivot or

22:44

an extension of that in a different space

22:46

, and so that pushed me into the

22:49

PhD at UGA . By that

22:51

time . Uga was the option because

22:54

my partner was there in the state and

22:56

I was just looking for programs that were there . So I looked at

22:58

Georgia State , which is in downtown Atlanta , and

23:00

then UGA is in Athens

23:02

and I landed in . I landed

23:04

in Athens and I think as much as

23:06

there was a , that was a rocky experience

23:09

. It was a challenge . You said at the beginning like

23:11

the struggle , definitely

23:14

a struggle , but

23:16

I made it through and I think that I wouldn't change it because

23:18

I know it has informed who I

23:20

am as a faculty member and even how I think about my own

23:23

mentoring and supportive current doctoral

23:25

students that I now kind of advise

23:27

.

23:30

It always like catches me off

23:32

guard when people drop what I feel like our bombs

23:34

in the episode and they just like move on past it . What do you mean by

23:36

your program was shut down , like

23:41

you just said it so casually ? That

23:43

sounds like so destabilizing and

23:46

disruptive . So can you

23:48

talk more about how you navigated that

23:51

and like , did you consider , like what were some of your

23:53

other options ? You even think about leaving

23:55

and doing something else . I don't know what year you were in

23:57

Maybe it just felt like it was too late but

24:00

would love for you to speak a little bit about , about

24:02

that part .

