0:00

Hello the Internet, and welcome to season

0:02

to sixty six, episode four of

0:04

Jar Dailish Guys production

0:08

of I Heart Radio. Just four hundred shy

0:10

of the season that we've all been

0:12

waiting for, Season six hundred sixty

0:15

six. We're so close. Yeah, because

0:18

because I'm cool and stuff fucking

0:20

twisted. This is a podcast where

0:22

you take a deep dive into America's shared

0:25

consciousness. And it's Thursday,

0:27

December eight two?

0:30

Is it? Know that? What? What? What? Would

0:32

this be the seventeenth day of Christmas? So

0:34

we don't do that. I was like, where

0:37

are you going with that? Sort of

0:39

birds do they give you on the seventeenth

0:41

day of Christmas?

0:44

Seventeen pigeons flocking? Seventeen

0:47

dead pigeons.

0:50

My name is Jack O'Brien. Ak,

0:53

Mama, take this glass

0:56

from me. I can't chug

0:58

it any mam My

1:01

milky throats too thick to

1:03

speak. I feel like I'm

1:06

knogging on Heaven's door,

1:09

knog knog, knocking on Heaven's

1:11

door. Yeah, I know you wanted to come me off

1:13

before. Yeah, yeah,

1:16

not knock knocking on heavens

1:19

No? Wow, all

1:21

right. That is courtesy of Blake Rogers,

1:24

and I'm thrilled to be joined as always

1:26

when Miles is out by

1:28

a very special guest co host, one

1:31

of the EPs on this very network, the King

1:33

of sting that bitch on Twitch, it's

1:36

DJ Daniel good Man. Get

1:38

your lighters up for that. A k A. Well

1:41

done, Jack, You totally crushed that one

1:43

flat coming out of the gates. But I

1:46

think you sounded great. It is your boy, d J Daniel.

1:48

Happy to be here a k A. I forgot

1:50

to ask someone on Twitter, but I'll stick with Mr Steel your

1:52

aerial Yes, check me out on Twitch playing Rocket

1:54

League and being bad at it. Anyway. Happy

1:56

to be here to be arial, Yeah,

1:59

because when you fly in the air and the ball it's

2:01

I don't know, it's a real niche joke. For the people who

2:03

play the game, they're like, oh, I get that, And for ninety

2:06

per seven listening audience, they're like, are you talking

2:08

about that? You're headed for steal your ariola.

2:15

That's a different podcast. Yes. Anyways,

2:17

we are thrilled to be joined in our third and fourth

2:20

seats by the hosts of the podcast

2:22

A Matter of Degrees, which tell stories about

2:24

the powerful forces behind climate change

2:26

and the tools we have to fix it. Please

2:28

welcome the brilliant and accomplish Dr

2:31

Leah Stokes and Dr Catherine Wilkinson.

2:37

Hey, I

2:39

think to make the intros extra dumb when we have

2:42

like esteemed guests, so that

2:45

you guys just know what you're in for. We're

2:47

not we're not real doctors. Just to be clear.

2:49

I mean we have doctor it's but we can't not

2:51

perform surgery or anything like that. Just want

2:53

to get out, not even like stitches barely

2:56

a band aid. Yes, oh doctors.

2:58

Nonetheless, that is that accounts

3:00

in my book. And yeah,

3:03

if I even got close to a doctorate, I would make

3:05

make people call me doctor, including

3:08

my kids and a wife.

3:11

So who

3:14

was a doctor? Who is a doctor,

3:16

but really like an actual doctor.

3:19

Yeah, she's a she's an actual doctor. That

3:21

might annoy her a lot. I

3:24

think you should stay undoctorated or

3:28

I'm annoyed by the fact that she's a doctor. And

3:30

when we say hey, how's your day,

3:32

she has like life changing

3:35

stories of how she, you

3:37

know, helped people, And I'm like,

3:39

I almost introduced Miles

3:41

and Daniel was the guest host. That's

3:44

a mess, babe.

3:48

How are you guys doing? Where are you coming to us? From

3:51

Well, I'm in sunny Santa Barbara, California,

3:53

the best place to live in America. I

3:56

love it here. It's always beautiful here. That's

3:58

wonderful. Shout and I am

4:01

I'm joining from Atlanta, Georgia, which

4:04

I mean, hallifucking luiyah. It is

4:06

a good day. And yes,

4:12

hold it out of our teeth, I'm assuming,

4:14

thank you for your service. Votage.

4:17

Yes, the right side on that one, oh,

4:19

the left side, the left

4:23

side being the right side. Yes,

4:26

well that's good. That's that's big

4:28

news that I think we're all happy. Two

4:31

days later, I guess, but yes, good

4:33

day because with this drops

4:35

tomorrow, but yeah, yeah, good good,

4:38

it'll still be a good day, a

4:41

good day in Georgia, Blue

4:43

Georgia. Six years.

4:45

You know, it's a lot like if we'd had

4:47

to have hershel Walker for six years.

4:51

I don't think he would have lasted, like I don't

4:53

know, I don't know. I think he probably would quit.

4:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that is. The werewolves would have

4:58

gotten him, so you know, yeah,

5:00

the werewolves. That's actual werewolf

5:03

attack. Been impressive.

5:05

Anyways, Uh, we're gonna get

5:07

to know you both a little bit better in a moment. First,

5:09

We're gonna tell our listeners a couple of things we're talking about

5:11

today. I want to talk to you both

5:14

about climate change as

5:16

a mass mental health event

5:19

that gets ignored by the mainstream media.

5:22

We might talk a little bit about effective altruism

5:24

that movement and just what we're

5:26

learning about the truth around that movement.

5:29

And I'd be again curious to hear y'all

5:32

thoughts on on that one. We are

5:34

going to talk about t g I Friday's

5:37

mott Sticks got no motts. We

5:40

might actually just skip right to that and talk about

5:42

only that that seems really important

5:44

on the climate issues. I mean that I put

5:47

right at the top. Yeah,

5:49

I heard your motstick episode. It was it

5:52

was pretty good. It was you

5:54

got to some really interesting places. All

5:56

of that plenty more. But before

5:58

we get to any of that, we do like to ask our

6:01

guests, what is something from

6:03

your search histories that is

6:05

revealing about who you are? Catherine,

6:08

you want to start us off? Sure?

6:11

I looked, and I was like, what's sort of

6:13

weird and illuminating here? Horse

6:17

head bumpers head bumper?

6:19

Yeah was one. So I'm a

6:22

horse. I'm a horse, mom, And um,

6:24

that's how you like to Greek with a little head bump

6:26

a little it's like a little thing

6:29

that they wear on their head if they have to travel,

6:32

so that if they freak out, which he does

6:34

and fling their head in the air, they don't

6:36

also split their skull

6:39

open. So it's like a little it's

6:41

like a really dorky kind of like thick

6:43

leather pope cap,

6:47

which pope cap, because pope hats

6:49

can get pretty wild. I'm

6:51

thinking like, well, you know the curvy one,

6:55

yeah, yeah, yeah, that is good. There

6:58

might be some really interesting actions to take

7:00

horse bumpers in the whole

7:03

pope hat. Yeah.

7:07

I feel like I haven't seen the big good

7:10

pope hat in a while. The one that's just

7:12

not really like any other

7:14

hat that has ever been worn by anyone

7:17

else. Is just the size

7:19

of a of a large basket,

7:22

like a clothing hamper

7:25

on top of someone's head. I don't know why that's

7:27

what I want with holding in all that hair, but

7:31

for some reason, this is making me wonder how

7:33

the Pope feels about White Lotus and

7:36

if he's been watching this series,

7:39

maybe if phillippear in the finale. These

7:42

are all questions that are now coming up for Yeah,

7:46

there's a lot of religious art in

7:48

there, so who knows. How

7:50

about you, Leah, what what's something from

7:52

your search history that's revealing about who

7:55

you are? Well? One of the most

7:57

recent things I searched was Mistress

7:59

America Tree Trailer, which is a movie

8:01

directed by Gretti Greerwig. I was reading a long

8:04

profile about her, and the secret to my productivity

8:06

is that I don't really watch movies. I watch movie

8:09

trailers, and so on any given

8:11

day I was searching a trailer. I

8:13

mean, most movie trailers give you the entire

8:15

story in like two and a half minutes and then

8:18

you're done. You don't really have to watch the movies,

8:20

and they're so emotional, they'll

8:22

pack all those emotions in there. Why

8:24

don't we have like Best Trailer Awards

8:27

at the Oscars. I've asked this

8:29

question many times. A brilliant

8:31

observations, desperately needed,

8:33

and not enough credit given to those trailer cutters,

8:36

right, exactly, They're the unsung

8:38

heroes of our time. Really, thank

8:40

you? Are they the same people

8:42

who do like the emotional sports

8:45

video stories like for the Olympics,

8:47

you know, those little like they take

8:49

you on that same emotional roller coaster in

8:51

two and a half minutes before the next like hundred

8:54

meter whatever. Yeah, just

8:56

make you weep. I'm such a baby

8:58

for those. They make me cry every single

9:00

time. I love an emotional Olympic story,

9:04

micro emotional roller coaster. That's

9:06

like a professional skill set.

