0:01

You're listening to Comedy Central coming

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to you from New York City, the only city

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in America. It's the Daily Show

0:12

Today, hut Bucks

0:15

are talking the

0:17

history of drag. Here,

0:19

Trusty McMillan, talcom

0:22

It's the Daily Show with Driver Nowelcome

0:38

everybody, Welcome to the Day Show. Thank

0:40

you, thank you, thank

0:44

you for being here. Thank you for being Yes, thank you for being

0:46

you. Take a seat to everybody. We have got

0:48

a great show for you tonight. Donald

0:51

Trump is now beefing with the Constitution.

0:54

Dun't say. Sloan gets into drag and

0:56

artificial intelligence could replace

0:58

us all or has its already. So

1:01

let's do this people. Let's come straight into today's

1:03

headlines. All

1:11

right. Before we get into the big

1:13

stories, let's catch up on a few other things going

1:15

on in the world, starting with the

1:18

World Cup. On Saturday,

1:20

the world's biggest sportsing event kicked off

1:22

the round of sixteen, with the Netherlands

1:24

scoring yet another victory in

1:26

the United States, learning firsthand why they call it

1:29

the knockout stages. And

1:31

this was especially humiliating for the US because

1:34

the Dutch team plays in those little wooden shoes.

1:36

So but

1:38

but don't be sad. Don't be said. The good news for America

1:41

is the next World Cup will be in the

1:43

US, which

1:47

means which means

1:50

all the players will be allowed to use guns.

1:53

Don't worry, they don't worry. They can't use

1:55

their hands to shoot them. Should be interesting. In

1:59

international news, after months of protests

2:01

over its strict Hidjab laws, Iran

2:03

is reportedly considering abolishing

2:06

its infamous morality police. Yeah,

2:12

that's right, and

2:15

if that happened, it will be wild. Iran might defund

2:17

the police before Milwaukee. Speaking

2:19

of morality police, some news out

2:21

of the U. S. Supreme Court this morning. The Justice

2:23

has heard arguments on whether a Colorado based

2:26

web designer can refuse to build websites

2:28

for gay weddings, which she

2:31

says violates her religious

2:33

beliefs. And

2:35

I'm sorry, but what is this

2:38

web designer's process that

2:40

making a wedding website violates

2:42

her religious beliefs? Well,

2:45

it's just like, okay, I'm adding your

2:47

hotel block info, time

2:50

and dat of ceremony, a hard court

2:52

video of the two of you reach each other, and

2:54

done out

2:58

of here. Man. All right, let's move on to some the biggest

3:00

stories of the day, starting with Twitter. It's what Elon

3:02

Musk vote for his midlife crisis instead of a Lamborghini.

3:05

Over the weekend, Elon released

3:08

the so called Twitter Files, which

3:10

many conservatives had hoped would

3:12

prove that Twitter colluded with Democrats

3:15

to sense and news about Hunter Biden's

3:17

laptop during the election.

3:20

Instead, they mostly just showed

3:23

the Biden campaign asking Twitter to

3:25

take down nude photos of

3:27

Hunter Biden. So

3:30

yeah, sorry, everyone, if you want to see naked

3:32

people, you've got to go to every other website on

3:34

the Internet. I guess. So.

3:36

The Twitter files turned out to be a major letdown for conservatives,

3:39

right, there was no proof of a conspiracy

3:42

to help defeat Donald Trump. But you know who

3:44

doesn't care about any of that, Donald Trump.

3:46

Former President Donald Trump's false

3:48

claims about the election now

3:51

have him calling for the Constitution

3:54

to be terminated. With the revelation

3:56

of massive and widespread fraud and

3:58

deception in work and closely

4:00

with big tech companies, the d n C

4:02

and the Democratic Party, do you throw

4:04

the presidential election results of out

4:08

and declare the rightful winner, or

4:11

do you have a new election? A

4:13

massive fraud of this type and magnitude

4:15

allows for the termination of all

4:18

rules, regulations, and articles,

4:20

even those sound in

4:23

the Constitution. Yeah, that's

4:25

right. The Republican front running for presidents

4:27

of the United States wants to terminate

4:30

the Constitution because

4:32

Twitter wouldn't allow him to see Hunter Biden's dick.

