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1:03

Earlier this week, the Israeli military

1:05

launched its invasion of Rafa. Rafa

1:17

has become home to more than

1:19

a million Palestinians, including hundreds of

1:21

thousands of internally displaced people. Now

1:24

they're on the move again. Israel

1:27

says it needs to enter Rafa because

1:29

it believes the city is the last

1:40

Hamas stronghold. While

1:45

the Israeli military headed to

1:47

Rafa, ceasefire negotiations were also

1:49

happening. There was a report

1:51

that seemed like progress had been made, but

1:54

now it appears the talks have ended for

1:56

the time being. Since

1:58

the start of the war. seven months ago,

2:01

almost 35,000 people

2:03

have been killed in Gaza, according to

2:05

the Gaza Health Ministry. Nearly

2:07

1,500 Israelis have also been killed,

2:10

the vast majority on October 7th.

2:13

And now, there are fears the death

2:15

toll could climb if there's a full

2:17

attack of Rafah. A

2:20

lot has happened in the last week. Tensions

2:22

are high, and there has been lots

2:24

of confusion. So

2:26

today, we're speaking with the

2:29

Blobes senior international correspondent, Mark

2:31

McKinnon. He'll help us

2:33

understand what we know about the Rafah invasion,

2:36

its connection to the ceasefire negotiations,

2:39

and where things might go from here. I'm

2:42

Mayna Karaman-Wilms, and this is the Decibel from

2:44

the Globe and Mail. Mark,

2:51

great to see you. Thanks for being here. Thank

2:53

you, Mayna. So we're talking on Thursday morning

2:55

here in Toronto, Thursday evening, where you are in

2:57

Jerusalem. And I wanted to start

3:00

off with the Israeli military offensive in Rafah. We've

3:02

been hearing a lot about that this week. What

3:04

exactly has happened? Well,

3:06

it's been a whirlwind week. It

3:09

started on the weekend. I think there was

3:11

a lot of optimism here and around the

3:13

region that some kind of ceasefire

3:15

agreement was nearby. That

3:17

would see Hamas release at least some of

3:19

the hostages that it's been holding since last

3:22

October, in exchange for a

3:25

period of a ceasefire, and that this would be a

3:27

multiple-stage fee. The ceasefire that would move us towards perhaps

3:29

the end of this conflict. Those

3:31

talks appear to have broken down. On Monday,

3:34

we had this whirlwind of activity where first

3:37

the Israelis began dropping leaflets and sending text

3:39

messages to people living in the eastern edge

3:41

of Rafah, the city of the south

3:43

of the Gaza Strip. That's really the last area

3:46

the Israeli military has not yet gone into. And

3:49

that seemed to prompt a sudden sort of awakening

3:52

from Hamas. They suddenly accepted the terms of a ceasefire.

3:54

We didn't know what those terms were. Since

3:57

then, we've seen Israel proceed with what

3:59

looks a lot... like a military incursion

4:01

into Rafah where more than

4:03

a million people have been gathered near the border

4:05

between Gaza and Egypt because it's the last place

4:07

to get aid, the last chance to get out

4:09

of the Gaza Strip. Yeah. Yeah.

4:12

We've been talking for months now about people kind of moving south

4:15

in Gaza towards Rafah and into Rafah. You

4:17

called it a military incursion, Mark.