9:09

H I just looked at the run time

9:11

for Avatar to the Way of the

9:13

Water and it is like,

9:16

not, it is not a number that I've ever seen

9:19

as a run time before. You do

9:21

have a three hours in the front of it. Well

9:23

yeah, but they didn't do it. It was like a hundred and nineties

9:26

something minutes. Wow, so three

9:28

hours ten. They

9:31

don't let you to know the like maybe

9:33

you can't do the math. Can't

9:35

do math, They'll just go to the movie.

9:38

But I'm excited to see that, but less

9:40

a little less excited. I might just watch

9:43

the trailer and know right just I

9:45

mean, you're gonna you're gonna find out the whole plot

9:47

who dies with the romances and we just

9:49

need you get How

9:52

was the Gretor Girarwig trailer? It was

9:54

great? I mean, I love Greti Garwig. I should probably

9:56

actually watch the movie, like that is something that

9:58

I should maybe give time do. But you know what I

10:00

did give time to is the extremely long profile

10:03

about her. So I have time to read. I just don't

10:05

always have time to watch to

10:07

our movies. I mean, God, bless

10:09

you're far more enriched for it for given time

10:11

to reading more than watching, Like, props to you

10:13

on that one. I'm

10:16

like the last person in America still reads

10:18

it up here. So this

10:22

is not the Barbie movie that we've

10:25

been cooking. No, but it was about the Barbie

10:27

movie. And did you see those skills? They were

10:29

amazing? Oh my god, I

10:31

mean the skills have been incredible. But

10:34

Gregi Gerdwick has another more serious

10:36

film dropping before that. No,

10:38

No, it's actually old. I mean, why would you think I'm

10:40

up up to speed on culture, hair and America?

10:45

Is it's old? Yeah? Just I'm

10:48

not watching current trailers.

10:50

Okay, I'm not that him cutting

10:54

edge watching current trailers, watching

10:57

trailers from seven years ago. That is what I

10:59

do with my time yet. Okay, Leah,

11:01

what is something you think is overrated? Okay,

11:04

you ready for it? Gas stoves?

11:08

Why did I go there? Okay?

11:10

Well, you know cooking with gas? Right, everybody

11:12

thinks they're so great. Actually they poison you

11:14

and blow up your house and

11:17

put carcinogens into the air, and

11:19

they're terrible. So every time

11:21

I watch a home renovation show and they put

11:23

a new Gaes stove in, I'm like, a fairy just died.

11:25

That is the worst thing I've ever seen. Gas

11:28

stoves are terrible for you and

11:30

the planet. What is the fairy

11:32

just died? Right? Why did the fairy die?

11:34

Because fairies die when you put in guest stoves. I don't

11:36

know if you knew that. That's like a new scientific paper

11:39

that just came out. It's that tick tick

11:41

tick that's right here. When you're trying

11:43

to get the stove going and it tick tick tick,

11:45

that's a fairy. That's a dead fair that

11:48

just keeps keeps going exactly,

11:50

or the one burner that doesn't light, and then you're smelling

11:52

that smell of gas and that's like

11:55

that that's not good for your health. You're

11:57

right, I didn't know all that stuff about it being

11:59

bad and that it was going to blow up

12:01

my house. Yeah, dude, I mean I

12:03

think get your kids asthma. Yeah,

12:07

yeah, forty more likely to have

12:09

asthma if you grow up in a house with a gas stove I'm

12:11

currently running in my house to get rid of my

12:13

guest stove amongst all other gas appliances.

12:16

And so we're in an airbnb right now. There's a super

12:19

sketchy gas stove here, and there's

12:21

one of those like events really high in the

12:23

ceiling that definitely doesn't do anything, And every

12:25

time I turn it on, I'm like, wow, I'm just like poisoning

12:27

my children. This is awesome. Love this, love

12:29

this. How

12:32

about you, Katherine, what's something that you think

12:34

is overrated? So I'll stick

12:37

on the you know, planetary nerd

12:39

fame. Recycling I think

12:42

is overrated. Like

12:44

I am a recycler, hardcore for

12:46

forever, but it

12:49

struck me a new Last weekend. I was in a

12:51

like non climate people conversation.

12:54

I was like, people think that recycling

12:56

is like of the problem.

12:59

We're the opportunity. Like I'm like,

13:03

list like, like, let's recycle,

13:05

but I'm like, how we're like really

13:07

missing the forest for the one recycled

13:09

tree here. Like the

13:12

only thing that they gave us for a long

13:14

time, right, it was the only information

13:16

they gave us was like the planet's dying,

13:19

uh, and here's something

13:21

you can do that's marginally better than the other

13:23

thing, and we were like, all right on it, thank

13:25

you, We know our assignment

13:28

well. And the

13:30

fossil fuel industry was like, we're

13:32

going to hype this whole recycling thing

13:35

as the solution to the plastic problem

13:39

and then we'll get people not to

13:41

pay attention to all the rest of what's happening.

13:43

And so also there was like a lot of money

13:46

that went into making recycling the

13:49

thing, even though like we recycled

13:51

like five to six of plastic,

13:55

so it's not the solution to the thing. Anyway.

13:58

My point is, I'm like, we got to

14:00

get out of like this myopia

14:02

of recycling as the

14:05

as the barometer how often you hear

14:07

myopia on this show. I mean brought

14:09

it not enough. But

14:12

we have some doctors so that

14:14

yeah, we're doing some g R E

14:16

words today, SAT words words,

14:19

they're in the house. The level has definitely been raised.

14:22

I think the thing on recycling that

14:24

I think is is so thank you for bringing that up.

14:26

Because what was so funny about like the recycling

14:28

trend of like the nineties and stuff like that was it

14:31

was a three word phrase reduce,

14:34

reuse, recycle. There

14:36

was a whole phrase to it. That really

14:38

just got shortened to, oh, just throw your bottles

14:40

in the blue bin and then you're all good. It's safe.

14:42

Like what happened to the reduce your

14:45

usage first and foremost reuse.

14:47

Take those plastic bags and those bottles,

14:50

Maybe reuse that again. Maybe you use that thing

14:52

another time before you just decided to toss it out

14:55

and then recycle as the final stage of

14:57

the development here, the final stage of the process

14:59

here it is. It is just a

15:01

shortening to like, oh, let's get to the

15:03

part where you're still just throwing it out. So I

15:06

feel, you know, stay fully

15:08

on the like wild one use

15:11

consumption brand wagon,

15:13

Yeah find the blue ben who

15:15

knows? Yeah, forget

15:18

that. But I will say one thing recycling

15:20

aluminium before you go get cynical. That

15:22

is underrated. Aluminium is like the most

15:25

recyclable material. If you throw

15:27

you can go forever coke can in the garbage

15:30

in front of me, I will stick my hand in the garbage

15:32

and save it because the stakes are too high.

15:34

I need to save the cand So you need to recycle

15:36

aluminum cans very important. Do

15:38

it. And if you're going to get a

15:40

drink and a container, get it an aluminum

15:43

because it's super valuable and it can

15:45

recycle indefinitely, so like

15:48

you don't have to worry about it. Sparkle

15:50

your water and your aluminum cans. This makes

15:52

me feel so much better about my Yerba mate

15:55

consumption because those are aluminum cans

15:57

and they're all about sustainability. So like

16:00

the product and drink

16:05

them. What's the aluminum water?

16:08

The aluminium kid liquid

16:11

death, liquid death?

16:15

Also big French is not actually

16:17

printed all Americans, but it sounds

16:19

French. Yeah, except for not if

16:21

you call it Lacroix, which feel

16:24

the major interpretation. Okay,

16:26

some of ust speak French in this conversation.

16:29

Yea, what is

16:31

something that you think is

16:33

underrated? Catherine Man,

16:37

I think Tempe

16:40

great, it's underrated, and I'll tell

16:42

you what that one. I'll

16:45

tell you why. I'll tell you why. So I've

16:47

been vegetarian for a

16:50

long time more coming

16:52

up on twenty five years, and

16:54

thank you for your service. Tempe is like

16:56

a better experience than Tofu.

16:59

But it's not. You see Tofu

17:01

so much more often, but Tempe

17:03

is like it's better for you, the textures

17:05

better, it's easier to cook with and

17:09

I don't know, you know, we've got all these like new fangled

17:11

fake meats, which like I am happy

17:13

on occasion to have an impossible burger or whatever.

