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00:00:17:18 - 00:00:44:24 Speaker 1 Welcome to the Creative Success podcast. I'm your host, Joe. Hi. This is the show. For listeners who are interested in adding something to their lives in new and creative ways to inspire you to think differently and outside the box. Today's guest is photographer, artist and author Sean Tucker. After leaving the church, Sean pursued being an artist. He built a business around his photography, doing portraiture and street photography. 00:00:45:05 - 00:01:07:07 Speaker 1 He also started a successful YouTube channel, and most recently he wrote his book The Meaning in the Making, which is an excellent read on a philosophical look at how to live a more creative life. In this episode, we talk about staying inspired, making mental space for creativity to flourish, and Sean even challenges my own beliefs on the separation between creativity and productivity. 00:01:07:17 - 00:01:26:13 Speaker 1 Honestly, my mind is still swimming. After the discussion with Sean, and I believe you will really enjoy this episode. So without further ado, let's get into the next story in the Creative Success podcast. 00:01:28:23 - 00:01:37:08 Speaker 1 Well, it is my pleasure on this show to introduce Mr. Sean Tucker. Sean. Welcome to the creative Success Podcast. 00:01:37:21 - 00:01:38:18 Speaker 2 Thanks for having me, man. 00:01:39:01 - 00:01:47:10 Speaker 1 Pleasure's mine. Thank you for making the time. I know this is a this is a brand new endeavor. So you're really doing us a favor by being one of the initial guests here? 00:01:47:26 - 00:01:48:14 Speaker 2 No worries. 00:01:49:05 - 00:02:04:06 Speaker 1 So, Sean, for the people who have yet to learn much about you in means of introduction, how would you describe yourself and the lifestyle and the job that you're currently in? 00:02:05:19 - 00:02:43:28 Speaker 2 Right now, I. I work for myself and my time is kind of split into a few different avenues. So I produce videos which go on to a YouTube channel that talk about photography specifically and creativity more generally. I suppose, and that takes up part of my time. The other is doing my own photography work and projects, which goes out as books each year, and I do the all bit of client work now and again, although most of it I do tend to turn down to sort of protect time for my own projects because doing client work is is not as essential as it used to be. 00:02:43:28 - 00:03:08:21 Speaker 2 I can sort of keep my head above water with the other things. And then in the last year I've also released a published book on creativity as well. So there was the writing aspect that took up a big chunk of time as well. So I guess the short answer is an all around creative person, photographer, filmmaker, author and time get split between those depending on, you know, what's essential, what's what's pressing on any given week. 00:03:09:08 - 00:03:16:05 Speaker 1 So it might be difficult to nail down with one word, you know, Oh, I'm a photographer, I'm a YouTuber. I'm a writer. 00:03:16:19 - 00:03:33:21 Speaker 2 Yeah. And I mean, I've never really I kind of like that. You know, it's that it's that jack of all trades idea. I like the fact that I used to do a lot of other creative things, too. You know, I was a musician in my twenties, and that was part of it too. And, you know, I've done other sorts of writing along the years and, you know, there's been lots of little things. 00:03:33:21 - 00:03:49:12 Speaker 2 I like the fact that I get to make a living out of a mix of different creative outlet so I don't have to just lean on the one. It means I get to give my time to different things as well, which I suppose keeps you inspired and from getting bored with just, you know, doing something that becomes repetitive. 00:03:49:12 - 00:04:07:12 Speaker 2 So yeah, it's a choice for sure. And it might mean that I'm not as strong on any one of those as I might be if I just dedicated all my time and focus to one thing in particular. But I'm alright with that, you know, I'd rather be a bit more of a creative generalist that's good at a bunch of things instead brilliant at one thing. 00:04:08:09 - 00:04:39:10 Speaker 1 Well, that's exactly why I'm talking to you today and to people like you, because I wanted to interview people who had made that kind of a choice to do something outside the norm. And that is maybe even more difficult to define when somebody says, you know what? What do you do? The idea behind this entire show is to inspire people to think outside the box in how they can build a lifestyle, how they can build businesses or income, or just how they can carry themselves in everyday life. 00:04:39:22 - 00:05:20:14 Speaker 1 So I've been really, really excited to speak with you and since recently purchasing your book, The Meaning in the Making, it just all the more, I was like, Okay, yeah, I definitely, definitely want to talk to this guy in the initial shows. So with that in mind of having this somewhat difficult to define lifestyle or job as we're as we're discussing here by choice, and forgive me if this is just jumping right into it too soon, but have you encountered any misunderstandings when people ask you about what you do or when you try to explain that you have these different avenues of what you do in life? 00:05:20:19 - 00:05:22:29 Speaker 1 And if so, what are those misunderstandings? 00:05:24:07 - 00:05:45:10 Speaker 2 Not really. I mean, I think I think what I do in the way I do it now is is far more common, certainly, than it's ever been before. That's true. People do tend to especially freelancing, you know, I mean, I think the the advice that you hear over and over again out there for freelance is to try diversify your income, diversify, you know, the work that you do. 00:05:45:10 - 00:06:02:06 Speaker 2 So you're not relying on one thing. So I think most people get it. If I introduce myself to somebody new, I might just go, I'm a photographer, you know, just to sort of make it easy. But then if they want to talk more about it all and it and no one's really confused about that, I think everyone I think everyone gets it. 00:06:02:29 - 00:06:31:26 Speaker 2 Maybe the only kind of misconception I've found is it's very difficult. The minute you put YouTube in the mix, because I think I think people are quite mystified by that as a way to make money or as a job. And understandably, I suppose, if you're not involved with it. But I think the immediate thing that comes to mind is, you know, teenagers playing games online or something, you know, for videos and then throwing it out there and, and that not being a serious job. 00:06:32:07 - 00:06:49:16 Speaker 2 But I think the more you talk to people and certainly when I kind of show them the videos are making and how I do try and make them, especially the little documentaries that make another photographer, I try and make them proper documentaries, little short films that yes, I think slowly people understand that there's different there's a there are different levels of something like YouTube. 