0:00

Hey everyone, a few weeks ago I shared

0:02

some clips of me engaging pro-choice advocates in

0:04

dialogue on Catholic Answers Live. I thought it'd

0:06

be fun to share another example of that

0:08

that I had partnered with my friend and

0:11

colleague, Joe Heshmeyer, to show you how to

0:13

dialogue about this difficult issue. And

0:15

also share with you an encounter that I had

0:17

at the University of New Mexico all

0:19

the way back in the mid 2000s. This

0:22

is when I first got my start doing

0:24

pro-life apologetics just straight out of college. So

0:26

you'll get to see me in the thick

0:28

of it on a college campus where I

0:31

started learning in the field how to engage

0:33

people on difficult issues. So here are those

0:35

conversations, check them out. Well I don't, let's

0:38

see. I think changing the law would

0:40

be counterproductive because

0:43

a law doesn't establish that something won't happen.

0:45

And would everybody agree that laws are broken,

0:48

right? So it

0:50

would happen anyway. So you're saying we shouldn't have

0:52

laws because they get broken? No, I'm saying that

0:55

we should do this in the most humane manner

0:57

possible. Is it better to do it

0:59

with a coat hanger or is it better to do it in

1:01

a hospital? Does the child end up the same way though? Excuse

1:05

me? Does the child end up the same

1:07

way regardless of how they're dismembered? Well

1:09

yeah, they do. But I

1:11

mean, if you do it in a hospital,

1:13

doesn't the woman have a chance to survive too? And

1:15

isn't all life equally important? So there's

1:18

no possibility of a third nonviolent option where

1:20

women choose to give birth and they and

1:22

their children are taken care of in a

1:24

civilized society. Well I'm saying if

1:26

they don't want the child, they're not gonna have the

1:28

child. So why should you have to force them to

1:30

have it? Well, I

1:32

don't know if we could phrase it that

1:35

way, but I'm saying is shouldn't we force

1:37

parents, shouldn't we force parents from hurting their

1:39

children, at least outside of the womb? Like

1:41

knocking around, abusing them, giving them drugs? Wait,

1:43

say your point again. Shouldn't we

1:45

force parents to not hurt their

1:47

children through abuse, such as? Well

1:50

that analogy doesn't work because what

1:52

you have is like to completely different situations.

1:55

You have a child that's being beaten, that's

1:57

like a law, like. It's

2:00

not murder. It

2:02

kind of looks like murder to me. All

2:05

right, so I know that there are a lot of women around here.

2:08

So I would like you to pick one of these women,

2:11

look her in the eyes, and I would like you

2:13

to tell her that if she gets pregnant, you

2:16

want her to spend nine months with her belly

2:18

swelling up. You want her to have that

2:20

kid. You want her to take that

2:22

kid. You really want her to drop out of school.

2:25

You very well would like her to ruin

2:27

your life just to satisfy

2:29

your smug sense of morality that

2:32

unborn children are full

2:34

humans and they're not just part of the woman.

2:39

Would you be willing to point to a

2:41

picture of an unborn child on there and

2:43

say that is purely medical waste and has

2:45

no value whatsoever? Yes,

2:48

I would because that's what I believe. Well

2:50

you see, I don't believe. I'm not.

2:53

Women don't have an abortion. No women did

2:56

that because she loved it. No woman did

2:58

that because she thought I want to kill

3:00

my baby. They did that because

3:02

they had no other options. They did it

3:04

because they had to. Have you

3:06

ever been raped or abused or put down?

3:09

In any way? Have

3:11

you ever had no options? Probably

3:13

not, Mr. Spugg. Probably not. Actually

3:15

it's horned but we could keep going. Great,

3:18

wonderful. You're so funny. Oh my

3:20

God, it's hilarious. Abortion. No. Women

3:23

don't do that because they love killing

3:25

babies. Have I said that they

3:27

love killing babies? Yes, you're pretty much putting that

3:29

up there. There's no old women or murderers who

3:31

do that. No women don't have a choice. Not

3:34

old women, women in suburbia, in some

3:36

great place where they can take care of their

3:38

babies. Some women live in

3:40

housing projects. Some women are

3:42

on welfare, in food stands, and have

3:45

Medicaid. Some women can't take care of

3:47

themselves or the children they have now.

