0:01

Hey , there it's Margie Bryce , your

0:03

host of the Crabby Pastor podcast

0:05

, where we talk about all things sustainability

0:09

, whether it's sustainability

0:11

in ministry , in your personal

0:13

life and we acknowledge

0:15

that the church is in a transitional

0:18

time , so we hit topics there

0:20

too that are going to stretch your mind

0:22

and the way you

0:24

lead , especially

0:26

how you lead yourself , so

0:29

that you don't become the crabby

0:31

pastor . So

0:34

how do the pieces of your life

0:36

fit together ? Do they fit

0:38

together well and things

0:40

are humming along just fine , or

0:43

are there some pieces that

0:45

are tight or absent or

0:48

just not fitting the

0:50

bill ? This is your invitation

0:52

to join me in my glass

0:54

workshop for a video series , where

0:57

I am going to do

0:59

a stained glass project while I

1:01

talk to you about sustainability

1:04

and building sustainability into

1:06

your heart and into your life

1:08

. So I am going to be doing

1:11

my art , which is a form

1:13

of self-care , and I'm going to invite you

1:15

into that space with

1:17

me and I'm

1:20

going to chat . I'm going to chat about

1:22

self-care and I'm going to show you how I

1:24

create , and there's

1:26

a nifty , nifty analogy

1:29

Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor

1:32

for what I want to talk

1:34

about , so I'd love for you

1:36

to join me to do that , to opt

1:38

in , I'll need you to email

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me at crabbypastor at

1:43

gmail dot com . That's crabbypastor

1:45

at gmail dot com

1:48

. So you won't want to miss this

1:50

. You definitely

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won't want to miss this . So

1:55

make a plan to join me in

1:58

the glass workshop . Hey

2:03

there , Margie Bryce , host

2:05

of the Crabby Pastor podcast

2:08

, and we are here today . I

2:10

am speaking with Kristen Humiston

2:12

and we are going

2:14

to talk trauma and give you some

2:17

basic insights , some

2:22

basic ideas of what trauma is , what trauma does . So I am really looking forward

2:24

to this episode and actually we're going to do a few

2:27

episodes , a bit of a mini series

2:29

here , and help you

2:32

to understand what

2:34

is wrong with everybody . Sort

2:37

of okay , because you

2:39

know , you say , well , there's a few people who are traumatized

2:42

and then there's some who aren't . But

2:44

let me tell you , we all just came out of

2:46

COVID , so that was like a mass

2:48

trauma for everybody

2:51

, and everybody always handles trauma differently

2:53

. So there's that . Anyway

2:55

, Kristen , how about

2:58

you tell us what

3:00

drew you into this topic

3:02

?

3:03

Yeah , thanks for having me on today . I

3:06

am a certified coach and my

3:08

passion point areas have been

3:10

faith , mental health and

3:12

ministry leadership . And I come at that

3:14

because I grew up as a pastor's kid . I

3:17

became a pastor's wife before I was even

3:19

out of college and then

3:21

we were in ministry almost 20 years

3:23

when we experienced what's called a forced

3:25

termination , totally

3:27

blindsided us , unexpected

3:30

, overnight . You know , just called in one Saturday

3:33

morning and said you no longer work here and

3:35

there were no accusations , there were no reasons

3:37

given . Was there any warning ? or

3:39

anything . No warning

3:41

, I mean some things . You know , there's always like shifty

3:44

things and you're like huh , what's going

3:46

on ? Um , so

3:48

, but nothing that we could put our finger on

3:50

. No , no , nothing direct at

3:54

all . And there had been a review

3:56

, had been done recently , and everything

3:59

was great on the review . You know , pats on the

4:01

back on Sunday mornings you're doing a great job , pastor

4:03

, and so yeah

4:05

it . You know today's

4:08

conversation .

4:09

You know , I mean , I think that's a trauma right there

4:11

that's making my head explode as

4:13

you say this , because I'm thinking oh

4:16

my goodness , can we not do better than

4:18

that ?