00:06:49:16 - 00:07:06:22 Speaker 2 You can try and take it seriously as a filmmaker and put things out there that you you really believe in and want to polish and and you want them to be deeper and meaning more meaningful as well. The most of the stuff that might go up on something like YouTube, that's something I often have to chat to people a little bit about. 00:07:06:22 - 00:07:12:20 Speaker 2 If if I use the word YouTube, because you immediately see people kind of glaze over and go, Oh, he's not serious. Like he's not. 00:07:12:20 - 00:07:13:26 Speaker 1 Overcome the stereotype. 00:07:13:27 - 00:07:18:15 Speaker 2 He's not a serious filmmaker or artist because like YouTube's just for fun, you know what I mean? 00:07:18:25 - 00:07:43:02 Speaker 1 Yeah, Yeah, I am. I'm glad you pointed that out. Actually, that's the kind of thing I was looking for. When I look at your work on YouTube especially, you do definitely present yourself and you speak with more of a conviction and passion than many other channels and vlogs that are out there. In fact, I'm not even sure personally, I'm not sure that I would describe most of your videos as vlogs. 00:07:43:03 - 00:08:11:08 Speaker 1 I think documentaries is much more accurate. Many of the presentations you see are like, You know, what's up, guys? Here's the cool thing I'm doing today. Whereas yours are definitely more definitely almost philosophical around art and creativity. Which brings me to your book, The Meaning in the Making. How did you choose the name the meaning in the making for your book? 00:08:12:00 - 00:08:27:00 Speaker 2 It was just the process of elimination, I think. You know, I'd already started writing it but needed a title and I like I like the idea of having a title earlier on rather than doing it at the end, just because it kind of gave me that sort of top tier focus for what I was writing. 00:08:27:13 - 00:08:32:14 Speaker 1 So you sort of use the title to guide you in the writing of the book too. Is that what you mean? 00:08:32:14 - 00:08:53:17 Speaker 2 Yeah. And I needed like, what's the you know, it's kind of like having the elevator pitch. What is this book about? Why are you bothering to write it? Because I could just have written a bunch of disparate stuff about creativity in general, which is fine, but. But I wanted it. I wanted it to have a progression to it, and I wanted it to lead to a punchline, almost like lead to a like this is the point. 00:08:53:17 - 00:09:17:23 Speaker 2 This is the depth to it. And I wanted to sort of progress through bit of philosophy and then into some practical stuff too, like some harder hitting stuff towards the end about why do we even bother doing this? And having that title gave me that direction and even meant that I wrote a chapter on meaning alone, which I might not have done, and certainly I certainly wouldn't have focused it the way that I did unless I had that title up front. 00:09:18:03 - 00:09:35:27 Speaker 2 So it gave me somewhere to go to, and I knew whether I succeeded or failed based on how well I. I answered the question set up in the title. So having that title earlier on was important and there are few contenders, but, you know, that was the one that kind of that was the one that kind of stuck out. 00:09:35:27 - 00:09:48:20 Speaker 2 And obviously there's the double meaning in it, you know, the meaning and the things that we make, but also the meaning in the making as in that meaning is always in the making is a process to it. It's always ongoing and part of the journey. So that's kind of where that came from. 00:09:49:25 - 00:10:07:28 Speaker 1 So how long had you thought of being a writer? How long had you thought of I'd like to write a book before this actually came to fruition, because I know that you've been working on this since at least 2020, if I'm not mistaken, but I don't know how much further back it went. 00:10:08:18 - 00:10:23:02 Speaker 2 Yeah, I kind of sketched out the idea for the book in 2018, I think, but it was less you just sitting. I was on a retreat in Iceland and sitting in a cabin while there was a storm outside, and I just sketched out a rough outline for the book and then left it in my journal like we often do. 00:10:23:02 - 00:10:39:08 Speaker 2 You know, lots of people do that. But then it was 2020, beginning of 2020, when a publisher approached me, said, Do you have a book you want to do? I said, As it happens, yeah. And then we went into lockdown. So it took me seven months to write it. And luckily, you know, it was at a time where we had to stay home anyway, so it could give me focus. 00:10:39:12 - 00:10:57:20 Speaker 2 That's all I could do, really, was sit at home and write. But it's not. It's not the first book I've written. I actually wrote a book over a decade ago, really, when I left the church about my time in the church and why I wasn't going back and thoughts about the journey I had with working in institutional church in South Africa. 00:10:57:28 - 00:11:15:01 Speaker 2 So it's not that it was a first run at something like this. I knew I could write a book because I because I think a lot of writing about I mean, whether or not it's good or bad is for other people to decide. But I knew I had the self-discipline to write and produce a book because I'd already done it a long time ago. 00:11:15:01 - 00:11:39:10 Speaker 2 So and it's not even that I can sit. I mean, I suppose you're an author if you publish a book, right? But it's not even like I consider myself an author. It's like I know, I know authors like I think of like Stephen King or Neil Gaiman. They're authors. Like, I would never put myself in that category, but I guess it was just about having the discipline to plug away at this thing and put it out there the way that I wanted to put it out and make sure that the message was the one that I intended. 00:11:39:10 - 00:11:42:16 Speaker 2 And yeah, and I'm proud of it. As it stands, it's good. 00:11:43:10 - 00:12:08:16 Speaker 1 Yeah, I actually purchased the I'm more of an auditory learner myself, so I purchased it as an audio book and I've been enjoying listening through it and currently on the chapter called Voice. So and I like how you name the chapters too. It's very it I was not expecting. Well, I don't I don't want that to sound insulting, but I was not prepared for such rich content that I. 00:12:09:00 - 00:12:40:21 Speaker 1 Well, yeah, I don't mean that as, as a full blown compliment. It's interesting that someone like yourself could have continued to make an income, make a lifestyle only with photography and YouTube. And as you just said, you already had experience as a writer, but you had you have so much content already out on why you value art and creativity and encouraging others to pursue it. 00:12:40:21 - 00:12:47:19 Speaker 1 And thoughts behind it. Why also make a book where there are limitations that you were finding with the other mediums? 