0:00

Do you ever have to deal with chronically late employees

0:02

, people that just can't get to work or abide

0:04

by the standards you set ? Today , we

0:07

are gonna talk about how you should deal with that and

0:09

what kind of responses you can expect to get from

0:11

your team . Is this a private discussion ? A

0:13

public discussion ? How you should say

0:15

it ? What you should say ? We go deep

0:18

on all of it . You are listening

0:20

to the Dental Practice Heroes podcast , where

0:22

we create dental practices that are ran

0:24

and driven by the team , affording us

0:26

the freedom to practice less , stress

0:28

less and make more money . Hi

0:30

, I'm Paul Etcheson , author of two books

0:32

on dental practice management , dental coach

0:34

and owner of a $6 million group

0:37

practice in the south suburbs of Chicago . I

0:39

want to teach you how to create a team-driven practice

0:41

and achieve early financial freedom so

0:44

you can have more time to do whatever it is

0:46

that you love . Let's get started

0:48

. Hey

0:54

, what's up everybody ? Welcome back to the Dental Practice

0:56

Heroes podcast . I'm your host , dr Paul Etchison . I

0:58

am joined by my co-host

1:01

, dr Steven Markowitz and Dr Henry Ernst

1:03

, and we are tackling big

1:05

questions , big important stuff here and

1:08

today we are going to pick apart . Something

1:10

I think every practice struggles with

1:12

is how do we handle those

1:14

chronically late and chronically always

1:17

sick , always calling in employees ? How

1:19

do we approach this ? And I started

1:21

with Henry on the last one . I'm just going to shoot this

1:23

over to you , steve what do you do ?

1:28

All right , let's go . I think this is something every practice , not just dental practice

1:30

every business has to deal with , and it's really about what are

1:32

the expectations of the position . I'll

1:35

start with a story and this employee

1:37

that we had . This was a couple of years ago . I love

1:39

this guy . He worked at the front . He

1:41

was awesome . He was so

1:43

good to the patients and he was

1:45

awesome to the patients and the team fricking

1:47

hated him because he would

1:49

show up 25

1:51

, 40 minutes late every

1:53

single week and it would just go on

1:55

and I remember being like guys , he's

1:58

so awesome to the patients , we love him and

2:00

they just got tired and tired and I

2:02

remember the office manager at the time came

2:04

to me and said I can't do this anymore

2:07

. I cannot . This is getting to the point where

2:09

I know I'm going to have other people leave good

2:11

people leave because this person keeps

2:13

showing up late . I remember me , the

2:16

office manager and the employee sat down

2:18

and I said I know , you know

2:20

that you're late . I know you know

2:22

how much it affects

2:25

the team and affects the patients because

2:27

you're late and we can't

2:30

allow that to happen . So this is what we're going

2:32

to do the next time you

2:34

show up late is going to be the last

2:37

time that you show up to work . Not

2:45

because I want to be mean , but because I truly care about you and I know how important

2:47

this job is to you and I need you to be on time . Is

2:49

that understood ? Yes , and

2:52

then the very next week

2:54

he came to work 40

2:57

minutes late and didn't

2:59

even look at anyone , just

3:01

picked up his crap and left . Look

3:07

at anyone , just picked up his crap and left . I tell that story often to my team because

3:09

that's the level of expectations that we need to set for anyone

3:11

who's not meeting , even

3:14

if they're amazing at their job . If they're not meeting certain

3:16

expectations that are important enough that we

3:18

live by , then they

3:20

need to be so crystal clear that if they're not

3:22

meeting them , they walk away .

3:24

How long did you tolerate that , steve , before

3:28

you had that conversation , because I know it's hard

3:30

when we've got a performer .

