0:02

You are listening to Explore by

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The Cycling Podcast.

0:11

Well it's bank holiday Monday,

0:13

the day after the Giro d'Italia has finished. I'm out

0:15

for a little coffee ride with my friend

0:17

Andy, who regular listeners

0:20

to Explore will know was the genius,

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the Henri de Grange of the 12 Hills

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of Christmas ride. As we were just

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coming out of Not Watford, I

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thought I recognise that jersey up ahead and

0:32

as we got closer, sure enough, it

0:34

is someone wearing the Cycling Podcast map

0:36

jersey. I mean you can't miss it, it's such a distinctive

0:39

design.

0:39

And so pulled alongside and said

0:41

hello, and hello. Hi,

0:44

my name's Charles Berger, I live in

0:46

Maidenhead and I bumped into Lionel

0:49

this morning while I was doing

0:52

a training ride for Chase the Sun North

0:54

later this year. I

0:57

planned a route based around the 12 Hills of

0:59

Christmas, heading out from Maidenhead and

1:01

then back through the Chilterns. I think the 12 Hills

1:04

of Christmas has got a very expensive entry

1:06

fee, Andy, do you want to collect that now? No,

1:09

the roads are free, that's the beauty of cycling isn't

1:11

it? Tell me a bit about Chase the Sunset.

1:15

So it's a, well there's

1:17

four different versions of it, there's the UK South,

1:19

UK North, Ireland and Italy.

1:22

I'm doing the UK North version which starts

1:25

in Whitley Bay and travels

1:28

up to Ayr on the west coast of Scotland. You

1:31

set off at sunrise, so about

1:33

4.30am on the 24th of June, and 205 miles later and about 3,200 metres of

1:36

climbing,

1:39

you

1:42

hopefully arrive in Ayr before sunset. Just

1:44

in time for fish and chips or something on the seafront

1:47

there, glorious, that would be fantastic,

1:49

sunset ride into Ayr. We did that on the Tour

1:52

de Corse of course, riding into Ayr. Really

1:54

nice town, very nice town, all the golf

1:56

courses around there as well. Do you know that

1:59

part of the country at all?

1:59

from Whitley across? Not

2:02

really, I am from Dundee

2:04

in Scotland so sort of vaguely

2:06

near my stamping ground but not so

2:08

much. I very much enjoyed

2:10

Dundee as well with the new V&A down

2:13

on the waterfront, yeah really nice. So

2:15

you're riding back to Maidenhead today

2:17

via the 12 Hills of Christmas, is that the plan? Yes

2:20

so I left home about 7 this

2:22

morning and hoping to get back mid

2:25

to late afternoon. Lovely, well we

2:27

won't hold you up any longer. I think

2:29

you'll

2:29

be going down this way and we'll probably be sitting

2:32

on your wheel for a little while up the

2:34

other side. That's

2:37

absolutely fine, we'll give you a lead out into

2:40

what's the next hill here Andy? Well

2:42

we're just about to go down Pedley Hill

2:45

and then hit the Layton Buzzard

2:47

Road and straight up to Hudnall.

2:49

Yeah we're doing the two coffees of Monday

2:52

Morning Ride, very popular ride, very

2:54

popular ride round here but yeah we'll give

2:56

you a lead out. Lovely to meet you and looking

2:58

fantastic in the jersey, good

2:59

luck for the ride as well. Thank you. I

3:02

think after 74k so far I'm just about

3:04

ready for my first coffee.

3:15

My name is Lionel Burney and this is an episode

3:17

of Explore by The Cycling Podcast

3:20

and that was me out on the roads of Hertfordshire

3:22

meeting friend of the podcast Charles Berger

3:25

quite by chance. By the time

3:27

he got back to Maidenhead Charles had ridden 200 kilometers

3:30

with more than two and a half thousand meters of climbing,

3:33

quite some day out when you consider he incorporated

3:35

the 12 hills of Christmas route into his ride.

3:39

If you're listening it was lovely to meet you Charles and

3:41

good luck for the chase the Sun ride towards

3:43

the end of June. Now for

3:46

this episode of Explore I headed to Bath

3:48

in the southwest of England on the Giro

3:51

d'Italia second rest day to meet

3:53

two of the voices of cycling, Eurosport

3:55

GCN commentary box duo Rob Hatch

3:58

and Sean Kelly.

3:59

Rob's a familiar voice on the cycling podcast of

4:02

course, and not just because of his TV commentary.

4:05

He also used to share a house in London, and

4:07

in Mallorca too I think, with Daniel Friber,

4:10

the self-styled Homer cycling they

4:12

called it. Sean Kelly needs

4:14

no introduction, he won the Vuelta a Espana,

4:17

four green jerseys at the Tour de France, Milan

4:19

San Remo, Paris Roubaix, Liège Bastogne

4:21

Liège, the Tour of Lombardy, a

4:23

record seven editions of Paris Nice, all

4:25

in a row, and he was world number

4:28

one for most of the 1980s, the list goes on. And

4:31

for the past 25 years he's been

4:34

a co-commentator, starting out with David

4:36

Duffield, and now he's regularly

4:38

alongside Rob and Carlton Kirby for

4:40

the three grand tours. Some

4:43

listeners might know that I worked with Sean on his

4:45

autobiography Hunger, which came out 10

4:47

years ago.

4:48

Back in 2011 I spent a couple of weeks

4:50

in Paris during the Giro while he

4:53

was commentating on the race from Eurosports

4:55

Paris Studios. I interviewed

4:57

Sean for the book in the evenings, and we got

4:59

into a routine of going for a morning ride

5:01

at Longchon, a circuit a bit

5:03

like London's Richmond Park near the race

5:05

course from the Bois de Boulogne in the west of the city.

5:09

Anyway, I'd not seen Sean face-to-face

5:12

since well before lockdown, and I'd

5:14

not been for a bike ride with Rob since the Trainer

5:16

Road Challenge back in 2016, when Rob, Richard and

5:19

I spent months training for a four

5:21

kilometre individual pursuit on the track

5:24

in Manchester. Rob wouldn't forgive

5:26

me if I didn't point out that he won. While

5:29

working together at the grand tours, Rob and Sean

5:31

tried to go for a bike ride together as often as

5:34

they can, and I invited myself along for

5:36

their Rest Day ride. It

5:38

was a lot of fun, although we didn't spend

5:40

as much time talking about cycling as I'd intended.