17:16

But like Tempe, it's like actually

17:18

a really good citizen. And I had something

17:20

at a restaurant with it recently and I was like, this is underrated.

17:23

That should be on more menus. So that's

17:25

my plug. That's my plug for the humbles

17:28

fermented soybean cake

17:30

that is tem It's like a little chewier,

17:33

is that. Yeah, it's a little like

17:35

it's only familiar with the city in Arizona.

17:38

It's a little oh yeah, different Tempe. But

17:41

but maybe it's every Maybe, like maybe

17:43

we could study that and see likes

17:46

the food Tempe everywhere and Tempe, I don't

17:48

know, probably not. How do they do it?

17:52

Traditional Indonesian food made

17:55

from fermented soybeans I'm

17:57

here for. I think you get those like probiotic

18:00

good things anyway. Yeah, but

18:03

how about Julia, what is something you think is underrated?

18:06

I think I'm continuing along with this crunchy

18:08

granola climate trend

18:11

here, which is for those who know

18:13

me or listen to anything I've ever created,

18:15

they will not be surprised by this answer. Probably Catherine

18:17

could guess it. The underrated

18:19

thing is a heat pump. What

18:22

is a heat pump, you ask? It is

18:24

an efficient electric machine that can both heat

18:26

and cool your home one stop shopping.

18:29

And it doesn't require any fossil fuels. It

18:31

does not require gas. And so you

18:33

know that whole thing about poisoning yourself. You don't

18:36

have to poison yourself. You can have

18:38

a heat pump and uh, you know,

18:40

both heat and cool your home. These are amazing machines.

18:42

They should be as well known as electric

18:44

vehicles, but they're not. Heat pumps

18:47

are definitely underrated. Cool

18:49

what so I just have, like have my

18:51

kids out there just pumping away at it. What

18:55

am I? Oh my god? I guess what? It uses electricity.

18:57

There's this thing I don't know. It's called

19:00

electricity. It like does stuff

19:02

you know, charges your phone, uh,

19:04

you know, allows you to listen to this podcast, but also

19:07

can heat and cool your home. I don't know if that

19:09

I did not know that? All

19:11

right, the heat pump, and it's it's

19:14

not like I'll just I'll say

19:16

they sound like magic. So

19:19

in the summer, they take

19:21

the heat that's in your home and they

19:24

stick it outside. They're like it's too hot

19:26

in here. I'm getting rid of too hot in here. Get it out.

19:28

And in the winter they managed to

19:30

grab the heat that is outside and

19:32

send it into your home. There's

19:35

magical little heat outside that you didn't know about.

19:38

And the fairies. There are fairies inside the heat

19:40

pump. See, you've killed the fairies when you buy the guests

19:42

do and then you you know, they come back to life

19:44

if the

19:47

fairies bring They find the heat outside

19:49

and the fairies bring that into the

19:51

house. That's how heat pump works. That's science right

19:53

there. We're talking on the Halloween

19:56

episode. How Like in Google's

19:58

top ranking of costumes,

20:01

like all of the top costumes are

20:04

things that have major motion

20:06

pictures that have been made about

20:08

them or are part of a major motion

20:11

pictures, But one of the top three

20:13

year after year is fairies. And

20:15

like I feel like they haven't really

20:17

gotten there do. Like a lot

20:20

of the ones that are you know that little

20:22

girl costumes haven't

20:24

gotten their do. But a

20:27

big fairy franchise in the field. Because

20:30

I don't know if you knew this. One of the groups I work with, Rewaring

20:32

America, which is all about the heat pump. We actually

20:34

made heat pump Halloween costumes this year.

20:36

So you there were many people, I

20:39

mean not like enough to get

20:41

there are probably like nine many

20:43

many people people across America

20:46

became heat pumps for Halloween.

20:48

I don't know if you knew that. It was a whole trend. I don't know why

20:50

you missed it. It was huge. Actually I could

20:53

send you photos. Oh yeah,

20:55

look, this is this is when climate

20:57

Twitter gets like really all a fluttering

21:00

when people dress up as heat pumps. I mean, it's

21:03

just getting real, you know. It's just like the excitement

21:05

through the roof. Yeah. Yeah, that

21:07

explains all the kids and giants squares that were coming

21:09

up to my door from you, and

21:12

I just couldn't understand they were talking through this giant

21:14

square. It sounds like you want a

21:16

heat bar. Heat.

21:19

Yes, that was the trend. I don't know why

21:21

you missed it. It It was really big on TikTok all

21:23

the kids. It totally hot

21:25

right now and cool as well. Y. I

21:31

feel leah that the Heat Pump movie

21:33

should never be made, but it does need a trailer.

21:36

Yes, exactly, we need a Heat Pump

21:38

movie trailer exactly with that dramatic

21:40

music. Yeah, alright,

21:43

let's take a quick break and we'll come

21:45

back and talk about climate and

21:58

we're back and yeah,

22:01

so you guys had a great episode of

22:03

your podcast where you talked about like

22:06

the trauma of climate change,

22:09

and you also you also

22:12

mentioned something that we talk about

22:14

about a lot on this show,

22:17

which is just the way that the mainstream

22:19

media. Like there there's an overall

22:22

sense that you're being gas

22:24

lit by the world of like serious

22:26

people making decisions

22:29

who say things about climate

22:31

change being a priority and like say

22:33

the right things, but then they don't do any

22:36

of the things that suggests they

22:38

actually believe that climate is

22:40

a priority or that like this

22:43

you know, existential catastrophic

22:46

threat that is facing us is real,

22:49

And I don't know, just like as

22:51

it's kind of come more and more into

22:54

focus, it's like,

22:57

I I'm thinking back on these

22:59

New York Times wories I've seen where they're like,

23:02

you know, the young people are having

23:04

a mental health crisis

23:06

and nobody knows why. I think it's

23:08

social media and like don't

23:11

mention climate change once. So

23:13

yeah, just be interested in kind of hearing

23:16

what your perspective is on on

23:18

that and specifically as it relates to not just

23:20

like climate activists but just like people

23:22

who see this happening in the headlines

23:25

and you know, are

23:27

just dealing with the

23:29

dissonance of like, oh so this is

23:31

going to really is

23:35

already harming and killing people

23:37

and is going to make the world way worse. And

23:39

then we just talk about the

23:41

stock market like it's, you

23:43

know, the most important thing instead

23:46

of a report about

23:48

like how well people are making

23:50

money off of causing the problem

23:53

that we're supposed to be worried about. But

23:55

yeah, like what just uh that's a

23:57

big word salad, but what what

24:00

what are your thoughts on just like this,

24:03

the mental toll that this takes.

24:05

I remember it was a couple of months ago maybe

24:08

that the New York Times put out a little like many

24:10

documentary kind of video about

24:12

young people and mental health crisis

24:15

and suicide. And I was like, when are they going to say

24:17

surely they're going to come to it next. Are they going to say something?

24:19

No, even one of the interviewees says

24:22

something to the tune of like,

24:24

you know, there's not going to be a planet to live

24:26

on, and like they never tease that

24:28

out as a major driver. Yeah,

24:31

Like and I was just kind of like, what, like

24:34

what, especially because there

24:37

has been some really important

24:39

research that's come out in the last couple

24:41

of years actually documenting

24:44

this trend among young people. So one

24:46

of the folks that we had on that episode, Dr

24:48

Britt Ray at Stanford, She

24:51

was one of the authors on a study

24:53

that came out in the Lancet last year. They

24:56

surveyed ten thousand young people across

24:58

ten countries. And the

25:02

thing that came through in that study so profoundly

25:04

is the way that the

25:06

burden of this crisis is already

25:09

impacting the day to day lives

25:11

of most young people, and particularly

25:13

young people in the global selth But

25:16

not just that, it's the double whammy

25:18

of feeling betrayed,

25:21

right that exactly what you're saying,

25:23

That sense of being gas lit and totally

25:25

let down by

25:28

the people that are like wearing the moniker

25:30

of leadership and absolutely

25:33

not doing their job when it comes to making

25:35

sure, I don't know, we get to keep living

25:37

on this extraordinary planet that grows

25:40

food and like flows water

25:42

and does all of these amazing things that make

25:44

it incredible to live here. And

25:48

yeah, cop who had the most

25:50

delegates at that at that little shindig,

25:52

the global Conference of

25:54

the Parties, the annual sort

25:57

of rendezvous to talk about our

25:59

collective future the fucking fossil

26:01

fuel industry at the most delegates

26:04

except the United Arab Emirates, which

26:06

is basically also part of the fossil

26:08

fuel industry. And it's like this whole thing

26:11

is insane and the fact

26:13

that young people are feeling that

26:15

and seeing it, and then they don't have anywhere

26:17

to take that, right, like there are no containers

26:22

to be to be heard and seen

26:25

and you know, unless they find

26:27

themselves in like a great chapter

26:29

of the Sunrise Movement or something, and even then,

26:31

like holding

26:34

the existential dread that

26:36

like any logical being is feeling

26:39

in this moment, you know, it's

26:42

it's bananas. And not to mention parents,

26:44

you know, who are also grappling

26:46

with like my child is learning

26:48

about this in school and how do I how

26:51

do I even have a conversation with them?

