0:00

And it's a strange thing because you'd think sort of, having had the success that I had with my first book in particular, you know, and being number one in the bestseller list, you would think, oh God, well, why would you have imposter syndrome after that?

0:11

But it's not. I don't think that's how the mind works.

0:16

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation Podcast with your host, bestselling author Nadine Matheson.

0:23

As always, I hope that you're well, I hope that you've had a good week and I hope that you've been enjoying these spring days filled with sunshine, because it makes an absolute change from the dark clouds and the rain that we've all had to endure for the past couple of months, so I hope that you're enjoying it Now.

0:40

Earlier today, I was watching X-Men 97, which is not a reboot but a continuation of the X-Men animation series from the 90s, and you all know I'm a fan.

0:52

You know I'm a great big comic book fan. If you've been watching, then you will understand why episode 5 of X-Men 97 broke me.

1:01

It absolutely broke me.

1:04

Was there tears at the end? Was I sitting on the edge of my seat?

1:08

Yes, and it got me thinking.

1:11

When was the last time that you watched a film, a TV show or an animated series, or read a book or listened to a piece of music that moved you?

1:22

Because there has to be one. There has to be one film, book, piece of music that moved you.

1:25

Because there has to be one. There has to be one film, book, piece of music that has moved you and I want to know.

1:31

So you can dm me on my social media pages or you can send an email to the conversation at nadimapersoncom and let me know.

1:40

Now let's get on with the show.

1:42

This week I'm in conversation with Sunday Times and New York Times best-selling author, sj Watson, whose debut novel Before I Go to Sleep well, it's an understatement to say that it went stratospheric Whatever is beyond stratospheric.

1:57

That is what it did, and in today's conversation, sj Watson and I talk about how you can prepare for failure but not for success, how your goalposts can shift when you have success, and the consequences of always showing up as an author.

2:12

Now, as always, sit back.

2:15

We'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation.

2:18

Sj Watson, welcome to the conversation.

2:21

Thank you for having me. You are welcome. It's a delight to be here.

2:24

It's a delight to have you. We're very excited because Steve and I know each other and because we know each other.

2:31

My first question is based off what you said at Iceland Noir, which took place last year, and I was sitting in your panel and you said and I've written a note you said that in your old job, when you worked at the NHS, that you, you stand up and you walk away knowing that you did a good job to when you leave, but as a writer you walk away and stand up and say I don't know what I'm doing.

2:55

So my first question just kind of two parts to it, because it's basically a bit of imposter syndrome.

3:01

So my first part of the question is do you ever get over imposter syndrome or do you feel like you need to have that feeling as a writer to keep going?

3:10

oh god, well, I mean, I, I don't, I don't know that you ever do get over it.

3:15

I'm not sure. Um, I hate the idea of it being something that's kind of necessary.

3:20

But I wonder if maybe it is, because I mean, I do know of people and I won't mention names, um, but I do know people who I don't think do have imposter syndrome and they're kind of um, irritating to huge.

3:35

There are some very entitled people out there, and I'm not just talking about um in the, in the world of writing and books and stuff.

3:41

There is. There are just lots of very entitled people who I don't think have imposter syndrome, but they sort of they just breathe, they seem to just breeze through life on this kind of um cloud of entitlement and and that I find that very um, I'd rather have imposter syndrome than be, than be one of them, um, although they're probably perfectly happy and getting on really well.

4:00

But yeah, I don't know, I think it's just the nature of what we.

4:04

I mean, I don't know if you agree, but the nature of what we do.

4:06

There is such long gaps, especially with me because I'm so slow, but there are such long gaps between you know when, when the words go onto the page or the computer screen in the first place and then and then, when anyone gives you any feedback, it's such a long time that you can easily get yourself in a kind of um, a negative spiral of um.

4:26

Can I do this? Is this any good? my mom, my parents ask me all the time, my mom in particular, how it's going, because you know she obviously cares and she's looking forward to the new book, um, so she'll ask me all the time how it's going and I'll always say I don't know.

4:38

And I think she, she sort of I think she just thinks I'm being sort of coy or or difficult or or um, don't want to talk about it, which is kind of partly, partly I don't really want to talk about it, but it's also.

4:49

It's like I genuinely don't know, because you know I wrote a thousand words today.

4:53

Will those thousand words end up in the finished published book?

4:57

Who knows? I don't know at this point.

4:59

So it's always difficult. It's a bit of an exploration, isn't it?

5:06

And a bit of an exploration isn't it? and a bit of a um, you know um a voyage into the unknown no it's because you don't know until someone says something to you later on how it's going yeah, and, like in my old job, it was just, you know, I used to work, I was bait on him.

5:18

This is very simplified version of what I used to do, but I was essentially testing children's hearing and you know, and so and so if I had a day that it didn't go particularly, or a patient that didn't go particularly well, um, I knew I could test children's hearing because you know, the day before had gone okay and tomorrow is probably gonna go okay.

5:35

So I kind of it was easy for me to say, well, I can, I can do this job.

5:39

I didn't have a good day today, or maybe it was a difficult patient or I didn't establish a rapport because I was working with children, um, so obviously there's a lot more than just being able to press the right buttons, but, um, you know, I knew I could basically do it.

5:52

I mean, and deep down, you know, I know I can basically do this, I do know I can write.

5:57

You know it's taken me a while to even be able to say that.

5:59

Um, and it's a.

6:02

It's a strange thing because you, you'd think sort of having had a, the success that I had with my first book, in particular, uh, you know, and being number one in the bestseller list, you would think, oh god, well, why would you have imposter syndrome after that?

6:12

But but it's not.

6:14

I don't think that's how the mind works, so that's not how my mind works but it's you know, when you've had early success, especially, you know the sort of success that you had.

6:24

No one can prepare for that at all.

6:27

No, no, and it's a kind of it's a luxury problem, you know.

6:31

You know it's better than better than I mean.

6:34

You can prepare, but yeah, it's true, I've never really thought of it like that.

6:37

But you can prepare for failure, you can. You can talk to yourself, you can give yourself a pep talk about what would I do if this doesn't work very well, or what if I do, if I don't find a publisher, if it gets published but doesn't sell.

6:47

You can sort of talk yourself, you know, through that and prepare for it.

6:51

But you know, I know which I prefer.

6:54

I suppose you know.

6:58

But I think you know when you went, you got that initial success, but you're not prepared for it at all.

7:07

So how did you manage it?

7:12

Well, it's a weird one because it was kind of incremental.

7:16

I didn't go from, you know, the eve of publication to meeting Nicole Kidman.

7:22

It was stage by stage and I think it helps that.

7:26

You know it didn't happen when I was in my 20s.

7:28

I think that might have thrown me, you know, I might have just gone out and, you know, developed a cocaine habit or I don't know what.

7:36

But you know, I was kind of.

7:38

I was in my 40s, so I was sort of fairly and I've always been a fairly sensible person, to be honest anyway.

7:49

But I think I understood, well, I definitely understood from the beginning that it wasn't luck, but it also wasn't something that I was entitled to.

7:58

I think I understood that it was something that had happened.

8:03

I mean there's an element of luck, but what I mean is it was because that I that has happened.

8:05

I mean there's an element of luck, but what I mean is it was because I'd worked hard.

8:07

So I think I don't.

8:12

I mean I was lucky as well. You know I was always, you know again, I think partly because of my age when it happened I was surrounded by, you know, my friends and family.

8:21

They weren't going to let me get away with becoming a knob, you know, um, I've got my feet on the ground and and I don't know.

8:29

I think it's just the way I am. I'm just not a diva person.

8:31

I wasn't going to start appearing at literary festivals and demanding that they remove all the blue smarties from the room.

8:36

You know, I do remember.

8:38

I don't like, I don't know what you feel about. So when you sign books, I don't like signing with Sharpies.

8:42

You know the pen, Because I press really hard on the paper.

8:49

So whenever I have a.

8:50

Sharpie I've signed about three times the sort of sharp nib becomes this blunt kind of like, almost like a paintbrush, you know.

8:57

So I once said to my publicist in the early days, I once said I don't like Sharpies and all I meant was I could we make sure that when I'm doing signings there's another pen available?

9:08

But then I got to some bookshop and Alison, my publicist, had obviously phoned ahead and said remove all the sharpies.

9:13

Remove all the sharpies, because there was, there was one sharpie on the table and the and the and the person, the bookseller, whoever it was, just snatched this away like quick, don't let him see the sharpie.

9:24

It's like no, I'm not, I haven't got like, I'm not going to storm out or have a, you know, a fit, I'm just something.

9:30

So yeah, I've never been, it's just a preference.