4:35

Yeah, it's like, I want to see

4:37

the VP. I want to see it. I

4:40

want to see what I'm dealing with. Do

4:43

you want to see Hunter Biden's dick? Just get a bag of cocaine

4:45

like everyone else. Mr President? Also, why

4:48

is this still news? Can anyone tell me? Like?

4:50

Why is this leaving? A hit? Like? Donald Trump thinks there's

4:53

undermines the election. He thinks that about everything

4:55

everything. However, the math equation starts.

4:58

His answer is A is the same,

5:00

it doesn't matter where. It's like A wait, I could come up like,

5:03

I'm sorry, sir. The kitchen says, we've run out

5:05

of the Mickey Mouse pancakes. This is the last straw

5:08

we need to redo the election. We

5:11

do have the Donald Duck waffles. It's too late.

5:13

I'm storming the capital. I'll have

5:15

those to go please. And

5:18

look, I get that Trump doesn't like to lose. By my

5:21

man is over. You've

5:23

got to move on, you know. Trump is

5:25

like one of those guys who never stops trying

5:27

to get back with his ex, Like

5:30

he's texting her years and they're like, hey,

5:32

you up and she's like, yeah, I'm up with

5:34

my kids from my marriage. I'm

5:37

like, oh, still playing hard to get her. I

5:39

like that death. But

5:43

honestly, though, what what a start to the

5:45

Trump campaign. First

5:47

he had dinner with Nazi lovers. Now

5:50

he's calling to scrap the constitution.

5:52

What's next? What's he gonna give the Lincoln

5:54

Memorial enormous boobs? And still the

5:57

GPS gonna come out like, well, our person

5:59

or what I've brought with a texta will recome. But I

6:01

think our President Trump's Harker's on the

6:03

right players. But

6:06

enough of Trump and He's craziness. Let's calm

6:08

things down with a news story out of Tampa,

6:10

Florida, when we finally found

6:12

the onsets of the quantum physics paradox.

6:14

What happens when a police

6:17

officer pulls over the

6:19

chief of police. Tampa's

6:21

top cop has been placed on administrative leave

6:23

after she flashed her badge, apparently using

6:25

her status as police chief to get

6:28

out of a traffic stop. After the deputy

6:30

proceeds to explain to them why they

6:32

were being pulled over, which, by the way, was

6:35

because they were driving a golf card on a public

6:37

road without the appropriate tags. This

6:39

happened. Is your camera on the

6:43

police chief in Tampa? Oh,

6:45

how are you doing? I'm doing good. Okay,

6:48

I'm hoping that you'll just let us go to them. Okay,

6:50

yeah, alright, folks, Well

6:53

have a good night. Oh all right, do you ever

6:55

need you then called? Okay? Serious,

6:58

all right, thank you

7:01

for your service. Oh you

7:06

know, I don't know what's funny in that video. First

7:08

of all, First of all, I think it's crazy that she asks

7:11

if the officer's buddy cam is on

7:13

before incriminating herself, right,

7:17

because what was she going to do if the buddy camera was off?

7:19

Oh it's not recording quick dog wapping all

7:21

over their head. Let's get out of here. Just hit

7:23

him. And secondly, I love how

7:26

she does that thing, like if you notice it, she does

7:28

that thing that white people do where they

7:30

act like it hurts them to pull

7:32

rank over you. He

7:35

said. I think she's like, she's like, do you know it

7:37

turns out I'm the I'm the

7:39

chief of police. Yeah,

7:43

that's I

7:47

didn't want to bring it up. But I am

7:51

white. People love doing that ship. Yeah,

7:53

don't be at a hotel like can I get a late check

7:55

out from my room? Be like I'm sorry, so we can't accommodate

7:58

you all. But I do own the hotel.

8:00

Oh yeah, I'm

8:02

Brad Radisson. Yeah.

8:05

That's what I love about black people. It's not pretending

8:09

Black people pretending that it pains them to wield

8:11

their power for you. Doesn't tell you like,

8:13

sorry, sorry, we can't do a late checkout for

8:15

you, Like late check out for me, bitch, I own this hotel.

