0:03

Welcome to the weekend edition

0:05

of The Daily Each weekday,

0:08

we bring you a meditation inspired

0:10

by the ancient stoics, something to

0:12

help you live up to those four stoic

0:14

virtues of courage, justice,

0:17

temperance and wisdom. And then

0:19

here on the weekend, we take a deeper

0:21

dive into those same topics. We

0:23

interview Stoic philosophers we

0:26

explore at length how

0:29

these stoic ideas can be applied

0:31

to our actual lives and the

0:33

challenging issues of our time. Here

0:36

on the weekend when you have a little bit

0:38

more space when things have slowed

0:40

down, be sure to take some

0:43

time to think, to go for a walk,

0:45

to sit with your journal, and importantly,

0:48

to prepare for what the week ahead

0:50

may bring

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1:50

Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another

1:52

weekend episode of The Daily Stroke. because

1:54

I was talking to a friend of mine who

1:56

happens to be in her nineties. She'll come up a

1:58

little bit in today's episode.

1:59

And we were talking about the

2:02

Holocaust Edith this terrible

2:04

rise of antisemitism, some of these

2:06

athletes and celebrities who have

2:09

used their not just not for

2:11

good, but to propagate

2:14

terrible, slanderous, hastest

2:16

things. And it was I was I was trying

2:19

what I was trying to ask and I ended up asking

2:21

my guest about this today as well.

2:23

I was asking about how for, like, the first

2:26

fifteen or so years of

2:28

this woman's life, almost

2:30

two decades, Since the

2:32

Holocaust hadn't happened, she

2:34

lived in a world where

2:37

people were not fully aware of

2:40

just how bad people could

2:42

be to each other. And I was just curious

2:44

about what that is like, and that's one of the reasons

2:46

I really, really like talking to people

2:49

who have been alive so much longer than I

2:51

have. I've talked about my my late

2:53

friend Richard Overton, talked

2:55

about George Dravelyn, There's

2:57

another person I met in New York many

2:59

years ago who I see whenever I can. His name is Frederick

3:01

Bloch. He's a federal court judge.

3:04

People who've been around for a long time have

3:06

just just by nature of walking around in the

3:08

planet, the four certain things, after certain

3:10

things, just have a sense of

3:12

the world. They have an inherent

3:14

wisdom that we cannot have,

3:16

but we can get from them.

3:19

And that's why I wanted to have today's

3:21

guest not just on the but back

3:23

on the podcast. My guest today is

3:26

doctor Edith Eger. Doctor

3:28

Eger grew up in Nazi occupied Europe

3:30

and She and her family

3:32

were sent to Auschwitz. She and her

3:34

sister survived. Her parents did

3:36

not. She was

3:38

scovered literally in a pile

3:40

of dead bodies. A soldier rescued

3:42

her after seeing her hand move. She

3:44

weighed less than seventy pounds. She had a

3:46

broken back typhoid fever, pneumonia,

3:49

and everything else you can imagine.

3:52

And after the war, she moved to the United

3:54

States, communism with her husband,

3:57

and then eventually got a degree in psychology.

3:59

She met Drs. Victor Frankel, who she

4:01

studied under, and she began treating

4:03

people with PTSD, which in fired her

4:05

to continue working on healing herself. Doctor

4:08

Eager's daughter, Marianne Engle, is a licensed

4:10

clinical psychologist and sports psychologist,

4:13

her husband is a Nobel Prize winner.

4:15

This is, you know, as close to the

4:17

American dream you can imagine.

4:20

I have raved about doctor

4:22

Eger's book, The Gift fourteen

4:24

lessons to save your life, and

4:26

the choice embrace the past agreeable,

4:29

both of which we sell at the painted Portugal.

4:31

I'll link to those. And then she has

4:33

a free online course called Forgiving,

4:35

the gift I give myself, which I will

4:37

link to, you can go to WWW

4:40

dot doctor edith eater dot

4:42

com to check that out. I'll

4:44

link all of it. But

4:46

I will say one quick note on this episode.

4:49

First off, it's a little difficult to have two

4:51

people on the show at the same time. it

4:53

is difficult to

4:56

do Internet conferencing period

4:59

because sometimes there's lags and glitches,

5:01

you know, if you ever kind of talk to someone in

5:03

Zoom and you're not sure if they can hear you, they're

5:05

not sure if you can hear them. So does that and

5:07

then, you know, one of these guesses in her

5:09

mid nineties and they're on opposite coast, not in the

5:11

same room together. I will

5:13

say just bear with me. It they're

5:16

part of this that might feel a little scattered

5:18

from place to place. and,

5:21

you know, not not your

5:23

typical daily stowed podcast,

5:26

but, like, right out of the gate, Dr.

5:28

Eger gave me something that I've been

5:30

thinking about ever since she is

5:32

a wonderful woman, a

5:34

true national treasure someone

5:36

we can learn so much from. I'm writing

5:38

about her in the justice book, and

5:41

I really appreciated the opportunity to

5:43

talk to her, not just once but a second

5:45

time, I will encourage

5:48

everyone to listen to the last episode

5:50

again as well. But here is

5:52

my conversation with Dr. Edith Eager

5:54

and her daughter, Dr. Marianne Engle,

5:57

about so many wonderful things

5:59

and so many terrible things at the same time,

6:01

but it was just a a conversation I

6:03

felt very honored to have and very

6:06

excited to bring to you.

6:13

you

6:13

guys ever think you would work together? That

6:16

that's so beautiful. Well,

6:18

you know, I was a psychologist long before she

6:20

was. She she was going

6:22

to college when I was finishing

6:25

graduate school. And

6:26

then she became a teacher. Wow.

6:28

And then she decided then she

6:31

decided that actually teaching

6:33

high school kids was not her destiny.

6:35

And so a professor

6:38

told her to get a PhD. And

6:40

she said, if I do that, I'll be in my fifties. And

6:42

he said, you'll be in your fifties anyway.

6:45

And so

6:47

then she became a psychologist and

6:49

and kept specializing in one thing in

6:51

another, and So we do

6:53

share patience sometimes and stuff and it's fun.

6:55

That's

6:55

beautiful. you look great. Perfect.

6:58

Yes. You do look amazing. doctor

7:00

Eager, I I had a a strangely personal

7:03

question on on my end that that I thought you

7:05

might be able to help me with. So

7:08

I recently got reconnected with

7:10

someone who had been sort of a motherly,

7:12

grandmotherly figure in my life when I

7:14

was much younger. And I don't know

7:16

why we fell out of touch,

7:18

but we hadn't talked for fifteen

7:21

or almost twenty years, I guess.

7:24

And she's she's she's

7:26

ninety three, and we got reconnected

7:28

recently. And I have

7:30

these two kind of

7:32

overwhelming emotions. One, I feel a lot

7:34

of guilt that

7:36

we fell out of touch and

7:39

and then I feel this sort of overwhelming

7:41

feeling of urgency and

7:44

happiness having been reconnected, but

7:47

then I can't shake the guilt that

7:49

I feel

7:50

that

7:51

that that I fell out of touch with this

7:54

person when time is so

7:56

limited, especially with

7:59

someone who who is

7:59

in their nineties.

8:01

I give you a sentence. One

8:04

sentence.

8:06

If I knew then, what

8:08

I know now, I would

8:10

have done things differently, and

8:12

that's the end of that guilt.