5:43

One day I'll sit down with Sean and get him to tell some of his

5:46

stories for an episode of the podcast, but

5:48

for now this is more of a catch-up

5:50

with a couple of friends on two wheels. There

5:53

was a ride between two of South-West England's great

5:55

cities, and one that took a slightly

5:58

surreal diversion.

6:00

Yeah. Do

6:30

you think I need leg

6:32

warmers?

6:40

Yeah, you

6:43

do. I've been needing them since I left Spain.

6:45

I've been cold for a week and a half.

6:48

I think this is the warmest day of the year so far.

6:51

Must be 20. It must be 20.

6:54

It's on the border between leg warmers and shorts, isn't it?

6:56

I want to have cold legs. Never mind. Never

6:59

mind. I have a rule about leg and arm

7:01

warmers. They don't come off until... What's

7:04

the temperature? Well, he's on his

7:06

way, is he? I think... Let's

7:09

have a bet. I think he'll be in leg warmers.

7:12

I think he'll be in leg warmers. Will he

7:15

be in his old casket from

7:18

the late 80s? No, he's

7:20

got his own kit now it is. Sean Kelly, isn't

7:23

he? Are

7:25

we going to have a coffee before we go? I think so, yes.

7:28

I think he needs all the caffeine even for a coffee

7:30

ride. Yeah, yeah. Oh, glorious though,

7:33

isn't it? Beautiful. A little

7:35

bit of wind about, but

7:36

as long as I'm on the wheel, I'll be all right. Well

7:39

I'm hoping to be on the wheel. So I

7:41

was thinking you two would be at the front. I'm

7:43

going to nestle in. He's going to tail

7:46

off. Yeah, it is your day off. We need

7:48

to be protected for the final week. I've

7:50

had my yellow horse at a fight before. We

7:53

just had

7:55

a bet. I said you'd be in leg warmers.

7:58

Wow, that's, yeah, I'm surprised. It

8:00

must be warmer than I thought. Good

8:02

forecast maybe. Final week getting ready. You've

8:05

been ready waiting. Black jersey

8:08

right now, pink jersey by the end of the week.

8:13

Afternoon Sean. Good afternoon.

8:17

No leg warmers. I thought the rule was 25 degrees.

8:20

No, what's the rule with almond leg warmers? Well

8:23

the rule was 25. Still 20,

8:26

22 here. I

8:28

was saying to Rob, this is the nicest day of

8:31

the year so far here in England, I

8:33

think, weather wise. Well,

8:36

definitely for me, fourth

8:39

week of the Giro is pretty not

8:41

nice.

8:43

Second

8:46

week getting better and now it's looking good for the final

8:48

week and fingers crossed we get

8:50

the same for Giro. I

8:52

was going to say you're at least dry in the commentary box

8:55

you two aren't you? I mean, yeah, that

8:57

keeps you away from the elements. But as

9:00

it meant you've not been able to do much riding while you've

9:02

been here in Bath. No,

9:05

fourth week as I said a lot of rain. So

9:09

I don't do rain when

9:11

I'm out of Ireland.

9:13

I'm only a sunshine cyclist.

9:17

And of course, yeah down in my ark of

9:20

April for a couple of weeks. It's

9:22

very difficult when you're there for two

9:25

weeks, three weeks, 25, 26 degrees

9:28

and when you come back to this horrible weather

9:31

you need a

9:33

big motivation to go out. Been

9:35

running instead? Yes, I

9:38

started doing a bit of running. I haven't been running since

9:40

I was here last August,

9:43

September doing the Vuelta. So

9:46

yeah, I was trying to get back but Yeah,

9:50

two steps forward one step back. How's

9:53

the form though? Well

9:55

the form, biking or running? Biking.

9:58

Biking is a tough one. Okay, as I said I

10:00

was in Mallorca for a bit, you know, nice

10:03

sunshine training there, so

10:05

yeah, the form was quite good

10:07

finishing that, but of course,

10:09

biking. If you miss a

10:11

week or 10 days, your form

10:13

goes down very quickly, and the

10:15

older you get, you lose it

10:17

quickly, and it's harder to get back.

10:21

Let the listeners know how many kilometres

10:24

a year do you reckon you do these days? Do

10:27

you keep note? I'm old style, I'm

10:29

like Bocca Malema. Ha ha

10:32

ha. So

10:34

I don't, I just go out and ride for X number

10:36

of hours, and then roughly

10:39

I know how many kilometres. So I'm probably

10:41

doing 6,000, 7,000 per year, because

10:44

I do quite a bit in Mallorca, I also

10:46

do biking two or two

10:49

roads, I started that last year,

10:51

so I was there for three weeks. So

10:53

you know, you build up a lot of kilometres

10:56

in doing those events. Old school,

10:58

so no power meter, you're not monitoring

11:01

any data like that. Still

11:03

old school. Well, I have

11:05

no power meter because I have no power. Ha

11:08

ha ha. Ha ha ha.

11:10

All right. Well, we'll

11:12

see, won't we? We'll see. Just quickly before

11:14

we get a coffee, Rob, explain why you

11:17

two are here in Bath. The rest of

11:19

the Eurosport GCN team

11:21

are in West London,

11:23

aren't they? Stockley Park? Yes, the

11:25

VAR. That's when they did the VAR for the Premier

11:27

League. It's a huge television

11:30

studios. No, basically, Sean and

11:32

I had to commentate apart for a couple of

11:34

years with the pandemic of Jaús Aum

11:36

in Spain because there were rules that I

11:38

basically couldn't get in and out of the country for

11:40

a lot of the races. We

11:43

were back together last year for Paris-Nise

11:46

and we were all here in Bath actually at the GCN studios.

11:48

And we had such a good time last year being back

11:51

together again and just sort of having the grandeur

11:53

experience. And I think

11:55

it adds a little bit to our commentary that we can

11:57

be with each other and see each other talk about

11:59

it.