4:18

Yeah , yeah , well , and that's you know

4:20

, that's . That's the

4:22

one of the greatest reasons that I have been drawn

4:25

into this work . I have the background

4:27

of growing up as a pastor's

4:29

kid , right , and I that lens

4:31

that , until that moment in time

4:34

, all I had ever lived

4:36

I was almost 40 at the time and all I had ever

4:38

lived was in ministry life

4:40

, where church defines

4:43

your identity and your existence . So

4:45

you go to church on Sunday mornings , you do

4:47

the midweek things , you go

4:49

back on Sunday mornings , your

4:51

social circles are there . How

4:54

you have been shaped and developed with your gifts

4:56

and things that you enjoy is

4:59

so integral to church life

5:01

. For me it was music things

5:03

, and so , yeah

5:05

, all of my relationships and who I was

5:07

was so woven with

5:09

church life that

5:12

I didn't know . I

5:14

didn't know who I was like , what . What do I

5:16

do now and who am I now

5:18

, without , without

5:21

being a pastor's wife , without

5:24

going to church on Sundays

5:26

, right , there's so much of

5:28

our calendar and our scheduling

5:30

, the way we do or don't do vacations

5:33

that is embedded when

5:35

you live ministry , and

5:38

so to be suddenly out of that

5:40

say nothing of

5:42

like . Now , what do I do with God ? Because

5:44

I've given my whole life to

5:47

pursuing serving his

5:49

people , and I've just been yanked

5:51

out and I'm not . What I

5:53

learned very quickly is I'm not alone in that

5:55

experience .

5:56

Right and a lot of that .

5:57

you know yeah it's

6:00

about 40% , a

6:02

little bit higher , but across denominations

6:04

. 40% of pastors at

6:06

least will experience one time forced termination

6:09

or unjust termination Sometimes it's called

6:11

, and many experience more

6:13

than one . So

6:16

I don't have stats on what that looks like , but that's

6:19

what's brought me into the

6:21

topic of trauma was

6:23

my own healing journey from that and

6:26

then becoming really passionate , and I can see

6:28

the threads beginning early as five years

6:30

old . There was a moment in

6:32

my healing journey where I just it

6:35

was one of those . I felt like God was right

6:37

in front of me and I just heard him say you

6:39

are a healer , and

6:41

so I thought I don't know what that means . But

6:44

okay , I'm listening

6:46

. Yeah .

6:48

And I think many well of

6:51

the 40% that you have . You know sometimes

6:53

you are working within the context

6:56

of a church environment

6:59

, but I think what really needs to

7:01

be relearned and recaptured today

7:03

are the entrepreneurial

7:05

ministry leaders

7:07

, who may or

7:09

may not be pastoring , but they might

7:11

be out and about in the marketplace and

7:14

when you think about this you

7:16

know it's pretty exciting stuff

7:18

. It's not that you don't want to

7:21

come under submission to somebody else

7:23

. It's not that you don't want to come under submission to somebody else , it's not that you don't want

7:25

to whatever , but sometimes God

7:27

has some different ideas for what

7:29

you're going to do and what you're going

7:31

to be about and where you're going to serve and

7:34

how you're going to serve . And

7:36

that's part of why I

7:38

advocate for a healthy self-care , so

7:41

that you slow down long enough that you can hear

7:43

and step into what

7:46

God has for you . I'm

7:48

thinking this is going to be the wave

7:50

for many , as we go along

7:53

here and we can sit back and cry

7:55

all we want and it's sad . It's sad

7:58

about you know the church and the challenges

8:00

right now . If you are

8:02

serving in pastoral ministries , it

8:04

is challenging , but at the same

8:06

time you know what

8:09

is God doing ? Because God's

8:11

not sleeping . To the best of my

8:13

knowledge , god is not sleeping

8:15

, and I think those who follow

8:18

need to listen closely . Well

8:20

, let's go back to trauma

8:22

. You know , as you outlined

8:24

your own personal trauma , and you know

8:26

that's usually what drives us into

8:29

doing what we do . I'm doing

8:31

banging the drum about self-care because

8:34

what I forgot to do

8:36

, that and it just is not

8:38

a fun thing . And so talk

8:41

to us then about how you would

8:43

define trauma

8:46

.

