0:03

Heritage buildings are supposed to be

0:05

our most iconic and significant, and

0:07

that's why they're protected. But

0:10

are we saving dilapidated architecture at

0:12

the expense of infrastructure we actually

0:14

need? One of Altiero's

0:16

iconic historic buildings is costing taxpayers

0:19

more than $2 million a year

0:21

while it sits empty and in

0:23

disrepair. A heritage building in Auckland is

0:25

falling into a state of disrepair and locals want

0:27

to change the law to save it. Once

0:30

a hub of the community, Auckland's

0:33

Bayswater Boating Club now stands battered

0:35

and broken. A gothic wreck

0:37

or a Christchurch icon that needs to

0:39

be restored no matter the cost. The

0:42

Christchurch Cathedral Reinstatement Trust says the cost

0:44

of restoring the quake-hit cathedral has jumped

0:46

by over $100 million to $248 million.

0:51

The Bluff Western Food Festival was

0:53

cancelled this year after this heritage-listed

0:56

building was to plead dangerous. The

1:24

Gordon Wilson Flats in Wellington Central has

1:26

long been described as a stain on

1:28

the city. Now there

1:31

might be a loophole to sort out what to do

1:33

with some of the worst. And that

1:35

has passed. The City Council

1:37

voted to scrap the heritage protection.

1:39

It's certainly devoted opinion among city

1:41

residents. It feels a bit vindictive

1:43

to basically strip back heritage listings

1:46

when you don't need to. It

1:49

feels like revenge, frankly. We have to

1:51

have a really serious conversation about heritage protections

1:53

in this country because I think it's gone

1:55

way too far. I mean, we've got an

1:57

old fuel tank that's being protected in Miramar.

2:00

It's just ridiculous. Kia

2:02

ora, I'm Tom Kitchen and today

2:04

on The D-Sound, Heritage Protections in

2:07

New Zealand. Where's the

2:09

balance between saving our history and building

2:11

our future? Bill

2:14

Mackay is a senior lecturer of

2:16

Architecture and Planning at Auckland University.

2:19

He's going to start us with the

2:21

basics. Firstly, what actually is a

2:23

heritage building? A heritage building

2:25

could be any building that we

2:27

deem to be worthy of saving.

2:30

People often think there must be some

2:32

sort of time limit

2:34

in there. It must be 25 years

2:37

old or whatever, but it

2:39

can be anything. Who decides

2:41

what exactly is a heritage building?

2:43

So there's basically two ways that

2:45

this happens. One is what used

2:48

to be called the historic places

2:50

trust and is now called Heritage

2:52

New Zealand. They are

2:54

listing buildings all over the

2:56

country. And then you

2:59

also have councils coming up with their

3:01

own heritage building lists as well. People

3:04

often think if it's got Heritage

3:07

New Zealand listing, that's

3:09

what's going to stop it

3:11

from being demolished or radically

3:13

altered or something like that.

3:15

But no, it's the council

3:17

listing that's the important one

3:20

there. What makes a heritage

3:22

building listing? Is

3:24

it the iconicness of it, the architecture, where

3:26

it is? It's a

3:28

whole range of things and the

3:30

assessment of these things is quite

3:33

interesting to have a look at because

3:36

it could be for the merits of the

3:38

building or it could be for

3:40

what happens there. There

3:43

is a distinction between

3:45

historic and

3:47

heritage. Heritage tends to

3:49

be a little bit more to

3:52

do with issues such as the

3:55

architectural merits of the building

3:58

or the technology used. in

4:00

a bit of technology in there, the

4:02

first lifts in the building in

4:04

New Zealand, something like that. It

4:06

can vary quite a bit and

4:08

then I often think that

4:11

particularly when we're talking about more

4:13

modern buildings that we

4:15

bang on about, people

4:18

like me bang on about the

4:20

aesthetics and the architectural merits but

4:22

everyone's got their own opinions on

4:24

that. I think we could focus

4:26

a bit more on communicating why

4:28

buildings are significant. Gordon

4:31

Wilson Flats for instance, the

4:33

Dixon Street Flats. If

4:36

you were a widow or a

4:38

single soldier, disabled soldier

4:41

or something like that, you

4:44

often lived in an apartment building

4:46

that the first Labour government had

4:49

built. That was your state house.

