0:03

Welcome to the cohort sisters podcast, where we give voice to the stories, struggles and successes of Black women and non-binary folks with doctoral degrees.

0:13

I'm your host, dr Jamal Kola, and today I'm joined by Dr Tiffany Wiggins.

0:18

Our guest today has over a decade of experience in higher education, is not only a practitioner and scholar, but also an advocate for transformative mentorship in Black communities.

0:30

Dr Wiggins earned her PhD in education leadership from Old Dominion University and is the founder and creator of Black Girl Mentor, a digital haven and community of practice dedicated to mentorship by and for Black women and girls Aka, speaking my language.

0:48

But her contributions don't stop there.

0:51

As an ICF certified life and academic coach, dr Wiggins partners with individuals, groups and organizations through her firm Noir Coaching and Consulting, guiding them toward clarity and progress on their personal, professional and academic journeys.

1:08

Beyond her professional achievements, dr Wiggins is a proud mother and enthusiast of travel, collecting denim jackets and exploring new restaurants.

1:17

So thank you so much for being here with us, dr Wiggins.

1:21

Yes, thank you, so happy to be here.

1:23

I don't have anything else to say? That intro was amazing, so thank you for having me.

1:29

So thanks so much for joining us today.

1:31

I'd love to know a little bit about who you are outside of your accolades.

1:34

Where are you from? Where do you currently live now, and what is with your obsession with denim jackets?

1:40

Honestly, I am just. I like to call myself a sister friend, right, like I like to.

1:45

I'm an introvert, so I like to spend a lot of time at home but or with you know friends.

1:50

As you mentioned before, I do enjoy traveling where you know.

1:54

That could be so low, that could be with my sister, with family, or a nice girl's trip.

2:00

So so that is me. I spend a lot of time with my daughter, who is she'll be 12 in a couple of months and just in her middle school.

2:08

So it's a very interesting time. So we spend a lot of time together learning about her world and we try to navigate her through this world.

2:17

So that is how I spend my time.

2:20

You mentioned, you know I enjoy the fall which is coming up, so that's really exciting.

2:25

I am a denim jacket collector, so my dad is always like, why do you have so many different jackets?

2:33

So I do that and love to spend time going to Target.

2:37

So I probably go to Target multiple times a week, whether for a purpose or just to kind of be in the atmosphere.

2:45

But but yeah, that is. That is me, outside of my professional accolades.

2:53

Nice, A woman of my own heart. I love, I love Target like so very much.

2:57

So I'm curious, actually, you mentioned having a daughter who is about 12.

3:05

How has being a mom and being a mother of a girl shaped your professional and personal passion for mentoring black women and girls?

3:17

Yes, such a good question. Honestly, if it wasn't for her, I don't even know that I would have like, if my mind would have been open to the, to the, to the path of mentorship, right in terms of it being kind of a professional in purposeful passion for myself.

3:35

Honestly, having my daughter and on it, you know, even as a mother, before I even had her, knew that she was going to be a girl.

3:41

I just knew I was a girl mom.

3:44

I just had to have a daughter and not for the frilly, you know, with pink and bows and that sort of thing I just felt so deeply connected to, to black women and girls.

3:55

So having her really, just really opened my eyes up to the state of black womanhood.

4:01

To be to be very honest, and, you know, the fact that I went natural was because, or back to natural, was because of my daughter, because I was raising her and she had this really thick, coyly hair and I wanted to take care of it and I thought it was so beautiful.

4:17

But because I've been raised, you know, with relaxed hair for so long, it forced me to kind of learn what to do with it.

4:23

And then I was like, why am I putting these chemicals in my hair?

4:25

What? if we changed it for myself as well. So you know, it was that, or the decision to pursue a PhD, which led to you know my passion for mentorship, which we can definitely talk about further but it was knowing that I wanted to pursue the PhD and what that was going to mean for her.

4:44

And you know, my legacy really is what pushed me through as I was going through that process.

4:50

She was very young, somewhere between well, when I graduated with my PhD she was five, so she was pretty young.

5:00

And even the decision to pursue the PhD at that time I had to make the decision do I take all this time and focus on this dissertation while she's young and she may not remember, or do I wait until she's a little bit older and a little bit more understanding?