3:32

I think I would do it a little differently now , but

3:34

probably longer than I should have , because he was

3:36

so good when he was there and

3:38

I didn't realize how much

3:40

it was negatively impacting the

3:42

rest of the team and it turned into

3:45

like when is he going to show up today ? It

3:47

turned into like the office

3:49

gossip let's talk about this and the

3:51

amount of effort that it took to talk about him

3:54

being late or not being late . We could have hired

3:56

, trained and got someone in place and they

3:58

would have been maybe not as good , but they would have

4:00

been really good at the job by then . So it's

4:02

just clarity and expectations . I'm sure that

4:04

we all have stories like that . I'd love to hear Henry

4:07

, because

4:09

he's had a zillion people walk through his door .

4:10

I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing , but no , it's

4:12

a great thing . First off is

4:14

the number one ability . No

4:19

matter how good you are at anything in the office , the number one ability is availability

4:22

. If

4:26

you show up late , that means you're telling everybody in the office that everybody

4:28

else's time doesn't matter . It's selfish . I feel like I should take

4:30

off these earbuds and grab my wife and have her

4:32

, because she knows I'm one of those types

4:34

where , like on a family vacation , I'm

4:37

the one who's there 10 minutes before this On

4:39

time to me is 10 minutes early . That's me

4:41

. So in the practice

4:43

, one thing that we've done over the years and I know this is a dirty

4:46

word sometimes in all the dental forms

4:48

and stuff like that our office does have a weekly

4:50

bonus . It's based on production

4:53

and it's done weekly , so it's I feel

4:55

like when you have a weekly bonus , people

4:57

look at it and one of the parameters

4:59

that we have on our bonus system is

5:01

, if you are like for

5:03

most of our days , we start at clock in

5:05

at 715 . 730

5:07

is when we start our patient day . 715

5:10

is when we expect all of our employees

5:12

to clock in . If you clock in at

5:14

716 , you

5:16

are not eligible for the bonus that week . You

5:19

don't get a bonus that week and for somebody

5:21

who makes $23

5:23

an hour or whatever , that looks like $150

5:26

a week is a lot of . So I

5:28

feel like that polices things a lot

5:30

right from the get-go . And

5:32

then if I run into a situation like you're talking

5:34

about , steve , it's simple , right , it's

5:36

a sit down . This is not acceptable

5:39

. These go against our core values of the office

5:41

. You're putting everybody else having to

5:43

do your work , that's it . If you

5:45

do this again , that's it . I don't care how good they

5:47

are , right , you have to have

5:49

the greater good of the rest of the team . It's

5:52

like cancer . Nobody ever wants a little bit of cancer

5:54

, right ? You don't want a little bit of cancer

5:56

in your staff . You got to cut it out and

5:58

make sure everybody else knows that

6:00

. That's an example and I think you said it before

6:03

, steve . Your team appreciated when you did that

6:05

for them and they probably hated you

6:07

when you were accepting that , because then

6:09

what happens ? Maybe another person's like

6:11

well , shoot that person's late . Maybe I should

6:13

be late . I want people to be

6:15

nervous that shoot . I need to get

6:17

there at 7.15 , or else

6:19

I'm not getting this bonus this week , and then

6:21

after that they're going to have to meet with me

6:23

, because I'm not going to have any

6:25

tolerance for that at all .

6:28

It takes that consistency and the courage

6:30

to nip that when it's small , so

6:32

like if we see things that don't

6:34

align with our values or how

6:36

we behave , having that discussion right

6:39

now and when it's a small

6:41

issue and being consistent with that will lead

6:43

to that no longer being tolerated

6:46

. It's when , just like what Henry said , we

6:48

let it go and then this

6:50

person thinks , oh , look what they can get away with , let me push

6:52

this . And now we have a

6:54

chronic issue in the office of everyone being

6:57

late . We set the standard of

6:59

what is acceptable and what's not . We have to have

7:01

the courage as the leader , as

7:03

the doctor , to say I

7:05

understand , but that behavior is not tolerable

7:07

.

7:08

John Taffer , I don't know

7:10

if you guys have seen Bar Rescue before . Have you guys

7:12

seen that show ?

7:13

Yeah .