26:54

Yeah, your options are basically to discredit

26:57

science or acknowledge

27:00

that the world is broken, you know,

27:03

like, well, at least we recycle, right,

27:05

Yeah, But it's

27:08

and even that is you know, inherently

27:11

like at its core dishonest to be like what we're

27:13

good because of your cycle, Like the I

27:15

don't really. Yeah, yeah, but you know,

27:18

one thing about our show is that a matter of degrees

27:20

is that we don't we don't. We don't trade

27:22

in hopelessness. We're not down for that. So you

27:25

know, we actually also

27:27

did this mini series about what Can

27:29

I Do? And it's a three part series this season

27:32

that talks about what can I do about climate change?

27:34

And unsurprisingly it talks about getting a heat

27:36

pump, you know, moving your money so

27:38

that it's not investing in the fossil fuel industry,

27:40

thinking about how your job can contribute

27:42

to it. I mean, like right now, you guys are climate activists.

27:45

I don't know if you knew that, Like your jobs are on the

27:47

team. Welcome you had us

27:49

on your show, and now we're talking about climate change.

27:51

Bata boom, bat a bang. That's it right there,

27:53

you know. And also political activism,

27:56

right, how do we make sure we elect climate champions?

27:58

And we have folks on for this nonprofit

28:01

called Climate Cabinet that helps elect

28:03

climate champions like all up and down the

28:05

ballot. So you know, it's not about hopelessness.

28:08

It's actually about you know, recognizing

28:10

that we are in a bad place, but that there are things

28:13

that we as people can do about it. And

28:15

the biggest things we can do is actually joined

28:17

together with other people to take political action

28:20

to help change laws to make a difference in

28:22

our communities. But even short of that,

28:24

you know, getting a heat pump, getting an induction

28:26

stove, getting an electric vehicle, getting

28:28

an e bike right there, allowing vote

28:33

and love that, that's a great one. You

28:35

know, there's lots of things we can do. So it's

28:38

not about hopelessness. But it's

28:40

also not about being unrealistic

28:42

about the situation that we're in and you know,

28:44

being real with people about how bad this

28:46

is. There's no Pollyanna Pollyanna

28:49

bullshit happening like

28:51

we were, like, we've got to look at the

28:53

hard reality of where we are and what's

28:55

headed our way. Even if we

28:57

even if we do every

29:00

thing that we can as fast as we

29:02

can, we're still going to have some

29:04

really intense challenges coming.

29:07

And to realize we have this absolutely

29:09

stocked toolbox of solutions

29:12

that are not just like someday

29:15

maybe if the effect of altruists

29:17

funded, Like no, it's like stuff

29:20

we have now and it's working

29:22

and it makes us healthier and it saves us money.

29:25

And also even on the climate and mental

29:27

health stuff. There are actually

29:30

solutions, like we don't just have to curl

29:32

up in the fetal position alone and

29:34

despair. Like that episode

29:36

is about how to cope with all the climate

29:39

fields because we're going to keep feeling them, and

29:41

a lot of that is also about coming together

29:44

in community for conversation

29:46

and feeling like we're not alone. Yeah,

29:48

there's a really cool thing on task shifting that I

29:50

want to talk about, But just just like going

29:53

back to the sort of

29:55

mainstream media sort

29:57

of blind spot, because I just I don't

30:00

think that that is something that most

30:03

people think that when they turn on NPR

30:05

or like read the New York Times,

30:08

that they're getting a version of

30:10

things that are like

30:13

partaking in this and

30:15

and I do feel

30:17

like that like that that is a big

30:19

part of the problem is you know, like

30:21

like you said, you have this thing, and that

30:24

it feels like there's not an intuitive

30:26

place to go with it, and it feels like

30:28

you're reading these contradictory

30:31

things in you know what

30:33

what is supposed to be the mainstream media,

30:36

and it just I don't know,

30:38

like just an honesty and owning

30:40

it and like a naming it of like

30:43

that there is this enormous

30:45

trauma that we should all

30:48

be acknowledging and working through

30:50

together while while we're trying to do

30:52

things about it individually. But I

30:54

don't really. I mean that that's a big

30:57

part of finding a solution

31:00

that makes it so that the

31:02

fossil fuel companies don't

31:04

get to continue to completely

31:06

define you know that they're fighting

31:08

things on that level, like by

31:11

you know, giving the New York Times the shipload

31:13

of money and stuff too, one

31:15

of the biggest advertisers at the New York Times. I

31:17

mean, here's the reality. Fossil fuel companies

31:20

knew about climate change decades

31:22

ago before they had scientists, yeah,

31:24

way before everyday people they did.

31:26

They had scientists like an Exxon for example,

31:28

x on Mobile. They had a different name at the

31:31

time, but they had scientists who were doing

31:33

research and they were, you

31:35

know, realizing that when

31:37

you burn fossil fuels and you put

31:39

carbon pollution and other greenhouse

31:41

gases into the atmosphere, you warm the

31:43

planet. When you warm the planet, a lot

31:45

of bad things happen, like drought

31:48

and you know, more intense hurricanes

31:50

and really extreme rainfall and heat

31:53

waves that kill people, and you know,

31:55

the crazy flooding, for example, that's happening in

31:57

Pakistan right now. The insane hurricane

31:59

Ian probably going to be the most expensive

32:02

hurricane in Florida history. You know, all

32:04

these things that are happening their linked

32:06

to climate change. And fossil fuel companies

32:08

knew about that. And what did

32:10

they do. They lied? They intentionally

32:13

lied to the American people. It's very similar to cigarette

32:15

companies. You know, cigarette companies had their own scientists.

32:18

They knew that cigarettes caused cancer, but

32:20

they lied. And the interesting thing about

32:22

the cigarette companies is that they were eventually held

32:24

accountable by the US justice system,

32:27

right they had to pay big fines for what they did.

32:29

And that is what we need to see for fossil fuel

32:31

companies too. We need to see these companies

32:34

be held accountable for the decisions that they

32:36

made to lie to the American people and

32:38

you know, make it so that you didn't have other choices

32:41

other than fossil fuels for decades. The good

32:43

thing is we're in a moment now where there are other

32:46

choices. You can get an electric vehicle, you

32:48

don't have to use fossil fuels in your homes anymore.

32:51

But you know, fossil fuel companies really delayed

32:53

that and they lied to the American people for decades,

32:55

So they really need to be held accountable. Yeah,

32:58

yeah, for sure. And probably

33:01

I don't know, I mean maybe they should have

33:04

to sit in rooms with

33:06

despairing young people and

33:09

like like absorb

33:11

that trauma that they have they've

33:13

manufactured, right, both like physically

33:16

and in in this sense of gas

33:18

lighting that that you're talking about, Jack, and

33:21

I think the like that

33:23

there is this huge lie at the core of like

33:26

just existence in the modern world

33:29

like that that also goes

33:31

to everything that's happening, like this like rise

33:34

of fascism, like nihilism among

33:36

the rich, depression among the young, as we talked

33:38

about, like a rise of deaths of despair,

33:41

all these things that you

33:43

know are caused by people just

33:46

losing hope and faith

33:48

and like belief in in that

33:51

that they exist in like a just world

33:53

that's like worth fighting for. And it's

33:56

just like getting that back

33:58

into the conversation feels like an

34:01

important part part of

34:03

the of the job. And it's that

34:05

like it's that flip side, I think to the

34:07

headlines you know that you were

34:09

talking about, right of like we

34:12

need the headlines that make it clear

34:14

that we're in a fucking mess um

34:16

and we're running out of time, and

34:19

we need the headlines or

34:21

better yet, the feature films

34:24

and the like compelling collective

34:26

stories that help us imagine

34:30

a transformed world. Right, Like,

34:34

so much of the climate conversation

34:36

kind of publicly has been like, this

34:38

is the world we want to avoid, and

34:41

it's going to take a whole bunch of misery and sacrifice

34:44

to get there, instead of like, this is the incredible

34:46

future that's possible, and

34:49

this is what it could mean to go

34:51

on that journey to get there. I would

34:53

watch that movie. Leah would probably watch more than the

34:55

trailer. Yeah, yeah,

34:58

And it's about abundance. You know. So much of what's

35:00

been sold to us is that climate action is

35:02

is sacrifice and no offense to the whole Tempe

35:05

conversation earlier. Right, But like you

35:07

know, it's not about it's

35:09

not really doing any papers there. It's

35:11

not about giving up your hamburgers

35:14

or sitting in the cold dark room alone

35:16

and not having a car. Right. Guess what, guys,

35:18

You can have a heat pump that he eats your home. You

35:21

can have an electric vehicle. You can

35:23

probably even eat some meat or some fake meat

35:25

that's going to exist that you know, tastes

35:27

exactly the same, but didn't require as much carbon

35:29

pollution. Right there is innovation happening

35:32

right now that allows us to live

35:34

the way that we live, and we like living without

35:37

all the sacrifice and the way that the

35:39

fossil pole industry has defined this is about

35:41

sacrifice because that works for them. That would

35:43

they can say no, no, no, don't change anything. Just

35:46

keep using your dirty gas stove and

35:48

your dirty you know, oil powered

35:50

car. Just do that for like another couple of decades.

