0:11

You. And listening to the Cycling

0:13

Podcast. Below

0:22

adjoining New on February the Sick: After

0:24

a weekend when no sooner had mature

0:26

fund the pool claimed his six Cyclocross

0:28

World title than he was questioning his

0:30

own future in the discipline musing. I

0:32

wonder if it's worth it's have beer

0:35

poured over you in every race. A

0:37

perfectly natural reaction I would suggest for

0:39

someone born in the land that gave

0:41

the world Heineken, I'm still on Grolsch.

0:43

my name is Diane for a ban

0:45

on the host of a subset of

0:47

the second podcasting which we will blow

0:49

the froth of events from Tomboy in

0:52

Chechnya. Land of high grade A

0:54

Pivo of course. And wash that all

0:56

down with everything else has been brewing

0:58

in the world of cycling. In the

1:00

last week from the Saudi desert, the

1:03

barricaded in picketed Farm Wright's of the

1:05

God did optimal in France join me

1:07

in the bar today, as he's often

1:09

done and assorted hostelries in the past.

1:11

As to be said is that discerning

1:13

consumer of indigenous liquid refreshment Brian I

1:16

got. A Bruin, The que

1:18

haya. yeah I'm really well. I'm really why I

1:20

just when you mentioned the day don't like bloody

1:22

hell it as I actually already. You.

1:25

Know. Moving. Fast to was

1:27

the interesting part of the year. I don't

1:29

like winter the hey January, I don't particularly

1:31

like December. But. As I february when not

1:33

in to get back into the an alley. We're

1:36

going to get cantankerous know I got

1:38

today And Brian your see, You've been

1:40

on the polka so frequently now your

1:42

see the some proceeds you your reputation

1:44

precedes. you may would be remiss of

1:47

me nuts her mind the listeners every

1:49

now and again. you are former press

1:51

officer from various and high flying teams,

1:53

am of yesteryear Csc, Team Sky and

1:55

your team manager, Leopard Track and so

1:58

on and so on and now. Im

2:00

winemaker, art dealer

2:03

renaissance Man podcast.

2:07

As well my wife said on listen to

2:09

the south. Spacetime.

2:11

It's. Towns.

2:14

In Mr. Ripley kind of fig us am. Also

2:16

join he is is the man

2:18

who are web I don't think

2:20

over indulges. Ah. Isn't.

2:23

A lot of he's ever

2:25

infringe violated the the him

2:27

to very strict now. When

2:30

they call a anti but I chaired

2:33

off the anti. Drone.

2:35

Could law has been

2:37

passed or reinforced in

2:39

mediocre am recently to

2:41

combat what they call.

2:44

Into. This mode access or. Am

2:46

basically. People. Going to be

2:49

okay to drink a lot about how Adam

2:51

Eve every friends that m Rapace is but

2:53

for the he reside a mediocre in so

2:55

yet. Rob how you wonder

2:57

why with only not will be gone? From

2:59

on teach steal an ice and then I

3:01

had lost join me at he saw occurrence

3:04

indigenous and set of a talented Mr. Written

3:06

and com server amps. Well yeah and not

3:08

just not into that. Thanks I'm on the

3:10

other coast and a little more tranquil. Polite

3:12

Brian I'm not a fan of winter and

3:14

I'm waiting for it to disappear rather quickly.

3:17

He. Refrains: he lays to put call daniels

3:19

him as made me made me slightly self

3:22

conscious of it as I didn't get some

3:24

kind of memory and I don't own as

3:26

he lay either Salem we thought about that

3:28

the year and I am for doing some

3:31

cycling podcast. Merchandising.

3:33

You know how the Italian journalists our friends at

3:35

to to be cheap? Who. Are seniors

3:37

in a long ways. They do have

3:39

like this. like this journalist at high

3:41

magazines shootings it as a smoker like

3:43

I'm Just like every single you know.

3:46

And yeah I'll just put it out

3:48

that the listeners I think that will

3:50

be very valuable contribution to them sagging

3:53

pocket universe, a journalist vest like a

3:55

multi use of a. year

3:57

you can always in a sort of vast

3:59

with as many people pockets as a sort

4:01

of Janisavio team's jersey has sponsors. I

4:04

like it even more now. Pockets

4:06

for, they look, they're pockets for cartridges

4:08

I think. They are kind of shooting

4:10

vests. Why this became a sort of

4:12

Doryga uniform of Italian journalist at the

4:14

Giro d'Italia? I don't know. Maybe

4:17

that's a subject for a kilometre zero in the Giro

4:19

d'Italia this year. Right, of course you'll be joining us

4:21

at the Giro. You will

4:24

be, well you'll be entering preparation mode

4:26

as will I soon. Looking

4:30

forward to that, Brian? Looking forward to that Giro. Very much

4:32

so. I'm very much so. I

4:35

almost feel like I'm sort

4:37

of a stable part of the cycling podcast Giro

4:40

coverage and it feels,

4:43

I mean it's my favourite bike race

4:45

really. It's my favourite race to travel in

4:47

with my favourite travel

4:50

companion, co-driver and

4:54

yeah, the Giro Vagando has become a

4:56

very important part of my yearly

4:58

circle. That and making

5:01

wine. Don't get too comfortable. No, I'm, me. Don't

5:03

get too comfortable, Brian. Were you comfortable? You were

5:05

the one thought. Any one of us. Pretty cool.

5:08

Any one of us is only two bad podcasts from the sack. You'll

5:10

be noted. Well they'll be quite

5:12

empty in the car then. Brian,

5:17

Rob, it is that time of

5:19

the week when we round up the

5:21

week's news. It is the week's news

5:24

roundup. We may as

5:26

well finish what we started in the intro of the

5:28

episode and tell you about the cycling

5:30

across the world championships in. Rob, did we

5:33

establish that it was Taboor or Taboor? Taboor

5:35

I think. As per our good

5:37

friend Renard last week. They

5:41

took place other than Taboor in Checha

5:43

at the weekend. We of course previewed

5:45

them last week. Rob, I think we

5:48

and Renard, Renard Schoether that

5:50

is from Sportsa, also accurately

5:52

predicted the outcome. We said

5:54

that Fem van Emple would win the women's

5:56

race and she did convincingly. Had a Lucinda

5:58

Brant and Pop Peterseer. We

6:00

also said that MVDP would absolutely cakewalk

6:02

the men's race, which he did, Rob

6:05

Bryan, ahead of Joris

6:08

Nievenhaus and Michael Van Turenhout.

6:10

It was his sixth senior

6:12

cross rainbow journey, meaning he's

6:15

now just one away from

6:17

Eddic de Vlamink's record of

6:20

seven. But is that

6:22

where it also all ends? Because as already

6:24

alluded to, Mathieu van der Poel did suggest

6:26

that he may at least take a gap

6:28

year from cross if

6:30

not completely jack it in.

6:34

He sort of said, well, his only motivation

6:37

to start training next year would

6:39

be to equal de Vlamink's record.

6:44

And at the same

6:46

time, he doesn't just want to ride the

6:48

world. If he is going to do cross,

6:50

he would have to do the whole season. It

6:52

sounds as though he's leaning towards

6:55

not doing cross next year chaps.

6:57

But we'll probably make

7:00

an appearance at some point again

7:02

in the future. I would say keep your eyes on

7:04

the World Cup and what happens with that. They haven't

7:06

announced that yet. There is talk of it becoming a

7:08

two month affair, sort of December and January. Maybe that

7:10

might be a little bit better for somebody to decide

7:13

they were going to do that season rather than the

7:15

other season that starts in October and finishes in February.

7:19

We should also tell you that Zoe Baxter was the winner of the

7:22

women's under 23 title. No

7:24

big surprise there. I don't think. And

7:26

Thibaut Del Grosso, a Dutchman with an

7:28

Italian name, won the under 23 crown.

7:32

Finally from Checha, Tabo, was

7:34

of course, Lotharafa Hdenek Stiebaugh, a

7:36

38 year old three

7:39

time cyclo cross world champion. Also

7:41

winner of stages in the

7:43

Tour de France and the Huerta Espana. He

7:45

also won a Strade Bianche, On loop, head

7:47

news blood and an E3 Harobeka. What's the

7:49

official name Rob? Which

7:52

one? Hdreepres, Harobeka, E3 Staxel

7:54

Bank, blah blah blah. The

7:57

race of this crazy one. That one, yes. Yes,

8:00

that's how it will henceforth be known. Steve

8:02

Einzendenten finished 31st in the men's

8:04

race, seven minutes and one second

8:06

down. More importantly, it was a

8:09

sort of joyous send-off, wasn't it?

8:11

I think there were a few

8:13

tears. Now to the

8:15

road, lots catch up on there. The

8:17

ASO-backed Alula Tour took place in Saudi

8:19

Arabia, just bookmark ASO and Saudi Arabia

8:21

for something we may discuss in a

8:23

minute. Race consisted of five stages.

8:26

They were won by Kasper van Oden, the

8:28

Surin Vadinskull, van

8:31

Oden again, Tim Merlea and Simon

8:33

Yates, Yates who with that victory

8:35

on the last day, on the

8:37

Queen stage, in fact, to the

8:39

sky views of Harat, Uwayarid. Also

8:45

took the GC, huge result

8:47

for the team's Kobaka Alula, also

8:50

sponsor the race. Second overall was

8:52

the Belgian, Soudal Quickstep

8:54

sensation, William Junior Le Cerf,

8:58

Le Cerf, perfectly bilingual

9:00

apparently, William Junior Le Cerf, so

9:02

I can, I am allowed

9:04

to say it and pronounce it in French, with

9:06

a French accent, Rob, I think. More

9:09

on him later. Third

9:11

was UAE's Finn Fischer

9:13

Black. From

9:16

the New World, I should also add that

9:18

we all took a lot more, in a

9:20

lot more detail about these races. The

9:23

road racing that took place at the weekend

9:26

and last week, later in the episode. From

9:29

the New World pro cycling to the

9:31

Old World, specifically the Etwell de Besage,

9:33

a race that's wobbled, teetered, struggled financially

9:36

over the last few years and was

9:38

rocked further to the tune

9:40

of hundreds of thousands of euros, the organisers

9:42

said, by the cancellation of stage one due

9:44

to French farmers' strikes and more

9:46

industrial action. Thereafter

9:48

stages were won by Axel

9:50

Lorance, Mads Pedersen, Samuel Le

9:53

Roux, surprising that one

9:55

from a rider on a comfy

9:57

division team, Van Rysville. and

10:00

the last stage was taken

10:03

by Kevin Wuchlan of Arcea

10:05

Samsic who was two seconds

10:07

shy of dislodging Pedersen from

10:10

the top step of the podium on

10:13

GC again more on that race in

10:15

part two. Rob, you

10:17

were also compensating on a stage race at

10:19

the weekend, it was in Spain. Yeah

10:21

it was the 75th Volta La Comorita

10:24

Balenciana Tour of Valencia basically. It started

10:26

in Benicassim, sort of San Remo of

10:28

Spain, a big festival town. Alessandro Tonnelli

10:30

in Italian, appropriately then, won the stage,

10:32

he went in a breakaway, had the

10:34

yellow jersey with it. Next day Matei

10:36

Mohorich won after a descending masterclass. Jonathan

10:38

Milan won a sprint on day three,

10:40

then it was an all-American weekend. Brandon

10:42

McNulty winning uphill and taking the yellow

10:44

jersey. Will Barta with

10:46

a first ever pro win away

10:49

from Movistar on the least expected day

10:51

because we thought it was going to be a sprint

10:53

and they won in Valencia but McNulty held

10:56

on to the overall. Rob,

10:58

I ask you for a simple list of

11:00

stage winners, you can deliver some lovely flourishes

11:02

there and local colour, music festivals, references

11:05

to Netflix documentaries. Just flashing

11:07

away outside of Stumpmaster. That's

11:11

what we pay the big bucks for. Last

11:14

bit of road racing I'm going

11:16

to cover is the women's Welta

11:19

La Comorita. I

11:21

saw it listed as the Welta BC. C.V.

