0:03

Jay Wonder Wallace's a cold case homicide

0:05

detective who's been investigating cold case murders

0:07

and Los Angeles County for over a

0:09

decade. His work has been featured on

0:11

Fox News, Dateline, in Court Tv. Now

0:13

we join him as he pleases investigative

0:15

skills to making a case of christianity.

0:19

Welcome back to the Cold Case Crushing the

0:21

podcast I'm Gay One Wallace Well how many

0:23

times have you heard somewhere quote Cs Lewis

0:25

and a Pod Gas or in a book?

0:28

I mean some of the best quotes that

0:30

people site for me. They.

0:32

Don't even realize I'm sending those from Louis.

0:34

although I quoted Louis in the book that

0:36

they are, They don't see the quote I

0:38

guess or the attribution and so they end

0:41

up calling with it he gives me. But

0:43

I'm just. Quoting. Louis. Well

0:45

I think that kind of copying that

0:47

kind of citation. That kind of citing

0:49

people is of great form of flattery.

0:52

and I've noticed that over the last

0:54

see a Ears are training model had

0:56

to move from teaching. The training has

0:59

been copied by a number of people

1:01

who are now cited. It won't good,

1:03

I hope that it has been helpful.

1:05

I saw that dumb Tim Barnett at

1:08

To Stand To Reason just started that

1:10

just redid the series. The. Draining.

1:12

Model Series for stand to reason last

1:15

year. while this podcast I'm about to

1:17

play for you are going back. and

1:19

Twenty Twenty Four through all the party

1:21

gas over the last decade that are

1:23

on our Rss feed, that deed be

1:25

updated that are no longer available to

1:27

you guys are making them available to

1:29

you again. And this is probably the

1:32

first times is over a decade ago

1:34

that I talked about this training model

1:36

publicly. So you're getting very broad kind

1:38

of early intuitions about what Brett Congo

1:40

and I were doing on our trips.

1:42

Up to Berkeley and how we were

1:44

training students rather than just teaching students.

1:46

So you're going to get a first

1:49

view of it here. I then it

1:51

ended up writing about it in my

1:53

book Forensic Faith and Twenty Seventeen and

1:55

then wrote about it again and so

1:57

the next generation will know but would.

1:59

great detail. And twenty nineteen. By that

2:01

time we already had all the it. We'd done

2:03

it so many times that it had become. A

2:07

formula and so if you'd buy that books

2:09

than so the next generation will know you

2:11

get a chance to see what it looks

2:13

like. It's a in much more details your

2:15

it's for example of planning your own trip.

2:17

Immersive trip you'll see those are really described

2:19

in detail in that book anyway it's of.

2:21

this is the first time I think I

2:24

talk about it publicly is in this podcast

2:26

which is pretty oh but I hope it

2:28

will be a blessing to you. Our.

2:46

Are you ready to examine the evidence that the

2:48

seen a D. Welcome

2:51

to the Cold Case Christianity. Podcast:

2:53

the only Christian case making

2:55

podcast hosted. By a cookies

2:58

homicide detective. He

3:02

was your host. Day one or. More

3:19

here we are once again at the Cold

3:21

Case Christianity Podcast Expert joining us. I'm J

3:23

One Wallace or this we cannot a little

3:25

bit about our conversation I had recently with

3:28

a friend who's on a staff at church

3:30

a local church here and he's when alert

3:32

leaders in the church and he's experienced at

3:35

a good the frustration his own personal frustration

3:37

of you know you can imagine if you

3:39

are on a church staff at he came

3:41

from a different career path altogether I'd probably

3:44

if you left your old career to take

3:46

a position on a church death is because

3:48

you're passionate. About the Church: You're passionate

3:50

about Christianity. You're passionate about church leadership.