8:47

Yeah , trauma is a

8:50

common buzzword out there

8:52

right now . It's being thrown around Every

8:54

place wants to become trauma informed , which

8:57

is great . It's a piece of the puzzle , and

8:59

then we need to become trauma responsive

9:01

, and so it's really important to understand

9:04

what this is . Lots of different

9:06

definitions . This is kind of

9:08

a conglomeration of various places

9:10

. My personal definition it is the

9:12

lingering impact in the body

9:14

, mind and spirit from

9:17

any real or perceived danger

9:20

, like intense , unexpected

9:22

event or ongoing

9:24

situation or relationship that

9:27

overwhelms an individual's

9:29

nervous system so it

9:32

pushes them outside of their ability to cope

9:34

Right . And there's some characteristic

9:36

features which are fear , helplessness

9:39

, lack of voice or

9:42

choice and lack of safety

9:44

and security . One of the

9:47

trauma people out there

9:49

, Gabor Mate . He also says

9:51

trauma is not only what happens to us

9:53

, but what doesn't happen

9:55

to us and should .

9:57

Okay , so we see this lingering

9:59

effect . I mean , how do you know ? So we see this lingering

10:01

effect . I mean , how

10:03

do you know ? Ooh , I've been traumatized

10:05

Because

10:09

there's stuff happens down here in life . You know , how do you distinguish between ? You

10:12

know just the normal bundlings

10:14

of people and

10:16

trauma ? Yeah , sure .

10:18

Well , I'm under the belief

10:20

that we all

10:22

have been traumatized in some place

10:25

, way , shape or form . What Gabor

10:27

Monte is referring to , there is

10:29

kind of this piece of neglect , and it can be

10:31

emotional neglect , so it can be

10:33

from a child who didn't

10:35

have parents that for whatever reason

10:37

, it's not always intended , but

10:40

just lacked connection and

10:43

so that impacts their relationships for

10:45

the rest of their life . But

10:47

we often see it If we think

10:49

about like the traumatized person you're

10:52

going to see hypervigilance , always

10:54

thinking that the shoe is going to drop , like

10:56

what's next , a need

10:58

to , it's

11:01

kind of like perceive and

11:03

put out all these feelers to protect

11:05

. So it's high anxiety

11:07

, maybe avoidance . So

11:09

avoiding places , people , conversations

11:12

it will look like some isolation

11:15

and withdrawal . Nightmares

11:17

, flashbacks A lot of

11:19

those are typical symptoms . It

11:21

can be physical symptoms

11:24

. It's going to manifest if it's not healed

11:26

. It's going to manifest in GI

11:28

issues , headaches . Our

11:31

bodies really do keep the

11:33

score and so there's

11:36

there's lots of ways and lots of scientific

11:38

research out there that we have today that

11:40

demonstrate how trauma impacts the body

11:43

. So a lot of times we're

11:45

experiencing those impacts , but

11:48

we don't necessarily connect it to

11:51

something that may be overwhelmed

11:54

us at some point in life .

11:57

And what kind of what I've come to

11:59

understand is that and

12:02

you can correct me , is

12:06

that and you can correct me ? You know feel free or add in , subtract or whatever that

12:08

when you encounter a trauma , it

12:10

messes with the

12:13

storage system in your brain

12:15

and

12:29

your body doesn't store it correctly . And if you pursue some avenues of healing , you have

12:31

the opportunity to help the storage function better so that then at the end of the day

12:33

, you're less , as they say , triggered by

12:36

something . You know , something sets you off and

12:38

you don't know why . If you can

12:40

get to the place where healing

12:42

occurs sufficiently so that you're a little less reactive , or maybe you come to the place where

12:44

healing occurs sufficiently so that you're a little less reactive

12:47

, or maybe you come to a place where you're

12:49

a little more self-aware about

12:51

of that .