4:52

You didn't necessarily, you didn't generally

4:54

live in one of the little

4:56

suburban houses that we're all quite

4:58

fond of. If we told the

5:00

stories better about the people

5:03

who were living in these buildings, I'd

5:05

say people would appreciate the heritage of

5:07

them a little bit more. But is

5:09

it hard to get a listing in

5:11

the first place? Like

5:14

who applies for us and how

5:16

does it work? Generally,

5:18

people who are not the building owners

5:21

who are applying for it,

5:24

people making heritage assessments, council

5:26

officers making heritage assessments or

5:30

historic places in New Zealand. Because

5:34

the council heritage rating

5:37

is the significant one,

5:40

often you get people saying, heritage

5:44

in New Zealand think this building is very important,

5:46

why is it not on the council list? What

5:49

can't you do with a heritage

5:51

building? What are the restrictions on

5:53

it? So number

5:55

one would be that you can't

5:57

demolish it But this often leads to a

5:59

very important. To add demolition by

6:01

Nick leaked Ah, there was

6:04

a certain period of time

6:06

and which unique politics. And

6:09

Oakland they've got a ah a

6:11

former asylum on the site see

6:13

it and big building that you

6:15

can see from point shibboleths and

6:17

day where it's i thing to

6:19

that gun type of test strips

6:21

at the time and I spoke

6:24

to them about it. made us

6:26

if we can't afford to do

6:28

anything and you can see cracks.

6:30

Appearing in buildings in that sense. says.

6:33

Susan They a few cracks appearing

6:35

in Wellington many of it's heritage

6:37

buildings. Ah a missed. The.

6:39

Incense those Golden Wilson slats

6:41

they considered historically significant. Stick

6:43

on see a rare example

6:45

of nineteen sixties high rise

6:47

state housing that they are

6:49

and disrupt he yes, they

6:51

were evacuated a hurry twelve

6:53

years ago and have stood

6:55

empty since. You're. In

6:57

Goalie, the posts council reporter has

7:00

been covering the saga. Out

7:02

my window right now I can say them senate pretty

7:04

prominent they have a look a lot of the said

7:06

eat has a kind of on. A Hill the

7:08

basically a gigantic blog post modernist

7:10

apartments. They are boarded up there

7:13

covered in graffiti ah you can't

7:15

go in there is the building

7:17

is is is quite crime they

7:19

very visible from a lot of

7:21

parts of the city. The land

7:23

owned by. The university but basically

7:25

because of the here is less. Staying

7:28

and kind of the expense that would add

7:30

to the earthquakes ring thing that's required they

7:32

haven't wanted to go and ends to them.

7:34

Operates and like that. Ends the

7:36

ideal situation be to demolish some

7:39

that of that's what many people

7:41

say but because it's yours is

7:43

listening. That can't be done. That's

7:47

right, yeah exists except. Now

7:49

the council has moved a motion

7:51

to delist them and the As

7:53

pass. Sites there was a vote

7:56

recently ah but so has to be

7:58

approved by the minister as. Right

8:00

to tell me exactly we're We're on the

8:02

prices near. That's right, So. This

8:04

is all part of the council

8:06

votes on intensification. So policies like

8:09

the Nps Uday. What does it

8:11

mean? Sorry. That national policy statement

8:13

on urban developments. Basically it required

8:15

council to allow lot more apartments

8:17

and it was also the medium

8:19

density residential standards which allowed a

8:21

lot more townhouses and so while

8:23

those the going through there was

8:25

a special process of the council

8:27

could use where it could basically

8:29

accelerate the usual are am A.

8:32

Processes so it's the resource management.

8:34

x forces you just so it.

8:36

It's called a Sauce tracks process.

8:39

And it's a lot quicker than the usual. Resource.

8:42

Management X process that the council

8:44

would have to go through to

8:46

make these kind of changes in.

8:48

there are a lot of changes

8:50

that the council voted through. As

8:52

a part of that, I'm like

8:54

a lot more Basically.allowing houses to

8:56

go higher to build apartment blocks,

8:58

townhouses, Where there are, currently you

9:00

know, just jealous, essentially sold and

9:02

pot is. There are no appeals

9:04

to the environment cause on. What

9:06

the council voted through and part

9:08

of what they decided to do

9:11

was to remove team. Here says

9:13

listings from Wellington buildings where the

9:15

owners. Of those buildings had asked

9:17

for the here it is Listening

9:19

to be removed and the one

9:21

of these buildings as the Golden

9:23

Wilson's Let's Rights. But

9:25

there are few others didn't want to. Some of the other team.