11:59

the pub afterwards over a pint and

12:02

we like... We can't attend the two drop, we wanted

12:04

to get away from the rest. Don't

12:06

say that, Honeer! We're

12:10

three minutes walk from the studio here and we

12:12

didn't fancy catching buses for

12:15

two hours to get to the studio and things

12:17

like that outside of London really. And I

12:19

guess if the weather had been nicer you'd have

12:21

been out on the bike a bit more than perhaps you'd been able

12:24

to. A little bit more variety to

12:26

the cycling down here than there is. Well you'd

12:28

have been kind of west

12:29

Londonish, you'd been Richmond Park I guess,

12:32

lots of Richmond Park. Perhaps

12:34

yes but then again it would have been really difficult to get in. I

12:36

mean where the studio is it's sort of isolated without

12:38

too many connections. It's not really

12:40

London, it's sort of the other side of Heathrow. Great

12:44

place to work and everything but we don't have to be on screen,

12:46

we're not on screen, we're not part of the thick crew. So we

12:49

decided that in work terms

12:51

we'd be a lot more rested. I mean you know what it's like doing a grantor,

12:53

it's hard work keeping it interesting. I'm

12:56

not pretending that it's a hard job in terms

12:58

of we're toiling down pit at 5am

12:59

in the morning. But we want to do a good job

13:02

when we're conscientious so we

13:04

save two hours a day by being here next to the studio

13:06

and we can use that for a bit of exercise for a bit of chat

13:08

about the race and it's a much nicer

13:10

experience. I was scared of Richmond Park, I'd

13:12

like to get hijacked. You'll

13:16

get lapped by the London Dynamo if you're there,

13:18

won't you? That's the other thing. You won't be

13:20

able to resist getting on the back of the train and

13:22

going round. Like I mean we were talking

13:24

last night Sean about our

13:27

Giro when we were in Paris. I came over

13:29

to spend

13:29

a few days in Paris and your

13:32

routine was to go and do laps of

13:34

Longchamp, the park in the Bois de Boulogne.

13:37

I mean it got quite competitive down there didn't it?

13:39

Yes it certainly did

13:42

and as you know

13:45

as a bike rider you like to just ride in a group

13:47

when you're riding alone. And

13:49

if you're going around Longchamp,

13:52

Richmond Park, whatever, doing these

13:54

laps it just gets so boring after

13:56

a number of laps you just want to

13:59

go to the pub. When

14:01

you're in a group you meet people, you talk

14:03

and then you end up doing maybe two hours,

14:06

two and a half hours. So yeah,

14:08

you get a nice training ride

14:10

in that way. But

14:12

yeah, it's

14:15

nice to be able to get out on the bike.

14:18

We're not doing the commentary wherever

14:21

we are and especially when

14:23

we're not on site anymore. It's

14:26

good for the head because in the studio

14:28

for many hours

14:29

the bike is amazing. It

14:32

just takes that pressure away to get out in the evening time

14:34

afterwards and you feel so much better after

14:36

doing an hour or two hours on the bike. I

14:39

remember those laps of Longchamp, there

14:41

were some characters down there weren't there. Do you remember the guy

14:43

who wore the pristine Mapai kit and

14:45

he had the old hairnet helmet like

14:47

the leather hairnet helmet, a bit like

14:50

a bunch of bananas on the top of his head. He

14:52

had a very eccentric arm gesture.

14:54

I don't know what the arm gesture was all about. Was he pointing

14:56

out obstacles or gesturing for

14:58

people to come through? He

14:59

was quite a character though, wasn't he? I

15:03

think he was, he thought

15:05

he was Tom Booner winning races, winning in

15:07

sprints because

15:09

he had all the kits. But yeah, he was making

15:11

those gestures with his arms. I

15:14

see him there a number of times and I remember that

15:18

ride we did, we had so much fun just riding behind

15:20

him. He was

15:22

every time making these gestures. You get

15:25

those characters and that's what you enjoy as well.

15:29

You get out there and meet

15:31

those people. You don't even

15:33

have to have a conversation with them. You see the way they ride

15:35

and the shapes they're throwing. Some

15:40

of them trying to be like the professionals.

15:44

That's the great thing about

15:46

biking. You can

15:50

ride with people that take

15:53

their, like the professionals. We

15:56

ride with the group there and you're not recognised so it's

15:58

great.

15:59

of talk all that bullshit.

16:02

Yeah, it's true, it's true though. There was

16:04

a real sense that you was dropping into something that

16:06

was established, but you weren't

16:09

familiar with anyone yet it felt comfortable,

16:11

like you were welcome. You know, no one, you know, you could

16:13

just drop in on the wheel, drop in with people, very

16:15

quickly in a day or two became part of that

16:19

little community of cyclists that must have been, you

16:21

know, it's been going for decades

16:24

with the peloton just gradually evolving,

16:27

new people coming and going, I

16:29

suppose that sums up cycling and

16:31

the fact that we're in a huge city, it's the

16:33

same in Richmond park, isn't it? You know, that

16:35

sense of everyone doing something that

16:37

they love, few laps in

16:40

the evening, people could drop in, do an

16:42

hour if they want. But like you say, there were people that

16:44

were there

16:45

doing five, six hours some days in the summer.

16:48

Yes, there were and you know,

16:50

there were people coming there. I got to

16:53

meet many people that were, you know, amateur

16:56

riders and you know, at a very good level and

16:58

they just come there and they do the couple

17:00

of hours there in the morning or in the evening time.