11:25

Comorita Valencia. It's a

11:27

bilingual region, isn't it? Depending

11:30

on which part of the length you're in,

11:32

Castilian or Catalan is a predominant language. Usually

11:35

north is more Catalan, south is more

11:37

Castilian. Anyway

11:39

Rob, the winner of that was

11:41

a French woman, a Cédrine Carbale.

11:44

Very Breton sounding surname that, Carbale. And

11:46

a Breton rider is in the news

11:48

for less auspicious reasons or has been

11:50

in the last 24 hours. The

11:53

UCI announced yesterday that the Decadland

11:55

Agie d'Orsay en la Mondial rider,

11:58

Fron Bonamour, has been provisionally

12:00

suspended due to unexplained abnormalities

12:02

in his biological passport. Bonamor's

12:05

team repaines, that is, um, Descatno

12:08

and Ajit Duzal, were

12:10

at pains to point out that the

12:12

irregularities date from before when he joined

12:14

the team, he joined the team at

12:16

the start of last year. Rob's

12:19

second bit of important doping-related news

12:21

in the last few days, Ation-Ilex

12:28

investigation. The suggestion

12:34

that that probe, that

12:36

investigation will likely end with some

12:38

of the individuals involved punished for

12:40

minor trafficking but not doping offences.

12:43

Marca, a Spanish newspaper, also referred

12:45

to sources indicating that the biggest

12:47

fish in the

12:50

investigation, Superman Lopez, is likely to

12:52

see his provisional UCI suspension become

12:54

a life ban before very

12:56

long. It wasn't entirely clear

12:59

apart from the sources they referred to and

13:02

what information that was based. But I

13:04

did read about, there are transcripts

13:06

that have been leaked, aren't there,

13:08

from the investigation. And

13:10

it does all sound quite compromising,

13:12

certainly, for Superman Lopez. Chaps,

13:16

the next item is an important

13:18

one. Tour Britain and the Women's

13:20

Tour. We know that the previous

13:22

organisers of both events, Sweet Spot,

13:24

recently entered liquidation. And we learned

13:26

last week that the National

13:28

Federation British Cycling will step into organise

13:30

both races in 2024. Just

13:34

this morning, I spoke to

13:36

the British Silicon CEO John

13:39

Dutton OBE. How about that? We've

13:42

inherited a complex situation.

13:45

We have a great degree of discrimination to

13:47

deliver two races this year, Tour Britain 4

13:49

Women in June and Tour Britain 4 Men

13:52

in September. It's, I say,

13:54

it is a race against the clock to ensure

13:56

those races go ahead. But we're

13:58

doing everything in our power. to

14:00

make sure. What I would describe as

14:02

the jewel in the crown of domestic

14:05

racing here in Great Britain

14:07

happens and happens in 24 with

14:10

a view to growing the

14:12

properties thereafter. Yeah, it's hard.

14:15

It's not quite impossible. Daniel,

14:17

I'm full of determination, full of

14:20

energy and we're just going to give you everything we've got. And

14:22

if we come up short, it won't be through the lack of

14:25

effort or the

14:27

investment that we're making into the

14:30

races. So June and the wings,

14:32

the tour of Britain for Women

14:34

is difficult. Obviously September a bit

14:36

more time but also a larger

14:38

race, larger footprint, bigger

14:40

geography. Whilst being optimistic, Daniel,

14:43

I'm also a realist and

14:45

I spent 28 years in

14:47

the sports industry and

14:49

it's probably the hardest I've ever seen in

14:51

the industry in terms of driving commercial revenue

14:53

and we've seen that manifest in different ways.

14:56

Is that sport in general, John, or cycling?

14:59

Yeah, it's cycling but sport

15:01

in general. I think

15:03

in the UK the behemoth of the Premier League

15:05

into football and that goes from stress

15:07

to strength but many other sports are

15:10

suffering the same way that cycling has.

15:12

These races are expensive. Anything in the UK

15:15

on the highway now is more

15:17

costly whether that's from a policing safety

15:19

risk perspective. So what that needs to

15:21

be financially sustainable is to

15:24

drive revenue whether that be from

15:26

broadcast sponsorship, right seeing that's been

15:28

contributed from the public sector.

15:30

So we're under no illusions of how far

15:32

this is, Daniel, but I think it's a

15:35

testament to the determination of British

15:37

cycling that we appreciate

15:39

how important these races

15:42

are. And we launched last week a

15:44

five-year event vision. Obviously the like

16:00

that. Just a

16:02

very last couple of things John, one

16:06

can you give us any kind of date in

16:08

terms of routes or sort of target dates where

16:11

you'll aim to be announcing

16:13

a route and secondly is a

16:15

scaled-down version of the women's tour

16:17

or the Tour of Britain fewer

16:19

race dates? Yeah from the Tour

16:21

of Britain women's perspective

16:23

we have confirmed that it will be

16:25

less than six days which has come

16:28

before 4.24. The men's

16:31

race will remain at eight days in

16:33

the coming dates that have been published.

16:36

We would like in the next couple

16:38

of months to be in a position to confirm

16:40

our intentions with the ability to tour of Britain

16:42

women. That has to happen anyway just

16:45

because of where we are from a time perspective. But

16:47

yeah the team working really hard we want to

16:50

provide some certainty and some clarity and

16:52

we hope to do that within the next couple of months. Brian

16:56

as an outsider I mean to a certain extent

16:59

we're all outsiders commenting on

17:01

this neither of us, none

17:04

of us currently live in the UK and

17:07

so we it's perhaps

17:10

harder for us to sort of pick

17:12

the bones out of a wider

17:15

phenomenon of a sort of

17:17

crisis in British cycling with races

17:19

disappearing and a lot of talk

17:22

of the bust after the

17:24

boom. In fact just

17:26

this morning on Tuesday there was an

17:28

article in the Guardian newspaper by Jonathan

17:31

Liu about precisely

17:33

that about how the

17:36

boom that sort of occurred coincided

17:38

with Team Sky, the Olympics so

17:40

on and so forth has now

17:42

really turned to bust. Brian

17:45

from the outside and from your

17:47

advantage point in Tuscany

17:49

what do you make of it all? Well

17:52

you just you definitely I guess it's the

17:54

same with certain teams as well the the

17:56

comings of and goings of say

17:59

maybe relevance strength, finances,

18:01

etc. And it's

18:04

something that a lot of countries I think are quite

18:07

concerned about, not

18:09

particularly in the outside of the

18:12

Danish cycling, but the Danish

18:14

cycling is probably one of the strongest countries

18:16

in the world when it comes to cycling.

18:18

And there's certain things in

18:20

Britain that definitely hasn't helped. I

18:23

think I'm not blaming Brexit for

18:25

the demise of the liquidation of

18:28

the former to Britain. Ownership,

18:30

but I think there's a lot of things

18:32

that aren't particularly working very well for Britain

18:35

compared to how they used to. I don't

18:37

think cycling is a popular sport for parents

18:39

to send their kids to do. I'm not

18:41

sure I would either if I was living close

18:43

to larger cities

18:46

in Britain. But I think that it

18:48

seems to me that the grassroots part of it has somehow

18:51

diminished a little bit or vanished.

18:53

And it makes

18:55

a lot of sense to say that Ineos is very

18:57

far from being a British team, looking

19:01

at their roster, looking at

19:03

the potential for having

19:05

a grand tour winner, at least in

19:07

that team. And as mentioned as well

19:09

in the Guardian article, there's still a

19:12

high level of British professionals.

19:14

But I'm also thinking

19:16

sometimes... Well, the highest ever. Yeah, but I'm

19:18

also thinking for

19:20

British fans, for the people who would love

19:23

to see cycling live, I'm

19:27

sure it's important that there is a tour of

19:29

Britain, but I don't think it's the saving grace

19:32

of British cycling or the future of British cycling.

19:34

I think that's part of the

19:37

grassroots to take care of, it's part of

19:39

the professionals to lead the way. And

19:42

sometimes I guess you have to let

19:46

go what can't stand on its

19:48

own. Is

19:51

that too much? That's too much. Well,

19:57

I was about to say that... This

20:00

is a temporary measure certainly to save the tour

20:02

Britain and the women's tour. I mean if we

20:05

go back To

20:07

the sort of boom years the golden years around sort of

20:09

2014-15 It

20:12

would have been inconceivable that such a

20:14

thing could occur and certainly back then

20:16

there was talk of ASO Well, ASO

20:18

had already Put

20:21

their hat in with the tour the Yorkshire which

20:23

survived and sort of thrive for a number of

20:25

years But there was also talk of them wanting

20:27

to Maybe take

20:30

the tour Britain away from sweet

20:32

spot those talk of RCS getting involved and

20:37

To go back to what I just said a minute

20:39

ago This is a temporary measure the British cycling and

20:41

trying to save the races. I do believe I understand

20:43

that after These

20:46

races might be put out to sort of

20:48

tender again They might be up for grabs

20:50

and it's gonna be interesting to see if

20:53

there is any interest at that point from

20:56

An organization like ASO RCS

20:59

you you mentioned grassroots.

21:01

I believe that the

21:03

grassroots levels Is

21:06

quite healthy and there's certainly a lot of talent

21:08

coming through a lot of

21:10

people so willing to volunteer on that

21:13

Level because it is a sort of scene as

21:15

well as well as the policing

21:18

that has been a bit of a bone

21:20

of contention It costs a huge amount of

21:22

money in the UK compared to other places

21:24

where races are organized and it relies on

21:27

volunteers and it's a struggle on

21:29

some levels and to get people

21:31

to volunteer not for example

21:33

at the grassroots Level

21:38

but it's a complex it's

21:40

a complex Gone

21:42

if you look at the thing that this is now

21:45

British cycling making an Investment to make sure that at

21:47

least it's gonna stay on for this year and then

21:49

maybe be put in a tender next year You know

21:51

Denmark just applied for the world championships in 2029

21:55

with a huge amount of money going into

21:57

it and I often say

22:00

I think, I mean, that's

22:02

great for Copenhagen, that's great for the other

22:04

cities taking part, but if that type of

22:06

money, that type of investment, if you put

22:08

that into talent development, for safety, for campaigns,

22:11

helping young people to get into cycling, if

22:13

you look at the overall future for any country, be

22:16

it Britain or Denmark, I think that

22:18

money is probably way better spent. I

22:21

mean, Denmark already spends a certain amount of

22:24

money for tour of Denmark and for talent development, but

22:26

I think if you really wanna help British cycling, I'm

22:28

not sure that the tour of Britain is the

22:31

most relevant place to start a massive investment.

22:37

That's just my opinion, I'm not sure, that's not

22:39

the saving grace of British cycling, I'm

22:41

sad to say. I

22:43

think, I understand

22:45

where you're coming from there, but I do

22:48

think that the sport, or any sport, needs

22:50

a hook, needs something for people, for young

22:52

kids to go out and watch, you know?

22:55

Where there's no sort of coincidence that I

22:57

grew up liking football and cricket, because that's

22:59

what I was taken to see, and that's where the teams we had

23:01

to go and watch, you know, very

23:03

strong amateur cricket leagues, fantastic, well, at the

23:06

time, fantastic professional football. I wouldn't say the

23:08

same after this week's going on over in

23:10

the northwest of England, but

23:12

that's another story, but you need a race

23:15

where people who know nothing about the Tour de France are

23:17

gonna be able to come into contact with it. But that's

23:20

just five days, isn't it? Isn't

23:22

it like if you had a proper racing series,

23:26

or a continental team at a rather

23:28

high level, don't you think that would

23:30

be more of a crowd, or

23:32

a potential hook? It

23:35

certainly would, and I think it needs that as

23:37

well, but having worked for a national broadcaster, trying

23:39

to cover cycling for a little bit, and tearing

23:41

my hair out, them not

23:44

really wanting to understand the sport,

23:46

and publishing reports saying, you know,

23:48

I don't know, the star of

23:50

the time when it was Froome Wiggin, Jates, whoever, finished

23:52

in 355th position, When

23:55

they'd all finished on the same time, little mate,

23:57

things like that, where they didn't want to understand

23:59

it. That's what people get their news

24:01

from still and that's where people stare into

24:03

it. needs that sort of mainstream access. nothing

24:05

only I'm an international stage race can bring

24:08

that and as an inability to do a

24:10

better job of sales in it still turn

24:12

it down sore throat than talking about dragging

24:14

on about this but has been the collective

24:16

amnesia because the mean. You've. Been part

24:18

of building up that audience and and in

24:21

connecting them to the major events yes bill

24:23

on satellite television Han Tae on pay services.