3:49

Much less those children. So if they can't take care

3:51

of the children they have now, would you be in favor of

3:53

them euthanizing those children so they don't have to suffer? That's a

3:55

dumb ass to say. I

3:58

do understand the dumb ass. The did you tell

4:01

me? Why Don't. You

4:06

have you been? Lucky

4:10

I don't be being ridiculous at all. The

4:12

solution you're offering for difficult life problems is

4:14

a violent one. and I just offered another

4:16

violent one and he said it was stupid.

4:18

You're saying that abortions to be legal for

4:20

these props? You're not

4:22

for any solutions when you

4:24

know. What?

4:30

Are they alive? And if so, how do you

4:32

know. Olympics

4:34

or light sauce. Or

4:41

like realize. You

4:45

Would you agree that everyone here. Human

4:48

or member of. Know

4:55

that there. Were

4:57

five. Years

5:05

or three months. So

5:13

everyone on your life. Humans.

5:15

Human. Organism.

5:22

Like us. Sweetest

5:25

I would sure. Switch

5:27

have. Quality.

5:33

In this clip my colleagues who has

5:35

mirin i engage a pro choice color

5:37

on the very day Roe versus Wade

5:40

was overturned. kind

5:42

of question because i haven't heard anyone

5:44

can bring up the fact that maybe

5:47

not in all cases this is a

5:49

good thing you know you're kind of

5:51

waving your hand and saying how we

5:54

won look at this it's great for

5:56

everyone and i listen donald trump so

5:58

it's not like God voted for Donald

6:01

Trump, 50% America

6:03

put him in. He happened to

6:05

put three people in the Supreme

6:07

Court that believe what he believes and

6:10

believe what 50% of America believes.

6:13

But that doesn't mean it's everyone's belief. And

6:16

to sit there and say, you know, we've

6:18

won, what a joyous day, somebody

6:21

lost. If someone's

6:23

winning, someone's losing.

6:26

And if you don't acknowledge that, and if you don't

6:28

acknowledge the fact that maybe this

6:30

isn't great for

6:32

everyone, for the 13-year-old girl

6:34

that gets raped by her uncle, or

6:37

for the college girl that gets raped to the

6:39

party and doesn't want that child and doesn't want

6:41

that pain that they're gonna have

6:43

to live with all their life. Either way,

6:47

the funny thing is the men can

6:49

walk away, and most

6:52

do. And I haven't

6:54

heard anyone bring this up. I don't

6:57

know if they're afraid, and I don't

6:59

know if you want to hear it. I'm impressed

7:01

you took my call. So I am. Oh

7:03

yeah, no, no. I actually agree with part

7:05

of what you're saying. Certainly,

7:07

America is deeply divided on abortion. That's actually

7:09

a point they make repeatedly in the Dobbs

7:11

case. It's one of the reasons why you're

7:14

not gonna leave it up to nine justices

7:16

to decide this for everybody. That's not how

7:19

controversial, close social issues

7:21

ought to be kind of adjudicated. But

7:24

second, yeah, I think repeatedly we've said

7:27

pregnancy is often very difficult. I think even

7:29

in like two or the last

7:31

three questions we took, we kind of

7:33

acknowledged this is something that's really painful.

7:36

People have reasons why they're supporting abortion.