00:12:48:14 - 00:13:05:12 Speaker 2 Yes, certainly. I mean, there's only so much you can say in a, you know, 10 to 15 minute video on YouTube. If you've got people's attention spans to worry about. I can't tell stories the way I want to tell them at the depth. I want to tell them you just can't hold people for that length of time on a platform like that. 00:13:05:12 - 00:13:27:22 Speaker 2 So yeah, there were always videos, were always dipping my toe into a topic where I felt like there's so much more to say here, but I can't do it in this format. It doesn't work that I guess the book was almost a necessity for me to put things down the way that I wanted to say them without compromise at the depth. 00:13:27:22 - 00:13:40:00 Speaker 2 I wanted to say them and, you know, leave it in the world. If if I die tomorrow, it still exists. You know, that just felt like an important legacy thing to do. So that's kind of where the impulse came from, for sure. 00:13:40:00 - 00:14:06:01 Speaker 1 Okay, I like that. So I wanted to get into it. Since it's you specifically, I wanted most of this talk to be around creativity, since the purpose of this is to basically inspire people to think more creatively, not just in artistic forms, but just in how to build life styles and looking at their own circumstances and asking questions like what? 00:14:06:14 - 00:14:25:22 Speaker 1 What if I added this? Or what if I took this part of my life out? Or what if I changed this? And what would you say to people who claim that they're not creative or artistic, that it's just not in them? 00:14:25:22 - 00:14:34:04 Speaker 2 I don't know. I, I don't know why people say that. Maybe it might be just a limited understanding of what creativity is. 00:14:34:28 - 00:14:45:24 Speaker 1 Well, maybe a better question would be then what? And this again, if you really want to get into this, read Sean's book. But what would you say creativity is then? 00:14:47:03 - 00:15:14:29 Speaker 2 The way I describe it in the book is is creating order out of chaos. If you've got this idea that you know, there is order in chaos, things, things work a particular way. Life itself is order against chaos. And, you know, whether you're a religious person who believes that, you know, ultimately this all ends in Armageddon or Ragnarok and Ultimate Chaos, or you're a scientist who believes in the second law thermodynamics, and it all ends in entropy. 00:15:15:04 - 00:15:40:15 Speaker 2 We move into greater states of disorder over time. I reckon human beings have a drive to order the chaos in the little ways we can throughout our lives, and we all choose different ways to do that. So yeah, I think that that's where that almost kind of built in drive comes from. And to people who say, I'm not a creative person, I pretty sure I could find a way you are. 00:15:41:00 - 00:16:00:02 Speaker 2 I mean, it might be, it might be. Somebody says, Oh, I'm just not really creative because, you know, I can't draw, I can't take photographs. I'm just not really talented like that. And then they go to the kitchen and bake something amazing. I'm like, You are. You just don't think that's creativity as well. But you in your little way, just like me in my little way. 00:16:00:03 - 00:16:19:27 Speaker 2 You're you're you're creating a little bit of order from the chaos and sharing it with other people. I think that is ultimately what creativity is on the top shelf. And I think we all find ways to do that. I would I would suggest that there's forms of mathematics that are creativity, but you probably find lots of people who engage in Mascot. 00:16:19:27 - 00:16:36:17 Speaker 2 Yeah, more mathematical. I'm not very creative, but I bet you there are ways that maths has to get creative at times. I think it's just maybe a small or too small definition of what creativity actually is. It has to be engaged in one of the more traditional arts to call it creativity, but I reckon it's much wider than that. 00:16:38:00 - 00:17:14:01 Speaker 1 Yeah, your description of creativity being bringing order out of chaos. It was the first time that I had heard somebody describe it that way, but it may be the most accurate way I've heard it described. Yeah, I really liked the way you worded that. Another thing that you spoke about in your book, and I'm not going to basically make this the interview version of commentary version of your entire book, partially because I have yet to finish it, but one concept that I had not heard before and I'd love to hear further thoughts about it is specifically with art. 00:17:14:14 - 00:17:43:21 Speaker 1 You had said that art in its best form always represents truth, which intrigued me because I have seen many, many people who claim to be artistically seem to be creating great art, and they are creating things that are not true. They don't reflect reality, they don't reflect true circumstances. They may be a fantasy or worse, they may be a lie. 00:17:43:22 - 00:18:04:14 Speaker 1 They may actually be attempting to deceive the viewer into thinking that something is true or that that they should believe something that the artist believes, regardless of what the viewer believes. Can you go into a little bit more depth about how about what you what's the meaning behind that idea that art must reflect truth in its truest form? 00:18:06:01 - 00:18:30:23 Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, the way I describe it in the book is, is, you know, under this umbrella word logos, which, which is a is a theological word I picked out when studying in seminary to work for the church. And it's this idea that it basically goes back to and again, like I mean, I don't I don't necessarily take scripture literally or anything like that, but I think there's things to take out of these stories from Scripture and that are in our culture. 00:18:31:04 - 00:18:53:09 Speaker 2 There's this idea in Genesis of of God, however you perceive God making everything that we know, creating everything we know by speaking a word. Now, again, like it's it's not I don't think for a second that's meant to be taken literally. It's a it's a word picture. But I like the idea that something true is said and things are made from that. 00:18:53:09 - 00:19:16:25 Speaker 2 And and I like the idea that as as human beings who create, I think the best way to create is to speak truth things and the things that we make. And that can be done very literally or figuratively. But it's it's how how real is what we're saying? How how true is it based on how we perceive life, the universe and everything? 00:19:16:25 - 00:19:48:04 Speaker 2 And that doesn't mean that we have to only make nice things. Sometimes it's describing the darkness. There's a truth in that as well. You know, as much as describing the light, there's there's both ends of it. I'm trying think of a I guess the best example would be because I'm a photographer, I see too many photographers, especially when they start out trying to work out how to make images to post on something like Instagram because they're trying to reverse hack the popularity algorithm. 