5:16

And I just knew that those older years as a young white girl in this world, that I needed to be more present at that time.

5:26

And I knew I had a friend whose mom had also pursued a PhD when she was a little bit older and there were some feelings about that right, like there were these memories that she had of her mom kind of really being in the dissertation phase and kind of not being as present as she would have liked her to be, and that kind of resonated with me a lot and so that came into my parenting.

5:47

You know, my decisions give me to pursue it while she was much younger.

5:52

But yeah, all of that, and then even my topic of my dissertation, looking at black women as student affairs, because I'm like I can't be going through this alone.

6:02

What are other black women going?

6:04

through. Because, at the end of the day, this was all for her right.

6:07

I needed to be a model, I wanted to be a great professional, I needed to be a role model and I wanted her to have other role models of black women.

6:15

So to really explore that, all came from me being a mom to my daughter.

6:20

Yeah, I love that.

6:23

And why I asked that question is because I recently had a second kid and I was one of those people who and I still kind of believe this, but I really was committed to like believing that like nothing would change having a boy and having a girl.

6:38

But I will say like now that I have a little girl, I feel like my passion and my commitment for supporting, equipping and encouraging black women and black girls is like tenfold now that I have one of my own.

6:50

So I appreciate your reflection and note the your description of how integral your daughter was to your academic journey, to your professional journey and really to kind of cultivating who you are as a scholar, practitioner.

7:04

So I love that, I love that. I'm right there with you.

7:07

Let's kind of wind back.

7:09

What made you pursue a doctoral degree?

7:13

Why were you interested in pursuing one of the first plays?

7:16

How did you get interested in educational leadership?

7:19

Why kind of pick that path to pursue as a course of study?

7:24

Yeah, so my professional background as a high-red professional practitioner administrator came from my own journey as a going to college right, so I was joking that you don't know about this profession unless you go to college.

7:41

So, as an undergrad really got connected to campus life was very involved.

7:47

I went to a small liberal arts college in Virginia so that allowed me to be very close to administration, be very close to, kind of you know, decisions that would be made regarding student life.

7:58

Some of the senior leaders you know really gravitated towards me and I connected with.

8:04

So at that point I kind of made the decision like, oh, higher ed, you know, kind of taking this path is for me and I just it resonated very well with me.

8:12

I understood it from a business standpoint and a political standpoint and so that was just something that I naturally gravitated to.

8:21

And I think once you're in that environment and not looking at it from the lens of a student, but from, you know, an administrative standpoint, like I said, a political, social, all of these concepts coming together pursuing the PhD or getting a terminal degree just seems like something you're supposed to do, right, and a lot of people around you have them and, as I'm looking at okay, well, what's next?

8:45

You know my professional journey.

8:47

I'm seeing PhD, as you know, one of those criteria, sometimes required, sometimes preferred.

8:54

But as I continued to explore the profession, I recognized that, okay, yes, this is helpful for perhaps to get a job here, but also this opens doors to being able to do other things right, To be able to teach, to be able to, you know, gain credibility in writing a book, to be a consultant, to do all of these things.

9:15

That really resonated with me, was very appealing to me.

9:21

So that's kind of where the scene was planted in terms of getting the to getting the PhD Initially.

9:28

So my master's degree is actually a human resource development, because at that point I wasn't quite sure if higher ed was the path for me.

9:37

I knew I loved it, but no one outside of higher ed understood it, and so when I have family or friends who are like, what is this degree, what are you talking about?

9:47

So I kind of felt so pressured to take a more general approach to my master's degree.

9:52

But so I got a master's in HRD.

9:54

But then, as I'm going through that journey, I really was like no, this is where I need to go, this is where I need to be and I didn't want to get a second master's degree and I would be able to find an EDS program or a post master's program in higher education.

10:08

So the next step up was a second master's degree, so kind of with a bit hybrid opportunity for me to explore doctoral level work without the pressure of dissertation at that point, but also allowed me to take jobs on within the field that I would feel be eligible for.

10:27

So, long story short, go through my EDS program in higher education and that, of course, allows me to work in the field.

