Episode Transcript
Transcripts are displayed as originally observed. Some content, including advertisements may have changed.
Use Ctrl + F to search
0:00
What if the word homosexual was never meant to be
0:02
in the Bible? That's the question a
0:04
new documentary called 1946 is asking, and
0:07
it's part of a long-running effort to
0:09
misinterpret the Bible to say that it
0:12
never condemns sexual relationships between people of
0:14
the same sex. There have been
0:16
a lot of liberal and self-described gay Christians in the
0:18
past 40 years who have practiced
0:20
this kind of biblical revisionism, and the
0:23
arguments made in this film follow the
0:25
same tired pattern. So let's see
0:27
what they get wrong. The documentary
0:30
follows its director Sharon Rocky-Roggio,
0:32
a self-described gay Christian who
0:34
interviews people like Ed Oxford
0:36
and Kathy Baldick, who defend
0:38
the idea the Bible was
0:40
misunderstood and thus mistranslated on
0:43
homosexuality. The primary story in the
0:45
film deals with the 1946 translation committee of
0:48
the revised standard version of the Bible,
0:50
or RSV, and their decision
0:53
to include the word homosexual in
0:55
1 Corinthians 6, 9-10, which says
0:57
the following. Do you not know
0:59
that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom
1:01
of God? Do not be
1:04
deceived. Neither the immoral, nor idolaters,
1:06
nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves,
1:08
nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor
1:10
revilers, nor robbers will inherit the
1:13
kingdom of God. The documentary makes
1:15
a big deal about how these
1:17
two had to investigate old archives
1:20
and libraries and found a letter
1:22
from a 21-year-old self-described gay seminary
1:24
student David Fierdon who wrote to
1:27
the translation committee for the RSV
1:29
back in the 1950s, objecting
1:32
to their use of the word homosexual
1:35
in their translation. They also make a
1:37
big deal about how the word homosexual
1:39
does not appear in the Bible until
1:41
1946. 1946
1:44
is the first time in
1:46
any language, in any translation, the
1:48
word homosexual ends up in the
1:50
Bible, right? Can you tell us
1:52
exactly how you guys first discovered
1:54
that the word homosexual was
1:56
first written in 1946? And
1:59
my response... to these parts of the film is this.
2:02
Who cares? The word homosexual
2:04
was coined in Germany in 1868
2:08
and it didn't become popular until its
2:10
use in clinical psychology manuals in the
2:12
late 1800s. So it's no surprise that
2:14
the word homosexual would not show up
2:16
in the Bible until the 20th century.
2:19
Prior to that time translations of
2:21
1st Corinthians 6-9 would refer to
2:23
abusers of themselves with mankind or
2:25
liars with men and the same
2:28
point comes across. Illicit
2:30
sexual activity is incompatible
2:32
with God's plan for our lives and
2:35
I simply don't care what some 21
2:37
year old seminary student thought in the
2:39
1950s about how the Bible
2:41
should be translated. The whole thing
2:44
isn't interesting or even relevant to their argument.
2:46
What I do care about is figuring out
2:48
what the Bible means and looking at all
2:51
of the facts in order to do that
2:53
and the film completely face plants on this
2:56
point because it barely gives any time to
2:58
those issues. Let's look at 1st Corinthians 6-9-10.
3:00
Paul is giving
3:03
a vice-list to warn the
3:05
Corinthian Christians about sins that
3:07
will cost them their salvation.
3:09
The word rendered homosexuals in
3:11
the RSV is actually two
3:13
Greek words, Malachoi and Arsenio
3:15
Koitai. I actually agree with
3:17
the film that rendering both of
3:19
these words as homosexuals is not
3:21
an ideal translation. The RSV
3:24
even has to include a footnote explaining
3:26
the translation which says this, homosexuals
3:29
Greek has a feminine
3:31
nor sodomites. The Apostle
3:33
condemns not the inherent tendencies of
3:35
such but the indulgence of them.