8:15

get this in the past, and

8:17

there's one thing you cannot change

8:19

is the past.

8:20

That's very beautiful. And I

8:23

guess the the only thing we have to we

8:25

we can choose how we do things differently

8:27

in the future. We can choose what we do with the

8:29

present, but we can't choose to do

8:31

what

8:31

happened in the past differently? Howard

8:33

Bauchner:

8:33

Yeah, sometimes you you tell

8:36

people, oh, I wish you would have been

8:38

here a week ago. I wish she would have been

8:40

here a month ago. That that

8:44

would have been okay, but you

8:47

know, my daughter is coming for

8:50

and I wish she would be

8:52

here now, but I just have

8:54

to learn how to wait.

8:56

And and I'm

8:57

waiting and I'm I'm I'm

9:00

waiting and waiting

9:02

until she's gonna make a message of

9:04

my kitchen. But that

9:06

that's very that's very

9:08

beautiful and and and actually quite

9:10

freeing. So thank you.

9:12

And it's funny I was talking to her. Her name

9:15

is Dolores. And I was

9:17

talking to her as I was

9:19

preparing to talk to you. And and

9:21

this this question struck me that

9:24

there are very few people

9:26

alive today. You're obviously one

9:28

of them who

9:30

because I

9:30

was reading about the the woman who was

9:33

a friend of Anne Frank's as

9:35

a girl who just recently

9:37

passed. And

9:38

I was thinking how few people

9:41

are alive today, who

9:43

were alive before

9:45

we knew that

9:47

humanity was capable of

9:49

the terrible things that you

9:51

experience in your life.

9:53

Obviously, humanity has always

9:55

been capable and and done

9:57

terrible things, but it but it struck

9:59

me as a as

10:02

a a consciousness that

10:04

is worth maybe exploring or or

10:06

wondering, I I I'm curious what you what you think

10:08

about that idea.

10:10

That

10:10

all you have to do is

10:13

give someone a name and

10:15

then they

10:16

being humans like

10:18

I was called the pariah, and

10:22

cancer to society. And

10:24

that's what happened. You don't

10:26

kill people. You kill cooks

10:28

and you

10:30

know,

10:31

whatever they could do is

10:32

free project. Sure. Kikes.

10:35

Yeah. And

10:37

I think it's important before

10:39

you say anything, ask

10:41

yourself. I do

10:43

that especially when I visit

10:45

my children, having dinner

10:47

and I want to interrupt,

10:49

I ask myself, is it

10:51

important? Is it necessary?

10:54

but most of all is a kind.

10:57

And if it's not kind, I just

10:59

don't say it. maybe,

11:01

Mary, I notice Edith when

11:03

I take my hand and I put it here.

11:06

That means I can't myself

11:08

shut up. Mother enjoy

11:10

the dinner. be a good

11:12

compassionate listener. Yes.

11:14

Because

11:15

that's what I do all day long. I

11:17

listen.

11:19

So do do you think then that

11:22

I was thinking about it. give you a

11:24

go ahead and give you a joke. Yep.

11:26

two two psychiatrists inside

11:29

in the elevator. One of

11:31

them is totally discover. The other

11:33

is put

11:34

all well together, tp

11:36

suit, and you name it.

11:38

So the the chewer one sits to

11:40

them. They are the you

11:42

know, as

11:43

I look at you, the

11:45

way you are put

11:48

all together, I

11:50

wonder how you do it by listening

11:52

to people all day long, and

11:55

the

11:55

guy says,

11:57

positions.

12:00

to put

12:02

God never saw his patients,

12:04

you know. He put them on a couch,

12:07

and he said behind them.

12:10

because the people are so they're

12:13

not.

12:14

So

12:16

so so as we as we think

12:18

about

12:20

coming out of this pandemic

12:22

to go to what we're talking about

12:24

a second ago, as we come out of

12:26

this pandemic, there's obviously different

12:28

kinds of viruses, right? There's Drs virus that

12:30

people spread, you

12:33

know, a

12:36

literal virus, but it also strikes me

12:38

that there are idea viruses. And

12:40

you talked about kindness. Kineness is a

12:42

virus, but so is the lack of

12:44

kindness. And as as we look at the

12:46

horrible things that people are due to each

12:48

other, I am struck by

12:50

how infectious it can

12:52

be.

12:54

especially when a country

12:56

is experiencing

13:00

lack of food, and basic

13:03

necessities, people

13:06

come up with the scapegoats. Yes.

13:09

There

13:10

was a socialist rule divided by

13:13

capitalism and a protestant

13:15

ethics.

13:16

our You can

13:18

pick it up. Yeah.

13:19

And and

13:21

and doctor Inloye, you were saying

13:23

that you your mother never

13:25

talked about her experiences until

13:27

you were what

13:28

twelve that you even learned, what she had

13:31

been through? Why do you think that was?

13:32

Since I've

13:33

moved to New York,

13:35

I've met a lot of people who not a

13:38

lot, but some whose parents were

13:39

holocaust survivors. And

13:42

their

13:42

description of their childhood

13:45

where they sat at dinner and the

13:47

parents talked about the

13:48

way life used to be

13:51

before.

13:52

and and I remembered and

13:54

and how how depressed

13:56

they were for their parents. It just it

13:59

there was so much emotion around

14:01

dinner time. Sure. And I remember

14:03

my father saying to me,

14:05

you know, You can

14:08

always tell who's been suffering

14:10

because the first thing they want to tell you is

14:12

who they

14:12

were before.

14:14

And I was so grateful that he had said

14:17

that because that was not the conversation. We

14:19

talked about the things families talk

14:21

about.

14:22

And the only time that I ever heard much

14:24

about it, I mean,

14:25

I knew that my parents

14:27

parents had died. because I

14:29

had no grandparents. And I

14:31

also knew whenever we watched the

14:33

Olympics that we would watch

14:35

it and my mother would watch and she

14:37

would say Oh, I

14:39

used to do that. Oh, you know, that

14:41

looks hard. It's really not hard.

14:43

Oh,

14:43

look at that. And

14:46

it was I remember thinking to

14:48

myself, really?

14:50

You can

14:50

do that. And I'm

14:52

you can't see, but I'm five foot

14:54

nine. And when I was in college and I had

14:56

to take some athletic stuff and I

14:58

played on the tennis team and I'm an

15:00

athlete, but I'm not Anyway,

15:02

I had to take an extra course. So I thought,

15:04

okay, I'm gonna take something that

15:06

I'll probably be good at because my mother was so

15:08

good at it. So I took gymnastics.

15:11

I cannot tell you how horrible I was

15:13

at gymnastics. I mean,

15:15

it I was I was, like, the worst of

15:18

the worst. And and

15:20

I kept thinking to myself, wait, how

15:22

can this be easy? This is

15:24

not easy. So so

15:26

when we were growing up, Well,

15:29

as I've grown up, I've been very appreciative

15:32

that

15:32

I didn't have to go through my

15:35

early life the way a lot of my

15:36

these people I've met describe their

15:39

lives. And

15:40

and

15:42

the my parents

15:43

were just they they wanted they

15:45

were so grateful

15:46

to be in America. I

15:48

mean,

15:48

the the communists had tried to kill my father.