10:39

Fast forward, I'm in Washington DC working in a student affairs and academic affairs capacity.

10:45

That particular University, george Washington University, which is where I have my master's from.

10:51

I applied for the PhD program there.

10:54

I was there, I was not a mom at that point and I was like you know what they're here?

11:01

They're gonna pay for the majority of the degree. Let me go ahead and apply and see what happens.

11:05

I apply for the program there, do my interview, I get accepted and then a few months later, I do find out I'm not leaving a mom, which I was like, okay, I will figure it out and end up having to go on bed rest halfway through, on my way to starting the program that summer.

11:23

So I'm like, okay, well, we'll defer a year, defer a year.

11:28

Now I'm a mom to a newborn and I'm like there's no way I can't do a PhD at this point, and so I defer another year.

11:36

And then at that point my daughter's father and I decided to move back home to Virginia to be around family.

11:46

You can be with the only ones there to move, so to be closer to family, have more support.

11:50

So I just kind of gave up GW for a while, started working at Old Dominion University, which again that was where I got my UDS from.

12:00

I learned that I was able to transfer a lot of those credits into the PhD program.

12:05

They were gonna pay for some of those credits. So I said, okay, once I kind of got my bearings in my new position, be in back home, I want to head and apply it again to that program.

12:16

Got in and it was kind of you know, they want from there.

12:21

Wow, okay, what a journey.

12:23

What a journey.

12:25

I'm curious, okay, so, because you were.

12:30

I always find it interesting when I speak to people who work in higher ed and then pursue a doctoral degree, because I think sometimes the thought process around like which schools to go to is like oftentimes it can be really embedded into like I work here and so I'm gonna go here because they're going to pay for me or and they also have a really good program.

12:49

So that's like definitely part of it as well.

12:51

But was there a part of you that kind of felt?

12:54

Was there ever a part or ever a moment where you kind of felt like, okay, I got pregnant, I have to differ another year, like let me just like never mind.

13:05

Kind of like what made you continue with the idea and with the dream to pursue the PhD, even after a couple of Let me call them pauses?

13:19

Not interruptions, but pauses to what you thought the journey was going to look like.

13:25

Definitely. That's a great question and definitely a pause.

13:28

I think once I made up my mind that I was going to pursue a PhD, then I was going to do it by any means necessary, and I think there were other factors that I had to consider to determine when that was going to happen.

13:43

So I had mentioned before the age of my daughter having support geographic location program and I was lucky to be accepted into two great programs, even though they were the institutions in which I was working at that particular time.

13:59

Because, to be honest, if it wasn't a great program, even if I was working there and if it was cheaper I probably wouldn't have applied.

14:06

I probably would have waited until a better time.

14:08

I figured out what made more sense.

14:10

You mentioned the piece about working at the institution in which you pursue your doctorate and in some ways it does feel like I didn't have the same experience as other doctoral students, and what I mean by that is having worked with higher education.

14:27

Having worked with doctoral students is still due to this day, and even helping them to apply the program, to consider the decision to pursue a PhD or EDB.

14:36

I see that journey right.

14:39

They're looking at these different programs, they're visiting the campus, they're talking to different faculty, they're trying to figure out who aligns with their research interests.

14:46

Right, and for me, I didn't necessarily have that same experience because it was so tied to, like I said, those factors that I mentioned before.

14:55

I feel like it all worked out in the way it was supposed to, but sometimes I do wish I had that experience.

15:04

So, yes, in some ways the pause is I kept going because I knew I wanted to, but luckily, you know, by some sort of I don't know divine alignment.

15:14

It all came together the way it was supposed to.

15:17

Yes, awesome. So let's talk about your time in the program.

15:21

What was your experience with finding mentors, both faculty mentors and peer mentors?

15:29

Yes. So, again during this a little bit different because I was working there too.

15:34

So a lot of especially the faculty within the program I kind of knew them from a professional standpoint.

15:41

Like you know, I worked with a student affairs.

15:43

The higher ed program or the educational leadership program worked very closely together, so I was very connected to the faculty in that way and then also because I completed the EDS there too, so some of the faculty were still there and I had relationships and knew them from before.