8:19

Should I check out what I want? You're

8:22

gonna tell the Kwan Radisson quin he can check

8:24

out of his own hotel. I tell

8:26

you you can check out now.

8:29

After this video came out, the mayor of Tampa

8:31

suspended this police chief and because of the

8:33

pressure, she was forced to resign,

8:35

which can I just say, is the biggest waste of

8:37

a scandal of all time. This

8:39

is what you used your part. You realize there are police chiefs

8:41

who have stolen millions of dollars

8:44

in drug money. Meanwhile, she's

8:46

out here like, yeah, I pulled some strings

8:48

and drove super slow on the highway,

8:54

But Enough about that, let's move on to a story

8:57

that had the incidet buzzing all weekend, and it's about

8:59

artificial intelligence, which, by the way, is not

9:01

when you regurgitate in the Atlantic article and act like you've

9:03

thought of it for yourself, No, for yours.

9:05

People have been wondering when we would

9:08

see the next step in natural language

9:10

processing from the world of AI,

9:12

and it looks like the future is already

9:15

here. A new artificial intelligence

9:17

is astounding the Internet with its ease of

9:20

use and humanlike writing ability. Chat

9:23

GPT was open to the public last

9:25

weekend and many have already posted

9:27

their interactions with the bot. So

9:29

far, it's written television scripts, fixed

9:32

coding errors, and even explained

9:34

scientific concepts in the voice

9:36

of a pirate. Yeah

9:39

that's right. For years, people

9:41

have been saying robots might be able to pack

9:43

boxes, but they will never be able to write

9:46

a poem like human beings. Well,

9:48

it turns out your shitty poetry has some competition

9:50

because I don't know if you've used this chat box, but

9:53

it is insane. Not

9:55

only can it understand a question you're asking

9:58

and then teach you about the most complicated

10:00

topics, it can design a lesson plan. It

10:02

can give you the information and it's not regurgitating

10:04

it, it's explaining it to you. It can

10:06

also write out the answers, as

10:09

if a pirate was teaching you.

10:12

Understand how amazing that is, like

10:15

quantum physicist, but a pirate on

10:18

top of that, Like I wish I had this technology as a

10:20

kid. The only reason I failed

10:22

any subject is because the teacher was boring. But

10:25

if Blackbeard was teaching me about physics,

10:28

I would have remembered everything. Yeah, light operates

10:31

as both a wave and a particle, the

10:33

same way you can operate. That's about I. Here man

10:36

and fresh food walked up, plank

10:37

man. Ah,

10:41

don't forget today our hard work. Obviously

10:46

not obviously Obviously this technology has a lot of people

10:49

asking is this going to replace

10:51

my job as a teacher or

10:53

as a receptionist, journalist, or even

10:55

an author, And the truth is, we don't really know. But

11:00

it is interesting to see how our fears

11:02

about a I have shifted radically over the years.

11:05

All Right, in the eighties and the nineties,

11:08

we thought that in the future people would be like these

11:10

damn machines are wiping out the

11:12

human race, And now

11:14

our fear is that in the future we're gonna be like these damn

11:16

machines keep writing love letters to my

11:18

wife, she's gonna leave

11:21

me. And

11:25

you gotta admit, you gotta admit it's weird

11:27

that we're this obsessed with robots talking

11:30

like humans, but we all

11:32

hate talking to actual humans, right,

11:35

Like everyone's using this like wow, it's like

11:37

I'm talking to my mom. It's like, hey, your

11:39

mom is actually calling you right now. Let it go to voicemail.

11:41

Let it go to voicemail asking if

11:43

it's proud of me. All right, that's

11:45

it for the headlines. But before we go to break, it's not to checking

11:47

on all the latest social media transplot. Very on Ronnie

11:50

chating everybody,

11:55

dank n graverirl, thank

11:59

you, thank you? All right?