9:32

Yeah, just a preference. Yeah, if you've got nothing else, I'm happy to sign with a sharpie, you know you know.

9:40

So when we're talking about your success, we're obviously talking about before I Go to Sleep, and I don't know.

9:46

For some reason I've said this to you before I always thought it was earlier than 2011.

9:49

But it was 2011 when it came out.

9:52

But you know, when you said the success is incremental, it's because you know the book came out in 2011.

10:03

But you would have been working on this book, I don't know how many years beforehand weirdly not that long, because that was.

10:06

That was my quick book. That was the book that I kind of did very quickly.

10:10

I mean, I started writing that in the January of 2000 and, oh god, was it nine or ten?

10:16

No, nine. So January, february, 2009 and it was the first draft was done by August, which I now realize for me is really really quick.

10:25

And then, and then the book was kind of finished finished in terms of send, being ready to send out to publishers by the April, so what?

10:33

14 months, um, so what, it wasn't a book that I mean, I served my apprenticeship in, as much as I'd been writing for years and years and years, but in that book, um, it wasn't something that I'd sort of spent.

10:45

I spent a little bit over a year working on it, um, so, yeah, I hadn't.

10:52

It wasn't that kind of, you know, um, something that I've been toiling away over for 10 years or something, but yeah, it does it does feel like you know a long time ago you know.

11:04

You know, when you were saying earlier because I've asked this question a couple of times recently that if you'd want your success now, or if you'd wanted to, I can't speak, or if you'd prefer to have the success when you were younger, so like in your 20s and your 30s and when you were saying that, I was thinking I suppose in your 20s you're looking at your friends around you and we're all probably all doing stupid things.

11:28

When you're in your 20s, I mean, that's the time when you make all your mistakes.

11:32

And maybe that's not going to be the best time for you to have crazy success, because you're going to be listening to the advice.

11:46

Well, yeah, I probably shouldn't say this, in case my old bosses are listening, or even some of my old patients who, let's face it, will be grown up by now, which is weird to think.

11:51

But, um, I shouldn't say it, but, like in my 20s, that was when I was sort of going out.

11:55

I was living in London and you know I'd just come out as gay and I was enjoying the social life, and that was when I was going out sort of not five nights a week, but, you know, often not like two or three in the morning, but late, you know, and I was going to work with a hangover and whatever, and getting in at two and then getting up at five and stuff and managing that.

12:15

And it's the irony of my life is that now I have a lifestyle because I work from home when I work and I don't have a day job.

12:24

So now I have a lifestyle in which I could theoretically do that.

12:27

You know, I could go out five nights a week or three but I don't want to anymore.

12:35

Yeah, maybe I. Maybe I would have been on my 19th book if it had happened when I was in my 20s, because maybe I'd have all that energy.

12:40

Or maybe I'd be dead, because maybe I would have given up my job and then I would just be literally drinking 24-7.

12:46

So, yeah, one or the other Either 19 books into my career or dead, I think.

12:53

I'm going to ask you a weird question. That is now I'm going to ask you a weird question.

12:57

Is there any part of your old life you know, when you were working for the NHS is there any part of that life that you miss?

13:07

um, only, I mean what we kind of touched on the very beginning I, I do sort of miss that regular affirmation, uh, that I'm I'm quite good at what I do, um, you know, but I've had to develop my own way of getting over that.

13:22

And also, I do sort of miss having colleagues, I mean people, people can be quite scathing about sort of social media and and x, formally known as twitter and instagram, and all that kind of stuff, but I do find that they're my sort of equivalent of having, you know, the conversations around the water cooler or around the kettle when you get to work.

13:40

You know I miss that. I miss the drinks after work, miss, I miss the kind of catching up with friends who I've made through work, who I wouldn't necessarily have even met, let alone, you know, developed a friendship with if I had, if it wasn't through the office, through work.

13:56

But no, I mean anything to do with a testing of children's hearing and kind of having to see because, you know, as I got more senior as well, liking lots and lots of jobs.

14:07

You know, as I got more senior, I was spending less time working with the families, which was the kind of thing, and the kids, which is the kind of the thing I enjoyed, at the beginning at least, and more and more time sitting in really boring meetings making decisions about what color paper clips to buy and whether we should use post-it notes or scraps of paper.

14:25

Um, this was the NHS in the 90s, so you can imagine what it was like.

14:29

Well, and the early 2000s actually, um, oh god, no goodness knows what it's like now.

14:33

It's probably even worse now, but, um, you know, I don't miss that.

14:36

I miss, I miss this.

14:38

Yeah, I miss the social aspects, I suppose yeah, you just reminded me of um when I was working and you said the same thing.

14:46

When you get more senior, the more you get involved in the administration of an organisation as opposed to doing the actual work.

14:53

And I just had a flashback to a very detailed and long discussion about the sort of notepads we should be using, whether we should be using buying, spending money on Blue Council's notebooks which is what we normally use, or buying just normal notepads from smiths.

15:09

You're like no, yeah, the important decisions that keep, keep our nation going.

15:15

It's like, what kind of notebooks do you um, so that I was never cut out for that, you know?

15:20

And and as it also kind of means as I got more senior in my job, I just became less and less happy because more and more of it was that and less and less of it was, you know, the fun stuff.

15:30

But even the fun stuff stopped being fun towards the end.

15:33

So you know, when you know, you say you become. So you know you because I'm assuming you always wanted to write so does that desire.

15:44

Does the skills then start to become more imbalanced, like?

15:48

you desire to write and satisfaction yeah, that's, that's pretty much what happened.

15:53

I remember I had quite a. It was quite an epiphanic, is that the way you say?

15:57

Anyway, I had an epiphany, but there was a moment when I remember thinking, you know, um, I always wanted to write, I always want, that was my ambition.

16:05

My ambition was not to be the deputy head or the head of a department in a hearing clinic in South East London.

16:10

My ambition was never that Well, my ambition was actually to be a dustpan.

16:15

Originally I wanted to be a refuse collector, but that was when I was four.

16:19

I mean, don't hold me to that. And then I wanted to be a rock star, but that's because everybody does, don't hold me to that.

16:31

And then I wanted to be a rock star, but that's because everybody does, don't they? And I wanted to be, yeah, um, but that I didn't even want to be an astronaut. I wanted to basically be someone from Blake 7 with laser guns.

16:34

So you know, my ambitions were not particularly achievable, or uh, down to earth, literally, but um.

16:41

But the one ambition you know I did have all through all that was, was to write books and to be a writer and to to see a book published.

16:47

I just realized that, that I wasn't. I wasn't um, I suppose I kind of realized that that wasn't going to happen unless I tried to do it.

16:55

It wasn't just gonna. I wasn't gonna wake up one day and find I've got a book, you know, on the shelf at WH Smith's or whatever.

17:03

Um, I had to put the work in.

17:06

I mean, I was, I was always writing, but I wasn't well, I was going to say I wasn't taking it.

17:10

I suppose I was taking it seriously, but I wasn't prioritizing it.

17:13

So you know, um, I think it's just that.

17:17

I think a lot of people don't know when, when, when you?

17:19

For me, it was when I was approaching my 40th birthday.

17:22

It happens at different times, but you know, that's kind of what a midlife crisis is, isn't it?

17:26

It's when you think, oh, you know, is this what I wanted to do with my life?

17:29

Is this where I wanted to be?

17:31

And I realised it wasn't. And also, you know, hopefully, 40 isn't you know, it's not that you're nearing death, hopefully, you know, none of us know, do we?

17:46

It's not that, but it's more that you just, but it was the first time, I think, I became sort of um, not, not, not the first time I became aware of my mortality, but maybe the first time I became aware that things were, doors were closing, you know, there were things I would.

18:01

I didn't have time to do. If I wanted to be an astronaut, I couldn't.

18:04

Now it was too late, you know. But also if I wanted to become a doctor, it's probably too late to do that.

18:08

If I want there were lots of things that you know and if I wanted to become a you know, I don't know but yeah.

18:13

So I just I think it was a refocusing of what, well, let's, let's decide, let's try and put some energy into what I really do want and I've always wanted it.

18:21

Um, so, yeah, so that's when I just kind of shifted the focus slightly.

18:26

Well, a lot in fact yeah, I think being 40 because I was thinking back to my 40th birthday.

18:33

It's kind of, I think when you think you're going to be thinking forward to your 40th birthday.

18:38

I didn't know, no looking back I have to look far back to my 40th birthday, but I think you know, when you look at your parents, their 40s is completely different to our 40s, if that makes sense.

18:52

So, even though I remember, looking at when I turned 40, I'm thinking I don't feel whatever 40 is supposed to be.

18:58

I don't feel that way.

19:01

Yeah, absolutely 100%. Yeah, I mean, I remember.