15:59

So there was this you know kind of pseudo faculty mentorship that would happen, but more so from like I know you and we want to make sure you get through this program, I think, where the mentorship really came in for me.

16:13

It came through me, for me and through me I connected.

16:21

When I worked at George Washington University I got connected to a faculty member administrator I would consider her really my first kind of mentor professionally, dr DeWille Carter, davis Carter, and she just really took me under her wing and not in the sense of like let me help you with this dissertation, but let me open you up to all the pieces of being a black woman, doctoral, you know, phd holder, and one of the first things she did, not only helping me, you know, get a job in the field, but also like opening up to, like, going to conferences.

17:02

Right, she was like, okay, this conference has a call for programs.

17:05

I've been watching this conference forever.

17:07

I've been, you know, presenting here. But come on, we're going to do it together.

17:10

I'm going to let you take the lead. Like, and it was just so magical.

17:14

And I was like, oh, like I just never even would have thought to do that.

17:18

And, ironically enough, our first presentation together was about being a black woman in the doctoral journey, and I continue to present on that topic for many conferences thereafter.

17:32

So that was really who kind of started like open my eyes up to what mentorship for black women in this space looked like for me.

17:40

She did not work at Old Dominion, which is where I was working, in which on my PhD at the time, she was very much connected to people at ODU, but for what it was is that she really poured into me in who I was becoming, you know, as an academic, as this professional, as this PhD holder.

17:58

So that is where it started.

18:01

And then I also had other black women in my life who I was kind of, now that I was like opened up to the idea of mentorship, there were other black women around who also was like, oh, you're like noticed that they were pouring into me in two different ways.

18:20

And to know, I think also because I was working full time I was in this PhD full time, I was mother of this young child, I don't know that my eyes were always super open to what was happening around me.

18:33

So when I had these moments where I'm like, oh, this black woman is like asking me about, like how things are going or how they can support me, I started to see mentorship for what it was.

18:45

And it was honestly through those interactions and some of the ones to come on to be very transparent, where there was some opportunity, where I felt like there was some black women who probably were in a position to support me, it chose not to or didn't, for whatever reason.

19:02

So all of those experiences together really kind of pushed me to want to explore mentorship for black women even more, and then for me also to be more of a mentor, an intentional mentor, not only to, like you know, the younger students out on the campus or younger graduate students, but to my peers.

19:24

So I just kind of started to embrace that and become very aware of what it means to be a mentor, especially a peer mentor, to my colleagues, to my friends, and then that kind of began to poured into my dissertation topic.

19:39

So I think it's really interesting that your really strong experiences with black women mentors and some of the experiences that you had where you expected maybe or anticipated mentorship and didn't receive that kind of mentorship, shaped your research and professional and personal interest in black women's mentorship and mentorship with black women and girls.

19:59

I'd love to know, especially since you started kind of so early in your doctoral journey studying this topic and presenting on the topic, can you talk about what your dissertation ended up being and then how your dissertation study informed the work that you continue to do today?

20:15

Yes, so, you know, as I mentioned before, going through all of these life events right At the same time really, you know, kind of drove me to the decision to pursue the PhD, but then also with, while I was in it, trying to kind of help reframe what my topic was going to be, and initially I was looking at kind of the intersection or something regarding, like the professional and the personal intersections of black womanhood, right?

20:48

Like how do those things come together? What does that look like?

20:51

Actually, no, it was about women of color.

20:54

That's what it was. And my committee said no, women of color, there's too much.

20:59

Pick a side, essentially right.

21:01

And but I didn't, you know, like I said this, this, this, I don't know, fire was ruining me.

21:09

And regarding mentorship, and I think, because I was having this like real life, real time, these experiences that were kind of like polar opposites of one another.

21:18

Right, I'm having these amazing mentorship moments on one side and then others are like what is happening, like this doesn't make any sense.

21:24

So I really wanted to explore that because I was trying to find out whether it's just me or other black women, especially with the student affairs, like what was their life looking like?

21:36

How were they experiencing mentorship? And that is what led to my dissertation study, which was this is a mouthful, but my title is an interpretive, phenomenological analysis of the limbic experiences and mentor relationships of blacks black women student affairs administrators.