15:50

You know, it was not not a

15:52

good scene, but they also had to leave all

15:54

their money behind, so they had to come

15:56

and make it here. And that's

15:58

what they were focused on. We're gonna make it.

16:00

It's gonna be okay. I

16:02

didn't know we were poor. We were poor.

16:04

Turns out, I had no idea. My

16:06

mother found a cousin

16:09

of somebody's cousin, I don't know,

16:11

who went on the clothing store. And whenever

16:13

the last bit of sales were

16:15

available, guess she bought me in

16:17

these beautiful clothes. And But let

16:19

me tell you

16:21

the the

16:22

defense mechanisms

16:24

if you also like you

16:27

know, denial. I

16:30

certainly have practiced that

16:32

denial. And a

16:34

minimization that,

16:36

you know, I I just

16:38

didn't want to get into anything.

16:41

But, you know, survivors

16:43

ran two ways. They either

16:45

didn't wanna

16:46

say anything or they talked

16:48

about it or the time mean, I was a young

16:50

age. I did this and that.

16:52

And yeah. No. No. No.

16:55

So I think it's very important.

16:57

to hopefully write the

17:00

book and and

17:02

see the word

17:04

the the

17:05

way it is

17:07

for you because I

17:11

wonder I

17:14

wonder the

17:16

messages that you carried

17:19

with

17:19

you because I know my mother

17:22

told me After

17:23

two beautiful girls, I

17:26

wanted a son, but

17:27

she said to me, I'm glad

17:29

you have brands.

17:30

because you have

17:31

no looks. And that is,

17:33

you know, that

17:36

is the way I picture

17:39

myself. I am a good

17:41

student. I have my own book

17:43

club, but don't

17:45

think that should pretty ever.

17:47

That's

17:47

not what you wanna hear from your

17:50

mom. I imagine. Yeah.

17:53

My

17:53

mom my mom

17:56

was

17:56

oh

17:57

amazingly ahead

17:59

of her time.

18:02

them I

18:03

know we're at together going with the

18:06

wind,

18:06

and she was talking to me

18:09

about

18:09

Tara. and I

18:11

thought to myself someday,

18:13

I'm gonna go sit there and

18:16

I did,

18:17

I did, I

18:19

did, I go and I see the Southern

18:22

America

18:23

that

18:24

is

18:26

just quite amazing I

18:29

was actually

18:29

in building a cabin at

18:32

about nine

18:33

girls were shot

18:36

and

18:36

killed So

18:38

I so, unfortunately,

18:41

a

18:41

lot of

18:43

a lot of things in America

18:46

when people

18:47

were killing especially

18:49

Indians? Yeah.

18:51

It strikes me as a sort

18:54

of a through line of the twentieth

18:56

century that human beings do

18:58

bad things to each other

19:02

on all on

19:04

all continents for which there

19:06

is life. I know some

19:07

Have your first born child?

19:10

I am

19:10

the oldest. Yes. If

19:12

you

19:12

marry your first born, you're

19:15

gonna have two bosses

19:16

And but I don't see that in my

19:18

daughter's case, they

19:21

both have

19:23

first born children that's

19:25

the

19:25

best Marianne. The best

19:29

conversation, at least. I never

19:32

put each other down. Yes,

19:34

but you did. And yes, but I never

19:36

hear that. They are extremely

19:40

brilliant how to how

19:42

to empower

19:44

each other with their

19:47

differences. Dr. Engel,

19:48

were you going to say something?

19:50

You know, I'm still And I just wanna say

19:53

that my son-in-law got

19:55

a prize Drs economics.

19:59

He actually he actually helped

20:01

get me settled. So he

20:04

he met Rob. Brian met

20:06

Rob.

20:07

for a second. The thing I was

20:09

gonna say is that I think that

20:12

it's I think relationships

20:16

between mothers and daughters are always

20:18

complicated

20:19

and and

20:20

also joyful. And

20:22

and I

20:25

think that my mother

20:27

really

20:28

worked hard at making me feel

20:31

like I could do

20:32

whatever I wanted to do. I

20:35

just

20:35

had to do them. And

20:36

she was not the kind of mother who

20:38

checked my homework. She's, you

20:40

know, she was not she was

20:42

not busy. We had her own career. I

20:44

had sister and a brother. My

20:47

father was making his way and with

20:50

his with his company. You

20:52

know, she wasn't

20:53

that kind of mother, but I also

20:56

knew that if there was something I thought

20:58

was important to do you

20:59

know, do it.

21:00

And that and that that kind

21:02

of message and watching her do

21:05

what she needed to do step

21:07

by step. I

21:09

think

21:09

has been so critical

21:11

for me

21:12

and my life. And I think

21:14

that

21:14

all mothers, I'm a

21:17

mother, grandmother, I

21:18

think it's so important for children to feel that

21:20

we take seriously what

21:23

they think is important. And

21:26

and then

21:27

we can talk about maybe what they do with

21:29

that or whatever. But but taking

21:31

children seriously is something that

21:33

not every family does. And

21:36

yet yet maybe

21:37

by avoiding some of the other things, they took

21:39

some of my things more seriously.

21:41

Well,

21:42

you you mentioned earlier oh,

21:44

go ahead, doctor Eli. I don't know

21:47

I don't know if you were. because

21:51

the wife makes the husband feel

21:53

that he makes all the decisions

21:56

and gets who does make the

21:58

decision. So when

21:59

brought home Rob, my

22:02

husband asked me

22:06

quietly.

22:06

Is she

22:07

still a virgin? And

22:10

I said yes. Yeah.

22:12

They've been only living

22:14

together I don't know a couple of years,

22:16

but I said yes.

22:18

And then he asked

22:21

me, is he ever gonna make

22:23

a living? Yes. He's

22:26

gonna make a living alright.

22:30

So these are the

22:32

father questions

22:33

that I tell

22:36

him what he really wanted to

22:38

hear.

22:38

Alright.

22:43

Alright. You were

22:44

telling me doctor

22:46

Dr. Engle earlier that

22:49

you're you were a psychologist before your

22:51

mother that that your mother had gotten the

22:53

advice that, you know, you're gonna be

22:55

fifty anyway. you might as

22:57

well go back to school and when you're fifty

22:59

or get your job when you're fifty.

23:01

I'm curious

23:02

how that example of

23:04

watching your mother persevere not just,

23:07

you know, to the things that happened

23:09

before you were born, but then

23:10

also make her way as,

23:13

you know, an immigrant to a new

23:15

country in a

23:17

profession, I imagine at that time almost

23:19

entirely dominated by men.

23:23

How did you what have you learned

23:25

from from watching how your mother

23:27

tackles the the the things that

23:29

life deals deals

23:31

her.

23:31

You know,

23:35

You can probably

23:36

tell, but my mother's pretty adorable.

23:39

And

23:39

and

23:42

So when she puts her mind to something and she

23:44

works hard at it and she

23:46

wants it badly, you want it

23:48

for her

23:49

too. because

23:51

you

23:51

love her and you wanna see her

23:53

do and succeed

23:56

and be you

23:58

know, that's the beauty of parenting if

24:00

you can do it in a way that

24:03

you

24:03

can keep

24:04

the kids adoring you.

24:07

because usually little kids adore their

24:09

parents. It just sort of gets worse as

24:11

time goes on. And

24:12

but she was she's always

24:14

been very good at just kind of keeping us

24:16

on her side.