19:04

I think I remember my mom's 40th birthday.

19:07

I would, yeah, yeah, yeah, I would do because I would have been I don't know, I shouldn't say because it'll give away her age and she won't like that, but, um, yeah, I remember my mom's 40th, but I very clearly remember one of my my mom's younger sister's 40th birthday, because she had a big party and I did remember.

19:20

I do remember thinking, oh, these people are so old, you know, why would they have ambitions now?

19:25

Surely they're? You know, it's like that kind of, you know that that that thing that went around on Instagram or Facebook or Twitter or whatever, and it was like those kids that had sort of been asked to describe what 40 year olds were like and what some one of the kids had written I am 40, I, I walk around with a stick and I will soon die, you know, but that's, but maybe it wasn't that bad, but I did, it did, it didn't.

19:45

When I became 40. It didn't feel like I thought it would back then, if that makes sense.

19:51

Um, and it still doesn't.

19:53

I mean, I'm 52, well, I'm 52 now, yeah, I'm 53 nearly, and and it still doesn't.

19:57

I don't feel any different now than where I did when I was 40 um no you know.

20:02

So it's kind of it's kind of strange. Maybe you just realize that you're inside, you always feel the same, just the body starts to kind of slightly yeah, your knees hurt your back hurts.

20:15

I think when you reach that age and you've been doing a job, so I've been, god, I think when I was 40, I don't I've been practicing as a solicitor for I don't know now maybe 11, I think 12 years.

20:26

I've been working in that field and then I think it's just like a natural crossroads where you're looking, okay, what you know, how much time do I have ahead of me, what have I done and what do I really want to do, and are you happy?

20:42

yeah, are you happy? Exactly, that's, that's one of that's the key thing, because often, often, you go.

20:46

I think it's strange, isn't it? Because you kind of go through life not everybody, obviously.

20:50

I don't want to generalize, but it's very easy to go through life kind of on this pre-pre-arranged track.

20:55

You know you're expected to kind of. You know you go to school and then you probably will go on and do a levels and you probably go on and do a degree and you might do a postgraduate degree, and then you get a job, and then you try and get a promotion, and then you try and get a house somewhere along the way.

21:08

You know you might pick up a partner, and you probably might, depending on you know your sexuality and your preferences.

21:13

You might then have children and then you want a bigger house to accommodate, and it feels like there's this kind of track that you're on um and then, but at some point you you maybe realize that, oh is, am I on the right track?

21:26

Though you know it's no coincidence. I think that's also an age when lots of people decide to separate and have affairs and you know, whatever, because I don't know, and also, I suppose, in terms of career and stuff.

21:37

40, you know if you're 40, you've still got time.

21:41

If you want to to have another career, you know, yeah, whereas the longer you leave it, obviously if you're going to retire at what?

21:46

65 or 7 or whatever it is now, then you know you've got less and less time the older you get, obviously.

21:51

So I don't know, it's this kind of strange. Um, kind of yeah, I do joke about it was my midlife crisis but rather than buy a Ferrari well, I couldn't have afforded a Ferrari, obviously rather than buy a push bike or you know, gone and lived in yeah, bought a moped that's probably more like it actually, other than buy that moped, I decided to enroll on a writing course because that's the exciting, wild kind of guy I am.

22:22

I just, I remember thinking, I always remember my grandmother, um she, she said to me one time I went to visit her because, you know, as a solicitor, and especially one who was always in the crown court, I always had like at my you know the, the small suitcases, the cabin size ones.

22:38

I've always got one of those behind me filled with my wig and my gown and my case files, because I'm going to different courts.

22:44

And my grandmother says do you really want to be like running up and down the halls dragging this suitcase behind you?

22:51

And I remember thinking I don't know if I want to.

22:53

When I turned 40 I thought I don't know if I want to carry on running up and down all over the country dragging this suitcase behind me.

23:00

I want to do other things and I thought, sometimes I feels like it feels like a it's now or never yeah moment, yeah, absolutely, yeah, exactly.

23:10

Yeah. It felt like yeah, now or never.

23:13

Um well, did it. Well, I think it's fun.

23:19

Weirdly, I sort of equate it. When I gave up smoking, I stopped smoking.

23:22

I was quite a heavy smoker for all of my let me think, yeah, all of my 20s um, which weirdly coincided with going out all the time, and in those days of course, you could smoke in pubs and clubs and stuff.

23:34

But yeah, that was not yeah, not good, um, but so, yeah, I was a heavy smoker and then I remember I just kind of knew I didn't want to smoke the rest of my life and there was one day when I thought, if I want to stop smoking again I think it was a similar thing I just thought, you know, I'm not going to wake up one day and suddenly think, oh, I don't want to smoke anymore.

23:54

You know, I was going to have to put the effort in and and do the work to stop smoking and it felt like weirdly the same, like I'm not going to wake up and find I no longer work in the NHS.

24:04

I've now got a book published. I've got to do it.

24:10

Yeah, but the thing is, there's always steps to it.

24:13

Yeah you have to try. There's always steps to it, but I always find it's a thing you know, when other people are looking at you, they don't see the steps.

24:22

Oh, totally.

24:23

All they're going. They don't see the steps.

24:24

Oh, totally yeah all they're gonna see is one day Steve was working in the NHS and I've heard that he left.

24:29

And then I'm getting off the tube at Tottenham Court Road and I see a poster before I go to sleep with FA Watson.

24:37

They're not looking at the incremental steps between absolutely, yeah, and I mean, and even even sort of.

24:42

You know, when I do interviews and things, that doesn't help because you, you know, people will say well, how did you?

24:48

How did you become a writer? Because you used to work in the NHS and of course, you give them the short version, you give them the.

24:52

Oh, one day I decided I want to be a writer.

24:54

So therefore, I went part time at work and enrolled on a course and started working in the in the evenings, because the long version would take an hour to tell and and it would.

25:06

It would involve a lot of, um, you know, okay, I was going to say pain, I mean, I'm exaggerating, but it would involve a lot of the.

25:13

You don't talk about the hardships and all the stages, that you get the setbacks and you get the disappointments and you get the and you get the.

25:20

You know, I didn't just decide to go part-time at work.

25:22

Obviously I had to wait for a job to be advertised and then I had to fill in the application form and hope I would get it and have that anxiety about whether I would.

25:29

So, yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right, because you don't talk about you give them.

25:33

You give people the short version which sounds like a fairy tale.

25:35

Um yeah, but you know of course, nothing ever.

25:38

Is you know? Um well, very few things are no, some people they want.

25:43

They want the fairy tale. Oh, I've said it before, they want the magic, they want the magic bullet as to how to get into publishing and get your your tube poster and sometimes they're not really interested in the the story of the hard work I think you're absolutely right.

26:00

I think so many people think that it's there, yeah, that there is some kind of magic formula, that when that people inside, people who've been published, or people in the industry we're refusing to tell them what the password is or what the door code is, and that's why they can't get in and actually there isn't one.

26:14

There is no magic bullet. As you know, it's work and you know, and it's of course, but we would say that because I'm not going to tell people what the magic bullet is.

26:23

You know and it's of course, but we would say that because I'm not going to tell people what the magic bullet is.

26:28

So you know, when you did, when you completed your um, your course at Faber, what did you have an intention with your book?

26:34

Or did you just because I remember when I finished my course I didn't really have an intention?

26:38

My, actually, no, that's probably a lie. I think there's kind of two parts to it was.

26:42

I'll send it to agents and see what happens if you get if I get signed, good, if I don't, then I know I've got a second option.

26:49

I was like, well, I'll just self-publish. I've self-published before, I just self-published.

26:53

Yeah. So I wasn't thinking beyond, I wasn't.

26:55

I couldn't think any further than that but when was this for you?

27:00

how long ago was it?

27:02

it would have been. I did. I started the course 2016 and I finished it 2018 right and then I never then I signed 2019 it was quick.

27:14

I, I never really considered self-publishing, and I think that's partly at least because I think, because we're now talking, this would be 2010, when I, no, 2009, actually, when I was on the course.

27:27

So I think back then, unlike when you were finishing your course, I think self-publishing still felt a little bit like the second, you know, the second best, the kind of what failures do I mean?

27:41

I'm slightly, I don't really mean that, but but I think it's not as um, it's not.

27:50

It wasn't seen back then as being as valid a thing as it is now.

27:52

I mean, now I think I would certainly do that. I would do exactly the same thing as you, as in if I would have said to myself if it doesn't, you know, if I don't find a traditional publishing route, I'll get this book out through self-publishing.

28:03

Um, but back then it wasn't what I wanted at all.