3:38
A person won't be barred from eternal
3:41
life just because he has illicit or
3:43
disordered sexual desires beyond his control. In
3:46
modern language the word homosexual
3:48
can refer to one's orientation
3:50
like Christians who experience same-sex
3:53
attractions but practice chastity or
3:56
one's sexual behavior so it's an
3:58
unclear translation. translation
4:00
would be this, nor idolaters nor
4:02
adulterers nor the passive and
4:04
active partners in homosexual acts
4:07
will inherit the kingdom of
4:09
God. However 1946 goes
4:11
way beyond this point in claiming
4:13
that the Bible does not condemn
4:15
what is seen in modern same-sex
4:17
relationships. They say the Bible
4:19
only condemns rape between same-sex partners and
4:22
the filmmakers say that this was the
4:24
only kind of same-sex relationship in the
4:26
ancient world. You show one example in
4:28
the Bible that speaks of same-sex
4:30
relations in a positive way. One
4:34
example. No. No, because there are
4:36
none. Why? Because it was
4:38
written in the context of the
4:40
social sexual... There are plenty of
4:42
examples of marriage relationships in the
4:44
Bible, man and woman. Paul
4:47
gives very clear instructions about
4:49
sexual relationships in the book
4:52
of 1 Corinthians chapter 7. He
4:54
talks about how men and women should
4:56
come together and not deny one another.
4:58
He gives zero instructions of any other
5:00
kind of sexual relationship. I would think
5:03
if I'm writing a book on sexual
5:05
relationships and when you should have them
5:07
and when you shouldn't have them and
5:09
something is common in the church I
5:12
would include that which was common. It
5:14
was not. There was always an age or
5:16
power differential when there was the same sex
5:18
relationship. Emperors were well known for a whole...
5:21
Always an age and power differential.
5:23
But that's not true. Ancient
5:25
Mesopotamian texts like the Almanac
5:27
of Incantations do describe consensual
5:29
same-sex relationships in the ancient
5:31
Bronze Age when Leviticus was
5:33
written. And Plato's Symposium which was
5:35
written in the 4th century BC
5:37
talks about women who quote, do
5:39
not care for men but have
5:41
female attachments and of men who
5:43
exclusively hang about men and embrace
5:45
them. The Roman satirist
5:47
Juvenal writing after the completion of
5:50
the New Testament records his contempt
5:52
for men who married other men
5:54
in Roman wedding ceremonies. They
5:57
say the word malachoi simply means
5:59
soft, lazy, indulgent people, and
6:02
our Senecoy tie means pedophiles or
6:04
boy rapists. In the ancient world
6:06
not every Malacoi was a passive
6:08
recipient of a same-sex act. Some
6:11
Malacoi were men who overindulged in
6:13
food or even sex with women,
6:16
but every passive recipient of same-sex
6:18
acts was a Malacoi or a
6:21
softy because he made himself soft
6:23
and penetrable like a woman. Malacoi
6:26
is clearly being used in a sexual
6:28
context in 1 Corinthians 9 because it's
6:30
paired with our Senecoy tie. They
6:32
also say the Malacoi were boy
6:34
prostitutes who the our Senecoy tie
6:36
had sex with. Roman
6:40
Corinth. There was
6:42
a system called
6:44
pederasty. The idea
6:47
that an older man
6:50
would initiate a younger
6:52
boy into Roman
6:55
society. The older
6:57
man, the arson
7:00
of the arson of koi
7:03
tie was also penetrating the
7:06
younger man or
7:08
the Malacoi. So when
7:11
we think about the Black and
7:13
women age, it's men
7:17
who have power are
7:19
allowed to penetrate any
7:21
other person be it woman, child,
7:24
enslaved person, which
7:27
is very different. It
7:29
does sound like rape.
