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today at joindhl.com. The

0:38

persistently nineteen where the largest unrest

0:40

Longhorns send in it's history and

0:42

mean even dating back to the

0:44

colonial era. James Grip it's

0:46

is the Globe's Asia Correspondent based

0:48

in Hong Kong. Those. Was

0:50

months of incredibly large scale

0:52

often very violent protests which

0:54

sprang how of initially opposition

0:57

to propose extradition do with

0:59

China became this much wider

1:01

movement for are kind of

1:03

pro democracy causes and against

1:05

police brutality. Protesters

1:10

were fighting pitched battles on the police

1:12

forces during most of cocktails and be

1:14

met with you know, nonlethal rounds and

1:16

water cannon. An

1:22

estimated two million people descended into

1:24

the streets of the city during

1:27

these demonstrations. The. Protests were

1:29

eventually washed by a Twenty

1:31

Twenty National Security Law imposed

1:34

by Beijing. Now.

1:36

Hong Kong as past another law

1:38

meant to root out what it

1:41

calls seditious activity. Sedition.

1:43

Is generally understood as any

1:46

speech or action that incites

1:48

rebellion. But. Hong Kong has

1:50

taken a much wider approach to that

1:52

concept than most countries. And

1:54

this new law called Article Twenty

1:56

Three. Got. A very different reaction

1:59

from the pub. There.

2:01

Was no reaction. You know privately people were

2:03

very concerned and those a lot of consider

2:05

about this new law but there was no

2:07

public response Of is no mass protests. The.

2:10

Previous national Security law means

2:12

that mass protest is no

2:14

longer allowed. Today

2:17

James is on the show to explain

2:19

what's different with article Twenty three. How

2:22

it's expected to change Hong Kong. And

2:24

whose most at risk. I

2:27

mean occur Ram and Wells. And this is the

2:29

decibels from the Globe and Mail. James

2:36

they for being here I'm saddened me. So.

2:39

James To begin here: Why is this

2:41

legislation were talking about? Why Is it

2:43

so significant? So Article Twenty

2:45

Three, the name itself refers to an

2:47

item in Hong Kong Basic Law, which

2:50

is the city's constitution which states that

2:52

the Hong Kong government will enact on

2:54

it's own a lot prevent treason, secession,

2:56

sedition, subversion, and tough to say secrets

2:59

among other things. So the new Article

3:01

Twenty Three law is incredibly broad. It

3:03

creates a host of new offenses, went

3:05

many with really severe penalties, some life

3:08

in prison and penalties, and he. As

3:10

a skunk, some really affects a lot

3:12

of people in Hong Kong. One of

3:15

the main offenses as sedition on the

3:17

back. The updates as colonial era additional

3:19

which has been used a lot recently

3:21

bought. it takes a penalty from that

3:23

from two years to ten years and

3:25

people have been charged for sedition for

3:27

comparatively minor acts you know such as

3:29

Chance Enough pro Democracy slogan or plane

3:31

Apartments Handsome He. Okay, so cost of a lot

3:33

of countries have laws against citizen right? but it sounds

3:36

like good. This one in particular. Is much more

3:38

extreme a lot of other countries that

3:40

have absolutely and long government as as

3:42

pointed to other countries laws including Canada

3:44

zone necessary to legislation to say that

3:46

look we're not doing anything that's different

3:48

from other countries but the how to

3:50

the matter remains that he just wouldn't

3:52

be prosecuted for a lot of these

3:54

offenses in most western democracies in a

3:57

you eat Could not imagine someone been

3:59

brought up on. The discharges in Canada

4:01

for chancing a six word slogan which

4:03

I can't repeat because I will descend

4:05

to law. That couldn't happen by both

4:08

because I think judge retired out point

4:10

blank. And then there would be awesome

4:12

protections for free speech which are tickets

4:15

and the same And they talk about

4:17

necessarily legislation in various European countries. Yes,

4:19

that legislation might be quite strict on

4:22

paper, but it is subjects the European

4:24

Commission on Human Rights and subjects for

4:26

the protections. whereas ultimately. Punk.

4:28

On courts. I've already

4:31

interpreted nurses here's a to this very

4:33

broadly and even if they don't as

4:35

they are narrower or more liberal than

4:37

on the government likes, these cases can

4:40

ultimately be appealed to Beijing and Beijing

4:42

can decide how they should be interpreted.