9:27

Was the one of them was the

9:30

robot Sound building at the University, another

9:32

one owned by the university. that's the

9:34

kind of big i'm red brick building

9:36

I think. never concerns and him as

9:38

getting to come to do maintenance on

9:40

that building. Some of them were little

9:43

bit wacky like there was the there

9:45

was a Giants I guess. Storage tanks

9:47

which used to be. The California Garden

9:49

Center and Miramar which had been

9:51

nominated for the here's here's it's

9:53

and council decided that didn't actually

9:55

have enough merit to go on

9:57

the hairs it's list. They was

9:59

the. The knowing don't have what

10:01

we waiting on at the moment is

10:03

for housing Minister Chris Bishops make his

10:06

decision on the plan and once he

10:08

does that. All. Of these changes

10:10

voted through by the council. Ah

10:13

could be made official, but he could

10:15

decide. Actually we do want to preserve

10:17

his heritage buildings and keep them on

10:19

the list as he wanted. When does

10:21

he have to make that decision by

10:23

a blaze It said it will be

10:25

this month in the legislation that quite

10:27

flexible. I think it's basically at his

10:29

discretion. What are we hearing from last

10:32

week was the most recent time I

10:34

got a point from. Him about heritage

10:36

and he said he didn't think

10:38

cities should be museums. So

10:40

that's. I guess where his hit

10:42

his at at the moment. We kind

10:44

of can't get anything more specific at

10:46

this point, because while he's considering that,

10:48

he's not allowed to say exactly what

10:50

he's gonna do. So

10:52

with zero loophole in the law

10:55

as it right that allows. The.

10:58

But he chewed demolition of these years insistence.

11:00

that kind of as a loophole here. So

11:03

current. So normally under the process

11:05

we're here is addressing to nominated

11:07

and they go through the council.

11:09

Normally the council's decision on them

11:11

ten be appealed to the environment

11:14

caught and that's what happened with

11:16

the Gordon Wilson's Let's. This. News

11:18

report was from twenty seven saying. The

11:20

Hair Cells Victoria University as gay

11:22

thing about the heritage that it's

11:24

of a derelict abandoned block of

11:26

flats and winning some last week.

11:28

The Environment course rules against removing

11:30

the heritage status of the Gordon

11:32

Wilson says was would have allowed

11:34

the university to demolish them to

11:36

make way for modern student housing.

11:38

The council had voted to remove

11:40

it from. The heritage list. So basically

11:42

exactly what lived on the same except

11:44

that time it got appealed to the

11:47

environment caught the environment court overturned the

11:49

council decision and so what's different? The

11:51

saw him so. This. Is all tied

11:53

again to those those roles of allowing

11:55

more housing and sissies and libel passed

11:57

a law which said council has to

11:59

update. The plan on the this. Fast.

12:02

Tracked process. And as a part

12:04

of that know, appeals to the Environment

12:06

Court are allowed inside the Council's. Kind of

12:08

figured out that they can actually look at. Hear

12:10

such listings as well as housing as a

12:12

part of that process. Demolishing these two

12:14

buildings especially the Gordon Wilson slats, it

12:17

sounds like it's going to change landscape

12:19

of women's and significantly on a i

12:21

would say like not all of them

12:23

I got going to be demolished. That's

12:25

not necessarily what's happening. Like some

12:27

of them like the Foreigner A apartments

12:29

were to just then kind of art

12:31

deco apartment block along Oriental bay and

12:33

one of the reasons. They.

12:35

Voted to remove the here's the thing with

12:37

because. It's just really hard for

12:40

owners of that building to do basic

12:42

maintenance like if they wanted. double glazed

12:44

windows will do anything like that. They

12:47

have to go through quite an extensive

12:49

resource consent process which is expensive takes

12:51

a long time. He kind of com

12:53

renovate. Your property. as you normally would

12:56

if you're a private owner of a

12:58

heritage building. what do you think for

13:00

that? Wellington might be a poster child

13:02

for these kinds of issues that seems

13:04

to be popping up more than other

13:06

place in the country. Really?

13:08

The main reason is we have

13:11

all of these earthquakes strengthening did

13:13

lines coming up for the buildings

13:15

and so that kind of pushes

13:17

owners of here says buildings into

13:19

a position where they have to

13:21

consider really significant. Structural work.

13:24

On the building. I think that kind

13:26

of makes them realize how restrictive the

13:28

heritage list thing is. I think in

13:30

other cities where they don't have these

13:32

did lines coming up so soon using

13:34

kind of said on a building and

13:36

you don't have to do extensive maintenance,

13:38

you don't. Have to. Totally yeah. Got a

13:40

building to put and. Steel beams so

13:42

you're not kind of clashing against

13:44

the heritage list same as much

13:46

as you are and Wellington with

13:48

requires an earthquake prone city. When

13:51

of these did lives has. And. So

13:53

the first, lots of buildings are coming

13:55

up. and twenty Twenty Seven and Wellington.

