0:03

Two of the best known individuals in the United States

0:05

over the last forty years have been Bill and Hillary

0:07

Clinton. Bill served as President

0:09

of the United States for eight years. Hillary Clinton

0:11

served as First Lady for eight years, but also

0:13

as a United States Senator and Secretary of State.

0:16

I had a rare chance to interview both of them together

0:18

at the ninety second Street Why and I think their

0:20

insights are quite interesting for current affairs,

0:23

not only about what they've done before, but

0:25

what they're working on now. So,

0:29

President Clinton, let's talk about some current affairs

0:31

for a moment. What do you think is the

0:33

likely outcome of Ukraine? Do you see any

0:36

resolution of that in the near term? And obviously,

0:39

Secretary Clinton, what your views are as well.

0:43

I don't expect it to be resolved in the

0:45

near term unless Putin

0:49

had some sort of change of heart, or

0:53

unless the United States and others walk

0:56

away from Ukraine and

0:58

they can't get enough arms nomination

1:00

to continue. I mean, they've been

1:02

amazing, you know, they

1:05

fought and fought and fought. They haven't asked

1:07

any Americans to come

1:09

and fight with them. But I think

1:11

we I

1:13

think they have a chance to win. I think they will

1:15

win if we stay with them.

1:17

What do you think is there any way out

1:19

of this that a face saving way out of this that

1:21

you can think of, or what is your view on how this might

1:23

be resolved?

1:25

Well, David, first, I think it's imperative

1:28

that we continue, and I would even argue

1:30

increase our support for Ukraine

1:32

because, as Bill just said, the

1:36

Russians are back to indiscriminate

1:38

bombing in cities,

1:42

aiming at apartment buildings, hospitals,

1:45

other civilian sites. They

1:48

have committed war crimes,

1:51

they are in the

1:53

midst of committing genocide, particularly

1:56

with respect of how they're kidnapping

1:58

children and forcing

2:01

Ukrainians into Russia.

2:03

So the bottom line for me is the

2:05

only potential possible

2:09

end to the hostilities is

2:12

either a victory by

2:14

Ukraine, including them being able to take

2:16

back the property the territory

2:19

seized in twenty fourteen, or pushing

2:22

Russia out of what they have seized

2:24

since February of last year, and

2:27

so that could give give us

2:29

a breathing space to perhaps

2:31

have some kind of opportunity

2:34

to protect Ukraine's

2:36

legitimate borders with the exception of

2:39

what they didn't get back from twenty fourteen, and

2:42

to move them forward in

2:44

reconstruction and rebuilding in the

2:47

face of such devastation.

2:48

Are you surprised that the US China relationship

2:51

now is as bad as it's been since

2:53

Tieneman Square, it seems, And what do you think could be

2:55

done about that to improve it?

3:00

I think it's difficult, and.

3:04

I think it'll get harder if

3:06

we walk away from Ukraine,

3:09

because I think it will increase the willingness

3:11

of Russia of China to

3:14

attack Taiwan. It's a real dilemma

3:16

for me because I worked hard with China and

3:18

I tried to build a relationship, and

3:21

we desperately need a cooperative relationship

3:23

with them to deal with things like COVID,

3:27

climate change, North

3:29

Korea. There's a whole

3:31

lot of things that we ought to be doing together,

3:34

but they make it virtually impossible. Because

3:39

again, if you decide to stay

3:41

for life, whether your

3:44

name is putin she or

3:47

Smith, your

3:49

number one priority has got

3:51

to be crushing all the scent, eliminating

3:55

any source of alternative power in your

3:57

country, and

3:59

then keeping people lathered up by

4:02

being angry.

4:02

At somebody somewhere else.

4:04

And so I believe

4:07

the best thing to do is

4:11

to keep talking to them, even

4:13

while we have to disagree with them

4:15

publicly.

4:17

Secretary Clinton, are you worried about a possible

4:19

invasion by China Taiwan?

4:21

When she saw that Putin's

4:23

invasion number one didn't work as

4:25

fast and smoothly

4:28

as Putin apparently thought it would, and

4:30

that the world literally united, with

4:33

a few exceptions to impose

4:35

sanctions that are taking

4:37

a toll on the Russian economy, not as fast

4:39

as I would like, because I think that could change

4:42

the power dynamic inside. But she saw

4:44

that, and I think

4:47

before the Russian invasion there

4:49

was a good chance he would have moved

4:52

on Taiwan within two to three years.