28:05

So, no, I mean, I think you know what the course taught me as much as anything is that this is what I want to do and this is what I remember thinking.

28:20

You know I was reasonably. You know I was reasonably, I was confident with, before I Go Sleep, that I'd written a good book because the people on my course, my tutor, my colleagues on the course.

28:31

They all liked what I was doing and thought I was onto something.

28:34

So I was reasonably sure that this was.

28:37

You know, I'd written a good book, but then lots of people write good books and they don't get published.

28:41

So I wasn't sure that it would be published by any means, far from it.

28:55

But I think the course because it kind of lit a fire in me and I realized this is very much what I wanted to do it did make me think.

28:57

My plan was if, before I go to sleep it wasn't called that then, but we don't need to talk about that but if this book doesn't get picked up by an agent or a publisher, I'll write another one and I'll keep going.

29:05

I remember saying to in the pub after one of the classes.

29:08

I said I'll keep on going until someone puts a gun to their head, my head, and says just stop.

29:12

Um, you know as I.

29:14

Well, I mean, I'm joking. But what I meant by that, I think, was I'll keep on going for as long as I feel I'm getting better and getting nearer to that target.

29:21

If I ever feel like I've stalled, like I'm not improving, I'm not getting any nearer to being published, then maybe I'll look at doing something else.

29:27

Um, but that's what it kind of, that's what it really did for me, and so that was my.

29:32

My plan was to try my hardest with before I go to sleep and then, if that didn't work, um, try, try, try and get another book.

29:40

Um, you know, write another book and try and get that one published, just keep going, but then when you get more than it's not even what you dreamed of, because I said you know I don't.

29:48

Well, unless you're going to tell me otherwise, you were dreaming of no multiple deals and no, it's no.

29:57

I mean, I remember my then partner.

30:00

I remember really clearly we were sitting in a restaurant and we I think you know, and I must've probably just done the court or just come back from the course, whatever it was for dinner, late dinner, and I remember saying, well, I just met Claire Conville, who's now my agent, and I remember saying to my ex, oh God, I said you know, in an ideal world, I'm going to finish this book and I'm going to give it to Claire and she's going to love it and she's going to sell it around the world for mega bucks and I'm going to give up work and someone's going to make a film out of it.

30:29

And the films I mean I didn't quite say the film's going to star Nicole Kidman, but I, you know, but it was pure fantasy.

30:35

It was pure fantasy. I'm in my head, oh, in my ideal world, I'm going to step out of this restaurant and I'm going to trip over a lottery ticket on the floor and it's going to turn out to be the winning ticket.

30:47

It felt almost as an impossible dream as that.

30:53

So in many ways it wasn't my dream. Because it was a dream, I didn't dare to have.

30:57

My biggest ambition really at that time was I suppose, yeah, I'll give it to Claire Conville and she'll like it and she'll find somebody that will publish it.

31:02

I suppose, yeah, I'll give it to Claire Conville and she'll like it and she'll find somebody that will publish it. And maybe I'll one day be able to walk into a branch of you know Waterstones or whatever and see a book of mine on the shelf, and that felt like that was the impossible dream.

31:14

And the weird thing, of course, is that is that?

31:16

Is that that that you think that that will be enough as long?

31:22

If that happens, then job done, success, I'll be happy.

31:27

But you realize, you know, that actually success breeds the desire for more if you're not careful yeah and you start to you know, I didn't.

31:38

You know, I went from. I'm being brutally honest with you now, but I went from that.

31:42

As long if I can one day walk into a shop, a bookshop, and see my own book on the shelf, that will be happy.

31:50

I'll never want anything else again. That's all I need.

31:53

I went from that to well, okay, my book's been at number one in the bestseller for seven weeks.

31:58

Why wasn't it eight weeks? You know, not quite that stroppy, but but your, your goal posts just shift, I suppose, if and if you're not care.

32:09

I think this is a difference with what I was saying earlier. I think if I'd have been younger and more entitled, I might have really had a hard time when, when something knocked before I go to sleep off the bestseller list, or when I read my first negative review, or when I don't know what you know.

32:27

But because I was that bit older, I was a bit more sort of.

32:30

I mean, I still felt those feelings.

32:32

Oh, I wanted to be a number one for eight weeks, not seven weeks.

32:36

Why is it only seven? I still felt that, but I was also aware that that was kind of ridiculous and that I should just act my age and be happy with the success you know I got yeah.

32:51

It reminds me of there's this interview that I listen to a lot, when I want to like give myself.

32:55

Well, get myself back to earth, give myself a reality check and she interviewed this author and I'm going to get her name wrong.

33:02

I think it's Sarah Ban Bre band breath tackle bracknack, and she was back in the late 90s or mid 90s and she wrote this book I think it's called a little book of gratitude and she was new york times number one bestsellers for ridiculous I can't tell you the number, it was just a ridiculous number of weeks and she said she always used to get notified by her publicist on the, I think on the Tuesday or the Wednesday say, no, you're still number one.

33:27

You're still number one. And then the day she didn't get the phone call and she's like what?

33:32

I've got the phone call. So she calls the publicist and says you haven't called me.

33:36

She's like, yeah, because you're not number one. Yeah, this week and it always sticks in my mind because she was so shocked like what do you mean?

33:43

Like I've always been number one, so I was thinking how do you like?

33:48

how do you, you know, can we always talk about mental health a lot right now?

33:51

I think even back then we probably didn't talk about it as much yeah it's like we're talking about 2009, well, 2011.

33:59

But how do you cope with yourself mentally and emotionally when you've got this runaway success, because you can't put a handle on it?

34:08

It's like you've got no control over it whatsoever.

34:13

No, um uh, well, um, I wish I could answer that.

34:20

Um, you could, almost.

34:23

You could have almost ended the question with how do you cope with yourself, like I don't manage yourself some days I think I'm just a bit much um, no, um, yeah, I mean, I suppose the nature of who I am helped.

34:43

You know, I, I, I I'm not, I wasn't going to get overly excited.

34:50

I mean I'm I'm never been a kind of punch the air.

34:52

You know, I feel I feel the pleasure and I feel the satisfaction and I feel all of the joy of success when it happens.

35:00

But I don't, I don't get overly. You know, I'll pop the champagne cork but I won't spray it over the crowd because that's good champagne, I'm not going to drink that, I'm not going to spray it.

35:08

You know, and that kind of. You know, I'm sure if I was a footballer I wouldn't be one of these that scores a goal and then, like, goes and hugs everyone.

35:14

I'll be just like, yeah, okay, call that, go now, get away from me.

35:16

Yeah, it's gonna go right, get on with the job.

35:18

Gotta score another one now. And I think it was that. It was kind of that.

35:21

Really, it was kind of okay. Yeah, I've scored the goal, got the, I've got the success, I've got to.

35:25

Got to score another goal now. I kind of just got my head down and and it's, it's sort of strange because at the time, I thought I was coping with it all very well, um, but I do look back on that time and sort of think I was slightly uh, I was going to say out of control.

35:43

I wasn't out of control, that's not what I mean, I was.

35:45

I struggled with the writing for a long time.

35:48

I was second guess, second guessing everything I did in terms of putting the words on the page.

35:54

Let's face it, that's the most important thing with anything that we do is is the words on the page.

35:59

That's what our measure of success is, I think, isn't it so?

36:02

Um, and I was second guessing that because there's a.

36:07

There's a stephen king quote I really like. He says that you have to write and I'm obviously paraphrasing it, but he says you have to write the first draft with the door closed, um, and the second draft with the door open, by which, you know, my interpretation of that is that he means that you know you've got to write the first draft, as if no one is going to read it, because that allows you the freedom to explore and to experiment and to, you know, um, to go off on a tangent and discover the story and whatever.

36:31

Um, and I just found it really difficult to keep the door closed because it because I would sit at my desk in the morning or whenever, and just I felt like I was on.

36:40

You know, on my left hand was my agent, on my on my right was my editor.

36:42

Behind me were hundreds, thousands, if not millions, of readers all looking over my shoulder going oh, I wouldn't put that bit there, oh, I don't like the way this is going, you know.

36:52

So I found myself and also, I think you know I've always kind of struggled with writer's block and I've always kind of slightly glibly said you know, plumbers don't have plumbers block.

37:06

You know you didn't have um barrister or solicitors block, did you?

37:10

You know, if you, if you had a job to do, you had to stand there and do it, you couldn't say to the judge oh, I didn't feel it today, so I haven't come in, sorry, you know.

37:19

So many, you had to do it. I mean, god, there was one time I'd I'd collapsed on, I had from a medical issue.

37:25

I'd collapse at the tube station on a friday and I was doing a robbery trial at the old bailey on the monday and I still dragged and say dragged my ass literally to court on a monday.

