0:02

Jay Warner Wallace is a cold case homicide

0:05

detective who's been investigating cold case murders

0:07

in Los Angeles County for over a decade. His

0:09

work has been featured on Fox News, Dateline,

0:11

and Cor TV. Now we join

0:13

him as he applies his investigative skills to making

0:16

a case for Christianity. Thanks

0:19

so much for joining us at the Cold Case Christianity podcast.

0:21

I am Jay Warner Wallace. Today as my guest,

0:24

I have a good friend, Christopher Yuan. And if

0:26

you're not familiar with Christopher's work, and you probably

0:28

are if you're listening to this podcast,

0:30

because you know, we've talked about this stuff before.

0:32

But if you're not, this is a good opportunity to

0:35

get acquainted with Christopher because he's got

0:37

a project out right now

0:39

that is so important that I want

0:42

you to hear about it and know where to go

0:44

to access more information so that you

0:47

can do what you need to do, especially in a culture

0:49

right now, which is being challenged. Now Christopher Yuan, I'm

0:51

not going to give you a lot of

0:53

introduction. I want you to do some of that. And

0:56

you can tell your own story. Thank you so much

0:58

for joining our podcast. Oh, thank

1:00

you for having me. Have me on Jim. Well,

1:02

and just tell people a little bit about your

1:05

story, because it's really unique, number

1:07

one, and it's timely in the sense that

1:10

we are facing issues right now in culture

1:12

that you've got your finger on that

1:15

I think are just the perfect time for people to

1:17

get to know you better. So tell people just a little

1:19

bit about your story. Yeah, I wasn't raised

1:21

in a Christian home. We didn't go to church, didn't own

1:23

a Bible. My parents, I'm

1:25

Chinese. So my parents were born in China, raised

1:28

in Taiwan, came to the United States for graduate school.

1:31

I had the secret though that I kept hidden

1:32

through high school, college, even the Marine Corps Reserve.

1:35

I'm originally from Chicago

1:37

area, was born there, was there for 50 years. And

1:40

it was there that I, you

1:43

know, essentially, you

1:46

know, I had this secret.

1:49

I moved from Chicago where

1:51

we used to live to Louisville. I was going, I was

1:53

accepted to dental school. I was in dental school.

1:58

And, you know, so during that time I was.

1:59

my first year of graduate school pursuing

2:02

my doctorate in the dentistry, I

2:04

came out of the closet as I would call it

2:06

back then and I

2:08

broke the news to my parents after a year of

2:10

dental school. It was like

2:12

my declaration, I

2:14

am gay. Devastated

2:17

my mom, although she was not a Christian.

2:20

Amazingly Jim, through that crisis my

2:22

mother came to faith and then my

2:25

father did his will. That

2:28

part is an amazing story in and of itself. Yes,

2:32

it really is. People

2:34

could go online and read more

2:36

about that later. Susie and

2:38

my mom

2:41

are really connected. There is

2:43

something about moms, right? Yes, that's right.

2:45

That's right. That's so true. Yes, but

2:49

she just prayed

2:51

for me. This is the sad thing

2:53

which is often that parents of your prodigals,

2:56

you just start just perfectly praying and what

2:59

happens? Things usually get worse. I

3:04

mean she radically was changed. Come

3:06

to Christ, she just started praying for me.

3:10

It just got worse and worse. I was

3:12

in dental school, yes, but I was also just

3:14

going crazy. I

3:17

was doing all my other friends were doing. They were

3:19

having fun. I went to secular school, I

3:23

was in a school in Illinois. I thought

3:25

that was my first time. I was like, oh my goodness, partying.

3:28

I didn't really like to drink much. When I went to

3:30

dental school, I felt like there was another level. I don't

3:32

know about other schools,

3:35

whether it's law school or whatever, but I felt

3:37

like these graduate students, they were professional

3:40

drinkers. No wonder why. Judges

3:43

are all alcoholics. It was crazy. I

3:45

was partying going after the clubs, not

3:48

just the gay clubs. Even my secular,

3:51

my non-quote-unquote

3:54

that weren't dealing with sexual identity and

3:56

weren't identified as gay, they

3:58

were partying as well. And

4:01

I also, you know,

4:03

when you hang out with dogs, you catch fleas. So

4:06

I was at the clubs. Well, what's at the clubs? You're

4:08

not going to be drinking orange juice in 7UP.

4:11

Not only were they drinking, actually very little drinking

4:13

was happening in the clubs. It was mostly

4:15

all drugs. Club

4:17

drugs. This is where we

4:19

have some intersection here, I guess.

4:22

Not so much with the murder part, but I mean just with

4:24

the law enforcement and

4:26

the drugs. But

4:29

I was doing all the club drugs and

4:31

the designer drugs, ecstasy, you

4:34

know, Special K, and all

4:36

the psychedelic drugs. Also, then

4:38

later, the ice and the speed.

4:46

And then this whole

4:48

time my parents didn't know that I was doing drugs, but I

4:50

tried to balance this thinking I could do both.

4:53

I could be like just a recreational drug

4:55

user and a functional, quote

4:57

unquote, there's no such thing as a functional drug user. And

5:01

I was balancing

5:03

a graduate student of my day and a promiscuous

5:06

drug dealer by night because I was also selling

5:08

it as well. Because I was

5:10

broke and I needed to support my habit. Well, eventually

5:13

I was expelled from dental school. I moved

5:15

from Louisville, you know, this kind of dead

5:17

small town, to Hotlanta, to

5:19

Atlanta. And there I kept doing what I knew

5:21

how to do best. And this was back in the 90s,

5:24

mid 90s, late 90s, where they

5:26

had 24 hour clubs, especially

5:29

the gay clubs. And so this was

5:31

just the place to be. And

5:34

I became not just a drug dealer,

5:36

but a supplier. This

5:38

whole time my parents had no clue that I was doing

5:40

drugs. They knew though, and

5:43

even their focus wasn't even on sexuality.