4:54

I think that timetable has been pushed back.

4:57

So since you've left Washington,

5:00

there's been an increase in what i'll call the

5:02

divisiveness in Washington. I'm sure

5:04

you've noticed. And

5:06

what do you think accounts for this? It's much

5:08

worse than it was even when you were there, and it wasn't

5:11

great then, but now the Democrats

5:13

Republicans don't even want to talk to each other, let alone

5:15

think about bipartisan legislation. What

5:17

do you think causes this and you see any solution

5:20

in the near term.

5:22

Well, if I say it.

5:23

You'll say I'm being a partisan Democrat, but I'm

5:25

going to say it anyway.

5:27

It's because the Republicans have been rewarded

5:30

for being divisive, and

5:32

it's it, and it's it's

5:35

great for them because they're great branders,

5:38

they're really good at they're better at than we are,

5:41

and they convince people that are

5:43

most left wing members about

5:45

ten percent of our caucus represent one

5:48

hundred percent of us, and

5:50

cause people that get scared in the middle who

5:52

are swing voters, to forget

5:54

that their most right wing members represent

5:57

over ninety percent of them in

5:59

the House and about sixty

6:01

percent in the Senate. I have a lot of Republican

6:04

friends still who just

6:06

pretend it's not going on, or who

6:08

don't like it and don't support it. But

6:11

you can't blame people in politics

6:13

who covert power for doing

6:15

what works, and it's been

6:17

working for them.

6:18

So, President Clinton today, if

6:22

you were to say

6:24

we should change the way the presidents are elected,

6:26

obviously you were elected twice, you probably are reasonably

6:28

happy with the method. But do you think direct

6:31

election of the president popular

6:33

vote would be preferable to the electoral college

6:36

method?

6:36

I do. I think.

6:41

First of all, we

6:43

adopted the electoral college when

6:46

we were thirteen states, and

6:49

we had a couple of really

6:52

big states

6:54

and some

6:57

really really small states that

7:00

had distinct differences.

7:03

But it also helped to

7:06

load up the electoral

7:08

votes of the southern

7:11

states that had slaves. And

7:16

now we know that

7:19

the effect of the electoral college is to give

7:21

about thirty

7:24

six extra votes to

7:27

the most culturally conservative and

7:30

furthest right American

7:33

states. And

7:35

I have no objection to them voting. I

7:38

want them all to vote. I would not unlike

7:40

some of them. I'd never try to make it harder for him to

7:42

vote. I'd make it easier for him to vote. I

7:44

want the votes counted, and I want

7:46

them all to count. But I just don't think you

7:49

can justify that today.

7:52

Now, if you did it, the first

7:54

question you got to ask yourself is would

7:59

we have more or a three party or fourth

8:01

party national elections? And

8:03

if so, would we

8:05

have to have a runoff? That is, should you at least

8:07

require a president to have

8:11

I don't know, forty percent of the vote, forty

8:13

five percent of the vote. Lincoln got

8:15

elected with like thirty nine percent.

8:18

A lot of countries have this, by the way, they have you

8:21

know, you have to get a majority, or you have to get

8:23

something over a minimal

8:25

amount to be president.

8:28

If you're not going to go to a parliamentary system

8:30

which has a lot of coalition governments,

8:33

you have to have I think at

8:36

least some sort of threshold.

8:37

I assume you prefer direct election as

8:39

well.

8:40

Well. I definitely prefer direct election.

8:43

So let me ask you. There's a famous passage

8:46

in your life where you are at Yale Law School

8:48

library and you're seeing

8:52

Bill Clinton looking at you, and you're

8:54

looking at him, and finally you go over to him and say, well,

8:56

stop looking at me, let's have a conversation or

8:58

something like that. So, had

9:01

you not been in the same yet law school class

9:03

or there at the same time, how

9:05

do you think your life would be different? You think

9:07

you would have been president of United States sooner?

9:10

Or would you have gone in the public

9:12

service, or how do you think your life would be different if the

9:15

two of you had not married?

9:17

Wow, I

9:21

think it would have been more boring.

9:23

When you told your parents you're moving to Arkansas,

9:25

what did they say, Well.