7:39

But nevertheless, the fact that a lot of people support

7:41

it doesn't mean that this victory

7:43

is actually a loss. So the USCCB had

7:45

a great one. They said, this is a

7:47

historic day in the life of our country,

7:49

one that serves our thoughts, emotions and prayers

7:52

for nearly 50 years. America has enforced an

7:54

unjust law that has permitted some to decide

7:56

whether others can live or die. This

7:58

policy has resulted in the deaths of tens of

8:00

millions of preborn children, generations that were denied the

8:03

right to even be born. Likewise,

8:05

America was deeply divided on the issue of

8:07

slavery. It doesn't mean we

8:09

have to say, well, you know, maybe abolishing

8:11

slavery was bad for slave owners. Like, no,

8:13

no, like, is the ability of some people

8:16

to decide if others get to live or

8:18

die like this? That was an

8:20

unjust legal regime, and we're glad that legal regime

8:22

is gone. At the same

8:24

time, we're sympathetic to those

8:26

who, you know, pregnancy may be

8:28

really disruptive. To the issue of

8:31

rape, because I hear this brought up a lot, I would

8:33

say this. In this

8:35

country, we don't have the death penalty for rape, and I'm

8:37

glad we don't have the death penalty for rape. As horrible

8:39

as that crime is. It

8:42

would be even more horrible to have the

8:44

death penalty for the child of a rapist.

8:47

One of my friends in grade school

8:50

was the daughter conceived in

8:52

rape. And

8:54

I wouldn't say she should be killed

8:57

because the circumstances of her conception were

8:59

horrible. That's just

9:01

not a just or sane legal regime.

9:04

We can nevertheless prosecute rape. And in

9:06

fact, I would point out here, abortion

9:09

is often a tool of covering up rape.

9:12

The pregnancy of an underage

9:14

girl is proof positive of

9:17

at least statutory rape,

9:19

if not just non-statutory,

9:22

just straight out violent rape. This

9:25

FLDS case with Warren Jeffs, that's a

9:27

really big Netflix documentary right now, the

9:29

way they busted him was

9:31

because there were these underage girls who

9:33

were giving birth. And so it put

9:36

beyond any dispute the fact that these

9:38

women were being sexually abused and raped.

9:41

And so outlawing abortion is

9:43

something that should be good by taking

9:45

away one of the tools by which

9:48

rapists cover up their crimes. to

10:00

chill on unborn child

10:05

are doing the same thing no no they

10:07

didn't know abortion they just put it back

10:09

to legislative bodies but now they're not

10:11

actually yet but i can't harm once again i

10:13

think i have yet mark i just have a question

10:15

for you would you support a

10:17

law banning abortion if

10:20

it had exceptions rate

10:22

and let's say the life and health of

10:24

the mother would you support a lot of

10:26

that outlaws abortion in the other cases uh...

10:32

i i think that and it's hard to leave your

10:34

hand and say that this

10:36

is that these cases and

10:38

i get in let me ask you let

10:40

me rephrase it mark are there any abortions

10:43

throughout nine months of pregnancy that

10:45

you think should be a little i

10:49

think when uh... when the fetus

10:51

is viable to live on its own

10:53

without the host its mother that

10:56

that point you've reached a point where you've

10:58

chosen to carry a life to the point

11:00

where it could survive and

11:03

i think that that to

11:05

say at conception it's

11:07

a life so if someone

11:09

fertilizes an egg and then save that

11:11

egg in uh... uh...

11:14

freezer somewhere so they've been

11:16

frozen that life so should that be illegal will

11:20

be so mark i'm trying to understand your

11:22

position you're saying that when the baby is

11:25

only dependent on one person

11:28

it's okay to kill him or her but

11:31

when the baby is just dependent on some

11:33

person because an infant isn't viable right though

11:35

die if you leave them alone if

11:38

they're dependent on some person it's

11:40

wrong to kill them but if they're

11:43

only dependent on one person it's okay

11:45

to kill them is that your position

11:49

c in here's how you sit there and say

11:51

it you throw it and say killed them well

11:54

what would you be taking them from a

11:56

living state to a non-living and through

11:59

an intentional action What term would you

12:01

use for that? If

12:03

the umbilical cord at 12 weeks

12:06

broke, got pinched, something

12:08

medically occurred, would

12:11

that fetus at 11 weeks

12:13

continue to survive? No.

12:16

What would happen to the fetus? It

12:20

would die. So if

12:22

you went in there, so you're

12:24

right, if the cord detached naturally,

12:26

hold on Mark, if the cord detached

12:29

naturally, this living human

12:31

being would die. So

12:33

if you went in there with tools and

12:36

dismembered that fetus, what

12:38

do we call it when you actively

12:40

do something that takes a living thing

12:43

and makes it nonliving? Is that not

12:45

the definition of the word kill? Sure.