5:46

They knew the biggest problem

5:49

was my need to know and surrender to

5:51

Jesus. So they prayed for that miracle. They

5:53

came to visit me one time in Atlanta, even though

5:55

I kept pushing them away. After

5:58

two days, I kicked them out. I just had enough. And

6:00

before my dad left, he came in his Bible. I told

6:03

my dad, I don't want your Bible. He

6:06

left it there anyway, walked out the door. As

6:08

soon as he left, I took my dad's Bible, threw

6:10

it in the trash. It was so obvious that I was just hopeless,

6:13

but they committed not to focus upon hopelessness,

6:16

but upon God's promises. My

6:18

mom began to pray a bold prayer.

6:21

God, do whatever,

6:24

whatever it takes to bring this prodigal son

6:26

to you. She enlisted over

6:29

a hundred people that were praying for

6:31

me from her church, from their church, for

6:34

my parents. They're from

6:36

the Bible study, a fellowship group, and

6:38

they began to cry out to God for me. My mom,

6:40

you know, so she prayed for this miracle

6:43

that God would do whatever it takes, and that miracle came

6:45

with a bang on my door. On

6:48

my doorstep, 12 federal

6:50

drug enforcement agents, Atlanta police,

6:53

and two big German shepherd dogs. They

6:56

came in, confiscated, you know, they confiscated

6:58

my money, my drugs, and

7:00

I was charged with the equivalent of 9.1

7:02

tons of marijuana. So

7:07

with that amount, I was facing 10

7:10

years to life in federal prison. So

7:13

I found myself in jail. I was walking around

7:15

the cell block, passed by this garbage can,

7:17

and I thought, this is my life. I was about

7:19

to pass it by, but something on top of the trash caught

7:21

my eye. Ben over picked it up. It was

7:24

a Gideon's New Testament. Took

7:27

it back to myself, began reading it, and it was

7:29

the first time that I ever read God's Word. And

7:31

I read through the entire Gospel of Mark that

7:33

night. But I wasn't thinking, this is the

7:36

answer. I just thought, I've got tons of time on my hands,

7:38

and I'd better pass it somehow. But

7:40

it began to convict me. Well, things

7:42

got worse. I, a few

7:44

days after that, a few weeks after that, I was called

7:47

to the nurse's office, and

7:49

I got the news that I was HIV positive.

7:52

So this was just rock bottom

7:54

for me. And I

7:58

was laying in my bed a few days after that. After

8:00

that, after receiving that news, just devastated.

8:03

And I look up at the cold metal bunk above me and

8:06

it read, if you're bored, read

8:09

Jeremiah 29, 11. For

8:12

I know the plans that I have for you,

8:14

declares the Lord, plans to prosper you,

8:16

not to harm you, plans to give you hope

8:19

and a future. There could have been any

8:22

verse on that bunk, but

8:25

God knew that I

8:27

needed that very verse written by a prophet

8:31

to a rebellious nation, Judah, to

8:33

tell me that if God could have a plan

8:35

for Judah in exile, in rebellion,

8:38

he could even have a plan for me.

8:41

Didn't know where that plan was gonna take me. He

8:44

began to convict me of my

8:46

idols. Obviously, George, when

8:48

there were a few months, he delivered

8:50

me from that addiction. And then he kept

8:52

bringing in my other idols. And man, there was just

8:54

this one thing that I felt like I just

8:57

couldn't let go of

8:59

my sexuality. I was called to the nurse's office and

9:02

I went to the

9:04

chaplain and I asked him his opinion because

9:09

I thought, I need to ask someone who studied

9:12

the Bible. And to my surprise,

9:15

this prison chaplain told me the

9:17

Bible does not condemn homosexuality,

9:20

gave me a book explaining that view. I

9:22

thought, fantastic, I now

9:25

have biblical justification. I had that

9:27

book in one hand and the Bible

9:29

in the other. And I just went through every verse looking

9:31

for justification, I couldn't find any. So

9:35

I was at this turning point. A

9:37

decision had to be made, either abandon God in

9:39

his word and live as a gay man, pursuing monogamous,

9:41

same-sex relationship by allowing my

9:43

attractions to dictate who I

9:46

am, or abandon

9:48

pursuing a monogamous, same-sex relationship

9:51

by freeing myself from his sexuality

9:53

and live as a follower of Jesus Christ,

9:57

by God's grace, I followed.

9:59

Jesus.

10:01

As the days and the weeks and months of abstinence

10:03

passed, I realized my sexuality

10:06

should not be the core of who

10:08

I am. And I'm

10:10

sure we'll talk about this later, about this identity, but this

10:12

is so key for me. My journey, I

10:15

needed to realize that this is

10:17

not like a thing to agree to disagree.

10:20

If we're not setting people free from their

10:22

dead man and then telling them to

10:24

cling to their dead man, cling

10:26

to their gay identity, their old

10:29

identity, an identity grounded

10:31

in a sinful, in

10:33

a flesh or sin nature, we're not setting

10:36

people free. And that was so revolutionary

10:39

for me, that once I realized

10:41

that I could hate my

10:43

sin without hating myself,

10:46

that's when I was able to actually be set

10:49

free to be who God has called me

10:51

to be as someone created in

10:53

his image, though I am

10:55

fallen and I'm still being renewed day by

10:57

day, but I need to put my identity in Christ.

11:00

That was so important for me. In

11:03

addition, I realized the

11:05

world and the church,

11:08

we have pigeonholed ourselves into the wrong

11:10

framework. What is that framework? It's a secular

11:12

Freudian framework of heterosexuality,

11:15

homosexuality, bisexuality. He

11:17

was in prison while I was just dealing with it. It was

11:19

me, God's word, the Holy Spirit,

11:22

in prison cells reading his word. And

11:24

I was reading, I was like, okay. At

11:26

first I was like, I'm gay, how do I live?

