0:00

I couldn't believe it. You know, I've

0:02

seen it happening in other sports, and

0:04

in my mind, I thought, they will

0:06

never do that in boxing because we

0:08

hit each other in the face, in

0:11

the head, in the body, and it

0:13

never even crossed my mind that that

0:15

would happen. This is

0:17

the Daily Signal podcast for

0:23

Wednesday, January 17th. I'm

0:26

Virginia Allen, and that was USA

0:28

Olympic Level 4 female

0:30

boxing coach, Carrie Williams, discussing

0:32

a recent rule change that

0:34

allows men to compete

0:37

against women in boxing matches. That's

0:39

right, on January 1st, USA

0:42

boxing officially changed its policy

0:44

so that now men who identify as

0:47

women can get in the ring and

0:49

box with females. Carrie has

0:51

been boxing herself and coaching for years

0:55

and says her concern is that women are

0:57

going to get hurt and could even be

0:59

killed if a man is allowed to box

1:01

with them. She joins me

1:03

on the show today to explain what

1:06

ringside physicians are saying about the rule

1:08

change and what other female

1:10

boxers think of the new policy. Stay

1:13

tuned for our conversation, but first,

1:15

if you or someone you know

1:17

works in higher education, listen up.

1:19

We all know that the academic

1:22

environment is particularly challenging right

1:24

now, especially for faculty who

1:26

research, publish, teach, or

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develop programs in areas that

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explore economic freedom, the

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dignity of the person, human flourishing,

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constitutional governments, national security, and

1:38

other issues that are related

1:41

to freedom, opportunity, and traditional

1:43

American values. And

1:45

funding opportunities for such

1:47

projects is incredibly scarce.

1:50

That's why the Heritage Foundation

1:52

established the Freedom and Opportunity

1:54

Academic Prizes to

1:56

recognize and provide financial

1:59

awards. to faculty at

2:01

higher education institutions. The

2:03

deadline for the application is February 1st.

2:07

Winners will receive a financial

2:09

award of $15,000 in recognition

2:11

of their past accomplishments, the

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importance of their current work,

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and their future promise in

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the Academy, especially in

2:19

relation to public policy. Again,

2:21

the deadline to apply is

2:23

February 1st. You can find

2:25

more information and

2:28

the application by visiting

2:30

heritage.org slash innovation

2:32

prize. Again, that

2:35

website is heritage.org

2:37

slash innovation prize.

2:46

It is my pleasure and joy

2:48

today to be joined by USA

2:50

Olympic level four female boxing coach

2:53

Carrie Williams. Carrie has a successful

2:55

run in boxing herself before becoming

2:57

a coach. She is

3:00

also the founder of the women's

3:02

fight gear brand Tuffle and CEO

3:04

of B and D method, which

3:07

is a certification company that certifies

3:09

trainers around the globe in

3:12

Carrie's Pacific Gin method. Carrie, thank you

3:14

so much for being with us today.

3:16

Thank you for having me. I'm super excited.

3:19

Let's go ahead and dive in and hear

3:21

some of your story. How did you first

3:24

get into boxing? Yeah, I know it's a

3:26

funny way how we get into what we're

3:28

doing now, right? Actually,

3:31

I graduated with an environmental science

3:33

degree from college, so of course

3:35

I'm using that. I've

3:40

always had an entrepreneurial spirit and I

3:43

wanted to do something that hadn't been

3:45

done before. I had a friend at the

3:47

time that was a boxer and I

3:49

just remember them saying, you know, oh, well I

3:52

go to the gym. A lot

3:54

of people want to learn how to box, but no

3:56

trainers will train them unless they want to

3:59

be fighters. Hmm. So I thought, well,

4:01

why not open a gym where anybody

4:03

and everybody can come in, they can

4:05

learn boxing, maybe not get hit, but

4:07

learn the actual sport. And

4:09

that was back in 1998. So, uh,

4:13

in actuality, I was, I

4:15

was a gym owner before

4:17

I was a coach and

4:19

I was a coach before I was

4:21

a boxer. Okay. So

4:24

you did it backwards. Oh yeah.