00:19:48:26 - 00:20:06:24 Speaker 2 They're trying to work out what images can I make and share here that will get me attention. So I'm looking for what else gets attention and I'm going to copy and paste that in my own work as closely as possible in the hopes that I also get attention for that work. I don't think there's a lot of truth in that, and I don't think that's a long term game. 00:20:06:24 - 00:20:24:15 Speaker 2 And I think instead, if they, as photographers said, hang on a minute, instead of doing that, who am I? What's my worldview? What do I see in the world that needs attention? What do I care about? What's my esthetic, not what's popular, what's my esthetic? What do I like? Do I like contrast the lack of contrast, black and white? 00:20:24:15 - 00:20:42:12 Speaker 2 Do I like color? Do I like particular colors in my image? Who something that comes out of me genuinely because it's my esthetic and my message that I believe needs to be represented more in the world. That has a lot more truth to it. And then of course, we can dig deeper and go, Do I want to say something specific in my work? 00:20:42:12 - 00:21:12:27 Speaker 2 Because I've experienced something, because I've seen something, and whether or not everyone else agrees with me, this is genuinely something I felt or experienced. There's a truth to that that we can share with the world as well that I think has more gravitas to it. And I reckon that's a journey every artist needs to take, trying to work out how do we say things that are as true as possible, have as much integrity to them as possible instead of making things because we're hoping it pleases the crowd and but it doesn't have much connection to us or anything. 00:21:12:27 - 00:21:28:15 Speaker 1 We believe that is an excellent answer. That's exactly what I was hoping for. It actually answers the next thing I wanted to ask you, which would be what? What is an example of someone who's not making art? That's truth. So I'm glad that you went right into that as well. 00:21:28:26 - 00:21:29:15 Speaker 2 And no worries. 00:21:30:04 - 00:21:53:23 Speaker 1 I feel a little bit put down as an interviewer. I could just let you go, so let's move forward with talking a bit more about maybe how somebody can build more of this into their life. Like maybe somebody here is listening and they want to do something similar, you know, they want to have more of whatever their creativity and art form. 00:21:53:23 - 00:22:17:01 Speaker 1 Is it be it baking or writing or photography or what, whatnot. With with you being someone who has built a lifestyle around this, what does it look like now? Like what? What does a typical day look like for Sean Tucker, who does filming, photography, writing and whatnot? 00:22:17:01 - 00:22:36:01 Speaker 2 It varies from week to week. I think that's the thing about freelancing is you don't have a standard day. You know, there's a lot of admin around. Everything is normal, you know, answering emails and that kind of thing, planning things that are coming up. There's writing involved in any given week because I do script out the videos that I do. 00:22:36:01 - 00:22:54:19 Speaker 2 I don't I don't read from that script or use it word for word, but I write everything out to make sure that I'm when I do talk about the stuff that it's worth talking about, it's worth 15 minutes of someone's time. So there's writing involved. Filming obviously has to happen at some point, and that might just be me sitting on a sofa. 00:22:54:19 - 00:23:22:15 Speaker 2 It might be me traveling somewhere to go and film with somebody else. So that depends and involves some travel too. Obviously editing will take a few days, so that sort of builds into a two week cycle for me as well, and then planning to get out and take my own images as well to go into the book. So depending on the weather and what's going on and where I want to be, I'm keeping an eye on that and would set aside whole days to go and travel somewhere and and create a creative set of images as well. 00:23:23:13 - 00:23:39:28 Speaker 2 And then, you know, things like this doing interviews or going and doing talks is also kind of the promotional side of things as well that I've got to keep in mind, that I'm not just talking to my own audience, but I'm also talking to other people and their audiences too, to make them aware of, you know, the book and the channel as well. 00:23:39:28 - 00:23:57:06 Speaker 2 I think marketing comes into to anything like this as well. So in the mix of all those things, that's kind of a normal day. But it's again like that, that some of those things happen on one day and some of them happen on other days. It just depends kind of which part of that roughly two week cycle is going on. 00:23:58:08 - 00:24:14:05 Speaker 1 Yeah, I've, I've experienced that with freelancing as well. And for me I've also had days where it almost feels like I wasn't doing anything or like I didn't make an appropriate amount of progress. Have you experienced that? 00:24:14:05 - 00:24:15:13 Speaker 2 Oh yeah, always. I mean. 00:24:15:21 - 00:24:19:29 Speaker 1 Okay, good. I was really scared that you were going to say no. I feel like I make progress every day. And you're a freak for. 00:24:20:12 - 00:24:36:01 Speaker 2 No, no. I mean, yeah. I mean, I always make some progress every day, but I don't make as much as I'd like. I mean, it's just sometimes you just come up against things or things that happen as easily as you. You would have hope they did. And you need to spend more time on something. And sometimes things work faster than you thought. 00:24:36:01 - 00:24:51:02 Speaker 2 And it it goes really smoothly. Yeah, there's a lot of like adaptation that has to go on. I think I'm very careful to leave too much time for every task so that it's got time to go badly and I can recover. So I try and pad things out a bit. 00:24:51:20 - 00:24:55:18 Speaker 1 That's a good tip right there. Yeah. Plan for more time than than it should take. 00:24:56:04 - 00:25:17:02 Speaker 2 Yeah. And I think that goes for not taking on too much. When I, when I began my YouTube channel, I only promised my audience one video a month. It still sits in my channel trailer. I only will do one video a month. And the reason for that was I was never going to get caught in the trap of like some of my fellow YouTubers who who do two videos a week or something. 00:25:17:02 - 00:25:32:27 Speaker 2 I mean, I just I don't have to interesting things every week to say. I just don't and I don't want to stretch a little bit of content, a long way to fill a YouTube schedule. So I made the deal with myself that I would do less and I'd do it better rather than do more and have to stretch it thinly. 00:25:33:08 - 00:25:52:09 Speaker 2 And that just meant that I all I mean, there is no month that I don't have the time to produce at least one video. So that was a no excuse schedule to give myself and since then I've pretty much posted two videos every month, but I don't promise that that's so I can I can duck out of that if I feel like it or need to give something else time. 00:25:52:09 - 00:25:54:20 Speaker 2 But having that wiggle room is very important. 