11:29

And then I realized, wait, it's not I am

11:31

gay, I have attraction. See,

11:33

sexuality is not who I am, but

11:35

how I am. And then I thought, okay, then

11:38

what am I called to? How am I called to live? Am

11:40

I called to pursue heterosexuality?

11:43

Because if homosexuality is wrong, which

11:45

it is, do I pursue heterosexuality?

11:48

As I kept reading the scripture, I realized, heterosexuality,

11:52

there's a lot of sins, sexual sins

11:54

in the Bible that are heterosexual in nature. So

11:57

that cannot be the goal. God is not calling

11:59

us. to be heterosexual for I am heterosexual

12:02

God says be holy for

12:05

I am holy so the opposite of homosexuality

12:08

is not heterosexuality but

12:10

the opposite of homosexuality is

12:13

holiness we are all

12:15

called to holiness we are all

12:18

cold called to die

12:20

to our temptations and struggles

12:22

and not ever put that as

12:25

who we are so

12:27

that was so revolutionary God had called me to

12:29

holiness God actually calls everyone

12:32

to holiness then also

12:34

God called me to ministry while I was in prison

12:37

I applied to Bible college I was accepted

12:39

I was released studied in Bible

12:41

college at Moody for four years then went on

12:43

to get my masters in exegesis

12:46

studying Greek and Hebrew for four years each and

12:48

then went on to get my doctorate in ministry and then

12:50

I wrote a book with my mom called out of

12:52

our country a gay son's journey

12:55

to God a broken mother search for hope and

12:57

then I wrote a my newer book holiness

12:59

sexuality the gospel sex design relationship shaped

13:01

by God's grand story where I build

13:03

this deep rich understanding of sexuality

13:06

that's more than just don't

13:08

do this don't do that don't do this because

13:11

Jim we can't build a Christian life just on

13:13

God's know what is God's yes and

13:16

that's holy sexuality chastity and singless

13:18

faithfulness in marriage which is good news

13:20

for all and then kind of what you just mentioned

13:22

earlier at the beginning this podcast of you know that

13:25

we were recording that that that

13:28

this book I've adapted into a video

13:31

series called the holy sexuality

13:33

project which is really the one at the first of its

13:35

kind that is not geared to just be

13:37

another program for youth group

13:39

and you know Jim you are a youth pastor for

13:41

years right I bet sometimes

13:44

the frustration that you have as a youth pastor

13:47

is parents kind of they

13:49

drop off their kids off at youth group

13:51

and they think you do you

13:53

do my job you do the spiritual

13:55

discipleship and stuff like that and as a youth master

13:58

they should do the discipleship They

14:00

should be the primary disciples of our kids.

14:03

Parents should be. You know, you teach my kids

14:05

on biblical sexuality. Well the people who should be primarily

14:08

doing that, youth masters,

14:11

they should be the secondary ones. The primary

14:13

ones need to be parents.

14:15

Well here's the reality. That's not

14:18

happening. And the other sad reality

14:20

is all the resources that I've

14:22

seen are mainly for

14:25

the youth group or the Christian school.

14:28

Or there are some that are for parents but

14:30

they kind of tend on the first half, just

14:32

the gods know. We also need

14:34

to know gods yes. So

14:36

we're super excited about this. Actually the goal

14:38

of this is not only to help teens to

14:41

understand, embrace and celebrate biblical sexuality,

14:43

but the goal is to bring

14:45

the conversation back where it ought to be. Not

14:48

so much in the classroom, not

14:51

just in the youth group room, but in

14:53

the living room, in the family room, and

14:55

the dining room. So that parents

14:58

and their kids and their teens and grandparents

15:01

and their teens and their pre-teens can have

15:03

these redemptive conversations that will

15:05

go beyond a program, go

15:07

beyond a video series, go beyond high

15:10

school, into college, into the young adult

15:12

years where our young adults

15:14

and kids are really, really being inundated.

15:18

They're just being, they're drowning in a

15:20

tsunami of misinformation. Yeah,

15:23

it's interesting the providence of God in some of this,

15:25

even in your own story. I mean you talk about how

15:27

you had the agents knocking on your

15:30

door because you had so much

15:33

marijuana that you were, I think if you weren't

15:35

the largest, you were one of the largest marijuana

15:37

distributors in the country at the time. You

15:40

know, think about the most places in America right now

15:42

that wouldn't even be a charge. You'd still

15:45

be living that life because they wouldn't be prosecuting

15:47

you for this. Yeah,

15:49

yeah. And also it

15:51

was all in the federal system, so

15:54

I don't, the details of that. In the federal system

15:56

they make everything equivalent to marijuana, but I

15:58

was actually dealing mostly in... crystal

16:01

meth and that. But you're

16:03

right, I mean, well, even though it's crystal meth, I would

16:05

still be, you know, but you know, there

16:07

are a lot of people that are trying to make even that

16:10

legal now. Well, I know. But okay,

16:12

so this project you're doing, now a lot of us,

16:14

you know, we write books and then we have the opportunity

16:17

to create curriculum for the book. And

16:19

it's often seen now as if you're writing

16:21

as an author, that it's often seen as the,

16:24

you know, kind of expected additional

16:27

ancillary product that you're going to have

16:30

that you're that you end up writing. That

16:32

is not what this is, even though it has

16:35

the same, you know, the same,

16:37

it feels like it's part of the same book.