4:45

I just want quickly clarify james. Article Twenty three

4:47

is a section of of Hong Kong constitution to

4:49

called the Basic Loss And so it is

4:51

the Second Ideals: A Citizen but the actual law

4:54

that was passed as a different name. But essentially

4:56

they're They're like the same thing. Yeah,

4:58

I mean most people will use Article Twenty

5:00

Three is your hands were first this new

5:02

law which is technically be Safeguarding Us and

5:04

Security Ordinance cook. And eat us

5:06

on us a little bit James That let me

5:08

ask you directly. Eight: how sedition understood in Hong

5:11

Kong prior to this new. Legislation This article

5:13

Twenty three. So there was

5:15

a citizen Laura on the books, which

5:17

dates back to the British Colonial era,

5:19

but it basically hadn't been used for

5:21

decades until Twenty Twenty. and there was

5:23

a cool a switch. Interpreted it as

5:25

that police could use some of the

5:28

new national security powers and the baiting

5:30

impose law to prosecute sedition, and prosecutors

5:32

seem to quickly decide that sedition was

5:34

actually a much easier offense to charge

5:36

people with. additions is a very loosely

5:38

defined word. That. You know

5:40

in the dictionary let alone under the law

5:43

of and so it was something that you

5:45

go after all kinds of surveys, criticism of

5:47

the government or this is turn the on

5:49

com officials like she's a lot called quote

5:52

soft resistance which they've never really defined and

5:54

can seem to mean any kind of criticism

5:56

will push back against government policies. And

5:59

so how different? Article Twenty Three from

6:01

The National Security Other One It was passed

6:03

in in Twenty Twenty. In

6:05

practice, the National Security law has

6:07

changed Hong Kong size a dramatically

6:09

and as have the skills sweeping

6:11

effect, it's essentially dismantled the opposition

6:13

movement of Our Democracy Movement, But.

6:16

If. You're an individual person, you know,

6:18

even if you're someone with are a

6:20

ton of anti government muse. It was

6:22

relatively easy to avoid prosecution under the

6:24

nationals Christian or was it was something

6:26

that could be understood to be targeting

6:28

kind of high profile actress mix of

6:31

us. Article Twenty three is much broader

6:33

scope near. The government says it's filling

6:35

these quote loopholes in the law, but

6:37

it's massively expands the type of national

6:39

security sense that one could be charged

6:41

with a negative mean things. Like officials

6:44

have said, if you own a copy.

6:46

Of the Apple Daily newspaper which has been deemed

6:48

to be seditious, you could be charged with sedition

6:50

for having that coffee unless you have what they

6:52

say is a reasonable excuse. Which basically means you

6:54

have that in order to criticize it was on

6:56

the let you know you have a in order

6:58

to warn people away from this horrible newspaper. The

7:01

scope for people been charged under this law is

7:03

much much greater than under the national scarce Hello.

7:05

Suggests. I also understand that bringing

7:07

Article Twenty Three into effect my non

7:09

actually have been possible. without that The

7:11

Twenty Twenty National Security Lock. Can you

7:13

explain that? For. A long time

7:16

this has been on fulfilled this part of the

7:18

constitution. They tried in two thousand and three to

7:20

pass a law but as a lot concerned run

7:22

a spark mass protests and the gave up

7:24

and then a century after that sort of you

7:27

know two decades various governments would just it was

7:29

passing article twenty three but never really follow through

7:31

on it because. The. Sense was this

7:33

would have such masses public reaction and cs

7:35

the they never followed through on it but

7:38

following mass protests and Twenty nineteen and the

7:40

National Security Law the year later which has

7:42

imposed directly on Hong Kong by they doing

7:44

that when he wiped out the civil society

7:46

in Hong Kong and by out bird moxie

7:49

movements so in the wake of the Twenty

7:51

Twenty National Security law as well as mass

7:53

arrests that was also several new laws are

7:55

brought in to change on comes political system

7:58

so to make em all of third. Nice

8:00

to see seats and even lower level

8:02

kind of district level. I'm in a

8:04

kind of counsellor. Seats are all now

8:06

quote Patrick only on that as meant

8:08

that they're all vetted. All these legislators

8:10

have that it in advance and are

8:12

no guaranteed to be pro government and

8:14

to follow in mind when the government

8:17

tries to pass on things that in

8:19

the past while pro democracy lawmakers never

8:21

had a majority in the legislature, they

8:23

were able to block laws and they

8:25

were able kind of filibuster forever on

8:27

a law and also use that's a

8:29

rally public. Opposition and enough status which

8:31

sometimes would have make for government lawmakers

8:33

concerned because some of them a democratically

8:35

elected. Now. They

8:38

don't really need to worry about getting

8:40

elected so much as much as possible.