24:18

And so, you know, for her

24:20

to go to graduate school,

24:22

long after, I

24:23

I mean, I went to graduate school when I

24:25

when I was twenty. I

24:26

finished college or I mean,

24:29

I

24:29

skipped a grade in school. I did college

24:32

quickly. I married Rob when I was twenty one, which

24:34

horrified my parents, frankly. But

24:36

I wanted

24:37

him, and that's what

24:40

I did. And, you know, and here

24:42

she is in her

24:44

forties thinking about, well,

24:46

should I go to graduate school and she just

24:48

really finished college and

24:50

doing some school teaching.

24:52

It just seemed like

24:53

such a wonderful trip

24:56

for

24:56

her to take to me.

24:59

and she worked really hard. The the problem with

25:01

my mother and you you don't see it when you

25:03

look at her is she is the world's

25:05

hardest worker. So if if if

25:07

an assignment says that you have to read this

25:10

thing and write that thing, she

25:12

will read that this thing,

25:14

plus the three things that author

25:16

decided it was important first.

25:18

And then she writes a paper, and then

25:20

she's worried the paper is not good enough, so we

25:22

all have to read her and chat

25:24

about it, and then she rewrites the paper,

25:26

and then she turns it in and low

25:28

and behold, she gets amazing grades and

25:30

does really, really well. Nobody works

25:33

that hard. but she

25:35

does. And so

25:37

she knows pretty much everything

25:39

there

25:39

is to know about a lot of different things,

25:41

which,

25:41

you know, makes you admire somebody

25:44

for that?

25:46

I

25:46

think the respect is

25:49

so important. that you

25:50

look at your parents as a child

25:53

and you say that someday I

25:55

wanna

25:55

be like,

25:57

him. Or

25:59

you want to say, when

26:01

I grow up, I'll never be like

26:04

him. I'm

26:04

gonna be everything he's not

26:07

that

26:07

may shift sometimes more than

26:09

the

26:09

other one.

26:11

Because

26:13

you wanna prove something And

26:15

if you wanna prove

26:16

anything, you're still a prisoner.

26:18

You gotta make peace

26:20

with your parents.

26:21

program and

26:22

divorced real parents, and

26:25

then you have a good adult relationship

26:28

with each

26:29

other.

26:32

I have

26:32

no shame in saying that I am an avid

26:35

Amazon shopper. My family

26:37

use it all the time. I was just using it

26:39

yesterday to buy some sharps, I

26:41

buy most of the things that I need on Amazon.

26:44

And of course, this holiday season, I'll be

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28:06

That

28:09

strikes me as the the the

28:12

theme in the course that you

28:14

guys did together the idea of

28:16

forgiveness. I know I I've struggled with

28:18

this. It it can be

28:20

hard to forgive your not

28:22

just for stuff that they may have done, but but

28:24

for who they were or weren't depending

28:26

on what you wanted or

28:28

or who who you are,

28:30

I think the the struggle to forgive

28:33

and move on and

28:35

and adjust the relationship

28:38

to one of equals or one of

28:40

sort of mutual understanding. That's

28:42

a very difficult transition

28:44

for people to make. It

28:46

is. It is. It's Do

28:48

you know when I

28:49

spoke to

28:51

when

28:51

I spoke to one

28:54

thing, she told me that I

28:56

tell everybody. She told me

28:58

I don't have any god who power

29:01

to to to

29:02

forgive anybody. The only

29:05

thing I can do is give

29:07

myself a gift that

29:09

I let go of part

29:12

of me who is judgmental.

29:14

Yeah. I think

29:14

I think the beauty in that course

29:16

that my mother and Jordan have put

29:19

together is that there are so many

29:22

psychology lessons to learn

29:25

from it. And you don't even

29:26

have to go to therapist you

29:28

know, you just really listen and do the

29:31

exercises that they've put together. And

29:34

and

29:34

and

29:36

this thing about forgiveness,

29:38

you know, it's so

29:41

hard for it's so hard in

29:43

general to two

29:45

let let

29:46

it go. And yet if you don't let

29:48

it go, you're carrying it around and it affects

29:51

everything. And

29:52

and Jordan

29:54

gave me today some

29:57

of the videos

30:01

that some of the people in the course have sent

30:03

to him. He asked for people

30:06

to give feedback. And

30:09

I I sat there eating my

30:11

bunch crying because the

30:13

things that people were saying about how

30:15

does it help them with

30:17

their children, with their husbands,

30:19

with their wives, with

30:23

accepting themselves, And

30:24

and these are really

30:25

healthy looking people that are doing this. So, you

30:28

know, and it it

30:30

was making such a difference. And

30:32

it it actually made me cry. and

30:34

Rob saw me crying as I'm eating my

30:36

lunch. And he says, let me let let

30:38

let me hear that. And

30:41

this big

30:41

athletic, smart man,

30:44

tears start coming down his face.

30:46

I mean, that's the effect.

30:49

that this kind of stuff can have on people.

30:51

It's so real.

30:53

Yeah.

30:55

I'm very

30:56

proud of them. Well, you call

30:58

you've you called forgiveness a gift

31:00

that you give yourself. Right?

31:03

Well,

31:03

you know, it is

31:06

it is forgiving yourself,

31:08

like, for you with that

31:08

woman that you you

31:11

didn't take the time to stay close to

31:13

her because you had a life to

31:15

live and frankly, you were probably doing the more

31:17

appropriate thing. But

31:20

it's amazing how many messages we give

31:23

ourselves about

31:24

about things that

31:25

we feel regretful of or

31:27

sad about or wish we had done differently

31:29

on and on and

31:32

on. And one of the things we talk

31:34

about is you give yourself permission

31:36

until my patience is, okay, you

31:38

get seven minutes a day.

31:40

to say all

31:41

the negative things about yourself that

31:43

you wanna say. And if you don't have

31:45

seven minutes, you can have three.

31:47

and then it's over. If anything, the thought comes

31:50

to during the day, you say, no, no, this is not

31:52

my moment to do that. I have to wait

31:54

for my right time.

31:56

And and once people start to let

31:59

that

31:59

go, they get a lot

32:00

more done and

32:03

they

32:03

begin to grow inside

32:05

themselves in a way that they hadn't allowed themselves

32:07

to do before. So,

32:09

Ryan,

32:09

what are you thinking? I'm watching

32:11

your you Ryan, it's one of

32:13

the more Doctor

32:14

Uder. Go ahead. I just

32:16

wanna say that when

32:19

my daughter was

32:22

two

32:22

years old when we came to America.

32:24

She went to

32:25

a day care center,

32:27

and the lady, missus

32:29

Bauer, told me when

32:31

a child is crying and

32:33

home sick, then

32:35

they send my daughter Mary

32:37

Marianne to calm their child

32:39

down. So she was already practicing

32:42

at the at the age of

32:45

to So there

32:47

you go. There you go.

32:50

People

32:50

come to me and tell

32:52

me, oh, I saw your baby you

32:54

do that thirty years ago, and

32:57

I never forget that I

32:59

became a different parent than

33:01

I was before. I don't

33:03

punish anymore. There are

33:05

already I have no punishment. There

33:08

are consequences. And

33:10

so

33:10

is so she

33:13

tells me that

33:15

her children changed, her

33:17

parents changed, and also

33:19

her marriage most of

33:22

what changed. Dr. Engel,

33:23

what what were you saying?