37:35

I gave the judge a note which passed on to the clerk saying that I need to leave early to do an appointment.

37:39

But yeah, I still turn up.

37:43

Yeah, you show up yeah, and I think what threw me was I kind of so I I do still believe that of it, you know, you do still have to show up, and even as a writer, you know, I know but I think I went a bit too far in that direction.

38:00

So I kind of I went through a period of thinking I've got to get another book written and I just need to show up and write the thousand words and I sort of I ended up writing myself in into a, into a hole really, because I wasn't actually considering what my energy levels were like and whether I was writing the right, the correct thousand words, you know, whether I was taking the story in a good direction.

38:21

So I think it threw my writing a lot and I cannot remember what your question was now, but I hope I've answered it.

38:29

I can't remember it either, but I do that a lot.

38:33

I was thinking, though, that you know when you're talking about the Stephen King quote you know writing with the door closed, which makes sense to me.

38:41

But then I was thinking it's going to be hard to close the door when you're success, especially when you're writing the first, the second book and everyone has I don't know anyone who hasn't doesn't have that second book syndrome.

38:51

So it's going to be hard to write your second book when your success is so loud.

38:55

But even if you close the door, you know, if you decide to go and take a break and turn on the tv and you turn it on sky, you your your movie.

39:12

I'll say the movie, yeah it was also stuff outside of the book too.

39:17

Like my whole world sort of changed in a way.

39:21

Um, you know, I moved flat, I got married to and, um, well, civilly partnered um, I.

39:30

This is all in the space of the the same month the book came out.

39:34

Actually I turned 40. Well, no, not the same month, but the within a couple of months I turned 40, got civilly partnered, moved, house book came out, and.

39:44

But then that was just the beginning, because then you know my relationship with my, with my, with my partner.

39:51

We went from he was the main breadwinner I said not really main breadwinner, but he had the more senior job yeah and I was the kind of just bumbling along testing kit not exaggerating, but you know, bumbling along, testing kids hearing, and dabbling with writing on the side and then suddenly that script completely flipped and I was the main breadwinner and I was bringing in more money than we thought we would ever have, and he stopped working and kind of lost his sense of identity.

40:17

And so, you know, all this stuff was going on as well and it didn't make it easier to kind of try and negotiate this.

40:25

It was very destabilizing. I mean, I try not to complain about it because you know lots of things are destabilizing and if you're going to be destabilized by something, you're better off being destabilized by a big success, you know.

40:38

But, it was still destabilizing. You know there's a reason that Faber doesn't do a course called how to Survive a Huge Success with your First Book, but sometimes I think maybe there is need for one.

40:50

I think there's need. I was talking about this last week, I think, or two weeks ago, with Katie Brent and we were basically saying that there needs to be some kind of therapy with being an author.

41:01

Because, especially with. And the thing is is success is?

41:05

Everyone's got a different idea of success, so I'm just I'm just throwing numbers out there.

41:09

I'm not saying these are your numbers, but you know someone's success could be.

41:11

You know I'm happy to see my book. When I've walked into Smith's I'm just saying Smith's I've seen my book on the shelf.

41:17

Other book shops are available, but I've seen my book on the shelf.

41:23

Other bookshops are available, but I see my book on the shelf and you know I got my advance off let's say, I've got 20,000 pounds.

41:28

Yeah, yes, I still have to work, but I'm happy and that's my idea of success, because I did what I set out to do.

41:33

You know, other people might get the crazy seven figure deals and multiple foreign deals.

41:38

And then the tv and film rights go and they have that level of success, but you, because it's such a change from your norm or what you've known to be your norm.

41:44

And then the TV and film rights go and they have that level of success. But because it's such a change from your norm or what you've known to be your norm for so many years, you still have to learn how to live with that and there's no right way to react to it and the people around you can't really advise you and I mean like your friends and family, because they're kind of coming at it with you and they don't know.

42:10

Yeah, no, it's very difficult. And there is some talk. I mean, I think it's good in that there is some talk within publishing and within the industry now about how to support debut authors in their mental health.

42:16

Because, you know, I do think as well, it's an industry that that sort of um it can chew.

42:23

It can chew you up and spit you out if you're not careful.

42:25

Well, I should say, if you're not careful, there's nothing you can really do about it in a way.

42:30

But I suppose what I'm trying to say is you know, it's very easy, the publishing industry, you know, as a debut author and it's probably worse now but you get a book deal and everyone in your publishing house goes oh my God, this is amazing, this is incredible, we love it, we love you, you're brilliant, you're the best thing that's ever happened.

42:47

You know this is going to be number one across the world.

42:49

Blah, blah, blah. We can't believe we found you. So we're so excited.

42:52

All of that. And obviously, in nine times out of 10, or 95 times out of a hundred cases, that isn't what happens.

43:01

What happens is your book sort of lands in a, you know doesn't, doesn't land the way that they thought it would.

43:08

Or you know, richard Osman's book is released the same week or whatever, for whatever reason, um, and I think it's not an industry that is good at saying, okay, well, it's not your fault, you know, we'll try again next time.

43:20

It's more like okay, who are you again? Sorry, oh, did we publish your book?

43:22

Oh, didn't do very well, did it? Okay, whatever, it's not your fault, you know, we'll try again next time. It's more like okay, who are you again, sorry, oh, did we publish your book?

43:25

Oh, didn't do very well, did it? Okay, whatever, it's more like that. And that's hard, that's hard to go from that extreme.

43:31

So I think we are, I think, starting to look or talk at least about mental health, the mental health of debut authors, but I do think it's not just debuts that have an issue, I think it's all of us, that sort of um, because I think in many ways the two things are sort of um, publishing and writing are kind of mutually.

43:53

They're not easy bedfellows, because the I think one of the one of the things that's changed and I've seen change to an extent, although I think I came in at the beginning of this change, but I've seen it accelerate is, I think in the olden, in the olden days, you know, but a while ago, it felt like the publishing industry existed to publish the books that authors wanted to write, whereas now, I think, certainly in genre publishing and in commercial fiction, it definitely does feel like the industry thinks that we exist, the writers exist, to write the books they want to publish.

44:33

And I think you know celebrities writing books doesn't, or pretending they've written books in some cases doesn't help, doesn't, or pretending they've written books in some cases doesn't help.

44:49

Um, it just it just feels like an industry that's kind of eating itself in a way.

44:51

It's kind of it's, it's, I don't know. I've gone into, I've gone down a very depressing tangent.

44:57

I always say we go down a tangent. But you know, but you know what you're saying.

45:00

It's not just the debut authors, it's, it's all authors.

45:03

Yeah, you said especially. You know you could be on book number four, five or six, and you're just, you know, sometimes it could be a case of you're hoping that this book will be the one and you're still kind of probably holding on to the promises that were given to you when you weren't even published yet.

45:21

But you're sitting in that, sitting in the publisher's office, and they were telling you selling you the pipe dream and you're still holding on for that.

45:28

So it's so many, so different levels of pressure, with your debut two years in you've been doing it for 15 yeah yeah absolutely yeah, um what would?

45:40

You? What piece of advice do you wish you'd been told earlier in your career?

45:46

um, well, I should I probably.

45:48

It's kind of ties in with what we're talking about, really, and and, and it probably doesn't say a lot.

45:54

I mean, I, I think it's advice. I should have no one told me this, because I think I should have worked out for myself, but I didn't.

46:00

But I wish somebody had sat me down and said, well, after the success of before.

46:03

But I wish somebody had sat me down and said, well, after the success of Before I Go to Sleep, had sat me down and said you're a brand.

46:08

Now we don't want something weird and experimental.

46:13

We definitely don't want that. We don't even want something that's sort of still a crime book, but a little bit different from Before I Go to Sleep.

46:21

We want something that you're a brand, you're a very specific brand, and that's what we want again and again and again.

46:25

But no one ever really told me.

46:28

No one told me that and I probably probably because they thought I just accepted, just realized, you know.

46:35

So I do wish I'd kind of been told that, because at least then I could have made the decision if that's what I wanted you know um, because I think for any.

46:45

That's all gone. No, go on now.

46:48

I was gonna say I think it's hard for any creative person to consider themselves a brand, because as a creative person, you're thinking about your art and your whatever that art or craft is.

46:59

That's what your focus is on and you know, creating the best art, the best book, best piece of music you can.

47:07

You're not, but when you start thinking of yourself as a brand, that means you're gonna have to start thinking of the business and how you fit in the business, how the business operates.

47:16

And some people they don't. You know they don't care about the business.

47:19

Yeah, they care about getting paid, but as far as their business brain goes, you know how much am I getting paid for this?