4:26

Oh, wait. What

4:28

do you prefer coaching or boxing

4:30

yourself? Uh, you

4:32

know what? I love coaching. Um, it's,

4:35

you know, boxing is great because it's, it's

4:37

one of those things where you're strategic, you

4:39

know, a lot of people think it's just

4:41

us out there hitting each other, but there's

4:43

a lot of strategy involved. And, um, I

4:46

do miss that about participating in the sport,

4:48

but the opportunity

4:50

to make changes in people, you

4:52

know, whether they're athletes or not

4:55

athletes, uh, pretty amazing, especially for

4:57

youngsters. So I've been able to

4:59

touch a lot of people over the, you

5:01

know, 25 years of being in

5:03

boxing. So I would say for me, coaching

5:05

is, uh, more rewarding. So

5:08

cool. What are some of the, or who are some

5:10

of the athletes that you've coached? Um,

5:13

you know, I wouldn't say any big names per se.

5:15

Um, I did take a

5:18

young lady, Marina Ramirez to

5:20

the Olympic trials, which was

5:22

the very first Olympic

5:24

games that women were allowed to back

5:26

sin. Well, that wasn't too long ago.

5:28

It was 2012. Um,

5:31

so we've been, you know, fighting for

5:34

our seat at the table for a

5:36

long time, uh, as women in the

5:38

sport. Um, so yeah, we, we had

5:40

a great, um, little kind of Olympic

5:43

trial tour, just her and I, and

5:45

I'll never forget it. It was pretty

5:47

amazing. That is really special.

5:50

Are the rules different in,

5:52

uh, female boxing versus male

5:54

boxing? Yeah, they are.

5:56

And, you know, And it also depends on

5:58

if you're fighting professionally. You know if

6:01

you're fighting amateur you're looking at you

6:03

know to minute rounds. Versus three minute

6:05

rounds and the pros you're looking

6:07

at. Ah for championship fight.

6:09

ten rounds of said a twelve

6:11

rounds. So there are differences and

6:13

in the competition and it's they've.

6:15

always been there for the safety

6:18

of women. Sure, sure.

6:20

Well let's talk about that. The

6:22

safety of women within boxing. So

6:24

similar. Lutherans have probably heard the

6:27

news that on January first Usa

6:29

Boxing became the latest sport in

6:31

America to implement the new rules

6:33

to allow men who identify as

6:36

women to compete against women Carry

6:38

when you are heard this news

6:40

and you heard that Usa Boxing

6:43

was changing the rules, what were

6:45

some of the first. Thought they were

6:47

into your head. I couldn't believe

6:49

it. You know I've seen it happening

6:52

and other sports and in my mind

6:54

I thought they will never do that

6:56

embark. Sense because it was at each other

6:58

in the says. In the head and the

7:00

body And it never even crossed my mind

7:03

that that would happen. It's

7:05

I was really shocked and then I

7:07

was really upset. Ah you know, like

7:09

I said we've been fighting for a

7:11

long time to get our seat at

7:13

at the table in the Olympics and

7:15

you know this is in amateur boxing

7:17

So Usa. Boxing is the

7:19

the body that on.

7:22

That basically only amateurs go through

7:24

that organization to make it to

7:26

the Olympics. I'm. Sorry. I

7:28

was. I was very upset about it. An

7:31

iso what they had to speak out about

7:33

it, you know I I feel like

7:35

a lot of of folks are really nervous

7:37

to speak out and and whether that's enough.

7:40

Of that said, like their swords on

7:42

their social media, he don't even know

7:44

I. Believe that majority of women

7:46

feel the same way I feel.

7:48

I think lots of a guy.

7:51

So the same way. Ah and

7:53

Desist. Nobody's coming out to say

7:55

anything Ozzie Nobody. but there are

7:57

very few. Yeah. Why?

8:00

Really applaud you for your holiness to

8:03

speak out into the a voice on

8:05

this issue to be a voice for

8:07

other female boxers and. Explain

8:09

his he would just a little

8:11

bit of am of this rule

8:13

the context they are there specific

8:16

benchmark that these males have to

8:18

hit in order to compete. With.

8:20

Women correct before arm before they're

8:23

allowed to compete, right? I'm as

8:25

said, there are certain testosterone levels

8:27

they must meet. Which

8:30

is kind of crazy because we

8:32

have anti doping and so. He.