33:25

Girl. Well, I was thinking if you

33:28

don't if you don't grow.

33:31

I

33:31

was looking at you reacting, and I was wondering

33:33

what you were thinking. As my

33:35

mother says,

33:35

you looked like A0II don't know.

33:37

III find this

33:39

Well,

33:41

that that that's very kind.

33:44

III find this all to be very,

33:47

very interesting. I I'll I'll transition a

33:49

little bit. I I I'd be curious, doctor

33:51

eatery, you said earlier that I was

33:53

an old soul. I I've I've never

33:55

been totally sure what that has

33:58

meant, but I have found that

34:00

I

34:00

have had

34:01

a a number of friendships with people who

34:04

are much, much older than I am

34:06

and I always find being in the presence

34:08

of of someone who has spent a lot

34:10

of time on

34:12

this earth that there's kind of an energy or a wisdom that comes

34:14

from that, that I'm always interested

34:16

in sort of

34:18

downloading and incorporating

34:20

into my life. So maybe that's where it comes from. Howard Bauchner:

34:23

I think it also

34:24

comes from the fact that

34:28

you I I mean, I think

34:30

when we when we say children

34:32

seem like old souls, it

34:34

means that they they are

34:36

thoughtful and they don't just jump in

34:38

on things. and they

34:40

think a lot about

34:42

consequences of things and how things

34:44

work and

34:46

and they're more

34:48

interested in a bigger

34:51

picture. Because, you know, if

34:53

you really wanna make it simple,

34:56

People people either have something what

34:58

they don't want or

35:01

they have something but they

35:04

want to get rid of. I

35:06

mean, you can really make it

35:08

simple. You either have

35:10

something where to don't want Oh, do you want

35:12

something what you don't

35:14

have? I love that. I

35:16

was I was thinking about forgiveness too. I I

35:18

read an interesting article day. I'd be curious

35:20

for both of your takes on this, but I read an interesting

35:22

article the other day that was suggesting that as

35:24

we come out of the pandemic, we need to

35:26

we need some form of pandemic amnesty.

35:29

She was saying that we we all got the the whole

35:31

thing so wrong. Some people took it too

35:34

seriously. Some people didn't take it

35:36

seriously enough. But the result

35:38

is, you know, there's a lot of tension, a lot of

35:40

hatred, a lot of resentment, a lot of

35:42

division, and that ultimately people have

35:44

to to

35:46

come together and move past what has happened because it's in

35:48

the past. And when

35:50

I first read that, my initial reaction

35:54

was was one objection because I felt

35:56

like it's a false equivalency.

35:58

Right? To some people took

35:59

it seriously, other people didn't take

36:02

it seriously at all. There Drs real consequences

36:04

for one of those attitudes and

36:06

not so much for the other.

36:08

But that's then I

36:08

thought about it more and it struck me that that really is what

36:11

forgiveness is about. It's supposed

36:13

to be it's supposed to be hard.

36:15

If

36:15

it's easy to forgive Forgiving,

36:18

you're probably not actually talking about a matter that

36:20

requires much in the way of forgiveness.

36:26

I

36:26

think that

36:30

I consider a gift

36:32

that you give

36:34

to yourself. that you let

36:36

go

36:36

of the part in you

36:38

that

36:39

is judgmental. And what you

36:41

don't

36:41

like in another

36:44

person you wanna look at that in you. You you

36:46

wanna find

36:46

the bigger in you and

36:49

and

36:49

then then you're going to really look

36:51

at that person.

36:54

as a human being and as human

36:56

beings, we make mistakes, but

36:58

that doesn't make me

36:59

a

37:01

bad person. what I have what

37:04

I think

37:05

can change. And I

37:06

think it's really important what

37:10

you're doing because

37:12

you're going back to the originators. Right?

37:16

Mhmm.

37:16

That's that's what

37:17

Socrates

37:18

said. And

37:21

the next time and life is not worth

37:23

living, and you examine

37:25

that

37:25

life as

37:28

to not

37:29

by me, but what

37:31

now? You

37:32

can't change the past.

37:36

So I

37:36

have a different How how have you

37:37

dealt with forgiveness though yet? You you did you

37:39

didn't emerge what

37:42

you I'll make

37:44

sure to follow-up there. Yes.

37:46

But Drs. Eager, what

37:49

was done to you

37:51

was done by bad people. And it

37:53

was a bad thing. How how did not carry with you

37:56

anger and resentment? And

37:58

how how can you find it within

38:00

you

38:02

forgive what I think some people would

38:03

call utterly unforgivable.

38:06

There is no

38:07

forgiveness without grace.

38:10

you gotta go through the rage, you gotta take

38:13

your fist, and you want

38:15

to really possibly

38:19

put

38:19

your father in a chair and

38:21

tie him up and do a

38:23

little guest out there

38:25

and beat him up. for

38:27

not really giving you that bicycle

38:29

when you really wanted it

38:31

so badly and just

38:33

really keep giving give him a number that you

38:35

can release in you

38:40

that

38:40

feeling that if

38:41

your father would have known

38:44

better, he would have done

38:46

better. Howard Bauchner: And and

38:47

doctor Engel, you said you disagreed

38:49

a little Oh,

38:50

back to the pandemic. You know, I think so

38:52

my husband and I travel a lot.

38:54

I mean, a lot. And we

38:56

both

38:57

give talks, and it's it's

39:00

a very lucky part of our lives and we

39:02

enjoy it. But it also

39:04

means that especially in this

39:06

COVID period, we didn't travel at and we

39:08

just start traveling again. And

39:11

different countries, different people

39:14

have handled

39:16

the COVID

39:16

thing

39:17

issue

39:19

time very

39:21

differently. And

39:23

the thing that I find a very

39:25

hard Sure.

39:27

and it happens happened

39:30

yesterday is the

39:30

people who refused to get

39:33

vaccinated. The people

39:34

who refused to do the

39:36

things that would -- Mhmm. -- keep

39:37

them healthy and help

39:38

keep other people who live around

39:41

them healthy. And And

39:44

we we know a lot of highly educated people. We

39:46

also know people who are not

39:49

as highly educated who often seem

39:51

to be more logical. about

39:54

things, not always. But

39:58

it's

39:58

not over. So

39:59

I really want any of your listeners

40:02

who are listening. to

40:03

understand that it's not

40:06

over, that

40:06

COVID is still with us, there

40:08

are new

40:09

kinds of COVID that are easy to

40:11

get, easier to get,

40:13

and

40:14

you can still transfer

40:16

it

40:16

to your children and to

40:19

other people around you.

40:22

And we

40:23

can't pretend that something isn't there when

40:24

it's really there. And so

40:26

I I'm I'm I

40:29

I, at the moment, have

40:31

this issue, and I'm trying to be more

40:34

forgiving and understanding.

40:36

But I still think people are really stupid.

40:39

who aren't taking good care of themselves

40:41

and they're and they're threatening other

40:43

people. And so I guess I have

40:45

to work on this forgiveness

40:48

thing, but that's where I am

40:50

with COVID right now. So I don't think it's

40:52

over. It's more

40:52

over than it was when we were all

40:54

staying at home and not going anywhere. but

40:57

it's not over over. And and the more

40:59

we pretend, I think, that it's

41:02

gone.

