0:02

Welcome to the Creative Pen Podcast.

0:05

I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and

0:07

creative entrepreneur, bringing you

0:09

interviews, inspiration, and information on

0:12

writing, publishing options, and marketing

0:14

ideas for your book. You

0:17

can find the episode show

0:20

notes, your free author blueprint,

0:22

and lots more information at

0:24

thecreativepen.com. And that's Penn with a

0:26

double N. And here's the show.

0:31

Hello, creatives. I'm Joanna Penn, and this is

0:33

episode 747 of the podcast. And

0:37

it is Saturday, the 20th of April, 2024, as

0:41

I record this. In today's

0:43

show, I have a discussion about

0:45

the mid list indie author with

0:47

T. Thorne Coyle, where we

0:49

discuss creative and business practices for

0:51

those of us who make a

0:53

decent or even a very good

0:55

living without being super famous or

0:57

a seven figure author outlier. So

1:00

that's coming up in the interview section. So

1:06

in publishing industry news, excitingly Book

1:08

Vault have launched bespoke publishing options

1:11

in their dashboard. So now you

1:13

can order gorgeous books with all

1:15

kinds of extras, ribbons, custom foiling,

1:18

custom end papers, head and tail

1:20

bands, new thicker paper stock, and

1:22

more. So I'll be using these

1:24

options to the full for my next Kickstarter

1:27

for Spear of Destiny, but you can also

1:29

use them to do print on demand, all

1:31

printed in the UK and shipped from here.

1:34

You can find out more at bookvault.app, but

1:36

I'll link to this in the show notes as

1:38

well. And of course, my Writing the

1:40

Shadow and Sasha Black

1:42

Ruby Rose latest book as well,

1:45

used as examples. Very

1:47

proud of those. Now,

1:49

crossing over publishing into AI, HarperCollins

1:53

partners with Eleven Labs

1:56

for non-English audio

1:58

books as reported by. perspectives.

2:02

From the article, the agreement will

2:04

lead to the production of audio

2:06

versions of select, deep backlist, series

2:09

books that would not otherwise have

2:11

been created. Without AI,

2:14

there simply wouldn't be the time or

2:16

resources to make this happen. And

2:18

this is the reality with audio and of

2:20

course there's all kinds of uproar about

2:22

this in various places, but the

2:25

fact is most books are not

2:27

in audio, full stop, and most

2:29

books that are even in audio in

2:31

English language are not available in

2:34

audio or even in ebook or print book in

2:36

many languages in the world. And this is where

2:38

we're going with a lot of this stuff. People

2:40

make a big fuss about

2:43

certain things, but this is opening

2:45

up a whole load more content

2:47

to people who wouldn't be able

2:49

to get it otherwise. For example,

2:52

a Bulgarian friend of mine asked if

2:54

he could listen to my audiobooks in

2:56

Bulgarian and I said definitely not right

2:59

now, but maybe within the next few

3:01

years at the moment it would be

3:03

impossible for me to pay for translation

3:06

to Bulgarian and then pay

3:08

an audio narrator in Bulgarian

3:11

as well as every other language on the planet.

3:13

But that's not going to be an issue for

3:15

much longer. Now I believe we

3:17

can do both and years ago now, like

3:19

five years ago, I said we should

3:21

have stratification of audio rights. So

3:24

we would have premium human narration

3:26

and maybe you only do that in English since

3:29

this is an English audience and

3:31

then we have AI narration, AI

3:33

translation into other languages. It is

3:36

not one or the other. It can be all

3:38

of it and this is what we have to

3:40

think about. It is

3:42

an amplifier. AI is an

3:45

amplified intelligence. Yes,

3:47

some jobs are going to change but we need

3:49

to think of amplification and the more

3:52

possibilities that are coming.

3:55

So yes, as 11 Labs said

3:57

in this press release, now every

3:59

author can see their work come

4:01

to life in audio, readers can be

4:03

offered more choice and the linguistic barriers

4:06

of content can be dissolved. And the

4:08

reality is most people can't afford to

4:10

do audio with humans.

4:13

Certainly most independent authors,

4:15

it's just way expensive. I personally

4:17

have been doing that with humans

4:19

for years and have just paid

4:21

my narrator for a few

4:24

more books in a series but when

4:26

as things change I would like to

4:28

do other editions as well. So for

4:30

example things I've narrated as a human

4:33

narrator, as a British woman. I would

4:35

love to have in other voices, male

4:37

voices for example. So yeah I think

4:39

there are many opportunities ahead and we

4:42

just have to embrace the opportunity. And

4:44

11 Labs is also partnering with

4:46

Storytel so fingers crossed Spotify will enable

4:48

the use of their files for findaway

4:51

voices which they do not at the

4:53

moment you can only use Google Play

4:55

audio through findaway voices

4:57

but that's not as varied. So I

5:00

think things will be changing in the next six

5:02

months although I think I said that last

5:04

year but maybe hold off

5:06

a little bit longer. If you are a

5:09

patron I have an interview with Leanna Morgan

5:11

about how to use 11 Labs for audio

5:13

so check that out if you're in the

5:15

community. And on this

5:17

I did want to share a tweet from Stephen

5:19

King on X this week. He said I'm

5:22

not worried about AI because I got

5:24

my mojo working and I love that

5:26

because that is how I feel. My

5:28

mojo is working with AI tools and

5:30

those of us who are trying to

5:32

use it as part of our processes

5:34

for business and marketing and creative

5:37

projects, it's a useful partner. That's

5:39

the thing and it actually amplifies

5:42

your mojo. So I loved hearing that

5:44

from Stephen King and of course X is primarily,

5:47

well now, Grok AI has come out of X

5:50

and X itself is powered by

5:52

an AI algorithm so even

5:54

if Stephen King doesn't think he's using AI

5:56

he sure is and

5:58

I'm glad he's not worried about it. Also

6:00

in AI news in terms

6:02

of podcasts, two new podcasts

6:04

out this week about AI

6:07

and publishing for writers. First

6:09

of all, the AI, well it's

6:11

not the, it's just AI Publishing

6:13

Formula. So you can just put

6:16

in AI Publishing Formula with Mel

6:18

Malpoumian and Jamie Cullican. And

6:20

that is definitely more focused on

6:23

marketing at the moment. There's

6:25

only a couple of, one episode out as this

6:27

goes out or maybe two by the time this goes

6:29

out. Also Brave New

6:31

Bookshelf with Steph Pagiannis

6:33

and Danica Favreau. So,

6:36

and they're talking, I

6:38

guess at the moment, again, they've just done

6:40

one episode. It's more about their background. Really

6:42

interesting and fantastic to hear more enthusiasm

6:45

about use cases for AI in the

6:47

creative community. And remember, you can use

6:49

the tools for marketing and business even

6:51

if you don't want to use them

6:53

for creativity and writing. So

6:56

yes, that is AI Publishing Formula

6:58

and Brave New Bookshelf. Give

7:00

them a try. In

7:04

personal news, this week I've been hardcore

7:06

editing. So Spear of Destiny came back.

7:08

So I worked through that and sent

7:11

it back for the final proofread. I

7:13

also edited the De-Extinction short story, which

7:15

is a stretch goal on the Kickstarter.