4:20

What is that exactly? Is that a full-scale invasion or

4:22

is this something else? Well

4:24

right now, the concern,

4:26

what the United States in particular has been

4:29

trying to avoid is a full-on assault on

4:31

this city of Rafah, which before the war was about 200,000

4:33

people. I've been

4:36

there. It's a very crowded place with 200,000 people

4:38

in it. And

4:40

now we've got perhaps a million others who had come down

4:42

here. The United States has been

4:44

putting a lot of pressure on Israel to get

4:46

them not to launch a full-on

4:48

attack on the city of Rafah where it's

4:50

believed the last four really Hamas battalions are

4:53

ensconced. And so far we've

4:55

seen Israel going to the eastern edges of Rafah

4:57

after dropping these leaflets that I

5:00

mentioned and take over the Philadelphia corridor,

5:02

which is the border area between Rafah

5:04

and the Egyptian border. A

5:07

full-on assault appears imminent. It

5:09

hasn't necessarily begun. It's hard for us to

5:12

say exactly because there's not a lot

5:14

of independent reporting happening in the Gaza Strip

5:16

right now. But all indications

5:18

are that this is gathering steam. And

5:21

when you say it appears imminent, I

5:23

guess what is that based on? What are we seeing? Well,

5:26

there's certainly a lot of Air Force

5:28

activity that you can hear. We've

5:30

definitely seen Israeli tanks reaching the

5:33

Rafah crossing, which was the border crossing between

5:35

Gaza and Egypt, which has

5:37

been really the most important conduit for

5:40

humanitarian aid getting into Gaza. We

5:42

see videos of Israeli tanks massing just

5:44

on the eastern edge of the Gaza

5:46

Strip and the Israeli Defense Minister

5:48

today saying no outside pressure, even from our best

5:50

of friends is going to deter us from finishing

5:53

this operation. So all signs point to the

5:56

Battle of Rafah, which will be an extremely

5:58

difficult one for those people. living there being

6:00

right ahead of us. You

6:03

just mentioned humanitarian aid and we know that

6:05

the Rafa crossing was one of the main

6:07

arteries for aid into Gaza, right? So now

6:09

that it's closed, how is aid getting in?

6:13

It's not very much getting in at all is the

6:15

simple answer. It

6:17

has been the most important corridor for aid by

6:19

a long shot and a lot of the aid

6:21

that has been waiting, getting into the Gaza Strip,

6:23

waiting for Israeli approval to be allowed into the

6:25

Gaza Strip is piled up in

6:27

Egypt's Sinai Peninsula. That aid for now doesn't

6:29

seem like it's getting in anytime soon. There

6:32

are two other crossings into the Gaza Strip. One

6:34

is the Karim Phalom crossing in southern Israel. That

6:37

crossing has been closed since Sunday or

6:39

Monday when Hamas launched rockets in that

6:41

direction. They could have been targeting this massing

6:43

of Israeli troops on the end of the Gaza

6:45

Strip, which was right around the Karim Phalom crossing.

6:48

And then there's a third entry point, which is on the

6:50

very north of the strip called the Erez crossing, which is

6:53

where journalists like me and humanitarian workers used to cross. It

6:55

was more the pedestrian crossing, for

6:57

a much better term, to the strip previously.

6:59

You could walk through this sort of maze

7:02

of tunnels and cages to get into Gaza.

7:05

And that crossing, the

7:07

passenger terminal, which Hamas damaged

7:10

on the October 7th attacks, it's

7:14

not functioning if the Israelis have opened up sort of a

7:16

gap in the wall to allow for

7:18

some humanitarian aid from the north to come

7:21

in. And the north is where the

7:23

World Food Program has been warning about an imminent famine, or a

7:25

famine they say has begun. But

7:27

most of the aid, as I said, is now

7:29

south of Rafah, piled up in Egypt, and you

7:32

can't bring that suddenly around to the north. And

7:35

the Israeli government has challenged the use of the term

7:37

famine there, we should just say. They

7:40

don't agree that the blame for the slow pace of aid

7:42

delivery should fall on them. Let

7:44

me ask you about people in Rafah, though, Mark. For

7:47

months now, people in Gaza have been told

7:49

to go south towards Rafah, right, as the

7:51

Israeli military moved through the territory. So where

7:53

are the people who are in Rafah supposed

7:55

to go now that the military has actually

7:57

moved in there? Well,

8:00

the maps that they were dropping and these

8:02

leaflets that I referred to earlier gave two

8:04

exit routes. One was to sort of go

8:06

west towards an expanded humanitarian zone along the

8:09

coast. The other one was to go back

8:11

towards Khan Udes, which is just north of

8:13

Rafa. It's largely been reduced

8:15

to rubble by a battle there previously.