3:52

Any number of these are things might

3:54

drive used to be part of it,

3:56

your staff and and of course once

3:58

you're there. you find that the

4:00

large part of what you're doing as a leader in the

4:02

church is trying

4:05

to overcome apathy on the

4:07

part of your members. And

4:09

you know it's sometimes I think we kind

4:12

of expect that we're going to leave our

4:14

regular jobs

4:16

and join a church staff and become

4:19

involved in a place that's going to

4:21

be just overflowing with passion and energy

4:23

and people who are excited about their

4:25

Christian walk. And of course many people

4:27

on the staff are, but

4:30

typically what we're doing as church leaders is trying

4:32

to help people

4:34

to see the relevance of Christianity in

4:36

their own lives. People who are more

4:38

than willing to come and join

4:40

us on Sunday and compartmentalize

4:42

a lot of what that church experience is

4:45

about, yet may not

4:47

kind of see how it can overflow

4:50

and color every aspect of their lives

4:52

until it's the filter through which they

4:54

see everything and

4:57

every decision they make, every experience

5:00

they experience is now

5:02

seen through the filter of their

5:04

Christian worldview. They have been completely

5:06

transformed. Now I see this

5:08

as I travel around the country and get a

5:10

chance to speak at different venues, that

5:13

for a lot of us, not so much here

5:15

in Southern California, that has been my experience as

5:17

much in Southern California, but in places in the South

5:20

and we've certainly talked about this on the podcast in

5:22

the past, Christianity can

5:24

sometimes become a culture rather

5:26

than a thoughtful,

5:29

intentional decision

5:32

about how it is we are to live and who it is

5:34

we are to trust. And

5:36

so you see that for a lot of my friends in the South,

5:38

a lot of my family in the South, a

5:41

church is really just a cultural phenomenon. They

5:43

attend church, but they

5:45

for the most part don't really know

5:48

how to defend what they believe or why

5:50

that would even be important. And I know I've said it a

5:52

number of times, but sometimes in some of these settings across the

5:54

country, you have to make a case for

5:56

case making before you can actually make a

5:58

case for Christian. You have to kind of

6:01

insert some energy and

6:03

some passion in what you're doing because a lot

6:05

of time when you're working in these different venues,

6:08

these different churches around the country, you realize

6:10

there's not a lot of energy,

6:12

not a lot of passion in some of

6:15

these groups. I hate to say that, but

6:17

I'm sure every church, and you probably have

6:19

experiences wherever you are too, there's always some

6:21

percentage of the church that's on fire, and

6:23

that's why the church continues to grow. And

6:26

then there's some percentage of the church that really need to be

6:28

motivated in some way, need to be encouraged. And

6:31

so what I want to do today

6:33

is kind of help you, if you're

6:35

in that group, like many of us

6:37

who are energetic, for example, if you're

6:39

choosing to listen to an apologetics or

6:42

a Christian podcast, I'm already preaching to

6:44

the choir. But I do

6:46

know you probably experience, like I do, a

6:48

bit of frustration that you can't seem to

6:50

motivate your small group, or you can't seem

6:52

to energize some of the people who go

6:54

to church on Sunday, or you wonder why

6:56

something important needs to be done. The same

6:59

20 people are constantly volunteering to do this

7:01

at the church, and it's always like the 20-80

7:03

principle. 20% of the people are actually motivated to

7:05

do the work that the other 80% would be to benefit

7:08

from or are just standing around and watching you

7:10

do. Now, I get that,

7:12

and all of us kind of experience that same

7:14

thing to one degree or another. And

7:17

so a lot of this is, I mean,

7:19

last night I was training for Berkeley, another

7:23

trip that's being taken by Brett. By

7:25

the way, sometimes we talk

7:27

about these Berkeley trips and

7:29

Utah trips, and a lot of us are taking

7:31

these kinds of trips. I know I do these

7:34

regularly, but I'm not leading these. I

7:36

usually jump in as a trainer. I'm happy

7:39

to be a co-leader. But

7:41

for the most part, these are being led by pastors

7:44

who are engaging us to go along for the

7:46

ride to help them out, as

7:48

pastors do the heavy lifting with their students

7:50

on these trips. Of

7:52

the two or three people I know today who are

7:54

doing these kinds of trips, and they really come down

7:56

to Brett Kunkel, Sean McDowell,

7:59

and us. who are engaged

8:01

in training and Alan Schliemann also from Stand to Reason,

8:03

we'll work on these as well. It's

8:06

Brett who is doing the most

8:09

work with this who is really has

8:11

been leading the way and

8:13

we kind of met each other early in this process.

8:15

Brett Kunkel and I from Stand to Reason kind of

8:17

met each other early in this process. You know we

8:19

I was a youth pastor he had just stopped being

8:21

a youth pastor and was now working with Stand to

8:23

Reason and so we kind of

8:26

our trajectory is kind of crossed and

8:28

we started to develop an approach toward

8:30

training rather than teaching that kind

8:32

of caught on with us and people who are

8:34

around us who were watching what we were doing

8:36

like Sean eventually jumped into the

8:38

process as well. So when

8:40

I talk about taking Utah trips or Berkeley trips

8:43

I just want to be careful that I want

8:45

to point you always back to the guy who

8:47

I respect who does more of these trips than

8:50

anyone else I know and I don't think

8:52

anyone's going to catch him. That's Brett Kunkel.

8:55

So I kind of feel like hey I'm lucky to

8:57

have Brett in my life and I'm proud to call

9:00

him a brother but I also want

9:02

to make sure that when I talk about these

9:04

kinds of trips that you know who the master

9:06

that the Zen master of Berkeley trips is it

9:09

has been Brett who you know granted when

9:11

we first do a Utah trip I was

9:14

the first one to approach him and say hey I'd

9:17

like to take a trip in which we

9:19

kind of teach our kids about atheism and

9:21

philosophy and and challenge him in that direction

9:23

and together we developed the very first Berkeley

9:25

trip and we led that kind of co-led

9:27

that first trip but since that time Brett

9:29

has taken I don't know how many dozens

9:31

of church groups to Berkeley and Utah and

9:33

continues to do that so if you're somebody

9:35

who's listening to this podcast and you are

9:38

anywhere near California and you're thinking I want to

9:40

do something like that I mean

9:42

Brett's been in Colorado he's done them

9:44

here in California at UC Berkeley you

9:46

need to go hold of Brett and kind

9:48

of explore that possibility it's worth your time

9:50

now I've learned a few things training

9:53

young people that I think will

9:55

actually help you if not

9:58

if you're if you're working in a local church and

10:00

you're just a Christian who's interested in how you can

10:02

grow the kingdom and you're thinking well I'm not really

10:04

working with youth groups. Okay I get that. If you're

10:06

working with a youth group I think you have direct

10:08

application immediately but if you're not working with a youth

10:11

group and you're just attending a small group in your

10:13

church or you're involved in some of their ministry in

10:15

your church or you're just sharing what you believe with

10:17

your kids, I still think

10:19

that these principles that we've learned taking the

10:21

Utah and Berkeley trips will help you to

10:24

energize, to kind of remove

10:27

apathy, to engage the

10:30

believers you have in your life in a powerful

10:32

way. Also and we've

10:35

talked about this, I think that the stuff

10:37

that Peter Bogosian writes about in his book,

10:39

A Manual for Creating Atheists and we talked

10:41

about this last week I think that he's

10:43

misrepresented a number of Christian apologists who have

10:45

not written good things about him. He's

10:47

kind of taken those words out of context and used

10:49

them on his Amazon page because most

10:52

of us who are doing

10:54

this work, we're making the

10:56

same observations about the Christian

10:58

culture that Bogosian's making and

11:01

so we write about those things. Not

11:03

to say that atheism is the way

11:06

and atheism is true and all Christians

11:08

can be easily converted to atheism if

11:10

they take this approach. Just to

11:12

say that we see the same

11:14

kinds of apathy and anti-intellectualism in the

11:16

church that are kind of ripe for

11:19

picking if you take an approach. So

11:22

we're both trying to reach the same group. Bogosian

11:24

and his disciples are trying to reach the same

11:26

group that all of us as

11:28

Christian casemakers are trying to reach. Those

11:31

Christians in the church who prior

11:33

to now have not taken a serious,

11:35

evidential or intellectual approach to their faith

11:37

and if you ask them why

11:40

do you believe this is true, they

11:42

would give you an answer that sounds

11:44

much like your Mormon friends. It's not

11:46

based on an evidential investigation. It's based

11:48

instead on a certain experience or feeling

11:50

they have or a comfort zone or

11:52

a sense of community. Any number

11:54

of things that your Mormon friends could say is

11:57

typically what I hear and this is why I started this

11:59

story talking about. at Berkeley training last night as

12:01

I'm training a group, the next group that's going

12:03

to be going with Brett here in about a

12:05

month, and I'm involved in training that group as

12:07

well. And I'm there talking

12:10

to about 35 students, and I just wanted to

12:12

start off by pushing their buttons a little bit,

12:14

and I simply asked them, why are you

12:16

a Christian? And

12:20

do you know those 35 students, only three raise their hands?