7:18

So I am really moving

7:20

into finishing Energy, which means it's all

7:22

about publishing and marketing in the next

7:25

phase. I need to get

7:27

my Kickstarter campaign sorted and start making

7:29

the marketing assets for the launch. I

7:31

like to have everything done before the

7:33

launch because it feels too much

7:35

otherwise. Well, at least 80% of

7:38

it, I guess, done beforehand.

7:40

The Kickstarter pre-launch page is

7:42

at jfpenn.com/destiny. I've also got

7:44

some long-awaited admin

7:47

to sort out this

7:49

week. And as I mentioned

7:51

X, and I'm really looking again at

7:53

how I use X, Trying

7:56

to treat it as an entirely new platform,

7:58

trying to forget that it used to be

8:00

a platform. The Be Twitter trying to begin

8:02

again almost and say thinking about a lot

8:04

of things I've been putting off? You know

8:06

anyone that creates essays and you're like a

8:08

really do not even wanna think about a

8:10

lot of this off men and. Blah

8:12

blah But now I do Served as a whole lot

8:14

of things come up to the top of my list

8:17

which I need to get dumped. say. Business and

8:19

marketing in the we get had plus

8:21

a research. Trip to Vegas. It procedural

8:23

because I just con el myself getting

8:25

started on another project so they that

8:27

puts it Would definitely be a longer

8:30

one. To think so your

8:32

emails and comment from face A thanks

8:34

to Dawn he sent a lovely picture

8:36

from his car or said police receive

8:38

writing the Saturday in today's mail all

8:40

the way from the Uk. I wanted

8:42

the print but cannot just the but

8:45

an opened the in the parking lot.

8:47

Ah sales a lovely picture Id love

8:49

to see pits this people holding my

8:51

books. I know that's an ego thing

8:53

but come on as just it's just

8:55

lovely. Oh se je tripping. Rock.

8:58

Ah said on Instagram I

9:00

was listening to this episode.

9:02

Of the creative pans out last week as

9:04

I pulled. Into the Mount Cemetery to

9:07

see the Daffodil of which I

9:09

mentioned as a patron mention that

9:11

last week us are you listen

9:13

to mention last week isn't Serendipity

9:15

Synchronicity happenstance I can't explain it

9:17

said thank you day trip things

9:19

on Instagram thought was just lovely

9:21

to see an oath a piece

9:23

of food daffodils in that Mount

9:26

A Cemetery. Please

9:28

leave a comment on the podcast say

9:30

nights at the Creative pen.com or on

9:32

the You Tube channels or message me

9:34

on up at the Create his Pants

9:36

and email me you can Semi Pets

9:38

is why you're listening to Honor at

9:40

the Creative pen.com I love to hear.

9:42

For me, it makes this more of

9:44

a conversation. This. episode sponsored

9:46

by pro lighting a difficult however you choose

9:48

the published whether you go direct to read

9:50

as or you go indeed or you want

9:53

a traditional deal you need to make your

9:55

book the best it can be providing aid

9:57

is one of my absolute must use tools

10:00

my writing process. I use it for every

10:02

book, every short story and in the last few

10:04

weeks I've been using it for Spear

10:06

of Destiny and the De-extinction short

10:08

story. So how I use

10:11

it is I open ProWritingAid on my computer

10:13

and then I open my Scrivener project within

10:15

it. I work through each chapter which is

10:17

more manageable than doing a whole document. It

10:20

suggests improvements and I don't accept all the

10:22

changes but it certainly helps me find a

10:24

lot of problems. And of course you don't

10:26

need to use Scrivener, you can use it

10:28

with Word or other writing software as well.

10:31

ProWritingAid knows all the rules of editing

10:33

and helps you apply them. And of

10:36

course you can choose not to make

10:38

changes as you like. It helps with

10:40

making your writing more active, finding repeating

10:42

words, finding words you can improve, sentence

10:45

structure, grammar, punctuation issues, typos, spacing and

10:47

more. So why use software

10:49

to help you? Why don't you just learn

10:51

all the grammar and writing rules and apply

10:53

them yourself? Well we all

10:55

use tools to improve our process and we

10:58

are also often blind to our writing

11:00

issues. It helps to have another

11:02

pair of eyes, even if the eyes are

11:04

software. So won't a

11:06

human editor do all this? Well yes they

11:08

can do but I'd rather pay my editor,

11:11

Kristen, to fix the things that the software

11:13

can't. As brilliant as ProWritingAid

11:15

is, it cannot read the manuscript as

11:17

a whole or comment on bigger issues

11:19

like character development or inconsistencies or plot

11:22

holes or structure for non-fiction. So

11:24

why use ProWritingAid as my essential editing

11:26

tool before sending to my human editor?

11:30

You can check out the free edition or get 25% off

11:33

the premium edition by

11:35

using my link prowritingaid.com/Joanna

11:38

prowritingaid.com/J-O-A-N-N-A.

11:42

So this type of corporate sponsorship

11:44

pays for the hosting, transcription and

11:47

editing but my time in creating

11:49

the show is sponsored by my

11:51

community at patreon.com/the creative pen. Thanks

11:54

to the 11 new patrons who've

11:56

joined this week and thanks to everyone who's

11:58

been supporting for months and years. If

12:01

you join the community, the access

12:03

to all the bad publicity eight

12:05

and audio covering lots of topics

12:07

of creativity including creativity, business and

12:09

Ai that which he toiled this

12:11

mindset stuff And last week I

12:14

did my monthly Q and A

12:16

audio an hour of answering questions

12:18

from patrons basically an extra solo

12:20

show. Apache. Own is now

12:22

monthly subscription the equivalent of buying me a

12:24

black coffee a month or couple of coffees

12:26

if you're feeling generous. So if you get

12:29

value from the show and you want more,

12:31

come on Eva and join more than a

12:33

thousand authors. Thanks to Opaque

12:35

since you've been supporting the So

12:37

you are amazing and I'm say

12:39

daddy find this a useful off

12:41

the all This time join us

12:43

at patreon.com Patren.com Full it lasts

12:46

a creative pen right? Let's get

12:48

into the interview. T.

12:52

Thorn Coil is the author

12:54

of paranormal mystery, urban fantasy,

12:57

own histories, epic fantasy as

12:59

well as nonfiction around magical

13:01

practice. Their. Latest book is

13:03

the Middle East. In the author mindset

13:05

see welcome back to the Safe Zone.

13:08

Thanks so much! It's great to be back! Guess I

13:10

know and I have. A Look. It's been

13:12

six years since. Wow. This? yeah. That's

13:15

a long time, especially among and

13:17

specially on the Envy publishing world.

13:19

Yeah, I mean, we're We're old

13:21

school. Which probably means we met

13:24

light a decade. Ago he out?

13:26

Probably not. Probably. Have. Some of

13:28

which is so funny. So let's assume

13:30

people haven't listened to all episode from

13:32

succeeds Go know things have moved on

13:34

to tell us a bit more about

13:36

you and how you go into biting

13:38

and publishing. Well I

13:40

was one of those people in I've. Written from

13:43

five with her tiny child probably h

13:45

five. Or six at wrote

13:47

poetry to journalism as a

13:49

teenager. root for tattoo magazines

13:51

in the eighties and nineties

13:53

and. Really wanted to write

13:56

fiction and I would practice frames.