21:54

So long story short is, I was exploring what the lives in the mentor relationships of black women who work in student affairs.

22:02

What did that look like? And, of course, I knew my own personal experience, but I really wanted to find out what did that look like for others, for my colleagues, for people who work at other institutions.

22:16

So that is, that is what I ultimately ended up studying and through that, through that study, learned that, yes, there were some of the participants who had very similar experiences as myself and then other.

22:32

Of course that looked a little differently, but some of the things that came out of that exploration was that I think a couple that stand out the most was this idea of being hyper, this hyper-awareness of self.

22:47

So, as black women working in student affairs, even though it may feel like a more liberal field and profession, that we still feel like we have to.

23:00

You know, prep before we send an email, before we, depending on where we're going on campus on that particular day, how we're going to address, how we were in our hair for a presentation versus, you know, being in the office all day.

23:12

How do we present ourselves when we're in certain meetings.

23:16

So there was just this hyper-fixation around you know who we are, how do we present ourselves?

23:21

So that definitely came up. And then, with mentorship, there was this deep desire for black women to for black women student affairs administrators, for them to have a mentorship, not just by another woman but particularly from black women.

23:38

And but there was a lot. There were a lot of challenges that they faced in being able to receive that mentorship, whether that was there just weren't any black women around them at their institution, in their, you know, respective communities, in their department or what have you, that were available to them as a, as a you know who could serve as a mentor.

24:02

Sometimes they would enter into new roles, new schools, what have you?

24:07

And maybe just a provide. There was a black woman and they were excited about the possibilities of mentorship there, but that person because they probably were the only one before or they had so much on their plate that they didn't have capacity or desire to be a mentor to that person.

24:24

So so those are kind of two big things that stood out, and then also the idea of having to kind of negotiate your life regarding those personal, those personal and professional pursuits.

24:36

As a black woman, you're not just. You know if you do have children or you're taking care of, maybe, family members, what have you?

24:43

You know those are other things that you have to consider.

24:45

Also, working in a profession where it's not always just nine to five, you know there's a lot of nights, a lot of weekends that you have to dedicate your time to.

24:54

So how do you negotiate that? Or being connected to your community, where you know maybe you are the parent on the block where all the kids come to after school, or your child is, you know, part of the football team and you're the team mom or whatever.

25:12

Right. But there was always been like there's this negotiation of time but also the desire to pursue these professional goals.

25:20

But at what? At what cost?

25:22

So some of those things came out of the research and but of course, the piece regarding mentorship really stood out to me because it provided some validation that I was not going through it alone, but that there were so many black women who were just kind of getting through the day, getting through the academic year, you know, just kind of getting on to get on, and not really recognizing that there was the opportunity and the there were these benefits of mentorship that they weren't necessarily getting.

25:57

They wanted them so bad, whether or not they named it as such but they wanted these things and they wanted, wanted it, particularly from black women, but that they weren't able to get it in the in this, weren't able to reap the benefits from it.

26:09

So so, yeah, so all of that sparked.

26:13

So, of course, you know, I finished the dissertation I presented, I became Dr Wiggins.

26:20

But what kind of like started up in me was this idea of like we need to talk more so about black women in mentorship.

26:27

That we need a space for, you know, more age, more articles and more, more literature to be created on the topic because there was definitely a dirt as I was creating my literature review but also we need to have more conversations about it.

26:42

Black women a need to be more aware of the benefits of mentorship, where to find mentorship.

26:47

And then those who were also felt like they were those who were in a space to be able to provide mentorship for black women, taking into consideration the nuance of their life, the dynamic nature of black women, that they needed to be more conversation around that, more tools and resources put in into that conversation.

27:09

So, as a result of that, I created a platform, community of practice, called Black Girl Mentor that really centers the power, the purpose, the practice of mentorship specifically for black women and girls.

27:23

Okay, thanks so much for sharing how your dissertation research really tied into the work that you do and the work that you are pursuing.

27:32

I would love to know just like what one high point of your doctoral journey was and like what was a low point, so like one of the main successes and then one of the main challenges that you experienced.