17:03

And yeah, it's

17:05

a great rendezvous pint. And

17:07

you know, you're always, you know, you're

17:10

always welcome there. You just drop into a group and

17:13

you just follow around and do what you like

17:15

and do as much as you like. And the

17:17

great thing there was,

17:18

you know, if you join a group

17:20

maybe of 10 or 12 guys,

17:22

old guys and

17:25

they don't try and drop you. Where if you go on Richmond

17:27

Park, you go into a group and they bloody

17:30

well just start speeding up and sprinting up the

17:32

hills and try to burn you off the wheel. They'd

17:36

probably recognize you in Richmond Park and they know

17:38

who you are. They know who they're trying to get. No, they

17:40

don't recognize me. I think they're guys new into

17:43

cycling and you

17:45

know, they're only here for a short number

17:47

of years. And just

17:50

the way they, you know, they

17:52

don't have the experience riding in a group

17:54

and a group of friends are in a club and they're

17:56

like, oh, you ride together and you ride X number

17:58

of hours. moments in the wheel they

18:00

look around and they speed it up and they look

18:03

around again and then they go faster and then

18:05

if they can't drop you if you're going well enough

18:07

the next time you come to Richmond Gate they just

18:10

turn off and go home. Reputations

18:14

matter for nothing in Richmond Park I think

18:16

yeah well look we can't sit here chatting all

18:19

afternoon and we can have a quick coffee before we go or

18:21

yeah let's have a coffee and then talk about where

18:23

we're gonna go. Rob

18:30

while Shaun's getting the coffee is

18:32

I've always wanted to ask this on the

18:46

record

18:52

you're talking with your natural voice here not your

18:54

commentary voice it's always intrigued me why

18:56

you drop your natural voice or you adopt

18:59

your commentary voice for the commentary we're

19:02

talking to an international audience and

19:04

I also think that

19:06

I should be a bit more easy

19:09

to understand for everybody we've got people watching whose

19:11

natives language English but they've never

19:13

been to Lancashire before we've got people watching

19:15

whose native language isn't English we're in quite

19:17

a unique position I think broadcasting we do it's

19:20

not just for our market and I think a lot of people forget

19:22

about that

19:23

was it sort of you know

19:25

going back to the beginning of your career do you think it

19:27

would have been harder to break in with a

19:30

regional accent no no and

19:33

where I started is different certainly

19:36

if you're talking about a traditional path I think it's actually

19:38

more of an advantage now I've been at the BBC and

19:40

they've asked me to talk more northern because

19:42

that apparently is what what

19:45

people like nowadays and I'm

19:48

not ashamed of it as you know I love talking

19:50

in dialect with us a lot and I even write

19:52

texts in dialect and things like that and

19:55

Spanish are speaking dialect they're speaking Canary

19:57

Islands dialect and but again I think if

19:59

I'm doing something

19:59

Spanish. I also think it's polite

20:02

to try and be understood by everybody isn't it? That's

20:06

what I believe in anyway. You're very

20:08

fortunate you've got a real aptitude

20:10

and skill with languages. How many languages do

20:12

you speak? Properly,

20:15

three and a half.

20:17

Half English, French,

20:20

Spanish and Italian. But then

20:22

I live in the Balearic Islands now

20:24

so I understand a bit of Catalan and get by in that. The

20:27

Latin language I think when you speak two or three I can

20:29

read Portuguese, Romanian things

20:31

like that but I wouldn't say that I speak them. It's

20:34

a big advantage in a sport of cycling. I certainly

20:37

notice it as I get older. I've been trying to pick up, trying

20:40

to improve my French and trying to pick up a bit of Italian

20:43

on the quiet. But it's a huge

20:45

advantage isn't it when you can

20:47

speak the language of the sport,

20:49

Italian, Spanish, French. He's

20:52

bought some baklava back. That's

20:54

a language I really, I almost went to university

20:56

to learn Turkish. There we go. Probably

20:58

because of looking at things like baklava and the

21:00

great food. Look at that. That's

21:03

wonderful isn't it? All them calories in there.

21:06

Talking languages, Sean, how many

21:08

languages do you speak? Well

21:13

I suppose French I could claim I can

21:15

speak and Flemish

21:18

understand quite a lot but I have more

21:20

difficulty now. When you're away

21:22

and you're not practicing and you're

21:25

in conversation with people all the time you

21:27

just slowly lose it. And

21:31

Spanish when I was riding with Cass, all

21:33

the team personnel, 70%,

21:36

60% of the

21:38

riders were Spanish so I had a pretty

21:40

good hold on Spanish

21:43

and was able to struggle through interviews

21:46

with radio on that but now I've

21:48

lost so much others. And

21:51

what about the commentary? How many

21:53

years have you been doing this job as the

21:55

co-commentator? Because you started out with

21:58

EuroSport with David Duffield.

21:59

the late great David Duffield didn't you? Yes

22:03

I did and when

22:06

I retired in 94 I remember

22:08

Duffield he came

22:10

over to my retirement event and immediately

22:12

he was talking about coming

22:15

to do some commentary on the classics and

22:17

I said oh no I said I want to get away

22:19

from cycling for a while um

22:22

you know I just want him get my

22:24

head cleared and so I took

22:26

a number of years out and 98 was the

22:29

first time I did some commentary

22:31

in Dublin when the Tour of France started

22:33

and then I went

22:35

on from there I did some classic races and

22:38

yeah I started doing

22:40

first tours

22:42

were a week and then I

22:44

started doing a full tour and then ever

22:47

since I've been the tour and yeah

22:49

so I have what 23

22:51

years Tour of France

22:53

commentary

22:55

if my maths are right 23 or 24 and then

22:57

yeah X number of G-Rows and Vulte

22:59

so yeah

23:01

I think it's knocking on the door to retirement

23:06

you obviously enjoy it though you you

23:08

know the I know you're

23:10

not on the road with this race but you've been on the road

23:12

with the Tour in the past um

23:15

just the sort of the sense of the journey of the

23:17

Grand Tour you obviously enjoy being in

23:19

the commentary box adding a bit of colour adding

23:22

trying to explain what's going on in the race yeah

23:25

I enjoyed a lot and um I

23:27

don't think if if you weren't enjoying it you

23:29

just couldn't do it and I certainly if I wasn't

23:32

enjoying it I wouldn't be able to uh continue

23:34

on doing it um not being

23:36

on site of course

23:37

yeah I miss a bit I

23:40

think for me the tour was the one because you

23:42

know there's so much with the tour and you

23:44

meet all the X-Pro's that I rode with

23:47

and you know you meet so many of those guys and

23:50

that is the great thing about the Tour of France I

23:52

mean famously Sean you didn't ride

23:54

the Giro until the very

23:57

end of your career when you started it once is

23:59

that right have I?

23:59

remember that right? Yes with

24:02

Festina it

24:06

wasn't on my program

24:08

at the beginning of the year but as

24:13

the season started out it was the

24:17

organiser said if I wasn't riding with

24:19

the team taking the start they would not

24:21

take the team so Miguel

24:25

Moreno the director of sport he said you have to go to

24:27

the two for the first week and then you can

24:29

leave and end

24:33

of the fourth week then he said I had to do another bit

24:35

and I think ended up doing about 11 or 12 days.