8:17

So people are leaving, those that can.

8:19

You've seen these videos of just

8:22

thousands of Palestinians walking, piling

8:24

into cars, getting on donkey

8:26

carts, heading just away. We

8:31

have a journalist in the Gaza Strip

8:33

who's been working for a long time.

8:35

He left Rafa actually a while ago

8:37

because he just said living in a tent in

8:40

those conditions was just so miserable.

8:42

As I said previously, you had an extra

8:44

million people basically arriving on this already very

8:47

crowded place. You had to live in tents.

8:49

You had to sort of live on humanitarian aid tents. He's gone back

8:52

to his home in the center of the

8:54

Gaza Strip. One time ago, I think a lot of people

8:56

are doing that and these homes are destroyed, but that's

8:58

what people are returning to is sort of buildings that have

9:00

been damaged by other battles because it's at least you're

9:02

in your home and away from the act of fighting,

9:05

which now feels better than being in a tent with

9:08

a battle ahead. I guess I'm wondering what it's like for

9:10

people on the ground there, right? Especially when we're

9:12

talking about access to things like healthcare, which is

9:14

so important. Over the last seven months, we've heard

9:16

a lot about how few hospitals are actually operating

9:18

in Gaza right now. What

9:21

is available to the people in Rafa? I guess those

9:23

who are leaving that area as well. I

9:26

had it laid out for me last week that there

9:28

were five remaining hospitals in the Gaza Strip, three of

9:30

which were in Rafa. One of those appears to have

9:33

closed down the last few days because the

9:35

Israelis ordered the staff and patients to

9:37

evacuate it. You're down

9:39

really to absolutely minimal

9:42

services for this group of

9:44

people where malnutrition is

9:46

rising, all sorts of sicknesses and

9:48

illnesses are spreading because of a lack of

9:50

sanitation in addition to people who

9:53

have been injured by the war. I spoke this

9:55

week to a midwife in the Gaza Strip

9:57

who was telling me how she's delivered. delivering

10:00

15 babies a day and she

10:03

has to send mothers and babies

10:05

home hours after they've given birth,

10:07

after these babies are born, because the hospital

10:09

can't keep them there. She said

10:12

she was sending babies home that had diarrhea, that

10:14

had fever from others who were suffering from malnutrition

10:17

because the pace of injured

10:19

and seriously wounded

10:21

people coming to these hospitals was such that you

10:23

couldn't let a woman and a baby

10:25

stay in the bed for a day.

10:27

After I wrote that article, another doctor wrote to me

10:29

and said, actually, your

10:31

article understated what was happening. We also have

10:34

two women delivering in the same bed. I

10:36

think that is the scale of what's going

10:38

on here. And speaking to Unrawa, the United

10:40

Nations agency, that was

10:43

the main aid implementer in the gaseous

10:45

drip, and they said earlier last week that it

10:47

was 800 people for every toilet in the gaseous

10:49

drip. And then a week later they wrote to

10:51

me and said, actually, please update that. It's 880

10:53

people now for toilets.