12:23

Only three were willing to even offer the

12:25

reason why they are a Christian. And

12:29

as these three, I said, great, how many

12:31

why? Their

12:33

responses were virtually identical to what

12:35

my Mormon family would say. And

12:39

I'll bet you if you ran that test yourself in your

12:41

own church groups, your own small

12:43

group, your own family, your own kids,

12:46

I wonder if they would fare much better,

12:48

if they would sound any different. Or if

12:51

their response would be something experiential. You

12:53

know, I just feel like my life's been changed since I've

12:55

been a Christian. Well, that's what my

12:58

Mormon family would say. And

13:00

I feel like I talk to God and God

13:02

is involved in my life, and I feel like

13:04

I have a close relationship with God. And I

13:06

feel like I'm a better person because of my

13:08

relationship with God. And I

13:11

feel like I just know it's true.

13:13

My parents raised me in this, or

13:16

I came to this as a teenager, whatever the thing

13:18

is, it started to sound like the same kinds of

13:20

things I would hear from my Mormon family. So

13:23

I simply asked, well, as Christians, we don't

13:25

think that Mormonism is true. So

13:28

if you catch yourself kind of responding like a Mormon

13:30

would respond, maybe you need to think about the depth

13:32

of your convictions and what it is, why it is

13:35

you think this is true. And

13:37

by the way, I think

13:39

that Mormons, when confronted on the

13:41

evidential insufficiency of their belief system,

13:43

are far more likely to stay

13:46

Mormons than

13:48

Christians who are confronted with the

13:51

claim of an atheist about the

13:53

evidential sufficiency of Christianity. I

13:57

think that the community, the culture

13:59

of Mormonism... is far

14:01

more deeply ingrained in Mormons than the

14:03

culture of Christianity is ingrained in young

14:06

Christians. And so I

14:08

think that young Mormons are far more likely to

14:10

turn to death. As a matter of fact, they're

14:12

trained early and they're trained frequently that they're going

14:14

to be attacked by the world and

14:16

that they are to basically turn a deaf ear to that,

14:18

to not trust any of that. So

14:21

they are inoculated early, or really not

14:23

inoculated, but kind of isolated, kind of

14:25

prepared. And they're told early that

14:27

there's these anti-Mormons out there who are just

14:29

going to shake your face, and they are

14:32

from Satan. And so the

14:35

defense, the mechanism by which they hold on

14:37

to what they believe, I think is far

14:39

stronger. Their sense of community is far deeper.

14:41

If you're in Utah, for example, oh my

14:44

gosh, I think that most people who

14:46

are Mormons, who kind of come to a position where

14:48

they're not quite sure this is true anymore, are not

14:50

going to leave the church over it. It'd

14:53

be like leaving your family, or leaving your identity.

14:56

You might just be quiet. You

14:59

might kind of go along but not believe it, but

15:02

you're not going to jump out. So

15:04

I think that we actually don't even survive

15:06

as well, or fare as well, as my Mormon

15:08

family, when confronted by somebody

15:10

who makes a claim against us, or

15:12

makes an evidential proposition

15:15

that seems to run against what

15:17

we believe. And

15:19

so that's why I think it's important for us to get

15:21

excited, to get passionate. And if you're excited and

15:23

passionate, and you want to transfer that passion to

15:25

the people around you who are Christians, I've got

15:27

a strategy I think may help you, and we'll

15:29

talk about that right after the break. Jim

15:46

posts new videos on his YouTube page all the

15:48

time. If

15:51

you want to become a better Christian casemaker,

15:53

learn how to respond to the objections of

15:55

atheists, or learn about Jim's cold

15:57

cases, visit the Cold Case Christian.

16:00

www.britaini.com website and click the YouTube link at

16:02

the top of the home page. Now

16:08

Brett and I have a talk over here, when we

16:11

travel from the church of church, it's called Who's

16:13

Waiting for Your Kids? Now that's Brett's talk, there's

16:16

no doubt about it. And I was asked one

16:18

time, I think Brett was busy, he couldn't do

16:20

something and couldn't make a certain engagement.

16:22

So they asked me to fill in for Brett.