8:35

Know a hormone is a hormone

8:38

replacement and you know it is

8:40

what it is. Ah bless as

8:42

also they're eighteen and older and

8:44

but the thing as that, they.

8:47

Are. Not required to have gone

8:49

through their transition before puberty

8:51

and that is a big

8:54

problem. I mean already, you

8:56

know boys or girls are

8:58

different in a minute. Women

9:00

were born differently. You're talking

9:02

about larger hearts, larger lungs,

9:04

and and bone density strength.

9:06

You're talking about muscle fiber

9:08

differences. Those are all something

9:10

were born with. Like, genetically.

9:12

we're not. We're not just

9:14

talking about going through puberty

9:16

a once. You go through. Puberty.

9:19

And. Me that says it's a whole

9:21

nother ballgame as so it would. The

9:24

rule is that's not required, it's You

9:26

know, I identify as this. I'm at

9:28

a certain level of hormones and I

9:31

have to be you know, at that

9:33

level for so many years and maintain

9:35

that and get tested. That's pretty much

9:38

what. The rule is. Okay,

9:40

Have you ever personally boxed

9:43

against a man? I

9:45

have an experience and ah when

9:47

I was thirty and I was

9:49

competing I was sparring and we

9:51

had a lot of teenage boys

9:54

in our in our club and

9:56

I was born was one of

9:58

them may he was sick. Keen.

10:01

On any was going very light on me

10:03

which you know with oh it's always a

10:05

kind of that. We don't talk about it

10:07

but we all know if you're going against

10:09

a woman in the rings, you go lead

10:11

on them. As unspoken rule.

10:14

so he was going light on me

10:16

and he just threw in a body

10:18

shy and it just it just hit

10:20

me perfectly and he didn't mean to

10:22

hit me hard, flitted in there and

10:24

gave me a hairline fracture. My rib.

10:27

I'm thirty years old, he's

10:30

seventeen and any is gonna

10:32

crack in my ribs and

10:34

so yeah, I have had

10:36

that experience I have. You

10:38

know I understand firsthand. What?

10:41

The differences in that power. And

10:43

again, that was a teenager. Wow.

10:46

So when you're speaking out when

10:49

you're series of stories like that

10:51

and I I've had seen other

10:53

female boxers who were saying wait

10:55

a second or major safety concerns

10:57

here. When you.

11:00

All are are speaking out and reaching

11:02

out to Usa Boxing. How

11:04

are they saying that they're going to address or

11:07

are. They saying how

11:09

they're going to address these

11:11

concerns over safety with men

11:13

and women both competing together.

11:16

I'm. Not getting any responses

11:18

as so, I don't know.

11:20

but I did realize that

11:22

sit there there's an entity

11:24

that's between us. a boxing

11:27

and the i'll see which

11:29

is it in the Olympic

11:31

Committee rights. So between that

11:33

we had a bath. Every

11:36

depressing little bit different. but as

11:38

they done in trouble for something

11:40

and so the I see kick

11:42

them out and so we're We're

11:45

like whoa, we're not available. A

11:47

box. And. So this organization

11:49

that created and stepped and called. World

11:51

Boxing. And this just

11:54

happened. And Twenty Twenty three around

11:56

March? Yes. sir

11:59

now went through their website, I've

12:01

been trying to get ahold of somebody there. And it

12:03

pretty much states that

12:07

whatever gender you are, that's where you

12:09

compete at. That's what

12:11

their rule says. And they're

12:13

between USA boxing and the Olympic,

12:17

the IOC. So

12:19

I don't know where it's all

12:21

going to lie. It's kind

12:24

of really up in the air, you know,

12:26

this person saying this, this person saying this.

12:29

But I'm still waiting for answers. So I've been

12:32

reaching out to different people in those organizations. And

12:34

I haven't gotten any responses yet. And

12:38

when you're talking with the female boxers that

12:40

you work with, what are they saying? Oh,

12:43

gosh. It's, you know, and the

12:45

thing is, it's not just in boxing, it's

12:47

in wrestling and MMA,

12:50

you know, other combat sports, jiu-jitsu.

12:53

I'm getting stories told to me from

12:55

young girls that are talking about, you

12:57

know, they got their nose broke and

13:00

just in training with boys or men.