24:25

This needs to be something it's free and

24:27

it needs to be something that people talk

24:30

about in the newspapers people talk about on

24:32

the news bulletins rather than it being a

24:34

last item of the thing is difficult place

24:36

to get through to break the dominance of

24:39

other sports. I'm not saying wherever going to

24:41

be at the level of football or anything

24:43

like that but it needs a British writer

24:46

and and on again it that proxy say.

24:48

Something about society. But that's not great

24:50

either that it needs a British rider

24:52

to do something in a home race

24:54

to get that attacking. Well.

24:56

Later we're going to about Italy where

24:59

little brown Italian and a former Italian

25:01

pied piper on what the absence of

25:03

one now and the fact that much

25:06

harder and them other you do have

25:08

acknowledged as well that's in a resort

25:10

to my bed. With the number of

25:13

British right it's a record number British

25:15

right as at the top of the

25:17

sport and was have on the women's

25:19

side as well. Ah and that is

25:22

very easily connect to both to the

25:24

success of a few three or four

25:26

individuals. In the second period the cabin

25:29

this is the weekends and the for

25:31

hims as well so that either that

25:33

the top of the sports the right

25:35

pinnacle of the sport is really important

25:38

his name but I get what you

25:40

same. Brian under a lot of different

25:42

ways to invest money and invest your

25:44

energies. If you off a governing bodies

25:46

year just on a Tour of Britain

25:49

we heard that and John Donne talk

25:51

about the some logistics of the race

25:53

and what the new race might look

25:55

like An. again i come from

25:58

a a real layman's perspective and

26:01

I'm in danger of suggesting things

26:03

that aren't very

26:05

well thought out. But you think

26:08

of a race like the Tour

26:10

Down Under, it's based in one

26:12

hotel, essentially, the whole week. And

26:14

it has never really

26:17

thought or talked about going to other areas

26:19

of Australia. It doesn't feel that that is

26:22

part of its kind of vocation to take

26:24

the race everywhere in Australia. And

26:27

it's viable, again, completely different set of

26:30

circumstances. But when we talk about the

26:32

costs and the difficulties, the logistics and

26:34

so forth, it strikes me

26:36

that a more simple iteration

26:39

version of the Tour of Britain than

26:41

the one we saw for many years

26:44

could be a convenient and sensible solution. But

26:46

we'll see. We'll see what they come up

26:48

with. And well, let's just hope that they

26:50

do come up with something. Chaps,

26:52

final item. It's

26:55

not an official, officially

26:58

included in the news roundup this

27:00

week. But there was a big

27:02

story about Saudi money, again, investment

27:04

in the One Cycling Project, Saudi

27:07

investment fund being behind 270 million

27:10

dollar, was it euro investment

27:13

in the One Cycling Project.

27:17

We've also had an interview this morning

27:19

in the Spanish press from the Movistar

27:21

boss, maybe Unfue, talking

27:24

about the way cycling

27:26

needs to modernize and

27:31

rethink its approach to

27:33

certain aspects of what

27:36

we currently see. I just

27:39

thought I'd kick that ball up

27:41

in the air and see if anyone wants to get underneath it and

27:43

sort of chest it and

27:45

slot it into the bottom corner.

27:47

How many times have we heard

27:50

senior team managers or

27:52

team owners say that cycling needs to

27:54

reinvent itself and needs to have a

27:56

different narrative? I mean, I

27:59

would love for a second. cycling, professional cycling to

28:01

be more sustainable for everyone involved, right?

28:04

I'm not of the persuasion that one cycling or

28:06

investment coming from that part of the world is

28:08

the way to go. I think we're selling out

28:10

on a lot of other things if we do.

28:14

But I don't think fundamentally cycling

28:16

as a narrative, cycling as the

28:19

calendar, as the race format, as

28:21

how we perceive winners and losers

28:23

or rankings needs to change.

28:25

I'm perfectly happy with how cycling is. I

28:28

love the classics, I love the grand tours, as other

28:30

races that I'm very fond of, to a best

28:33

country, other races. I don't really

28:35

think that cycling needs a

28:37

huge revolution backed by Saudi

28:40

investment to really have a bright

28:42

future. I'm not

28:44

that convinced about that, I'm sorry. I

28:47

can see where team managers are coming from, obviously.

28:50

But I don't think that's necessarily for the

28:52

better of cycling. Brian,

28:54

there is a link to the conversation we've

28:56

just had about the Tour of Britain, possibly,

28:58

in the sense that cycling always gives an

29:00

impression of being sort of stretched financially, but

29:02

also always, and I've said this many times

29:04

on the podcast, it's also seen to me

29:06

at times to have certain delusions of grander.

29:08

And I don't know whether this is unique

29:10

to cycling or whether all

29:12

sort of third tier, you

29:15

could call them third tier sports or

29:17

second tier sports, have this if we

29:19

were huge, I don't know. Volleyball

29:22

fans, Rob, you've worked in volleyball. Is

29:24

there a constant kind of mood music

29:26

in volleyball about we are

29:29

one season away or we're one

29:31

development, one reform away from breaking

29:33

the next tier, breaking through that

29:35

glass ceiling? I don't know, but

29:37

in cycling, that does certainly seem

29:39

to be a common theme. One

29:42

could say that in this case, it is

29:44

simply greed. And

29:46

it is simply people

29:49

at the top of the sport already earning

29:51

a lot of money, but having got a taste for

29:54

more and having got the idea that they can earn

29:56

even more. And We've

29:59

seen that in cycling. last year the rates have

30:01

gone for a much richer. Definitely.

30:03

Hikes i think cycling and again come

30:06

in a little bit. From that example

30:08

you some says the to suffer from

30:10

a little bit of the the same

30:13

self pathology of wanted to constantly six

30:15

itself in of once into constantly sort

30:17

things out of pretending that not all

30:20

these shows yet. Things. Could

30:22

be better. I think I thought the last

30:24

week that shown the podcast about of it

30:26

about a point system and and things like

30:28

that. I wouldn't say it needs a complete

30:30

revolution. There are things that could be change.

30:32

Maybe the whole plus a nice today know

30:34

thing could be sorted out. I dunno but

30:37

you've also got a lot of writers who

30:39

want a lot of rice in a that

30:41

time you get ready for the classics sauce.

30:43

Also difficult the saw thoughts and using volleyball

30:45

is an example. Every

30:48

two or three years there was a new

30:50

format to the beach World tour and always

30:52

came in the middle of that. they asked

30:54

to the Olympics where they were trying to

30:56

sort of grub the terrain. Back from the

30:58

visibility that I've every four years. and yeah

31:00

at a get unbiased Oliver a great sport.

31:02

It needs more visibility put it is nice

31:04

to be much more long term plan and

31:06

the indoor games I think suffers less from

31:09

from that sorta thing just because you know

31:11

you got big clubs like Dollars to Sri

31:13

and lot the Italian clubs a very famous

31:15

as well and bad Poland to Brazil that

31:17

this. This have had big strong fan

31:19

bases and is difficult to to so bright

31:21

that does reflect on a trying to get

31:23

football away. some football fans it you know

31:25

they've been a hold on to what they've

31:27

got with a national leagues and competitions but

31:30

they brought the Champions League in. There's now

31:32

a domestic season and an international season so

31:34

there's not much break for the players and

31:36

things like that though. They play domestic game

31:38

and in the winter international, in in the

31:40

European so months and in cycling. yeah we've

31:42

already got caught a small break as well.

31:44

I've only so easy gonna so of pool

31:46

this over a year then. In a week

31:48

and the ideas globalization I'm going to be racing

31:50

or year and is it going to become like tennis

31:53

where there's really no brakes? I don't know where we

31:55

go on with it as I'm I'm open to listening

31:57

to things, but I want to see a benefit for

31:59

everybody. Not just the rich, the top

32:01

and the biggest things and this issue

32:04

I was just fill the listens in

32:06

on way sebi own swear the movie

32:08

star they very long standing long term

32:10

or long serving Movistar team manager where

32:13

he thinks it might go am he

32:15

talked about the spool been to Animalistic

32:17

on for example. Perhaps

32:20

a being a good idea to

32:22

introduce substitutes in grand tours arm

32:24

or am give be option for

32:27

riders once they have crossed to

32:29

get treatment. Not. Finish stages and

32:31

then to resume the race the

32:33

following day which can see one

32:35

big I can see one big

32:37

issue with ios. It took Fifteen

32:39

day grand Tours as much as

32:41

I saw wint said the fifteen

32:43

days grand Tour idea. ah because

32:46

to do all the animals the

32:48

slits wellies. Yes am. At

32:50

some thus seventh our a few nights

32:53

in hotel room in nice hotel rooms

32:55

and know I do. I have more

32:57

some sympathy with that idea and I

32:59

can see how that makes more sense.

33:02

It not fundamentally changes in order to

33:04

get not fundamentally changed while or until

33:06

when opposed to being the sport has

33:09

already changed in the sense that sports

33:11

or already changed radically in the sense

33:13

that he could argue that it's no

33:15

longer even and insurance of and in

33:18

the sense thirds stages now are. Typically

33:20

hundred fifty kilometers long whereas once they

33:22

were three thousand a sorry not three

33:24

thousand comfortable three Hundred and Twenty comes

33:26

as lucky my down from they don't

33:28

know about three thousand kilometers stages and

33:30

yet to get up on i am

33:32

a minute to be on a semi

33:34

I would assist. Ah

33:37

I. Like when swear by are you

33:39

have he's a real gentleman and them.

33:42

One. Of one a few at that level I

33:44

would say at times but I mean if if

33:46

that's really be like someone a season the Sims

33:48

on one a senior was seen as many things

33:50

as he as. If that's really

33:52

the best they can come up with

33:55

for revolutionizing cycling are changing the narrative.

33:58

I. mean come on also second

34:00

of all and I don't really care

34:02

about the point system. I mean I

34:04

spend a half my

34:07

life following cycling and I

34:09

don't care about the points. I really have no interest

34:11

in that. It doesn't say anything about

34:13

racing. It doesn't say anything about character,

34:15

panacea, personality. I don't care about the

34:17

points. And like I said again, if that's the

34:19

best they can come up with and then also look at the races that

34:22

have been added via Middle East and

34:24

investment. Have they changed anything

34:26

other than making the season longer and

34:28

I mean great for the riders that they can race

34:30

in a nice climate

34:32

and stay in nice hotels? Not

34:35

particularly interesting racing. When you look at the world when it

34:37

was held in the Middle East and now it's going to

34:39

be so again I think in

34:41

2028. Has it

34:43

really added anything to making cycling more

34:45

interesting? I honestly don't think so.