7:32
There's a huge problem for the revisionists
7:34
here because they don't want
7:37
same-sex sexual acts to be a
7:39
sin worthy of damnation. So they
7:41
say Malacoi and our Senecoy tie
7:43
do not refer to those kinds
7:45
of same-sex acts, but the
7:48
words Malacoi and our Senecoy tie have
7:50
to refer to some damnable
7:52
acts to fit the context. For
7:54
example, if you say Malacoi does
7:56
not refer to simply being the
7:58
passive recipient of sex between men,
8:01
then what does Malachoy refer to? Should
8:04
we believe that Paul thought merely
8:06
being soft or weak or cowardly
8:08
was on par with fornication, adultery,
8:11
or idolatry? Even
8:13
worse, if the Malachoy
8:15
were boy prostitutes and the
8:17
Arsenicoytai were rapists or sex
8:20
traffickers, then St. Paul would be
8:22
saying that rape victims deserve to go to hell.
8:24
To be honest, this isn't just a problem with
8:26
the 1946 film. The
8:29
Catholic New American Bible has a footnote
8:31
on this verse which says the following. The
8:34
Greek word translated as boy prostitutes
8:36
may refer to catamites, i.e.
8:38
boys or young men who were kept
8:40
for purposes of prostitution, a
8:42
practice not uncommon in the Greco-Roman world.
8:45
In Greek mythology, this was the function
8:47
of Ganymede, the cup-bearer of the gods,
8:49
whose Latin name was Catamitis. The
8:52
term translated sodomites refers to adult
8:54
males who indulged in homosexual practices
8:57
with such boys. Remember,
8:59
while the Bible is inerrant, the footnotes
9:01
are not. Boy or child prostitute
9:03
is a euphemism. We should be saying
9:06
boy or child rape victim. Ergo,
9:08
the LGBT revisionists are saying
9:11
that rapists, or the Arsenicoytai,
9:13
and their rape victims, the Malachoy,
9:16
are both going to hell, which
9:18
is a monstrous view. If Paul
9:20
wanted to condemn boy rape, he had
9:22
perfectly good Greek words covering this act
9:25
already. It was called
9:27
pederasty. But instead, Paul used
9:29
these two terms to equally
9:31
indict grown adult men
9:33
who were freely engaging in same-sex
9:35
acts that disordered the gift of
9:37
sexuality God gave us. Paul
9:40
possibly coined the term Arsenicoytai
9:42
because it literally means man
9:44
better. The same Greek words
9:47
are found in the Greek translation of Leviticus
9:49
2013, which says, If
9:51
a man lies with a male as with
9:54
a woman, both of them have committed an
9:56
abomination. Under this view,
9:58
Paul would be condemning moral behavior
10:00
among adults, just like all the
10:03
other sins on his Vice-list in
10:05
1 Corinthians 6,
10:07
not acts of evil committed against children, as
10:09
the revisionists seem to be saying. In his
10:12
commentary in 1 Corinthians, St. John
10:14
Chrysosom says this about Paul's Vice-list,
10:17
"...many have attacked this place as
10:19
extremely severe, since he places
10:21
the drunkard and the reviler with
10:24
the adulterer and the abominable and
10:26
the abuser of himself with mankind."
10:28
People in St. John Chrysosom time
10:30
understood that sexual disorder was
10:32
gravely sinful. They were more
10:35
concerned about the prohibition on partying,
10:37
which Chrysosom says is just as
10:39
sinful because of the way the
10:41
body and mind are abused. On
10:44
a side note, the filmmakers interview
10:46
a rabbi who says that Leviticus
10:48
is just condemning cultic prostitution and
10:50
rape between men, not sex between
10:52
men of equal standing in society.
10:55
In the absence of references
10:57
to lesbianism, they say, show
10:59
that this is about prostitution,
11:02
not homosexuality. One
11:04
way to read this could be
11:06
that the active partner is
11:09
liable for the violence and humiliation
11:12
of rape. But the passive partner
11:14
could very well be
11:16
under a category that appears later in
11:18
the Hebrew Bible of kadesh.
11:22
A kadesh is a male prostitute,
11:24
a ritual pagan male prostitute. What's
11:26
missing from the text is that
11:29
there's no reference to lesbian sex. Homosexuality
11:31
is not the worry of the Hebrew
11:33
Bible because if it was, then sex
11:35
between two women would be problematic. This
11:38
is wrong because there were many ancient
11:40
law codes that punished the active partners
11:42
in homosexual acts because they humiliated the
11:44
passive partners and showed dominance through rape.