35:52

Because every single day

35:55

that we delay, you know, getting the

35:57

solar panels or the heat pumps or

35:59

the like vehicle. Every day we delay,

36:01

it makes fossil fuel companies money.

36:03

That's how they make money. Now, they're like delaying machines.

36:06

And so they don't want us to think that there

36:08

are alternatives so that we can keep living

36:10

our lives and actually have healthier

36:12

lives, pay less money for our energy

36:15

bills. You know, they don't want us to understand

36:17

the abundance that's coming for so if we act

36:19

on climate change, they want us to think it's all doom

36:22

and gloom, and you know, you're gonna have to

36:24

sit alone in the dark nature temp a you

36:26

know, that's what they want us to think. Um

36:28

and and Catherine's point out that a temp is not

36:30

so bad. Actually, I'd

36:33

say give it a try, Give it a try.

36:35

It does feel like there's a lot

36:38

of you guys are

36:40

doing a great job of like highlighting like very

36:43

sophisticated and smart, and like there's

36:45

just a lot of energy, especially coming

36:47

from this young generation towards like

36:49

building a future that is sustainable.

36:52

There's also a lot that

36:56

is happening on the other side, like you mentioned

36:58

the fossil fuel like Cop seven

37:02

becoming a fossil fuel trade show,

37:04

and you know, the like

37:07

effective altruism. I keep

37:09

ranting about this, but it's really like

37:11

it's fooled a lot of people, I

37:13

think, and even like a

37:16

very smart person who's like, you know, youngest

37:18

philosophy professor at Oxford like

37:21

full has fooled himself by

37:23

like he thinks he went from like

37:26

getting bed nets for people

37:28

in need and like stopping human suffering

37:31

in the here and now too,

37:34

he you know, started

37:36

hanging out with all these like venture capital

37:38

bros And like billionaires and suddenly

37:41

climate change isn't as important

37:43

as people say it is. And the

37:46

thing that we really need to worry about is you

37:49

know AI and you know

37:51

ship where like he just like through osmosis

37:54

is like an

37:57

asshole, but like it's it is very

38:00

sophisticated, and it is like, I

38:02

don't know, I think of like capitalism

38:04

almost as its own AI that

38:06

has like gone through the

38:08

singularity like decades ago,

38:10

and it's just like so sophisticated, and it's

38:13

like fighting like that that's

38:15

what we're fighting against. And they keep coming up

38:17

with these like ideas and arguments

38:19

and ways to fund

38:22

a form of civilization

38:25

that is clearly unsustainable. Like

38:27

that that I feel like is the thing that

38:30

you know, they talk about hyper normalization. Adam

38:32

Curtis talks about this feeling that

38:35

we're like just living

38:37

next to this massive like organism

38:40

that can't be understood or

38:42

slowed down or like affected,

38:45

and so it's like some you

38:48

know, it's fighting that. And I think

38:50

like the thing that gives me the most hope is that it does

38:52

seem like the younger generations

38:54

are more aware and

38:57

have a more realistic the

39:00

vision and like grasp of what the

39:02

actual contours of this reality.

39:05

But I also feel like the

39:08

capitalist machine is going to

39:11

do its best to create like very sophisticated

39:14

ways and ideas and quote

39:16

unquote philosophies to like bring them

39:19

into this bullshit

39:21

you know framework, but is currently

39:24

pasting on inertia. There's a really direct

39:26

threat here too. So you

39:28

know, this whole Sam Bankman freed, you

39:30

know, crypto crash that's going on, very

39:32

tied to effective altruism, right because

39:35

he justified his actions by saying, Look,

39:37

if I can make a lot of money, I can give

39:39

it away. I can give it away to democrats

39:41

running for office, I can give it away to poor people

39:44

or whatever. And that makes me a good person, even

39:46

though the fundamental thing I'm doing

39:48

is actually really bad. Why do I

39:50

say that crypto? We did an

39:53

episode recently on the podcast, on our

39:55

podcast Matter of Degrees about cryptocurrency, and

39:57

we dug into the climate impacts, and I gotta

39:59

say, like, WHOA, that was super

40:01

illuminating and dark. I don't

40:03

know how much people know about crypto, but basically,

40:06

especially with bitcoin, it's a giant

40:09

number guessing machine that requires enormous

40:12

amounts of energy,

40:14

and you know, just that cryptocurrency

40:16

alone, the negative environmental

40:18

impacts from using so much dirty

40:21

energy to just guess numbers. It's

40:23

actually bigger than the

40:25

positive effect right now of all

40:28

electric vehicles deployed in the year. So every

40:30

time you see an electric vehicle on the road, just

40:32

think about the invisible crypto number

40:34

guessing garbage that's going on in the background

40:37

that is negating that positive

40:39

momentum that we're making. And you

40:42

know, I think a lot of people sort of stuck

40:44

their head in the sand around crypto and the fundamental

40:47

fact that it uses so much energy

40:49

and is very bad for the planet. I mean literally

40:51

keeping coal plants open to guess numbers,

40:54

you know, when they start their head in the sand because they said, well,

40:56

it's effective altruism we're doing. We're

40:59

making money and then going to give that money away,

41:01

And isn't that better because as long as we make

41:03

money and give it to people than like, actually, we're

41:05

amazing people were better than those

41:07

crunchy granola kids trying to shut down

41:10

coal plants because actually, we made money

41:12

and we can give that away, And it becomes

41:14

very circular argument that doesn't

41:16

cause people to look at the

41:18

fundamental problem here, which is that you're using

41:21

enormous amounts of dirty energy to

41:23

do something that actually isn't that useful.

41:26

Yeah, and correct me if I'm wrong. On crypto, especially

41:29

with the whole number guessing thing, you get diminishing

41:31

returns over time because the numbers get

41:33

harder to guess as the value of it fluctuates

41:36

and whatnot, And so you're spending more and more

41:38

energy to guess a smaller and smaller

41:40

amount of like numbers to like mint

41:43

coins or something. So eventually the

41:45

cost of the energy both actual like

41:47

you know, monetary cost, but cost the environment,

41:50

then outweighs the actual value of

41:52

the coin that's being minted. Yeah. I

41:54

mean that's because it gets more competitive

41:56

to rite. Like if more people

41:58

want to guess the number, they've got to get

42:01

more powerful computers to do it so that they

42:03

can generate more guesses faster, right,

42:05

and it becomes a kind of arms race where it's like you

42:07

need a really fast computer to guess faster,

42:10

and the probability that you're gonna win and

42:12

get the number, it's gonna get small. Or if

42:14

there's more competition and more machines actually

42:16

guessing it. So yeah, basically the environmental

42:19

impact can get bigger as there's more and more

42:21

people guessing it on more and more powerful machines,

42:23

so that they get a chance to actually win

42:26

that coin. Right, So I

42:28

mean in this in this episode

42:30

that we did, we learned that China has

42:32

actually banned cryptocurrency mining, so

42:35

a lot of the miners moved to the United

42:37

States in the last few years, and that there are literally

42:40

coal plants in places like Montana

42:42

that are staying open just to

42:45

provide seven electricity to

42:47

people guessing numbers. Like what

42:49

that is insane? You know, like if you kept the coal plan

42:51

open because you were, you know, allowing

42:54

poor people to heat their homes

42:56

or you know, something that would like somewhat

42:59

useful. Okay, maybe I mean you should really

43:01

shut down the cold plant. But like this is

43:03

literally just to guess numbers,

43:05

like what this is like it's it's

43:07

bananas. Just the idea of hoarding

43:10

an illogical amount of money, like an

43:12

immoral amount of money. They even

43:14

say, by the way, petrochemical careers

43:16

are fine if you're creating wealth

43:18

and giving it to a charity, but first

43:21

of all, you're creating a person who works

43:23

in petrochemicals, like which

43:26

like the the human mind and a human

43:28

life is like so valuable

43:30

and like capable of creating

43:33

so much momentum and meaning in

43:35

this world, and you are just throwing

43:38

that away to create wealth

43:40

cynically to give it to you who

43:43

then you are saying that

43:45

you are better able to distribute

43:47

that wealth than anyone else in the world,

43:49

that like all these thrown away lives

43:52

of working in finance and petro chemicals

43:54

are worth it so that you can

43:57

have all of the money to

43:59

distribute you to all these different

44:01

places because you're so much smarter

44:04

than everyone. But you don't think

44:06

climate change is a problem. But it

44:08

also like it misses such

44:10

a fundamental point, which is there is

44:13

real good, well

44:16

paid, profit generating

44:19

work to be done solving the climate

44:21

crisis. So this idea of like

44:24

whatever whatever you do for eight or ten

44:26

or twelve or sucking sixteen hours a day if

44:28

you're on Wall Street, like there's

44:30

no way to make that part of the solution,

44:33

which is just insane.