13:58

Fiction. and then I find me. Give Up

14:00

By was the classic. I went labor over a

14:02

short story for a year. I would stall out

14:05

three quarters into a novel. But

14:07

I loved one nonfiction also

14:09

and that was easier for

14:12

me. Laugh of a challenge.

14:14

And so I got my

14:16

first nonfiction major publishing traditional

14:18

publishing contract twenty years ago.

14:21

I sold a book to

14:23

Penguin and. Gave.

14:25

Up Six and and focus on

14:27

non fiction and traveling the world

14:30

and teaching for a decade and

14:32

two decades and then fiction came

14:34

back. Some characters

14:36

shut up the my head

14:38

one day and I started

14:40

writing fiction. I started studying

14:42

craft and then started seriously

14:44

publishing. End he published. Seen, I

14:47

decided I didn't want to go

14:49

trad my three months first nonfiction

14:51

book for all traditional published. I

14:54

didn't wanna go traditional for six

14:56

And because I saw the struggles

14:58

my friends were having with traditional

15:00

publishing and my own struggles with

15:03

traditional publishing started Seriously indeed. Published

15:05

seen in Twenty seventeen. And

15:08

here we are today and I've got a big

15:10

catalogue. Now and I just keep going.

15:13

To suggest seats it load is a

15:15

big catalogue. Well, I

15:17

have probably including short

15:19

story collections probably thirty

15:22

books. which for me as a big

15:24

catalogue I know for. Other people, that's a

15:26

tiny catalogue. But.

15:29

It, it might even be more than

15:31

thirty bucks now. Aids I sales to

15:33

keep track and mean, It's also funny

15:35

because he says it's slightly apologetic about

15:37

thirty bucks in Id this to and

15:39

it's like this is ridiculous because it

15:41

is authors who write to books in

15:44

their whole life. I

15:46

know people like that. I certainly know a lot

15:48

or traditional authors who only right a couple books

15:50

and that's great tits. just a hard way to

15:52

make a living. Yeah, exactly.

15:54

So let's get in. Sees the

15:56

books say the Middle East India

15:58

also mindset. Like this would

16:01

make less probably means more in the

16:03

traditional publishing world when it was dealt

16:05

with that what is the mid lists

16:07

and why use that concept of what

16:09

is it moon. The reason

16:11

I latched onto the concept of

16:14

Medalist And you're right, it does

16:16

come from traditional publishing, so I'll

16:18

give a little background in traditional

16:20

publishing, especially. and. Marks. The.

16:23

Seventies. Eighties and nineties. Needless

16:25

Authors were the bread and butter

16:27

authors. They were middle class. They

16:30

weren't best sellers. But. They

16:32

put out books people enjoyed year after

16:34

year after year. And they with

16:36

a backbone of a lot of publishing

16:38

for a long. Time So the

16:40

best sellers financed the non

16:43

sellers of the poor sellers

16:45

of the Middle East. Just

16:47

kept on. Writing. Books people

16:50

enjoyed that slowly faded away. as

16:52

traditional publishing changed, it became harder

16:54

and harder to make a living

16:56

as kind of a middle class

16:58

medalist author. And the other thing

17:01

about. Middle this author's as they had a

17:03

big catalog. Because. They just

17:05

kept publishing year. after year usually

17:07

genre section of some

17:09

sort or another and.

17:12

As. Built up a catalogue the

17:14

people intrude in traditional publishing of

17:16

called a backlist. The

17:19

So use that terminology that it's

17:21

not really accurate. For indie

17:23

publishing backlist and traditional

17:25

publishing. Fruitless is

17:27

a brand new books that they pushed

17:29

for three months. That's.

17:32

without me vocalist as anything

17:34

else might be any sort.

17:36

Of lot because as in the

17:39

authors, We can do, we can

17:41

rewards. We can do whatever we want with

17:43

all those books. They're not

17:45

gonna go away. Great. So

17:48

I wanted to bring forth as concept of

17:50

Middle East and to the indie world because

17:52

so many people. Say well if I'm

17:54

not making multiple. Six figures are

17:57

southern sitting. On a failure.

18:00

And I'm A Believe. It's possible

18:02

for a lot of people. To.

18:04

Find ways to make a decent middle

18:07

class living. As writers, And

18:10

it's a lot. More attainable,

18:13

And sustainable. Then.

18:16

Some. Of the tactics and

18:18

techniques people use to grow

18:20

to be. Multi six Like

18:23

a six figure. Or seven figure

18:25

author's rights am a conceal discouraging

18:27

I think to a lot of

18:29

people when. We see the

18:31

success stories and think well I may

18:33

as. Well. Win the lottery or get struck

18:35

by lightning. Me that

18:37

how unattainable it feels And.

18:41

I. Realized in my own wise.

18:44

I had to curtail some of

18:46

my ambitions. Because

18:48

of life circumstances. And

18:50

realize what I really wanted. Was.

18:53

A slow, sustainable build. And

18:56

a sustainable to do. And

18:58

if I can do it, I think a lot of

19:01

people can do it. Yeah. I'm

19:03

actually as as the problem is it

19:05

the Middle East is it's not a

19:07

very sexy dollars, not very rainy day,

19:09

six eight seven say yet. But as

19:11

you say it's more like the slow

19:13

build sustainable living sustainable lifestyle. Things that

19:16

actually give us a did a good

19:18

life and sometimes I feel like you

19:20

have to be careful what you wish

19:22

for an inability. Top of that about

19:24

your jet set lifestyle. you know you

19:26

didn't travel a lot teaching and but

19:28

say what happened to that like the

19:31

wind is a romance disappear from. That

19:33

lifestyle. So it

19:35

was. Around.

19:38

Twelve years ago. I.

19:40

Really start stopped wanting to travel all

19:42

the time. I was traveling all over

19:44

the world constantly. Blood. And

19:46

home for the month. I was. On

19:49

an airplane and it was wonderful.

19:51

I met amazing people, I saw

19:53

amazing places, and I was getting

19:56

paid to do it. But unbeknownst

19:58

to me, my. I'm diagnosed

20:00

chronic illness was getting worse. So.

20:03

That was starting to happen and also

20:06

this is burning out. I was going

20:08

on on having to be this public

20:10

figure. even though it was in a

20:12

small sphere, I was burning out on

20:14

the travel and. I'll

20:16

never forget one. Time I came

20:19

back from a trip. I crawled into

20:21

bed and said I'm done. And

20:23

I still had. Six. Months to years

20:26

where the Trips books. So

20:29

I just had to get through that time

20:31

and then recalibrate and figure out what to

20:33

do. And that's. When I did my

20:35

major repairs it and it also. Coincided

20:37

when his characters show that and

20:39

I started studying such. Again, so

20:41

yeah, I burned out really badly.

20:43

which I know a lot of

20:46

people do And me to. Make

20:48

career change, So.