47:25

Right, that's cool.

47:26

That allows me to do more but not in the business as a whole absolutely, you know, and I think you like talk about, you say about music.

47:37

But the musicians I've always admired are the people that that follow their own path and they and they and they, you and they.

47:43

You know each record might sound completely different to the one before, and that was kind of what I wanted to do, in a way.

47:50

I remember my agent saying to me once you know the books, every book you write will have your DNA in it, and that's the most important thing and that's what I kind of clung to.

48:00

But I actually I learned the hard way that that's not really what the industry wants, um, from me.

48:07

Anyway, they wanted, before I go to sleep, just told in a slightly different way or with a different, you know, different, uh, angle to it.

48:16

And they never said that, they never sat me down and told me that.

48:20

But so I wish that's the advice I wish someone had said, but then I don't know how I would have taken it.

48:25

You know I'm thinking about now. Maybe they did, and I just think I just chose to ignore it.

48:32

But what does SJ Watson want for himself now?

48:38

For a cup of coffee at the moment, but you mean career wise.

48:40

Yeah, career wise, I think you know I've, I was, I've been thinking this quite a lot.

48:46

I want to be able to carry on in terms of, in terms of financially.

48:50

You know, I don't, I don't, I never want, I'm not the kind of I don't want to buy a yacht or even traveling first class it feels like a bit or business class even.

49:01

It feels like a bit of a waste of money. Like you know, I'd rather spend the money on a better hotel when I get there, so I don't have expensive.

49:07

I want to be able to earn enough that I can carry on and that I can carry on, um, writing the books I want to write.

49:14

I think that's what I, that's what I'm trying to do now is sort of slightly extricate myself in a way from the industry side of things and maybe just put out good work, be allowed to write good books that I am proud of and want to write and and find a readership that that is hopefully large enough that it means I can go on doing that um you know I don't have any particular.

49:43

So I wrote a, a draft of a book which is an earlier draft of the book I'm working on now, and I remember my agent actually I don't think she'd read it at that point.

49:52

I think I told her about it and she said to me you're not exactly going after Richard Osman's audience, are you?

49:56

And it's like that wasn't the dig at Richard Osman.

49:59

You know, good luck to him and I know, I know, you know I haven't read his books but lots of my friends and family have and they say they're amazing.

50:06

I'm sure they are. This is in no way a dig at Richard Osman, but you know, I want, I want, I would rather I want.

50:15

I think I want to go back to the kind of slightly what we were talking about earlier with musicians of just finding my own path and and following my own passions.

50:23

You know I want to write a ghost book and the more, the more I'm thinking about it it's turning into more of a horror book.

50:28

So maybe I'm going to turn the steam thing um.

50:30

You know, someone like margaret atwood's career I've always really admired because it just feels like she, she just seemed.

50:37

You know, one book is historical fiction. One book is science fiction, although she doesn't like to call it that.

50:42

One book is contemporary women's fiction.

50:44

I suppose you could call it um, but they're all her and they're all brilliant.

50:50

Well, okay, arguably, but anyway, whatever, I'm zipping it now, um, yeah, just to be able to forge my own path and be able to carry on doing this, I think, is what I want, is really what I'm looking at.

51:00

Yeah, it'd be great.

51:03

It would be great if there was a tv series made of one of my books.

51:05

I would love that, of course I would. Who wouldn't?

51:08

yeah but it's not something I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm um actively pursuing, I suppose, other than by writing as good a book as I can right, this is not meant to sound offensive.

51:23

I don't know. I keep I seem to say that a lot recently. I don't mean to be offensive.

51:26

I'm bracing myself I don't think it's that bad, but do you, do you feel, have you ever felt that, like your author voice kind of got lost in that, say, this ongoing wave, or tidal wave of success do?

51:42

Do you mean? Do you mean my voice is as in who I am as a person and the writing I want to do?

51:47

Yeah, Um yeah, yeah, I think I think my second book, especially um, I think I think that book is a tricky one for me because it's not the book I wanted to write, if that makes sense, I.

52:05

But I think, okay, what do I mean by that? If I could have had, I think, if I could have had another year, I could have made that into a really good book.

52:12

I was really proud of um and as it is, it's just a book I'm proud of.

52:18

I am still proud of it, but but I do think that I can see its flaws, um, and the things I wanted to do that perhaps I if I wrote it again now and if and if um I a very famous author who I bumped well, not bumped into, but I ended up chatting to for an hour once and I won't say who it is, but she told me I should write a cover version of it.

52:42

I, because I told her this and a part of me wants to write a cover version of my second book, my own book, really.

52:47

Yeah, because I would. Just it was I don't know, there was an.

52:50

It was a bit more ambitious, I think my original plan and, and gradually, bit by bit, the ambitious side of it kind of got chipped away by the publishing industry and eventually I'm still proud of it.

53:02

You must still go out and buy it, ladies and gentlemen, please.

53:04

But I think that was the point at which I most, I think, felt that I was a mouthpiece for someone else's ideas rather than my own.

53:16

I think it's hard. You know what we're talking about before, like going back what we're saying when you've been in a different profession and you've been in control of your profession.

53:25

You know, you know exactly, you know firmly where you stand and what your goals are, what your place is and what's expected of you.

53:32

And then to switch to not having that same kind of security, you kind of given no, it's not give allowances, it's the wrong word but you kind of let people in take more control yeah, exactly that.

53:46

I mean, yeah, I'd never thought of it like that, but you're absolutely right.

53:49

You know, in my old job, in my NHS work, I had literally had a job description.

53:53

I literally had a, a document that feet that you know listed the things that I had to do, and I could literally point to something and say that's not him.

54:03

I mean not that I ever did, but you know, I could have pointed to something like that's not in my job description.

54:07

Um and then you have an appraisal at the end of the year if you met, yeah you're doing okay or you're not, but whatever, um, and then, and then, yeah, and then you find yourself in this creative industry, which is wonderful and it's great and the freedom is great.

54:21

But if you're, if you're not used to it, I think I think that's the key.

54:24

I think for a long time I I thought of myself as an employee of the publishers, and then it took me a long time to realize that I'm not, that actually, I I kind of employ them to to print in a way.

54:38

It's, it's a, it's a part of it, but you know, they're glorified printers, basically um what?

54:45

else do they? Do they just print?

54:49

If you're lucky, they might. They might, you know, spend 20 quid on marketing on a few facebook adverts some trainee has put together.

54:57

But they basically print the books and if you're lucky they get them into the shop.

55:01

But that's not guaranteed, I'm laughing, because it's true.

55:09

If you break it, if you strip it down to basics, what are you doing?

55:16

You're printing the books there's a reason why they don't.

55:20

I mean, I don't know if you feel the same, but there's it all fine, the same with you, but there's a reason why they don't.

55:24

They'll never tell you, they'll never say, well, we sold this many copies in smiths and this many copies in the airport, and this they never give you.

55:31

Of course they have that information, of course they do, but if you ask for it, they're like oh well, what do you want to know that for?

55:36

And if you say, well, what was your marketing budget?

55:38

Where did you spend the money on marketing? Oh well, what do you want to know that?

55:41

For? We have. We couldn't possibly give you that why but that's.

55:45

The question is like, why? But why shouldn't you know? And I think that's all that until they, until they change their ways the lack of transparency when it comes not when between the author and the publisher in regards to what are you going to be doing for me?

55:58

I know you've said you're going to do a, and that was all very nice.

56:01

When we're sitting in the bar, I hope you were filling my glass of wine yeah, but now that we're here and we're in the middle of it and we're moving along, you know it's like you're not, we're not just dating now, what else are you doing for me?

56:17

and that conversation doesn't happen no, no, uh, yeah, yeah, because and I think the industry's the industry's changing, isn't it?

56:27

Because I think more and more authors are kind of having to realize they kind of have to be also good at marketing and good at publicity and good at hustling and good at social media, and and eventually people are going to think, well, if I've got to be good at all this stuff and do it all myself, what's the point of actually?

56:42

Well, I might as well just self-publish or go with a little indie publisher, you know, and I think that's why self-publishing is becoming much more of a um, an interesting or indie publishing, because it's becoming much more of an interesting avenue to look at rather than one of the big five perhaps yeah, it's not only that it's interesting, it's just that it's more.

57:05

The means are there for you to do all these things.

57:07

Now, like all the information is available to you.

57:09

If you want to go and I'm using canva, I'm sure other platforms are available but if you want to go and design your own book cover, if you're, if you're that way inclined, you can do that.

57:19

You can do your whole marketing campaign on there or you can find someone to do it for.