16:40

But it isn't what this is. This is really an entirely

16:43

standalone project. And I want

16:45

to make that clear, because I think what people do is they typically

16:47

think, well, okay, this is just another part

16:49

of the book. I've got the book already, you know, or

16:52

I've heard about the book, or maybe, tell

16:54

me why before we get to the actual website,

16:56

which is at holysexuality.com. Before

16:58

we get there and talk about that website, just

17:01

why do you think right now? I mean, this

17:03

has become, it's always been a hot topic

17:06

issue for as long as you know, you can remember. But

17:09

it does feel as though something has changed.

17:12

And the level of acceptance, and of

17:14

course, a lot of that could just be the political fallout

17:16

of illegalizing same-sex marriage. It

17:19

could be a lot of these things. Do you see any other

17:21

factors that make this the issue

17:23

of our time in the church? Yeah, I

17:25

really do. And you're

17:28

right on what you said. My

17:31

book was for adults. It was

17:33

not for teenagers. And

17:35

this is totally new. I actually added new

17:37

stuff that was not in the book. For example,

17:40

I added a whole lesson on gender

17:43

and this new sort of concept

17:45

of self-perception and gender, which is totally subjective,

17:48

not based on reality. But I

17:50

also kind of put in some other stuff that wasn't in the book. So

17:52

it is a totally new project. It's kind of based

17:55

on my book, which was for adults. But this is

17:57

not just for adults, it's for families. So that's it. But

18:00

here's the reason why I think, I

18:02

feel like it's a perfect storm

18:05

where we have this combination of

18:08

things that have been brewing over

18:10

the years. And it's not

18:13

just like we're going by, oh, well, you know, COVID

18:15

and all that, you know, during

18:17

that time with Black Lives Matter and

18:19

critical theory, all that, I think that's a big

18:22

part of it. But you can actually trace

18:24

those lines, I believe

18:26

all the way back to the mid 1800s. I talk

18:28

about this in my lesson two on the video

18:30

series, but I also talk about in my chapter two, in

18:34

chapter one and chapter two, when I talk

18:36

about the philosophies in the mid 1800s. So

18:38

we have existentialism, we have the romantic period,

18:41

kind of a response to modernism,

18:46

which that was all a reaction to the

18:49

church, the Roman Catholic church, where

18:51

they were like, no, science. And they're kind of

18:53

throwing the church out and throwing

18:55

God out with a baby, like throwing

18:57

the baby out with the bathwater. But

19:00

then after that kind of the modernism

19:02

period of, and also the industrial

19:04

revolution, where they were kind of just growing and all

19:06

these findings and stuff, but they realized,

19:08

oh wait, everything isn't just fucks,

19:11

and everything isn't just science. Like

19:13

we all are people and we all have emotions and thoughts.

19:17

And this is where the romantic

19:19

period grew out of the industrial revolution

19:22

and kind of that modernism period

19:24

a little bit that was starting, where it's

19:27

like art and feelings,

19:29

which I think I love the

19:32

romantic period and the classical music

19:34

that come out of there. But

19:36

with that came this thought that,

19:38

well, there's this void, right? There's no God

19:40

and we need to fill that with what? Well,

19:43

our experiences, my desires,

19:45

what I do, actions, that

19:48

gives me purpose. So you take those

19:50

threads to today, that's exactly, we're

19:52

almost bearing the rotten fruit from

19:55

the romantic period and then modernism

19:58

and also post-modernism. And

20:00

then from that all the kind of the Frankfurt

20:02

School which kind of just really push

20:04

critical theory Which is what is that a lot of times

20:07

we say that and ultimately it's

20:09

not only seeing the world through the lens of oppression and

20:12

oppressors and oppressed But

20:15

it is actually giving a story to what

20:17

is truth that no longer

20:19

are the so-called oppressors The

20:22

arbiters of truth who's the arbiter

20:25

who then determines what is truth? It's

20:27

the oppressed so this

20:29

whole view of technical theory is not just Naming

20:32

that there are people that are oppressed and who are

20:34

their pastors which is problematic

20:37

because it's not based on your character or your Ancients

20:40

it's based on Marginalized status.

20:42

So if you have no marginalized status, so

20:44

sorry Jim you have no marginalized

20:46

that if you are white Christian male

20:49

you're the worst of the worst because you're not worse

20:51

than that. I'm actually a white Christian male heterosexual

20:54

police officer I don't think you can get a worse

21:00

The worst of the worst of the worst of the worst yes exactly

21:03

and then you can never repent of that You're just you

21:05

can't like get even get out of that like yeah,

21:07

it's so crazy. It's not based on

21:09

your character, which is like Contrary

21:12

completely to you

21:14

know Martin Luther King jr. His I have

21:17

a dream What is it? You don't have

21:19

a dream? You know that one day that my children

21:21

will not be based You know on on the

21:24

color of their skin, but what the content

21:26

of their character and what's going

21:28

on right now? We are not

21:30

being judged Jim. You are not being

21:32

judged by the content of your character You

21:35

are being judged by the color of your skin and

21:37

other things so it's just so Contrary

21:40

to what is you know? I would say what is true

21:42

civil rights But even you know we can have that

21:45

whole talk of why is the true foundation for civil

21:47

rights? Which is the image of God not

21:49

I'm just our human feelings and

21:51

and you know hope for compassion and so I

21:53

got for others because that's all dirty

21:56

rags, but Okay,

21:59

you did that combination of all

22:01

this where now this is not just

22:04

like your experience, your attractions, but

22:06

sexuality is who you are. That's

22:09

why your youth are like, oh, this is who a person

22:11

is. I'm going to fight for this. A person

22:14

feels like they're a trans, which of course they would never

22:16

say that, but they think that they're a male when they're

22:18

really born a woman, and that's who they are. So

22:20

we need to fight for people because that's who they

22:22

are. Yeah. So now

22:24

this is I think the perfect timing then

22:26

in a generation

22:28

that has really either embraced

22:31

this ideology already or is certainly

22:33

going to be presented with it. If you've got young people and

22:36

my kids are grown, but now I've got a grandchild and

22:39

this is in front of every one of us. And

22:42

what you got here then is an appropriate

22:44

way to reach a visual generation. It's

22:46

a series. You created the series of videos

22:49

and I want to be very specific. Now you can find these

22:51

videos and the entire project at the

22:53

whole at Holy sexuality.com. And

22:56

I love the website. It looks great. I mean,

22:59

it's very, very easy to navigate. It's super self-explanatory.