41:02

hi The

41:04

more damage

41:06

we're gonna be putting ourselves into and our families

41:08

and the people we love.

41:11

So

41:11

that's not what

41:12

you were asking, but it is No.

41:15

III totally

41:18

agree. Yeah. No. No.

41:20

It's it's totally I I totally agree that

41:22

it's where I am and that's why this idea

41:24

of forgiving, moving on, accepting that people were in air, that people had

41:26

different views on things. It

41:28

struck me as so diff

41:29

viscerally Edith

41:32

cool. Right? because I I still feel inside of it,

41:34

but there it also struck me as some

41:36

truth to the idea that you

41:40

can't you can't

41:40

continue to re litigate something that's already happened and you

41:43

can't hold on to anger or rage -- Right. --

41:45

like your mother was saying that but

41:47

perhaps the part of it is that we have to move through that

41:50

rage. And I and I definitely

41:52

feel like I have it, you know, when you look at

41:54

something that cost a million

41:56

lives in America alone, so many of

41:58

those being totally

41:59

preventable. I said, it's hard not to

42:02

fuel anger.

42:04

Right. Right. Let me tell you let

42:06

me give you an exam.

42:08

Please? After after

42:12

after Let's

42:14

say I give a talk and I

42:16

come to

42:17

you and I tell you I

42:19

hope we can become

42:22

friends I

42:22

utilized

42:23

my dog and you look at

42:26

me and say,

42:28

thank you.

42:30

but

42:30

I'm really not interested. So look

42:32

what happens. The best formula that

42:35

were in the English

42:36

language is to risk

42:40

I

42:40

was risking. I asked you what I wanted,

42:42

and I didn't get it. Yeah.

42:44

It's all about the expectation.

42:47

So, thejection is

42:48

an English word that people

42:51

make up to express a feeling

42:53

when you don't get what

42:56

you want. So give up the drama. No one can

42:58

reject me, but

42:59

me.

43:00

You don't have that

43:02

power. you

43:04

have as much power of me, as

43:07

much as

43:07

I let you have it.

43:09

The nazi school

43:10

of mail for lying I

43:13

was every day. I'm never gonna get

43:15

back to funeral life.

43:17

And, obviously,

43:18

there is a little

43:20

book called the four agreements

43:23

why you

43:24

have that book. And

43:26

one of them says, don't take it

43:29

personally. Don't

43:30

take it personally take

43:32

it personally. I I think that's

43:33

at the root of a lot of what what upsets me is, yeah, you take it

43:35

personally. It feels like a rejection of view.

43:37

It feels like a

43:40

rejection of our shared humanity. It feels

43:44

it it feels personally hurtful, but

43:46

you're right. The stoics would say,

43:49

The event is objective. It's our view.

43:51

The story we tell ourselves about

43:53

that thing. That's actually what's

43:56

at the root of our suffering or

43:58

our anger.

43:58

You know, I was lecturing

44:00

in Germany

44:02

and in Berlin and

44:05

some of the streets I

44:08

named after Jews. I

44:10

I thought the Marsaver,

44:14

that's very

44:16

interesting. It was Einstein and, you know, people

44:18

who really made history.

44:20

made to said

44:21

Yeah. And

44:23

so

44:25

you want to delay,

44:27

maybe think about not

44:29

to make

44:32

things better

44:34

or worse, is just that, look

44:36

at it,

44:36

that if it would be you, maybe

44:39

you have

44:40

done things differently,

44:43

because

44:43

I know a German

44:45

woman died, and

44:46

they asked her, why

44:48

did she risk her life to

44:51

save Jewish lives? And

44:53

she father told me that

44:54

was the right thing to

44:58

do. So

45:00

don't cover

45:00

twelve years of Italy. Right?

45:02

That all Germans are not

45:05

just. Don't generalize.

45:06

internet

45:07

Sure.

45:09

the that people, I think There

45:11

is enough in every one of

45:14

them. One

45:16

of

45:16

the things my mother often gets asked

45:18

is how did you forgive

45:22

Hitler? And she

45:22

always says, I'll let you do this

45:24

too, mom. But I don't

45:26

forgive. It's not about

45:28

that. It's

45:29

about being able to

45:32

move forward with my

45:34

life. You can't

45:36

forgive those kind of access

45:38

It's exactly what you said. There's no forgiving that.

45:40

But if you stay and live

45:42

with it, your entire life,

45:45

then

45:46

who won,

45:48

not

45:50

you? There's a

45:50

there's a line for Marcus Reelis

45:53

and Meditations. He says, the best revenge

45:55

is to not be like that. Yes. And think about that, not

45:57

not just to not

45:59

do what a

46:02

terrible

46:02

person has done, but also

46:04

not to let that terrible person

46:07

make you into something that

46:10

is closer to them.

46:12

Yes. So Dr. Eager,

46:14

I'll just ask you that question then, because I'd

46:16

be curious to hear it in your words. how

46:18

how do you forgive Hitler or

46:21

the prison guards or

46:23

the people who knew

46:25

what was happening within those

46:28

walls, but just went about

46:29

their life as if it was of no

46:32

concern

46:34

to them. you

46:34

know, there are many defense

46:35

mechanisms. And one of

46:38

them is denial, and the

46:40

other one would be

46:42

deluging or but one of

46:44

the things that we sometimes

46:46

do be minimized. You know,

46:48

it wasn't

46:48

such a bad thing, you know,

46:51

so on. I think a feeling

46:54

is

46:54

a feeling and it

46:56

comes from the heart rather

46:59

than coming from the mind that you try to men

47:01

want to figure things out, you

47:04

know, that they

47:04

go to the head and

47:07

women seem to

47:09

go in a heart. And I think I

47:11

have a very special place

47:13

in my

47:14

heart, and I

47:16

was able to

47:17

change nature. to pity.

47:20

I

47:20

felt sorry for the God that

47:22

they were wearing a

47:24

uniform and they're hitting me

47:27

because

47:27

they were listening

47:30

to

47:30

someone

47:31

who told them that Jews

47:34

are cancer

47:36

to society. I think we

47:38

need to question authority rather than

47:40

blindly adhere to authority.

47:44

because that's what I was taught.

47:46

You know, when the war

47:47

started thinking, I started

47:49

high school with

47:52

a thought. we

47:54

were taught that up to

47:56

not the

47:57

question

47:59

of

47:59

authority. But blindly attempt

48:02

to authority. and

48:04

I

48:04

think you are an ambassador for

48:07

peace and goodwill.

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today. I was just doing a

49:05

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49:07

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49:09

already like five or six

49:11

times on Audible. That's so cool. Not

49:13

only do I love hearing people that read my books, but when they've

49:16

listened to the audiobook, I know we

49:18

have this connection

49:20

as a result of the time

49:22

that they've spent, which is why I love

49:24

Audible. It's why I take the time to

49:26

record my own audiobooks on

49:29

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49:32

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50:04

stoic.

50:06

So so

50:08

part of the way that you you forgive the

50:10

un forgivable is realizing well,

50:12

you'd mentioned Socrates earlier. His point

50:14

was that nobody does wrong on purpose.

50:18

that that that they have been misled

50:20

or that they are weak willed or

50:22

weak minded, that that they have been

50:26

captured or misdirected.