10:56

See if you can imagine just the sanitation,

10:58

how long you'd have to wait, and so you're

11:00

hearing all sorts of tales of just how

11:03

illness is spreading as a result of this on

11:05

top of all the other more

11:07

obvious sort of impacts

11:09

of the war. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that

11:11

sounds like really an impossible situation there. I would

11:14

imagine for women and girls who are already more

11:16

vulnerable in these kinds of situations, this is even

11:18

more acute. So when

11:20

you speak to people who are doctors who work on

11:22

the ground in the gaseous drip, they say the first

11:24

thing that women and girls ask for after a ceasefire,

11:27

of course, is dignity. And they say there

11:29

just simply is no dignity in the gaseous drip right

11:31

now. And you hear these

11:36

hard to fathom stories, including

11:38

I was told that women in

11:40

the camps, because there's

11:43

a sort of things like for

11:45

menstrual products, they're making pads out

11:47

of canvas tents. And there's a

11:49

spike in the number of urinary

11:51

tract infections, UTIs, because women are

11:53

avoiding eating and drinking. They don't

11:55

want to go line up

11:57

at these unsafe and unsanite toilets

12:01

that are all that remain in the camps

12:03

around Rafa. Mark,

12:06

what is Israel said about why it

12:08

decided to send tanks into Rafa this

12:10

week? So

12:13

the Israeli rationale is that if

12:15

a ceasefire happened right

12:17

now, Hamas would still be intact as

12:19

a political and military force in the

12:22

Gaza Strip. And the bottom line for

12:24

Israel is that there will

12:26

not be a return to the status quo

12:28

before October the 7th. Israel is

12:30

no longer too willing to tolerate an armed movement

12:34

capable of lobbying rockets and a city capable

12:36

of attacking its casualties in towns just

12:39

across the border. And they say if you had a deal

12:41

right now, if you just ended the fighting under the the

12:44

ceasefire terms that Hamas says it's accepted, you would

12:47

leave intact these four Hamas battalions, you would leave

12:49

intact Hamas political leadership who by and large have

12:51

not been found or if they've been

12:54

killed we don't know about it yet. And

12:56

therefore this whole situation could repeat itself.

12:58

So I think despite all the

13:00

outside pressure, the signals we're all getting and

13:03

I you know if Dr. Israeli government spokes

13:05

people this week is that they feel they

13:07

cannot stop right now that they need to

13:09

go into Rafa. And

13:11

when it comes to this decision Mark, like who

13:13

is actually making this call? Decisions

13:17

of this magnitude are made by a

13:20

three-person war cabinet. It's chaired by Mr.

13:22

Netanyahu, the Prime Minister of course, but

13:25

with two other people that are sort

13:28

of in the room, Mr. Netanyahu, Yovgulant

13:30

who is the defense minister, and

13:32

Betty Gantt who is a former army chief

13:34

of staff, former defense minister, and a political

13:37

rival of Mr. Netanyahu who's joined this war

13:39

cabinet. And both Mr. Gantt

13:41

and Mr. Gantt are former generals, people

13:43

with a lot of military experience, which

13:45

is something that Mr. Netanyahu has been a

13:47

political leader for a long time but he's never

13:49

commanded an army. I think it

13:51

would be fair to say that none of these three

13:54

men would be considered doves and we see that in

13:56

the decisions they're making right

13:58

now that they are empathetic. The security

14:00

needs as they perceive them of Israel,

14:02

the need to finish this operation, destroy

14:05

the remaining Hamas fighters over

14:07

the people in the streets

14:10

who are saying, please take a ceasefire.