34:48

I mean if you disagree, feel

34:50

free to let me know. I just

34:52

don't really see any major revolution coming

34:54

from that type of investment. On

34:57

the one hand I would say that I

35:00

think that should be racing all over the

35:02

world because everybody deserves to compete

35:04

and partake and we would not want to

35:06

deny any country that wants those. I think

35:08

bring that on great. But in terms of

35:11

saying this is reinventing the wheel and something like

35:13

that, I completely agree with you. It's not new

35:15

but I do think it should be

35:17

racing all over the world. Certainly another spectator. It's another

35:20

festival of excitement and I mean

35:22

I just

35:24

don't really, I mean they're trying, I

35:26

think they're talking about things that I'm

35:28

not really sure that they can imagine

35:31

themselves. Like if I was a team

35:33

manager I'd certainly be desperate to

35:35

try and secure funding and all

35:37

but are we securing funding for the future

35:39

of cycling or are we securing funding

35:41

for the holding companies that run cycling

35:43

teams? I think those are two very

35:45

different things. As

35:48

someone with intimate knowledge of some of these

35:51

negotiations to do with the one cycling project

35:53

said to me a few weeks ago, we're

35:55

going to stitch together all the same rubbish

35:57

we've got now that no one watches and

35:59

repackage it. and give it a new name and

36:01

yet there'll be a league table so what? Yep,

36:04

well at least the people in the

36:06

know they actually understand. Not my views, not

36:09

my views. Not very far from mine. Well

36:13

Chaps has stated in the first

36:15

part there was an awful lot

36:17

of racing at the weekend and

36:20

indeed all of last week there

36:22

will be an inordinate number of

36:24

races over the next few weeks

36:26

both stage races and one day

36:28

races mainly in Europe but we've

36:30

got the UAE Tour coming up

36:32

as well. So

36:34

all very interesting, exotic

36:37

in some cases. I

36:39

set you chaps some homework. This is the way the other,

36:41

the podcast is going to proceed

36:44

roughly over the next few weeks. We're

36:46

going to talk in the second part

36:48

most weeks about what have

36:50

been some of the highlights, main talking

36:52

points of the weeks

36:54

racing your homework chaps was

36:56

to well, bring

36:59

I don't know some

37:01

delicious dish for

37:04

us to serve

37:06

up and digest together

37:08

and discuss together. Rob,

37:11

you were working on the tour of, well

37:13

we'll call it the Tour

37:16

of Valencia, of the Valencia community. You

37:19

go first, what particularly caught your attention,

37:21

a race of course won by Brandon

37:23

McNulty. Yep, it was like I said

37:25

an all-American weekend at the end because

37:27

Will Barta pulled off that win with

37:29

an attack 50km from the line on

37:31

the last day and it never looked

37:33

like he was going to get there. But

37:36

I want to focus my attention on somebody who

37:38

didn't finish across the line in first place at

37:40

all at any point. It's

37:43

more of a pincio really if we're

37:45

talking cuisine rather than a big paella

37:47

down there in Valencia. A

37:49

gentleman named Gorka Sora

37:51

Rain, 27 years of age,

37:54

only a second year professional, first

37:56

full year, he's from

37:59

Tolosangipusco. in the north of the

38:01

Basque Country, not too far from San Sebastian

38:04

It's a very famous steak restaurant there

38:07

yeah extremely famous that's featured on

38:09

lots of food

38:11

programs in I think the UK

38:13

Is it a one called Echeverria?

38:18

No it's not that one, I know the one you mean but I

38:21

think Anthony Bourdain went to this particular one in Tolo When

38:23

you're taking me? I

38:27

don't eat meat anymore so anyway Anyway

38:29

I don't know if Gorgas or Arain's

38:31

been but he might have been to

38:34

celebrate the old basketball triumph before he

38:36

became a bike rider because he was

38:38

playing fourth division basketball in Spain just

38:40

before the pandemic Of course

38:42

a Basque man so always a cycling fan

38:44

but he had never really ridden a bike

38:46

in anger before Covid struck He

38:48

had a bike at home and he decided

38:51

that he'd get a home turner to keep fit

38:53

and you know presumably once the basketball resume being

38:55

in pretty good shape He was

38:57

combining his basketball with being

38:59

an electrical engineer that was his day job

39:02

And after

39:05

Covid you know sort of went

39:07

away the first time and things were allowed to

39:09

resume He started bike riding properly He

39:12

didn't compete as amateur until 2022 so

39:15

not last season the season before and it

39:17

was the last year allowed to compete as

39:19

amateur in the Basque Country as well sort

39:21

of mid to late 20s And

39:24

he discovered he was rather good at

39:26

it He had great numbers he won

39:28

races in places called Beriatua and Gernica

39:31

And then I think after sort

39:34

of demonstrating that he could go pretty well uphill

39:36

for a big guy and then you know finish

39:38

off from a small group sort of attacker rider

39:42

He transferred that to a Portuguese

39:44

team and he was still doing his job by the

39:46

way as an electrical engineer at this point So he

39:49

was going to work in the morning Training

39:51

in the evening and then putting in extra hours training on

39:54

a Saturday and a Sunday when he had a little bit

39:56

of time And he turned up at the

39:58

Spanish Nationals last year He finished

40:00

fifth in the elite race

40:02

last year, riding for a continental third

40:04

division Portuguese team with

40:06

no support, still an amateur. Kaharu Ra

40:08

liked what they saw, they picked him

40:10

up, threw him straight into Agrandissima, Volta

40:13

Porto Ga which I know is one of your

40:16

favourite races, Daniel, hipsters grand tours, you often call

40:18

it. And then he started

40:21

this year, racing in Valenci and

40:23

he took the King of the Mountains jersey on

40:25

day one. So from basketball and picking up the

40:27

two and three points, he was doing the same

40:29

on the mountains on the first day, and he had the

40:32

King of the Mountains day until the second to last day.

40:34

So I think that was a really nice

40:36

story. It's not a ski jump run or Daniel, but it

40:38

was a good one. I

40:40

was going to say, that was my next question. Oh, did he get a

40:42

ski jumping? Yeah, it's

40:44

about lemon. What's his

40:46

record like in the Four Hills tournament? Well,

40:50

we will look out for him, Rob. Do

40:53

you know anything about his race programme? Will

40:55

he get a ride in the world? Kajarourao

41:00

has not been announced yet, has it? I don't think the World's Talk

41:24

actually in one of the articles covering all of

41:26

that mess that you talked about earlier on, which

41:28

isn't very clear, really, depending on how many articles

41:30

you read. There

41:33

was a suggestion that they might be

41:35

after clearing their name and receiving some sort

41:37

of compensation for their name having been dragged

41:39

through the mud. So I think it's important

41:41

to state that. Yes.

41:44

And the way in particular, the classified

41:46

information that was part of the

41:49

police investigation had been leaked to

41:52

various journalists at the World's Talk

41:54

in Spanish last year. Rob,

41:58

just on Valencia. The

42:01

race was won by Brandon McNulty in very

42:03

convincing fashion. We'll talk maybe about

42:06

one of the riders he beat in a

42:08

moment or in a few minutes. But

42:10

Brandon McNulty strikes me chaps. He

42:13

is a rider who of all

42:15

of the would-be leaders,

42:18

pretenders at UAE Team

42:20

Emirates, I think it's sort

42:23

of been widely agreed

42:26

by various people that

42:28

this is getting a little

42:30

bit, well, overcrowded at UAE and they've

42:32

all, I think pretty much all got

42:34

long contracts that go beyond the end

42:37

of 2025. I don't

42:39

think it would surprise any of us if we

42:41

get to the end of this season and whether

42:43

it's an Almeida, whether it's an Ayoosa or

42:46

a McNulty, there may be someone

42:48

who tries to or has to

42:50

break free at the

42:52

end of the year. Brandon McNulty, I

42:55

think, is good enough to lead a lot

42:57

of teams in the world tour

43:00

and it wouldn't shock me if

43:02

come the end of the year he is

43:05

wanting a little bit more freedom. At

43:08

this time of year, I think, it's where

43:10

he's proving how good he is at leading, isn't it? Because

43:13

I saw a quote from Janetti, his team boss at

43:15

the start of the year, saying, yeah, his numbers are

43:17

good, his climbing, his time trying, his recovery, it

43:20

can win everything, but sometimes he's going to have

43:22

to help others. They also said they'd

43:24

give him a race program before that that would

43:26

allow him to go for his own opportunities and

43:28

he's grasping that with both hands, isn't it? Because

43:30

he was good in Mallorca, he was up there

43:32

three times looking for the win, he didn't manage

43:35

it, but as you said, Daniel, he was absolutely

43:37

outstanding in Valencia and that's

43:39

his first GC prize since he won the Tour

43:41

of Sicily and sort of made a name for

43:43

himself almost five years ago now and

43:45

if you look at who he beat, you mentioned a

43:48

couple of names, or you alluded the fact we'd be talking about them

43:50

in a minute, yeah, it was a good field.

43:54

He had the contract until 2027, Brandon McNulty,

43:56

so if he does want to leave

44:00

you at the end of the season. No

44:02

suggestion that he does, but should he want

44:04

to, they will need to negotiate some kind

44:06

of break from that deal.

44:09

Rob, just on the last day, Will Barta, a

44:12

lovely story that Will Barta is a guy who

44:14

a couple of years ago looked as though he

44:16

might fall off the edge of the earth as

44:18

far as the world tour is concerned, and he

44:20

got a contract with Movistar at the sort of

44:22

11th hour. It was a bit of an unlikely

44:26

partnership or it seemed like between

44:28

an American rider and Movistar, and

44:31

he's gone quietly about his business. Very

44:33

good time trial, almost won a world

44:36

tour time trial in Galicia, was sort

44:38

of pipped by Primoz Roglic a couple

44:40

of years ago, but as I say,

44:42

he's gone quietly about his business, and

44:44

on the last day he did something

44:46

quite extraordinary. It struck me watching that

44:48

race that if one

44:50

was trying to explain to someone

44:53

who has never watched a bike

44:56

race why a peloton goes faster

44:58

than a single rider, that

45:02

particular stage and that ride

45:05

by Will Barta would have made any

45:07

attempt to explain that look rather stupid.

45:09

Yeah, I was commentating with Matt Stephens

45:11

and we were looking at each other

45:13

because as Brian knows, there's often a

45:15

formula to this. You're thinking, well, yeah,

45:17

we've got to start changing the tone here because it looks

45:20

like he's going to get caught and it looks

45:22

like we've got to start talking

45:24

about who's there for the sprint, why this time's

45:26

riding, why that team's riding, and

45:29

he just wouldn't come back. He had

45:31

Centegarcia Costa in the car, didn't he? It was

45:33

the Fuga de la Fuga, the breakaway of the

45:36

breakaway, where he decided to go on his own

45:38

on the last climb and he

45:40

had a gap of about half a minute

45:42

or loss with 30 to

45:44

40 kilometres to go. Most of it flat

45:46

road, but Daniel, as soon as

45:48

he got to the edge of Valenci, the roads became

45:50

a bit more technical. There were less some riots and

45:52

it had echoes from the women's race that was pretty

45:54

same in the day. It was nice

45:57

because you talked about him being so close to winning that

45:59

Welltus thing. stage that would have changed

46:01

his life and I'm sure his salary as

46:03

well at the Mira de L'Orsaro I think

46:05

it was something like that up in Galicia.

46:07

He's from Idaho he's 28 years of age

46:09

he's been working at this for a long

46:11

time. Turned pro with CCC had

46:13

a year at EF and like you say he's

46:16

found maybe an unlikely homie movie

46:18

star but he certainly looked like he was enjoying

46:20

it the weekend and they were as well because

46:22

they've got two you know home wins in Spain

46:24

now in two weeks. It

46:26

was a bit of a cock up though wasn't it from the peloton and

46:29

it's something we often seen in Spanish

46:31

races in Spanish stage races I've seen

46:33

this many many times that

46:35

the sort of horsepower in the

46:38

in the chasing

46:40

group is is reduced or not what it

46:42

is in a lot of races we watch

46:44

because there are so many climbers in the

46:46

Spanish peloton you know particularly the Spanish domestic

46:48

teams we saw West Caltel were pulling

46:50

with Trek mate with Little Trek mainly

46:53

on the way into Valencia and

46:55

those Spanish continental division teams or

46:58

pro continental division teams and they

47:00

generally have quite a high quota

47:02

of climbers. Yeah and you know you have to

47:05

hand it to Old Scaltel because they were they

47:07

were pulling for a rider who's a track racer

47:09

from Mallorca by the way who's sort of finding

47:11

his way on the road Chavica Niejos who'd actually

47:14

already been the breakaway early on in the day

47:16

but they wanted to give him a chance of

47:18

maybe I don't know finishing second or third behind

47:20

Milan I could imagine and and you're right there

47:23

was an issue in that peloton in that Jonathan

47:25

Milan was head and shoulders with everybody else so

47:27

everybody was leaning on Little Trek. Literally he's about

47:29

6 or 7. And

47:32

the other sort of top tier sprinter if

47:34

you like I mean he's probably not in that top

47:36

tier yet but he had a few goals at the

47:38

Giro last year Arnaud Maric he'd been dropped and he

47:41

wasn't gonna get back on so Anto Marcia weren't really

47:43

riding for him and and Lidl was sort of running

47:45

out of options they're a man down because Fabio Felina

47:47

didn't start at the week Emmanuel

47:50

Gebre Xabi has ridden all week and all

47:52

day again to try and bring it up

47:54

and They had sort of climbers pulling

47:56

at the end like Sam Omen And as good as Sam

47:58

Omen is, they needed more horsepower. Brian.