12:01

Something online? Well, I've

12:03

been pouring through tweets, Instagram's

12:06

only fans, TikTok, snap chats,

12:08

only fans, four chans, master

12:11

Don's only fans again, and

12:13

now I'm mentally ill. Here's

12:16

what's trending the World Cup, where

12:18

for ninety minutes, two countries can put

12:20

politics aside and hate each other based

12:22

on pure ethnicity. Today

12:25

Croatia, be Japan and Brazil knock

12:27

South Korea out. And the thing about the World

12:29

Cup is that when you come from a country like me

12:31

Malaysia that's never in the World Cup,

12:34

all you can do is cheerful people who look

12:36

a little bit like you, Japan

12:39

Korea, and then when they got

12:42

eliminated, you just cheerful whoever is

12:44

not white So France.

12:50

But the big

12:52

story of the day, as you said, was the

12:54

Ai chat bart, the fing Charles

12:56

Dickens robot trying to make Siri

12:59

look a literate personally,

13:01

I don't like this bottle, okay, because every time you

13:03

ask you a question, it cranks out a word

13:06

think piece. Relax, We've

13:08

got enough humans with opinions. I don't need

13:10

my room about to develop a hot take on anti semitism.

13:14

And by the way, did I miss an update or

13:16

something? Because we got robots writing

13:18

sonnets here. But every time I call

13:20

Verizon, that robot Caven recognized me saying

13:22

yes, let's

13:26

just bring back the

13:28

picture. AI, bring

13:30

back that one. That one was cool. They were putting

13:32

break in the matrix. Now,

13:34

that was useful, all right. And

13:37

if you don't recognize this, that means that you're not on

13:39

black Twitter enough, because that ship was popping,

13:41

all right, follow me at stuff

13:43

fry hotep and

13:46

by the way, Joe for

13:48

the black people. And by the way,

13:51

I know you're saying this AI is gonna

13:53

take over a lot of jobs, Okay, and

13:55

maybe it will, but I'm not worried about

13:57

it taking over comedy jobs

13:59

because AI can do what we do,

14:02

all right. AI doesn't have the emotion, the

14:04

artistry, or the fundamental ability

14:07

to get hit in the balls. And

14:10

as we know, nothing is as funny

14:12

as getting hit in the balls. I mean, the

14:14

magic of what we do is

14:17

not a mathematical equation that can stay

14:21

off. You see that,

14:27

to see how funny that was? And

14:31

then I bought can never do that? See

14:34

can kiss my ass too, dear too.

14:39

Everyone's so excited about this thing, but I mean,

14:41

look look at what people are tweeting about it. I

14:43

mean, just look at look at this guy. Look

14:46

at the idiot. What AI

14:49

is the future? Oh wow?

14:52

What a genius did this guy go to? M

14:54

I T I mean, what's what's he gonna

14:56

predict next? That Apple will come up with a new

14:58

iPhone next year? I mean, I

15:00

hope this guy's a bard, because no humor

15:02

write anything that's stupid. Anyways,

15:07

travel I I gotta

15:09

go me this really hot

15:11

woman online. She really likes

15:13

me, and she smiled as hell and she talks like a

15:15

pirates. I'll see you later, loser. Well,

15:18

good luck with that, Ronnie. She

15:20

sounds like a real file. All right. When we come

15:22

back, don't say Sloan is gonna school

15:24

all of us on drags. So don't go away.

15:43

Welcome back to the Daily Show. Drag

15:46

shows are going through a tumultuous

15:49

time in America. On the one hand, it's

15:51

never been more popular, but on the other

15:53

hand, it's become the targets of huge

15:55

right wing backlash, as we saw just

15:57

this weekend in Ohio. Demon

16:00

traders protested a drag storytelling

16:02

event in Ohio over the weekend. It

16:04

was supposed to take place at a church, but was

16:06

canceled because of safety concerns. Well

16:08

several dozen members of the far right Proud

16:11

Boys and Patriot Front stood along

16:13

the roads, touting guns and face

16:15

masks. Some chanted Reclaim America,

16:17

others give a Nazi salute. You

16:20

know, I don't know if

16:22

it's a chemical reaction or a genetic

16:24

predisposition, but any time a white man

16:26

covers the facing white fabric. Ain't

16:29

no good coming after that, Because

16:32

all over America, Moe and more stories like this is popping up

16:34

right with grown men are showing up to drag

16:37

shows to fight the tyranny

16:39

of people wearing dresses and having fun, which

16:42

you've gotta admit is little ironic, isn't it. It's

16:44

just these guys running around angry like these grown men

16:46

dressing up in these ridiculous costumes.