12:50

Let's go with that. Okay,

12:52

so your argument was it

12:54

should be legal to kill an

12:57

unborn human being simply

12:59

because they're very dependent on

13:01

one person, but

13:03

it's not okay to kill them when

13:05

they're an infant, when they're very

13:08

dependent on many people. Why does

13:10

the fact that they're very dependent on

13:12

their moms mean it's okay to kill

13:14

that child? Why does the fact that

13:16

one person has power over a dependent

13:18

human, why does that give them the

13:20

right to kill that human? The

13:25

way you're putting it is

13:27

you are saying this is what everyone

13:30

shall do, and you

13:32

have become the judge. And

13:35

at what point did

13:38

Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior say, hey,

13:41

guess what, you're the judge? Well,

13:44

Mark, you didn't answer my question. My point

13:46

is I'm trying to understand your position. You're

13:48

saying- I think that they should have a

13:50

choice. I think that the women that are

13:53

out there should have a choice to be

13:55

for a born child that was in- yes,

13:57

I do. I 100% do. He

14:01

can cause they're bear choice not

14:03

be your suitcase not my choice

14:05

and that Donald Trump and three

14:07

judge's choice for Pfizer their choice

14:09

because there's because they're eager. Because.

14:12

They're bigger and stronger and the child

14:14

can fight back and was totally dependent

14:16

on them. It to be their choice

14:18

because of that's. It should

14:21

be their choice because it is that

14:23

their bodies but it's news media services

14:25

cannot survive on. Got a bunch of

14:27

men mobile all that. so he got

14:29

a bunch of men that are out

14:32

there sitting there saying after I get

14:34

her pregnant technically not must necessarily my

14:36

responsibility. Who? their Aunt Margaret?

14:38

my pillow marked to use? Yeah, they are

14:40

such to hold on. You're not Christian men

14:42

that are so it's an art. And sewage

14:44

men be compelled to pay child support? Perfect.

14:47

Mark. Should a man to compel

14:49

had a child support for a child,

14:52

that is that he father's. Just.

14:55

A hundred frickin' percent against is why.

14:58

Why? Should be more than it should

15:00

be more than just paying child support. Why

15:02

Me: Why Fair trial? Why Why Why would

15:04

as he says he doesn't it cause future

15:06

he doesn't want to. All

15:10

these probably not a christian man right

15:13

now. So they summer and winter

15:15

pregnant or deny them together. Because. I

15:17

think we've we've I think this to be edited for

15:19

people listening. You. Have a very

15:21

strong moral intuition. If a man causes

15:23

a child the come into existence, he

15:25

should support the child. He is created

15:28

and so we compel him to do

15:30

something like pay child support And yet

15:32

you don't have the same standard for

15:34

the mother of those. So you want

15:36

the father to be held responsible saying

15:38

yes to care for this child. But

15:41

the mother should be allowed to kill

15:43

the child because it his her choice

15:45

and she's bigger and the child's very

15:47

dependent on her. And I think that

15:49

this is. Very instructive for people to

15:52

see the pro life position which is

15:54

that all human beings to be treated

15:56

with equal dignity and respect and cared

15:58

for and approach. This position would

16:01

you basically says might makes right.

16:03

And. I think that the dogs decision

16:05

today has shown that one of

16:08

those positions. Promote. A civilized

16:10

society and the other promotes

16:12

of barbarity. And so I

16:14

think that more. Democratic.

16:17

Processes was we debate this issue. I think

16:19

this will become more clear as we continue

16:21

the conversation about abortion and I'm glad that

16:23

dogs are says Jackson allows us to do

16:25

that for thanks for telling us what a

16:27

great I called and on Joe has Myra

16:30

Train Horn! Thank you both A very very

16:32

much thanks for watching today's episode. If you

16:34

want more gray content, be sure to check

16:36

out these other great episodes and don't forget

16:38

to like and subscribe to help our channel

16:40

grow. Final, if you want to help us

16:42

create more content like this, please support us

16:44

A Train Horn Podcast! Dot Com.