20:51

I realized. I still had

20:53

those ambitions. I took

20:55

some of my ambitions into the in

20:57

the writing sphere early on before I

20:59

realized that was not going to be

21:01

sustainable. There. Were things people were

21:04

doing. There were all about the fast

21:06

build. They were all about

21:08

the specs. You know it's a huge. Income

21:10

right away and. I

21:12

was trying to do that and sailing.

21:16

And. Had to reassess and say okay, what

21:18

can i. Actually, to. And

21:21

so I slowly figured. It out for myself. Yeah,

21:24

and what do we want to do

21:26

as well. And it's interesting that the

21:28

characters came back at the point at

21:30

which he said, i'm kind of done

21:33

with that lies and yeah, and so

21:35

you opened up space in your mind

21:37

for that. And I certainly I talked

21:39

about that this years ago when I

21:41

made a decision to opt out of

21:43

my career. I still have five more

21:46

years of that items insulting to us,

21:48

but I knocks it out of the

21:50

career ladder, say I did what I

21:52

needed d T. To make the

21:54

money and to do a good job. So

21:57

my boss thought I knew I was leaving

21:59

and that. The and up the potential for

22:01

what then came next and it's I feel

22:03

like a lot of people don't realize that

22:05

you will miss need to make the space

22:07

luck to you for the characters to come

22:09

back. Yes, Yes! And and

22:11

the book I talk about

22:14

having a possibility mindset. And

22:16

that's what you're talking. About right making.

22:18

Space for what is possible is

22:20

really important and it gets easier

22:23

to just get on a hamster

22:25

wheel. And never heard

22:27

before. Brand new home. And

22:30

ponder as he said, what do I

22:32

want. Not. Only what's right

22:34

for me in what sustainable are possible.

22:36

Both. Worked as my heart

22:38

wants what is no whole once. In

22:41

a what's interesting to me

22:43

so I always try to

22:45

invoke curiosity. And. Has.

22:47

Invoked curiosity around writing fiction that

22:49

over the years I've learned also

22:52

to invoke curiosity about running a

22:54

business. And that was my huge.

22:56

Mindset shift. When. I decided

22:58

to get serious business instead of treating

23:00

it like a lose. Some horrible

23:03

task, right? It changed

23:05

everything for me. When

23:08

it suits, but not for minute because

23:10

Id remember having a conversation with you.

23:12

I think we might even talked about

23:14

this on our last discuss. It on

23:16

the say you're a strong activists, these

23:18

have very strong principles and money and

23:20

capitalism which is yelling at you kind

23:22

of. And so you are pushing away

23:24

Money Spot and tell us how you

23:27

got over that. How you reconcile this.

23:29

Well I still don't like the shareholder

23:32

capitalism and be a sex. It

23:34

has on the world I can say

23:37

that but since for me what I

23:39

wanna do is connect with people. And

23:42

that's always been my task. Of

23:44

a creative and. That's awesome.

23:46

I. Love as a

23:49

business person Late so. I.

23:51

Need to run a sustainable business

23:53

and take interest in it and

23:55

figure out ways to engage with

23:58

it in ways that are. The

24:00

Help Me connects with people. I

24:02

hope that's all my businesses. I

24:04

run a publishing company. Is.

24:07

About connection. Wait, so

24:09

we flaming not for myself that

24:12

it's not about. Who. Gets the

24:14

most toys. It's

24:16

about here's the world we live in.

24:19

And. What are my options? Connecting.

24:22

With people and trying to make the

24:25

world and more enjoyable. Most

24:27

horror written place you know.

24:29

and the other thing is.

24:32

I'm always a proponent of

24:34

cultural change, and one of

24:36

the best ways to bring

24:38

about culture change is captioning

24:40

people's imaginations right? So

24:43

if I want to capture

24:45

someone's imagination through my stories,

24:47

I. Have to figure out a way to reach them with

24:50

those stories. So I have to figure out how to run

24:52

a business. I think

24:54

that that would help me get serious. Yeah,

24:57

enemy and see weeks more read. it's

24:59

better to have a bigger engine in

25:01

you'll get is nice and I also

25:03

remember you saying to me if I

25:05

make a ton of money I can

25:07

always give it all away. T V

25:09

Atlases die care of my sister I

25:11

think it's really good We frames of

25:13

people is to accept them as he

25:15

makes more money as an author's because

25:17

you're selling or books you wiki more

25:19

people. Yes, exactly Six

25:21

Essex and people are excited

25:23

about my books. People are

25:25

excited about your books and

25:27

people need. Six and

25:30

right now and nonfiction to

25:32

but. It does the

25:34

world needs wonder. The

25:37

world needs hope, and if we supply

25:39

even a little bit of that for

25:41

people, how awesome is that? Yeah

25:44

and as escapism as well as we

25:46

record this, I just finished what's least

25:48

Three Body Problem on the Anathema. hadn't

25:50

read the books and Cds. the series

25:52

finished as like what in buying the

25:54

book and I learned today as it

25:56

did it is Three Body Problem Trilogy

25:58

and the Silent Spring. late for classes

26:00

that which they the news in series

26:03

in his in his boots went to

26:05

number one for novice and Bryan Murray

26:07

one's buying these books and right I

26:09

just thought that was brilliant. The kids

26:11

again it's such a resident story at

26:13

this time in history Like say these

26:15

stories have power and they connect mines

26:17

and it's a it's It's a powerful

26:19

and I feel like sometimes weeds on

26:21

with degrades writing six and like oh

26:23

we should write something more important and

26:26

inverted commas. Made. An

26:28

asshole for the great divide. Between

26:30

high literary fiction

26:32

and. What? We call

26:35

on reception recent. Oh. My cozy

26:37

paranormal mysteries are not important. Will

26:39

actually my cousin paranormal. Mysteries.

26:42

Go. For my best sellers

26:44

because people need that

26:46

escaping some people. Need from

26:48

com her know. And

26:50

so why doesn't come for

26:52

important? Why isn't enjoyment important?

26:54

I recently talked with author

26:56

Make Ellison. And see

26:58

really talks a lot about

27:01

the importance of pleasure in

27:03

life and. I agree with

27:05

her. We need. Pleasure We

27:07

need. Joy! Everything. Can't

27:09

just be hard all the time he has.

27:12

We won't make it through. you know? Yeah,

27:14

a city and semi the pleasure. Eight

27:16

gigs bed with the book is still

27:19

have a big place right right? Sometimes

27:21

I in a to say tied in

27:23

with his bed in the afternoon and

27:25

all resets in and other times a

27:27

week nonsense. And like I read your

27:29

best on the planes coming back from

27:31

Twenty Bucks is L Se Yellen. said

27:33

a nice. The Essex it was

27:36

at the great but I do want to

27:38

come back on that one point in the

27:40

book he saved my readers love my work

27:42

because I'm weird and yeah I talk about

27:44

doubling down on being human, but I think

27:46

it is easier said than done. especially in

27:49

this world where there's a lot of advice

27:51

around chasing traipse or writing small care or

27:53

any of this is how can all says

27:55

find that particular kind of weird angles to

27:57

have this confidence she left the an incident.