44:35

Like we should be trying to

44:37

align the ways that we spend our

44:40

time and our energy and then also

44:42

the ways that we align our money, right,

44:44

But it's like it's like overlooking

44:46

an entire landscape. I mean, I'm on

44:49

some of you know, I mostly got them because I'm interesting

44:51

interested, not because I'm like looking for a job

44:53

in climate tech. But like I get these emails where

44:55

I'm like, holy sh it, there's so

44:57

much hiring happening in

45:00

the really well paid roles,

45:02

like you know, all this stuff. So it's like what

45:05

what And I mean, I'm an I'm an Aluma

45:07

Oxford. I don't want to like, you know, shoot on my

45:09

brethren, but like, when it's deserved,

45:12

it's deserved. And this is quintessential

45:14

what Emily at Can, our friend

45:16

who does the climate newsletter Heated,

45:19

calls first time climate dude.

45:22

It's like, oh, it's a dude

45:24

who thought about climate change for the first time

45:26

and he now thinks he's an expert, and he's probably

45:28

gonna publish like a piece of the New Yorker about

45:30

how where everything screwed or

45:33

you know whatever or something

45:35

like this, and you know, be aware

45:38

if you're a first time climate dude, like do

45:40

a bunch of listening first,

45:42

primarily to women, and then

45:45

maybe jump jump into the game and

45:47

compared doing what effective

45:50

altruism preaches, where you

45:52

throw away your life working for an evil

45:54

cause for like a chemical petrochemical

45:57

company so that you can then get

46:00

your money to this one fund that

46:02

is then you know already has

46:04

too much more money than it knows what to do with

46:07

with task shifting. Like task

46:09

shifting that you guys talked about in

46:11

your episode on like climate and mental

46:13

health, was like that that's

46:15

such a great example of like a way to contribute

46:20

to the world. That is like

46:22

exponential growth. Like the idea

46:24

that you teach other

46:27

people to like

46:29

help other people with mental health so

46:31

that they then can

46:33

like build a movement of like mental health

46:36

and people like being able to like

46:39

cope with the immense amount of grief around

46:42

climate change and like that that is like

46:45

crippling like that that just like

46:47

that that idea of yeah,

46:50

yeah, yeah, I mean if you think about

46:52

I think I saw a number recently that like roughly

46:55

a billion people on the planet are already

46:57

struggling with some kind of mental healthing.

47:00

The mental health infrastructure

47:03

that we have is already like totally not meeting

47:06

the existing need, and we're just like

47:09

cooking it up more. Right,

47:11

as as climate impacts intensify

47:14

and awareness of this issue intensifies,

47:16

so like there are not enough therapists

47:18

on the planet to possibly use

47:20

that model to to meet

47:22

the need. Right. And so this idea

47:25

that actually Brett Ray talks about in

47:27

that episode about like peer

47:29

support counselors and

47:32

basically equipping normal

47:34

people with these skills

47:36

that you know, there's real

47:39

need for mental health professionals in certain

47:41

situations, but for a lot of what we're

47:43

talking about, people kind of need like well

47:45

held you know, containers,

47:48

like the kind of thing that alcoholics Anonymous right

47:50

manages to do. It's like those are

47:53

that's peer to peer support, and

47:55

it gets a lot of people a lot of

47:57

the way that they need to go. And I think

47:59

it's really citing to think about how

48:02

how more of us could help, right. And

48:06

Yeah, and you know, Catherine edited this book

48:08

called All We Can Save, which I'm also in

48:10

and it's a collection of women writers.

48:12

And the cool thing that she did with that book is that

48:14

she created a whole program called Circles, which

48:17

is that you can like basically read this book

48:19

with a community of people around you.

48:21

And and that is doing what we're

48:24

talking about here, right, Like you don't

48:26

have to go get a climate

48:28

informed therapists specifically to talk

48:30

about the problem and the solutions. You could

48:32

for example, pick up a copy of All we Can

48:35

Save and ask a few friends

48:37

from work or a few friends from your community

48:39

to sit down and read the book with you over the course

48:41

of a few weeks and have conversations. You know,

48:44

that's the kind of scalable model that

48:46

would allow a lot more people to find a pathway

48:48

into climate work. And that doesn't have to

48:50

be like professional work. It can also just be in their

48:53

day to day lives totally.

48:55

Yeah, Well, like building a human

48:58

like a connect and based

49:00

movement where you're like connecting with other people

49:02

and communicating with other people as opposed to

49:05

giving your life to a oil

49:07

company. I'm loving how much

49:09

you are hating on effective altruism. It

49:11

is amazing. It's I mean it's

49:14

because like I I've talked

49:16

about it before people have been like, yeah, but they

49:18

do some good and it's just like there's

49:21

something really

49:23

like at the very philosophical

49:25

core and like that was what I studied

49:27

in in school, and like there's just something

49:30

from the outset at the core that I was like,

49:32

this is there. There's

49:34

like some eugenics buried in there, and its worldview

49:37

because they're like mechanical.

49:41

It's really weirdly robotic

49:45

at its heart. Yeah, So

49:47

I don't know, I just I just think I also think

49:49

it's very dangerous because the

49:52

the apparatus that we're talking about that is

49:54

like you know, the establishment

49:56

currently and that has the

49:58

New York Times and like has a lot

50:00

of powerful tools at his disposal

50:03

and a lot of inertia. Like

50:05

they are not going to go into

50:08

the future as

50:10

like allowing themselves to be defined

50:12

as the bad guy. So they're going to

50:14

come up with something that

50:17

allows them to be like, no, we're the good guys.

50:19

This is like actually really smart, and it

50:22

was cool that we totally burned down the planet because

50:24

like we made money in the process. Actually, it's

50:26

funny. There's this professor who

50:28

have criticized who won the Nobel Prize

50:31

in economics for his work on climbate

50:34

Leon like swings really big when she when

50:36

she takes takes on. But

50:39

anyway, he you know, his models which

50:41

he won the Nobel Prize for, which was like seriously,

50:44

um, he claims that

50:46

like you know, yeah, climate change

50:48

will collapse earth systems whatever. But like

50:51

the thing is, agriculture is like four percent of

50:53

global gdplea GDP, so even

50:55

if all agriculture collapses. It's like nb

50:57

D because it's only four percent and we're going to have

50:59

like so much more growth in other sectors, so like whatever.

51:02

But then you're like, dude, but there'll be no food and

51:05

that can go like

51:10

I know, right, almost like we're maybe undervaluing

51:13

it with just reducing it to like a GDP number

51:17

the standard to be measuring these things in terms

51:19

of importance. And it's like if the stuff

51:22

gets so disembodied, it's like yeah,

51:25

like these philosophies like in the ether

51:27

whatever, but like we live on a we

51:29

live on a planet, and the planet is real,

51:32

and like it's if there's

51:34

material stuff that is possible

51:37

or not possible here and if

51:40

we're not acting acting you

51:42

know, within the bounds of the

51:44

physical reality of this again

51:47

like very amazing Earth, as

51:49

another one of our lovely climate

51:51

friends, k Marvel says, this is the only good

51:53

planet, so like we'd

51:55

better get serious, like

51:57

Mars is a good planet to live here, not

52:00

a good planet, no planet. The

52:02

way they addressed that is by shifting the timeline

52:04

so they're like four years in the future, we'll be able

52:06

to travel to other planets and

52:08

we will have done that with all of our

52:11

amazing like petrochemical extraction

52:13

and stuff like we will we did that like

52:15

gold Star for us. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

52:18

it's the Cave and Doctor Strangelove. It's a bunch

52:20

of like rich guys in the room deciding

52:22

they'll just have to be the ones who carry the species

52:25

forward by you know, having

52:27

sex a bunch in a cave somewhere,

52:30

and yeah it's

52:33

got to I got to watch that film

52:36

for a class in high school, and I'm still like,

52:38

what a great great

52:40

Like we had a class movie night to watch

52:42

and discussed. After Strange Love, I'm like, I

52:45

would like to go back to school some days, no grades,

52:48

no homework, just like you know, the experiences,

52:52

Yeah, just the vibes. Al

52:56

Right, well, enough of the light stuff.