11:47
But Leviticus doesn't do that. It
11:50
punishes both partners as being equally
11:52
responsible and Leviticus does
11:54
not use the Hebrew word for
11:56
male prostitutes or kadeshim. section
12:00
about what sexual relations are permissible.
12:02
The fact that lesbianism is missing
12:05
from the prohibitions doesn't mean that
12:07
the ancient authors thought that lesbianism
12:09
was okay. The same chapter
12:11
is missing a prohibition on fathers
12:13
having sex with their daughters, but
12:16
that was never considered okay in
12:18
ancient Israel. The wrongness
12:20
of unnamed crimes in Scripture
12:23
follows from the wrongness of named
12:25
crimes from which we can rationally
12:27
infer. And since the Levitical Code
12:29
was written for a male audience
12:31
and mind, the prohibition against male
12:33
homosexual acts would also apply to
12:36
any female acts. In Romans
12:38
chapter 1, St. Paul condemns male
12:40
homosexual acts and lesbian
12:42
acts, the latter of which in
12:44
the ancient world were always recognized
12:47
to be a relation between social
12:49
equals involving women, not the rape
12:51
of prostitutes because women did not
12:53
purchase female prostitutes, only men did
12:56
that. Paul says, their
12:58
women exchanged natural relations for
13:00
unnatural, and the men
13:02
likewise gave up natural relations with women
13:05
and were consumed with passion for one
13:07
another, men committing shameless
13:09
acts with men and receiving in
13:11
their own persons the due penalty
13:13
for their error. The filmmakers
13:15
say that St. Paul was just
13:17
critiquing Roman excess and that Paul
13:20
said nothing about homosexual acts in
13:22
general. Where Paul got those ideas
13:24
seem to be rooted in his own
13:27
culture, his own understanding, his own
13:29
reading of his sacred text.
13:31
Paul wants to show the excess
13:34
of passions, grieves,
13:36
licentiousness, and the
13:38
background of Roman imperial society
13:41
that allows those things to be an
13:43
excess where those who are powerful men
13:45
just get to do whatever they want to
13:47
do. And I think that's
13:49
where Paul's beginning to argue against that
13:52
idea and not necessarily how we just
13:55
read it as a blanket
13:57
condemnation. By unnatural, Paul did not
13:59
mean these relationships contained excess sexual
14:01
desire or that they were simply
14:04
a contradiction of social standards of
14:06
his time. Paul meant that the
14:08
general idea of same-sex relations violates
14:10
the image of God main known
14:12
in the human body, that we
14:14
were created male and female. Prior
14:17
to Romans 1.26, Paul says that
14:19
creation proves there's one true God,
14:22
and idolaters have no excuse not
14:24
to worship him. The
14:26
reason they have no excuse is
14:28
because God's existence is made known
14:30
in nature. You can look in nature
14:32
and see that God exists. However, Paul
14:35
says their minds were darkened, and they
14:37
exchanged the proper end of their worship,
14:39
God, for an improper end, idols.
14:43
Paul repeats the cycle of
14:45
destruction and exchange when he
14:47
talks about unbelievers' passions being degraded
14:49
and women exchanging the natural
14:51
object of their sexual desires,
14:54
men for women, and men doing the
14:56
same with other men. What all these
14:58
exchanges have in common is not a
15:00
failure to adhere to a social norm.