50:28

So so for part part

50:31

of it for you is is finding

50:33

something to pity in the in

50:35

the big hit or the

50:37

criminal or the the abuser? Is that the

50:40

idea? I

50:40

wear a blouse that

50:42

has hats on it.

50:45

hats. I I don't

50:48

know if

50:48

you can see it. It's beautiful. But

50:50

I love

50:51

Camp Camporo. I

50:54

think

50:55

it's it's

50:56

I had a white supremacy boy

51:00

coming

51:00

to me, and he got

51:01

up and he said,

51:03

lay dark.

51:03

One thing I'm gonna do, I'm

51:06

gonna kill all the Jews.

51:08

Now I'm gonna give you the difference

51:10

between reacting

51:12

or responding. If I would

51:14

have

51:14

reacted, I would have directed

51:16

him to the corner. I probably

51:18

would have stopped on him and tell

51:22

him, hey, I

51:22

saw my mother going to the guest and

51:26

but but I was not

51:27

told to do that. I was

51:30

told to to

51:32

create an environment that

51:34

my patients

51:35

can feel any feelings without

51:38

the fear of

51:40

being judged. So

51:41

I said, down me

51:44

mode. And I said

51:46

back, he never

51:47

found out to

51:49

I was or nothing everyone about

51:52

that. But of course, she belonged

51:53

to a guy called

51:56

David Koresh if

51:58

she wanna do somebody's in

51:59

Texas, he was heading

52:02

the white supremacy

52:04

group. Stoic

52:06

so

52:06

it's about finding when you say find the

52:08

bigoted in you, it's it's finding some

52:11

shared humanity. Is

52:13

it finding what evil

52:15

is in them in yourself or is it finding

52:18

what good is in yourself

52:20

is in them or is

52:22

it both? except to me, but I

52:23

choose. I

52:28

don't have

52:29

to like everything.

52:30

the but

52:32

I don't have to love everyone,

52:34

but I can

52:35

really choose some

52:38

of the

52:40

things that I can see some

52:42

hope and hope that's nice. I I look for

52:44

I look for the

52:48

good

52:48

in everything.

52:52

Outlets

52:52

of the schoolroom, And

52:56

I learned how not

52:58

to judge other people

53:00

and how to change hatred

53:03

to pity. It it also

53:04

strikes me, you know, reading the choice

53:07

that there's there's the beautiful

53:09

moment in your story where you

53:11

you share the bread that you

53:13

were given. And and some some

53:15

time later, you're saved by the

53:17

people that you shared that gift

53:19

with. And so there's

53:20

this idea that we give

53:23

what we want right,

53:26

that you put love and kindness and

53:28

selflessness out into the world and

53:30

sometime later, although you didn't expect

53:33

anything in return that's that's

53:35

precisely what you did get return even in such a dark and

53:38

terrible place. You're talking

53:41

about yourself. you

53:44

are the ambassador for

53:46

peace. And please continue because

53:50

they'll never

53:51

ever be anyone

53:55

they run has

53:56

committed to

53:59

development

53:59

of mankind and I am

54:02

on your side. You

54:04

can call me anytime day or

54:06

night, and

54:08

I will let you know

54:10

you have choices because the more choices

54:12

you have, the less you're

54:14

ever gonna feel like a victim.

54:18

I

54:18

refused to be a victim. I was victimized.

54:20

It's not who I

54:22

am. It's not my identity. It's

54:24

what was done to me. difference.

54:28

And

54:28

you chose the the stoics

54:30

would Stoic, we don't control

54:32

what's happened, but we control

54:34

what we do next. or we

54:37

control how we respond to what happens. And that strikes me

54:39

also as the story of your life.

54:41

You didn't control where you

54:43

went, you didn't control how long you

54:45

were there. You didn't control the horrible things that

54:48

happened while you were there. But you

54:50

did write the rest of that

54:52

story and you wrote you wrote a pretty

54:54

wonderful one. It's it's incredible for me to

54:56

be talking to three generations of

54:58

your family here in in one in

55:00

one sitting. That's the rest of the

55:02

story. Right?

55:03

Many people

55:04

have

55:05

told me for many years,

55:08

write a book, write a book, and

55:09

I would say, I have

55:11

nothing to say. I have nothing to

55:13

say. And then morning, Philippe Zimbardo calls

55:16

me from

55:18

Santa from

55:21

House for the Stanford. Oh,

55:23

Stanford. Pardon

55:24

me? Stanford. From Stanford.

55:28

And this is what

55:30

they said. you know, e

55:32

d,

55:32

the people who survived and

55:34

are famous.

55:38

our

55:38

old man, we need a female voice.

55:42

So the choice

55:43

is the female

55:46

voice. of Victor Franco. But I'm Victor

55:48

Franco because

55:48

he was thirty some

55:51

years old. And in

55:54

Auschwitz, he was a medical

55:56

doctor and I was sixteen

55:58

years old in

55:59

love because my

56:02

boyfriend told me I have beautiful

56:04

eyes. and

56:05

beautiful hands. And I

56:08

knew if I survived today,

56:10

tomorrow, I'm gonna

56:11

see him. Tomorrow

56:14

became a

56:14

big red in my Are you

56:17

familiar

56:18

with the

56:19

idea of the

56:22

Stockdale paradox

56:24

Do you know what

56:25

that is? The the the

56:26

the Stockdale paradox. So so James

56:29

Stockdale who was in the the

56:31

prison camps in Vietnam, he

56:33

he said that the paradox

56:36

is you have to

56:38

unflinciently accept the reality of the

56:40

situation that you're in. So that was that he

56:42

was in prison, that he was being tortured, that

56:44

people he knew were dying.

56:46

But but the the paradoxical

56:48

part of it was that he said, I never

56:50

gave up hope that I would

56:52

write the rest of the story, that in

56:54

retrospect, I could turn this

56:56

into an event, an

56:58

experience for which I would not

57:00

trade away. And I'm just

57:02

curious what you think of that

57:04

paradox having been in a

57:06

similarly dark situation. His

57:08

was influenced by stoicism, but

57:10

how did you think about your ability

57:12

to your choice to use your framing, to

57:14

to to make this into

57:18

something that made the world

57:20

a better place. Howard Bauchner: I

57:22

just want to stay right there. I think I

57:24

can remove

57:25

me.

57:26

Yeah. Yes.

57:28

mom,

57:28

you know James Stockwell. He came to our house. Yeah.

57:30

Victor, fucking.

57:34

You know James Stockwell. He came

57:35

to our house. for

57:38

the fourth of July, one year.

57:40

You may not

57:41

remember. Wow. Before you So

57:44

I'm sure I'm sure

57:46

in yet. You you met them. You met them. You haven't

57:48

I know. The thing that was so

57:50

wonderful, Ryan. That's why I wanted to go.

57:53

was that the two of them got a

57:56

my mother has has a friend who used to

57:58

be the head of the Navy in San

57:59

Diego. And he came with his wife

58:02

and they brought Jim Stropa.

58:04

And he got up and introduced

58:06

them to the

58:08

party. It was the

58:09

most unbelievable

58:12

moment to see both these survivors different

58:14

things

58:14

who both

58:16

were the most positive

58:19

lovely

58:20

people. You were so happy to be in their presence. You

58:23

knew something absolutely horrendous

58:25

that happened to them that you wish would never

58:27

happen to anybody. You

58:30

knew. and yet what they gave to the rest of us,

58:32

they are celebrating fourth of July,

58:35

was

58:37

unforgettable. just

58:38

as you described. So, mom, if you remember,

58:40

it's a long time ago, but

58:42

you've met him. Now,

58:46

there

58:48

there Yes.