7:17

So he actually wrote a book that I read about two years ago and it made so much sense to

7:19

me . I think the book is called the Power of Conflict . It's a quick read , but basically

7:21

the main premise that I get from that is in

7:23

any business , let's say , we walk

7:25

down the hallway and somebody's on their cell phone

7:27

in one of the rooms like an assistant , if

7:30

I just decide you know what , I just want

7:32

to go back to my room back there and go on the Internet or

7:34

talk to my wife , I'm just going to walk right

7:36

past that . The moment I walk past

7:38

that in that person's mind , I'm

7:40

accepting that , I'm saying that's fine

7:43

, it's okay , and from that point forward

7:45

they should always be able to do that . The second

7:47

thing , the thing that I should do , is I should

7:49

take the time and the effort to

7:51

correct that action right there and

7:53

right then , because the moment I correct

7:55

that action , I am telling

7:58

to that person and anybody

8:00

else that sees me this is not acceptable , it's

8:02

not good for the practice , we won't have it , and

8:05

that's what that book , the Power of Conflict , is Use

8:07

conflict . Conflict is a bad word a lot of times

8:09

, but sometimes conflict can be a good thing , right

8:12

, this is . I'm coming in there , I'm explaining

8:14

to you why and I'm not accepting it . And this

8:16

is the same thing that goes with a late person . Set

8:18

an example for the entire practice , because

8:21

we talk about growing an empire

8:23

, right , growing five , six , seven , eight

8:25

practices creating a lifestyle where

8:27

you're more free . Well , you know what ? If

8:29

you have cancers running around , that's

8:31

not going to allow that to happen .

8:33

Yeah , and the thing that comes to mind for me is when this has

8:35

happened in my practice career . This

8:38

tends to take up a lot of the

8:40

bandwidth of everybody

8:42

that is involved with it and it's

8:45

just consuming and it's like gosh

8:47

, if they could just get here on time , we

8:49

would have so much more time to talk about more useful

8:51

things other than this person not showing up on

8:53

time . But I've been guilty of tolerating

8:55

it very long , especially in these past three years

8:58

where it's been a little bit hard to hire and

9:00

I have accepted that lateness versus

9:02

having an empty seat would put me in really

9:04

big trouble . But we have been better about

9:07

that and we're a lot faster to do it . But damn

9:09

, it's every time it happens . It's just like why can't you just

9:11

get here ? Please just get here , make

9:13

this easy .

9:14

It's the quote what you permit , you promote . It's

9:16

on us to set

9:18

the expectations , and we can do it in a caring

9:20

, loving way . I don't think it benefits anyone

9:22

, when someone shows up late , to start

9:25

screaming at the person and calling them an idiot

9:27

or telling them , like what the hell's wrong with you for

9:29

not showing up on time . We can set expectations

9:31

and doing it in a caring way . The

9:38

team needs to know and the individual even more so . The individual who's late needs to know , like how

9:40

does what your behavior impact your team ? How does it impact our patients ? How does it impact

9:42

what we're trying to do and all of those

9:44

things that we're trying to do ? We can't do it when

9:46

you're not here . If they understand

9:49

that , then they're more willing to

9:51

change their behavior and

9:53

then we just need to have the courage to have the conversation

9:55

.

9:56

I think that's a valid thing to talk about when you're talking

9:58

to the whole team as a whole , saying guys , I

10:00

know things come up , I know some days we've

10:03

got to be somewhere else , but just know

10:05

that when we're not here it makes it all

10:07

that much harder for everybody else who works here and

10:09

we are a team and we want to take care of each

10:11

other , so please try to do your best to get

10:13

here .

10:14

It's kind of like I always say whenever I'm going to tell somebody

10:16

or correct somebody , always give them the why

10:19

, why when you're not here , John

10:21

, somebody else has to take up your slack . When

10:23

you're not here on time , it sets a bad

10:25

example for the rest of the team when you're

10:27

not here , so-and-so . Can we please make

10:29

the commitment to show up on time

10:32

at the designated time ? Will you commit to

10:34

that Right ? Nobody can ever

10:36

say hey , that was very confrontational

10:38

, that was very belittling . No , I'm telling

10:40

you the why . I'm telling you to please correspond

10:43

to what we're asking for you to do , and

10:45

that's it right .