15:02
It's a failure to adhere to the
15:04
natural order that is obvious from looking
15:06
at creation itself, whether it's the worship
15:08
of the one true God or
15:11
sexual relations with your biologically
15:13
compatible partner. Paul even
15:15
uses the Greek words for male and
15:17
female instead of the Greek words for
15:19
men and women, no doubt a reference
15:21
to the creation account in Genesis 1
15:24
which describes how God made
15:26
humans male and female. In
15:28
fact, Saint John Chrysosom commented
15:30
on Romans 1 and said
15:32
he considered same-sex relations worse
15:35
than fornication. He writes, in
15:37
the case of the one, the intercourse,
15:39
even if lawless, is yet according to
15:42
nature. But this is contrary
15:44
both to law and nature, for
15:46
even if there were no hell and
15:49
no punishment had been threatened, this were
15:51
worse than any punishment. 1946 also repeats
15:53
the same trope that the sin of
15:55
Sodom and Gomorrah was not about homosexual
15:58
acts, but only in hospitality. It was
16:00
a great episode of the Catholic Answers Focus
16:02
podcast that breaks this down in detail with
16:04
Bible scholar Mary Healy. So I'll link to
16:07
that in the description below if you want
16:09
more on that subject. It's
16:11
also unfortunate that the film creates
16:13
two extremes through its director and
16:15
her father, who is a Protestant
16:17
preacher that affirms the Bible's traditional
16:19
teaching on this subject. Rodeo's
16:22
father has a very literal view of
16:24
the Bible, and he thinks sexual orientation
16:27
can be changed, but that isn't the
16:29
only position on the traditional side of this
16:31
issue. I would say
16:33
we don't know how or why
16:35
sexual orientation arises or changes, and
16:38
even those on the other side of this
16:40
issue use terms like gender fluid and sexual
16:42
fluidity. The Catechism says
16:45
of homosexual orientations, its psychological
16:47
genesis remains largely unexplained. Science
16:50
can definitely help us understand why
16:52
people have certain desires or how
16:54
they change, but science can never
16:56
tell us which desires are right
16:58
or wrong because science is not
17:01
in the business of adjudicating moral questions.
17:04
That's what reason and revelation are for. Finally,
17:07
the problem ultimately is not
17:09
homosexuality. The problem is
17:11
that this revisionist view of Scripture will
17:13
not stop there. Brandon Robertson,
17:15
who I've dialogued with before, has
17:18
defended polyamory from a Christian perspective.
17:20
I know that many people, not only in
17:23
our church, but Christian leaders that
17:26
are in open and polyamorous relationships. And
17:29
I've got to tell you that as I've interacted with
17:31
them and as I've got past my own bias and
17:34
listened to their experience and story, I've
17:37
walked away believing that what they have and what they're
17:39
doing will help them. Good.
17:42
Mark Regneris has conducted a survey
17:45
showing that self-identified gay Christians are
17:47
far more likely to support pornography,
17:49
fornication, and occasional adultery. My
17:52
point is that when your exegesis
17:54
of Scripture merely amplifies human feelings,
17:56
you will tear the Bible apart
17:58
to protect those feelings. If
18:00
moral sex only came down to
18:02
consenting adults, then why did John
18:04
the Baptist care who Herod was married to? Why
18:07
did Jesus say remarriage after divorce
18:09
constituted adultery? And why
18:11
did St. Paul say that a man
18:13
in Corinth who committed incest with his
18:16
stepmother was so dangerous to the community
18:18
he had to be handed over to
18:20
the devil, essentially excommunicated, until
18:22
he repented of his sins? If the
18:24
Bible's teaching on sexuality bothers us, what
18:26
about its non-sexual teachings that bother us?
18:29
To claim that only Christ saves us from sin,
18:31
or that not everyone will be saved. If
18:34
your standard for biblical interpretation is
18:36
it can't be right if it makes me
18:38
uncomfortable, then you're not interpreting the Word of
18:41
God. You're attempting to rewrite it. And
18:43
that's not a position I want to be
18:45
in when I stand in judgment before the
18:47
Almighty God who wrote the moral law both
18:49
in Scripture and our hearts so
18:52
that we would find perfect joy in Him.
18:55
Hey guys, thank you so much for watching.
18:57
Finally check out my related content on these
18:59
issues, and please like and subscribe to this
19:01
video to help our channel grow. And finally
19:03
if you want to help us to expand
19:05
and reach more people, definitely support us at
19:07
trenthornpodcast.com.
Podchaser is the ultimate destination for podcast data, search, and discovery. Learn More