24:03

That experience ? Yeah , absolutely no . So

24:05

it wasn't too late , it was within the first

24:07

year . So they admitted a cohort of three doc

24:09

students . There was three of us that

24:11

came in the year that I came in and

24:13

then , within a year , the program is being deactivated

24:16

. And so in the deactivation of

24:18

the program , as they rallied , you know

24:20

, the three of us , they came in together and then , of

24:22

course , there were folks that were more senior

24:24

than us . They gathered all the students and

24:26

they just had a . The university and the

24:28

college had a commitment to students that

24:30

had applied and been admitted to this program would

24:32

be fully supported to the completion

24:34

of their program . What they ended up doing

24:36

with the social foundations components is infuse

24:39

them into other programs

24:41

. So , like there are still sociology

24:44

of Ed and philosophy of like those courses

24:46

that made social foundations , now we're

24:49

just those courses were placed hodgepodge

24:51

across the university and unfortunately

24:54

, I think that

24:57

was a very trying time

24:59

. I think I actually tried

25:02

to stick it out as best I can . I think I didn't even switch

25:04

into Ethereum practice or make the

25:06

decision to switch into education or theory and practice until

25:08

year four . So I stayed social foundations

25:11

for four years , took me six years , took

25:13

me six years to finish . I had both of my children

25:15

and my doctoral journey and had my son after

25:17

coursework and then I literally walked

25:20

across the stage five months pregnant with my daughter

25:22

. So I did both of those

25:24

things . But I didn't switch out of social

25:26

foundations as like my stamp degree

25:28

until year four because I had to switch all

25:31

of the instability also kind of fostered . I

25:34

had to switch chairs late in the game and

25:36

that's something that I've had to provide

25:39

some insights to other doctoral students and

25:41

I tell students all the time whomever is your chair

25:43

, whomever is your chair and whomever

25:45

forms your committee , you need to feel like you

25:47

can be 100%

25:50

vulnerable with those individuals and sometimes

25:52

that works well for some , depending

25:54

on the faculty that you feel like you have access

25:56

to , and sometimes not so much , and I do understand sometimes

25:59

you have limitations there . But

26:01

I had to make the very hard decision in year four

26:03

to switch advisors and

26:05

at that point that some of that

26:08

was the program was kind of

26:10

we didn't have a program . We kind of were these students

26:12

in limbo that weren't

26:14

really umbrellaed under any particular

26:16

thing and although we were being supported , it

26:18

just felt we didn't get what we needed and I

26:20

tell people all the time I did not get what I was

26:22

supposed to get . As

26:25

a doc student you should be mentored effectively

26:27

. You should be supported to

26:29

kind of start the

26:31

development of your scholarly identity and

26:33

presentations and publications in

26:37

connections and collaborations . I

26:39

didn't really have any of that until

26:41

I switched advisors . I switched

26:43

advisors in year four and that

26:45

advisor I had for the last two years of my program

26:47

really was extremely

26:50

instrumental . She's still faculty at the University of

26:52

Georgia and I call on her even still until

26:54

this day because she was

26:56

the one that really pushed me to keep going . I feel

26:59

like at year four I was just like I think I'm going to take

27:01

my master's degree and

27:03

go back to where

27:06

I know people , because higher

27:08

ed makes money . If you can be a vice president

27:10

or provost

27:12

or director of a department , they

27:15

have a really nice lucrative career . It's a

27:17

lot . It's a lot of work that they do . That's

27:19

what my husband is in . He's still on that side

27:21

. It's a lucrative career but it also

27:23

takes a lot from you . I was really ready

27:25

to leave all this exploration

27:27

, inquiry space and just

27:30

kind of revert back to and I remember

27:32

my

27:34

chair and then

27:36

I had a dynamic . We

27:38

called each other sister scholars . We still call each other

27:40

sister scholars Black women

27:42

, phds that were all at UGA

27:44

at the same time . We actually

27:47

have a book . I

27:49

wrote a chapter in the book , co-edited

27:52

by Dr Brittany Anderson that's

27:54

the University of Muscalana , charlotte and Dr

27:56

Shakwinta Richardson , who's in private

27:58

practice . But we wrote about what it

28:00

meant to be gifted

28:03

black women in PhD programs , like what it

28:05

felt , and each person that wrote a chapter wrote about . Mine

28:08

was , of course , about . I was in a deactivated program

28:10

and then I had kids and kind

28:12

of navigated this . You can't be both . You can't

28:14

be a mother , you can't be a mother

28:16

and get a PhD or have a career and

28:19

have a family . And so

28:21

we wrote about that experience because , also

28:23

, they were very instrumental . When I needed

28:25

to cry , I cried , when I

28:27

was like I'm quitting , they would say , ok , girl , you're going

28:29

to quit for 10 minutes and then we're going to

28:31

get back to this work . And

28:33

it was them . It was those experiences

28:36

, those sister conversations

28:39

that we would have . That kind of got us all through

28:41

. And we have two amazing . I

28:44

came out in 2018 . And

28:46

then there's a group of black girl PhDs . That was 2017

28:49

. And then a group that was after . I feel like that

28:51

is like 30 . I would love to see

28:53

where we all landed , because some , of

28:55

course , we were closer to closer than others , but we

28:57

all ended up at the commencement like rallying

29:00

all the black girl magic , like come take a picture

29:02

and we have these photos of like

29:05

10 black women PhDs

29:07

graduating in the same semester

29:09

, and we had those across three years

29:11

. So what I will say , even in the chaos

29:14

, uga was making space

29:16

for black women PhDs . We

29:18

did maybe have to find our own supports in

29:21

each other , sometimes our

29:23

own shoulders to cry on to make it

29:25

through , but

29:27

we had a community . In a way that I know when I

29:29

talk to other people now professionally when they talk

29:31

about their PhD programs . They were like

29:33

one and

29:36

I can say that there were groups of

29:38

us , and not all at theory and practice

29:40

. We were like over in the hard

29:42

sciences , clinical

29:45

psychology , like we were all over

29:47

the university , but we found each other

29:49

and would come together and like

29:51

be in community with one another , and that

29:54

was also instrumental in , I

29:56

think , helping me feel like I could make it to the end

29:58

of those six years

30:00

.