8:42

This. Or

8:44

it. So let's dig into this a little

8:46

bit more to the key offenses are laid

8:48

out and thus legislation or bad sedition ends

8:51

and influence. I guess from outside forces external

8:53

forces that we talked about, but a seditious

8:55

act could be each other. What about the

8:57

external forces? part of this James? Can you?

8:59

I guess? Yeah, just tell me more about

9:02

that. So. This is

9:04

somewhat difficult said described because because it

9:06

is so broadly written that it's me

9:08

one of those things that we understand

9:10

and practice rather than reading the law.

9:12

but the language or on external forces

9:15

Snc encompasses almost any for an actor.

9:17

So and Jos political parties you're in

9:19

the past there was a lot of

9:21

for democracy and Jos would be involved

9:23

in Hong Kong or the next consulates

9:26

who had would offer support for things

9:28

like pro Lgbt campaigns and things like

9:30

that. That would definitely not happen under

9:32

this new. Law. I mean it would

9:34

be far too dangerous. we can assume the

9:36

any. The advice we can look for model

9:39

for this is China and China has similar

9:41

laws. In China has really cracked down on

9:43

the role of foreign and years and China

9:45

are you know, even on things like environmental

9:48

movement or pushing feminists causes things that aren't

9:50

something that would challenge the government necessarily it's

9:52

those are essentially legal in China will very

9:54

very dangerous. And I

9:56

guess I should ask who, who's the arbiter here? Like who

9:58

gets to make the call. That someone has been

10:01

seditious or or been colluding with external

10:03

forces? Who gets to decide? If

10:06

there are procedures under this law, they

10:08

will most likely go to a hand

10:10

picks circle of National Security judges. We

10:12

were chosen by on consists of sexes.

10:14

Currently there is a hundred percent conviction

10:16

rate under the National Security Law hundred

10:19

percent conviction on haven't Yet last anniversary.

10:21

We haven't had any convictions and he

10:23

prosecutions under this law because it's on

10:25

a few weeks old. So far the

10:27

city's courts have been incredibly strict and

10:30

how they interpret them the national security

10:32

lauren the colonial era sedition law. There's

10:34

no reason. To think that they will

10:36

be more liberal when it comes a

10:38

plane? The new law and even if

10:40

they are uncles legal system is structured

10:42

so that's. While there is a

10:44

core which is maybe misleadingly name's the

10:46

quarter final appeal. The. Government

10:48

can actually appeal cases in that

10:51

cool to China's National People's Congress

10:53

which is the Chinese i'm rubber

10:55

stamp parliament's. And. That and

10:57

then quote reinterpret. The. City's

11:00

basic law to say actually know you

11:02

should decide the case this weight and

11:04

then because as a constitutional decision that is

11:06

have no choice but to apply in

11:08

the way that the emphasis i sounds.

11:11

Awesome! Believe also the arbiter of

11:13

any case in Hong Kong. his

11:15

bedroom. Or

11:19

not. Ready

11:24

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11:26

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11:28

part of a team committed to

11:30

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11:32

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11:37

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11:39

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11:43

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at joindhl.com. As.

11:57

It is a tux good article, twenty three kind of

11:59

in the individual. For individual acts that

12:01

the media is also really worried here

12:03

to wire journalists. Married. So.