14:15

We'll be back after this. This

14:20

podcast is sponsored by RAMP. Are you the

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14:35

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14:39

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14:41

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14:43

you cash back, real money in your

14:45

pocket. Plus, you control who spends what

14:48

with each vendor. And RAMP's software collects

14:50

and verifies receipts automatically, which means you'll

14:52

stop wasteful spending and close your books

14:54

in hours instead of days. That

14:57

means that you use RAMP at up to 5%

14:59

to their bottom line the first year. If

15:01

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15:03

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15:06

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15:12

Currents issued by Sutton Bag

15:14

and Celtic Bag members of

15:17

the IC terms and conditions

15:19

apply. Mark,

15:23

let's talk more about the ceasefire talks that

15:26

are happening here because the biggest

15:28

development was a statement from Hamas announcing

15:30

that it had accepted a deal on

15:32

Monday. What did they actually agree

15:34

to? Do we know? Hamas

15:37

said that it agreed to sort of a

15:40

multi-stage, a three-stage ceasefire, which would have seen

15:42

them release a certain number of the hostages

15:44

it's holding. The number that I've read is

15:46

33 in the first sort

15:48

of phase of the ceasefire exchange for an

15:51

end to the hostilities. There'd be a second phase where

15:53

they'd release more hostages and the Israelis would start to

15:56

pull back and then the third stage the ceasefire would

15:58

be all the hostages released. a

16:00

certain number of policies from Israeli prison. And

16:03

Hamas hoped this would be

16:05

the end of the war. And I

16:07

think that's where the real

16:09

break is between what Hamas wants and

16:12

what Israel wants. Israel

16:14

is willing to stop shooting

16:16

and to allow for the

16:18

release of hostages, of course.

16:21

What it is not willing to do is say, okay, then that's the

16:23

end of the war and allow Hamas

16:25

afterwards to come back to power. What Israel

16:27

is saying is, you know, we can have

16:29

a pause, but it's not the end. Israel

16:32

didn't accept that deal, right? So this is some of

16:34

the sticking points, then, I guess, in the negotiations. Yeah, so

16:37

the deal that Hamas, you know, sent out and said

16:39

this is what we've agreed to and which

16:42

briefly caused some excitement on this particular

16:44

inside Gaza and among the hostage families.

16:46

The understanding that we've had from foreign

16:48

diplomats is that it's not that different

16:51

from the one that the United States and Qatar

16:53

and Egypt are trying to nudge the two sides to. The

16:56

real sticking point is how long this deal would

16:58

be and what it means. Is it just a

17:00

pause or is it the end? Let

17:03

me ask you about the hostages as well, right? Because

17:05

we know Israel and Israelis really want to get the

17:07

hostages home. It's been more than seven months now. Do

17:10

we know what state the hostages are in or

17:13

even, I guess, how many are still alive? We

17:17

know that there are 132 Israelis

17:21

that are counted as

17:23

hostages and a rolling

17:27

count by the Haaretz newspaper suggests

17:29

that 37 of those are believed to be dead.

17:32

So we've seen a few videos which have been very impactful.

17:36

Israeli hostages sort of pleading to

17:38

their families, their government to

17:40

reach a ceasefire. Obviously, those would be recorded

17:42

under duress. You know,

17:44

the families of the hostages and

17:47

some of the ex-hostages who were released in

17:49

a November ceasefire together

17:52

a very potent political force here

17:55

pushing for the government of prime minister

17:57

Netanyahu to Prioritize getting...

18:00

How did it out alive over

18:02

all other political considerations? And that

18:04

said, despite. Even that the

18:06

political military leadership of Israel has this

18:08

that this other aim as well which

18:10

is different from us completely. And

18:13

and you know, in. When with the negotiations

18:15

are happening with hostages, it's usually Hamas is

18:17

demanding the release of Palestinian prisoners as well

18:20

who are in Israeli jails. What What do

18:22

we know about that? We.

18:25

Know that Us hostage releases buys

18:27

small have been part about. Exchange

18:29

has has released a ratio of

18:31

how seems to are in Israeli

18:33

jails as low as last time

18:35

I think of as to several

18:37

policy prisoners per is really hostage

18:39

release to factor most famous case

18:41

was good night's Sleep and Israeli

18:43

prisoner who is a long time

18:46

positive from awesome she was already

18:48

sixteen for more than a thousand

18:50

or policy has been released from

18:52

prison. What's most interesting thing here

18:54

is that the. Hamas has made a very

18:56

public to they have called for the release of.