28:00

The. Whole

28:02

first all. That his knees nation

28:04

need to you. About the

28:06

main thing and we off

28:08

a little mistake that what

28:10

comes naturally to as and

28:12

what we really love and

28:14

feals easier for as isn't

28:16

important britain the with ordinary.

28:19

right? But what ordinary for

28:21

as is extraordinary for something else?

28:23

It feels ordinary to us because this. Is

28:26

part of this. And when

28:28

we allow that voiced come

28:30

forward, people respond. To it

28:33

because they're like, oh, That's an

28:35

authentic voice. You're. Not

28:37

putting something on your actually connecting

28:39

with me and I'm connecting with

28:42

these characters may forgive you. An

28:44

example: I have been writing. My

28:46

ancestry and kind of more

28:49

serious urban fantasy and. Others

28:51

in the middle of writing my

28:53

epic action adventure trilogy. And

28:56

I needed a break. I had of got

28:58

a concussion and a brain injury and I

29:00

started writing the. My. Cozy paranormal

29:02

mysteries which was and just bonkers and

29:05

I do the kickstarter for them and

29:07

I was very. Nervous because I thought

29:09

wow this is really different people aren't

29:11

and a like it. People.

29:14

Came. Out of the woodwork to back

29:16

up. Kickstarter my first river for the

29:18

cozy mister He said, well, you know

29:21

this cozy mysteries cause your readers tend

29:23

to be more traditional. They're not going

29:25

to be into the fact that you

29:27

have bisexual characters and transgender characters and

29:29

all this stuff and I thought, you

29:31

know what, I'm just gonna marketed. As

29:34

those in the streets. For freaks and geeks. Because.

29:36

I like cozy mysteries. And. I'm

29:38

weird. Clearly. Now I realize

29:41

oh other people who. Are weird. Also

29:43

want the comfort of cozy mysteries?

29:46

right? There are not all traditional

29:48

readers, you know, so I was

29:50

told very clearly. Cozy.

29:52

Readers are traditional. And. I

29:54

said i don't care. These

29:56

are the books I want to write. And

29:59

lo and behold. They found readers. Had.

30:02

It might take a little more time. With.

30:05

His wife about the slow build and

30:07

the book. It might take more time

30:09

but you cannot find your readers. Yeah.

30:12

Like I do want to plummet the

30:14

risk as you are super strong person

30:16

and you'll very clear on your freaks

30:18

and geeks side. Yes, and you'll visual

30:20

brand that to speak to the people.

30:22

He might not be that strong in

30:24

that knowledge of what they're weird is

30:26

say, what about people who were like,

30:29

oh, I didn't have that strong sense

30:31

of what is my weird, How do

30:33

we find that? How do we tap

30:35

into their. Again, You

30:38

mentioned earlier making space. You

30:40

know if we make space

30:42

for ourselves and will listen.

30:44

To our. Heart and.

30:47

Was interesting but most interesting. To

30:49

us rather than listening to the clamoring voices

30:52

trying to tell us what we should be

30:54

doing. That's. The first

30:56

way through. His. Sister. Pause.

31:00

Go. For a walk, meditate, ponder for

31:02

a while and think, what am

31:04

I actually drawn to. Not.

31:07

What the mark? Not what the marketers are telling

31:09

me. I should be drawn to. And.

31:12

That's how to find ourselves and find

31:14

our path forward. I think. It

31:17

starts was listening and making space

31:19

to listen. Yeah and it it

31:21

is really hard and the of

31:23

the world is super noisy in

31:25

oh yeah you could just spend

31:28

your time at endlessly scrolling whichever

31:30

social media it is or deem

31:32

reading the Nia or whatever and

31:34

then your brain is full of

31:36

all these things that it's it

31:38

sinks that it should be interested

31:41

in. So where do you find

31:43

any maybe is in the books

31:45

you read when nobody's watching. Yes,

31:48

yes, I think that's

31:50

brilliant. Yeah, what are

31:52

your so called guilty pleasures? And

31:54

put all that in your writing. And

31:57

the Mm is interesting, as I mentioned that.

32:00

The only problem again so I don't I

32:02

say I don't read so I fi because

32:04

yeah I'm like I'm not into aliens and

32:06

then watching the three body problem I didn't

32:08

know why didn't realize his divorce. It's know

32:10

about the aliens, it's about the humans. I

32:14

had always is. A always isn't for

32:16

his. I really like reading horror and I

32:18

was like oh why do you like horror

32:20

and I'm like, well, it's not about the

32:22

monsters, it's about the humans. Yeah, it's oldest

32:25

exactly This A reason it? yeah, yet we're

32:27

all just trying to make sense of the

32:29

world. In own. And our

32:31

own way. And it doesn't matter. What

32:34

genre it comes through? I.

32:36

Think it's the joy of writing

32:38

is. We get to figure out the world

32:40

and we either get to try to figure out

32:42

the world we live in already. Or.

32:45

We try to figure out what world we want

32:47

to live in. Yes

32:49

and right that's in

32:51

sees whatever ult world's.

32:54

You're. Doing it it it is interesting I

32:56

think when it comes to the marketing

32:58

because he said in the book he say

33:01

i seek it out how are you market

33:03

not how other people market which has a

33:05

similar sense of finding your aim past six

33:08

just took hot summer things you tried

33:10

that sales own and how what does would

33:12

see a. I'll go

33:14

back to that word connection figuring out

33:16

that for me. Marketing this about connection

33:18

with helpful and actually you help me

33:20

with this. Years ago we were out

33:22

some conference and he said of foreigners

33:24

great at content marketing I when I

33:27

am I have no I had no

33:29

clue because I was just doing what

33:31

I was doing right. It was natural

33:33

to me and then I went oh

33:35

okay. That's content

33:37

marketing I post. What's interesting

33:40

is still related to. My.

33:42

World. And that's how I market

33:44

the things that didn't work for

33:46

me. Were. Early on.

33:48

First of all, I didn't have a

33:51

big enough catalogue to do advertising. For

33:53

that, everyone says you have to do

33:55

advertising. So I was taking my Amazon

33:57

ads and Facebook ads classes. And

33:59

they didn't. Work for me. Turns out

34:01

all that advice at the time was

34:04

really only useful for people and Kindle

34:06

unlimited. But they weren't

34:08

telling me that the other thing that never

34:10

worked for me. Were like. A

34:13

Facebook group, takeovers newsletters

34:15

swap. Because. I'm

34:17

right. The

34:19

kind of urban fantasy these other

34:21

people are writing. So doing a

34:23

newsletter swap. Isn't gonna really

34:25

work because I don't know if

34:27

you. Readers are gonna really

34:30

loved my books right now

34:32

Essentially says it out. Oh.

34:34

A certain kinds of advertising works without

34:37

legislated a free first and see. Whether

34:39

the pace of paid newsletters, I

34:41

wasn't trying to target other people's

34:44

readers and it's just targeting. People.

34:46

He said oh we would urban fantasy

34:48

or we want to. The mystery. right?

34:51

Sided have to bring my entire

34:53

catalogue. To. These people and bringing

34:55

the one series and then if they sign

34:57

arrest in a catalogue that. Cleat The

35:00

other thing that. Didn't.