27:45

Yeah, so some of the challenges that I experienced during my dissertation journey was I think time, of course, was a big one Trying to balance, you know, being a mom, being a full-time professional you know excuse me, being a full-time professional Part of the way I was in a partnership and half of the way that partnership ended.

28:11

So also managing that and I think it's important to mention that.

28:17

I know people are like why are you hearing that part? But I do think that is really important because the dissertation journey it takes up so much of your time, your energy, your motivation, right, and when you're kind of managing all of these other major life events at the same time, it does impact your ability to, or can impact your ability to, finish that process.

28:38

So, yeah, so all of those things are happening at the same time, and especially once I got into the actual dissertation phase, where I was no longer taking classes and it was all for me right To kind of get this thing going, it became even more important for me to create a schedule and a calendar that worked.

29:01

Finding time to write was really could be really challenging.

29:05

I was very fortunate that the offices that I worked in there were other people who were personal in PhDs, even in leadership, so they were very understanding of what I was going through.

29:18

I knew the work that I was doing very well, so I was very efficient with getting my work done.

29:24

And then if I needed to take some time off to go write or go to the library, I would take advantage of that.

29:31

But I would say time definitely, or managing time, was definitely a big challenge.

29:35

And then also feeling present for my daughter who, like I mentioned before, was pretty young at the time, I remember having to learn that I cannot do anything regarding this dissertation while she's still awake.

29:49

When she was younger I would think, oh okay, she's like watching a movie or keep watching the show, I can get a few pages written and something about that laptop opening up where she just became laser focused and it was all about me, and I would get so frustrated and I was like you know what, it's not worth it.

30:07

It's not worth getting frustrated. She's a baby, you know, so let's just reorganize.

30:13

So when she's awake, then we're present.

30:16

When she goes down to sleep, then that is when you do your work.

30:19

And that's kind of how I had to do it, just to again make sure I was being a present mom but also getting my work done.

30:27

So those are probably the biggest challenges.

30:34

In terms of my committee, I would say I had a pretty great committee Again being on campus with the department.

30:41

I think that made things very helpful. So if I needed to run over and talk to my chair, that wasn't really too much of an issue.

30:47

A lot of times he would walk over and check in on me, which was really nice, and I know that is not the experience of many doc students, but so there I didn't have too much of a challenge.

30:58

I would say this time maybe would be the biggest one for me.

31:02

So, after you finish your doctoral program, what were some of the things that you did before you decided to start your consulting business?

31:11

And I'm asking because we have had workshops in the cohort, so this is community before, and there are lots of people who are really interested in consulting and interested in coaching and really being able to use their research and scholarship in other ways, and so I would love if you could just share a couple of the steps that you took to create your coaching and consulting business.

31:35

Yeah, to be very honest, it kind of happened it wasn't intentional, I'll say that right like it wasn't a plan where, like once I finished his PhD, I'm going to do XYZ for a couple years and then I'm going to start a consulting business.

31:48

It didn't quite happen that way.

31:50

Immediately following me completing my dissertation and graduating with my PhD, I stayed working at the same institution for a little bit and then I also took on.

32:05

I was really fortunate to be able to get an adjunct professor role the following semester after graduating.

32:11

Just circumstances within the department allowed that opening to happen, so also took on some, you know, took on that role as well, but stayed with that institution for about another year, about a year and a half.

32:26

My supervisor at the time, probably a couple months later, was at roughly retiring.

32:32

She was like oh, I'm retiring and we had our office, was very much responsible for a huge initiative happening over the summer.

32:42

So I kind of had to step in as interim and leave that office for about eight to nine months and unfortunately, when the actual position went on to be, you know, posted, I was not selected.

32:58

So that kind of like okay, right, it's on the fall time to go.

33:02

So I know, yeah so you know like women at work, right.

33:10

So but yeah, let that work for well, if you might, I ask for quite some time for a little less than a year.

33:18

And then, you know, went up for the position and was not granted that position.

33:25

So, and because I'm always like nothing is guaranteed, so I kind of started putting some feelings out myself and some other opportunities.

33:32

So by the time they hired the new person, I was pretty much on my way out the door for another opportunity.