10:46

Do you have that conversation in private ?

10:51

Is that a private conversation ? That's a public conversation . No , I hope

10:53

people walk by and hear it . I hope , because

10:55

then they know that , hey , he's saying

10:57

something about being late . I shouldn't

10:59

be late either , or else . I'm going to be that next one .

11:02

Does that ever create any animosity

11:04

or distrust from the

11:06

other people on the team ? We have our first

11:08

argument , Henry . We've never had one before , so can

11:11

we have our first one ?

11:13

And there's nothing more public than this . I'm

11:16

talking about the operatory

11:18

doors open . I'm having this conversation in an

11:20

operatory , for example , and I've decided

11:22

mentally I'm not shutting the doors to the operatory and

11:25

I'm not saying it loud , so

11:27

it's like , if somebody happens to hear it , this

11:29

is what I'm getting at . Somebody happens to hear it

11:31

, I'm fine with it , right ? If

11:33

I'm having a conversation about being

11:35

late , I don't think that's very personal

11:38

, it's just , it's a procedural thing . You

11:44

weren't here . This is why it's important . If it was something like somebody did something

11:47

more egregious or something very personal , that's a whole different

11:49

animal . I'm talking about this

11:51

specific example of being late and

11:53

I'm just having the conversation of saying why

11:55

I'm leaving the doors open and

11:57

I'm just . I'm not being loud , but if somebody happens to hear

11:59

it , I'm all for it .

12:01

I like that . I take a slightly different approach in

12:03

that I have that conversation

12:05

in private but I make them apologize

12:08

publicly If someone is

12:10

constantly late and we had that discussion

12:12

, or not even constantly . If someone's late and

12:15

it affected the team , we're going to have that conversation

12:17

in private . But I need the team to know that

12:19

that conversation was had . So they're

12:21

going to go to their coworkers , to their teammates

12:23

, and say guys , I know I was late today , I'm

12:26

sorry , and by them apologizing

12:28

, everyone else there knows . Oh

12:35

, their manager or Dr Mark or someone spoke to that person today because that's what led to this apology

12:37

. I think an apology and a recognition of the misbehavior to the

12:39

people that were affected is important

12:41

to correcting that behavior as well .

12:43

That's cool . Let me go another . Could somebody

12:45

be like ? I feel like I'm in elementary school now

12:47

, Like doctors making me apologize

12:49

and now I'm PO'd because they made me

12:51

, they belittled me .

12:52

A thousand percent , but then show up on time

12:55

Like that's .

12:55

Exactly . Yeah , I think we're both saying the same thing

12:58

. We want people to show up and we want some

13:00

kind of process to make that happen .

13:02

Which is amazing , because I showed up late to this recording

13:04

.

13:09

So this is my public apologizing . I want people to show up without me having to say anything . I

13:11

see like both sides of it because I typically have these in private

13:14

and I do not force an apology . But you

13:16

know what ? I kind of tell somebody that the conversation

13:18

happened and let the gossip train take it over . But

13:20

it's like I would be worried

13:22

about that whole safety thing calling somebody

13:24

out and anytime I have called

13:27

anybody out on anything , even when I was just

13:29

kidding and I meant it as a joke , especially

13:32

like in a meeting . It has not

13:34

gone well and it has resulted in

13:36

people crying . But I love the idea

13:38

of doing it publicly so people can see , because it sets a

13:40

standard . It's hard to walk that line . That's a tough

13:42

line to walk , like we're had to do it public or private .

13:44

As long as you've created enough safety with

13:47

your team , you can do it anyway . There's no

13:49

wrong way , true .

13:50

Yeah , I know that the way that

13:52

I'm going to present it is going to be a respectful

13:55

way . It's going to be a way that's positive

13:57

, even though it's a negative thing .

13:59

So I'm not hiding anything right .