35:02

Work for me again was. An eight

35:04

minute getting trying to do promo

35:06

stalking and get the big steaks

35:09

and hit lists and all that.

35:11

There. Was never going to work for me and

35:13

that are was all feeding the beast and

35:16

I also don't think. It. Even

35:18

for the writers that was working for, I

35:20

don't think it was a long term strategy.

35:22

Old. Side. Of figure out

35:25

my long term strategy which was how do

35:27

I can next with my readers. Well.

35:30

I do that. Through my newsletter. To

35:32

do that, through how I use

35:34

social media, I do that now.

35:36

Three things like Kickstarter. Right

35:38

And so. Over the last

35:40

eight years. I've built up

35:42

enough good will. With. My

35:44

readers. The They are so

35:46

happy to share my stuff now. And

35:50

it also means when I do any

35:53

paid advertising. I'm. Strategic about

35:55

it and it works. I'm not just throwing

35:57

spaghetti at a wall. Interesting.

35:59

Nike. It is quite. Marketing

36:01

hasn't worked see but Kickstarter

36:03

is a yell at. Ten

36:05

promotional windows say you how

36:08

you doing that, what kind

36:10

of marketing you doing with

36:12

in the three weeks this

36:14

will run. That is

36:16

a great point. So

36:19

spike marketing for. Wide.

36:21

Retailers didn't work for me.

36:23

Spike marketing for direct sales.

36:26

Does. Work for Me! So I've

36:28

built up oldest Goodwill through how I

36:31

use my newsletter our to Nuts on

36:33

social media. So whenever I

36:35

go to run a kickstarter, people are

36:37

like we're Sharon. You. Kickstarter Everywhere!

36:40

Were so excited you doing

36:42

those were backing uses because

36:44

we love for work right?

36:46

Say I do! Market

36:48

moves, but I do it in the way

36:50

to their ways. I do everything out. I

36:53

use my social media platforms. I

36:55

send out notices and my newsletter.

36:58

Although, do anything special. For.

37:00

My cheek starters. It

37:02

all is organic. For me.

37:06

It just has a a time limit seal

37:08

basically to sending out some newsletters of a

37:10

feel for doing some put those interviews like

37:12

this one vs but are you running any

37:15

paid athlete or Kickstarter as he found the

37:17

me. I spent

37:19

like twenty dollars on his campaign.

37:21

That doesn't count as though I

37:24

don't I don't. You paid marketing.

37:26

Some people do. I don't. And.

37:29

My. Kickstarter: Campaigns all

37:31

do really well. So

37:33

many see them now. This.

37:36

One will be my nights. Attacks.

37:39

So what's the kind of can poke

37:41

his oversee We talking here about the

37:43

life that you people want to live

37:45

and designing your business around that seats

37:47

that what's the tempo of your kickstarter

37:49

is in a year and how do

37:51

you manage the different releases. I'd

37:54

use three a year. And three

37:56

years. Seems to work for me. I thought I was going

37:58

to do for the sheer and it was way too. Much

38:00

partially because I ran a

38:03

big for me kickstarter campaign.

38:05

Last year that brought in like twenty

38:07

five grand. And. Since I'm

38:09

doing it all myself for the spirit

38:12

and I have trouble with. My.

38:14

Princess. So it's. A

38:16

lot longer to fulfill that I wanted and so

38:18

on. Like okay, I need to take the. Fourth

38:20

Kickstarter off my plate this year because

38:23

everything's a step back there. In

38:25

a business was that three? you worked

38:27

for me because this is my full

38:30

time job for. People. I know

38:32

who lived there part time job. they run

38:34

one ear. And. It's a

38:36

great way to. Make. Money

38:38

for covers, pay for editors, and build

38:41

a new audience, which is the other

38:43

thing I love about six. Starter is

38:45

about half. Of my.

38:47

Backers. Come directly from Kickstarter

38:50

which is awesome! And

38:52

then about half com from my.

38:55

World. Yeah. From your

38:57

audience I see like this is

38:59

says this when I despair of

39:01

destiny which will be my first

39:03

section kickstarter and I've done cheese

39:05

nonfiction, ran while men more than

39:07

the writing on Six and I'm

39:09

doing it under the same name

39:11

and this will be my sis

39:13

thriller and I feel like hundred

39:15

and has have really low expectations

39:17

because I spent the last twelve

39:19

years training and six in Leaders

39:21

T by he bucks on Amazon

39:23

basically rates to do with you.

39:25

Feel like if. He still. With

39:27

six and particularly. Were lot of. That's where

39:29

lot of our he does come from. Does it take

39:31

a wild that we train your readers to. One other

39:34

things. Know. My readers

39:36

love Kickstarter. I mean some of

39:38

them are confused by it, especially

39:40

some of my older readers and

39:42

I have to do a minor

39:44

amount a hand holding that know

39:46

Kickstarter? Actually, Like if I

39:48

do a regular book launch. On

39:51

wide retailers. Maybe. A

39:53

couple people will share it. May. Be some

39:55

people will buy it if I don't. To actual

39:58

advertising my kickstarter. People.

40:01

Know it's time limited. It's

40:03

an event. He. Hated

40:05

to participate. And

40:08

so it spreads. right?

40:11

My readers do my marketing for me

40:13

and then the kickstarter algorithm six them

40:15

and it does my marketing for me.

40:18

Rate is actually much easier

40:20

for me then launching something.

40:23

Enter the void. On.

40:25

Amazon or Apple. Yeah.

40:28

I'm quite nice to see how

40:30

it days eighty one Aussie to

40:32

see you mentioned your chronic illness

40:34

brain injury and you. Took. That the

40:36

show succeed in your book. Britain,

40:39

we. Do a kickstarter Say

40:41

it is. Got the kickstarter timing

40:43

What happened in this sense into

40:45

him? Happens in your hills that

40:48

uses can't do it or like you

40:50

said sings get back up Like how

40:52

are you managing your health issues With

40:54

the ups and downs of being an

40:56

author. Well, it might seem

40:58

strange to talk about health. Issues and

41:00

a business book. But it felt

41:02

important to me because everyone else

41:05

something going on in their life

41:07

which is why I love this

41:09

question bombed. I pad a lot

41:11

of time into my fulfillment like

41:13

I don't. I try to

41:15

not plan. I make this mistake all the

41:17

time where I set out my years goals

41:20

when I'm feeling good and then when I'm

41:22

not feeling good, I have to deal with

41:24

those gold and I have to reassess. Them

41:26

and pivot and arrears. Read write

41:28

my production schedule right. I do

41:31

it all the time. Legacy. But.

41:34

With Kickstarter, I've learned to.

41:37

Build an extra. Time for

41:39

fulfillment. right? So

41:41

if you think it's gonna take too

41:43

much for fulfill. Tell. People

41:46

you're fulfilling three to four month. right?

41:49

If you think you're going to fulfill and four months,

41:51

tell people you're going to fulfill. And six months. Just

41:54

add in space, give yourself grace,

41:56

and then if you fulfill early,

41:59

that's awesome. The

42:02

campaign I just. Have. Fun!