12:56

Yeah , absolutely so . I use

12:58

brain spotting in my coaching and

13:00

I'm in grad school , finishing up

13:02

to become a trauma therapist . So a

13:05

simplified version is

13:07

to think about an event happening

13:09

and our brain is made

13:12

. Our brain and body is made so that we should be

13:14

able to process that we

13:16

should . You know we don't have

13:18

a lot of . There is trauma

13:21

in the in history , but part of what makes trauma

13:23

difficult now is we don't have a lot

13:25

of movement going on . We don't have a lot of

13:27

being able to physically

13:29

move through and and

13:34

to really address . So , like when we

13:36

study people who have experienced

13:38

, let's say , an entrapment

13:40

where they are physically trapped , those

13:43

that can do something

13:45

to fix their situation

13:47

usually are less

13:49

traumatized six months down

13:52

the road , as opposed to those

13:54

who maybe have to stand by and watch . And there's

13:56

I'm thinking of a particular incident

13:58

which I really don't want to state just because of people

14:01

who are listening . I don't want to trigger , but if

14:03

you've had to like , let's say , dig your way out

14:06

of being trapped , you have

14:08

had a part of the solution

14:10

of being able to do something , and

14:13

so that in and of itself helps

14:15

to process the trauma Because

14:18

you had some power . You had some choice

14:21

. So if we go back to that definition of

14:23

what is traumatic , it's

14:25

when we are helpless , when we don't

14:27

have any choice . And

14:29

so sometimes those like

14:32

family members that may be

14:34

watching someone experience trauma and

14:36

they absolutely cannot do anything , they

14:38

become traumatized because , again , they

14:41

are helpless , they can't

14:43

move through it , they can't offer a solution

14:45

. And we see this . You made a really

14:47

key point in healing from trauma

14:49

, which is slowing down long

14:53

enough to even hear

14:55

and feel . And most

14:57

of us in our Western

14:59

modern world , we are just go , go

15:01

, go , go , go , go go . Everything's flying at

15:03

us and our brains don't even have time to

15:06

they just they don't have any time

15:08

to process anything , we just blow

15:10

through is what we do and here in

15:12

the United States and I know like

15:14

for me .

15:14

I think I've shared this on the

15:16

podcast before , I think . Anyway

15:20

, I was maybe four

15:22

and I was hospitalized and

15:25

I was sick and

15:28

I think they had given me something

15:30

to a sedative

15:33

sort of and my parents

15:35

were standing over me talking and I

15:37

could hear them and

15:39

they were debating about my younger sisters

15:42

who were at home and what

15:44

they should do and at the end of the day they said

15:46

, well , she's sleeping , we should just leave . But

15:48

I was four , I was scared and

15:53

I couldn't say anything

15:55

because of whatever it was that they

15:57

had given me prevented me from

15:59

saying . I couldn't say anything

16:02

but inside in my little head

16:04

I was hollering , but I couldn't

16:06

holler out loud . So you

16:09

know , you take that that would be in

16:12

the category of abandonment and

16:14

I didn't ever think it was

16:16

an issue because , you know , nobody did anything

16:18

intentional , malicious or

16:22

whatever . And I think quite a few

16:24

years ago I recounted that to somebody who had

16:26

some training and they said abandonment . And I was

16:28

like what ? I had no

16:30

idea that something like that

16:32

could resonate through

16:35

your life . And here I am , you know

16:37

years old , because you know it's a state secret

16:39

how old I am , you know I'd have to kill you . But

16:42

you know , and I went through a

16:45

healing process In

16:47

that case EMDR and I can't

16:50

tell you what that stands for

16:52

. Probably you can , but I went through

16:54

that process and I was

16:56

surprised at the level of

16:59

emotion that unpacked

17:01

itself and came out , because

17:04

you know you're like so that

17:06

would be a case where you couldn't do anything

17:08

to fix your own .