33:39

I was going to another university in another state so so I stated that university for about a year and then I left to come to another university here in North Carolina.

33:49

So right now I mentioned before I'm from Virginia but currently based in rally, north Carolina, and I've been here about four years.

33:56

So came here for director level role here at a university in state there for about a year and a half.

34:10

And when I do that I'm like, okay, I'm starting to have feelings about, okay, what do I want to do with this pirate career?

34:15

I had some friends who worked in like tech and other industries that were like you need to come over here, there's opportunities for you, and I'm like, what am I going to do outside of higher it.

34:25

This is all I know, right? I'm like I've been raised in this profession and so I really was trying to negotiate all of that Like, what does that look like?

34:37

And, like I said, say that for about a year and a half opportunity for doing itself at a tech company that allowed me to work with institutions of higher education, but also in a with mentoring programs.

34:49

So it was kind of everything came, came together, and because there's a lot of well, there is research around the impact of mentorship, it's doing success and, as well as you know, retention and persistence and all of these pieces, it's still allowed me to tap into the scholarly parts of me, right?

35:08

So I'm doing this, I'm in this new environment at tech, but I'm also doing research around it.

35:13

I'm still connected to higher education.

35:17

So things were looking out for me in that I'm like, okay, like you can do this right, like you don't have to stay in one place, you're gaining all these skills and experiences.

35:28

And then I decided to pursue becoming a credentialed coach.

35:35

So I took on a coach training course that took a few months, and then there's some other requirements that you have to do before you get your, your credential your certified initially, but it takes a while to actually get the coaching credential.

35:50

But through that I'm like, oh, there is an opportunity to scale your work and to have great impact and not just work one to you know, work once along with students or people in the community or what have you.

36:05

And then I finally opened my eyes up to starting this, this coaching and consulting business.

36:11

So I kind of just took everything that I knew and was doing already people already reaching out to me about certain things anyway so like, well, let me just like legitimize this and put it into into a business.

36:23

And then, as I began to learn more about the coaching industry, started to, of course, put some of those business practice into play.

36:32

And then I started out as a side hustle.

36:35

So let me be very clear about that I didn't just like take the leaves and, you know, leave my job, initially, started out very much as a side hustle and then continue to work in tech for two and a half years and then earlier this year I left that position in that organization and went full time into the business.

37:03

So so that's kind of how that journey was.

37:06

A little bit of a winding road, but all things lead to the greatness, I guess.

37:13

Yes, and congratulations on going full time this year.

37:16

That is, I feel like that's so many people's dream, or?

37:19

it's a lot of people's dream and to be able to actually realize it and to do so in a way that you know, to me feels really organic.

37:26

Like the journey was, you know, pieces just kind of built upon each other, despite you know the very shadyness of you not getting that position, but it was all for the better, because you're now able to do your own thing and to use your scholarship and your research and your expertise in the way that you want to and not in the way that someone else wants you to.

37:49

So I'm glad everything worked out.

37:51

So, as we wrap up our discussion today, we'd like to ask all of our guests on the Curiousness Podcast two final questions.

37:59

One is if you had to do your doctoral journey all over again, for some very strange reason, what is one thing that you would do differently?

38:09

Yeah, probably one thing I would say this but I would hire an editor and I know that sounds very small and like well, but even in all the life experiences that was happening and kind of, you know, pushing me one way or the other, I honestly wouldn't take that back, like I think that was what I needed at the time.

38:30

But when I think back to you know, that time it would be hire an editor.

38:36

And the reason why I say that is because there's a typo on my first page in my dissertation and it drives me bonkers Anytime someone tells me I read your dissertation, which is such an honor, right, like I get these emails every now and then, or text message in the oh my God, I came in part of your work and it's so great.

38:56

But then in my mind I'm like, do they see the typo?

38:58

Like, so of course I looked over the million times, but when you're looking at the same words all the time, you just you miss things.

39:10

Right, and I had other people look at it too, but for whatever reason, you know, of course, once it was published I go back and look through it and it's staring at me in the face.

39:20

So all that to say, invest in an editor?

39:22

So then she don't have to.