57:24

You can find you, you can find the editors, you can find the proof, but you can find everyone that the publishers have access to you, whereas maybe you know back to 2009, 2010, when you were about to go out on submission, that the access to that information wasn't there yeah, absolutely, yeah, exactly that, yeah, um.

57:46

So yeah, it's a strange. It's a strange period.

57:49

I think it's a strange time for the publishing and book writing.

57:52

Well, okay, I think they're completely separate.

57:55

It's a strange time for the publishing industry. At the end of the day, what we do is still the same.

58:00

We still sit down with ideas and imagination and characters and stories that we want to tell that that hasn't changed.

58:05

It's, it's how, how you make.

58:10

First of all, make that sustainable and by getting that work into the hands of people who want it yeah, I think it's the wizard of oz effect as well.

58:19

It's like they can't hide behind emerald city, and you think oh my god, it's emerald city, it's like we've gone behind the curtain now and you're like oh, yeah and social media is showing us behind the curtain?

58:33

yeah, sometimes it's, and sometimes it's not very attractive I do not need to be here.

58:43

Let me stay in my little world, delusional world let me be happy with my delusion, yeah let me stay here, right, steve sj watson, let me ask you some questions, okay I'm watching the time and the time is like speeding by.

58:57

Okay, are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?

59:02

I think I'm actually a hybrid, although I think I.

59:04

I think I do tend more towards introvert.

59:08

If you define introverted, I get. I get my energy from being alone.

59:11

So when I'm by myself, quiet reading, writing, working, watching tv, just chilling, that's when my energy levels kind of go up.

59:16

I'm by myself, quiet reading, writing, working, watching tv, just chilling, that's when my energy levels kind of go up.

59:19

I need to do that in order to have the energy to go out and be sociable, whereas I think extroverted people are the other way around.

59:24

They kind of get their energy from being ex, by being out, and I think, if that's your definition, I'm slightly more introverted.

59:31

But I do think I'm both. I need time by myself.

59:35

I, you know I can't too, too too long in company and I'm like I just want to go and chill now for a bit.

59:42

So yeah, I think I'm probably on the side of introversion how do you manage with festival?

59:48

I think I'm a hybrid. Yeah, I like I don't mind, I can get.

59:52

Yeah, I can get along with people, I don't mind, I can get. Yeah, I can get along with people, I don't mind being around people.

59:55

But then I know myself. After one I'm like okay, I'm done now.

1:00:00

I don't think we could do the job that we do if we weren't slightly introverted, at least.

1:00:04

You know how do you manage festivals?

1:00:07

By drinking, as you see.

1:00:12

No, I'm joking, well, I'm sort of joking.

1:00:14

How do I manage, as you see? No, I'm joking, well, I'm sort of joking.

1:00:18

How do I manage? Weirdly, like, I have a weird, I don't know what it is, but I can happily get on a stage.

1:00:23

Is this what you mean? I can happily get on a stage in front of however many people and answer questions and I can happily, you know, do all that stuff.

1:00:37

But like. So I used to go to this gay bingo at the royal voxel tavern and I remember, even though there were only like nine people, on a monday night, monday evening, so there were like nine people in the room, four of which were my friends, and I knew the host as well and he was my friend too.

1:00:50

So even though I knew there were only like five people in there, I didn't know even I was I would dread winning a hat, like a, like a row, getting a row or a full house, because I would have to go on the stage to choose a prize in front of nine people.

1:01:05

That completely terrified me, whereas I can get on live Danish TV, which I did once, and that doesn't bother me.

1:01:14

So it's a strange, I don't know.

1:01:18

I think there's a bit of me that I don't. Maybe there's a bit of me, I think, when I'm at festivals, I think I'm lucky to be here, I'm lucky people are interested in what I've got to say, and it kind of would, and I sort of think it would be churlish of me to now be going.

1:01:31

Oh god, I hate this and I'm shy and please don't make me do this.

1:01:35

It's like I'm grateful that people want me to get on stage and listen to what I've got to say, so that I think that's what it is yeah but I think maybe that's when the extroverted side of me comes out.

1:01:46

I used to feel like I was wearing a mask. It used to be.

1:01:49

I used to like, I mean slightly exaggerating perhaps, but I used to almost literally say to myself okay, you're SJ Watson now.

1:01:56

Before I went to any of those kind of events, it felt like I was wearing a mask, whereas it doesn't as much anymore.

1:02:03

But whose idea was it for your initials reduce your name?

1:02:09

Yeah, just for the initials.

1:02:11

Well, it was. I wanted to in a way anyway, because steve, steve didn't really sound like an author name to me, um, but but my, my agent said you know, I remember her saying have you got a nickname or a middle name, or, um, or what are your initials?

1:02:26

And I and it was her suggestion because, um, because before I go to sleep, is written in the first person from a female point of view, she, she thought it would be a good idea to not not pretend it wasn't written by a man, but sort of just hide the fact it was or raise the possibility that it was ambiguous or whatever.

1:02:44

So it was her suggestion, but it was one that I was.

1:02:47

You know, I probably would have come to the same decision anyway, eventually.

1:02:52

You think it kind of gives you a little bit of protection as well, in a way, and it's just what's and not steve yeah and yeah.

1:03:00

So yeah, exactly, there were. Yeah, it was a way of almost partitioning off that part of my life from the real part of my life, which is, you know, steve bumbling around okay steve okay what challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most?

1:03:21

um, my childhood is that really another hour?

1:03:25

Um, yeah, um, no, I mean, that's kind of implying I had a terrible childhood, which I didn't.

1:03:34

I think, probably my sexuality kind of, and the journey of coming to, first of all, coming to terms with it and then coming out and being able to embrace it, and, and you know, I, we could, we literally could spend an hour talking about this, but we shouldn't, but we shouldn't, but, um, you know, I, I kind of my sexual what's the word?

1:04:00

Like puberty, essentially, my sexual awakening coincided almost exactly with the arrival of aids and hiv.

1:04:02

You know, it's like 1984, 85, uh.

1:04:06

And so, you know, I was growing up thinking I was gay at a time when, well, I was gay, but, you know, trying trying to determine whether I was gay at the time when, well, I was gay, but, you know, trying to determine whether I was gay at the time when all of the press, including, like you know, mainstream we're not talking about obscure press, but mainstream press that were saying that, you know, gay people should be gassed or shot or sent to an island, or it was this is a plague that they brought upon themselves, or it was God's judgment, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and it's difficult to hear that when you're struggling with your own sexuality and not to feel this deep, deep, deep shame.

1:04:39

So I think that's kind of shaped me in a way, because now kind of I'm quite an advocate for sex positivity and for not feeling ashamed, not just for gay people or lgbt people but for everybody you know, just not not being ashamed of sex and sexuality and and um who we are as people, as human beings.

1:05:05

So perhaps that the coming out process is quite a traumatic but ultimately um defining thing how old were you when you came out?

1:05:19

I was a bit like success in publishing.

1:05:22

It was quite a gradual thing but I was quite.

1:05:24

I was relatively late compared to lots of people I know.

1:05:27

I was probably in my mid-20s, um or early 20s maybe yeah but that's one of my regrets in life.

1:05:34

I wish I'd done it sooner, but you know, it happened when it happened and that's the way the things are probably might then time the next question.

1:05:42

If you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?

1:05:47

I think I probably wanted to get over yourself, I don't know.

1:05:51

I think I mean this is all. This is all.

1:05:53

This is a cliche, it's almost not even worth saying, and probably everybody feels this to an extent.

1:05:58

But, like, just realize that you spend so much time worrying about what people think about you and they're not thinking about you at all, not in a negative way, but just they're too busy thinking about what people are thinking about them, you know.

1:06:10

So make some mistakes, you know, fall over a few times and just loosen up.

1:06:15

And that's what I probably say to myself. You know, I think it would be tempting to go back and say, oh, write that book now and don't waste 15 years in the health service.

1:06:24

But I don't know if I'd have written the same book.

1:06:27

If I'd have done that, you know, I might have written a book at 25 and it'd been really rubbish and not found any success or any publisher or any agent, and I might have given up, and now I might be sitting in a completely different job in a completely different life.

1:06:43

So I wouldn't go back and say to myself you know, write, write a book now, because it happened how it happened and you know.

1:06:58

But I would say just loosen up a bit and get over yourself remind me what I say to um when I'm training the trainee, the baby barristers, baby barristers, baby lawyers, and I say to them when you're, when you're appearing in court for the first time, I had to realize this for myself.

1:07:12

I said you're in court and you think everyone's staring at you and you think everyone's waiting for you to make a mistake.

1:07:18

It was only because I was sitting in the back of court one day waiting for my case to be called on.

1:07:24

This was maybe like the first couple of months of qualification and I realized you know the solicitors and the prosecutor defense and prosecutor were up there doing their thing.