17:10

You couldn't do anything and , like you said , you couldn't

17:12

use your voice so you couldn't communicate

17:15

anything to

17:17

let your parents know , hey , I'm scared

17:19

, like stay here with me , right ? You couldn't

17:21

ask and make your request and so they

17:23

just assumed you were sleeping and you were fine . There's

17:26

no ill intent there and

17:28

oftentimes that's

17:30

that's what we think of is when someone's

17:32

traumatized , that there has to have had been something

17:35

malicious or ill intent done and

17:37

that's just not the case . A lot of times

17:39

there is trauma that's happening completely

17:42

not intended

17:44

at all . And again , like we

17:46

just think of basic phone use right now , that

17:48

disconnection between parents and children

17:50

, because parents are just sitting on their floor , sorry

17:53

, on their phones , never looking at

17:55

their children in the eyes . And we need

17:57

that eye gaze with one another

17:59

. That's one of the God

18:01

created things that to hold the baby

18:04

and gaze in their eyes . This

18:06

is essential for us building

18:08

foundational blocks of trust

18:11

, of connection and

18:14

yeah , and so trauma . It impacts

18:16

the way that we view ourselves , the

18:18

way that we view the world , if it's

18:20

a good world or a bad world , the

18:22

way we view others and the way we

18:25

view god , and there's lots

18:27

of different ways that that can manifest

18:30

itself . We've talked about some

18:32

that are kind of more of the ptsd

18:35

type symptoms , right , but we see

18:37

these symptoms reverberate in

18:39

relationships . Again

18:42

, the way that we connect , even the way

18:44

that we connect to God and our

18:46

relationship with God , is impacted

18:48

by those experiences .

18:49

So sure and that you know

18:51

. That is , you know , like I wonder

18:53

why I think this way

18:55

. You know I , and I think a lot

18:57

of this is well . First , before I

19:00

lose this thought , you know , two people can

19:02

have encountered this very same trauma

19:04

and deal with it very

19:06

differently . I was always

19:09

said I was oversensitive

19:11

anyway . So I

19:13

don't know , maybe I am compared to I

19:15

don't know what , but but anyhow , you

19:17

know , people can go through a similar

19:19

experience in one person , it just doesn't

19:22

reverberate in their lives

19:24

the way it does with some others , and it's

19:26

not . That's not a good or a bad , it just

19:28

, it just is the

19:30

way it is .

19:32

Yeah , yeah , and we know that that is related

19:34

to history of trauma . It's

19:37

related to attachments . So how

19:39

many secure attachment relationships

19:41

that they have with , initially

19:44

a loving caregiver and

19:46

then loving relationships around

19:48

them , the way that we have either

19:51

built or not built on

19:53

a resiliency factor . So

19:56

, just like you're saying , yeah , we can experience . I have

19:58

a good friend of mine . We

20:00

both were in the same car accident when

20:02

we were 17 , a pretty horrendous

20:05

accident and she walked

20:07

away completely a different

20:09

experience of that than I did and

20:12

I struggled to drive

20:14

, I struggled with a lot of things coming

20:17

off of that and she just , you

20:19

know , was kind of bounced back pretty easily

20:21

. And when I look and compare what

20:24

I would say our trauma histories are , they're

20:26

vastly different , vastly different

20:28

. And so , and we just know that that's

20:30

across the board what we see

20:32

in trauma . So , and

20:35

you related to like EMDR brain

20:37

spotting trauma

20:40

. So , and you related to like EMDR brain spotting , what they do is they go into that traumatic memory