9:28

You know my father, You

9:32

know, when I was growing up, my father

9:35

was a very

9:38

big supporter of Republicans,

9:40

He loved Dwight Eisenhower.

9:43

You know, he was you know, World War two vet.

9:46

He really loved that.

9:48

And so when I brought

9:50

Bill home the first time, it wasn't

9:52

so much that he was from Arkansas, was that he was a

9:54

Democrat.

9:57

So Hillary came from

9:59

the town Park Ridge, Illinois

10:01

where Goldwater beat Johnson

10:04

eighty to twenty and the other twenty percent

10:06

Goldwater to Liberal. But

10:10

I loved her father and

10:12

her mother, who was a liberal Democrat.

10:15

She was more liberal and iller than I were. And

10:17

it was interesting how they're listened

10:19

to their marriage unfold in terms of

10:22

raising their children and advice and everything

10:24

was different. But he was a

10:27

really good guy and smart, and

10:29

he wound up, you know,

10:32

working as a volunteer in my campaign

10:34

for Congress in nineteen seventy four.

10:36

I ruined him.

10:37

President Clinton, when you were president three

10:40

times, we had a budget surplus.

10:43

A surplus is when you have more money

10:45

than you spend. And at

10:47

one point it was thought that maybe we would run out

10:49

of having any federal treasury

10:51

bills because we weren't going to have any debt.

10:54

Any ideas about how we can get back to that

10:56

kind of situation.

10:57

Well, first of all, I did have

10:59

a big argument with Alan Greenspan. Alan

11:02

Greenspan was to my left.

11:05

He said, we're not going to be

11:07

able to have interest we can how do we set interest

11:09

rates on federal securities if

11:11

we have no debt? I

11:14

said, Alan, that's a high class problem.

11:16

Let's deal with that. We get to it. But

11:21

let me say I also supported.

11:25

President obama stimulus program, and I

11:27

supported the build

11:29

President Trump passed, and I supported the bill

11:31

President Obama pass. When you have

11:34

zero to negative interest rates, you

11:37

can't run a balance budget and you can't

11:39

start cutting spending without making the economy

11:42

worse. But when

11:44

you do have interest rates, then

11:47

you have to deal with your debt issue, or otherwise

11:50

you spend more and more of your money pay

11:52

an interest on the debt, and you don't have anything left

11:54

for education and health

11:57

and all the science research.

12:00

So I think, first, here's what I think.

12:02

First of all, I think it's nuts to

12:05

make a big issue of this debt limit

12:07

thing. And because

12:09

that's says simply, it's a

12:11

stupid rule we have in America

12:13

that that Congress

12:15

has to approve twice

12:19

paying for something.

12:20

They've already voted to spend on.

12:23

I mean a lot of these people who were opposing

12:26

raising the debt ceiling.

12:28

Voted for most of the debt that

12:31

is embedded there.

12:32

So bottom line, we

12:35

should bring

12:37

the depth sit down as much as

12:39

we can, but we ought to pay our debts.

12:42

You can't spend money, borrow

12:45

it, and then refuse to pay the people

12:47

that loan it to you, not if

12:49

you want to be a great country.

12:50

So you ran for

12:53

the presidential nomination. Barack Obama

12:55

became the nominee, and to your

12:57

surprise, he offered you the position of secretaries

13:00

and you turned that down initially. Why

13:02

did you turn it down?

13:04

She turns everything down. She turned me down

13:06

three times when I asked her to marry it.

13:09

Hard. The false answer is no.

13:13

Well, there is some truth to that, but

13:17

eventually, you know, I do say yes to

13:19

these charming men like Bill Clinton and Barack

13:21

Obama.

13:22

For Parry Clinton, there's a very famous photo

13:24

of you sitting in the situation room looking

13:27

at the Osama bin

13:29

laden effort to capture him.

13:32

What were you all looking at? And everybody's

13:34

mouth was open? What were you afraid it wasn't going to

13:36

work? And when did you realize it actually did work?

13:39

Well?

13:40

Yeah, we were all afraid something

13:42

would go wrong. You know, I was part

13:44

of the small group that

13:47

studied all of the intelligence

13:49

that had been gathered to

13:52

make recommendations to the President about

13:55

whether to do something and if so, what And

13:58

it was a It was the most

14:00

intense public deliberation,

14:04

public service deliberation I've ever been

14:06

part of.