16:49

It's not right. Are

16:51

you in the military, sir, I know about the

16:53

character I role play as as a Navy seal. Yeah,

16:55

do you like it? Do you like it? And

17:02

conservatives? Conservatives will

17:04

give different reasons for why drag must be

17:06

stopped, you know. Some say it's immoral,

17:08

Some say that it sexualizes kids.

17:10

Some say that Money Exchange

17:12

should have won Season seven of All Stars,

17:14

and they will never forget that if

17:20

you ask us. This just shows how

17:22

little conservatives know about drag. So

17:24

here to educate all of us is our very

17:26

own don't say slow. Drag

17:35

dates all the way back to the world's most ancient

17:37

civilizations. I'm talking the Incas,

17:40

the Aztecs, the Egyptians,

17:42

basically anyone that could build a pyramid, also

17:44

had a faious walk. I mean, why do you

17:46

think every man woman an

17:49

eagle? And ancient Egyptian art had a smoky

17:51

eye. Now, drag was originally

17:53

done in these ancient civilizations for tribal

17:55

and religious ceremonies. It's pretty

17:57

much how priest got started wearing moon moves. It

18:00

wasn't until modern times the drag played a role

18:02

in entertainment, and not just any entertainment.

18:05

I'm talking about the bad bitch Bard

18:07

himself, Shakespeare. Back

18:09

in this time, men dressed and dragged to play women's

18:11

roles, although that was really less about dragon

18:14

more about keeping women out of active me

18:16

sinks that doc be some bullshit at Horatio.

18:20

So for a long time, the stage was pretty

18:22

much the only place drag was acceptable.

18:24

It wasn't until the eighteenth century in England

18:26

that dragged performers started to express themselves

18:29

outside the theater. They met at private

18:31

residences where they could safely dress as their female

18:33

alter egos, and those places became

18:35

known as molly houses. And it was at these

18:37

molly houses where the first prominent drag queen

18:40

was born, Princess Sara Fina.

18:42

She was the first drag queen to take her drag out

18:44

of the privacy of the Molly houses and into public

18:47

events like masquerade balls. And it

18:49

was a big deal and incredibly brave because

18:51

it meant volunteering to deal with cat calling.

18:53

Now, while eighteenth century England gave

18:55

us drag queens, nineteenth century

18:58

America gave us drag balls. It's

19:00

the only time queens colonized the country

19:02

and made it better. One of the most famous drag

19:04

performers at that time was a former enslaved

19:07

African named William Dorsey, the

19:09

Queen Swan. Dorsey slaved

19:11

so hard he went on to become a pioneer of

19:13

modern ballroom culture. Now, there

19:15

are no existing photos of the Queen herself,

19:18

because how dare you she

19:20

was too glamorous to have her image captured by

19:22

you peasants now, But for reference,

19:24

historians believe her look was probably something

19:27

like this. Now, that is

19:29

fashion come through Brigard Tent.

19:32

America's drag balls brought the culture

19:34

to the next level and Harlem. They became

19:37

so popular that men and women would

19:39

come from all over to present their looks to a panel

19:41

of judges pageant style. And

19:43

you know, there's something comforting and knowing that even

19:46

hundreds of years ago, people were

19:48

telling someone to their face that they were a messy

19:50

bitch whose outfit is trashed the

19:53

circle of life. In the early nineteen

19:55

hundreds, one of the top drag performers was William

19:57

Dalton or better known by his drag name

20:00

Julian Eltage. Damn, look at those

20:02

outfits. They can play both leads and coins of Lanka.

20:04

Just look how good her makeup is. And

20:06

that was before went and wild. She pulled that

20:08

off with house paint and beat juice. Julian

20:11

was able to take her drag mainstream

20:13

by performing on Broadway and even

20:15

in front of King Edward the Seventh.