24:37

I mean Jean de Grubaldi

24:42

this is the other one that I remember he

24:45

was your sports director in the

24:47

80s he was very keen for you to do all three

24:49

grand tours in a season wasn't he and back then

24:52

of course if Welter was in the springtime

24:55

followed very quickly by the duo and then the

24:57

Tour de France and you had a novel way of

24:59

getting out of that

24:59

because he announced it in the press didn't

25:02

he one year I think 1985 he announced it. Yes

25:05

he announced a few things

25:09

and Jean

25:11

de Grubaldi of course as I have said many

25:13

times he was a big part of my successful

25:16

career he had you know some

25:20

really great ways

25:22

and methods of training and diet and

25:25

and but he had some also bad

25:27

ones like doing

25:29

the pre-grand tours which you know

25:32

he was talking a lot to

25:34

me about it and

25:36

yeah I eventually pulled

25:39

a sickie somewhere or a bad knee

25:41

or something. Bordeaux Paris was another

25:43

one he tried that for many years and

25:45

I was you know always scared of Bordeaux Paris

25:47

that he'd be going to be you know totally

25:51

wrecked and you know just burned out

25:53

for a number of weeks and maybe a number of months and

25:56

he said no no he said it's good

25:58

for you it just blocks the whole

25:59

body and so every time

26:02

I used to get just a sore knee

26:04

coming before the Bordeaux

26:07

Paris. 600 kilometers

26:09

Bordeaux Paris wasn't it with

26:12

a big chunk of it behind motorbikes. That

26:15

right? Have I got that right?

26:17

But yeah a long

26:19

day. I mean 18 hours I think it

26:21

generally would take for the winner. Yeah

26:24

it used to start I think very

26:26

late at night maybe 10 or 12 o'clock Saturday

26:29

night and ride through the night

26:32

and then finish you know in

26:34

the afternoon and yeah there

26:36

was I think at least 50%

26:39

or 60% was ridden

26:41

just in the group and

26:44

then you get behind the journey so the final was a 200 or 250

26:46

or 300 kilometers you know it was just unthinkable when you

26:53

yes torture and

26:56

yeah so yeah you can understand why I

26:58

was never in favor of riding it because when you do

27:00

yeah the yearly season and

27:03

you know do all the races and

27:05

you know it was the one that I just couldn't

27:08

could not get my mind around it ever taking part.

27:10

And being Sean Kelly you couldn't start that one

27:13

and then stop you know halfway and

27:15

say oh no I've not I'm not

27:17

going any further you'd have to you'd be kind

27:19

of obliged to finish it I guess. Well

27:22

the problem is you just stop if you go there

27:24

and you stop after 100 k or 150 kilometers

27:27

then you just sit in the team car or uh

27:29

the helpers car for the rest

27:32

of the night and uh until

27:34

you get to Paris so it's

27:36

not a nice one either so yeah the best thing is

27:39

just get a sore knee beforehand. Where

27:44

are we riding though? Where what's the plan?

27:46

Weather's

27:47

beautiful so we've got all

27:49

afternoon what are we going to do? Well

27:52

we're going to go out the old railway line

27:54

to Bristol which is very

27:57

safe you don't have you know all

27:59

these

27:59

cars chopping you up and blowing

28:02

at you it's very relaxed

28:05

and it's you know very chilling

28:07

out. Scenery is great

28:09

as well because I really don't know this part

28:11

of England I mean it's all down south to me down

28:13

here I just thought it was you

28:15

know this little posh village and

28:18

well village city it's a city officially it's

28:20

a small town really isn't it bath very

28:23

very pleasant but once you're out you're

28:25

very quickly out of town aren't you on that old railway line

28:27

and you've got a few hills around and I didn't

28:29

even realize this part of the country was that hilly either

28:33

you know there's they're not gigantic hills but

28:35

they're short sharp steep classicy type

28:37

hills aren't they and we've got you know the river

28:39

to look at some nice country pubs that we might

28:42

or might not stop at sometimes in the evening. Is

28:44

this the time to mention that I've got a bit of a sore

28:46

knee I don't know I mean just

28:48

staying on the flat don't worry

28:50

don't worry this is more of a skeletal place than a

28:52

rendez-fondre today.

29:18

The cycling podcast is supported

29:20

by Science in Sport. Science

29:23

in Sport. Fuelled by

29:26

Science.

29:27

Who's leading the way? Sean

29:30

leading the way? Yes so we lead

29:32

out.

29:45

Nice short stage rolling

29:47

out after 1 p.m. small

29:57

section of cobbles. Ahh,

30:02

glorious, absolutely glorious.

30:07

And we'll roll out of Bath and pick up

30:09

this railway line.

30:26

We head it from Bath, famous for its spas,

30:29

its Georgian architecture and tea rooms,

30:31

to Bristol, which is one of England's

30:33

burgeoning cities for artists and musicians.

30:36

The street artist and activist Banksy is

30:38

supposedly from Bristol, and even if

30:40

he isn't, his work and his influence

30:42

is everywhere. Bristol also

30:44

gave the world trip-hop. Massive attack

30:46

and tricky are from the city, and Portishead

30:49

are from, well, from Portishead, which is

30:51

only a few miles along the coast. Once

30:55

we reached Bristol, we had a choice to make,

30:57

and I certainly didn't imagine that my career in cycling

30:59

journalism would one day take me to

31:01

the scene of one of Britain's most celebrated comedy

31:04

programmes with a double Paris-Roubaix winner. But

31:06

here we are.

31:20

Well, I feel like you need to know that of course

31:22

coming into Bristol there, very twisty turny,

31:24

bit of road furniture. You two

31:26

had the advantage there. Oh, Kelly

31:29

on the front, whizzing round the corners

31:31

with his bell. Give us a tinkle on the bell.

31:35

Very wise. He's got about 25 of

31:37

those at home, because every time he comes he forgets to bring

31:39

one and then goes to buy one at the shop. Keeping

31:43

the Bath bicycle bell industry in

31:45

business. I'm thinking

31:47

coming into Bristol what a contrast with Bath

31:50

is. I think they're two great cities, great city. I

31:53

really like Bristol. I think it's fantastic.

31:55

We stopped here for a

31:57

night on the way back from a holiday in Devon last

31:59

year.

31:59

year but

32:02

I was looking out for the tower block,

32:04

the famous tower block. Now it's in Mandela House,

32:07

apparently it's next to the football stadium and I'd

32:09

like to come out one day and

32:11

properly plan it and have a look and have me picture

32:14

taken there or something like that. There's

32:16

a guy I actually work with in cycling in Belgium who's

32:18

the biggest only for the North is font. He's

32:20

obviously a Flemish guy because they

32:22

get the BBC over there and that's why there's an

32:24

impeccable levels of English usually up there

32:27

and every time he sees me he's one

32:29

of the sort of, he sort of signs

32:31

off all the deal on satellites and things like that.

32:33

He's always hanging around the TV compound

32:35

of Flanders classic races. He says, cushty, cushty.

32:38

He's always doing a Delway impression. Bonnet

32:40

de Douche.