14:06

And it was also, you know, it was secret.

14:08

I couldn't tell Bill, I couldn't talk to anybody

14:11

because how closely

14:13

held it was. But we were in

14:15

that small situation room

14:17

off the big one, and we were watching

14:20

a screen because we had video

14:25

from a drone above. We

14:27

had video of what was happening

14:29

as the helicopters came into land and

14:32

one of the helicopters, its

14:34

tail clipped the

14:37

wire on the wall surrounding

14:41

a little area where animals

14:43

were kept, and so once

14:46

the helicopter tail hit

14:48

we knew it was disabled. And that was the

14:50

moment I think that the picture was taken

14:53

because we all had flashbacks to

14:55

what happened when you know, President Carter tried

14:57

to rescue the hostages in Iran.

15:00

It also meant that we'd have to send in another

15:03

helicopter that was in waiting in

15:05

hiding to get it in there quickly

15:08

enough.

15:09

We had to do all of this literally.

15:11

You know, within twenty thirty minutes, because

15:13

when people were starting to wake up, I mean, we had helicopters

15:16

landing. You know, there was obviously noise.

15:18

People were living in homes

15:20

around the compound. It was a hot night, people

15:23

were sleeping out on their roofs, and we

15:25

were you aware that people were waking

15:27

up and starting.

15:28

To wonder what the heck was going on.

15:30

So when the

15:32

helicopters landed and the

15:34

Navy Seals Seal Team six

15:37

got out to go into the compound,

15:39

we couldn't see that there was there was no video

15:41

of that, so we were all holding our breasts.

15:43

So then we had to wait

15:45

till we got news from inside

15:47

the compound. And there was a you know, there was

15:49

a firefight. The guards

15:53

and one of bin Laden's adult

15:55

sons were you know, you

15:57

know, shooting, and then eventually

16:01

bin Laden was shot, and then

16:03

his body had to be taken out of the compound

16:06

loaded onto one of the helicopters because we had

16:08

to be sure about identification

16:11

to have credibility with the world, and

16:13

we had to blow up the helicopter

16:16

because it was an advanced helicopter

16:18

with a lot of advanced electronics that

16:20

we didn't want the Pakistanis to get because we thought

16:22

the Pakistanis might very well give it

16:24

to either of the Russians, most likely the Chinese.

16:27

So all this was going on, and so.

16:30

Yeah, I think we were all holding

16:32

our breath for you, like twenty minutes. It

16:34

was just so intense,

16:37

and thankfully, you know, President

16:39

Obama made the right decision and it

16:41

worked.

16:41

And something like that's happening. You

16:44

can't and you know about this, You

16:46

can't say to your husband, Bill,

16:48

I have a secret. I just can't tell you. You can't

16:50

do that.

16:51

So he called me as soon as it was over, and

16:54

he said, Bill, we got him. And

16:57

I said who, because

17:02

he knew how hard I tried to get him

17:05

when I was president and nearly did

17:07

once, so he's

17:09

been lauden. Hillary didn't tell you, I

17:12

said, now, mister President, didn't you tell her not

17:14

to tell anybody?

17:15

He said sure, But I said she didn't

17:17

tell anybody.

17:18

Final question for both of you were just about

17:20

out of time. So Secretary

17:22

Clinton, in your long distinguished career,

17:25

what would you say you're most proud of having

17:27

accomplished.

17:28

You know, I'd been Senator from New York

17:31

for you know, about eight months when

17:33

nine to eleven happened, and it

17:36

was the most devastating, horrible

17:40

experience for our city and our country.

17:44

But it was also.

17:47

A absolute

17:49

mandate to act to

17:52

help people who'd been directly affected,

17:54

to help victims' families, to help rebuild

17:56

New York, and it was

17:58

so bipartisan. David, you started with a

18:00

question about that at the very beginning. You know,

18:03

I just want to tell a little story here, because

18:06

you know, Chuck Schumer and I literally

18:08

were the only plane in the sky on September

18:11

twelfth, because we were flown down to New York

18:13

to meet with then Governor Pataki

18:15

and Mayor Giuliani to survey what

18:18

had happened. And it

18:20

was just overwhelming

18:23

to have seen it firsthand

18:25

like that that television could not capture

18:27

it. And we spent the day in

18:30

meetings talking.