48:02

It was pretty good week for trek

48:04

were little track in Valencia. nonetheless what

48:06

they say they did get days when

48:09

we're that it was one state and

48:11

government will jump from Milan rubs I'm.

48:13

They had an even better week. In.

48:16

France or the it was the

48:18

best says In spite of thought

48:20

so remarkable. Lost a stage win

48:22

by Kevin Will class. I said

48:24

in this round of he was

48:26

two seconds away from dethrone. The

48:29

much person is quite disappointed and

48:31

will com very disappointed In fact

48:33

is by winning the states am

48:35

he was sort of cursing his

48:37

last call, cursing things a may

48:39

be could have done differently I'm

48:42

sure there were places way and

48:44

have gained a second. Or two

48:46

on those ten. Nothing. Ten point

48:48

something kilometers am no less. Brian

48:50

Must Pederson Impressive start to the

48:53

season on a double. Impressive because

48:55

this was very much. Predicted.

48:58

Expected and yet he

49:00

still delivered. Yeah.

49:02

I did. I mean I think it was a little bit closer

49:04

than she would have liked it to be. Take us has immense

49:06

in two seconds is not a lot of the and in that

49:09

type of. Companies. Not.

49:11

Taking anything away from the other

49:13

riders are making in second statements

49:15

as such where he probably should

49:17

win that race, is he? Up.

49:20

To his normal level at this time a year.

49:22

At I caught onto an interesting quote from him.

49:24

you know it's up. Spend a lot of time

49:26

writing press releases and I know. In

49:29

others. Some. Of it is

49:31

as strategic some of it is

49:33

an orchestrated out cetera. yeah and

49:36

as I'm afraid of Yehuda sunk

49:38

its but he did it say

49:40

something that I had that com

49:42

interested interest. Because. He

49:44

said he would rather not win. Anything

49:46

else but as he was able to take a monument

49:49

that would be that will be his season and the

49:51

if you sort of look at this. At

49:53

his Palmer As and look at how he's. I

49:55

was a also develop your he wonder was had a pet

49:57

a very young age. Seats.

50:00

You need to win a monument. This is really

50:02

where he's at now in in his certain in

50:04

his career and if you look at how his

50:06

is gone the last two years. Your.

50:08

Sixteens and Ramo earns when his who

50:10

and twenty three eights and slander third

50:13

last year. Forth. And repay

50:15

lost any I think is that. The.

50:18

The Curse of Mess Peterson in the Classics. His.

50:22

Immediate you ask Avalon Lock And it's also

50:24

hard if if you're only focus on two

50:26

Sundays a year of where you wanna be

50:28

your best. All kinds of things can

50:30

go wrong or you'll have had a terrible season. He hasn't

50:32

because he's won races, nest and ride in his. His

50:35

level as been astonishing from Deborah

50:37

to the whole, always from September.

50:40

But. It's a difficult. Situation.

50:42

For him now as it as as it is

50:44

with anyone who was not poverty housing of underground

50:46

sourced. He's. Riding in an era

50:48

where he's up against phenomenon speedy. I mean

50:50

when you see the. Southland.

50:53

Us last year. you know it's pocket. I

50:55

was so winning in and Vanderpool was second.

50:57

It's is not an easy. Is. Are

50:59

these a situation phone to be in and A but

51:01

I think everyone's is expecting him to to win a

51:03

classic spare a monument a real monument to me when

51:05

they would have is when current. But. He

51:07

needs to win a classic. I think this year

51:09

next year else is gonna start to be. Potentially.

51:13

Even I couldn't that burden even for him

51:15

Not winning even at getting closer is not

51:17

good enough in old. Being on the podium

51:19

is as always great but with a with

51:21

a typewriter yes it's it's really crunch time

51:23

business. In other sporting

51:26

golf yeah said so dreaded epithet best player

51:28

in the world not to hasn't won a

51:30

major in cycling. you maybe have the best

51:32

rider in the world is not one a

51:34

grand tours is months patterson the bus ride

51:36

in the world. He hasn't

51:38

won a monument some but one day

51:41

Ryder possibly possibly every now suddenly are

51:43

just looking now. got my masters and

51:45

not thrives on him. And Deep and

51:47

Pretzel a classic sauce that two months

51:50

where I'm in a non us we're

51:52

adults and Europe's better cause the World

51:54

Championship to two different stages Three Blais

51:56

the stages had zero stage show. He's

51:58

got the. No the grand

52:01

to to let you down east go as

52:03

you mentioned Brian against Wales him a coroner

52:05

national champion on the road world champion on

52:07

mention already the only thing missing from his

52:09

palmer is is a monument is been second

52:11

that on the those launderers been third and

52:14

that on the of land that us poor

52:16

soul of those are the places that you

52:18

mentioned in south Raymone who base and it

52:20

is the only thing missing I I wouldn't

52:22

be as or census a nice to win

52:25

a monument a couple years. he's had a

52:27

political career already as anyone with a lot

52:29

of people would obviously. Be jealous of of

52:31

his resolve but I think for his. For.

52:33

His own determination and phone. Is

52:36

is an interesting thing now with them.

52:38

With. Little trick and they. The.

52:41

Sort of moved in different directions and the

52:43

last couple years and now they are moving

52:45

towards would with the investment and bring you

52:47

on toggling hard to that they want to

52:49

be run through. Winning. Team or does

52:51

have a good crack at it. but I think the. The.

52:54

Leadership role that he has. he's one of

52:56

other races for it to be relevant for

52:58

him to be seem the to because he

53:00

really delivers even be wins. Five.

53:03

Eight significant races over the year.

53:05

By. I think I bumper wanted to

53:07

say what Daniels it was a golf

53:09

comparison Know any of us both media

53:12

grand slam comparison in tennis. That.

53:14

I think of property even most of

53:16

all himself things that it'll be. A

53:19

disappointment. A proper disappointment if he doesn't back

53:22

and monument in the next couple years including

53:24

see a starting. Saturday. And a

53:26

month's time, Moelis. I was

53:28

gonna say brian I'm he's related to

53:30

remove on some rumors some of the

53:32

most confusing to me as a least

53:34

love affair since I don't know Ross

53:37

and rates him friends. I'm famous aren't

53:39

framers so I surmise that and framers

53:41

kind of. Our. Mainly off

53:43

and then with some turned on. Last

53:46

year. Many did. He

53:48

did arrive and decide to quite liked

53:51

his Harrys Iskander again when I was

53:53

talking to one of the people in

53:55

his entourage earlier today. And.

53:57

As syncing that his but his. Only.

54:00

Sister as eye opening performance in San

54:02

Remo was because he was a substitute

54:04

e K: I don't know who was

54:06

it's. Stove. And maybe

54:08

wasn't able to race. and then they brought him

54:11

in relatively last minute and a a A member

54:13

hims and been quoted as time saying there wasn't

54:15

a race that he liked a lot. It was

54:17

boring, it was. It. Wasn't it? It

54:19

wasn't that attracted to him because he was also

54:22

fairly easy. And but I think

54:24

he's I'm in Us. Also, the I was

54:26

it yesterday he does recall with with Curse

54:28

on the Poggio He's probably probably bit more

54:30

ambitious about it this year. Given.

54:32

This also has his current level as he

54:34

should be pretty okay to to have a

54:36

say in the finalists. you. Want

54:38

our core like about months Pederson. Brian.

54:41

Am is quite contrary and is key can

54:43

be I sit there are have a you

54:46

are in cantankerous me today and he can

54:48

be quite Am sort of whimsical in a

54:50

way that I'm I'm very much identify with

54:52

you know didn't like out won't won't go

54:55

to altitude didn't do I'll see training camp

54:57

didn't like Milan san Remo and also a

54:59

government run off the my and how are

55:01

they were know as the balance of us

55:04

last year he was. He. Was

55:06

convinced he was not gonna live anywhere else

55:08

but in own a stone's throw from where

55:10

he grew up and now is this. Moved

55:12

to Switzerland. Am. Not sure

55:15

this for for training reasons but that still

55:17

whatever. And so but he is said to

55:19

someone who am I mean this. Is

55:21

the famous quote else in the days leading

55:23

up to as to what championships and York's

55:26

hipkiss Miss Peterson rise with are not gods

55:28

when it when of is raining. And.

55:30

He was riding much gas and then when

55:32

when when he was in Yorkshire testing out

55:35

the puck, Eu and current summers was like.

55:37

Who. Said idiot riding much Gods as you

55:39

know for coming into like such an

55:41

important I said looks pretty pretty lame.

55:44

He. Just Us It He said he does things

55:46

his own way and I think that part of

55:48

his psychology is also. He has this ability to

55:50

self, hip, hypnotize, and sell. Sometimes when he sets

55:53

his goals, The. goals and and reaches

55:55

them and mean our our probably at the

55:57

olympic games in in paris this year as a

55:59

big goal for him and I think if

56:01

he takes gold medal there, finishing

56:03

second in Roubaix will probably be something that

56:06

he'll be able to live with. But

56:08

I think the fascinating thing is, it

56:10

is hard to target the classics because

56:12

other than everything else can go wrong, but

56:14

he's also up against some pretty stiff competition. I

56:17

would probably have him a little

56:19

bit more in his favorite role than

56:21

even Fanard, because Fanard's

56:23

always been, well he's won, he's won

56:25

rainbow obviously, but he's been a bit of a bridesmaid

56:28

as of late in those races. He's

56:31

a contrarian much like I can be at

56:34

times, but he tends to hate the things

56:36

I like, he hates being

56:38

alone in the mountains, I love

56:40

that, hates Milan Samreimo and he

56:42

likes some of the things that

56:45

I'm less fond of. Is

56:48

he a Rivella fan? Well,

56:50

I think he's a bit of a Twitler now doesn't he?

56:52

Well, the late version. Well,

56:55

yeah, I missed my opportunity to

56:57

mention Rivella in my very tortuous

56:59

intro about indigenous drinks earlier on

57:01

in the episode because I saw

57:03

Adam Blythe, I was very upset

57:05

yesterday, Adam Blythe posting with a

57:07

bottle of Rivella, that is my

57:09

get your tank off my lawn

57:11

Adam Blythe, that is my drink.

57:14

Before long Adam Blythe will be

57:17

popping up with an endorsement, a

57:19

multi-million euro or Swiss franc

57:21

endorsement deal with Rivella and I'll be

57:23

very agreed because that's my drink and

57:26

I discovered that and popularised it. Chaps,

57:33

I've got something that I would like to

57:35

mention from this weekend as well, also in

57:37

Valencia in Spain. And

57:41

also the Saudi tour it refers to, we've

57:43

talked so much in the last few

57:45

weeks about young riders emerging talents, one

57:48

who really caught my eye in

57:50

Valencia, it was the young Ethiopian

57:53

rider Hagos Walei, Rob,

57:56

there's been some confusion about how

57:58

we should say his name. exactly

58:00

is his full name. We

58:03

did a bit of

58:05

research on this. Hagos

58:08

Wole is what we should be calling him. Beira

58:11

is his other

58:13

name, but

58:16

I'm informed that Hagos Wole is just fine. And

58:18

well he was just fine particularly

58:20

on the climbs in Valencia. He

58:22

was about the fourth best climber

58:24

wasn't he on the hardest day.

58:27

He was really impressive. He was

58:29

really impressive and you know it's a

58:31

right, he's 22 years old, fantastic story.

58:35

He came to Europe and made

58:37

his way to the

58:40

pro scene, into the pro scene via

58:42

the World Cycling Centre, UCI World Cycling

58:44

Centre. But it was a very complicated

58:47

journey. There's been a war going on

58:49

in Ethiopia in the Tigray region where

58:52

he's from as well in the last

58:54

few years. Lost contact with his family.