23:01

So I want to encourage everyone to go there. But

23:03

when it comes down to, you know, just cut to the chase.

23:05

This is a, these are a series of 12 lessons.

23:10

And tell me right now for people who are listening,

23:13

so who should go to Holy

23:15

sexuality.com and engage this

23:17

process anyway? Who is this? Oh,

23:21

this is so funny. When we have, you know, when we

23:23

do books and our marketing people, they're like, okay, you gotta

23:25

be very specific. I'm like, everyone. Like, no,

23:28

that's not going to work. That's too broad.

23:30

That's too broad. Well, so definitely it's parents

23:34

with teens and pre-teens and

23:38

grandparents. And I'm adding grandparents

23:40

because it's all hands

23:43

on deck, Jim. I mean, we know this, right? It's

23:46

so parents need so much help.

23:48

So I'm not a parent and, but I

23:50

know parents are just so busy. I mean, just with

23:52

life in general, they need help. And

23:55

we need to do it. We have a, we have to have

23:57

a multi-pronged approach, but I'm

23:59

also. going to add parents who

24:03

have grade school kids. Why? Get prepared

24:06

now because I'm telling you before you know it, in

24:09

a blink of an eye, four years are going to

24:11

fly by and your kids are going to be pre-teens.

24:13

And honestly, I do think that some

24:16

fifth, sixth

24:18

graders, third, fourth, and mature third,

24:20

fourth, fifth, sixth graders could actually understand

24:24

and receive this content because they're

24:26

already being exposed. Let's

24:29

not be naive parents that

24:31

you think that you know I have a third grader and

24:33

I home school them or you know whatever,

24:36

very, very likely they honestly

24:38

I think a kindergartner pre-k

24:41

already knows the term gay and

24:44

even maybe trans you know mommy

24:46

this is the thing more and more their parents are

24:48

just shocked and they're not ready. Why? Because

24:51

they think we are living 20 years ago. They

24:55

think that we can still do

24:57

things the way we did before.

24:59

We can't do that anymore. So this is really

25:02

for that but it's also really

25:04

for I'm going to say it's for

25:06

singles. Why? First

25:08

we have to have a good understanding ourselves but here

25:11

is where we really understand the

25:13

gospel. What do I mean? What's part

25:15

of the gospel? I mean it's you know we're sinners

25:18

and Jesus came to save us. Yes. But

25:20

the gospel is also about being part of the Great Commission

25:22

and we need to tell others about the gospel. What

25:24

is the gospel the Great Commission about? Go

25:27

and make disciples. Well when you disciple someone

25:29

and you bring them to faith first and you then disciple

25:32

them what in essence we're doing is

25:34

we are a spiritual parent. I'm

25:37

a single guy James Jim and you

25:40

know I think we've might have talked about this before. I'm

25:42

totally open to getting married so if

25:45

Susie knows any godly women out there you know she

25:47

can tell my mom. She's taking this. So your mom

25:49

would be delighted I'm sure. But

25:51

she's actually kind of cool. Yes she would be delighted

25:54

but she's also she doesn't give that pressure which is cool. No

25:56

that's good. Very typical. Well she does tease quite

25:59

well so I mean if you... If you don't consider that pressure,

26:01

you're going to be okay. Yes. But

26:04

I'm open to getting married, but I'm not. I'm

26:06

a single guy. I've been single for 52 years, but I've

26:08

been single for 20 some years as a Christian single

26:12

guy. But I am a dad.

26:15

I have discipled young men,

26:18

and so I have spiritual sons.

26:21

So I think if you're single

26:23

right now, whether you are 20 or whether

26:25

you are 60 or 80, even in

26:29

your singleness, that you should be begetting

26:32

children. You should be discipling. I see the spiritual

26:35

begetting children. And maybe look for grandchildren.

26:37

If you're 60, 70, 80, in your

26:40

church, kids that maybe need

26:42

to have a grandparent come alongside because their grandparents

26:44

are hundreds of miles away

26:46

and you can do that. And if

26:49

you're 20, 30, see if you can be kind of a spiritual

26:52

uncle or aunt for people and maybe

26:54

provide this where the parents

26:57

don't have the time or whatever. So

27:00

I do believe this

27:02

does have a broader reach than just

27:05

parents of teens and preteens.

27:08

Well, and a lot of this, I'll just add this to you. I

27:10

think what we see now and

27:13

what we saw starting probably 10 years ago was

27:15

that the age of influence. Everyone

27:18

knows if you raise kids, you all know that at some point

27:20

you are no longer the most

27:23

trusted authority in their

27:25

lives. And it usually happens, really,

27:27

to be honest, once they're exposed to all the other

27:29

influences of life. And so it could happen

27:31

sometimes in junior high, sometimes in high school. But now

27:33

I think it happens really when you decide to give your

27:36

kids a phone. And I see this happening. I've

27:38

got some good friends who are

27:41

solid Christian parents who are raising their

27:43

kids. And by the time their kids were 15, well,

27:46

they gave them their first phone. I think that's remarkable

27:48

given that I see some people giving their kids phones

27:51

before they even enter junior high. The

27:53

problem, of course, is you're introducing them to the entire

27:55

language of culture and every idea that

27:58

culture can throw at you through the internet. the

28:00

online information

28:03

from online. And if you don't have

28:05

established a Christian world, which means when

28:07

are you establishing a Christian world, be with your kids probably

28:10

in mid to upper elementary. You

28:12

still have influence with your kids. You haven't yet

28:15

given them the phone. You can establish

28:17

the foundations they'll have before they start.