30:01

Yeah , so important to have

30:04

peer mentorship alongside faculty

30:06

mentorship , and I think that people often

30:08

miss out on that

30:11

realization until it's pretty late in

30:13

the game and even when thinking about what

30:15

programs to go to , a

30:18

lot of schools do peer

30:20

mentorship better . And so , thinking like that

30:22

, if you feel like it will be important for you

30:24

, either you look

30:26

at a program , you look at a school that

30:28

is doing a better job than

30:31

others on diversity or

30:33

you have to be really , really intentional

30:35

from jump about creating that own community

30:37

for yourself Now

30:40

that those cohorts it does . It's easier , hopefully

30:42

, to find people If you are in a space where

30:44

there isn't anyone else , so you don't feel

30:46

like there is anyone else on your campus . But

30:49

either way , I feel like that is really the key

30:51

to success . That was my

30:53

story , so many other people's stories

30:55

. Once you find another sister

30:58

who is like yes , just

31:00

as you said , you can be upset . Today you

31:02

can be mad . You can drop the email

31:04

that you're going to quit , but you're not going to send the email .

31:07

You're not going to send the email Because we're going to finish

31:09

together . And

31:12

so .

31:12

I feel like a lot of the scholarship

31:14

. I'm starting to read some scholarship that

31:17

talks about mentoring , the importance of mentoring

31:19

for Black women pursuing doctoral degrees , and

31:21

one thing I really love is that a lot of the research

31:24

is not just talking about faculty mentoring but

31:26

really this importance of peer and communal

31:28

mentoring as well

31:30

. I want to talk a little bit about your

31:32

research , because there's

31:35

a couple of concepts and terms

31:37

. I'm not a sociologist , I'm not an education

31:39

person , so I'm really just curious Can

31:42

you talk about the concept of

31:44

Black girl cartography and what

31:46

does that mean and what's the significance of

31:48

that in your research ?