18:59

Marwan Barghouti who is the most famous

19:01

Palestinian prisoners Israeli prisons and of figure

19:03

that many policy and think would be

19:05

a natural leader for them said he

19:08

be released and someone who has support

19:10

among both Hamas and Fatah the party

19:12

of hawthorne president muscle in the boss

19:14

of and whether or not he just

19:17

release will be a really interesting question

19:19

obviously Israeli government doesn't want. Are these

19:21

someone who's they have jailed for his

19:23

involvement in multiple murders and I don't

19:26

think Mr. Abbas even is that impressive

19:28

releasing someone. Is far far more popular than he

19:30

is. Mark If we take

19:32

a step back here, I guess look at

19:34

these two elements of the war that we've

19:36

been talking about, right? the military offensive and

19:38

Rafa and the ongoing ceasefire talks. The negotiations

19:41

but remake of the timing here. like the

19:43

fact that these are happening at the same

19:45

time. Definitely.

19:48

there's a connection there are when we have

19:50

this a ceasefire talks miss him just to

19:52

go on and on and on and and

19:54

with israel for the drop in those leaflets

19:56

ours eastern russia earlier this week it really

19:58

does seem like okay that's a mood say

20:00

to Hamas, we've got to make a deal now.

20:02

And then Hamas responded very quickly by saying, we've

20:04

agreed to a ceasefire,

20:07

as we've learned, not the one that Israel is interested

20:09

in. So definitely this is

20:11

a pressure tactic. The Israelis, I think,

20:14

were telling the Americans, certainly at the start of

20:16

this, that they were going into Rafah with the

20:18

intention of putting more pressure on

20:21

Hamas. Obviously, at some point, if

20:23

a full on offensive on Rafah

20:25

begins, it'll be very difficult to

20:27

stop that and ceasefire negotiations will

20:30

be over until the operation is.