13:03

But yeah, the women in the boxing community, I

13:06

don't know one of them personally

13:08

that has said, yeah, this is a great

13:11

idea. They are

13:13

extremely upset about it. I

13:15

do understand that, you know, we're in an

13:17

Olympic Games in 2024. So a lot of

13:19

our women

13:21

have worked really hard for a lot

13:24

of years to get where they're at.

13:26

Now for them to step up

13:29

and speak out against USA boxing,

13:31

it puts their Olympic dreams in

13:33

jeopardy. So I

13:35

think a lot of them are very nervous

13:37

to really kind of step

13:40

up and speak out and

13:42

ruffle any feathers because of where

13:44

they're at. And the

13:46

thing is, in 2024, I don't believe there

13:50

will be any transgenders boxing

13:52

at the Olympics, at least in

13:55

the USA, because this rule is, you know,

13:57

kind of new. you

14:00

know, for the future, it's, you

14:02

know, and it can do it. Some people say,

14:04

oh, there's not that many trans, you know, what

14:06

are you worried about? There could

14:08

be one. That's what it takes to

14:10

do damage. That's all it takes to kill a woman.

14:13

And that's all it takes for it

14:16

to grow steadily. And then there

14:18

are more and there are more and there are more. So what

14:22

just because there's one, it's okay. I

14:24

don't understand that logic at all. And

14:27

so, yeah, I'm extremely scared for the

14:29

safety of our girls and our women in boxing. Well,

14:32

Carrie, I mean, there's obviously there's obviously a

14:34

physical side to it. That's very obvious concerns

14:37

over safety. But then I also think about

14:39

prepping to go into

14:41

a match as a woman, knowing

14:44

I am going to

14:46

be fighting against a male. And

14:49

just that psychological toll that that would

14:51

potentially take because right, I mean, as

14:53

athletes, you prepare just as much psychologically

14:56

as you do physically, right? So

14:59

true. I can tell

15:01

you, you can lose the fight before you

15:04

step into the ring. It

15:06

is so much more mental than

15:08

most people realize. And if you

15:11

know you're stepping in there with

15:13

a person who is a man, yeah, you're,

15:18

you're not going to have that much confidence. You

15:21

might even be a little bit more nervous. You might be

15:23

scared for your life. Yeah,

15:26

I can't imagine me personally

15:28

still boxing and having to deal with

15:30

that. I actually wouldn't quite

15:33

frankly, I would step away. I would,

15:36

I wouldn't really

15:38

care where I was at

15:40

in my boxing career. I would have

15:42

to take a stand and get

15:44

my girls together and my team together and

15:47

say, look, we've got to walk from this

15:49

because power is in numbers. And if

15:51

these women all step away from this,

15:54

then who's going to be competing at

15:56

the Olympics? Hmm. You know, wow.

15:58

So I mean, That's pretty bold. You

16:02

would tell Team USA Boxing,

16:04

hey, walk away if

16:06

you have a man coming in to compete against you

16:08

guys. Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Wow.

16:13

So what is your message? Want to

16:15

give you a platform just to speak

16:17

really clearly to USA Boxing? What

16:19

do you want to say to them? You

16:22

know what I want to say

16:24

to them? I

16:26

feel like they are doing women

16:29

a disservice and

16:31

they are jeopardizing their safety.

16:34

And speaking of safety, USA Boxing,

16:37

you were aware of a

16:40

paper written by the Association

16:42

of Ring-Side Physicians. They

16:45

made it very clear that

16:47

this is unsafe. Ring-side

16:49

physicians, they're the ones that

16:52

are there at ring-side to

16:54

make sure every fighter is safe. So

16:57

if you're not listening to a recommendation that they

16:59

have, what are you doing? Wow.

17:02

I mean, that's huge, Carrie, that

17:05

you have the physicians who are

17:07

on the sidelines who are raising

17:09

concerns over this. If

17:12

you would, talk us through that. What are

17:14

some of their key concerns related to safety

17:16

and what are some of the injuries that

17:18

they have voiced concern over seeing more

17:20

of if you have men and women

17:23

in rings together? They

17:25

are not being specific, but

17:27

they are definitely stating

17:29

that a man

17:32

who is competing in the

17:34

women's category is dangerous

17:36

because men and women are

17:39

built differently. Once they

17:41

go through puberty, it

17:43

is just such a stark

17:45

difference that it is completely

17:48

unsafe. And they recommend not

17:50

to allow transgender people to

17:52

compete in the women's category.