20:18

I mean, of course he liked it, that Duke

20:20

of rocker Cat. In fact, the King was

20:22

so impressed he gives to Julian with a

20:24

bulldog, which personally, I don't

20:26

think of a great prize. I prefer trophies

20:28

that don't need to ship three times a day. Drag

20:31

balls then exploded throughout the nineteen

20:33

twenties and thirties, but like with most things,

20:35

popularity brings out the haters. Mainstream

20:38

actors started linking them to homosexuality,

20:41

and soon masquerade laws

20:43

were passed prohibiting cross jessing

20:45

in public, and you know what that meant. That's

20:47

right, Harry Styles World Door

20:49

was canceled. Due

20:52

to these laws, Drag went underground again

20:54

and it wasn't until the late eighties that it returned

20:57

to the mainstream. But when it came back,

20:59

oh, it came back in a big way.

21:01

Drag performers were featured in major motion

21:04

pictures, including one of the best known sisters

21:06

of the silver screen, Divine, who

21:08

starred in the movie Hairspray and

21:11

was the inspiration for the Disney character Ursula

21:14

Damn Kirby. Incredible

21:16

singing boys and impeccable taste.

21:19

Are you sure we're not talking about me? Thanks

21:23

to all these brave drag performers, today we

21:25

have hit shows featuring drag queens and

21:27

we have a good reason to eat a meal as beautiful

21:29

as brunch. So to all the outrage conservatives

21:32

trying to drag drag through the mud, open

21:34

a history book. Now. I know you hate

21:36

those, but now they have pictures. Thank

21:42

you so much. Stay tuned because when we come

21:45

back, you know kind of best selling Walter Church

21:47

and McMillen Salon was drawing right on the show.

21:49

You don't want to listen to m

22:07

Welcome back today's show. My guests tonight

22:10

is a professor at u n C Chapel

22:12

Hills and a New York Times columnist.

22:14

She's one of my favorite guests, so I'm delighted to have her

22:17

back on the show. Please welcome Trascy McMillan,

22:19

Coottum Tressy

22:39

McMillan, Cotton, Welcome back to the Daily Show.

22:41

Welcome back to me. Indeed, it's a pleasure

22:43

to be back, right, or do I say professor? I'd

22:46

love to know what you prefer, because you you have

22:48

so many prestigious titles. You know it's

22:50

with New York Times best selling author, you

22:52

know, it could be professor, it could be mccarthur.

22:55

Is it a genius ground that they give you. You

22:58

can say that. I think I'm

23:00

not supposed to say that. The Foundation

23:03

would prefer not. But that's interesting.

23:05

So they say you're a genius, but they're not. They're like, you're not

23:07

allowed to say it of yourself exactly. Kind

23:09

of like your mother tells you, some things

23:11

are best said about you by others. I

23:13

see, Oh, you're amazing, but don't ever think

23:16

that about yourself. Yeah, that's

23:18

well. Well then I will say to the genius

23:20

professor that is Trissy, welcome to the show. Thank

23:22

you very much, What

23:26

a time to have you on, because you

23:28

know, there are a few people who I've enjoyed

23:31

learning from engaging with um

23:34

studying because you're not just a professor.

23:36

You're a sociologist. You're somebody who looks at the world.

23:38

You study what has happened, what is

23:40

happening, and how you think it will happen going

23:42

forward, and right now feels

23:44

like an interesting time of everything this

23:47

going on. Let let's start with you know, one

23:49

of our favorite platforms that we chad on all the time.

23:52

Twitter. It's been a really

23:54

interesting time on Twitter right now. Yes,

23:56

that's an understatement. I try. I

23:59

try specialize of those. UM. I

24:02

would love to know your opinion on Twitter

24:05

itself and how we see its role in our

24:07

society. There are some who say, because it

24:09

is a business, Elon can do whatever he wants. He

24:12

paid it, he paid for it, he can take it, he can he

24:14

can do as he pleases. On the other hand, there are people

24:16

whore saying Elon taking over Twitter, which

24:18

has become this public square, only

24:20

goes to show how you know, dangerous

24:23

can be to have billionaires defining what

24:26

everybody else can speak, or what what what this

24:28

speech might or may not be. And all

24:30

of those things are true, they are not

24:32

true to my mind, in equal parts. So I think

24:35

the bigger story here, uh,

24:37

is that we outsourced the public

24:39

square to the private sector. Right.

24:42

Twitter becomes or it feels

24:44

like, the public square, but it has never

24:46

operated in practice as a public square.