32:41

I mean bonnet de Douche sounds like some kind of cycling

32:44

phrase doesn't it? You know. But

32:46

they are bonnet de Douche's on the other end, isn't they, on top of

32:48

their helmets to stop it raining. For

32:51

those who are wondering what on earth we're going on about,

32:53

listeners in America perhaps, Only

32:56

Fools and Horses, one of the greatest sitcoms ever

32:58

made anywhere I would say.

33:00

Brilliant sitcom about the Trotters

33:02

who live in Peckham

33:05

in South East London but the Nelson

33:07

Mandela House, the tower block where they lived, the

33:10

exteriors were shot here in Bristol weren't

33:12

they? And I think you're right, it's down by Ashton Gate, the

33:15

football ground. Bristol City's football ground I think. Big

33:19

Only Fools and Horses fan, Shaun? No.

33:22

Not a big fan.

33:23

But I'd like to go and see the block.

33:26

Are we far away? Well have a look

33:28

on Google Maps shall we? We're here, we might as well. We

33:31

might as well. It can't be far can it? I'll

33:33

Google it.

33:48

Do you know something about the Only Fools and Horses

33:50

theme music? Something unique about it, maybe

33:52

not unique but notable? No, I

33:55

know the person that did the graphics used to work

33:57

with us in the telly somewhere, that's the one.

33:59

final graphics, he used to be a producer on

34:02

some of the volleyball shows, but no, tell me something about

34:04

the music. Well, the opening title music

34:06

and the closing title music are basically

34:09

different songs. Ah,

34:11

they are, yes they are, they are.

34:13

No income tax, no V8,

34:16

no money back, no

34:18

guarantee, black or white, rich

34:21

or poor. I

34:22

once had a long running argument

34:25

with a very good friend of mine called Simon Ricketts about

34:27

this. He refused to believe.

34:30

This was before like you could get facts

34:32

at your fingertips on your phone. I

34:34

thought you could go on Saint Google. It was

34:37

a pub based argument and I said

34:39

no, the tunes are different and

34:42

we got into a situation where I was singing

34:44

the two different tunes and then he would sing

34:46

one but then morph it into the other one and claim

34:48

that it was the same tune. This argument went

34:50

on for weeks and weeks. I mean he was drunk. I

34:53

mean... Well that's where

34:55

the wrong went wrong. You're always

34:57

wrong when you're drunk. Here we go, here we go. Saint

35:00

Googley, Saint Google tells

35:02

us that we are 16 minutes away by

35:04

bike. Oh, we, three miles, that's

35:06

not far, is it? 5k, we can do that. Shall

35:08

we do it? Yes, do it. Come on. A

35:11

picture of us outside there. No money back, no guarantee. This

35:13

is us.

35:15

Let's do us. What's

35:18

the cycling equivalent of a Trevor Francis tracksuit?

35:25

A top sport Volandra large

35:29

jersey, the ones that went out of fashion about 10

35:31

years ago and everything went aero. No?

35:34

Or one of those old helmets that

35:36

you used to wear that didn't really have much protection on. Yes.

35:40

The Pudding helmet. The Pudding helmet. The Pudding

35:42

helmet. The one that, is

35:45

this the Milan San Remo one one? The

35:47

one you had to put on? No, that was a modern

35:49

one. That was a modern one, was

35:51

it? San Remo. Frank Harley. Oh,

35:54

that's right, yeah. The Frank Harley Peace Pot,

35:57

the Belgiums call it. Excuse me. What's

36:01

the famous for that? Peace Potter!

36:06

Oh brilliant, that's one of my favourite stories. This

36:09

was Milan San Remo you won with Vestina

36:11

wasn't it? And you had a helmet sponsorship deal? And

36:14

you went back to the car and wore the helmet

36:16

for the last, what I don't know, 50k or something?

36:18

Is that right? Yes, about the final

36:20

of 50k. Before we got to the cappos. And

36:27

a lot of people said that Kelly had a big bonus

36:30

if he could win with the helmet but there

36:32

was no bonus. It was just that I

36:35

was feeling pretty good in Terino

36:37

Dratico so I said for the descent,

36:40

depending on what's happened here and where I am, I'll

36:43

take all risk. I

36:45

was happy I had

36:46

it when I went skeltering down

36:48

that descent. This was

36:50

only a year after the whole peloton had gone

36:52

on strike at Paris-en-Yce wasn't it? Over

36:56

the introduction of the mandatory helmet

36:58

rule that the UCI was bringing in in 1991. I

37:02

think you'd crashed out already in Paris-en-Yce

37:04

but the riders went on strike. There was a lot of debate about

37:06

whether the helmet should be

37:09

mandatory or whether it should be just up

37:11

to the rider to decide wasn't there around that time?

37:14

Yes, that's right I was out

37:16

of Paris-en-Yce. There had

37:18

to be the rule there where you

37:20

could throw your helmet off if it was a mountaintop

37:22

finish all of that crazy

37:25

ideas. And then of course they wanted

37:27

to enforce that you had to wear the helmet from

37:31

start to finish in the race. Then there

37:33

was that strike in Paris-en-Yce so it was

37:36

pretty close after that

37:38

that I was using the helmet. We

37:43

were later to believe the helmets were safer

37:45

than the ones we were using the Sarge

37:48

helmet. So that was the

37:50

reason I was putting it on. Thinking

37:53

about safety and I think I was

37:56

ready to take all risks at that time but it was my last

37:59

throw of the dice in the pit. big classic. What

38:01

did you think of Van der Poel's descent this year? That

38:03

was pretty impressive wasn't it? Yes very

38:05

impressive and yeah to be nice to

38:07

see the times I haven't really went

38:09

into that but I think now of course

38:12

with the bikes and the brakes and all of that the

38:14

bigger tires I think much better grip and

38:18

yeah the science has to be faster but we'd be nice

38:20

to see what the difference would be. Well

38:22

let's go and go and see if we

38:24

can see Del Boy and Rodney and Grandad.

38:28

You were in the water? No that's

38:29

on Calalba. Is it? Yeah.

38:56

I never thought my

38:59

career would culminate in

39:01

taking a picture of Sean

39:07

Kelly outside Nelson

39:09

Mandela house from Only Fools and Horses. It's actually

39:11

Whitemead house a stone's

39:13

throw from Ashton Gate football club football

39:16

ground which is home of Bristol City and

39:19

there we are. Yeah

39:20

me too we need a picture

39:23

of us. Only

39:26

Fools and Horses outside who's gonna

39:28

be who? Del Rodney Uncle

39:30

Albert. Anyway

39:38

Sean tell me about your

39:40

comment about my socks over leg warmers on

39:42

the way down.