31:51

Absolutely so . Black girl cartography

31:53

actually stems from Tamara Butler's work

31:55

. She's actually one of my mentors as

31:57

well and

31:59

she is at the College of Charleston in South Carolina

32:01

. But she gives

32:03

us language to name what it means

32:05

to think about spaces , where spaces

32:08

and negotiations with space that Black girls work

32:10

through . So really a

32:12

lot of her work is an extension of Catherine

32:15

McKintrick's work . So we have Catherine McKintrick

32:17

, another amazing critical scholar that

32:19

leverages Black women in space and

32:21

place and what it means . Her book is

32:23

forgetting the latter half , but Demonic

32:25

Ground is the title of the book , but it talks about

32:28

, it follows the journey of Black women's

32:30

lived experiences historically and

32:32

what space has meant for

32:34

framing lived experience

32:37

and the histories of those spaces and the realities

32:39

of Black women . So she gives

32:41

us language , the language of cartography

32:44

, which is a term used in geography

32:46

for being able to capture those

32:48

negotiations . So we see

32:50

the language being placed with McKintrick

32:52

, with Black women , and then to Tamara Butler's work . Dr

32:54

Butler's work gives it to us in the context

32:57

of Black girls' lived experiences . So how

32:59

do we think about Black girls' negotiations of space

33:01

in typical school ? How do we think

33:03

about Black girls' negotiations in afterschool

33:06

enrichment programs ? How do we think

33:08

about Black girls' negotiation with family

33:10

and what we

33:12

know in the context of Black girlhood

33:14

, black girlhood being a space

33:16

that is now considered

33:19

a field of study that's about 16 years

33:21

old , but we know that it's existed well beyond

33:23

that time . But what it

33:25

does is it captures opportunities for us to think

33:27

about those intersections of what it means to be Black

33:29

and girl and how that at the intersection

33:31

of a particular space can have different circumstances

33:34

. So my negotiations , when we think

33:36

about Black girl cartography , if we wanted to take my

33:38

Black girl experiences in schools , is

33:40

going to look very different from the spatial

33:42

analysis of where I was from , from where

33:44

you were from right , and how you

33:46

negotiate a space , how your family was structured

33:49

, and so Black girl cartography

33:51

really has you kind of coding those different

33:54

aspects of space at the intersection

33:56

of your experiences with

33:59

your Blackness and then also with your experiences

34:02

in your girlhoods or your womanhoods , if you put

34:04

it in the context of women's experiences , and that

34:06

has become Extremely

34:09

instrumental , I think , in how I've come to

34:11

think about

34:13

the projects that I've been tempted to and the work that

34:15

I do . I am naturally a community

34:17

engaged person , like I love to do community engaged

34:19

work and

34:22

what I found is not

34:25

kind of reckoning with that space . The

34:27

histories of that space , the realities of that

34:29

space can skew perceptions

34:31

, interpretations or understandings of what's happening

34:34

. So Black Girl Cartography has

34:36

given me the language and really some foundational

34:38

underscoring for the work that I

34:40

do in Black Girlhood , to also take into the fact

34:42

that we know that places and spaces are historically

34:44

situated and that we also need to think about

34:47

that when we are in these spaces working

34:49

to do qualitative , critical , qualitative research that

34:51

wants to understand a phenomenon . Right , we

34:53

can't understand that if we don't think about the histories

34:55

of the space in which that negotiation or interaction

34:57

is taking place , and that , I think

34:59

, is central . I think it should be central to anybody's

35:01

research . But I think in particular , as I think about

35:04

the work that it is that we do , we

35:06

have to reckon with the histories

35:08

of spaces for Black folks as a people

35:10

and Black girls more explicitly when it comes to my work

35:12

, to really truly understand what's happening

35:14

and what needs to happen for

35:17

future casting and the realities

35:19

of those communities .

35:22

I appreciate you explaining that because that makes makes

35:24

a lot of sense . And , yeah , you're right , and I think that everyone

35:26

should consider space as they're thinking

35:29

about , any research , but especially research

35:31

on Black communities and particularly

35:34

research on Black girlhood . I

35:36

want to talk now a little bit about the

35:38

non research and actually

35:41

I would love for you to challenge me on that if that is incorrect

35:43

. So how you think about the work

35:46

that you do with Black girlhood collaborative , can

35:48

you talk about the mission

35:51

and some of the objectives and how you really use

35:53

a collaborative as a space

35:55

for research , teaching and learning ? You

35:58

know , do you feel like it's an extension of your academic work

36:00

, to feel like it's more activist

36:02

, organizing work ? A blend of the two ? Just

36:04

left you to talk on that a little bit more .