16:24

And these are materials, these are ideas that we

16:26

together have been talking about and teaching, not necessarily

16:29

under that title, for a number of years to

16:31

different groups. And it's kind of an

16:33

outline of the strategy we take in these Berkeley trips

16:35

and these Utah trips, you know, while

16:37

we take these trips, it's all of our thinking condensed

16:40

into one talk. And so he and I have

16:42

kind of formulated two different versions of this talk

16:44

of Who's Waiting for Your Kids? And although we

16:47

may share some statistical stuff early in our talks,

16:49

at some point these kind of go in two

16:51

different ways because each of us is a little

16:53

bit different in how we prepare young people. And

16:55

I think the strategy that I would try to

16:57

use with young people to get them ready for

17:00

their time in college is really the same strategy

17:02

I take with adults to get them energized, to

17:04

get them up off their butt and willing to

17:06

actually live a faith differently, to trust in their

17:08

faith in a different way, to be able to

17:10

defend what they believe in a different way than

17:12

they had prior. So although I've been writing

17:15

about it all week, and some of you don't listen

17:17

to my blogs, or read my blogs rather, and you

17:19

only listen to podcasts, and that's great. And so what

17:21

I'm going to do right now is I'm going to

17:23

take some time to kind of walk through that process

17:25

with you, the five steps that I try to take,

17:28

the five principles that I try to embrace as

17:30

I turn a corner with people and get them engaged

17:33

and excited about the case for

17:35

Christianity. I'll try to

17:37

add some things today that I typically wouldn't

17:39

put in a blog, but if you're not

17:41

somebody who listens to or reads blogs rather,

17:44

you're not going to get it there, but you just

17:46

know they are online in the youth

17:48

section at coldcasechristianity.com. Okay, having said that,

17:51

there's an acronym that I typically use

17:53

as part of this talk, and

17:55

I've spent enough time here, I won't go over

17:58

it again, the difference between teaching and training. is

18:00

the key is that

18:02

typically we've got great teachers in the church

18:05

but this teaching seems to be compartmentalized

18:08

in the sense that you'll

18:10

go to church on Sunday and hear a great teaching,

18:12

hear a great lesson and then

18:14

almost of us struggle to be living that out

18:17

to be thinking about that to be to be

18:19

incorporating that in our lives and by Wednesday we

18:21

might as well not even have heard it. If

18:23

I asked for example have

18:25

you ever kept notes from sermons in your

18:27

book in your Bible? A lot

18:29

of us do right? If

18:32

you go back and I was to quiz you

18:34

from your notes from last week I

18:36

wonder how well most of us would do. If

18:39

I go back two weeks ago and just asked you what

18:41

was the topic? I

18:44

mean this is just the way it is I mean those

18:46

of us who are teaching in the church I think we

18:48

most recognize for the most part that people

18:51

don't remember what we teach and that's why

18:53

we teach the same things over and over and over and over

18:55

again right you have to because people don't hold on because

18:58

they're not we're not training folks

19:00

for a battle they're facing every day

19:02

we're just teaching them something I'm parting

19:04

some knowledge that they forget over the

19:06

course of the week and we've got

19:08

to find a way to energize our

19:10

people and so this training acronym that

19:13

I use T-R-A-I-N I think will be

19:15

helpful to help you engage people in

19:17

your life including your own children and

19:20

if you're youth leader it's certainly your students and

19:23

if you're just somebody who's thinking about oh gosh

19:25

I sometimes suffer from apathy well

19:28

then this is an application that will also help

19:30

you so the T in

19:32

train is for testing and this

19:34

is the first thing we do with

19:36

our groups right as we we role

19:39

play we challenge students so we can

19:41

expose their weakness and

19:43

that's a real critical part it's probably the most

19:46

important thing we do and

19:48

so if you're somebody who's finally

19:50

growing apathetic in your own view

19:52

about Christianity you need

19:55

to challenge yourself what you're not paying attention apparently

19:57

to the culture and the challenges that are facing

19:59

us just reading the paper, start

20:01

reading the blogs. I just

20:03

put an entire list of bloggers on Cold

20:07

Case Christianity and I just

20:10

type in tent-making. And

20:12

you'll see the list of

20:15

tent-makers that I've given

20:17

you. And their blogs are impressive

20:19

in the sense that because they're, first of all, people

20:21

just like you and me who have a day job

20:23

and they're just tent-makers, that's cool enough. But what's really

20:26

impressive about it is that

20:28

the degree to which they highlight

20:30

the challenges, there's good content on

20:33

those blogs. And these

20:35

are folks who are paying attention to the culture and responding

20:37

to the things they're seeing in the culture. And

20:39

there's some good stuff to see. So if you're

20:41

starting to grow apathetic, it's because you're not testing

20:43

yourself anymore. And if the group you're with is

20:45

apathetic, it's because you aren't taking the time to

20:48

challenge them. And so that's why every

20:50

talk I start with I first offer

20:52

the challenge. Why should we do this

20:54

talk? Why should you care about this?

20:57

Well, let me show what the opposition

20:59

is saying about you. Let me tell you

21:01

what the opposition is saying about the scripture. Let

21:04

me show what the culture is buying now about

21:07

what Christians believe or supposedly believe and

21:09

about the nature of Christian scripture or Christian worldview.

21:12

It's not pretty and you need to see how

21:14

ugly it is so you'll have some motivation to

21:16

pay attention now because I'm going to give you

21:18

a way to solve this problem. But if we

21:21

don't see the problem first, we're not inclined to

21:23

look for a solution. So

21:25

the first thing I'm trying to do

21:27

is expose the problem and expose the

21:29

weaknesses of the group I'm with in

21:31

responding to that problem. And

21:34

so whenever I work with a group for any extended period

21:36

of time, even like last night

21:38

where I've got a three hour session, that

21:41

first 45 minutes is going to

21:43

be me pushing buttons, pushing

21:45

back, challenging why do you believe

21:47

this is true, offering objections

21:49

that I'm going to address in the next two hours.

21:53

But You have to be tested the same way. I've often

21:55

said, you know, we have that bar that I talked about

21:57

on I think what's before here on the podcast. In

22:00

our town that was always haven't bar fights as

22:02

a biker bar in your costs? I haven't bar

22:04

fights and every time of year treaty and your

22:06

Ft always with you you get a call to

22:08

the earth that this any called the city for

22:10

some other cars to respond to that bar fight

22:12

off your your training car your ft it was

22:14

going to make sure that you handle that call.

22:17

Is he wants to see if you can? Actually you

22:19

know take your yourself. Just gonna barf. I want to

22:22

see the our see what walls can do. The

22:24

city can hold out your hold his own. Since.

22:27

Oh he had to test young officers as if

22:29

you can't do that kind of job you not

22:31

Discipline I could have to be. Do do law

22:33

enforcement ice by another career It he can't walk

22:35

into that situation. Take control, Stop the fight. Get

22:37

it all controls. Do it is be done. Take

22:40

to Giovanni, go to jail, call the paramedics, his

22:42

be treated whatever it is. If you can't have

22:44

that kind of presence of mind. You

22:46

should be doing their jobs and if

22:48

we also need a similarly tests the

22:51

people that were hanging out with. If.

22:53

They're young students or there in our small get

22:55

whatever it is we need to see. Are they

22:57

capable? Don't even know what the probes arts to

22:59

the even as a fight in that bar to

23:01

begin with. And then. How

23:04

they handle it and when

23:07

they see their own decision.

23:09

see. that's when passion rises.

23:11

People get passionate. Once.