58:50

Thank

58:50

you. Thank you. Thank you. That's

58:52

why I have a do that.

58:56

I remember Thank

58:56

you.

58:58

What what

59:00

do you

59:01

remember of him?

59:03

Well, I just

59:04

remembered that he was,

59:06

as you described, that,

59:09

you know, he he didn't really want

59:11

to talk about all the horrible things that happened,

59:14

but he was willing to answer some questions about

59:16

it. Because what

59:16

you saw in his eyes, like you

59:19

see in my mother's eyes, you know, it's

59:21

like I'm glad I lived. I'm glad I'm here.

59:22

I look forward to tomorrow. I'm

59:24

glad

59:24

everybody's here. This is a great

59:27

day. It's America's birthday. and

59:30

there's some good food around here. Let's have that

59:32

too. You know, I mean, he

59:33

was

59:35

so human.

59:39

curious that we have to

59:42

survive.

59:43

curiosity always wanted to

59:45

know

59:45

what's going to

59:48

happen next. because I

59:48

became very suicide or after

59:51

I was liberated, my parents

59:53

didn't come back, my

59:55

boyfriend was killed, and

59:57

I have nothing, no meaning, no

59:59

purpose in my life, and I

1:00:02

really wanted

1:00:04

to

1:00:04

die.

1:00:05

And I knew

1:00:06

that there was

1:00:09

that

1:00:10

voice. Someone

1:00:12

just told me that I really made a big big mistake

1:00:14

that I didn't mention

1:00:16

God in my book. So

1:00:22

I I don't have to mention

1:00:24

God.

1:00:24

I I know my God because

1:00:26

God

1:00:27

was with me. in

1:00:30

Auschwitz have guided me

1:00:33

to

1:00:33

recognize that life

1:00:36

is temporary

1:00:36

the emperor and

1:00:38

and we

1:00:40

can make it by

1:00:42

just believing in a present

1:00:45

and to think young

1:00:48

not

1:00:48

young and foolish. So

1:00:50

that's what, you know, ninety

1:00:52

five is, I'm curious. and

1:00:55

I'm so happy that when I

1:00:58

die, I will

1:00:59

be remembered

1:01:01

as someone who

1:01:02

did everything in her power to see to it, that that

1:01:05

will never happen again.

1:01:06

never happen again

1:01:08

That's

1:01:10

a that's

1:01:10

a very beautiful thought. And I think maybe maybe

1:01:12

the right the the right place to wrap

1:01:14

up unless either of you had any

1:01:16

last thoughts that you wanted to to

1:01:19

share with this audience. Howard Bauchner:

1:01:20

I just want to thank you. I think

1:01:21

this has been really good, really interesting.

1:01:23

And I know and

1:01:26

I've follow the lot of

1:01:28

your work, and I think that you are,

1:01:30

you know, you're just

1:01:32

one of

1:01:33

our kind. It's very sweet

1:01:35

to see

1:01:36

it. Well, that

1:01:38

means a

1:01:39

lot to say. Can I tell

1:01:41

you a thanksgiving story?

1:01:43

Please. And then

1:01:46

them when they came to America. Mary

1:01:48

Anne came home one day and told

1:01:50

me to buy a turkey because

1:01:54

Thanksgiving coming

1:01:55

up. And, of course, I didn't know whether

1:01:57

you'd drink it or eat it or

1:01:59

sickness or whether it but I knew I

1:02:02

couldn't afford

1:02:04

the turkey. So

1:02:04

this is Baltimore, Maryland on

1:02:05

PrEP Street downtown. I

1:02:08

work in a factory getting

1:02:10

seven cents that doesn't cutting

1:02:13

of threats of of

1:02:15

of of boys' little

1:02:18

plants. So I

1:02:20

went to driver, so I remember.

1:02:22

And so I

1:02:23

looked at the at

1:02:25

the Turkish and piece,

1:02:28

you name

1:02:28

it. And finally, I

1:02:31

find a little chicken.

1:02:33

A little little

1:02:36

chicken. the

1:02:36

little less chicken in that store. So I go

1:02:39

to the boss and I

1:02:41

give

1:02:41

him my hand. and

1:02:44

takes

1:02:44

twenty five cents and

1:02:46

four pennies and gave me

1:02:48

the little chicken. So in

1:02:50

the vase which I have to

1:02:54

three times change. By

1:02:56

the time I got home, I

1:02:58

headed all done, I had my

1:03:00

choreography, I did my

1:03:02

high kick, I said,

1:03:04

guess what? We're gonna have

1:03:06

a baby turkey.

1:03:08

though So

1:03:10

she opened the fresh

1:03:12

turkey. and and I remember

1:03:14

my first Thanksgiving in

1:03:17

nineteen

1:03:17

forty forty man nine.

1:03:20

and

1:03:20

life has changed

1:03:21

now, and I'm talking to

1:03:24

you at ninety five,

1:03:26

and I hope you live to

1:03:28

be

1:03:28

a hundred my

1:03:30

sister died a week or so ago,

1:03:33

and

1:03:33

she was one hundred, but

1:03:36

she told

1:03:36

you that she's ninety nine.

1:03:39

I don't know why one one year makes

1:03:41

a difference. But

1:03:44

that's

1:03:45

a Hungarian

1:03:47

moment for you.

1:03:48

Well, I I got to know a man here in Austin. His name was

1:03:50

Richard Overton. He died about three

1:03:52

years ago at a hundred and twelve.

1:03:56

and sometimes I would I would sit on his front porch

1:03:58

and we would talk. So I I hope

1:04:00

that you're with us until a

1:04:02

hundred and twelve, still

1:04:04

passing on on lessons.

1:04:06

I I asked him once I said, what's

1:04:08

the secret to to living to to be a

1:04:10

hundred? I said, Drs or a hundred and twelve.

1:04:12

And he said, I said,

1:04:14

do you take it day by day? And he said,

1:04:16

after a hundred, it's more like day

1:04:19

by night. Sweet.

1:04:23

Yes. He was a he was a wonderful

1:04:25

man. But but it's truly been an honor to talk

1:04:27

to you not just once but twice, and I

1:04:29

so appreciate your books and and

1:04:31

your wisdom and And the advice you you gave me earlier was

1:04:33

wonderful. You said, I'll repeat it just to make sure I have it

1:04:35

right. If I knew if I knew then what

1:04:38

I knew now, I would do

1:04:40

it differently. and that's the end of

1:04:42

the discussion. That's

1:04:44

it. You got

1:04:45

it. Thank you. Thank

1:04:47

you.

1:04:48

Thank you. Hey, it's

1:04:52

Ryan. Thank

1:04:54

you for listening to the Daily Stewart

1:04:58

podcast just wanted to say, we so appreciate it.

1:05:00

We love serving you. It's amazing to us

1:05:02

that over thirty million people have

1:05:04

downloaded these episodes in a couple years we've

1:05:06

been doing it. It's an

1:05:08

honor. Please spread the word, tell

1:05:10

people about it, and this isn't to sell

1:05:12

anything I just wanted to say.

1:05:14

Thank you.