00:25:55:16 - 00:26:01:25 Speaker 1 Do you think that's allowed you to stay more motivated to continue creating them to? 00:26:01:25 - 00:26:27:25 Speaker 2 It's just made me feel more in control of it that I'm not compromising it, which I think yeah, does then link to motivation. I think if I felt like I was watering everything down, I'd become less proud of it over time and then would feel less motivated to engage with it. But, you know, feeling like everything I put out there, by and large, I mean there's better videos and worse videos in my mind, but by and large I'm happy with the quality it that keeps me motivated to keep wanting to do it because I'm proud of the work. 00:26:28:10 - 00:26:36:07 Speaker 2 But I think if I did stretch it, then the I wouldn't be as proud of the work and then I would struggle to keep wanting to carry on. Making the stuff and making a record. 00:26:36:24 - 00:26:50:29 Speaker 1 At this point is all of the work that you do photography, filming and writing and whatnot for your your business, or do you have some projects that you do that are purposely never to be seen? 00:26:51:26 - 00:27:17:23 Speaker 2 I take a lot of images no one sees for sure, but it's more they're less projects and they're more expensive and teach me things because I think it's really important to be experimenting and pushing yourself behind the scenes and trying out new things. So it's developing me as an artist and as a person, and it's not work that I'm proud enough to share with the world, although I do share a lot, but it's more self-development stuff. 00:27:17:23 - 00:27:36:12 Speaker 2 So there is that. I am working on a couple of photography projects that no one's seen, but the reason for that is to release it in a year or two or three when it's when it's reached a volume and I can actually release as an entire piece of work. But that is destined to become something. It's not to hide it from everybody forever. 00:27:37:02 - 00:28:02:02 Speaker 1 Well, maybe this would be a better question then, because I'm sure there's days where you don't have the motivation. I mean, that happens to everybody, right? Mm hmm. And I know this is in your book as well. And feel free to refer back to it your advice or your own experience in in how to re inspire yourself or how to rekindle a creativity, or at least to not lose the motivation to be creative. 00:28:03:11 - 00:28:26:11 Speaker 2 So you're asking about inspiration, particularly the way I talk about that in the book is to break the word down. You know, inspiration comes from the same place our word respiration comes from. It's about breathing. That's where it comes from. And it was this idea of being breathed into inspired inspiration. And it was it's obviously an ancient concept. 00:28:26:11 - 00:28:49:11 Speaker 2 It's just being breathed into by the divine or by the muses or whatever. And I think making space to draw in that creative breath is really, really important. So I examples I use in the book, you know, just go for a walk is is a great way to get back some inspiration. Go and read a book, take some time out, do something completely different. 00:28:49:24 - 00:29:12:24 Speaker 2 Because I have a theory that when we're struggling for ideas, we're often sitting there racking our brains to try and force an idea to come out. And we've tried to force it down the same conscious channel and we're hitting a wall. And it's like if we if we have any problem in our daily life, you know, we sit there and we can't we can't work it out, we can't understand it, and nothing's happening. 00:29:12:24 - 00:29:36:21 Speaker 2 And you might find that sometimes you just give up because you're so frustrated and then you go on a walk and you're not thinking about it, and then suddenly the answer's there. I think that is when you turn off your conscious mind and let your subconscious mind go to work. Because I think a subconscious mind is much more creative and gets to move in much more subtle and interesting ways and and shutting down our conscious. 00:29:36:24 - 00:29:56:08 Speaker 2 It's why we get our best creative ideas when we're in the shower because we're not really thinking about it. It just appears because our subconscious minds at work. So it's how do we create that, what I call generative mental space without agenda. If you go on a walk and you say, I'm going on a walk to get ideas, you're still in your conscious mind and you're trying to force something and you won't get one. 00:29:56:19 - 00:30:15:09 Speaker 2 But if you do regularly create space for yourself, I take a daily walk of at least an hour and I don't go to get ideas. I go because I know it's good for me to take that mental space myself. But by doing that, that's often where ideas just appear out of out of habit and practice for creating that space. 00:30:15:09 - 00:30:35:28 Speaker 2 And that's how I try and keep myself kind of topped up with ideas. And that inspiration is giving that space to be breathe in, to have a view that, I mean, you might view it spiritually or mentally or whatever, but I like the picture of, of creating that space to be breathed into it. And the other way is to, to, you know, take in a lot of other people's art. 00:30:36:11 - 00:31:01:15 Speaker 2 It doesn't have to be as a photographer that I only look at photographers, although I obviously do. But it's also, you know, watching films and learning from cinematographer and reading books and and poetry or going to galleries and looking at painters, whatever it is, take in a lot of other people's art. And I think inspiration can sort of come across by osmosis as you take in what other people have made and and take cues from that as well as to why did they make this? 00:31:01:15 - 00:31:17:11 Speaker 2 Why do I like this? What is it about this esthetic that I like that kind of starts to feed in? I mean, when I was writing the book, I would take regular breaks when I was kind of stuck not knowing how to proceed with the next piece of the chapter or whatever. I go read a book, but I wouldn't read a book on creativity. 00:31:17:11 - 00:31:37:16 Speaker 2 I'd read something random, like a historical fiction novel or something. And I just found that by reading someone else's work and turning down my conscious mind, that was trying to force that answer through ideas would start to surface. So yeah, I find that's a great way to use time. But again, you can't just go, Oh jeez, I really need an idea. 00:31:37:16 - 00:31:47:17 Speaker 2 I'm going on a walk to get one. I don't think that's how it works. You have to make a regular practice of making that space for yourself without agenda so that you've. You're regularly full of ideas. 00:31:48:03 - 00:32:09:08 Speaker 1 It really intrigued me that you so expressly said that the point of taking the walk isn't to get ideas. And it really got me thinking like, Oh, because I've personally, I've been stuck in a point where I'm trying to solve problems, trying to think of ideas by figuratively sitting there and hitting myself on the forehead saying, You've got to solve the problem, you've got to solve the problem. 