23:13

They see how poorly they're performing

23:15

and they will improve that. They

23:18

wanna do better and now you've raised the passion,

23:20

you've raised the interest and you're ready to go

23:22

on to the next step for step testing. As

23:24

for the T stance, with take a Break to

23:26

Mack, I'll give you the next step in the

23:29

process. Interested

23:35

in bringing gym tier, church or conference?

23:39

Gym is available as speaker and

23:42

regularly travels across the country. Training

23:44

camp centerpiece. Me: if

23:49

you're interested in learning how to defend what

23:51

you believe had examiner to cure the evidence

23:54

powerfully and how to make a difference for

23:56

the kinda contact gym seem to speaker fresh

23:58

page at full speed the next

24:00

thing you've

24:07

got to do is the R in the

24:09

training acronym. T is the test, R is

24:11

for require. And I think you've got to

24:13

expect more of your fellow Christians, whether they're

24:16

students you're training or people in your small

24:18

group or even yourself. You've got

24:20

to expect more than you think you can handle and

24:22

more than you think they can handle. This is particularly

24:24

true with young people, right? Because you see all the

24:27

time that youth

24:30

groups are kind of inclined toward a fun-loving, you know,

24:32

I mean I just had an email from a friend

24:34

of mine who blogs with us all the time and

24:36

he's involved in a youth group and he's there the

24:38

first couple of weeks and he's watching what the youth

24:40

pastor is doing and he realizes pretty quickly this is

24:42

a lot of fellowship, a lot

24:44

of fun. And just about 25% of

24:47

this entire morning is going to be spent teaching anything

24:49

at all. And

24:51

so what are the proper proportions,

24:53

you know, worship to fellowship and

24:55

fun and then message, what proportions

24:57

are the Sunday service all about?

25:00

Well, this is something each of us has

25:02

got to struggle with, okay? But I can

25:04

tell you this, and this is

25:06

what big churches do too, right? You know, are you

25:08

in a seeker-sensitive church? Are you in a

25:11

church that kind of says, okay, no message needs to

25:13

go more than 30 minutes? Are

25:15

you in a church that says, you know, gosh,

25:17

you know, don't go too heavy, don't challenge too

25:19

much? I mean, every church struggles to find

25:21

balance in this area, but most

25:24

seem to fault toward an immediacy,

25:26

a simplicity of message.

25:30

You know, when

25:33

we were meeting in our house church, those

25:35

meetings didn't last anything less than two hours period. We couldn't

25:38

get out of there in less than two hours because

25:41

we're going to raise the bar so high. And what I

25:43

discovered is I don't care who it is in that room,

25:45

if it's a 10-year-old child

25:47

of someone, one of our members,

25:49

or if it's a 65-year-old member,

25:52

everyone was willing to raise the

25:54

bar. Once they were challenged first,

25:57

saw their weaknesses, and were passionate

25:59

about doing... better about making about

26:01

being able to survive

26:03

better to be able to respond better

26:05

if they were passionate if

26:07

we raise the bar for them and their

26:09

passion they were willing to raise the bar

26:11

in terms of content how much they were

26:13

willing to sit and listen and train and

26:15

learn so I think

26:17

part of this is that we've got to have

26:19

higher expectations for ourselves when's

26:22

the last time you read a book that stretched you

26:25

I mean a book where you opened it up and

26:28

you know I'm not even sure I can understand some

26:30

of this language look I'm preparing I'm reading every month

26:32

right to write a chapter several

26:34

chapters in a new book that I'm getting ready to do

26:36

in the end of the year and

26:38

the topics are demanding and

26:41

so each chapter requires me to read like 10 books

26:44

and the worst part about it is is these books are

26:47

way over my head I mean they're way

26:49

over my head because they're in disciplines that aren't

26:51

native to me okay and

26:54

and so I sometimes wear me

26:56

out but I

26:58

know that that stretch of having to

27:00

read things three or four times and

27:02

really stretch and find ways to retranslate

27:05

these concepts it's good for me and

27:08

it's good for you and it's fun and it's

27:10

exciting you feel like you're growing in some way

27:12

you're going in your knowledge and you're growing your

27:14

ability to kind of re communicate these ideas I

27:17

wonder how often I mean before this if I wasn't

27:19

writing a book would I be willing to stretch myself

27:22

like this probably not I'm

27:24

lazy you know

27:26

especially during football season right I mean you

27:29

get to watch games on Sunday I mean those are days that

27:31

I for the most part I'm lucky if I'm gonna do two

27:33

hours of anything other than what football so

27:36

I think this is one of the things you've

27:38

got to help yourself do is you've got to

27:40

raise the bar yourself stretch yourself and you've got

27:42

to help others raise the bar don't ever think

27:45

I mean look this is a bit of a

27:47

skill set I guess but I always feel like

27:49

there's a way to talk about

27:51

any kind of demanding content if I

27:53

just know how to present it so

27:56

when I'm working with young people and if I've

27:58

talked given the same time ten times, I'm

28:02

looking to see are young people grabbing

28:04

it? Are students catching the ball I'm

28:06

throwing? And I'm looking

28:08

for apathy. As I'm looking

28:10

in that group, if it's a group or an audience,

28:13

I'm looking to see where is the apathy in

28:15

the group. Because apparently I'm

28:17

stinking here in this particular area of

28:19

my talk because that apathy is showing.

28:21

They seem disinterested. That's on me. The

28:25

information I'm dealing with I think is engaging

28:28

in us. It's

28:30

important. It's critical. And if

28:32

the audience I'm talking to appears

28:34

to be apathetic about it, it's because I'm

28:36

not delivering it properly. That's

28:38

on me. I used to always

28:40

say that I'm looking for the person who's least interested in

28:42

the audience and that's the guy or gal I'm talking to.

28:45

And I have not succeeded until that person is in

28:48

the game with me. And

28:50

so I think a lot of us, we've got to

28:52

raise the bar. And by the way, you'll recognize that

28:54

the bar's a lot higher than you think. And it's

28:57

actually students and your family,

28:59

your own children, the people you're at church

29:01

with, they are willing to embrace a higher

29:03

bar more than you think they are right

29:05

now. And you realize it

29:07

after your five year old is now 15

29:09

and for the last 10 years

29:11

you didn't think he was even paying attention.