36:07

Absolutely and , yes , it is absolutely

36:09

tailored to my research and I think that's

36:11

the combination of the two . So the

36:13

Black girlhood collaborative really spawned was

36:16

created

36:18

really right before the

36:20

COVID hit . So

36:22

I was recruited here to the University of Florida in 2019

36:25

. And I had the ideas

36:27

kind of forming there around like this kind of community

36:29

space because my dissertation

36:32

work center Black girls . I did dissertation

36:34

work on the narrative experiences of Black teenage

36:36

mothers and I was a school embedded

36:39

pregnant and parenting team program

36:41

. So I've always been in this space , although

36:44

as a UGA doc student there

36:46

was nobody else doing this kind of work . So I felt like

36:48

the anomaly doing work on Black girls

36:50

explicitly . I got challenged a lot like why

36:52

, why Black girls ? Were you a team mom

36:55

? Is that why you want to do this work ? Like this , like

36:57

need to validate . You

36:59

know black experiences is

37:01

still something we navigate to today

37:03

. But it really pushed me

37:05

into like this desire

37:08

to seek community or to see other folks

37:10

that were also writing or

37:12

capturing some of these moments . And so the

37:14

collaborative was really an extension of looking

37:16

for partnerships

37:18

and in a COVID time it

37:20

was looking for . It really expanded just

37:22

looking for them within proximity to

37:24

now we're all online , we could pop into zoom

37:27

or whatever , and then we could build relationships

37:29

with people , and so that was really

37:31

like the formation of Black

37:33

girl hood collaborative , because I was finding that

37:35

there were these pockets of folks that were very interested

37:38

in not only what it was that I was interested

37:40

in pursuing and research that I was doing , but that

37:42

we're doing very similar things or extensions

37:44

of things and and we we

37:47

thrive better in community , like when we get together

37:49

and group , think and share . There

37:51

was something that was happening there , and

37:54

so I decided to kind of bring

37:56

those folks together and put a name to

37:58

it the , the . The ultimate kind

38:00

of vision of the black girl hood collaborative is leveraging

38:03

or co creating learning communities and

38:05

teaching , learning and research in black girl hood because

38:08

it they are teachers . Actually , just pulled

38:10

out of our numbers , I think we have about

38:12

32 different institutions represented

38:14

. We're at a little over 60

38:16

, maybe a little under 70 folks

38:18

from all across the country . They are teachers , they

38:21

are community workers , they are at

38:24

leave student leaders in the schools , they are

38:26

graduate students and graduate programs undergraduate

38:28

students and they are professors . These

38:30

are all people from an intergenerational

38:32

perspective that are very much vested

38:35

and interested in teaching , learning and service

38:37

and being in community for

38:39

and with black girls , and so I've been very excited

38:42

to kind of see it

38:44

grow . I've been excited to see how it serves

38:46

as a support as you reference

38:48

even cohort sisters . Being able to be a community is

38:50

been that as well for folks that are like

38:53

I want to study this thing but

38:55

no faculty are present , but nobody's

38:57

here . I don't . Where do I start with the reading

38:59

right ? I send out . All the time I get tapped from

39:02

graduate students from other institutions that are like he's using

39:04

me a reading list and I have

39:06

them develop . Now they're ready , they're on

39:08

cue to like just say okay , yeah , read

39:10

, read these things right , because

39:12

I know what it means to feel like

39:14

you have that kind of support . The

39:18

collaborative also is like the umbrella

39:20

group that helps support the community , engage

39:22

work that I do . So I also run a critical

39:24

reading group for girls 1318

39:27

here in a lateral county , which is where you

39:29

have said , and

39:31

we center critical text in black

39:33

girlhood and we just talk about who

39:35

we are and what we want to be and

39:37

how we want to exist in the world

39:40

. And so we just came out of

39:42

just had a doc student

39:44

they just attended her dissertation that spent this whole

39:46

last year in the collaborative kind of helping

39:48

facilitate the reading group with

39:51

the girls that we have , and I have another doc

39:53

student that also wants to come behind , understand experiences

39:55

of teachers of what it means

39:57

to work as the alternative learning space , so what it

39:59

means to be a teacher in this space . How do

40:01

we support girls of color ? So

40:04

the collaborative is is is

40:06

community , it is

40:08

support , it is , it is even

40:11

in of itself like a space for mentoring

40:13

because there's connections happening

40:15

outside of me . I really encourage that like

40:17

find your people , come , we

40:20

meet once a month . Also . We started

40:22

that last year . We started meeting once a month

40:25

virtually

40:27

for collective conversation . I can have my

40:29

book here because I was going to send the email

40:31

out . We're reading charisma turn . I'm written

40:33

by Dr Coopson , which is a graphic

40:35

novel and black girlhood . So we'll , we'll

40:37

. We meet for

40:39

critical reading once a month and then I also

40:41

facilitate like right in , because

40:44

for girls like me who I feel like my

40:46

writing is okay , I still say my writing is just okay

40:48

. I can always get better , but you

40:51

feel alone sometimes in the writing process

40:53

and also I am in

40:56

this space of disrupting like forms of tradition

40:58

. I was trained in the traditional way as a doc student

41:00

, so as a researcher , theories and things

41:02

. I was trained in a very traditional way and

41:04

then I recognize like my work is very interdisciplinary

41:07

and I don't want to just sit in this box with tradition

41:09

. When it comes to being a scholar , a

41:12

scholar , practitioner , I want to think about more

41:15

creative , exploratory

41:17

learning and scholarship , and

41:19

so a lot

41:21

of the conversations that I have with graduate students from

41:23

all over is around like kind of owning that

41:26

ability to know

41:28

. I know traditional , but I

41:30

also know this space that I think situates itself

41:32

more concretely with the work

41:35

that it is that I do in the communities that I serve

41:37

, which is more arts based

41:39

, you know , more critical and

41:42

captures a broader capacity

41:45

for access in a way that I don't think

41:47

that all research does sometimes .