52:58

We do have to get to the mob stick. Let's

53:00

take a quick let's take a quick break

53:03

and we'll be right back and

53:15

we're back. Yeah, sorry,

53:18

sorry for Yeah, we

53:20

we ended up filling up a lot of time with effective

53:22

altruism. But when I think the

53:25

rare, the question on everyone's mind

53:27

is t g I Friday's

53:30

mots sticks got no mots

53:33

really really a disappointing stuff coming

53:36

out of this uh, this this

53:38

ex brand food company that I'm now a

53:40

virulent hater of Inventor Foods

53:43

Incorporated. So um oh, but they sound

53:45

so wholesome. They sound inventure

53:47

foods inventure

53:51

all right. Well, long story short, A

53:53

federal judge in Chicago allowed a class

53:55

actually lawsuit to move forward when it

53:57

was discovered that the advertised g

53:59

G I for Friday's Mozzarella Snacks sticks

54:02

actually do not contain mozzarella, but

54:04

only cheddar cheese. Okay,

54:06

I know, so are

54:08

these the frozen the

54:10

frozen one? So the big note that we have on this

54:12

is, if you, like me,

54:15

love to just get your Friday's started

54:18

by snacking on some apps that your local teaching

54:20

I Friday's fret not. The story is not about

54:22

the actual restaurants. You're good. You can

54:24

still get your points, your whatever

54:27

cocktail they got going on Fridays, and enjoy some

54:29

apps. Were all down for that. However, when

54:32

it comes to the frozen snacks, of which

54:34

I am also a fan, We're

54:37

being We're being lied to. We're

54:39

being lied to. And I think that this story,

54:42

while absolutely not important at

54:44

all, also comes at a time

54:46

when we are seeing the repercussions

54:49

of people taking what

54:51

is advertised at face value. And

54:53

I think that it is important that we

54:55

crush this narrative that the

54:57

infant your in the part

55:00

me that the very cool company Invator

55:02

Food thinks claims is what would

55:04

they say, Uh, it's not reasonable

55:07

that a customer would think a shelf stable

55:10

crunchy snacks product actually

55:12

contained mozzarella, which

55:14

is such horseshit to

55:16

me. You can't be advertising something and be like,

55:19

Okay, well surely you didn't actually think

55:21

it was going to have this. Just say

55:23

it doesn't have it. This is like the Pepsi

55:25

points thing all over. They're

55:27

like did you watch that? I loved it. I'm

55:30

not gonna Oh,

55:32

Jack Lee would like, what have you been doing? There's

55:35

a Netflix show it's called like Dude, Where's My

55:37

Jet? And it's about this kid who

55:39

in the nineties collected all these Pepsi

55:41

points so that actually he bought them because you

55:43

could buy them based on a fine print, so that he could

55:45

get a jet which was advertised a really

55:47

expensive fighter jet. And it ended up

55:49

going through the court system and there was this really pro

55:52

corporate judge which we could end up with here.

55:54

I mean, I mean the Judge might just be like, yeah,

55:56

mozzarella chet or what's the difference, n

55:58

b D? You know, so, so

56:03

yeah, it's quite a good Netflix show. I would

56:05

recommend it if you're into like nineties nostalgia

56:07

and like, you couldn't really call it

56:09

crime. I guess it's like advertising false

56:11

advertise. It's it's quite funny and it's

56:14

what I think. It's what we're going through here with the idea

56:16

that the no reasonable person would

56:18

think. It's that the you have

56:20

to be at this point, we are all so familiar

56:23

with the idea of fine print. It's like everything is

56:25

on the fine print. So any little, like you

56:27

know, any leeway that we're allowed to have,

56:30

we're looking for that. And so when you advertise

56:32

a Harrier jet for seven million Pepsi points,

56:35

I'm figuring out how to get those seven million

56:37

pepsi points and getting a Harrier jet.

56:39

And in this scenario, if you're saying their mon

56:41

sticks, I'm expecting to take those things out

56:43

of the microwave, crack them open, and have

56:46

that gooey, gooey mess of mozzarella cheese

56:48

spill out onto my plate. And when you're telling

56:50

me it's cheddar I'm taking you to court for

56:53

shame. I'm glad that

56:55

kid didn't get a Harrier jet personally,

56:58

Like, how

57:01

was he planning to fuel that? That is a big

57:03

part of the first episode, yes, but it it moves

57:05

on from there also. I'm just surprised,

57:08

as a food lover such as

57:10

yourself, that you were a

57:12

fan of these and didn't, like,

57:14

do have they taken all the flavor out of the

57:16

cheddar to disguise it as mazzarella?

57:19

Those aren't Those are two cheeses that seem like

57:21

they would be easily discernible from one

57:23

another. You know, that's funny that you

57:25

mentioned that, because like, while cheddar by on

57:28

display,

57:32

we're back, Um, you know what's fun

57:34

what's fun about cheddar cheese vers? And you find

57:36

this with like you know how Subway had the all

57:38

of our meats are just turkey and blah blah

57:40

blah. It's like you can kind of just inject flavor

57:42

into these very base substances

57:45

to make them whatever you want. And cheddar

57:47

is definitely one of those kinds of cheese that has such a range

57:49

of flavors. You have your very soft mild cheddars

57:51

to your super sharp Vermonts or whatever,

57:54

where it's like Cheddar can be Cheddar

57:56

can be anything, baby, But it's like, in this

57:58

particular scenario, you're advertising

58:00

mots. What are you doing? What

58:03

are you doing? But at least it wasn't

58:05

American find

58:08

the silver lining American. But

58:10

that's a different story entirely. That goes to the Burger thing,

58:13

which I'm slowly transitioning out of. But

58:15

alas guys, I

58:17

think this might be as big of a story

58:19

as like the fossil field companies lying to

58:21

us for like decades about climate change. I mean,

58:23

I mean this is like this should be on the cover.

58:26

All have a piece, right. It's like it's

58:29

the sense of like we're a corporation and

58:32

we can say whatever, and we can puppeteer

58:34

people in ways that are minor

58:38

like the Cheddar slide, and

58:40

also really major, like I don't know, we'll bake the

58:42

planet and in the world Mozzarella

58:46

stick and guess what you're not going to get to do on

58:48

a you know, baked planet.

58:51

You're not going to get to have those nice Monts realist, not

58:53

to get to have them at all. Nobody wants

58:55

a future without Moza realistic than cheddar

58:58

the like shit cheese.

59:02

I also didn't realize that the people that you

59:04

could be like, oh my god, they're trying to

59:06

serve me cheddar, Like

59:09

how dare you? I thought cheddar was

59:13

like it's definitely a more flavorful, Like

59:15

sharp cheddar is very flavorful. I'm

59:19

just saying that. I'm it's always

59:21

interesting. Like so there's that book Salt

59:23

Sugar Fat by Michael Moss

59:25

that is about like the how the

59:27

food industry operates, and they have this section

59:30

that I always bring up because it's so mind

59:32

blowing that like a lot of the like

59:35

cheesiness of food in

59:37

the eighties and nineties was driven

59:39

by an excess of milk

59:42

fat that they had stored in

59:44

a cave somewhere. Because

59:47

of skim milks popularity in the late

59:49

seventies and early eighties, they had

59:51

all these fat like

59:54

excesses, and so they were like all right, so

59:56

they made deals with fast

59:58

food companies that and they could get like

1:00:00

cheese really cheaply. So I'm just like

1:00:03

picturing a cheddar cheese

1:00:05

exit like a bumper cheddar cheese,

1:00:07

and they're just like backing a truck up to these

1:00:10

places just being take this cheddar

1:00:12

off our hands, please. The same thing with corn

1:00:14

subsidies and high fruc doust corn syrup. It's the same

1:00:16

reason. So we have such an excess of it because

1:00:18

of how we subsidize it that we

1:00:21

just put it in literally everything.