29:14

But he has some concept now in

29:16

his belt under

29:19

his grasp that you didn't think he was even

29:21

paying attention to. Young people can

29:23

do this. The people you're in church with, you

29:26

can raise the bar. Encourage your pastors to raise

29:28

the bar. That's going to

29:30

force them though to become better communicators.

29:33

But isn't that what we want to be? To be

29:35

forced to be better, to become better at what we

29:37

do? It is true that as

29:40

you raise the bar, you're going to have to raise

29:42

your ability to communicate. And

29:44

so that's true for you too. If you feel like, I

29:46

can never, whenever I talk about these issues with the people

29:48

I'm in the church with, they don't even seem to care.

29:50

I mean, I heard that today from

29:52

somebody. Well, it's

29:55

because you're not communicating it well. I hate to say that. That's

29:57

been my own experience when I'm talking to people who don't seem to

29:59

care. care, that's on me. I

30:02

haven't engaged them in some way. I haven't presented

30:04

the challenge. I haven't contextualized. I haven't used

30:06

stories from my own life or from my own experience

30:09

to help make this interesting. I haven't done the things

30:11

that are necessary so I can raise the bar as

30:13

high as I want and people are still with me.

30:17

Think about that before you start to raise the bar

30:19

for yourself or for the people in your life. You're

30:21

going to have to become a better communicator and that's

30:23

important. So we'll take a break, come back, and I'll

30:25

give you another piece of this model. Want

30:33

to connect with Jim through social media?

30:35

Visit coldcasechristianity.com and click on any

30:38

of the social media links at the top of the

30:40

home page. You

30:44

can follow Jim on Facebook, Twitter,

30:46

Google+, Instagram, LinkedIn, and

30:49

more. Okay,

30:51

we talked about testing and requiring that we're going

30:53

to go to the A in the train acronym.

30:55

It's arming. You have to

30:57

provide the people you're with, whether they're students or

30:59

whatever, with some

31:01

facts. At some point

31:04

after you've taken an approach where you

31:06

test them and then you decide to raise the

31:08

bar, well now it's time to start teaching. It's

31:10

time to start imparting knowledge in a way that

31:12

is applicable to a challenge they're about to face.

31:14

By the way, that's the difference between teaching and

31:16

training. Teaching is imparting knowledge. Training is preparing for

31:19

a battle. So we'll get to that in a

31:21

minute, but what is it we're teaching? What is

31:23

the content of what we are teaching? This

31:25

is where we always talk about the

31:28

difference between isolating and inoculating. That's why

31:30

this is an important distinction. We've talked

31:32

about it here before, but this is

31:34

something you have to do as well. How

31:36

many times do you find yourself not reading the news? It's

31:39

just too depressing. Or

31:42

I heard a really well-known author that I

31:44

was talking to a friend today about this

31:46

as well who said, as I get to

31:48

a certain point in my life, and

31:51

he's written a ton of Christian books, I find

31:53

that I'm just not reading as much. I'm just

31:55

reading my Bible. And so he's kind

31:57

of drawn back a little bit from reading the

31:59

work of other Christian writers and he's

32:01

really focusing more just on reading his

32:04

Bible. And that's great. I mean, there's

32:06

certainly a need for that. But I

32:08

never want to kind of isolate myself so

32:10

much from the world around me that I'm

32:12

not able to address the world around me

32:14

or the concerns that are raised by the

32:16

world around me or the objections that are

32:18

raised by the world around me. I'm not

32:20

interested in isolating myself or my students from

32:23

the harm they may face. I want to

32:25

inoculate them so they can walk into that

32:27

craziness and not be touched by it. They

32:30

can be in it but not of it. And

32:32

that's the difference between isolating and inoculating.

32:36

Isolating says you just, you know, you send your

32:38

kids to Christian environments and to Christian colleges and hope

32:40

they just hold on. Inoculating

32:42

says you expose them to all the

32:45

garbage that they're going to see in

32:47

secular institutions, all the bad poor thinking,

32:49

and you train them up so that

32:51

they are prepared to respond so they

32:53

understand what the objections are. They've

32:55

addressed all of them and walked through all

32:58

of them with you. So now when

33:00

they hear those same old lame objections

33:02

and then they're in university, they're

33:04

going to go, been there, done that, I'm

33:06

over it. I've already talked

33:08

about that. I've already examined that stuff. I

33:10

see the lie coming. So

33:12

I want my students, for

33:15

example, to encounter whatever it is

33:17

that Ermine or Dawkins or Harris

33:19

or Victor Stinger or Hitchens or

33:21

Dennett or Bogos, whatever their training,

33:23

whatever it is they're writing, whatever

33:26

they're proposing, I want my kids

33:28

and my students and my fellow

33:30

Christians to hear it here in

33:32

the context of our journey together,

33:34

our time of training together. I

33:37

want, and I think students are

33:39

prepared and want to hear the truth. They're

33:42

eager to hear the other side. They are capable of so

33:44

much more than we give them credit for. And

33:47

we've got to take the

33:49

lead in showing them what the objections

33:51

are. Don't be afraid of the objections.

33:54

God's not afraid of those objections. It's

33:57

our job to, so I start off by.

34:00

But exposing them to all, by the

34:03

way, if you want to expose others, you

34:06

have to have read yourself. Have

34:09

you read all of them? I mean, have you read

34:11

these writers? It can be tiring sometimes, right? Because you feel like,

34:13

gosh, I've got to read all these people who are making, you

34:15

know, light of or

34:17

critical of or being really aggressively dogmatic

34:20

against Christianity. And it can be kind

34:23

of depressing sometimes. But I mean, the

34:26

best thing I've ever done, I think, in preparing

34:29

as a case maker is to read

34:31

the books of those who disagree with me.