28:19

So I look at a project like this and

28:21

I think if you are, look, yeah, we

28:23

always think, we'll read this book, we want everyone to

28:25

read the book. Okay, that's true. But there's

28:28

always a pressure point that people respond

28:30

to. And a lot of this right now, if

28:32

you've got kids and you're thinking, what are they learning in school

28:35

that I don't even know about? What

28:37

point are they going to have? Am I no longer going to

28:39

be the most important voice in their life?

28:42

It happens earlier and earlier. So you have to ask yourself

28:45

the question, how long can you delay the phone?

28:47

If you can delay the phone for a period

28:49

of time, you may still be the most significant voice.

28:52

If you can't, you better have mastered this

28:55

material and passed it on to your

28:57

kids. Because honestly, sometimes

29:00

I see this all the time, people will use our

29:02

curriculum in high school settings.

29:05

It's way too late. It's way too late in high school.

29:08

If you start talking about apologetics or the

29:10

case for Christianity when you're a junior

29:13

in high school, you've missed it by three years.

29:15

You've got to damage control that. I know, yeah.

29:18

You're reacting instead of working proactively. So

29:20

I know you see this project as a proactive

29:23

project. Look, there's 12 messages

29:25

here. Now I know we can go through all

29:27

of it, but we're not going to do that because I want people to visit the

29:29

website. And it's not, it's

29:32

like this is, this is going to, there's an investment

29:34

involved here. And I just want to be honest with

29:36

people about that, right? My

29:38

work is different than yours, right? You have to figure

29:40

out a way to, you actually

29:42

stepped out in faith to create

29:45

a project.

29:46

And your publisher didn't pay for this. Nobody,

29:49

you paid for this personally. As a matter of fact,

29:52

it's even more than that because you funded this

29:55

with holy money. Yeah. Yeah.

29:58

This project should have cost $1.2 million a week. We

30:00

fortunately did not have to pay for that. It is

30:02

only half, I guess. There's still a lot. But here's

30:04

the wonderful thing is we've

30:07

looked at other resources out there like this. And

30:11

they're maybe $200. They

30:13

do not have all the really cool animation

30:15

that we have. We got animators. We pull animators

30:17

that did stuff for Bible projects. So we're talking

30:19

about super high quality animation,

30:22

sound engineers, stuff like that. All the music. Everything

30:25

is custom. It's already essentially

30:28

paid for. So it's only $20. You

30:31

guys listening right now, that's

30:33

a steal. Hold on. Hold on. So

30:36

you're telling me that each person that

30:38

comes in and wants to be

30:40

discipled and wants to be prepared to disciple

30:43

their kids with this curriculum

30:46

in the 12 videos, this is several

30:48

hours of content. 270 minutes of content. Yeah, four

30:50

and a half hours. So

30:53

you're telling me that this is a $20 investment. I

30:55

know. That's it. You have a trip

30:58

to Chick-fil-A. I have a trip to, because

31:00

Chick-fil-A can be expensive for the trip. I know. Everything

31:02

now is. Yeah, but that's basically have a trip to Chick-fil-A

31:05

or maybe one trip to Starbucks. I mean, you went with

31:07

a coffee and that was probably $20. That's it.

31:10

And then you can use that to be able to have these conversations.

31:12

And you're exactly right. You were saying

31:14

iPhones, I'm going to add to

31:16

that iPads because I know parents

31:19

are like they're not giving their kids a smartphone, but then

31:21

what do the little kids have? It's worse. They're

31:24

glued to this. You

31:26

and I, we travel a lot. And

31:28

I know you're traveling less, which is smart because

31:31

you want to stay on with Susie, which is so smart. But

31:35

all the traveling that we do, I'm telling you, I

31:37

love to watch people. And I watch, sometimes

31:40

it's the kids that are just the rowdiest and

31:42

the kind of, I almost

31:44

feel like every situation that I see where they're just

31:46

complaining or yelling or they are glued

31:50

to the iPad. I

31:52

almost feel like there must be a study just

31:54

to show the correlation between the really just

31:57

kids that are just so misbehaving.

32:00

and stuff like that. And the kids

32:02

that are just reading or they don't have the iPad,

32:04

they know how to be silent, they know how to just sit and

32:06

be still. But

32:09

anyway, I think that's key. So

32:12

with these, these are videos, 12 lessons, 36

32:14

videos, and

32:17

it's hoping to use to redeem

32:19

these videos to not, that's the way kids are

32:21

glued to it, but we're using these videos

32:24

to connect and keep

32:26

them engaged. So they're shorter

32:28

videos, they're not super long. I

32:30

think maybe around 10 minutes each. Each lesson

32:33

has three videos, it's a teaching

32:35

video, and then there's also

32:37

a parent guide that we have. See, we didn't call it

32:39

a teacher guide because we wanted it to be specifically

32:42

for the living room, for the parents. And

32:44

so the parent would kick off with a question

32:46

or the grandparent would kick off a question, read a few

32:49

lines, watch the teaching video,

32:51

then have four to six minutes, 46 questions in

32:54

response to that teaching video. So that's

32:56

another 10 minutes of the kind of discussion, and then watch

32:58

another 10 minute video, and then have another 10

33:01

minutes of discussion, and this is all guided through the parent

33:03

guide, and then a wrap up video of two

33:05

to three minutes, and then kind of a final

33:07

kind of closing question. So that's

33:10

about 45 to 60 minutes of

33:12

videos and discussion

33:15

that you just can have once

33:17

a night for 12 weeks, twice a night

33:19

for six weeks. I knew a pastor

33:22

who emailed us around end

33:25

of July, beginning of August, and he said, I found

33:27

out your thing was coming out. I did this fully

33:30

in 12 days because I knew my

33:32

high school, my freshman

33:35

son was about to start high school, and my junior

33:37

daughter was in high school, and I wanted to start before

33:39

school year. They went through the whole 12 lessons in 12 days,

33:42

and then he said, hey, he was telling us, after

33:45

lesson one, which is my testimony, the

33:47

son told his dad, 14 year old son, freshman,

33:50

he said, dad, this

33:51

is so awkward, I'm talking to my parents

33:53

about sex. I get it, you know?