00:32:09:28 - 00:32:34:26 Speaker 1 And I had you know, I've heard plenty of people say things like, you know, you got to relax. You've got to let the ideas come to you, take a walk. But it's always, at least for me, most of that has been presented as like that is how you are going to get the ideas as in like go out where it's quiet so that you can think about how to solve the problem and proposing proposing it is almost the reverse of that. 00:32:34:26 - 00:32:58:23 Speaker 1 Like, no, you have to let, as you say, the unconscious part of your mind work and it only works in the void. It only works in the silence and in the piece. And so that that really got me thinking. And I was fortunate to be listening to that portion of your book In the Woods in a tent. So I was like, Oh, I'm going to just go out and walk in the fog in the trees. 00:32:58:23 - 00:32:59:03 Speaker 1 Now. 00:33:00:04 - 00:33:20:08 Speaker 2 I think that I think that shift in mental space is important because if you if you are sitting at home wracking your brain for an idea and then you go on a walk, wracking your brain for an idea, how's that really different? I mean, the context is different. That's nice. And maybe in that peaceful space, you know, you manage to find those ideas, but I don't think there's any promise in that. 00:33:20:08 - 00:33:25:16 Speaker 2 I think anyone who says to you, if you go on a walk, you'll definitely get an idea when you need one is probably lying to you. 00:33:25:16 - 00:33:27:22 Speaker 1 You still put the same pressure on yourself. 00:33:27:22 - 00:33:49:25 Speaker 2 Exactly. You're not. You just changing the context. You put your pressure on yourself. And instead of saying I think what they're hoping happens, which sometimes does, is by going on a walk, you do turn your conscious mind down because something takes your attention. But I would suggest it's better to regularly be doing that and getting into the habit of creating that mental space for yourself so that you practice. 00:33:49:25 - 00:34:00:12 Speaker 2 Is that disconnecting of your conscious mind and you're always full of ideas instead of you only go when you need one, as if it's a slot machine. I don't think that's how it works. 00:34:01:05 - 00:34:23:28 Speaker 1 I like that. So this segways nicely into the next thing I wanted to talk to you about. I've been very clear about the fact that I'm not hosting this podcast and recording these interviews because I view myself as any sort of authority on the topic. I'm doing it because I'm trying to edify myself. I want to talk to these people who have insight like what you have. 00:34:24:10 - 00:34:52:22 Speaker 1 So for people like me, one question that often comes up when I hear advice like this, like take walks regularly, take the pressure off, is there's a there's a screaming voice that says, but you still have to get stuff done. You still have to be productive. So it's finding that balance is is a challenge of being productive while not losing creativity, while not failing in your productivity as well. 00:34:54:01 - 00:35:21:01 Speaker 1 So can we can we talk about that a bit too? And I don't. So this is not a question of how would you suggest someone stay creative, nor is it a question of do you have any productivity advice? It's how do you how have you found to best keep your creativity up while keeping productivity in mind? Is there a way that those can be kind of married or are they just two things that have to be addressed separately? 00:35:21:01 - 00:35:22:27 Speaker 1 I'm hoping that they don't. 00:35:23:20 - 00:35:44:10 Speaker 2 I think it's about balance, isn't it? And that balance is very specific to your personality. I mean, I'll say for me, my personality, I'm very hard on myself and I'm a perfectionist. So I struggle to make the space for myself. That's my struggle on the productive side. I don't struggle with that. I bully myself and I know that. 00:35:44:10 - 00:36:03:06 Speaker 2 So I need to bring the balance on the other side of that and keep making the space for myself, because I know that's where the balance needs to be. A lazier personality type, for example, or someone who's avoidant might be going, well, yeah, I was told once that I should just go and go on long walks and take space myself and navel gaze, and that's how I want to be creative. 00:36:03:06 - 00:36:23:17 Speaker 2 And they never make anything. Their particular balance needs to come on the other end. They need to start getting more disciplined and set time to create and make sure that they're actually producing work and not just thinking about it. I think it to give to give that works for everybody is impossible. You have to work out where your lack of balance is and which side of that fence you fall on. 00:36:23:26 - 00:36:43:20 Speaker 2 I mean, I have friends who make things that are very, very different to me. They do struggle with the Oh no, I need to stop sitting and thinking about things and having ideas and actually start to put some of these things into practice. They have the opposite problem to me. But it's about making sure that on both ends of that you are being responsible and how much that balance is. 00:36:43:20 - 00:36:50:23 Speaker 2 I can't tell you, you know, how many hours you need to do one thing or another thing. You have to find what balance works for you. But finding that balance is the important thing. 00:36:51:02 - 00:37:16:26 Speaker 1 That's a very good answer. It sounds like there's a connection that you see between creativity and productivity. Like you said, it's a balance. But I would I would almost see you saying that one feeds the other, too. And if you only focus on one, then that side isn't being fed. Like if you're making space to be more creative and only doing that, then you're never going to be productive. 00:37:16:26 - 00:37:21:16 Speaker 1 But if you're only focusing on productivity, you'll never be inspired to be creative. 00:37:22:08 - 00:37:40:14 Speaker 2 Well, I mean, I would put creativity and productivity. I mean, when I'm being productive, I'm making things. So for me, those two are synonymous. But I think I think what you're saying is like getting inspired and then actually making the work or trying to find the ideas and actually going through and making the creative work that you're doing, It's it's all part of a whole for me. 00:37:41:00 - 00:37:44:01 Speaker 2 It's just making sure that you've got all the pieces in place. So you. 00:37:44:01 - 00:37:45:16 Speaker 1 Can do them as two separate. 00:37:45:20 - 00:37:58:07 Speaker 2 Now. Because, I mean, well, in my case, when you say productivity, that would be me making a video, which is one of the most creative things I do. So it's not separate to creativity at all. When I'm being productive, it is creativity. 00:37:59:09 - 00:38:01:13 Speaker 1 Hmm. That's actually intriguing me. 00:38:01:22 - 00:38:09:19 Speaker 2 Well, I'm an optimistic so so. So if an artist is being productive, how is that not them being creative they're making? 00:38:09:19 - 00:38:10:10 Speaker 1 That's a good point. 00:38:10:27 - 00:38:27:22 Speaker 2 Right? So for me that this anonymous, they're the same thing as if an artist is being productive, that's when they're making things. If they are out of ideas, maybe they need to go off and think and get inspired again and come back to being productive, slash creative in tangible sense. You know, in a real sense. 