58:56

He was sort of taken under

58:59

Marcelo Albacini's wing. Marcelo

59:02

Albacini is sort of a

59:05

real stalwart of Swiss

59:07

cycling father to Michael

59:10

Albacini, the

59:13

former Orica

59:15

rider. But Marcelo Albacini

59:18

sort of adopted Hagos

59:20

Wole and it

59:22

was all been very complicated

59:24

at various times with visas and at

59:27

one point he had to claim refugee

59:29

status. He was sort of living in a room

59:32

with three other

59:34

refugees or four other refugees in Switzerland.

59:36

None of whom were cyclists or sportsmen.

59:38

They were smoking in the room and

59:40

doing all sorts of other things that

59:43

weren't conducive to the life and

59:45

the regiment of a professional athlete.

59:48

But his talent has been pretty

59:50

clear to anyone who's watched him

59:52

over the last three or four

59:54

years and he's got a

59:57

three-year contract with J. Cole, Alula

59:59

and... really promising

1:00:01

climber and really exciting

1:00:04

rider generally. So

1:00:06

it was good to see him performing

1:00:08

so well and another very

1:00:10

promising young climber who caught the eye

1:00:12

at the weekend was William Junior Le

1:00:14

Cefre, as we may now call him.

1:00:21

Sudal Quickstep, first year professional,

1:00:24

as I said, Rob in the

1:00:26

intro. Apparently he was

1:00:28

born in Brabant, but he spent

1:00:31

a long time, or grew up

1:00:33

in Wallonee, so speaking French,

1:00:44

so he's perfectly bilingual, 54 kilos.

1:00:46

He sort of, I mean if

1:00:48

you see him you might be

1:00:50

reminded of, I don't know, Lenny

1:00:52

Martinez or Kenny Elyson, even a

1:00:54

really sort of tiny rider, but

1:00:58

on the Queen stage in Saudi Arabia

1:01:02

he almost outclimbed Simon Yates, almost

1:01:05

took the general

1:01:07

classification and climbs

1:01:10

with a very eye-catching high

1:01:12

cadence and

1:01:17

had some outstanding results in under 23

1:01:19

races in Italy last year, won the

1:01:21

Piccolo Di Rolle Lombardia. It's been touted,

1:01:23

I saw articles last week, even in

1:01:25

the Belgian press, talking about him as

1:01:27

the new Remco Avonapol. His

1:01:30

Sudal Quickstep, very supportive class, Ludovic said

1:01:32

that was in the words

1:01:35

of our good friend, Francois Thomas-Boulcheet. The

1:01:37

two should not be compared, but William

1:01:39

Junior Le Cefre will be in action

1:01:41

at the Volta Catalunya at the end

1:01:44

of March and that'll be his first

1:01:46

world tour race and it'll be interesting

1:01:48

to see how he measures

1:01:51

up in that company. of

1:02:00

Rwanda I think where he won a stage and

1:02:02

wore, I'm not sure he won a stage actually

1:02:04

but he wore the leaders jersey for a couple of

1:02:06

days. He wore the leaders jersey for

1:02:08

a couple of days and then you mentioned the under

1:02:10

23 results as well. As you

1:02:12

say he's from Halle, he was born in

1:02:14

Halle but grew up over in Wailonie so

1:02:17

perfectly bilingual, perfect example

1:02:19

of the modern Belgian I

1:02:21

guess able to straddle both

1:02:23

sides of the country and you know rather like

1:02:26

Remco Yevnupul hopefully get the support from all sides

1:02:28

of Belgium. So chaps

1:02:30

we've covered last week's racing in

1:02:32

some detail now, time for something

1:02:34

a little bit different. It's going

1:02:36

to be a lot of racing

1:02:38

over the next few days chaps

1:02:40

so next week's episode is going

1:02:42

to be a packed one. It

1:02:46

is also next week going to be

1:02:49

a significant date for professional cycling, it's

1:02:52

14th of February

1:02:54

Valentine's Day on Wednesday

1:02:56

and that will mark the 20th

1:02:59

anniversary of course of the death of

1:03:01

Marco Pantani. Now thinking about all the

1:03:03

racing we've got to discuss next

1:03:05

week and thinking about the guests

1:03:07

we've got on this week to

1:03:10

Halle Files, I

1:03:12

hesitated, I did hesitate when

1:03:15

thinking about whether to include

1:03:17

a segment on Marco Pantani

1:03:20

and the anniversary of his death is

1:03:22

obviously a subject that we have visited,

1:03:24

revisited many times over the years and

1:03:26

it's one that was

1:03:29

sort of conflicting,

1:03:31

conflicted, conflicting emotions

1:03:34

and we will talk about some of those

1:03:36

in a minute. It's

1:03:38

going to be a significant date particularly

1:03:40

in Italy, one that's going to be

1:03:42

marked by a lot of debate, discussion,

1:03:46

there are

1:03:49

also going to be books

1:03:51

that will be released this

1:03:53

year commemorating Pantani's

1:03:55

life, talking about his death, of

1:03:58

course Tour de France. starts

1:04:00

from Italy and will visit

1:04:02

his homeland, visit Cezé Nático

1:04:05

where he is born. One

1:04:08

of those books will be edited

1:04:11

by a good friend of cycling

1:04:13

podcast Filippo Kaut and it's called

1:04:15

The Last Time that Pantani Went

1:04:18

Away, Lútima Wota Quisine Andato Pantani

1:04:21

and it is a collection of

1:04:23

memories about the day when Pantani

1:04:25

died and the hours after he

1:04:27

died. Last

1:04:29

week on the date itself, 14th

1:04:32

of February, I believe on

1:04:34

Italian national television, right,

1:04:37

there is also going to be a new documentary about

1:04:40

Marco Pantani and the director

1:04:43

of that will be another

1:04:45

good friend of the cycling

1:04:48

podcast Stefano Ritato. My

1:04:50

question Chaps, on

1:04:53

this date, 20 years after

1:04:55

the death of Marco Pantani is

1:04:58

or was when I spoke to

1:05:00

both Stefano Ritato and Filippo Kaut

1:05:03

last week, what more

1:05:05

is there to say that hasn't

1:05:07

already been said about Marco Pantani?

1:05:09

It's for sure the biggest challenge

1:05:12

to say something new, to say something

1:05:14

different. I was actually I

1:05:16

was I wouldn't say a kid

1:05:19

but I was 12 when he

1:05:21

won on Alpe d'Huez in I

1:05:25

was 13 when he did a double

1:05:28

in 1998 and I've

1:05:31

seen the fascination not fade

1:05:34

away. I've seen the fascination stay

1:05:37

and I've seen the fascination

1:05:39

being alive despite him being

1:05:41

dead 20 years

1:05:43

now and it's something

1:05:46

that I wanted to investigate. I mean

1:05:48

the idea is to investigate why

1:05:51

this sports figure

1:05:54

has still such a big

1:05:56

impact in the Italian

1:05:59

sport. spot in the

1:06:02

Tifosi. And especially

1:06:04

I think there is something that is totally

1:06:07

uncommon, totally

1:06:12

different, that Pantani

1:06:15

still has his Tifosi on the routes

1:06:17

of big stages in the Giro or

1:06:19

the Tour, the Giro of course, they

1:06:21

will be in the Tour as well.

1:06:23

And he is not there. I mean

1:06:25

there are a bunch of Tifosi with

1:06:28

signs, with bandanas,

1:06:30

with yellow flags,

1:06:33

and he is not there. And I

1:06:36

don't think there is any other spot

1:06:38

figure in the world that has the

1:06:40

Tifosi alongside him, but he is

1:06:42

not there. Speaking about the people that have

1:06:45

been interviewing and the people in the

1:06:47

article, his people somehow,

1:06:49

I would say they are nostalgic,

1:06:51

they are sadder than,

1:06:54

they still haven't recovered, I

1:06:57

would say, from the shock. They

1:06:59

still haven't recovered

1:07:01

for their quest for

1:07:03

justice, for what happened in 1999, for

1:07:07

what happened in 2004, which

1:07:09

is completely unclear for some

1:07:12

reasons. And I think

1:07:14

this is what prevented, this

1:07:16

is what is

1:07:19

preventing all the people

1:07:21

that loved Pantani to find some

1:07:23

closure. And to find the closure

1:07:25

that you need to just take

1:07:28

the happy side, take the vital

1:07:31

side, take everything

1:07:33

that he did and just smile

1:07:35

and sit back and watch maybe

1:07:37

what he did in Europa

1:07:40

in 1999 and say wow

1:07:42

that's incredible. And not

1:07:44

thinking what happened just a

1:07:46

few days later in Campereo,

1:07:48

I think this is the

1:07:50

mood. And not

1:07:52

still something with closure,

1:07:55

but still with some rage

1:07:57

in it, some quest

1:07:59

for and this is

1:08:02

what's going on 20 years later. You

1:08:04

know cycling is a sort of a national

1:08:06

sport in Italy and with Pantani, Italian

1:08:10

cycling took a ways

1:08:12

that were missing since a lot of time.

1:08:15

It was 33 years after

1:08:17

the previous Tour de France one by

1:08:19

Giamondi and he did the

1:08:21

double, the Giro and Toura, he was the last one.

1:08:25

That double used to happen every

1:08:27

decade at that time, but after

1:08:29

it, it never happened. That makes

1:08:31

it something even more extraordinary.

1:08:36

But sporting results are not

1:08:39

enough to explain Pantani's religion and

1:08:42

especially are not enough to

1:08:44

explain why this religion,

1:08:47

why this affection to

1:08:49

Pantani is still alive 20 years

1:08:52

after his death. If

1:08:54

you go to race today, you will still

1:08:57

find Pantani fans and

1:09:00

you can see people cheering

1:09:02

for Pantani. That is probably people

1:09:05

who have been born after his

1:09:07

victories, maybe after his death. And

1:09:11

one thing that strikes me is that banners

1:09:14

for Pantani often go

1:09:16

together with banners for Scarponi, a

1:09:19

completely different rider who

1:09:21

died tragically like Pantani.

1:09:25

And in the

1:09:27

Pantani mythology, the tragic end is

1:09:29

very important. People still cheer Pantani

1:09:33

to find a way to exercise

1:09:35

trauma. They

1:09:37

still hurt for his death and

1:09:39

for how his death happened.

1:09:44

And well, the day after

1:09:46

Pantani's death, Italian television interviewed

1:09:49

Diego Armando Maradona, another

1:09:51

god probably, another myth at least.

1:09:55

And Maradona said Pantani

1:09:57

needed people, Died

1:10:00

Those people were not there. We.

1:10:02

Are all guilty. And.

1:10:06

Dislike. Another conclusion I find in

1:10:08

does. And his fingers that

1:10:11

perhaps in i'm in a country so

1:10:13

market by centuries of cathartic catch sure

1:10:15

that is also sort of a sense

1:10:18

of guilt about on done. Like

1:10:20

we cheer to Pantani. As. He

1:10:23

was our god. I were victorious

1:10:25

Got the one who did miracles.

1:10:28

And. Now we see cheer for him!

1:10:31

Because we realize that he

1:10:33

was abandoned. At. The moment

1:10:35

of his death. Following. This

1:10:38

catholic. Way.

1:10:40

Of seeing good it was the moment

1:10:42

of his of his crucifixion. So

1:10:46

there are many may be is talking

1:10:48

about been titled going Up and Ninety

1:10:50

Today and I I don't believe there

1:10:52

is a single reason to explain Been

1:10:55

Done is a in. Two. Thousand and

1:10:57

Twenty Four. That

1:10:59

I've been out of journalistic inquiries about.

1:11:03

What happened to Hema in the G?

1:11:05

It off, Ninety Nine and in the

1:11:07

following years and. A

1:11:09

truth as never been established, sold it.

1:11:12

It is still useful to look for

1:11:14

his truth because of its on the

1:11:16

ashes of that cycling. That.