34:35

And a lot of what they say, I think

34:37

some of the stuff they say is absolutely

34:39

spot on in some of their observations about

34:41

the Christian culture or some of the, of

34:43

course, a lot of times they're taking claims

34:45

that they are creating straw men claims of

34:48

what Christians believe. But it helps me

34:50

to see that I sometimes do the same thing in reverse,

34:52

even though I was on that side. I

34:54

have to be careful not to make a straw man claim of

34:56

my own. So I think

34:58

it's really helpful to read what everyone else is

35:00

writing. So

35:02

the first step, if you want to be able

35:04

to do this, to arm others, is

35:07

you have to be aware of what the world

35:09

around us is saying. And

35:12

you can't get that just from blogs of Christians

35:14

who are responding to the atheist. You need

35:16

to go to the atheist directly and

35:19

read what it is they're writing. Then

35:22

you'll be ready to arm yourself and

35:24

arm others to make a case. We're

35:27

almost done. Take a break, come back and give you the next

35:29

piece of this puzzle. Did

35:37

you know Jim has another podcast where he posts

35:39

many of the radio interviews he conducts across the

35:41

country? Visit

35:49

the coldcasechristianity.com website and click the

35:52

link for the Cold Case Christianity

35:54

radio podcast. Follow

36:01

along as Jim engages radio hosts and

36:03

interviewers on a variety of topics and

36:05

be sure to subscribe on iTunes. Okay,

36:10

now here's where I think the work of Brett and

36:13

Kunkel at Stand to Reason is really powerful and

36:15

I hope I've contributed a little bit to his

36:17

thinking on this and I've encouraged him to take

36:19

steps in this direction, but Brett has certainly mastered

36:22

this approach because this is the part

36:24

of the paradigm that I think is

36:26

so critical and is missing right now

36:28

in the culture. Yes,

36:31

we sometimes will test our congregations and we

36:33

will require them to kind of step up

36:35

their game occasionally and we certainly are good

36:37

teachers in the church that can prepare our

36:42

congregations if we simply will take the time to

36:44

hear what the atheists around us and non-believers around

36:46

us are saying, but then we've got

36:48

to take a really crazy step and

36:50

deploy ourselves into the battlefield of ideas

36:52

in some way and as a matter

36:54

of fact, it's that deployment, our getting

36:56

involved, it's setting our, changing our culture

36:59

by changing our calendars that will make

37:01

all the difference. As a matter of

37:03

fact, I don't think any of the

37:05

other stuff is going to matter if

37:07

we don't do this. If

37:09

we don't agree to

37:12

set and calendar bottles, no

37:14

one's ever going to train and

37:17

I use battle language, I don't mean it to

37:19

be aggressive like you know, like Crusades for crying

37:21

out loud. But if we don't think

37:23

about the intellectual challenges that we've got to face eventually,

37:26

we want to make them real for the people we're training.

37:29

We want to put them in places

37:31

of discomfort so they'll train for weeks

37:33

getting ready for the potential discomfort. And

37:37

so this is really what it comes down to.

37:39

If you've ever been in a training position like

37:41

in law enforcement, we constantly are training in defensive

37:43

tactics. That means we're going to basically go on

37:45

a day or two every quarter ourselves, sometimes once

37:47

a year. We're going to go

37:49

to training which is really just about survival. It's

37:53

about wrestling. It's about fighting.

37:56

It's about physical conditioning. have

38:00

a period of time in that training, probably in

38:02

the morning, maybe in the first hour or two,

38:04

in which there'll be some chalkboard discussion. We might

38:06

even start off in a classroom and

38:09

some principles will be outlined on

38:11

the chalkboard. But at

38:13

some point most of this training is going to

38:15

be on math where guys who are much more

38:17

gifted as wrestlers are going to beat the dog's

38:19

knot out of you. That's what's going

38:21

to happen. It's hands-on training

38:24

because everyone knows that the

38:27

chalkboard is only going to get you so far.

38:29

At some point you've got to stop and

38:31

wrestle because you're going to

38:33

learn a lot more that way. As a matter

38:36

of fact, if you know that your survival over

38:38

the next four hours is dependent

38:40

upon what you learned at the chalkboard in the

38:42

first hour, you're going to be

38:44

far more likely to be engaged and paying

38:46

attention to that chalkboard session. This is what

38:48

we experience also as teachers, as Christian teachers.

38:51

If we set up a battle for our

38:53

students and they see the battle coming and

38:55

they know it's about to occur, they will

38:57

pay attention to our teaching. It's

38:59

becoming training. And that's why

39:02

we schedule and if you think, well how do I

39:04

change my church culture? How do I change my youth

39:06

group culture? You don't do it by studying more yourself.

39:08

You've got to do that of course. That's not going

39:10

to get it done on its own. You

39:13

change your culture by changing your calendar.

39:15

You've got to schedule opportunities

39:18

for your group, for yourself. When's

39:20

the last time you scheduled an opportunity

39:22

for yourself to be challenged and to

39:24

engage the opposition? We

39:27

usually shrink from those opportunities. Heck, we

39:29

don't even want to go on message

39:31

boards and engage the opposition. But

39:33

if you know you're going to do that regularly,

39:36

then you're going to have to prepare yourself regularly.

39:38

Now your teaching becomes training and that's why we

39:40

take trips to Utah. We take trips to Berkeley.

39:43

That's why Brett continues to do this

39:45

because he knows his teaching becomes training

39:47

because he's getting students ready for a

39:49

battle, a trip. And

39:52

they're going to have to really man up in order to take care of

39:54

it. There are difficult

39:56

trips. They're not easy.

40:00

some outlines. You can go on the Stand to Reason

40:02

website. There's an Admissions tab there

40:04

under Training and you can see the kinds

40:06

of trips that Brett has. Brett has sure

40:08

posted a lot online where he's

40:10

talked about these kinds of trainings. He's

40:14

giving you examples online of his role-playing.

40:16

I don't typically put role-playing examples online.

40:18

I think I have posted one podcast

40:20

in which either I was role-playing. I

40:23

think I posted one also with Jimmy, my

40:25

son role-playing. But for the most part, the

40:27

best resources I think

40:30

still are Brett's that are online with

40:32

him role-playing either a Mormon or as

40:34

an atheist. So just Google

40:36

that on YouTube and you'll find them there.