39:25

Then you have to have that experience that I'm having and then also me don't go looking at my dissertation to find the typo.

39:33

That's the fucking typo. Well, if it makes you feel any better, my dissertation also has typos in it and I actually I not only have a typo, I have a sentence that like just doesn't finish, it, just like ends midway.

39:49

It makes no sense whatsoever. So I completely feel you, but you know, what's most important is that it's done.

39:56

It's done, it was behind us, even if it's not perfect.

40:00

But yeah, I also have my dissertation that's riddled with typos and like I don't know what page that sentence is on.

40:08

No one has no one else has talked about it, but I know there's a random unfinished sentence.

40:12

Yeah, no one's that new to me either, but I know.

40:18

But yeah, okay, so what is but we have those blasters, so we're gonna have we are, and that is what matters At the end of the day.

40:24

That is all that matters. So what is one final piece of advice that you have for current or prospective black women and non-binary folks who are working on getting their doctoral degree, thinking about getting their doctoral degree?

40:36

What's some one last piece of advice that you have for them?

40:40

Yeah, this may sound very cliche, but And so, you know, because I want a doctor in front of people to call me doctor, or because I don't know like, just know, like why you are doing it, and I think about the kind of superficial reason why you know someone might, may, want a PhD or EDD or doctoral degree, I tell people, people come to me all the time, like I'm thinking about a PhD, I'm thinking about you know, pursuing my doctorate.

41:38

Like can we talk? And I'm like, yes, and I'm like why do you want to do this?

41:41

Yeah, and especially because a lot of people are coming from the higher ed field, where it feels like this is natural, this is what I'm supposed to do, sort of thing, and the reality is that, in terms of needing a PhD, in many fields it's not necessary, right?

41:57

Like, just be very, you know. So if it means pertinent to your field, then yes, I get it Like you have to do what you have to do.

42:04

But be mindful of that and I think it's important to really consider that because, again, it's taking time from yourself, it's taking time from your family.

42:13

For rest of your children, I always say, if someone is partnered like, talk to your partner about that decision, because it's going to affect them just as much as it affects you.

42:22

If your children are old enough to understand, talk to them as well about how their life is going to change too while you're going through this, and that you're going to need support through that.

42:30

So ensuring that you have the support through that but it is not a small decision to make, it is huge and make sure that you can kind of be able to identify what is the angle of your getting a PhD.

42:43

You know, I find a lot of times, particularly for black women, as we all know, the statistics say black women are the most educated and you know that's a great.

42:54

You know calculate to have and statistic.

42:56

However, a lot of times that is kind of tied into a state of a trauma, right, like because we don't want to feel like we.

43:05

You know no one can take it away from us or we have to prove ourselves over and over again right, and if that's kind of what is at the core of your decision, then I just ask that you really think through why am I doing this?

43:19

Because you are enough just as you are, and if you're pursuing a PhD, it's for someone to validate that in you, then, like it's really not worth it.

43:29

So that would be my last piece of advice regarding particularly for prospective doctoral students like really think through, why am I doing this?

43:40

I wow, such great advice.

43:42

Thank you so much, dr Wiggins, for joining us on the Cohort SysS Podcast, for sharing your journey to the doctoral degree and for giving especially, as you mentioned, for prospective students or even students who are kind of early on in the journey and kind of thinking through why am I here?

43:57

You know, make sure that you actually take the time to figure out why you're pursuing your doctoral degree and make sure that you're doing it for the right reasons.

44:03

I think that is completely invaluable advice.

44:06

So thank you so much again for sharing your story and your journey with us.

44:11

Of course, thank you for having me, so it's great to be here.

44:24

Thank you again for listening to this week's episode of the Cohort SysS Podcast.

44:28

If you are a black woman interested in joining the Cohort SysS membership community or you're looking for more information on how to support or partner with Cohort SysS, please visit our website at wwwcohortsysscom.

44:41

You can also find us on all social media platforms at Cohort Sisters.

44:46

Don't forget to subscribe to the Cohort Sisters podcast and leave us a quick review wherever you're listening.

44:52

Thank you so much for joining us this week and we'll catch you in next week's episode.