24:48

It cannot. It is not owned

24:51

by the state or by the people. And in fact,

24:53

one of the things that minority

24:55

people, queer people have

24:58

said for years about Twitter is that

25:00

they could not participate the same way

25:02

that really powerful brands could participate, or

25:05

politicians or particular specially

25:07

trolls. Uh. And so in a true public

25:10

square, there would be some way for people to talk

25:12

back right to the powers that be. That's

25:14

never been Twitter, That's never been any social media

25:16

platform. That is the difference between

25:18

a business and something that is truly public.

25:21

So it is a business. Elon

25:23

Musk can buy it, as he was eventually

25:26

you know, forced to do um uh.

25:30

You know, he wrote a check and then his behind

25:32

had to cash it. And that's how

25:34

we find ourselves here, uh. That

25:37

we have used it to try

25:39

to express sort of you know, people

25:41

power does not mean that

25:43

the people own it or have any authority

25:46

over it. What that says to me, and what I

25:48

think it says to many other people, is that there

25:50

should be a public space. We

25:53

are in an information society. Information

25:55

is power and it is money. Why

25:57

don't we have a civic blick

26:00

square that exists on the internet?

26:03

Elon must buy and Twitter would not have

26:05

mattered if the state was competing

26:07

with Twitter. That's interesting,

26:10

Yeah, but do you think but do you

26:12

think, you know, many of these ideas are

26:14

sound except when you add in that the

26:17

states in question would be America.

26:19

Yes, no, And I

26:22

mean that's not because of America's in

26:24

netnos or anything, but rather because America sees everything

26:26

through the lens of you know, left or

26:28

rights, Democrat, Republican always it doesn't

26:30

matter what the issue is. And it feels like America

26:33

itself would never be able to create something like

26:35

this because both sides wouldn't agree on what the thing

26:37

should or shouldn't be. Oh no, absolutely,

26:39

I mean we see this debate about everything that is

26:42

publicly governed, particularly our schools,

26:44

right where we cannot agree

26:46

on whether or not our schools are indoctrinating our

26:49

children or should be preparing them for the economy

26:51

of the future. Somehow Americans wanted

26:53

to do both. Right, don't teach my children

26:55

anything but make sure that they

26:57

can be competitive in the economy of

26:59

the future. But you know what that is

27:02

the mess of democratic participation.

27:04

It does not mean that we get it right. It

27:07

means that there is a way to get it right sometimes,

27:11

so we don't have to have the whole thing

27:13

figured out for us to invest in publicness.

27:16

So one of you know, I teach at a public

27:18

university in North Carolina, and

27:21

I teach a lot of students who will go on to work

27:23

in libraries and in the information sector.

27:25

You know, libraries are to me the

27:28

shining example on the hill of

27:30

what a public space can be. Are they perfect?

27:33

Absolutely not? But

27:35

do they welcome people into them and meet

27:37

people where they are? Absolutely?

27:40

Can America do that? Yes? Now, do

27:42

we have to fight to do it every step of the way,

27:45

Absolutely, But we

27:47

can have that fight. You can't have that

27:49

fight when an entity

27:52

is owned by a single meglomaniac.

27:58

You know, Well,

28:00

when we when we talk about these spaces and

28:02

we talk about these ideas, and we talk about these conversations.

28:05

There's no denying that Twitter and

28:07

many places like it have benefited from

28:10

the diverse array of voices that have now been

28:12

part of the platform. You know, you wouldn't

28:14

know what was happening on the ground in

28:17

the same way in Iran were it not for Twitter.

28:19

You know, you wouldn't know what was happening on the ground

28:21

in the same way in Charlottesville were it not for Twitter.

28:24

It has become, as you said, it has the illusion

28:26

at times of a public square. But many people

28:28

have used it to that effect. I would love to know,

28:31

you know, from your perspective, if somebody who has

28:33

seen your own journey, you know, from general

28:36

obscurity to now becoming somebody whose

28:38

voice is so respected and recognized.