41:50

Yes , you are speaking my

41:52

language . I'm just like yes

41:54

. I don't want

41:57

to like digress into all the

41:59

different , many different ways in which that resonates heavily

42:02

with me , because I do want to ask one

42:04

more important question before we start

42:06

to wind down . I

42:09

remember the question as you were talking about

42:11

the reading group that you do with black

42:13

girls , and I am just

42:15

so

42:17

fascinated and always like admiring

42:19

people who can live and work and

42:22

sustain their lives and research in

42:24

Florida . So would love if you

42:26

could speak a little bit about how

42:28

the political

42:30

mobilization against

42:33

what I feel like is

42:35

basic inclusion of black history and culture

42:37

in education , how that impacting your research

42:39

, how that's impacting your work and

42:42

maybe even how that's impacting your parenting

42:44

as a mother of a young black

42:46

girl and a mother of black children . How

42:48

, how is everything that's

42:51

going on , and not just in Florida , many other places

42:53

around the US , how is that impacting

42:55

your research and your scholarship ?

42:58

Yeah , I think that's a powerful question and I get

43:00

it a lot . We , just when

43:02

I went to our conferences are very heavily a lot of

43:04

conferences that I can learn the spring and

43:07

you go to the conference and your name tag says

43:09

your name and then it says where you are and it's

43:11

like folks looking at your Florida

43:13

. Oh , I'm so sorry . And

43:16

so I get this question quite

43:18

a bit , and the reality is that there's

43:21

the communities that need to be served here

43:23

. Is it impacting my

43:25

work ? Sometimes we feel the boundary

43:28

, but I also feel like it's a distraction

43:30

in this in a way . So , like , at

43:33

the core of who I am also

43:35

is my faith , and so

43:37

I also do this work because it's tethered to my purpose

43:40

. So I call it purpose

43:42

work and so I'm gonna continue to do this

43:44

purpose work until I can no longer do it in this

43:46

space and at this particular season of my life

43:48

I've been called to just be in this space

43:50

. So I have been back down , I

43:53

have rally support of colleagues and

43:55

peers , and there are those of us that are here

43:57

, that are here in the

43:59

number right , that are staying committed to doing

44:01

the work , that are staying committed to still running

44:03

a program , a critical reading

44:05

group . I just came out of a summer . I also

44:08

helped run a freedom

44:10

school here . We just came out of a freedom

44:12

school summer . This is our second summer and it was funded

44:14

. Folks were giving money to support this

44:16

right From the community . So there

44:19

are people that want this work and

44:21

the reality is that we have to not

44:24

lose sight in the noise

44:27

of the things that are happening . We need to stay

44:29

aware of it , we need to hear it and know that it's

44:31

around us and for some of

44:33

my colleagues and community

44:35

members also protecting ourselves from the harm

44:37

and the safety concerns that

44:39

also come from continuing to do a work that

44:41

is currently being challenged . But

44:44

it's when I go to my

44:47

community embedded learning

44:49

center with my girls and they're

44:51

excited , right , and I

44:53

hear other mothers and teachers that are

44:55

in communities . They're like please don't stop doing this program

44:57

. Right , like please don't leave us

45:00

. And I think about

45:02

the exemplars that we had in history

45:04

Women , black women

45:06

, black men , folks from a variety

45:09

of areas of expertise

45:11

that did work in places that weren't always

45:13

accepting

45:15

of that work . Right , they didn't do the work in

45:17

places where folks were like , yes , absolutely

45:20

, come here and do this work . They did the work

45:22

, they had the hard conversations , they protested

45:24

, they marched in spaces where they lost their

45:26

lives many of them and so for

45:28

me , I take it as an extension of that

45:31

work . This is not new what we're navigating

45:33

. It's just repackaged with a different wrapping

45:35

paper and different bow , and

45:38

we're just having to figure out

45:40

what is our strategy in this generation , for