33:57

I think that's what every parent would provide, you say,

33:59

definitely.

33:59

grandparents would say that too. Then

34:02

at the end of lesson 12, the dad

34:04

asked the son, he said, hey so do you still

34:06

feel awkward talking, weird talking about your parents?

34:09

The 14 year old said,

34:10

no dad, not at all.

34:13

That's a win. Like I do not see this

34:15

video series as being the end-all be-all.

34:19

I'm hoping to build a nice foundation,

34:22

but I want to really tear

34:24

down that wall separating

34:26

the parent and their teenager, the grandparent

34:28

and the preteen, where they're like scared

34:31

on both sides. They're fearful, they're

34:33

embarrassed. Tear that

34:35

wall down because I think that

34:38

is the key to stem

34:40

the tide of all. Our kids are drowning

34:43

in a tsunami of lies and

34:45

we need to be proactive and I think the key

34:48

is really home discipleship.

34:50

I think you're right. There's actually a sample

34:52

lesson on the website everybody, so I want you to go

34:54

over there to holysexuality.com

34:57

and just take a look at it. I think you'll see that it's

35:00

a lot of things we spend money on, even the

35:02

books that Chris and I write. We

35:05

brought these books available and to

35:07

be honest what you need is something you can sit with

35:09

your kids and actually advance

35:12

the cause. Okay, so one last question I have for you

35:14

on this, Christopher, is I think there's a

35:17

lot of stuff. I look

35:21

at the number of videos

35:23

and the topics for the videos and I'm just wondering,

35:26

you said you for example you added gender as

35:28

part of this series when

35:30

it really wasn't a large part of what the

35:32

book was about. But I've heard

35:35

you speak on gender and most

35:37

of our, I know your audiences are all over the place,

35:39

a lot of churches, all kinds of different things, but you and

35:41

I both are on faculty at

35:43

some Worldview conferences in Colorado

35:46

Springs, well Manatee Springs, Colorado and

35:49

we get to stand in front and

35:51

both of us have done the Reality Apologetics

35:54

conferences for students. So these are all

35:56

high school age kids.

35:59

We get a chance to connect with them because it's not

36:02

just the stage speaking or the speaking in the classroom.

36:04

There's that time that lunch, it's dinner, it's

36:07

off the stage. It's on the front porch of

36:10

Summit Worldview Conference. Right now,

36:13

when you're hearing from, I know

36:15

the kinds of questions they ask me and sadly because I

36:17

work cold cases, almost half of them are going

36:19

to be about crimes and how to solve murders

36:22

and things that really don't have anything to do with anything important

36:24

if you ask me. But they're talking

36:26

to you on the porch. They're talking to you off the stage.

36:29

Can you share one or two of

36:32

the most prevalent

36:34

questions? Because I think that there's

36:36

so much, it's so awkward for students to talk

36:39

to their parents about sexuality just like

36:41

you. Your parents had no idea

36:43

for the longest time because you're not going to share that

36:45

with them. This

36:47

is probably also true for everyone else.

36:51

But then a speaker comes in and shares,

36:53

and this is not your parent and this is probably never

36:56

going to get back to your parent. So you're probably going to hear

36:58

questions that most parents

37:00

don't hear. So what kinds

37:02

of questions are you

37:03

hearing, even the questions that prompted you to make

37:05

this project possible? Yeah, definitely.

37:10

Five years ago, it was still a lot

37:12

of questions on sexuality. I think I'm

37:15

gay or my cousin is gay. What

37:17

do I do? My

37:20

uncle or my cousin or my sister is getting

37:22

married. What

37:27

do I do? Should I go? Those are

37:30

common questions. My answer

37:32

is we need to be full of grace, full of truth,

37:34

not just accommodate. Because I think sometimes

37:36

Christians are like, just do whatever they want because

37:39

we just need to maintain the relationship. Well,

37:41

when we say it like that, we give the impression

37:43

that maintaining the relationship is

37:45

the most important thing. That's not. We

37:48

want them to be reconciled to God. Reconciliation

37:52

between man does not save anyone. And

37:54

I'm not saying that we need to be kind of abrasive

37:56

and try to push people away. Absolutely not.

37:59

But that is not our ultimate. Our ultimate

38:01

goal must always be Christ. I

38:05

personally cannot be there for that

38:08

actual two-hour ceremony, but if it's

38:11

someone who is my family member, I could be there for the weekend,

38:13

I could be there for the other family reunion meetings

38:16

and parties and get-togethers. I just

38:18

can't be there for that meeting. The reason is because

38:21

not only do I have a high view of what marriage is between

38:23

a man and a woman because it's throughout scripture. It

38:25

begins with a wedding, Genesis 2, it ends

38:28

with a wedding, Revelation 19. But

38:31

also, we need to realize, see this is what

38:33

I rarely hear people mention, what

38:35

is our job

38:37

in a sense when we are at a wedding? Not just to

38:39

be there, oh, you know, yeah, nice, you know, we're so

38:42

happy for you, not at all. Our

38:45

job actually being there is that we are witnesses

38:48

and we're going to help these two people hold

38:50

to their vows. Well, Jim, I can't

38:52

do that. I cannot hold,

38:54

help a

38:57

gay couple in a so-called gay marriage to hold

38:59

to their vows because that's not a vow

39:01

that God actually even honors.