1:07:30

You know defendants in the dark, but I realized everyone behind them.

1:07:34

We're all doing our own thing. You know you're making your notes, you're going through papers, you're.

1:07:39

You know they're walking in and, oh sorry, they're walking in and out of the court, but no one's paying any attention to what's going on yeah in front of them and then, once that clicks in your head, it's like oh, not all you know, all eyes aren't on me and you just have to get over that, and then you can do what you need to do.

1:07:55

And she said no one's watching you, you and you didn't.

1:07:57

When you're 25, god, you do think.

1:08:00

When you're 25, though, this is the be and end all of it.

1:08:02

If I don't do this now, it then that's it.

1:08:05

And what am I? Everything seems so much bigger than what it is when you're 20 yeah, I mean I remember choosing.

1:08:10

Well, I'm old enough that I chose o levels, but I remember choosing my options at the age of what?

1:08:15

Would it be 14, 13 or 14, 14 yeah and we were like told it was the most important decision we would ever make.

1:08:23

It was almost like you know, oh, don't choose.

1:08:27

Don't choose geography if you think you might want to do French, because you know, I can't even remember what I did now.

1:08:35

I know what I did. I did hold on.

1:08:37

What did I do? I did history, french double science and commerce, which is basically business studies.

1:08:43

I did that and I remember having I remember my art teacher being really annoyed with me because I didn't pick up.

1:08:49

I was good at art and I was like you should be you should be doing art and graphic design like I don't want to do graphic design like my whole future.

1:08:56

Yeah, I've got to change because I didn't pick art so did you know what you wanted to do?

1:09:01

you know you wanted to go into the law, and or was that?

1:09:04

Yeah, I knew I ever wanted.

1:09:06

No, I knew I wanted to be a lawyer or a journalist.

1:09:09

It was one of those two things. But then, you know, the writing was always there.

1:09:14

Yeah, so I was always. You know, I knew.

1:09:16

I knew I was a good writer, like the English teacher told me.

1:09:20

She told my parents in parents evening that I'm a good writer.

1:09:23

But I said I can't remember who I was talking to the weeks back, but I was saying, even though it might be Ashley Tate, even though I was told I was a good writer and you know the English teacher was wracked and lyrical about my essay I'd written.

1:09:37

She didn't at the end of that say well, you know, nadine, you could be a writer.

1:09:41

This is something that you could pursue creatively, like you could do this.

1:09:46

Didn't say that.

1:09:47

No one ever said that I'll just go and be a journalist or a lawyer and just carry on that way.

1:09:54

Yeah, I think maybe it's because teachers and careers advice and whatever they do, they do know that it's it's not.

1:09:59

It's not necessarily an easy way to make a living and most people most people don't.

1:10:03

So perhaps perhaps they're doing us a favor generally by not encouraging people.

1:10:08

But you know, yeah so finally, yeah, sj watson, where can listeners of the conversation podcast?

1:10:19

It's not that daunting. It's gonna be a tricky question.

1:10:23

I know it's like what is this?

1:10:25

But where can listeners of the conversation find you online?

1:10:29

well, most I do, most of my efforts online now are in Substack, which I'm really enjoying.

1:10:34

Yeah, they are. Yeah, I'm writing a Substack, I do a Substack.

1:10:37

It's sjwatsonsubstackcom and there's lots of stuff on there and from there, of course, you know, I link out to my other channels.

1:10:47

I'm increasingly going off X and X stroke Twitter because it just seems like the hell site that everyone always said it was.

1:10:54

It's getting worse, but I'm sj underscore what's not there and I'm the same on Instagram.

1:10:59

But yeah, substack is my main thing now.

1:11:02

I quite quite enjoy that. It's nice to have a personal connection with readers and, yeah, it takes up quite a lot of my time but it's quite fun.

1:11:11

I keep meaning are you still doing your experiment.

1:11:14

We're all going to say but you're still doing your experiment with writing a book with.

1:11:20

Well, it's kind of been put on hold for a bit, not officially but unofficially in my head.

1:11:25

Input on hold. I will return to it, but it might have a different format and there's always something I said might fail.

1:11:32

I don't think it's failed, but I think I've realized it was.

1:11:35

One thing I've learned from it is that I don't think it's failed, but I think I've realized it was. One thing I've learned from it is that I I don't think I can write two books at once.

1:11:41

Oh, is that what you were doing?

1:11:44

What I've been essentially trying to do, yeah, I think it's something that it needs to be.

1:11:48

If I'm going to do a live not live, but a kind of a essentially a serialized first draft I think it has to be the only thing I'm working on, isn't it hard.

1:11:58

You know when you're doing that I've got, I know we're carrying on there, but you know when you're doing that serialization of a first draft, but you're doing it in conjunction with unless I'm getting it wrong, you're doing it in conjunction with the readers of your subset because they're contributing to it in a way, but then it's doing the opposite of Stephen King.

1:12:15

You're not writing with the door exactly, and I think that's one of the one of the reasons it's it's.

1:12:22

I found it a little bit more tricky than I was expecting because, yeah and maybe, maybe this is a sign of my own naivety or whatever that I should have realized this would be the case.

1:12:30

But yeah, it's exactly that it's throwing the door wide open and saying come in and stick your oar in and tell me what you think as I'm doing it, and that's that's been difficult.

1:12:40

So I think I think I'm rethinking it, for I'm going to.

1:12:46

My plan is to finish this book that I'm working on at the moment, then then rethink the experiment and see I still want to do something which sort of demonstrates to people the process, that kind of lets them into the process a little bit more.

1:13:02

But it's finding the right format or the right means for the right project actually to do that what was the most interesting response you had to your work when you was doing the experiment?

1:13:17

well with the experiment well um, I don't know I shouldn't, I didn't really.

1:13:23

I mean one of the things that's been, it's all.

1:13:27

They've all been quite sensible, really, okay, that's good.

1:13:30

There hasn't really been one that I've gone.

1:13:33

Oh, what on earth are you talking about? Um, you know, mostly people have been quite supportive and quite, um, yeah, just quite helpful, which which kind of almost hasn't helped, if that makes sense.

1:13:46

Um, yeah, it hasn't.

1:13:50

It hasn't quite worked out the way I thought it would you feel like you kind of need the conflict.

1:13:55

Was that what you're expecting?

1:13:57

I don't know what I was expecting. Um, I don't know.

1:14:02

I think I don't know that I don't. I think I don't know that Substack is necessarily a place where people go for serialized fiction like that.

1:14:09

All right. So I think, I think I got to the point that I was putting out new chapters and I wasn't really sure if anyone was even interested.

1:14:18

Maybe this is my imposter syndrome again, maybe this is my own negative self-talk, but it did feel a little bit like, oh, is anyone actually reading this?

1:14:26

Is anyone actually interested? So maybe that's another reason why I think a lot of people were waiting until there was a big, substantial chunk, which I would have done as well, let's face it, because you know, when I'm reading, I don't want to read a chapter and then have to wait for an undetermined, an unknown period of time until the next one appears.

1:14:44

Um, you know, you want the next thing now.

1:14:47

So, yeah, I'm not sure what's, what's the next, the next in that journey?

1:14:52

But there will be something else it it will return either the same story or a different story.

1:15:00

Well, whilst we wait for you to return, I'm just going to say goodbye.

1:15:03

But I will say goodbye, that's so rude.

1:15:06

Yeah, thanks a lot. Off you go. Yeah, thanks a lot.

1:15:12

But there's plenty of other stuff on my site there that you should listen, you should uh, you should subscribe to and read it.

1:15:18

There's lots of stuff out there. I think it's just freed me not doing that to do more interesting stuff it's giving you options.

1:15:25

Yeah, it's nice to have options. Options are good, yeah, yeah, yeah, options are very good.

1:15:29

But I'm gonna say now steve sj watson, thank you so much, thank you really 100 thank yous for being no.

1:15:35

Thank you, watson, thank you so much, thank you really a hundred thank yous for being part of the conversation podcast.

1:15:39

No, thank you for inviting me.

1:15:41

It's been a lovely way to spend an afternoon. Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of the conversation with Nadine Matheson podcast.

1:15:47

I really hope that you enjoyed it. I'll be back next week with a new guest, so make sure that you subscribe and you'll never miss the next episode.

1:15:54

And also don't forget to like, share and leave a review.

1:15:57

It really means a lot and it also helps the podcast.

1:16:00

And you can also support the podcast on patreon, where every new member will receive exclusive merchandise.

1:16:07

Just head down to the show notes and click on the link, and if you'd like to be a guest on a future episode of the conversation, all you have to do is email theconversation at nadimapersoncom.