00:38:28:04 - 00:38:31:09 Speaker 1 I wonder where I got that idea then that. 00:38:31:14 - 00:38:40:12 Speaker 2 So explain what you mean. So when you think when you say productivity and creativity as separate, what do you mean by that? 00:38:40:12 - 00:39:12:04 Speaker 1 Well, in my mind, I may have an idea to say start a podcast about interviewing people like yourself and the ideas and the questions that I'd like to have answered that come to mind. That's the creativity part, the like imagining what I would like to hear when listening back to those podcasts. Mm hmm. The productivity portion is in my mind. 00:39:12:04 - 00:39:38:23 Speaker 1 It's the I'm sitting down and I'm editing and I'm emailing people saying, Hey, would you like to be a guest? And for me, I just and maybe I have the wrong view of this. I'm very open to that, but I haven't viewed that as being creative. I've viewed that as like managing the task. Like, maybe. 00:39:39:15 - 00:39:41:27 Speaker 2 We'll go skinny for flipping your interview. I'm interested in this. 00:39:41:27 - 00:39:45:08 Speaker 1 So so I'm actually interested in the way you're flipping the interview. So go right. 00:39:45:12 - 00:40:09:26 Speaker 2 Yeah, right, right. So. So when you're doing this podcast now and you're asking me questions, you don't feel like we're creating something together. This is productivity now, because for me, this is creativity too. And you're sitting later and you're editing this interview and you're deciding which portions to use and which portions not, and you're trying to make sure that it all makes sense and you're uploading it and you're designing your thumbnail, that's not creativity for you, that's productivity. 00:40:10:10 - 00:40:10:25 Speaker 2 Is that right? 00:40:12:11 - 00:40:15:20 Speaker 1 Well, I'm saying that's where my mind has been on it. 00:40:16:10 - 00:40:19:11 Speaker 2 If you bring it out in the cold light of day, how does that feel to you? 00:40:19:22 - 00:40:29:11 Speaker 1 Well, right now it feels a little revealing. It makes me feel a little vulnerable. Wasn't quite expecting that to happen on this interview. 00:40:31:03 - 00:40:46:07 Speaker 2 Now, I'm just interested what you think of I mean, a lot of this is semantics. You know, it's just it's just labels. We apply to things, but I think sometimes it betrays how we feel about something. And I think a lot of us feel like creativity is fun, but productivity is work. 00:40:46:07 - 00:40:59:28 Speaker 1 That's actually, I think what I was going to try to next answer your question was, I guess when I if I feel like I'm enjoying something, then it must be creative. And when it's when it's difficult, it must be productive. 00:41:00:25 - 00:41:23:22 Speaker 2 That's interesting, isn't it? Because I, I, I find a lot of the creative things I make hard work, but I find a lot of creative things I do as well. Equally a lot of fun, but they're all creative and they're all productive. Because I'm an artist, it's my job to that stuff, but I don't I don't draw a line and and label each side because it's all creativity. 00:41:23:22 - 00:41:42:22 Speaker 2 So for example, when I'm shooting a video, I hate sitting in front of a camera and talking. I don't I don't enjoy it. But that's part of the creative process for me. It's where I get to decide intonation or inflection I use in a particular line that is trying to communicate something. So even though I know it's my job, I have to do it. 00:41:43:10 - 00:42:02:12 Speaker 2 Doing that is creativity. It's not productivity. When I edited, that's, you know, it feels like a slog sometimes. So you might, from your point of view, say, well, that's productivity. But I'm also aware that bringing in the music and timing the cuts and choosing the B-roll and which sections I use to speak with, I'm making something in that process. 00:42:02:12 - 00:42:10:17 Speaker 2 I couldn't be more creative in that quote unquote productivity. It's it's one in the same for me. 00:42:10:17 - 00:42:31:03 Speaker 1 But now you've got me thinking and rethinking a lot of things, too, because I've never really thought of it. I mean, I'll just put this out there as a because I do photography. I think I already told you that my main income right now is wedding photography. Mm hmm. And people have said, you know, oh, you're so artistic, you're creative. 00:42:31:03 - 00:42:56:15 Speaker 1 And I've disagreed with them and said, I have chosen the most mechanical, tangible, mathematical form of of art that I can think of. I mean, I create images by calculating correct correct numbers for exposures and analyzing light like the way I the way I take pictures is very analytical, and I do find a huge amount of satisfaction in it. 00:42:57:09 - 00:43:05:02 Speaker 1 But I just I just didn't think of it as artistic because of how mechanical it was. 00:43:05:21 - 00:43:26:09 Speaker 2 But you're just you're just listing the things that are technical side of the work that you do as a creative person. But you also have to choose the light. You also have to read moments at a wedding and work out what you want to capture and how you want to capture it. And when you're sequencing the images that you're going to hand over the client to putting them together in a book, you're putting them together in a way that makes a story. 00:43:26:09 - 00:43:40:26 Speaker 2 Yes, it involves choosing shutter speed and aperture and ISO as you go and all all the technical side that goes with photography. But I don't think you can claim there's not a ton of creativity that has to go into it if you do a good job, right? 00:43:42:14 - 00:44:03:02 Speaker 1 I do. I'm not going to argue that. Like I said, you're making me rethink some things here. Let me ask you this. Would you say that okay, here's a broad question. Would you say that as human beings, is there a way to have any sort of productivity that's not creative? Is there a pure form of productivity? 00:44:03:06 - 00:44:26:07 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, I have a I have a category in my head productivity, not creativity, but it's limited to things like answering emails and, you know, logging accounts on a spreadsheet and and doing taxes and those kind of things. That for me is not very creative. It's, it's, it's administrative work I have to do, and that's productivity. I have to do it, I have to answer emails and all that stuff. 00:44:26:07 - 00:44:45:17 Speaker 2 But, but that's not part of the art that I put out into the world. So that's that's where productivity is. And again, like, you know, we all apply words, these things in our categories are different. But for me that's where mindsets and that's not to say that like with the, with the work that I create, I don't count that as me being productive. 00:44:45:27 - 00:44:58:29 Speaker 2 It is, but it's also very creative. If I go out and shoot a bunch of images and put them in a book and try sell that book, that's me creating something, but it's just me being productive as an artist. Um. 00:44:59:12 - 00:45:05:11 Speaker 1 Okay. So do you do you think there's a way to be purely creative while not being concerned with productivity? 