12:06

This two aspects in particular of the

12:08

bill that are of greatness as jealous

12:11

and and universe groups like On Com

12:13

Journalist So Station and Reporters Without Borders

12:15

and similar organizations have enough expressed severe

12:17

concern and announced government not to pass

12:19

this law before came into force and

12:21

and those around firstly state secrets and

12:24

because the language or say secrets is

12:26

very broad it's recent months of China

12:28

where state secrets legislation has been used

12:30

to prosecute him as in the past

12:32

for sharing say you know a secret

12:35

speeds that was given. By a in

12:37

a position the other concerns our

12:39

senses and the language or on

12:41

sedition could be applied to when

12:44

you're quoting some on a spicy

12:46

say an overseas critic of stung

12:48

government because it's a lot of

12:50

prominent On Com activists who are

12:52

now in exile, some of humor

12:54

fugitives from Duncan governments and then

12:57

finally saw foreign media. For media

12:59

that gets funding or support from

13:01

overseas of a see the external

13:03

forces language comes into effect the

13:05

Radio Free. Asia which receives money and

13:07

directly from the Us government. the crown

13:10

calm before the lorry came into force

13:12

because they'd already been singled out by

13:14

Hong Kong officials as a as an

13:16

external force and the writings on the

13:18

wall for them where they to stay

13:20

very likely that they might have rocketed

13:22

and surveys on com a nice things

13:25

to Taiwan. And I guess what could

13:27

happen to a journalist? If they're they're found to have

13:29

contrariness. Last. I. Mean some

13:31

of the worst offenses have life in prison

13:33

I think is probably less likely that had

13:35

jealous of each house without a sense but

13:38

I'm you know a citizen offense comes with

13:40

up to ten years state secrets. the can

13:42

be years in prison and any a sense

13:44

where a defendant is on to has acted

13:46

in collusion with an external force ads about

13:49

trees for years to the conviction. So if

13:51

Radio Free Asia had stayed in Hong Kong

13:53

and they were found to have been seditious

13:55

and acting with an external force because of

13:58

their funding from the Us government, that could

14:00

have been thirteen fourteen years in prison flappers.

14:02

While still do we have a sense are there

14:04

some journalists who I guess more at risk than

14:06

others. It's hard

14:09

to know because on one hand oversee

14:11

the lore is very concerning and we

14:13

can look at how China has prosecuted

14:15

journalists in the past. On the other

14:17

the Afghan government does insist the be

14:19

doing you know quote legitimate proposes have

14:21

nothing to fear. Basically that will be

14:23

concerned for people that worked for say

14:25

a public funded broadcaster from another country.

14:27

So things like the be seen Cbc

14:29

doesn't have a presence and and Hong

14:31

Kong but you know that type of

14:33

organization because in other overseas have a

14:35

link through your funding to it for

14:37

foreign governments are government funded. Media there.

14:39

For a privately funded meter organization like

14:41

say The Globe Mail, we would hope

14:43

that that would never be defined as

14:46

an external force, but again the we

14:48

don't really know and it is concerning.

14:51

I mean James class character based in Hong Kong.

14:53

Obviously I like how are you feeling about all

14:55

of that. I. Was often

14:57

ask that question when the National Security law

15:00

comes forth and would can confidently say while

15:02

this had a huge effect on Hong Kong,

15:04

it didn't really affect me to say that

15:06

that this was something that was as Tix

15:08

is a foreign journalists in Hong Kong was

15:11

was relatively easy to navigate own. I never

15:13

was concerned about anything that I published would

15:15

be and conference Manassas Carrillo article twenty three

15:17

will be more difficult to navigate you can

15:19

get away from that. the language is so

15:22

much broader the offenses ups and have so

15:24

much more varied and numerous. I.

15:26

Don't want the kind of sound kind of

15:28

arrogant a narcissistic enough to be loud as

15:30

you know that that I will be kind

15:33

of the me at risk that I'm sick

15:35

and definite compared to friends and colleagues and

15:37

uncle media but at the same time I

15:39

i do think for media and myself included

15:41

are much more at risk than we were

15:43

you know and vibrate for the so comes

15:45

first that that's just the congressman. Power.

15:49

Talking here and one ask you about the trial

15:51

of Jimmy Lie This is of course a big

15:53

National Security trial happening and Hong Kong this is

15:56

a newspaper publisher Jimmy Life is is on trial

15:58

for breaking the twenty twenty blocks. James

16:00

I guess how is this plan to the

16:02

context of Article Twenty Three? Well

16:05

as well as been charged under the

16:07

mustard. A lot to me lies facing

16:09

charges of of under their twenty lire

16:11

legislation. So. The decision in

16:13

that case which is lawyers believe is pre

16:15

and think that you know there's no way

16:17

that hill possibly win this case. The decision

16:20

in that has will have an effect on

16:22

our cul. Twenty three is applied because it

16:24

will be another pieces sedition case law and

16:26

oversee. Apple Daily was such a huge he's

16:28

paper or to people that worked for it

16:30

a lot of his they were. Yeah now

16:32

a lotta people have copies of Apple Daily.

16:34

Bam. You know kind of historic from ages

16:37

that they have a home which the government

16:39

has already warned could be deemed seditious. Another

16:41

thing we've learned from the Jimmy. Like trial

16:43

and some other not unscrew trials as

16:45

well is the degree to which these

16:47

laws can be applied retroactively. According to

16:49

legislation they aren't retroactive. The courts interpreted

16:51

them as such to say that you

16:54

can have a continuing a sense so

16:56

you can have an offense which was

16:58

technically began before the law came into

17:00

force of can be prosecuted back then

17:02

but is continuing and one of the

17:04

things I've said is the rent Seeking

17:06

the to me like cases he lobbied

17:08

for sanctions against Hong Kong by sanctions

17:10

the stone forth and therefore he is

17:12

continuing. To commit the recent events of hoping

17:15

to the sanctions even though when he's really

17:17

lobbied for them that wasn't illegal. Ah, I

17:20

mean, I'm in. This is kind of theoretical at

17:22

this point, but are there any known defenses for

17:24

someone who is charged under Article Twenty Three? There.