39:43

In terms of etiquette is this a big no-no?

39:48

No it's not because I do it myself and I wear

39:51

leg warmers. There we go. We're in

39:53

the club. Every

39:56

time I post a picture of myself with my socks

39:58

outside my leg warmers I get comment. It's

40:00

as regular as clockwork. You can get comments

40:02

to the way though as well, it's just one of those things

40:04

in it in life. That

40:07

and putting your bike upside down if you take

40:09

your wheel out, resting it on the

40:12

saddle and the brake hoods, upside

40:14

down. Yes. Is that that's an honor? Yes.

40:18

Why? Because

40:23

it's not good

40:26

for your saddle. I'm clutching

40:28

for an answer there. Even Sean Kelly

40:30

can't answer that one. I must

40:33

admit I've done that and I always,

40:35

I'm in a quandary. If you do your back wheel,

40:38

you don't want to rest all your rear mech

40:40

and everything on the floor, do you? No, but you lay

40:42

your bike down on the opposite side to the rear

40:45

mech and also

40:47

to get the wheel in. It's

40:50

much more difficult to get the wheel when the bike is turned upside

40:52

down. So when you have the, when you

40:54

have the bike the normal way, like we see

40:56

the two, the France,

40:58

the bike is, you know, they don't turn up the bike upside

41:00

down.

41:01

Yeah, but they're not changing their own tires or

41:03

wheels, are they? No, but

41:05

it must be the best way to do

41:08

it. If the pros are doing it, we

41:09

have to do like the pros. There

41:13

we are. There we are. Well, quick picture

41:15

then outside Nelson Mandela house slash white

41:17

meat house and then back across

41:19

the city. Yeah, that wind's blowing. That wind's blowing.

41:22

It's a tailwind arm, shall we? Sorry,

41:24

what was that, Sean? What was that? Well, Robert Sains

41:26

is wind blowing. I said, yeah, it's

41:28

going to be a tailwind. He doesn't know

41:30

because he's been sitting on since we left Bart.

41:35

Alligations, that's shocking allegations,

41:37

really. I mean, if

41:39

the little percentage graphic was

41:42

on the screen,

41:42

it would, I

41:44

don't know what it would show. If they had me work data

41:46

up, it'd be showing I'd be up to 21. I'd

41:48

be on the stress scale. I was

41:51

going to say, yeah, the Bristol bath

41:54

cycle path or the Bristol bath cycle

41:56

path, depending on where you're from.

41:58

Listen,

41:59

I was going to give the burry

42:02

and berry answer so you're wrong. It's a day off, give

42:04

me a rest. It's bath innit?

42:07

Ah, you don't say aww

42:08

when you're learning your vowels. There's no aww

42:10

in bath is there? No you're right. Wrong

42:13

again. Wrong again. It's

42:16

like the old burry-burry thing. You don't catch your bez, do you?

42:18

You catch your buzz. Like

42:24

I should dialect.

42:32

How are

42:40

we going to find our way back to the cycle path? I

42:44

know the way. Follow me. How?

42:48

Have you got something, are you like a homing pigeon? You know,

42:50

just know where we're going. Yes, I know where I'm

42:52

going. Just years of riding,

42:55

never got lost on a training ride. Yes,

42:58

you get lost, but back

43:00

in my time. Back

43:03

in my day. When we used

43:05

to go out for training rides

43:07

before races, we had none of this

43:10

modern technology.

43:13

So we had to just find our way. So when you ride

43:15

out, you always keep your eye

43:17

where you're going. So I

43:21

think I know. Well we'll put that

43:23

to the test now, shall we? Excellent.

43:25

I'm on GPS.

43:27

So you reckon

43:29

left?

43:37

I'd

43:39

say so. I thought there were some buildings

43:41

that we'd seen already. However, I've already

43:43

been one once. I've already been

43:46

wrong once. Sean, you

43:48

reckon it's straight on? Yes,

43:50

straight on. The last time I was here, 35 years

43:54

ago, in the tour of Britain, a

43:58

lot more Woomy Street.

43:59

and the little bit is lost now. I

44:02

think it's right. I think it's up there and right.

44:04

What does the hammerhead say? Well, that's it you

44:07

see.

44:08

Do you see where we go? Where

44:11

we come down? Yeah, it's up

44:13

there and right. It's

44:15

definitely not left then. Oh well. Hammerhead

44:17

wins. Yeah, it does I'm afraid. It

44:19

does.

44:21

There we go. There we go.

44:27

Which

44:31

way is it Sean? It's this way. Yeah.

44:40

You're on the puck

44:40

already? I recognise it. I'll

44:45

never doubt you again. Brilliant. He's

44:48

come up trumps there pretty well. Not

44:52

bad. That's

44:54

the magic, isn't it? It's like a thick

44:56

tent. Yeah. Incredible.

45:02

Shoot. Shoot that out of the blue door. Cycling podcast

45:04

team car at the back of the pack please. That's

45:08

Seppikay, the voice of Radio Tour, to remind

45:10

me to tell you that this episode of

45:12

Explore is sponsored by the Hammerhead

45:14

Kuru2 Cycle Computer, which

45:16

is the most advanced GPS cycling

45:18

computer available today. All

45:21

of our listeners out there can get a free heart rate

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45:26

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45:36

the Bristol to Bath Railway

45:38

path because it was pretty much entirely

45:41

flat. But the climber feature

45:43

really comes into its eye, especially when riding

45:45

on less familiar roads, because it tells you

45:48

how far there is to the top of the climb, what

45:50

the gradient is on the way, and then

45:52

once you've reached the top, how far it is to

45:54

the next climb. Now I find that

45:57

sort of data really encouraging because

45:59

all of a sudden... 400 meters or 500 meters

46:01

doesn't feel like an awfully long way and

46:04

you can see well I'm over the worst of it It

46:06

was 8.9 percent just back there the

46:08

maximum between here and the top is only 4.5 percent

46:11

I can handle that somehow it gives me

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that little bit of information that

46:15

helps me to Measure my

46:18

effort the other great thing about it is

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the mapping and the touchscreen Which is

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really responsive and as you heard