28:40

You know, you right for the New York Times as part

28:42

of the ed you you you're shaping people's

28:45

opinions. How do you find

28:47

the balance well or how do you inspire people? You teach

28:50

to think critically about

28:52

the world that they're living in, because half of the things

28:54

we know are taught to us, and then

28:56

at some point we have to decipher between what we've

28:58

been taught is the truth, and then what is the truth

29:01

or with a grave even exists? How how do you even

29:03

begin that journey as a teacher and as a learner who's

29:05

constant because you're constantly learning. Well,

29:07

I think that is part of it. I try to always be

29:09

a learner. It's really easy, I

29:12

think, to develop

29:14

and grow in your career and forget how

29:16

overwhelming it is to learn something new for

29:18

the first time. So I try to be an idiot

29:21

as much as humanly possible, you

29:26

know. I enroll in something, I take up something

29:28

that I'm just absolutely horrible at doing

29:31

because I want to feel how vulnerable

29:33

it feels to learn it. It is a very vulnerable

29:35

space. So when I am feeling generous,

29:38

I think that there is a not

29:40

insignificant part of the American public

29:43

that isn't so much afraid of the other as

29:46

they are of being ignorant. And

29:50

some people would rather be angry than

29:52

stupid, and

29:54

so figuring it out is actually

29:57

really hard. This is something I've learned as

29:59

I've taught people, uh, And so there's a certain

30:01

amount of vulnerability. I

30:03

think we have to share with each

30:05

other to say that just because I have achieved

30:08

something in one part of the world or

30:10

in one profession doesn't mean I know everything.

30:13

Now. The challenge for us is

30:15

that we have a culture that absolutely likes

30:17

to turn every success

30:19

story into a universal story

30:22

of genius. Right, so you found

30:25

it Facebook, and now you can solve world

30:27

hunger, as if those have anything

30:29

to do with each other. Uh, you

30:31

know, So that is a problem of the culture. But I don't

30:33

think it has to be that way, And

30:36

I actually think one of the good things about

30:38

Twitter has been how

30:40

many people have been willing to model

30:43

learning and public so that other

30:45

people could see that it doesn't have to strip

30:47

you of your status or

30:50

your position, that learning can happen

30:52

without you, you know, flailing about I

30:55

think I'll miss that about Twitter.

30:59

You know, it ends eventually. Listen

31:01

all social media apps and uh

31:04

there'll be something new, obviously, but I don't

31:06

know that anything else would be able to capture.

31:09

That was one of the best things about

31:11

Twitter. Um It was

31:13

a space for people to see different

31:16

kinds of genius, that

31:18

you could be a good in one domain still learning

31:20

in another domain, that you could risk it. It

31:23

is something that I enjoyed

31:25

doing personally, and I think that

31:27

it was never the the apps in tension. Listen,

31:30

people turned it into that. That is not what it

31:32

was designed to do. You think that's because we

31:34

innately want to do that as human beings. I

31:36

do. I have to believe that

31:38

human beings are fundamentally curious. And

31:41

social media is only popular because

31:44

we're curious. We go there

31:46

because we want to see. We're nosy, we

31:49

you know, we we want to rub renect

31:51

the world, you know. Uh. And

31:54

so what it is done, it is it's made

31:56

it profitable, made our curiosity profitable.

31:59

Uh. And it has made our curiosity politically

32:02

polarized. But that doesn't

32:04

mean the curiosity is bad. I

32:06

actually think it is a thing that separates

32:08

us, you know, from the rest of uh

32:11

one of the animal keenom. I don't want to. I don't wanna throw

32:14

shade on animals. Animals are good, They're

32:16

are pretty curious. Yeah, actually are pretty curious.

32:18

Yeah. I think we're eight if

32:21

we're lucky, right, you know. But

32:23

it does separate us, I think, from like a brick

32:25

wall. It does. Indeed, it doesn't need shade

32:28

to all the bricks has been thrown. Animals

32:30

haven't spent. I could talk to you, I could talk to you for hours.

32:32

But that's why we have your books, That's why we have some of your tweets.

32:35

Thank you again for joining me on the show. Thank you for everything appreciated.

32:39

Thank you so much. One more time, tutm

32:42

that want to talk from everybody, I'm gonna thank you quick break

32:44

all the right back after this. Thank

32:47

you, Agamimal. We'll

33:01

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