20:33

There are a few minutes, Mark. I guess we

20:35

should look at the bigger picture here and some

20:37

of the other players, in particular the US, because

20:39

they have a big part in what's going on

20:42

here. How has the US reacted

20:44

to everything that's happened in the last week? Well,

20:47

there's a very important development just in the last 24 hours,

20:49

really, because it's only been confirmed in the last 24 hours,

20:52

that the United States, President Biden, has

20:55

held up the delivery of thousands

20:58

of bombs that were to be delivered

21:00

to the Israeli military because he

21:02

didn't want to see them used in a full-scale

21:04

operation in Rafah. And for the

21:06

United States, for any US president, to use

21:08

that kind of leverage on Israel is a

21:10

sign of the level of frustration the US

21:12

has with the Israeli government right now. The

21:15

sense that we're giving you all of this aid and

21:17

supporting you're not listening to us. There's

21:20

also this outside pressure from the International Criminal

21:22

Court, and we don't actually know what's going

21:24

on there, but Prime Minister Netanyahu has put

21:26

out a couple of tweets about

21:28

how the ICC has no

21:30

jurisdiction to charge senior

21:33

Israeli officials, and nothing the ICC

21:35

does will affect what Israel decides

21:37

to do to defend itself. The

21:39

reporting local media here is that they genuinely

21:41

fear that the ICC will press charges at

21:44

some point in the future against Mr. Netanyahu

21:46

and other Israeli leaders. It should be another

21:48

sign of just the

21:51

international community, which was once very supportive of

21:53

Israel at the start of this war, having

21:55

become concerned with its conduct. And then, of

21:57

course, there's the internal politics here in Israel,

21:59

where Mr. Netanyahu... Netanyahu is the head of a coalition

22:01

that relies on the support of far-right parties, it's

22:05

clear that Mr. Netanyahu at least has

22:07

to worry that he would lose his

22:09

government if he backed down now and

22:11

agreed to a ceasefire. Yeah, the

22:13

internal politics are really something that are quite important

22:15

to talk about too. Can I ask you a

22:17

little bit more about that, Mark? How else is

22:20

this playing out in terms of the pressures that

22:22

Netanyahu is facing? You

22:25

see these protests on one

22:27

side almost every night, both outside

22:29

his residence here in Jerusalem, outside

22:31

the Defense Ministry headquarters where his

22:33

war cabinet meets regularly, led

22:38

again by the hostages, the families of

22:40

the hostages, the released hostages, calling

22:42

for him to sort of prioritize bringing these

22:44

people home and that obviously has a lot

22:46

of impact here. And on the

22:48

other side he's got his coalition members who

22:51

are saying, you know, let's not just go

22:53

into Rafa, they're saying we should plan to

22:55

reoccupy the Gaza Strip, which Israel pulled its

22:57

soldiers and settlers out of in 2005, they

22:59

might maintain control of the airspace and the

23:01

water, and we should be building settlements in

23:03

the Gaza Strip again. This talks are the same to have

23:06

in the north, Israel should push

23:08

Hezbollah back from the northern

23:10

border with Israel and go into southern

23:12

Lebanon. And it's not just sort

23:14

of these extremist right-wing parties they're saying, that I've

23:17

had part of a day this week with Israeli

23:19

families who've been living for seven months in

23:22

internal exile really in hotel

23:24

rooms, waited because they were told to evacuate

23:26

the northern border zone because of the concern that the

23:29

war in Gaza, the second front could be opened

23:31

with Hezbollah out of the north. And

23:33

you know, seven months later there's still in this hotel room, so you ask

23:35

them, you know, do you want to go

23:37

home? They say, no, not until we fix that

23:39

situation, not until we feel safe

23:42

in our homes, we feel like that October 7th

23:44

can't happen in the north of Israel. So even

23:47

all the focus right now is on Gaza, on

23:49

resolving that situation, going to some kind of end

23:51

to that war with Hamas. There may yet be

23:53

another conflict ahead in the north with Hezbollah. Just

23:56

very lastly here, Mark, where do things go from

23:58

here? ceasefire and what happens

24:01

in Rafa in the coming days? Well,

24:04

I've been trying to talk to people

24:06

both on the Israeli political

24:08

scene and in the Palestinian

24:11

Authority about the day after. So

24:14

Mr. Biden has made it clear that his support

24:16

for Israel includes he'd like to see them after

24:19

the end of the war in Gaza be

24:21

included in sort of a regional security agreement

24:23

that would include Saudi Arabia, which has never

24:26

recognized Israel. And Saudi Arabia would recognize

24:28

Israel as a state. And part

24:30

of this process would involve the creation of a Palestinian

24:33

state at some point along the line. And

24:35

there's a sense on both sides that this

24:37

is the moment to try and change the

24:40

status quo. Not right now when this

24:42

war is happening, but afterwards, everybody recognizes

24:44

its status quo is dangerous. There's

24:47

also a real disillusionment with the current

24:49

leaders with Mr. Netanyahu, who is personally

24:51

ideologically a gangsta Palestinian state. Even if

24:53

he could be swayed as beholden to

24:55

this far-right government. On the Palestinian side,

24:57

how many times have you even heard

24:59

about Mahmoud Abbas from the Palestinian Authority

25:01

over the last seven months? They've been

25:03

sidelined. He's been quiet. He's seen

25:05

by his own people of being complacent. So it's just a

25:08

desperate need for new leaders on both

25:10

sides if Mr. Biden's idea is going

25:13

to be driven to somewhere good. Mark,

25:16

thank you so much for taking the time to be here. Thank

25:19

you. That's

25:24

it for today. I'm Mayneke Raman-Welds.

25:28

Our intern is Aja Soudar. Zura

25:30

Jabril joins us as a fellow

25:32

of Carleton University's Brooke Forbes Award.

25:35

Our producers are Madeline White,

25:37

Cheryl Sutherland, and Rachel Levy-McGlaughlin.

25:40

David Crosby edits the show. Adrian

25:43

Chung is our senior producer, and Angela

25:45

Pecenza is our executive editor. Thanks

25:48

so much for listening, and I'll talk to you soon. style,

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