00:45:05:22 - 00:45:24:03 Speaker 2 It's absolutely conservative. Yeah, that would be the days I give myself permission to go out and just take images that I know won't go into a book, but I'm just trying something new. That's me being very creative but not productive. Those images aren't going towards a body of work that I need to show the world or make any money off. 00:45:24:03 - 00:45:31:14 Speaker 2 It's just for me being purely creative to learn something new so that I would say yes. Is creativity not productivity? 00:45:33:11 - 00:45:46:01 Speaker 1 Well, doggone it, Sean, Now I'm here just like thinking and not paying attention to my questions that are supposed to. I love it. No, I wasn't. And not expecting the interview to flip. 00:45:46:01 - 00:45:47:15 Speaker 2 But that's. Sorry. 00:45:48:02 - 00:45:53:25 Speaker 1 No, don't apologize for it. I think that this is what I'm going to be enjoying listening back on more than once. 00:45:54:15 - 00:46:12:15 Speaker 2 But I think I think what you're the way you're thinking, I think, is the way a lot of people think. It's you're not alone. I think a lot of people do that. But when you divide up your life in such neat categories and you're also taking things out of the creativity box to put them in the productivity, I think it can rob the joy of it for you in some way. 00:46:13:02 - 00:46:37:16 Speaker 2 Like I think a lot of people might listen to this and be surprised that as a wedding photographer, you don't allow yourself to consider that creative work when I'm sure that your clients think of it as creative work. But for some reason it's been recategorized for you. And maybe if you put it back and go, Hey, this is me being productive because it's my job, but it's full of creativity. 00:46:37:16 - 00:46:59:26 Speaker 2 It is only creativity in doing. Yes, it involves some technical aspects, but I'm making work that goes into someone's wedding album that sits on their shelf that they pull down and show family members because you've told their story and they get to cry and go, This was such an amazing day and we're celebrating a relationship that is incredibly creative work, not just a technical productivity exercise. 00:46:59:26 - 00:47:28:18 Speaker 1 Well, I do have a habit of seeing things a little bit more black and white than they should be. And, you know, there really is more of a when looking at your your your personhood, your things like not just art and creativity and productivity, your your emotional state, your bodily state, everything is integrated. And maybe productivity and creativity is should be viewed that way too. 00:47:28:18 - 00:47:53:26 Speaker 1 Well, that got deep. Boy, I've only got you for a little bit longer, Shawn. So I'm going to ask you another question so that I can let you go. And my head is going to keep spinning on the things you've told me, but wow. Okay. Well, I'm so stuck now because I'm just like, thinking about this and I'm now I'm not distracted about it. 00:47:54:22 - 00:48:20:26 Speaker 1 I'm going to try to I'm going to try to bring it back, though. So in incoming to the conclusion of this episode here, regarding your your views on creativity in art and productivity and everything that we've talked about, what is a message that you wish that everyone on Earth would get in them every day? And you can take a minute for that one if you need. 00:48:21:04 - 00:48:55:28 Speaker 2 I mean, that's a massive question. It is. I it changes all the time. I mean, there's a lot of different things I could say to that. I guess one might be that I wish that people would understand that who they are is their responsibility that comes from their choices. And they have more agency than they realize. Like I understand the world's heart on all of this, and lots of things happen to us on a fault that shape us. 00:48:57:09 - 00:49:17:08 Speaker 2 But I've just I've met so many people who have been through incredibly difficult stuff that they chose not to let them shape in bad ways, but chose to use it in good ways. And as the chapter in the in the book where I talk about embracing your shadows, the shadows you pass through and folding them into your story, because shadows help us tell a better story in an image. 00:49:17:08 - 00:49:39:00 Speaker 2 If it was if the frame was just light, it would just be a white piece of paper. You need the shadows to shape the light in photography and in our stories. And I feel like. I feel like to many people, it's become a very it's become almost a trendy thing these days to to victimize yourself and act like life happens to you. 00:49:39:20 - 00:50:01:16 Speaker 2 And I think it turns us into people who don't make enough of who we are and don't give much back because we don't take responsibility for who we are and building ourselves and shaping ourselves so that you have you don't know how many years to work on yourself as a project to try and make yourself into the best version of yourself that you can be with. 00:50:01:16 - 00:50:34:10 Speaker 2 With a thousand brave decisions. One after another, all of which will be uncomfortable. If you don't take that journey for yourself, you'll be much less than you could have been. And and to many of us, I think, sit back and act like life is happening to us and we could do nothing else. Taking more personal responsibility for who we are and working on ourselves as a project, I think, is that that self-development stuff, strapping on more self awareness about ourselves is something I've got a big be in my bonnet about these days, so I reckon that's that's probably quite a big one. 00:50:35:10 - 00:51:03:18 Speaker 1 I think that is a fantastic answer to that question. I appreciate you taking on the challenge of, taking such a broad question and not just being like, That one's too hard. Wow. Well, I, I know I've got a few more minutes with you, but honestly, I feel like I'm I'm spitting now. My gosh, Are you are you always this much of a challenge to interview and things like this? 00:51:04:24 - 00:51:21:15 Speaker 1 Probably good for you. I think it's I think it's a good quality to. Well, this is this has been excellent. Shaun, I really, really appreciate you taking the time to speak with me, especially because this is a new show. I consider it a great favor from you. 00:51:21:23 - 00:51:23:15 Speaker 2 No worries, ma'am. Thanks for having me. 00:51:24:07 - 00:51:44:18 Speaker 1 Well, thank you, listeners, for tuning into this episode of the podcast to learn more about Shaun Tucker, visit his website. Shaun Tucker Dot Photography. You can also purchase his book The Meaning in the Making at his site as either a printed book or, an audio book. And if you're at all interested in having more creativity in your life, this is very much worth the read. 00:51:45:06 - 00:52:03:27 Speaker 1 You can also find Shaun on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and I, of course, highly recommend exploring his YouTube videos. Thank you for listening and please join me for the next story in the Creative Success Podcast.