17:55

And they also, on the other side,

17:57

they also talk about transgender people. competing

18:00

in the men's. You know

18:02

it's a safety issue as well

18:05

on that end. But you're not

18:07

getting a lot a lot of

18:09

that. There is a

18:12

professional transgender person that

18:14

is competing as

18:16

a man and has

18:19

done has I think has three

18:21

wins. Now this

18:23

person was a five-time national

18:26

champion as a woman and

18:29

also competed at the Olympic trials.

18:31

I'm not sure if she made the team but

18:34

you could see she been boxing since

18:36

she was young and had a lot of

18:39

experience as a boxer. So the

18:41

thing with professional boxing anybody can

18:43

go and get their professional boxing

18:46

license. They do not need to be an

18:48

amateur boxer or have experience. They can go

18:50

down to the Commission at that state and

18:52

get a boxing license if all of their

18:54

their physicals are fine, neurologicals

18:56

are fine. So basically

18:59

the three guys that she has fought

19:01

their records are like 0 and 3 and

19:04

they have no boxing experience.

19:06

Well if she's allowed to

19:08

take testosterone which she is

19:11

because they're you know

19:13

she's becoming a man. So

19:17

you put all that together well sure she

19:19

could she could beat a few guys. I mean

19:22

come on it just doesn't make any sense

19:25

to me. Yeah. Carrie

19:27

are you concerned about getting canceled? You

19:30

as you mentioned there's there's some folks

19:32

who are speaking out but I think

19:34

many are frightened to do so and

19:37

understandably so from what we have seen

19:39

when people speak out on this issue

19:41

it often isn't pretty. Why are you

19:44

still choosing to speak out even given

19:46

the risks that you know you face?

19:48

You know I don't think about

19:50

it. That's the thing is you know I don't

19:53

I don't live my life on having

19:55

followers or getting likes or getting

19:58

views. I'm not concerned Learned

20:00

about that. I. And the

20:02

thing is that if if somebody. Has.

20:04

A different view than me. and they can't

20:07

just simply go. Okay, she thinks that way.

20:09

I think this way, let's move forward and

20:11

let's live our lives. Than. Is

20:14

that the person that I really want

20:16

to be associated with? on I don't

20:18

mind people having other views. But.

20:21

To cancel somebody because you

20:23

have. Another view ah

20:25

dashes is. Idiotic receipts

20:28

me. And so I

20:30

agree away. It's fine if if I

20:32

lose you know followers are or what

20:34

have you know. Ah ah ah Well

20:36

and Juri go and tell us how

20:39

can we keep up with your work.

20:41

If we want to follow what you're

20:43

doing, how do we follow you? And

20:45

I feel we're interested in Betty picking

20:47

up boxing, trying it out where the

20:49

start of a New Year twenty when

20:52

I for how can we learn about

20:54

what you're doing may be I get

20:56

involved with Tussle See or that's how

20:58

we. Can follow along for sure.

21:00

I have is a Tussle is

21:03

a it's an all female psyche

21:05

or companies because we are built

21:07

differently than men so this isn't

21:09

a shrink it Mp gets. Here

21:12

it is. Actually we have custom

21:14

molding for women's our hands whether

21:16

they're wearing gloves, other holding punch

21:19

meds and or to coach or

21:21

whatever. So ah so yes a

21:23

Tussle the air.com and and you

21:26

know we have also we do

21:28

and clinics. Are a brand partners.

21:30

They do clinics around the nation

21:32

and in a whatever their specialties

21:34

is, it could be digits, could

21:36

be boxing, it could be whatever.

21:38

And they're They're doing clinics in

21:40

their cities offered to girls and

21:43

women for free on you know,

21:45

just to spend an hour getting

21:47

his skillset or to be introduced

21:49

to something that will be doing

21:51

that. Am And Twenty Twenty Four.

21:53

So yeah, I mean that's that's

21:55

kind of what we're dealing with.

21:57

The tussle to cut. Tussle Brown right

21:59

now and I'm super excited about it! I

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