20:42

. They just really allow you don't have to restate

20:45

the memory because that can re traumatize

20:47

someone , but opens up the

20:49

processing and

20:51

allows that instead of , um , if we think of , like

20:53

, maybe two different

20:55

, two different circles

20:57

In one circle is like how

21:00

your brain is when the traumatic event

21:02

or ongoing again , like in

21:04

cases of abuse , abusive

21:06

relationships . This is like an ongoing traumatization

21:09

and what happens is that

21:11

trauma kind of bounces around in your brain

21:14

. It's not able to correctly

21:16

process because your system is overwhelmed

21:18

. And EMDR brain spotting

21:20

opens up the ability to process

21:23

that and then file it away

21:25

in the correct place

21:27

which , when we think back to

21:29

, I'm thinking you know , 200 , 300 , 400

21:31

years ago that's what was happening

21:33

, because people were using their bodies , they

21:35

were coming up with their own solutions , they

21:38

were going through traumatic things but they

21:40

were able to do something about it . Their processing

21:43

was more accessible and then

21:45

it was able to be stored without the emotional

21:48

, intense emotional

21:50

responses happening . So that's

21:52

what EMDR enables you to

21:54

do .

21:55

Yeah , Cause I think back . I think back

21:57

in the church scenario and I'm

21:59

sure I've shared this before here somewhere

22:02

along the line , but about

22:04

a gentleman , a senior citizen

22:07

. That's the one thing that used to get to me

22:09

, you know , when I was pastoring , is if it was an older

22:11

gentleman and he cried , that just

22:13

really would get to me . But there

22:16

would be this one gentleman would

22:18

always go to the altar for

22:20

any thing and he would

22:23

just be up there crying and he

22:25

would say I can't get the victory , I can't get

22:27

the victory , no , okay . Well , I was

22:29

mid-20s when

22:31

I came to Christ , so I kind of had to have somebody

22:33

translate what that meant

22:35

Exactly . And I

22:37

spoke to somebody and said what , what does

22:40

he mean ? What is going on there ? And

22:42

he was on the beaches of Normandy

22:44

as a team and and

22:47

he just , you know , I feel so bad . It's like , you

22:49

know , as , because we're talking

22:51

about really , basically , what is wrong

22:53

. Congregation , or people that

22:55

you know , love , care

23:11

about , are struggling

23:14

with something

23:16

that they don't even know how to

23:18

deal with . You

23:21

know , I should be able to pray through it . Just

23:23

pray , give it to Jesus , and it's

23:25

good , and I don't mean

23:27

to say that that's not helpful

23:30

, healthy or a good idea . I'm

23:32

not saying that that's not

23:34

the case , but when there are ongoing

23:37

instances that just seem not

23:39

to be able to be resolved , it's

23:41

okay to

23:44

then look at . You know

23:46

some advances that we have today in neuroscience

23:48

. It's pretty amazing how you

23:50

know your brain makes ruts because you

23:52

keep going up and down the same path . But

23:55

maybe you need to go on a different direction

23:58

, a different path , and you actually can reroute

24:00

your brain by doing some things differently

24:02

. And it's pretty , pretty fascinating

24:05

stuff actually . And I think EMDR

24:07

is brain spotting . I'm not sure if they're

24:09

exactly the same , but these

24:11

are potential

24:14

. I mean , it's almost like an antibiotic

24:16

really that comes in

24:18

and disrupts . You know an antibiotic

24:20

either works . You know you're either going to starve

24:23

the little microbe or the

24:25

little thing making you sick , or you stop it

24:27

from being able to reproduce

24:29

. That's how antibiotics work . So this is almost

24:31

like an antibiotic for your

24:34

neurology , for your brain .

24:37

Yeah , and there are several

24:40

ways of healing . And

24:42

I even think about in scripture what

24:45

did David do ? Other

24:47

people as well use lament

24:49

Like lament is a gift

24:52

and that's the expressing

24:54

. It's actually complaint to god

24:56

. How long

24:58

? How long are you

25:00

gonna hide your face from me ? Right

25:02

, the complaint is actually if I put

25:05

it into a sentence , I

25:07

feel like you're hiding you

25:10

. You know you've left . That's the complaint

25:12

. And then to express the emotions

25:15

my eyes waste away with grief

25:17

. Psalm 6 , 6 says this language

25:20

that he is able to use to

25:22

express the emotion so

25:24

important . Where in

25:26

our Western culture we suppress

25:29

emotion and we've been told it's not

25:31

right , it's not good . You

25:33

know , david expresses anger

25:36

in the Psalms and we've been told anger

25:38

is off limits , that we can't be angry

25:40

as Christians . That's just false . We

25:42

see it all throughout scripture where

25:44

anger is a right response

25:47

to an in

25:49

or unjust action . We

25:56

should be angry about some things . Then what do we do with that anger ? Right , but we need