1:11:19

Two days Cycling Today sports maybe

1:11:21

was founded. But

1:11:24

above all, I still find a need for our

1:11:26

reflection. And that is what you're

1:11:28

doing today. Asking me about this. Is.

1:11:31

Sue makes sense to talk about

1:11:34

Pantani because it makes sense to

1:11:36

talk about what moves inside each

1:11:38

of us. And what

1:11:40

leads us to move? To. Believe.

1:11:43

To. Love I could say

1:11:45

saw talking about Pantani Twenty

1:11:47

oscillator is just another way.

1:11:50

Of talking about mass

1:11:52

relationship with mystery shops

1:11:54

at an invitation to

1:11:56

reflect the states and

1:11:58

is anniversaries and. Invitation to

1:12:00

reflect on some of what

1:12:02

Stefano on Filippo said that

1:12:04

certainly an invitation to reflect

1:12:06

I'm just thinking about would

1:12:09

subsets of Philly pause book

1:12:11

the the day when Pantani

1:12:13

died to I'm Brian Funnily

1:12:15

enough coincidentally am I remember

1:12:17

that was that the two

1:12:19

or three days after Mike

1:12:21

Pattani death I was at

1:12:23

the throw feel like wailea

1:12:25

on the in a mood

1:12:27

or for a while of

1:12:29

of national. Mourning not just morning

1:12:31

in the sport cycling but national

1:12:33

mourning of race have some months

1:12:35

a real atmosphere around that race

1:12:37

but that was was the first

1:12:39

time I've associate you were in

1:12:41

the press rips the yet for

1:12:43

feel like well yes and them

1:12:45

yeah my memories of those days

1:12:47

ah wanted just total self can

1:12:49

numbness on and on personally as

1:12:51

well as a panic because we

1:12:53

had a whole issue of Pro

1:12:56

Cycling magazine finished and ready to

1:12:58

get to the princess and we.

1:13:00

Decided to pretty much rip up

1:13:02

the whole thing and I to

1:13:04

produce an numerous articles mean three

1:13:07

or four days to sit ups

1:13:09

and provide a fitting tribute to

1:13:11

the lice that pants on. It

1:13:14

had a career that he'd hard

1:13:16

on I suppose. Preface: What?

1:13:19

Has happened on we sort

1:13:21

of new we got a

1:13:23

sense already than that this

1:13:25

was going to be a

1:13:27

death that was that the

1:13:29

whole of the world of

1:13:31

psych him sick Italy was

1:13:33

gonna stay time on have

1:13:35

a great difficulty processing and

1:13:37

twenty years on one could

1:13:39

say that's Italy and cycling

1:13:41

still have not completely processed

1:13:43

or source satisfactorily process the

1:13:45

death of Martha Pantani. No,

1:13:48

I agree. Also, been listening to our

1:13:50

our Friends and those quotes. It. There.

1:13:52

Isn't inclusiveness to both? be and some

1:13:55

of it is factual. which has Ingrid

1:13:57

and Put aside for the moment because

1:13:59

that's. We'll still.

1:14:01

Ongoing. At least sometimes. But

1:14:04

I think the the emotional sky

1:14:06

and the. The. Healing process of

1:14:08

suddenly up. Our generation of people who

1:14:10

saw him racing, grew up seeing him

1:14:12

racing and. And. How he

1:14:14

became an icon of Italian cycling Because

1:14:17

he became. Notice: an icon

1:14:19

of Italicized became an Italian icon.

1:14:21

As such, Because. Of

1:14:23

we even. When. Because of who

1:14:25

he was in the his says his characters remember

1:14:27

what a denim and we were in nam. In.

1:14:30

Naples said that zero last year we we asked

1:14:32

them one of their local store keepers if he

1:14:34

knew any cyclists and. They. Only

1:14:36

made a mess and was was Marco

1:14:39

Pantani and at every Okla typically finance

1:14:41

yeah we've We've had that conversation with

1:14:43

all sorts of different people are endless

1:14:45

times I've lost twenty. Are there was

1:14:48

a vacuous? It was is relevant to

1:14:50

mention because. I sometimes find

1:14:52

it hard not to compare him

1:14:54

to Diego Maradona. This. This.

1:14:57

Strange. Character

1:15:00

This not particularly. Straightforward.

1:15:04

Person that that somehow had has his

1:15:06

inner demons. Ability

1:15:08

to to accelerate him. Into.

1:15:11

Different level of sports into becoming a

1:15:13

mythical. Mysterious. Person

1:15:15

and both. I'm in Mcmurdo on a

1:15:17

became new groove to. His

1:15:20

died as as an old a serpentine it but

1:15:22

sometimes when you see those. People. Who

1:15:24

know? He talked about Club Twenty Seven and and

1:15:26

in rock music That. The. Served as

1:15:28

a certain deadline for people who burned

1:15:30

the candles and in both ends. And

1:15:32

it is. It's also for me today.

1:15:35

It's hard to imagine what. What?

1:15:37

What the old Marco Pantani? What would

1:15:39

Pantani at? At. Sea Stephen sixty year

1:15:41

old womb out of a what what would he

1:15:43

look like and what would he be doing That

1:15:45

was. There. Was this element to

1:15:47

him that was that was that desperate

1:15:49

and that was constantly trying to get

1:15:51

away notice from the palace and but

1:15:53

from his his last conditions or insists

1:15:56

his inner demons and. And. whatever

1:15:58

and sometimes i feel like with italy It's

1:16:00

the lack of not having someone

1:16:03

who was that fabulous. I know that, you

1:16:05

know, Nibelis won all the All-Gran tours and

1:16:07

they've had other great bike riders, but they

1:16:09

haven't really had that icon that is

1:16:11

larger than the sport itself. Someone

1:16:14

that anyone would know even if

1:16:16

they didn't know the faintest thing about cycling.

1:16:18

And I think that's part of the scar

1:16:20

that won't heal is because there hasn't been

1:16:23

anyone after him and certainly not someone

1:16:25

as fabulous and spectacular in the way

1:16:27

he raced. It's

1:16:29

not just about winning is it? It's about the

1:16:32

way he rode. It's about his connection with a

1:16:34

nation's psyche really and what it meant at the

1:16:37

time. I guess the

1:16:39

time itself as well. We live in different times

1:16:41

now. You know, people are more accessible on different

1:16:43

levels of social media. Back then

1:16:45

it was the man who was plastered all over the

1:16:47

papers. The man who was on the telly every

1:16:49

day. You know, and if you

1:16:51

went to a race and you went to an event to an event,

1:16:54

obviously, there just wasn't as much communication.

1:16:56

You could see that face and so distinct TV

1:16:58

was with the way he looked, the way he rode.

1:17:00

I mean, I'm going to do what I do

1:17:02

every few years getting ready for that stage again.

1:17:04

I'm going to go back and watch Europa in a

1:17:07

couple of months. But it

1:17:09

is funny that his sort

1:17:11

of aura is unique to Italy, isn't it?

1:17:13

It's that relationship with his nation and with

1:17:15

the people because I have to, I

1:17:18

sort of have a bit of an intake of breath

1:17:20

every time I talk about Pantani on the telly during

1:17:22

the judo because I want to

1:17:24

translate to an international audience

1:17:27

exactly what Pantani meant to Italy because it

1:17:29

is important to mention him. But

1:17:32

I also get the feeling that a lot of the

1:17:34

audience are thinking, oh, what's actually talking about again Pantani

1:17:36

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They won't shut up about

1:17:38

him and people who don't want to know about him.

1:17:40

And I also get that as well. But, you

1:17:43

know, it's really important to try and

1:17:45

reflect how intrinsically related he is with the race and

1:17:47

with the people. And it is something pretty unique that

1:17:49

I don't think I've seen in any other place. I

1:17:51

don't think I've seen in any other race or any

1:17:53

other situation. Rob,

1:17:57

one of the complications, one of the difficulties about talking... About

1:18:00

Pantani as well and I think

1:18:02

we've all experienced isn't Sunday when you

1:18:04

do a in? It would be sort

1:18:07

of journalistic Hat on knees and

1:18:09

I mention this to i think Filippo

1:18:11

Stephen off my can. We did discuss

1:18:13

this birds the that people tend

1:18:15

to fall into two camps on that

1:18:18

There is a bit of a Berlin

1:18:20

Wall in the middle. there are

1:18:22

people whose whose love a nuisance and

1:18:24

federation of Pantani completely unconditional on those

1:18:27

people will not entertain any of

1:18:29

the why to contact you can't even

1:18:31

talk about the question marks have his

1:18:33

achievements and what was going on in

1:18:36

cycling out that times. And then

1:18:38

there are the people who refuse to

1:18:40

acknowledge to sort of emotional report on

1:18:42

the emotional resonance of what he

1:18:44

dates. And you know, as I said

1:18:47

I did hesitate to day am I

1:18:49

didn't know whether we should really

1:18:51

discuss Pantani again as we discussed in

1:18:53

endless times I've been spouting Filippo. They're

1:18:56

really touched on why. That

1:18:58

there is good reason to talk to

1:19:00

him. And it's simply it's emotions. Anything

1:19:02

that creates this emotional resonance in and

1:19:04

that many people and people who still

1:19:06

comes to the right side of the

1:19:08

genitalia eight. It deserves. To

1:19:10

be investigated, I don't think monastery

1:19:12

ever find definitive answers. I mean,

1:19:15

I found myself. I've written a

1:19:17

lot about over the a total

1:19:19

lot about over the years talked

1:19:21

about. for example, Of

1:19:23

in Earlier in the podcast we talked

1:19:25

about this sort of second tier of

1:19:27

sports or third tier sports and I

1:19:29

totes in the past a lot about

1:19:31

how that is so always up for

1:19:33

grabs. In the Helene Sporting kind of

1:19:36

panorama of football will always be number

1:19:38

one and Formula Formula One is just

1:19:40

below that splits. The third position is

1:19:42

kind of always up for grabs and

1:19:44

it depends on who is successful and

1:19:46

who is the sort of national ties

1:19:48

months I'm at the time in the

1:19:51

last few weeks north couple of weeks.

1:19:53

we've seen a new pretend off for

1:19:55

that position with yannick seen at tennis

1:19:57

player that complicated because they're said it

1:20:00

that when acknowledging him as Italian, they

1:20:02

think he's Austrian because he comes from

1:20:04

a part of Italy

1:20:06

where they speak German. However,

1:20:09

that's another conversation. So, you know, I've

1:20:12

sort of looked at, you know, you look at

1:20:14

the way those kind of third tier sports wax

1:20:17

and wane and motorsport

1:20:19

in general was pretty weak in Italy

1:20:21

in the early 90s and then

1:20:24

it became extremely strong with some very

1:20:27

charismatic figures like Valentino Rossi

1:20:30

and Max Biaggi and various

1:20:32

others just about the time

1:20:34

where Pantani's star started to

1:20:36

wane. And those sports took

1:20:38

a lot of the public

1:20:40

that Pantani had captivated. So

1:20:43

there's that aspect of it. The more sort of

1:20:45

kind of a

1:20:47

bit of beer mats of sociology just

1:20:49

looking at what was happening in Italy

1:20:51

in the 90s. We've talked before on

1:20:53

the podcast about how the

1:20:55

early 90s, probably 1990, the

1:20:58

World Cup 1991, it was sort of

1:21:00

a high watermark of Italy

1:21:04

feeling good about itself. It had the fourth

1:21:06

biggest economy in the world and

1:21:08

in the years thereafter, the mid-1990s, it

1:21:10

was this period of huge

1:21:12

upheaval. The political

1:21:15

parties that everyone had recognised had

1:21:17

been in power for decades collapsed.