40:39

But these are difficult. I mean, they're really, as

40:41

a leader, you have to be committed to a

40:43

much more intensive

40:46

personal effort. They're

40:48

taxing. They just, they wear you out. That's why you

40:50

want to take them once a year. But

40:52

man, they are so worth it. And

40:55

if you don't do that, if you

40:57

don't involve your students in hands-on training

40:59

and hands-on engagement of ideas with people

41:01

who are opposed to their ideas, you're

41:04

never going to take the steps you really want to with

41:07

your group. Now I'm going

41:09

to include before I take a break, let's just

41:11

finish with this because I think an important part

41:13

of this involving students is the last letter

41:16

in the acronym for N for Nurture. You

41:19

test, you require, you arm, you involve,

41:21

and finally you nurture. And you've got

41:23

to tend to the wounds you're going

41:25

to be creating when you take these

41:28

trips. Like I said, they are

41:30

taxing. And that means while you're on a trip

41:32

like this, when you're engaging people

41:34

like this, how many times have you been on a

41:36

message board or on Facebook and you've

41:38

gotten involved in a dialogue

41:41

about issues of faith or Christianity

41:43

and just taken a beating from a bunch

41:45

of atheists that have come on, you know,

41:47

come together and are now challenging you and,

41:49

you know, saying all kinds of things about

41:51

you on Facebook. It's hard, right? And

41:54

if you're thin-skinned, you're about

41:56

to get really, you're going to feel pretty

41:58

bad pretty quickly. I'm

42:00

being treated this way. I can't tell many people have

42:02

come on the fans of please convince me page on

42:05

Facebook and said I need some help over here I

42:07

just mentioned this one thing on my Facebook page and I got

42:09

all these people beating me up can somebody come over here and

42:12

Help me or how do I answer this? How do I answer

42:14

that? I see that a lot

42:16

because people aren't prepared to

42:18

be beat up and That's

42:20

one thing you have to be prepared for

42:22

and I always liken it to a really

42:26

famous cut man named stitch

42:29

is a guy who for the most part if

42:32

you're not a fan of Professional

42:34

fights or the ultimate fighting championship

42:36

You may not know who Jacob

42:38

stitch Duran is but they

42:40

call him stitch and he's a cut man His job basically

42:43

is this you you you get involved in a fight in

42:45

the ring and you go three minutes Whatever it is and

42:47

you come back to your corner. You're a good chance. You're

42:49

gonna have a boo-boo You're gonna

42:51

have a cut you're gonna have a bruise You're gonna

42:53

have some some mess that needs to be tended to

42:55

because I got swelling under my eye I've got to cut

42:57

over my eye. I can't see it all

42:59

the bloods running into my face Well cut man,

43:02

their job is to stop the cut in

43:04

the seconds. They have in between rounds to stop

43:06

the bleeding they basically

43:09

have to patch you up and get you back in the

43:11

fight and Sometimes that's what we

43:13

are as youth leaders. We're like cut men, you know,

43:16

and that's what we are as we even as parents

43:19

Our kids come home discouraged. You probably experiences when outside

43:22

of Christian issues your kids come home They're discouraged

43:24

because someone's been being mean to them or they

43:26

had a bad day and your job is to

43:28

kind of help them Process it

43:31

get them all bandaged up and get them back in the fight

43:33

Get them back in the school get them back in the ring

43:35

And this is what cut man do all the time and

43:38

one thing I've noticed from watching cut

43:41

man like stitch Duran Is

43:43

that they are really well prepared? They

43:45

know what to do every time what it could regardless of

43:47

the kind of injury that comes their way They

43:50

only have seconds they know to do their weight As

43:52

a matter of fact, they typically have the materials in

43:54

their hands as the guys walking

43:56

back to the corner to the stool It's

43:58

like they're not gonna like start digging once he's there, they

44:00

already know what they're gonna do. They're

44:03

ready before the battle so they can

44:05

be helpful during the battle and

44:07

that's what we have to be. These

44:10

guys come to fights prepared for the worst. They

44:12

know they can't learn it as

44:15

they're in it. They have to come with all

44:17

that information ready beforehand. So my question to you

44:19

is are you ready when

44:22

your student you're leading or a person

44:24

in your small group or a person

44:26

under your care is in the church

44:28

or your own child comes to you

44:30

with a doubt with an unanswered challenge,

44:32

a first skeptical question. Are you

44:34

ready with an answer or is that the

44:36

first time you're actually digging around for an

44:38

answer? Did you get ready in advance of

44:40

their questions or now are you kind of

44:43

reeling trying to react rather than be proactive?

44:46

And I think all too often I hear

44:48

all the time in these different groups I

44:50

teach parents and youth leaders really are always

44:52

reacting. They're always behind the curb just slightly

44:54

because they didn't take an evidential approach to

44:57

their faith and now

44:59

when the challenges become evidential they're unable. They have

45:01

to get a ramp up and it's not easy

45:03

then. Now is

45:05

the time to start training before

45:08

you meet the challenge. As a parent, as

45:11

a youth leader, whatever it

45:13

may be, you need to be

45:15

prepared in advance. It's

45:18

time for all of us to train ourselves

45:20

so we can help our students. I

45:24

would do anything as a dad. I feel

45:27

like I did a better job raising

45:29

my kids, preparing my kids. I'm sure you feel the same

45:31

way. And that's why I

45:34

try to take the time to show you the

45:36

outline of what I think does work when

45:38

you engage young people and even when you

45:40

engage your own church. The same approach that

45:43

I think is so effective with young people

45:45

will also help you raise the passion and

45:47

energy level and interest level of just the

45:49

regular folks in your church. So I hope

45:52

that this is something you can apply immediately

45:54

and see a difference in your own church

45:56

culture. That's it for this week.

45:58

Have a great week. I'll see you right back. here next

46:00

week on the Cold Case Christianity

46:03

Podcast. Thanks for joining us

46:05

at the Cold Case Christianity Podcast. You

46:09

can learn more about Jim, follow his

46:11

daily blog, download free materials,

46:13

and watch his videos

46:15

at coldcacich christianity.com. You

46:20

are now free

46:22

to move about

46:24

the country. Please

46:40

engage this computer now.