25:58

to express it . So we have to . We

26:00

have to heal , sorry , we have to feel to

26:02

heal . Somatic work

26:04

, movement with the body

26:06

is a great way to heal . And then

26:09

, like we were talking about before , we

26:11

hopped on and started recording

26:13

. Today , healing

26:15

begins with this consistent

26:18

, repeated , patterned

26:20

connection . It

26:23

has to be consistent , repeated pattern

26:25

. I should say safe connection

26:28

. So say more about that .

26:31

Yeah .

26:32

So this is part

26:34

of in therapy we talk about this

26:36

being part of the therapeutic

26:39

alliance , a reason why we have

26:41

people come in , you know , every

26:43

week or every other week for one hour

26:45

. What's happening ? Consistent

26:47

, repeated , patterned

26:49

safe connection . They're

26:53

relearning how to build

26:55

trust . This is the basic blocks . From when you're

26:57

a baby , you should be having consistent

27:00

, repeated , patterned safe

27:02

connection , and so when that's

27:04

disrupted , it

27:06

makes the nervous system go wait , can

27:08

I trust you ? What's going on on here ? Are

27:11

my needs going to be met ? And it

27:13

brings this sense of insecurity

27:15

to the nervous system . So

27:18

to heal that we

27:20

need we need that consistent , repeated

27:23

, pattern safe connection . And

27:25

when we think about that , like sometimes

27:28

church leaders or faith leaders will

27:30

think , well , well , you just need to be in church every Sunday

27:32

, that's good , it is good . Okay

27:34

, what ? What safe connection

27:37

is happening there ? Like you've

27:39

got the consistent , repeated and maybe pattern

27:41

, but is there a safe connection happening

27:43

? When they're coming there , I'll

27:46

often say , like for myself , for

27:49

me moving through healing , and what

27:51

I recommend to my clients is

27:54

to build something in . That

27:56

has to be consistent , so

27:58

maybe it's . It doesn't need to cost money

28:00

, so maybe it's

28:02

. You know , you have one friend

28:05

, one friend that

28:07

you could call and just say , hey

28:09

, can we meet every

28:11

Tuesday , 8 , 8 AM

28:13

, or you know whatever works for your

28:15

schedule . Maybe it's once

28:18

a month and you decide I can do something consistent

28:20

once a month and it's repeated

28:23

and it's patterned and it's a safe connection

28:25

so we can actually put this in

28:27

our own lives to

28:29

begin to heal , especially

28:31

trust , issues . Right

28:33

, how do I learn to trust again ? It's one of the most

28:36

common questions I get , whether

28:38

it's been church trauma or

28:40

it's abusive relationship . How

28:42

do I learn how to trust again ? You need

28:44

that consistent , repeated , patterned

28:46

, safe connection and I am

28:48

very aware that I've said it a lot of times

28:51

.

28:51

Oh , that's fine , no , that's fine

28:53

.

28:54

The one thing to take away from this today

28:56

. That's what heals

28:58

consistent , repeated , patterned

29:00

, safe connection .