1:21:19

The political scene became unrecognisable. There

1:21:22

were bribery scandals. Mafia,

1:21:27

strategy, terrorism

1:21:30

and you ask yourself

1:21:32

was Pantani somehow something to

1:21:34

hold on to? Was he

1:21:37

sort of pied piper role

1:21:39

accentuated in those years

1:21:41

because people felt destabilised

1:21:45

by everything that was going on in

1:21:47

wider society? And then you

1:21:50

think about the doping question and

1:21:52

how he was sort of he

1:21:55

represented he was the last sort of

1:21:57

salvo in an age when

1:22:01

people didn't really question what they were seeing. So

1:22:03

when they were watching Pantan, there was no question

1:22:05

mark in the back of their head, certainly not

1:22:07

in 98, 99. And

1:22:09

then after 98 and after Festina, all

1:22:12

of a sudden those question marks were introduced

1:22:14

and they no longer looked at professional cycling

1:22:16

in the same way. So

1:22:18

there are an awful lot of factors. Those are

1:22:20

just sort of three or four things that you

1:22:22

can, you could

1:22:24

sort of volunteer as explanations

1:22:27

for why he was able

1:22:29

to mobilize such energy

1:22:31

and such emotion at

1:22:34

that time. One thing I think

1:22:36

is quite interesting mentioning that

1:22:39

the tour is gonna pass by his

1:22:42

old hometown. Is there

1:22:44

a reconciliation of how, this

1:22:47

is a very large elephant,

1:22:50

elephantino in the room, because

1:22:52

of how the history

1:22:54

has, or history

1:22:57

of even ASO in

1:22:59

how they choose to iconify certain riders

1:23:01

from their parents and some that they

1:23:03

don't. In all fairness, there

1:23:06

are quite different characters altogether, but I

1:23:08

still find it's quite interesting. And

1:23:10

I look forward to hearing relevant

1:23:13

question being asked to Christian Proudhon

1:23:16

about reconciliation the

1:23:18

past and the relevance of a, a

1:23:21

known doper you could almost even say without

1:23:23

offending anyone. And I think it's quite important

1:23:25

to be, history has a

1:23:28

tendency not to be able to rewrite

1:23:30

itself. Only our opinions about it can

1:23:32

ultimately change. And I think there's

1:23:34

something very Italian

1:23:36

about insisting on the legacy of Marco

1:23:38

Pantani and the relevance of him as

1:23:40

a character where the doping element

1:23:43

actually doesn't take anything away from the myth

1:23:45

of him. Sometimes you could even say add

1:23:47

something to the mystery. But I think

1:23:49

there's something quite interesting in how

1:23:52

Italians think

1:23:54

about Pantani and how people

1:23:56

who look down upon cycling in that period think about

1:23:58

Pantani and how. the tour now

1:24:01

will at least recognize

1:24:03

his relevance in

1:24:05

Italian culture, not just in cycling culture, but

1:24:07

in Italian culture as such. Yeah,

1:24:10

it's really interesting the choice of the

1:24:12

tour route and I think on the

1:24:15

Italian side there was a deep desire

1:24:17

to honour Pantani by going to Cesinatico.

1:24:19

I think on the French side there's

1:24:21

probably less interest and what you will

1:24:23

see, I would suggest from

1:24:25

ASO, will be a heavy

1:24:28

emphasis on Fasta Coffee and Gino

1:24:30

Bartoli because the race is going

1:24:32

to, well it's starting in Florence,

1:24:34

home city of Gino Bartoli and

1:24:37

it's going into Piedmont, home region

1:24:39

of Fasta Coffee and probably

1:24:41

more of a sheepish emphasis on

1:24:43

Pantani would be my guess. Yeah, but

1:24:45

also we all know the hypocrisy of

1:24:47

that. It's almost like we have to

1:24:49

decide which decade Doping became

1:24:51

something to be frowned upon historically

1:24:54

and which it wasn't, you know,

1:24:57

even thinking about the Merfs' period and when they were celebrating

1:25:00

him in the town square of Brussels. All

1:25:02

these things, I'm not saying it's an

1:25:05

easy thing for ASO to navigate in,

1:25:07

but it's certainly not a moral

1:25:09

compass that's always aligned

1:25:12

or calibrated with strict categories

1:25:15

just to put that way. I

1:25:17

would say it's impossible for anybody to navigate and

1:25:20

come out of it with a sort of aligned,

1:25:22

balanced thing. I think everybody does their best on

1:25:24

that, or at least you'd like to think so,

1:25:26

but it is impossible, isn't it? Everyone's

1:25:28

on biases and life experiences are going to

1:25:30

come into that where they visited, who they

1:25:33

idolized, who they were fans of. But

1:25:35

from that point, I am surprised actually that

1:25:37

ASO are going to touch the Cezinático region.

1:25:40

I would have, you know, when I heard

1:25:42

it was starting in Florence, I would have sort of bet

1:25:44

on its stay in towards the sort

1:25:46

of western side, being going up through Liguria,

1:25:49

things like that and not touching. But

1:25:51

we all know that in the Giro

1:25:53

as well, Emilio Romagna as a government,

1:25:55

the regional government, has invested really heavily

1:25:57

in bringing big cycling events and sort

1:25:59

of... working what's a real traditional area

1:26:01

of cycling that we don't often talk

1:26:03

about. We talk about Lombardy, Venice, Florence

1:26:05

and Tuscany don't we? But if you

1:26:07

think of cycling's history in Italy and

1:26:10

its history as a sort of a real

1:26:12

working class sport in the factories and things

1:26:14

like that, Emilia Romagna historically has produced a

1:26:16

lot of clubs and certainly the sort of

1:26:19

grassroots as we talked about it with British

1:26:21

cycling earlier on, grassroots

1:26:23

are cycling in Italy a lot in terms of

1:26:25

participation come from there don't they? Just

1:26:29

finally Chaps I should also say

1:26:32

remind the listeners that there have been

1:26:34

various well when we talk about closure

1:26:36

and the mystery surrounding Pantani's death there

1:26:38

have been various investigations over the years

1:26:41

and there is one still going being

1:26:44

led by the Prochurandi Rimini.

1:26:47

The sort of mood music around that

1:26:50

is that it will end much like

1:26:53

the previous two have ended that

1:26:55

is unsatisfactorily as

1:26:57

far as Pantani's family are

1:27:00

concerned and certainly Pantani's mother

1:27:02

Torneena has, well she's sort

1:27:05

of lobbied hard for deeper

1:27:08

more in depth investigation into

1:27:11

certain elements of the case

1:27:13

and were there people in the room with

1:27:16

him when he died. The

1:27:18

connection to Madonna di Campigno I suppose as well

1:27:20

is still up top in the air. What

1:27:24

actually happened in 1999

1:27:26

in the Girat, Madonna

1:27:28

di Campigno, there is

1:27:30

fairly credible evidence about

1:27:34

unusual betting patterns, the

1:27:37

idea that possibly it was in

1:27:39

someone's interest for Pantani not

1:27:42

to finish the Girat that year

1:27:44

but that aspect of the whole

1:27:46

story, the lack of closure I

1:27:48

find rather, well very sad because

1:27:51

obviously it is

1:27:53

a way for some people, it seems to be

1:27:55

a way for some people of holding on to

1:27:57

his memory the Longer the years. Investigations

1:28:00

keep going and the longer the quest

1:28:02

for truth can tell. I also think

1:28:04

some of that has a list. Is

1:28:06

counted it's him alive in a sense of

1:28:08

never does not solve it is also counterfactual because

1:28:11

this is says if they want take? The.

1:28:13

Tragedy of Marco Pantani into the

1:28:15

hands of someone else. Someone else

1:28:17

has to. To. Carried

1:28:20

explanatory air force behind at

1:28:22

the tragedy of Marco Pantani

1:28:24

whereas. And as at least

1:28:26

from my perspective Michael Baton it was was

1:28:29

his own tragedy and there was to certain

1:28:31

elements built into his personality that. That.

1:28:33

That wasn't exactly leading to a happy ending

1:28:35

and been compared to France and of who

1:28:37

girl. Or. Someone else and anything

1:28:40

to the blaming the tragedy of

1:28:42

Marco Pantani on. Either them

1:28:44

at Monsieur and both. Betting.

1:28:46

Can. Corruption. Or.

1:28:49

As. Our as a drug scandal leading up

1:28:51

to his his untimely death. having does parts

1:28:53

of it where I think does does her

1:28:56

hesitation to actually take it all The facts

1:28:58

about. How he let his life

1:29:00

and how he was a potentially eat.

1:29:02

A. Tragic characters, Earth and waiting. Either

1:29:05

way, an accident waiting to happen

1:29:07

and the think. I. Can I

1:29:09

can certainly see why are the be was trying

1:29:11

to pull in the other direction in are blaming

1:29:13

someone else for his his loneliness of the sadness

1:29:15

of his. Have. Said they are where

1:29:17

he he finished to slice. Just

1:29:20

the last word on that chavs

1:29:22

can read a passage show a

1:29:24

paragraph from an editorial by our

1:29:26

colleague Enzo written Rt is an

1:29:29

Italian gelatin a Pantani very well

1:29:31

anywhere up easily be sweet talking

1:29:33

about the survey exploitative aspect of

1:29:35

be pantani story Filippo Coulson into

1:29:37

the we had earlier touched on

1:29:39

as well this of sense of

1:29:41

guilt that know was there to

1:29:43

help pantani on that he was

1:29:45

very much a pawn a now

1:29:48

in a Toxic system or an

1:29:50

Sos. Also. talked about

1:29:52

the and drew parallels with

1:29:55

somehow exposed ah young riders

1:29:57

art day in a sport

1:30:00

that's, well, it's amping up the

1:30:02

pressure on them, on their nervous

1:30:04

systems in a way and

1:30:06

the pressure to be ever

1:30:09

better prepared and ever more professional.

1:30:11

Enzo wrote, In the end, before

1:30:13

Pogacar tries to emulate Pantani's Giro

1:30:15

toward double, let's see how close

1:30:17

he gets, and to push the

1:30:19

memory of the Italian even further

1:30:21

away, not much has really changed.

1:30:23

The bikes are different, the calendar

1:30:25

is different, like nutrition and training

1:30:27

methods. Now altitude training camps have

1:30:29

become durrigurr and everything's computed

1:30:32

and quantified. But when

1:30:34

you drill down, they're all still young

1:30:36

men and women, all of them with

1:30:39

a story to write, crushed under the

1:30:41

weight of the big team's G-GAN-TESK budgets.

1:30:44

These powerful organisations have their claws

1:30:46

embedded in the riders' tender flesh.

1:30:49

We just need to recognise that and then decide

1:30:51

whether we want to carry on like this. Marco

1:30:55

Pantani, who died on the 14th of February 2004.

1:31:01

Rob, also next week we

1:31:03

have got a lot of racing. Let's tell

1:31:06

us briefly what is the... Our women's world

1:31:08

tour resumes with a UAE tour starting on

1:31:10

the 8th. The same day we've got men's

1:31:12

racing in Provence and an upgraded race in

1:31:15

Turkin, Antalya in the south as well. That's

1:31:17

now a 2.1. Racing

1:31:20

in Oman with a new muscat classic, I think it's

1:31:22

the second year of that, followed by the Tour of

1:31:24

Oman. The second year Tour of

1:31:26

Figueira, Champions Classic in Portugal. That's where Remco

1:31:28

Evenepoel is going to start his season, followed

1:31:30

by the Volto Algarve on the 14th, the

1:31:33

same day that the Buelta Ciclistanda

1:31:35

Lucia, the Ruta El Sol starts

1:31:37

as well. Before that as

1:31:39

well in Spain we've got Murcia Almeria and

1:31:43

the Graveli race in Chayén. So lots

1:31:45

coming up in the next week. Did

1:31:49

you mention France? Yes, Provence. Provence.

1:31:53

Provence where our good friend,

1:31:55

Lucky Larry Warbas, decathlon, agé

1:31:57

des aussières la monde aussières.

1:32:00

Larry Warbat will be making his seasons

1:32:02

debut and chaps

1:32:04

what a coincidence Larry will be on

1:32:06

the podcast next week to talk about

1:32:08

his seasons debut in Provence. So

1:32:12

until then I'm going to

1:32:15

say thanks to Rob and

1:32:17

thanks to Brian. We'll

1:32:19

be welcoming both of them

1:32:21

back very soon. But yes I've said until

1:32:24

then let's go to Brian. Ciao.

1:32:39

The second podcast was created

1:32:41

in 2013 by Richard Moore,

1:32:43

Daniel Free and Lionel Burney.