42:04

I just finished fulfilling. I

42:07

just hope people. Hey, here's what's

42:09

happening with the printer. I'm having these

42:11

issues were working on it. I just.

42:13

Putting communication and people were very

42:15

kind and happy. Just

42:18

to. Be communicated with I'm so I

42:20

was about a month behind and fulfillment

42:22

which is not the end of the

42:24

world. right? Yeah, see

42:26

the books at the end of the day. see

42:28

our likes. Of seriously you know.

42:32

So yeah, just communicate with people. First

42:34

build an extra space and time.

42:37

Building a buffer and then.

42:39

Communicate clearly and people are

42:41

very happy to be supportive.

42:44

Most people want to be kind. Yeah.

42:47

I agree since just coming back soon

42:49

he said because he talks their about

42:51

communication an early talks about as the

42:53

fundamental aspects of your marketing see what

42:55

do you do in your knees as

42:58

to what do you send out to

43:00

people was I feel like this is

43:02

something that many authors struggle is. So.

43:06

I used to fairly use my news

43:08

that are coming out a traditional publishing.

43:11

I. Never used to newsletter. I think

43:13

that's changed now, but. I

43:15

send out. A weekly.

43:18

Mrs about what I'm thinking about.

43:21

I post a photo of one of

43:23

my and take on one of my

43:25

walks and just whatever of thoughts I

43:27

have a man at the end of

43:29

this like three hundred word Mrs. I

43:31

do a line breaks. And a

43:34

small add of you know, here's

43:36

my latest. Podcast time on or

43:38

serious this book that is on

43:40

sale or his just monster. Here's

43:42

my kickstarter rates: So people come

43:45

back week after week. And

43:47

they know what they're gonna get for me.

43:50

Is just some thoughts from Born. And

43:53

enough people. Like that that some

43:55

people actually. Pay me for it even though it's

43:57

a free newsletter. Run up for. The

44:00

fact. That yeah it, I was on

44:02

suspects or three years. I've just recently

44:04

switched to be highs. I'm. Cause

44:06

of the Nazis? Yeah, has of

44:09

the Nazis of yeah I yeah.

44:11

I mean it's unfortunate that. Stacked

44:14

decided to make those choices. So.

44:18

I think it's still a better platform but

44:20

behind is getting their laughably. I have great

44:23

hope. So that that that's

44:25

another thing I changed right? I used

44:27

to try to be on convert kit

44:29

and do all the automated sequences. That

44:32

everyone said, we're best practices for newsletters

44:34

and those work for a lot of

44:36

people. Oh, segment your email list.

44:38

Do these sequences that market. He

44:41

never worked for me. however. So.

44:43

It made putting that my newsletter a chore. I

44:47

said i'm gonna start. Paying for this.

44:50

And then again to this free service. Animal

44:52

a snippet down and say here's what

44:54

I'm doing every week and gonna send

44:57

out thoughts. With. A tiny odd.

45:00

And that. Was. A huge

45:02

shift for me. I started as we

45:04

just over three years ago. On.

45:08

Father couple of the newsletter People.

45:10

So the newsletter on social media.

45:12

People reply, people send me long

45:14

com thoughtful comments. Vote.

45:17

So I'll do that with it was

45:19

how marketing work for me. As

45:23

into since his Id have to resist

45:25

the list but actually when you were

45:28

talking their i realize that's what I

45:30

do on this show is my introduction.

45:33

He. Has leads the things I'm

45:35

thinking about. Guns many

45:37

people. Many. People are still

45:39

listening to your interview, but some people

45:42

did just come said incident, sit here

45:44

and see that as actually exactly what

45:46

eat it said you're doing and writing

45:48

on. doing it with talking. Yeah,

45:51

and I just let it be simple. It's

45:53

like okay, here is three hundred words.

45:55

I can write that and. Fifteen

45:58

twenty minutes. Here's a photo. And

46:01

it works for me. And it works.

46:03

For my readers which to see resentment.

46:05

Is to connect Yes said. Yeah,

46:08

yeah, and I think this is the

46:10

point we talked about earlier is everyone's

46:12

quite smart these days around. Seems to

46:14

were you when things are a gimmick

46:16

or they're not yo yo? I still

46:19

think that means human and the human

46:21

connection is important. See that. Will it

46:23

come to social media? Then it is

46:25

again. I think we. Use.

46:28

To exchange things on Twitter when it

46:30

was Twitter, a lot of people have

46:32

moved on from some platforms and a

46:34

New York C for ethical person Say

46:36

it's what are you doing with social

46:39

media now? Well. The first

46:41

of all Wiesenthal after. Figure it

46:43

out because we live in the

46:45

world and my I'm not judging

46:47

people who are on various platforms.

46:49

Losing Twitter was. A. Great loss, right?

46:51

Twitter was actually my son for

46:54

platform. Of headed off

46:56

a facebook. For. And

46:58

since I've been on it. Is

47:00

that people leave tasted maybe they will

47:03

eventually but that is not when I

47:05

would he lie is when we all

47:07

die thought oh right yeah when all

47:09

the old people dice. So. I.

47:12

I very simply I only use my

47:14

public facebook. Page: I don't use my private

47:16

page except had track a few. Author Group.

47:20

I do one post same post

47:22

facebook. And Instagram every morning.

47:24

Usually it's a photo and

47:27

I thought I'm on mastodon.

47:29

Which strangely enough, mastodon have

47:31

no algorithm and it is

47:33

my best place to get.

47:36

Marketing Traction. Because.

47:39

People know I'm showing up making

47:41

posts, even if it's as one

47:43

simple post a day. Then when

47:45

I post something. Marketing related it

47:47

cuts shared. I. Get

47:49

more shares on Mastodon than anywhere else

47:51

and even though it has no algorithm.

47:54

And. Then I'm on blue sky, which

47:56

frankly is useless smith. Is

47:58

in L. I did so. Read it

48:00

over a went cold fix cell phone

48:03

from her Harper over. Com and I'm

48:05

like oh my gosh the comments on

48:07

drugs or although it's like is country

48:10

T from Twitter ended up here thread

48:12

Yes it did. He did. So

48:14

my social media strategy is very

48:16

simple. I do one simple post

48:18

today. And then I

48:21

try to remember to occasionally do

48:23

a marketing post. And then when

48:25

I'm running a Kickstarter though I

48:27

do. You do a more marketing

48:29

related post pretty much every day

48:32

during my kickstarter. that, since I'm

48:34

not doing enough constantly. google.

48:38

Seem. Supportive of it right there are

48:40

not always getting bombarded by buy My

48:42

Book. From me. And so

48:44

they're really. Happy to support.

48:47

When. I'm running a kickstarter. The. Really happy

48:50

to do things like share my newsletter

48:52

when I put my newsletter on social

48:54

media, Things like that. And

48:57

I think your thoughts ah again

48:59

used in the things you care

49:01

about and sometimes that is about.

49:03

Protests. Or ah, or tattoos.

49:05

All gender issues. I mean you

49:07

do just sad. Quite all A's

49:09

at the place I say, I

49:12

do, I do. I try to

49:14

be uplifting as much as possible.