18:31

About what we were going to do.

18:33

And that night, around

18:35

eight nine o'clock, Schumer

18:38

and I were, you know, we're Chuck and I were in a

18:40

meeting with everybody, all these

18:42

state, local, federal officials, and

18:45

we were each handed a note from our staffs who

18:47

were with us, and the note said the

18:49

White House has just sent a budget

18:52

request to deal with

18:54

nine eleven for twenty billion

18:56

dollars and there's not a penny for New York in

18:58

it. So I took the last train out

19:00

of Grand Central back to Washington.

19:03

Then that afternoon we go to.

19:04

The White House and so

19:06

it's the two senators from Virginia,

19:09

Senator Allen and Senator John Warner,

19:11

and Chuck and I were in with the President, and

19:14

you know, I could see on his face. I

19:16

mean, this was, you know, a devastating

19:19

obviously you

19:21

know, crisis that had to be dealt

19:23

with. And he says, he

19:26

says to us, so you know, I'm

19:28

with you, what do you need? And I said, we need

19:30

twenty billion dollars, mister President, and he said,

19:33

you got it, and his staff nearly fell off their

19:35

chairs. And so

19:37

then we were going into the Cabinet room, which is next to

19:39

the Oval Office, and we got up to leaving. John

19:41

Warner, who was one of my favorite

19:43

colleagues of all time. He

19:46

stopped me and he goes Hillary, have

19:48

him make that commitment

19:51

in public in this meeting.

19:54

I said, okay, John, So we go in.

19:56

It's all the members of Congress from New York,

19:59

canad Get New Jersey a couple of them, but mostly

20:01

New York and Virginia. And

20:04

the President's talking about how, you know, we're going to

20:07

you know, protect the country and we're going to do this and all

20:09

that. So he finishes talking

20:11

and then I say, and I just want to thank you, mister

20:13

President, for committing twenty billion

20:15

dollars to

20:18

New York. And

20:20

literally, by the time Chuck and

20:22

I got back to the Senate, his

20:25

staff was trying to undo that and

20:28

telling, you know, the Republican

20:30

leaders, you know, don't don't put it in

20:32

the appropriations bill, don't do it. And

20:34

so we just kept calling the White House and Bush that

20:36

I gave my word and you know I'm going to

20:39

follow through.

20:40

That was an amazing moment for me.

20:43

So wow. So

20:45

President Clinton, you look back on your distinguished

20:48

and long service to our country. What are you most proud

20:50

of having achieved?

20:53

Well?

20:54

Can I just add one thing to earn what he said?

20:58

One thing I like.

20:59

About George W. Bush.

21:02

We have fought, we had disagreed. He

21:05

started out more conservative than his father.

21:09

We do speeches together that are really

21:11

funny now because we bad

21:13

mouthed each other in a funny way.

21:17

But he will listen.

21:20

And if he will listen, and

21:22

if he thinks you're right, he'll

21:24

switch. And if he

21:26

thinks you're wrong, he'll argue. That's all

21:29

you can ever ask. And I think that's what

21:31

you should remember. And that's when

21:33

you asked me in the beginning, and I said, the

21:37

polarization was partly because the right

21:39

had been rewarded.

21:40

It's also caused the left too

21:42

easily gives up on people.

21:44

We should We shouldn't talk down

21:46

about people.

21:47

We shouldn't. You know.

21:48

The one thing I loved about Elijah Cummings

21:51

and John Lewis was they treated

21:53

people respectfully and they just

21:55

kept trying. They kept knocking on the

21:57

door. There's some other people out

21:59

there that you can knock on the door.

22:01

No regrets about not having going into the higher

22:04

calling of private equity, right, neither of

22:06

you don't regret that. So on, behalf of

22:09

everybody at the ninety second Street.

22:11

Why oh, that's cause you take care of all the stuff

22:13

that requires real money to do you.

22:17

He gives a lot of that money away. Don't don't

22:19

let him play the rosko on.

22:20

Behalf of the ninety second Street. Why I want to thank you for

22:23

coming here again. You've been here before and

22:25

you're always welcome back. And thank you for a great

22:27

evening.

22:27

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Gavin.

22:32

Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews.

22:35

You can subscribe and download my podcast

22:37

on Spotify, Apple, or wherever

22:40

you listen.