1:00:24

Yeah, they can do it. They can

1:00:26

get away with it. They can't be sued because the

1:00:28

Supreme Court is protecting

1:00:31

corporations. Long story short, paid for

1:00:34

about the fossil fuel industry, bam. Long

1:00:36

story short. Power to the people. Don't

1:00:38

be lied to buy these large conglomerates, and don't

1:00:40

let Inventure Foods tell you that you can't

1:00:42

have motsticks out of the microwave, thank you very

1:00:45

much. And don't and don't let

1:00:47

whoever did the branding for Inventure food

1:00:49

to get near your startup. Just

1:00:52

just be honest. If you who doesn't have

1:00:54

any milk in it, call it a chocolate drink. And I'm

1:00:56

fine with that. And that's what they have done. They made

1:00:58

that decision, and I'm fine with that. I'm still

1:01:00

sipping on that. You who find yeah,

1:01:03

yeah, all right, well Catherine

1:01:05

Leah, such a pleasure having you both on

1:01:08

the daily Zeitgeist. Where can people

1:01:10

find you? Follow you here? You all that good

1:01:12

stuff. Well, you can find the pod at

1:01:15

degrees pod dot com and

1:01:18

anywhere anywhere anywhere you get

1:01:20

podcasts. Wherever you're listening to

1:01:22

this podcast, we are also there.

1:01:25

You can find me on social media at dr

1:01:27

k Wilkinson and I'm

1:01:30

I'm on Twitter, however along that platform

1:01:32

lasts at at Leah with an H.

1:01:34

Stokes and uh yeah,

1:01:37

we're out there trying to save

1:01:39

the planet and we are always always

1:01:41

wanting more people to jump in on the climate

1:01:43

bandwagon. It is a cool band wagon

1:01:46

and it is open for all, especially

1:01:48

with the heat pump up. It's pretty cool. I know, the

1:01:51

very fairy dance parties, just

1:01:54

like it's very cool. Is

1:01:56

there a tweet or some of the work

1:01:58

of social media that you've

1:02:00

been enjoying, Leah, let's start with

1:02:02

you. Well, I think I misunderstood

1:02:04

the assignment because I don't know if you're remembered that I

1:02:07

read books. Uh my,

1:02:10

my media is a book. Oh

1:02:14

and actually I think you might quite like this book, Jack,

1:02:16

given what you've been saying. It's called Ducks

1:02:18

two Years in the Oil Sands, and it's the graphic

1:02:21

novel written by Kate Beaton, who

1:02:23

did that whole herk of vagrant stuff if

1:02:25

you remember. Anyway, she's like a cool comic.

1:02:28

Anyway. It's a book about like the

1:02:30

horrors that is capitalism and the fossil

1:02:32

field industries and it's beautiful.

1:02:35

It's it's about the tar sands

1:02:37

in Canada, and I just loved it.

1:02:39

So, um, that's what That's what I'm really

1:02:41

into right now. Ducks two years in the oil sands.

1:02:43

But sorry, it's not yeah,

1:02:46

d like ducks, like like I just didn't know

1:02:48

how to spell, like quack quack like quack

1:02:51

quack. Yeah, there you go. I don't

1:02:53

know if you know words they come in books

1:02:55

and stuff. That's like yeah,

1:02:56

yeah, now that the quack quack was actually

1:02:59

very helpful you

1:03:03

Oh. I mean when I saw Dave

1:03:06

Wasserman's tweet last night, I've

1:03:08

seen enough like that tweet

1:03:10

gave me more life than anything on social

1:03:13

media recently. I've also on the

1:03:15

book thread I've been. Did you know about

1:03:17

the Libby app? Yes, it's

1:03:19

cont to your library

1:03:21

cards, lady, Okay, it's connected to your

1:03:23

public library and you can just

1:03:25

go wild on audiobooks because unlikely I

1:03:28

do not have time or enough time

1:03:30

to read and so I've been listening

1:03:32

to Octavia Butler, Parable of the

1:03:34

Sower and now parable of the Talents, and man,

1:03:37

I mean there's a guy who runs for president

1:03:40

on the theme of make America great again.

1:03:42

Like this woman was so tapping

1:03:45

into the future. I just read

1:03:47

the first one a couple of months ago. Actually

1:03:50

I was scared. I was like a little scared.

1:03:54

The second one is kind of upsetting, though,

1:03:56

to be honest, I gotta be honest. I got

1:03:58

about three quarters the way through pair Bold. The talent sounds

1:04:01

like this is so depressing, but

1:04:03

I mean it's great. She's genius, she's a

1:04:05

prophet, she saw the future. But

1:04:08

like, yeah, we get

1:04:13

it just gets a little depressing, you know what

1:04:15

I mean? Like Dannel,

1:04:20

I'll go ahead. I know I was

1:04:22

going to jump the gun and just say thank you, but

1:04:24

now I want to hear from what about

1:04:27

you? Do you read books? Are you still on the how

1:04:30

about you dumped up? But Lord

1:04:33

knows, we're about to bring the quality

1:04:35

of the content way down here with

1:04:37

a couple of stupid ass tweets because

1:04:40

I live for an absolutely inconsequential

1:04:42

observation about nothing. So this

1:04:45

one comes from Elite of Battle Angel Wait

1:04:47

First of all, you can find me on the internet at DJ underscore

1:04:49

Danial on all Things. I'm live on

1:04:51

Twitch Wednesdays, Fridays and Sundays. If you want to see

1:04:54

bad Rocket League and me eating

1:04:56

food in a gross manner. That's not really true to

1:04:58

do that all the time, just sometimes, but it's fun to do anyway.

1:05:00

This is a tweet from elitea battle angel stand

1:05:02

account at Punished Picnic. Here's

1:05:05

the problem with fruit. It's inconsistent.

1:05:07

Some apples are delicious, some tastes bad.

1:05:10

Sometimes blueberries are great, sometimes

1:05:12

they are disgusting. You know what's the same every

1:05:14

time? Dorrito's that's

1:05:17

good point. That's that capitalist

1:05:19

consistency. That

1:05:22

is where like we could have

1:05:24

all of this ship fixed by now, but

1:05:27

the instead, like all of our

1:05:29

brightest minds went into the labs

1:05:31

at Doritos and created the

1:05:34

perfect nacho cheese flavor Dorito

1:05:36

that you can't stop eating. That is where

1:05:38

the greatest minds and the scientific

1:05:41

innovations have gone for the past century.

1:05:44

I got I got one more slightly more contemporary

1:05:46

one from Josh Gondleman at Josh Gondleman.

1:05:49

This new AI picture thing is ridiculous.

1:05:51

If you want a portrait of yourself, you should get it the

1:05:54

old fashioned way by falling in love with the

1:05:56

charming stranger on an intercontinental sea voyage

1:05:58

and then paying him to draw you like one of his French

1:06:00

girls. Yes, thank you,

1:06:02

that's the way it's done. Amen to that, Jack,

1:06:06

What about you? Gosh a lot of really

1:06:08

smart stuff. I think I'm gonna go with this tweet

1:06:10

from Drill. In real life,

1:06:13

Yoda would get eaten by a dog. Yoda,

1:06:18

dude, it's just harsh

1:06:20

facts. You know. We're all about living in that

1:06:22

reality. Oh

1:06:27

like that

1:06:29

does feel kind of parable. Of the talents.

1:06:36

You can find me on Twitter at

1:06:38

Jack Underscore O'Brien. You can find us

1:06:40

on Twitter at Daily Zeichgeist. We're at the

1:06:43

Daily Ziegeist on Instagram. We have a Facebook

1:06:45

fan page and a website Daily zi geist

1:06:47

dot com, where we post our episodes and

1:06:49

our foot foot off the

1:06:51

information that we talked about in today's episode,

1:06:54

as well as we like off to a song that we

1:06:56

think you might enjoy. And with Miles

1:06:58

out, we like to always ask super producer

1:07:00

Justin Smith if there's a song that

1:07:02

he would like to recommend. I do. I'm

1:07:05

going to visit my beloved

1:07:08

home city of Chicago. So tomorrow,

1:07:10

so I'll be out for the next couple of days. So

1:07:12

I want to shine some light on a Chicago artist.

1:07:15

This is an artist named Nax Fortune

1:07:17

comes from Oak Park, Shadow Oak Park. This

1:07:20

is a song called Little Thing. It's

1:07:22

such a nostalgic vibe for me. If

1:07:25

you are a child in the nineties, this will

1:07:27

really have you feel in a certain way. It's

1:07:29

got a low fi d I y

1:07:32

kind of style to it and it's

1:07:34

just like bright pads and talking about a summer

1:07:36

love and it really will send you back

1:07:38

to that time of you know, just being in the young

1:07:41

kid in the city. So this is a

1:07:43

Little Thing by nots Fortune. You can

1:07:45

find that in the footnotes. All

1:07:49

right, well, we will link off to that in the footnotes.

1:07:51

The Daily Zeke is the production of iHeart Radio.

1:07:53

For more podcast for my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart

1:07:55

Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your

1:07:57

favorite shows. That's gonna do it

1:07:59

for us this morning, back this afternoon to tell

1:08:02

you what is trending, and we'll talk to

1:08:04

you all then. Bye.

1:08:07

Mm hmmmmm.