17:27

Is a public interest defense of sorts

17:29

under the law which in a coffin

17:31

as gonna pointed to and journalists express

17:33

concern. but it's it's quite narrowly written

17:35

in and it's something that will have

17:37

to see how that's interpreted in case

17:39

is going forwards. When it comes sedition,

17:41

the courts have already kind of ruled

17:43

that that can be applied very broadly

17:45

that thirty you don't need to be

17:47

i'm promoting violence or promoting another would

17:49

legalize to be convicted sedition. And so

17:51

you know, that is the type of

17:53

of the sense that a journalist might

17:55

have used in another. Jurisdiction Right

17:57

that you know? Find this column.

18:00

The dishes but it was not calling

18:02

for people to act illegally all to

18:04

do any violence. The courts have already

18:06

decided the government has endorsed the fact

18:08

that no, you don't need to be

18:10

coins violence, you can still be committees

18:12

addition just by saying something. So

18:14

can anything be done to soften the effects? Little.

18:17

This gets us to an interesting. Point.

18:21

Because. I. Was a i don't

18:23

really know her, her hands and and be.

18:26

There is you know to talk about how

18:28

broad this lloris I think there is an

18:30

accent which that were I to speculate and

18:32

to the kind of think of things that

18:35

can be done assessing route is kind of

18:37

speculate about things foreign countries might do in

18:39

response to this law that would potentially be

18:41

in contravention miles the last. I

18:44

can talk about some actions which have been

18:46

taken me a. Little upset about that. I'm like

18:48

what I guess we're what's been done in response.

18:51

And so the Us government sanctioned are

18:53

gong officials. Since the law comes forth

18:55

lot of government says authorities announced that

18:57

the Renaissance Them Human Rights concert old

18:59

announced it's the Us sanctions follow up

19:01

on a raft. The sanctions are imposed

19:03

from twenty on team for a ministers

19:05

your and twenty twenty. It's odd to

19:07

see how they already have any effect

19:09

them. They mostly kind of bob bunk

19:11

on officials who had no intention of

19:13

traveling to the Us from doing so.

19:15

And China is very defined. I mean

19:17

China does not respond well to Siamese

19:19

P countries respond. Well to sanctions that

19:22

china perfectly. He never got Caesar's as

19:24

western med lane as denounced the Universe

19:26

Foreign governments are trying to interfere in

19:28

Hong Kong internal affairs. Just

19:30

very. Lastly, her James I mean you've been in

19:33

Hong Kong for about a decade now at when

19:35

a you take a step back and and look

19:37

at these laws I guess what is the overall

19:39

impact of them on on on. The.

19:42

Hong Kong of today is incredibly different.

19:44

Ah, it's an ongoing that I moved

19:46

to in Twenty Fourteen. It's not just

19:48

the idea that there was a huge

19:50

civil society movement and Twenty Four the

19:53

me at that's when we had him

19:55

brother move and coming into Twenty Nineteen,

19:57

that the heat process than the elections.

20:00

The way the prices have gone away,

20:02

civil society is largely gone away. A

20:04

mall of see that is a huge

20:06

change. There's also a degree to which

20:08

the character of the city has changed

20:10

companies to be very optimistic place and

20:13

a place that was very vibrant and

20:15

people were passionate about. i'm changing the

20:17

city for the better on a lot

20:19

of that's saved away hundreds of thousands

20:21

of people of lust and those that

20:23

do remain have checked out politically or

20:26

are very pessimistic about the Cts and

20:28

Eight conceal often like a very. Oppressive

20:31

and depressing. Nice to be it. Seems.

20:35

Like you for taking the time to be. I

20:43

mean a parameter. Our. Interest

20:45

rates. Are

20:47

pretty scared? Or Madeleine white cells? Sutherland's

20:49

and Rachel be the mughal. David

20:52

Crosby. Adrian.

20:54

Found their senior producer and and so

20:56

of Agenda is our executive editor. Thanks

20:59

so much for listening and attacked It's.

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