39:04

So I can't be present for that, but I

39:06

could be present there for the whole weekend to be there.

39:09

This is my family member, I love them, and I want to be there

39:11

for them and the whole family and show even their

39:13

friend, their partner, that God

39:16

loves them and I love them as well. So

39:19

I think that's being full of grace and full of truth. The

39:21

question is just

39:23

a whole thing about gender dysphoria. Either

39:27

they talk about that they

39:29

struggle themselves, that is huge now, where

39:33

we have their classmates that

39:36

I don't even think they even actually struggle with gender dysphoria.

39:38

They're just identifying as non-binary

39:40

so that way they don't have to be considered

39:43

a white Christian male

39:45

anymore. They can say, I'm non-binary. Right. And

39:47

this is the thing, what do you have to

39:50

do to identify as gay? Well, you

39:52

have to have some actions that follow that. What do you

39:54

have to do to identify as non-binary? Nothing.

39:57

Nothing.

39:58

You're gay.

39:59

Your actions don't have to change. You could

40:02

just actually just be a little quirky.

40:04

That's easy. But you could just wear

40:07

different clothes or paint your nails black

40:09

and poof, you're non-binary. That doesn't

40:11

change any of your behaviors. You can still

40:14

act any way that you want. It's

40:17

all of this. Here's a side note. All

40:20

of this gender stuff. Here's

40:23

the thing. It's erasing

40:25

women.

40:26

When you think

40:29

about, like when people say, I have a non-binary baby,

40:31

you know what that means? That they don't buy girl

40:33

clothing, they just buy boy clothing. That basically

40:35

you just make this baby into a boy. Because

40:38

a boy, essentially, those clothes are supposed

40:40

to be gender neutral. Which is so, kind

40:43

of just, it's erasing girls. So being

40:45

a girl now is bad. Talk about anti-feminism.

40:49

True feminism is really supporting the value

40:52

of women, not all the other stuff

40:54

that says that women and men are somehow

40:56

the same. That whatever man can do, a woman

40:58

can do. That's just so contrary to

41:00

fact. We are equal

41:02

in God's eyes. But

41:06

that's the thing when it comes. I hear a lot of questions

41:08

now about, man, even

41:12

some people are like, all my friends, they're

41:14

all non-binary and stuff like that. Usually

41:16

when people ask that, I say, so what

41:19

do you see as a value? What's the purpose of having

41:21

a friend? That should be actually

41:24

people that are challenging us to love

41:26

Christ more. Our closest friends should

41:28

be that. Our closest relationships, our parents, our

41:31

brothers and sisters, our closest friends. And

41:34

then when all of your closest friends are

41:36

a certain way and they're not Christian,

41:39

could that be reflecting something

41:41

that's more internal? And

41:44

then another really common question that I hear from teenagers

41:47

is, especially from young

41:49

preteen girls, I think I'm asexual.

41:53

I hear that a lot, lot now. And

41:57

as we know as apologists, a lot of people

41:59

are like, well, I'm asexual. never

44:00

change. And not that that has to be

44:02

a goal, that you have to have sexual

44:04

desires, but don't make that who you are and

44:07

don't let that hinder any

44:09

possibility that God might have

44:11

for you like myself. I

44:14

don't have to become quote-unquote a

44:16

heterosexual. I don't need to be attracted to lots

44:19

of women to get married to one woman. I

44:22

need to love this

44:24

woman as Christ loved

44:26

the church by laying his life down for her and

44:29

have desires for

44:31

her that are definitely romantic

44:34

and can be in many cases it will

44:36

be sexual in nature but I don't need to make

44:38

sexual desires for the opposite sex or

44:41

even that person the prerequisite

44:44

for marriage. It

44:46

needs to be love and a godly

44:49

love and and also God's

44:51

will.

44:52

So so great, so robust. The

44:55

curriculum is actually very robust.

44:57

It's grossly underpriced. I just hope

44:59

everyone who looks and

45:01

thinks about this issue there's a lot of stuff

45:03

that's going to challenge the Christian worldview

45:06

in the next generation but this it's

45:08

always been sex, identity,

45:11

marriage. These are the things that are

45:13

under attack right now and it used to be that people

45:15

would say like I do like Jesus I'm just

45:18

not fond of Christianity but that's probably because

45:20

they don't know what Jesus taught about

45:22

marriage and sexuality and identity and once

45:25

they discover what it is they don't like Jesus

45:27

either and if we want our kids to

45:30

love Jesus to have the Spirit of God

45:32

alive in them to have Christ alive

45:35

in them we're gonna have to help them address

45:38

these issues because the culture is certainly telling

45:40

the opposite. So Christopher thank you so much for taking

45:43

the time. I mean that was a very long project.

45:45

I remember as you were kind of working through

45:48

it I wasn't quite sure what to make of

45:50

it right I was thinking wow this is something that sometimes

45:52

you know that your publisher will bang it out in a week

45:54

and and it's but it would never have been

45:56

this. It would never have been this robust.

45:58

It would never have been this targeted

46:01

if you had done it that way so I'm so glad you

46:04

stuck to your guns and you did it the way you

46:06

did it. So everyone please visit holysexuality.com

46:10

and take advantage of this great

46:12

curriculum that's out there. Christopher, thank you so much for

46:14

coming on our podcast. Oh, thank you so much for having

46:16

me on, Jeff. God bless

46:18

you. To hear more from

46:20

J. Warner Wallace, please visit coldcasechristianity.com. For

46:22

more information on this week's topic, visit youtube.com

46:25

slash coldcasechristianity with J. Warner

46:27

Wallace. Thank you for joining us on this week's

46:29

Cold Case

46:30

Christianity Bracket.