45:42

our generation , for those of us that are in

45:45

the work now , that are committed to this work

45:47

. What is the move for us ? To continue to do

45:49

the work that our ancestors

45:51

have already been on for centuries

45:53

, right ? So how do we continue to kind of move that needle

45:55

forward ? And that comes equal

45:57

parts with self-care . That

46:00

comes equal parts with kind of coalition

46:02

building . That comes

46:05

with all of those parts . So I'm not naive to

46:07

the necessities of

46:10

those parts of my experience . But

46:12

my response to that question is I'm

46:14

gonna do the work until I can't do the work . And

46:17

if I can't do the work , I know that it's

46:19

. My season has shifted to do the work in another

46:21

place because again , it's tethered to

46:23

my purpose and what I feel like not

46:26

only I've been trained to do as

46:28

a faculty member , as a black

46:30

woman with a PhD , but also what I know . I

46:32

mean it comes so natural like there's some

46:34

gifts in there , right , and

46:37

that's how I know it's a part of that purpose , because

46:39

there's some natural kind of gifting in that space

46:41

to do this work .

46:44

Thank you so much for sharing that . So what

46:46

is one final piece of advice that

46:48

you have for black women and non-binary

46:51

folks who are current doctoral students

46:53

or thinking about pursuing a doctoral program

46:55

? What is one final

46:57

takeaway that you have for them ? Just one .

47:01

I know just one Timing

47:05

don't rush . Timing

47:08

is big . It took me

47:10

six years to finish . I thought I was

47:12

gonna be done in four . A lot happened

47:14

. I switched chairs . I thought I was gonna drive

47:16

, I was over it , I was done . I

47:19

had two babies , all

47:22

kinds of things happened and

47:24

so I had to trust the timing , I

47:27

had to trust the community and I had to trust

47:29

the process . So find

47:31

your people and

47:33

feel okay with the timing . Don't feel

47:36

the pressure . I think also what

47:38

it does in the journey is make you feel like , when

47:40

you do have groups of friends , that you have to be at

47:43

the same pace . But you might not be . That doesn't mean you're

47:45

not still in community . Your timing might be just

47:47

slightly off , it might not be

47:49

in tandem , right , but you're still there together

47:51

and you're gonna pull through . And I

47:53

say that because I had a dear friend

47:56

again , the editor on that book that I've mentioned before

47:58

. He graduated a year before me but

48:00

she was there every step of the way . I said I had one more year

48:02

and she was still there . She flew in for graduation

48:05

. She would fly in and help my kid . She was just

48:07

there , right . So my timing was different

48:09

and when I came to terms with troubling

48:12

just like perspective

48:15

of what timing should be and really trust it in

48:17

what the timing was going to be , then

48:19

I made it right . I graduated and here I am

48:21

on the other side five years into a faculty

48:24

line doing the thing that it is that

48:26

I love . So just trust the timing

48:28

that is a part of your process and

48:31

know that you'll be fine .

48:33

Fantastic advice . Thank you so much , Dr

48:36

Brown , for joining us today on the Co-Works

48:38

Sisters podcast and for sharing your

48:40

journey as well as your really important

48:43

work and , as you said , it's so deeply

48:45

tied to not only your purpose but

48:47

your gifts . Thanks for that reminder as well

48:49

. Absolutely . ["the

48:58

Co-Works Sisters Podcast"] . Thank

49:01

you again for listening to this week's episode

49:03

of the Co-Works Sisters podcast . If

49:06

you are a black woman interested in joining

49:08

the Co-Works Sisters membership community

49:10

or you're looking for more information

49:12

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49:14

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49:17

wwwcohortsistuscom

49:19

. You can also find us on all social

49:21

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49:24

forget to subscribe to the Co-Works Sisters podcast

49:27

and leave us a quick review wherever you're

49:29

listening . Thank you so much for

49:31

joining us this week and we'll catch you in next

49:33

week's episode . ["the

49:38

Co-Works Sisters Podcast"] .