46:24

on our ride the mapping came into

46:26

its own because after our little detour Down

46:29

to the building that served as the exterior

46:31

tower block in the sitcom only falls

46:34

and horses We had to find our way back to

46:36

the railway path Across the city

46:38

now Sean was very confident He thought

46:40

he could find it just by following his nose as if

46:42

he's some kind of homing pigeon Rob

46:45

didn't have a cycle computer So it

46:47

was down to me to just well

46:49

let things unfold and see how it went

46:52

and it was quite amusing Because at one point

46:54

Rob thought we needed to go one way Sean

46:56

thought we needed to go another way And me

46:59

and the hammerhead well we knew the way because

47:01

I was just following the line back the way

47:03

we'd come and so the hammerhead

47:05

found us got us all the way back

47:07

to the start of the cycle path and Well

47:10

it came in very handy If

47:12

you'd like to give the karoo to a go and you

47:14

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47:19

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47:28

of the karoo too

47:53

You

48:07

uphill into a headwind out

48:16

of the saddle rob hatch making

48:18

his move kelly

48:20

just sits waiting

48:22

I

48:26

think I'll leave the commentary to you Rob arms

48:33

are locked and

48:38

the

48:41

Avocet of Ackrington

48:44

has taken the points at the top of the climb you

48:50

wish you had leg warmers

48:51

on now boys

49:21

Rob what has cycling given you?

49:24

friendship I'm sitting here with you two now that I'm

49:26

sure we wouldn't have met otherwise a lot

49:30

of confidence I probably didn't have

49:32

never in a particularly confident person

49:35

it's helped me you know I was already

49:38

broadcasting but I guess it's helped me find

49:41

the place in broadcasting that I

49:43

could concentrate on because I was doing a lot of different things

49:46

but most importantly I love travel

49:48

anywhere I was lucky enough to try and travel anywhere

49:50

and languages but it's taken me to towns

49:52

and villages that I would never ever ever

49:55

have even thought about visiting and

49:57

not just the nice ones but even the not so

49:59

nice ones

49:59

just places and experiences that I've had

50:02

and you know even here

50:04

that I would have come to Bath really if I

50:06

hadn't been for work or places we've

50:08

gone on a tour and the genome places like that so

50:11

yeah I'd say friendship travel. Yeah

50:14

I was gonna say the same thing really

50:16

because the grand tours that sense

50:19

of journey takes you to all

50:21

sorts of places like you say that you wouldn't necessarily

50:25

have visited and I regret in

50:27

the early years not keeping a good

50:29

enough log of where I stayed and what

50:32

you know what I saw you know when I was in my early 20s

50:34

just starting out I kind of just didn't

50:36

really think that by the time you're in your late

50:39

40s those things might be important and there's

50:41

little towns and villages in the tour that

50:44

were on the tour route that I can't remember where

50:46

they were I've got a rough idea of where

50:48

do we stay that

50:49

particular day I've asked the people I've traveled

50:52

with and they haven't got a record of it I

50:54

know there are riders who have kept meticulous

50:57

records of every hotel they've stayed in

50:59

or just

51:02

sort of building up a list of places

51:04

to visit when they retire in slightly different

51:06

circumstances. Were you like that

51:08

Sean did you take it all in when you were racing

51:11

around Europe or was it

51:14

was it just one place the

51:16

next place? No

51:19

took very little in and

51:22

it was stage 9 going from

51:24

A to B and

51:27

you know that is the difference when

51:30

you're a rider and when you're walking for

51:32

TV you see so much of

51:35

yeah the country if it's a Tour of France or

51:37

whatever tour you're in the towns

51:39

you go to you know you see more of the

51:41

town because you get out in the evening time but

51:44

when you're a rider

51:44

like you're like a race offs

51:46

you have blinkers on and you just get

51:48

on the road and yeah you

51:50

finish your day your stage and you

51:52

get into the car now it's getting to the bus

51:55

and you know you you you

51:57

just go to your hotel but

51:59

I think the modern day

52:02

rider, they're probably taking

52:04

more of an interest where they're travelling in that part. In

52:08

my day, I wasn't one and there was a lot of other

52:10

riders as well. I think it was the

52:13

same way of thinking. But

52:16

yeah, totally different from bike rather to travelling

52:18

around, doing the TV work.

52:21

It's a totally different

52:23

Tour of France in that respect.

52:25

I mean, without the bath Bristol

52:27

bath classic, which we've just invented,

52:29

you wouldn't have seen Nelson Mandela

52:32

House, Shaun. I mean, that's what

52:34

cycling has given you. Yes,

52:36

well, that's

52:39

further down the list unfortunately. But

52:43

yeah, these little things are nice to

52:46

go and see. And

52:49

yeah, that's, as

52:52

I said, it just, cycling

52:54

brings you so much. And

52:55

I suppose it's a sport as well because it's

52:58

outdoors and it's all over France.

53:00

If you're doing other sports, you're in a stadium

53:02

maybe and you just go to one city. Like

53:05

a Tour of France, when you travel

53:07

around with the race, which we were doing for

53:09

many years, you

53:11

just go to so many towns

53:14

and villages and you drive the route

53:16

and you see the last 50k

53:18

and you see all of those villages. It's

53:21

an amazing journey. What did you think

53:23

of my idea of riding around Ireland

53:25

next year? Do you want to join for a stage

53:27

or two? Well, when

53:30

you're there and

53:32

we'll have a look at the forecast, the

53:35

long range forecast. I mean, the

53:37

long range forecast is about three

53:39

days maximum in Ireland because any more they

53:42

can forecast it and even three days

53:44

they get a ******* run. So

53:48

yeah, ring me the night before

53:50

and I'll see what it's

53:52

looking like and I might join if the weather

53:54

is

53:55

splitting the stones. Any part

53:57

of Ireland you'd particularly recommend? while

54:00

there's great parts of Ireland, you know the

54:02

west, down the west coast it's

54:07

just beautiful when you get nice weather, but

54:09

when you get wet windy weather

54:12

it's a big shit of a place. Is

54:19

today your actual birthday or are

54:22

we staying tight lipped on that? Yesterday.

54:27

Happy birthday for yesterday. Yesterday was the official.

54:30

Happy birthday. And the cycling of course the 24th. That's

54:34

what's... He's the

54:36

king, he's got an official birthday and his own

54:38

birthday.

54:53

This has been an episode of Explore by the

54:55

Cycling Podcast. It was recorded by me

54:57

Lionel Burney and was produced by Adam

54:59

Bowie.

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