14:01

Sometimes I close doors like what is he saying

14:03

, what's going on ? And somebody can say he

14:05

said this . And I actually sometimes will

14:07

do that , even while I'll grab another teammate

14:09

, a trusted teammate , and I'll say listen

14:11

, I'm bringing in so-and-so so everybody

14:14

understands what I'm saying and nobody can misconstrue

14:16

my words here . And sometimes I'll do it

14:18

that way . I'm sure we all do that when we fire

14:20

somebody , correct ? Yeah

14:22

, right . So sometimes it's that

14:24

mentality , like I'm not hiding anything , I'm

14:27

not being loud , I'm being respectful , but

14:29

I'm just saying it here and if somebody happens to hear

14:31

it , so be it .

14:32

Most of the time people don't hear it . I think

14:34

that's a good point . And now that I think about it , there

14:36

are definitely times where , depending

14:38

on the person who's who I'm trying to I don't

14:41

want to say reprimand , but discuss some

14:43

behaviors with it can be as simple

14:45

as like let's have a simple conversation inside

14:47

the operatory with the doors open . I'm thinking

14:49

here as , like the person who's chronically late

14:51

. How do we get them to change

14:53

behavior when it gets to that level ? I do

14:55

like to have those conversations privately

14:57

and make sure that I'm creating

14:59

as much safety in

15:02

the conversation as possible .

15:03

I'm curious to hear what you guys think about this . Is that I'm

15:05

thinking about people that I've had to talk to about

15:07

this ? You guys think about this

15:10

is that I'm thinking about people that I've had to talk to about this and

15:16

I would say my success rate on that ? They improved their behavior . I got to say it's nearly zero . I would

15:18

say every single person I've had to have this conversation with eventually was fired

15:20

. It has never changed .

15:21

So you think changing behavior is easy

15:24

thing to do .

15:25

No , I don't think it happens

15:28

. You know it's like we're talking about this is how you handle

15:30

it , but I mean it's almost like stop prolonging

15:32

the inevitable . But I don't know if that's been your guys

15:34

experience as well . I have not had . Yeah

15:36

.

15:36

How do we feel about I'm going to do a little topsy

15:38

turvy here how do we feel about somebody coming for

15:40

a job interview and the first time they

15:43

come they're 30 minutes late ? No , do

15:45

you automatically just say you know what ? They should

15:47

be on their best behavior right now , and if

15:49

they're already 30 minutes , I'm not even going to move forward , I'm done

15:52

. Is that what you guys do ?

15:53

You know what , this day and age , I would still allow it if they

15:56

had a good excuse . No , you would not .

15:58

Get out of here . Yes , I would . Yeah , I'm desperate

16:00

. He would yeah .

16:04

It and everything it depends . But then if that turned out

16:06

badly you'd be looking back to that interview

16:08

day going damn it . I should have known .

16:10

How did I not know ? Of course , it's going to turn out badly . I

16:12

think , as the leader in the office , though , we

16:14

need to lead with patience and the

16:17

more patient that we can be and sometimes our

16:19

team doesn't understand that fully

16:21

that we're going to give people the

16:23

benefit of the doubt and maybe not the job

16:25

interview , but when they're part of the team , we're going

16:27

to be patient with them , we're going to give them opportunities

16:29

, but we still need to be crystal

16:31

clear , and we need to be setting

16:33

the expectations and not letting them skate

16:36

by with things that don't align with

16:38

who we are .

16:39

I think the moral of the story of this whole conversation

16:42

is that you get what you tolerate and that when

16:44

you tolerate things , you lower the bar for the

16:46

entire team . It needs to be addressed , and

16:52

I think that's where we , as dental practice owners , we screw up . We brush it under the rug

16:54

and hope it goes away , and in my experience , it never goes away . It just gets

16:56

worse and worse .

16:57

Yeah , as long as we have the courage to be consistent , we're

16:59

going to be fine .

17:00

Yeah , all right , I think we could put a period on that . Anything

17:02

you want to add to that , henry , before we go ?

17:04

I totally .