49:16

I'm posting about something difficult. I

49:18

always try to have. Called

49:21

action that people can actually do

49:23

instead of are not just on.

49:25

They're complaining. My rule for. Public

49:27

discourse is I try to be signal and

49:29

not noise. There's. Too much

49:31

noise of their right? So what

49:34

Is my signal that I'm trying

49:36

to put out to reach people

49:38

and. Was. My. Presence

49:40

conceal all over the map and

49:42

I have felt that about myself

49:45

like. You. Know syrup.

49:47

By. My books. But I'm also.

49:49

Talking about Mandrake. but here's a flower.

49:52

The first saw a much larger. Mm

49:55

Here is this social.

49:57

Justice thing that's happening. but

49:59

true. The that's all me

50:01

and. That is all in my

50:03

books to. And that's the

50:05

point a sauna make. I didn't mean you

50:08

were all over the place I mean he

50:10

talk about all the things that go yes

50:12

is your books what you are political and

50:14

you'll help of political said the other wanna

50:16

do politics then either they know you're person

50:18

but people who exactly love your politics will

50:20

love your books say when I think that's

50:23

what I saw him get out your in

50:25

you are very of i hate the word

50:27

authentic for you all for yeah but. I

50:30

can't not be, which is why I

50:32

just had to figure it out for

50:35

myself. But what's interesting to

50:37

me is at this point in the

50:39

in the author world I'm Syrian. This.

50:42

From a lot more people. Run.

50:44

Didn't a lot of people right now

50:46

are we assess seen how they've been.

50:49

Marketing and what they've been writing and

50:51

what they want their careers to look.

50:53

Like I think as a whole and

50:55

then the author world were. Taken.

50:58

A step back. Right now I'm saying

51:00

how do we want to move forward

51:02

and for mean, We're always

51:04

is hard to be be myself when I

51:06

first. Started publishing six and everyone said you

51:08

need to do it under a pen name

51:10

because you're gonna police or Amazon. Also bought

51:12

my mike. I don't

51:14

care. I have spent decades building

51:17

a. Good will with

51:19

people with my name. I'm

51:21

just gonna write fiction under the

51:24

name and lo and behold, Amazon

51:27

also, but. Quickly went away

51:29

right. The. Amazon algorithm changes every

51:31

six months to a year. Fallacy It

51:33

seems every week of the for probably

51:35

run out of so people who are

51:37

trying people have figured out. oh we

51:39

can't just cc algorithm. Anymore. It

51:42

doesn't work long term, so yeah,

51:44

I came up with a tagline.

51:47

Before my author Business and

51:49

it's magic is real. And.

51:51

Justice is worth fighting for. And

51:54

so. People. Know that's what they're

51:56

going to get from me no matter what I'm

51:59

writing are talking. Yeah,

52:01

amounts of magic, innocence of justice,

52:04

Who. And a lot of people want a

52:06

tagline I have tried as of even asked you

52:08

about this before as well. I still letting of

52:10

a. Tagline: I

52:12

mean. I did and did. It take you

52:14

long time to get to that or is

52:16

it as it always been very clear for

52:18

you. What I

52:21

did. It took me a little while,

52:23

but it didn't take me that long. I

52:25

just. Again, plans and incest

52:27

and said what am I think me

52:29

something I need. What are

52:31

the strongest threads in my work? And

52:33

what are the strongest threads I want

52:35

to put out in the world? And.

52:38

That came. In

52:41

and so. A. For you,

52:43

I think you're really interested

52:45

in. Human

52:47

emotion. I think you're

52:49

really years obviously interested in the saddle. You're.

52:53

Interested in what makes us tick?

52:56

Rate. So there's something in

52:58

your work and I think that also

53:00

includes. Your authors stuff. right?

53:03

Your author book. Over

53:05

time I think have grown to

53:07

include more and more of your

53:09

interests and human psychology and philosophy.

53:13

Or maybe that's part of it in

53:15

a little thing is to. People.

53:17

He's been doing this a while now

53:20

and ice I feel like that's another

53:22

saying and also around the all birds

53:24

and talking about the slogans such some

53:26

of the suspects time my yeah, none

53:28

of this appears and the night and

53:30

I get people sometimes in the dead

53:32

trying to seek a little this out

53:34

in the haven't even sinister first book.

53:37

Yes yes. Yes, Pacers.

53:39

I guess the patience and

53:41

patience is hard. Every new

53:43

writer wants to be an

53:45

overnight success. But. The

53:47

thing I'll tell you is I've seen people

53:49

who been overnight successes that with a lot

53:51

of pressure on the work and I think

53:54

it makes it harder to build a long

53:56

term career. For most people. You

53:58

know you start thinking. One of my

54:00

next book isn't as good. If what

54:03

if people don't like it right? instead of.

54:05

Just giving yourself the freedom frankly know

54:07

and knowing who you are. Is

54:10

a huge boon to your creativity because you

54:12

can do whatever you want and find. Your

54:14

voice over time. And slowly

54:16

build an audience. Over time. Christine.

54:19

Catherine Rush says we build

54:22

our career. One reader at

54:24

a time. And

54:26

a fluke. Doubling

54:28

down on that is hopeful I don't

54:30

have to reach. One

54:32

hundred thousand people. Or even a thousand people.

54:35

I want to reach one person. They'd.

54:38

That's where it starts. Yeah.

54:41

Absolutely snow. There are loads else.

54:43

Great. Tits and sings in the

54:46

book a Swedish meat he's got lots said

54:48

it to tell people about the kickstarter where

54:50

they can find it's and I guess what

54:52

Also when it's running. So

54:55

the kickstarter lot april sixteenth and

54:57

it will run through the. First

55:00

hurt me and I

55:02

will have. Some. Checklist

55:05

for medalist mindset.

55:07

Changes: I will have some coaching

55:10

options for people who really want

55:12

to say hey, How do I

55:14

shift my mindset around the stuff? I'm struggling

55:16

with? This area. Of my writer business

55:18

so it's not going to be

55:20

coaching around. Like. Specifics on marketing

55:23

it's all going to be mindset coaching

55:25

and then of course I'll have the

55:27

books in print, books and maybe some

55:29

other surprises. Who. Are fantastic.

55:31

Sweat else can be find the

55:34

one nine. A Thorn

55:36

coil.com. Brilliant. List: Thanks

55:38

so much for your time So and that was

55:40

great! Thanks. Again for having

55:42

me back on the show. So.

55:47

Hit be found the discussion with so

55:49

an interesting and that it encouraged you

55:51

to think about how you can design

55:53

a long ten creative lifestyle. As an

55:55

in the author. You

55:58

can leave a comment on the poker say nights. The

56:00

Creative pen.com or on the You Tube

56:02

channels or message me on X at

56:04

the crease his pen with a Dublin

56:06

or email me to enter the Creative

56:08

pen.com. Next week

56:10

I'm talking about human censored book.

56:12

Marketing Western Bank. And

56:15

in the meantime have you voting And

56:17

in Phoenix believe. Thanks

56:22

for listening today! I hope

56:24

you found it helpful. He

56:26

might also like the that

56:28

plus episodes and sunni available

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