29:01

Yes , and that that is . You

29:03

know , one avenue for and

29:06

I advocate for this as a

29:08

part of your self-care is to

29:10

don't journey alone . Everyone

29:13

needs a safe place where they can

29:15

be totally honest , and

29:17

that is one facet , whether you work

29:19

with a spiritual director , you have a

29:21

friend or you have a coach or you have something

29:24

for ministry leaders , for sure

29:26

. But then also ask ministry leaders and

29:28

we need to think through how

29:31

healing of an environment

29:33

we are creating in our congregations

29:36

and whether this pattern is

29:38

being nurtured and

29:41

upheld within those

29:43

. So we are going to stop

29:45

here , though , for today and

29:48

leave it here , and we're

29:51

getting our primer here on trauma

29:53

and what healing looks like , and then

29:55

we're going to toddle along

29:57

into congregational

30:00

life , pastoral life , and

30:02

we will expand

30:04

. And I will put Kristen's

30:07

her website in the show

30:09

notes , for sure you can connect

30:11

with her and we might even put some resources

30:14

in there so that you can

30:16

kind of dig in , because you know

30:18

, as ministry leaders , we do look at our

30:20

people and go what is wrong with them ? And

30:23

then , of course , you know we always have to ask and

30:25

what is wrong with us as a level of growth for us , as a level

30:27

of growth for us as

30:30

a level of building our

30:32

self-awareness , which is

30:34

always a helpful tool . So

30:36

, kristen , thank you so much for

30:38

your insight . We appreciate this .

30:41

Thank you for having me .

30:44

Are you wondering whether your

30:46

fatigue , your lack

30:49

of motivation , your

30:51

lack of interest

30:53

is burnout

30:56

maybe ? I

30:58

just wanted to let you know that I have a

31:00

resource on the website

31:02

, margiebricecom

31:05

, that's B-R-Y-C-E

31:07

, margiebryce dot com , MargieBryce dot com

31:11

, and it is

31:13

a burnout questionnaire , free for you to

31:15

download , and kind of self-assess

31:18

and get a sense of where you're at

31:20

. There are questions that

31:22

not only ask about what you're going through

31:24

but maybe how often you're experiencing

31:27

it and that's kind of a key to

31:30

where you might be , because

31:32

you have to know where you are in order

31:34

to chart a course forward

31:37

. And most pastors

31:39

who experience pastors and

31:41

ministry leaders who experience

31:44

burnout rarely

31:46

know that that's

31:48

where they're at until they're well

31:50

into it . And if you're

31:53

unsure about that little

31:55

statistic , so far , everybody that

31:57

I've interviewed on this podcast

31:59

who has experienced burnout

32:02

, when I asked that kind of question , they're

32:04

like , yeah , I didn't know , that's where I was at . So

32:06

again , go to margiebricecom

32:09

it on the home page of

32:11

the website and you can

32:14

get your burnout questionnaire

32:16

and kind of see

32:19

where you're at . Hey

32:22

friends , the Crabby Pastor podcast

32:25

is sponsored by Bryce Art

32:27

Glass and you can find that

32:29

on Facebook . I

32:31

make stained glass as part of my

32:33

self-care and also

32:36

by Bryce Coaching , where I

32:38

coach ministry leaders and business

32:40

leaders , and so the funds

32:43

that I generate

32:45

from coaching and from

32:47

making stained glass is what

32:49

is supporting this podcast

32:52

and I will have opportunities

32:54

for you to be a part of

32:56

sponsoring me and , as

32:59

always , you can do the buy

33:01

me a cup of coffee thing in the

33:03

show notes . But

33:06

I will have some other ways that you can

33:08

be a part of getting the word out about

33:10

the importance of healthy self-care

33:12

for ministry leaders

33:15

. Hey

33:20

, thanks for listening . It

33:22

is my deep desire and

33:24

passion to champion issues

33:26

of sustainability in

33:29

ministry and for

33:31

your life , so I'm here to help

33:33

. I stepped back from pastoral ministry

33:35

and I feel called to help

33:38

ministry leaders create

33:41

and cultivate sustainability

33:43

in their lives so that

33:45

they can go the distance with

33:47

God and whatever plans

33:49

that God has for you . I

33:52

would love to help , I would consider

33:54

it an honor and

33:56

, in all things , make sure you

33:58

connect to these sustainability

34:00

practices you know , so that

34:03

you don't become

34:05

the crabby pastor .