13:57

It's a National Robot arm. It's. Don

14:00

Five Mack Risk. So I think other

14:02

areas like Oakland will be, you know,

14:04

kind of fifteen years after Wellington. Gets

14:07

another example of a derelict. Here's saw

14:09

it was the two months building. As

14:12

the third blow for the city's

14:14

heritage buildings and as many years

14:16

following displays on I Will Smith

14:18

Strength and a suspicious fire is

14:20

Shelley Bay. That's. One way

14:22

that the heritage listening can be

14:24

removed as the building actually bends

14:26

down. But that was, you know,

14:28

another example of one of these

14:30

buildings that has just been sitting

14:32

there covered in graffiti. a bit

14:34

of an eyesore, you know that

14:36

was so earthquake unsafe. That if you

14:39

walked past said you had to walk through

14:41

this kind of shipping container walkway which was

14:43

very is Kobe and not for a nice

14:45

basically because they were concerned the building. Could

14:47

fall on you in an earthquake an

14:49

what's Eliza Some town hall and we're

14:51

that says. So. We haven't

14:53

heard much really sense since the major

14:56

cost law was approved. Which touch wood

14:58

should be enough to get the project's

15:00

done is what the council a sighing

15:03

because it was a. A

15:05

hundred and forty seven million dollar budget. Increase

15:07

they voted for? Yeah, but since then

15:09

we don't really know how it's tracking

15:11

him at as Usda work going on

15:13

there are you work is going on?

15:15

Yep, Yep. The council did consider briefly

15:17

last year they considered mothballing the projects.

15:19

I just kind of pausing work on

15:21

the I think just came to the

15:24

conclusion that they had already sunk about

15:26

two hundred million dollars into it. so

15:28

it wasn't going to be worse than

15:30

what do you think? other councils to

15:32

Moon Air and from what wellington some

15:34

here, I think they can learn that.

15:36

Maybe the here says less shouldn't be this

15:38

kind of thing where. Counselors

15:41

add to it and they never take

15:43

anything off, which that has tended to

15:45

be the. Approach and.

15:48

Like. Maybe to have a reevaluation

15:50

of the list on every.

15:53

Three. Years or something like that could

15:55

be a worthwhile thing The Council to

15:57

do. So other examples.

16:00

we're taking care to Spouting has worked

16:02

well. Is. Bill Mckagan.

16:05

Well. It's worked outstandingly well.

16:07

and small towns where they've

16:09

really built up. save tourists

16:11

space Now Napier see outstanding

16:14

example of them every year.

16:16

Thousands of people not here

16:18

to celebrate the And Six

16:20

era synthesizer. As the architecture.

16:22

But were some psyche Obama room

16:25

the eye and they've They've got

16:27

their whole steam punk thing happening

16:29

around the in the heritage buildings

16:31

now facing a strong second time.

16:34

Obama is Victorian era. here is

16:36

exclusively movements allies or something. the

16:38

smaller towns mountain burrow great how

16:40

they've all had say smaller one

16:43

story to story timber building, stand

16:45

up and see doing very well

16:47

and tourism. So. How can

16:49

we fix it when it's not working? Economist

16:52

Eric Cramped and recently Rice and Newsroom

16:54

The Council's and the government should give

16:56

Here's a China's Subsidize The value the

16:59

buildings provides on his could be free

17:01

to modify or demolish the building spots

17:03

could lose some or all of the

17:05

here says Climates Bell a Grace. I.

17:08

Think that's a good idea because

17:10

building owners with heritage buildings the

17:13

as they are they doing something

17:15

for society. So I sank said

17:17

subsidies all rights for what are

17:19

they doing society the of looking

17:22

after and maintaining heritage buildings before

17:24

us. Sorry that our streetscapes a

17:26

much nicer possessed a big problem

17:29

at the moment because people can

17:31

find that there is this the

17:33

save go the heritage buildings and

17:35

they say look just can't afford

17:38

to. Keep it up because they

17:40

can be more expensive to maintain

17:42

further recission. How can we justify

17:44

their timing of Modi homes? you

17:46

know, the ones in Wellington for

17:49

instance. It's how we just not

17:51

down and. Build. the more when

17:53

that they die or and sizes. Well.

17:55

You could make the same argument about

17:57

Ponson by the I Pump survey was.

18:00

Basically yeah my my wife's father lived

18:02

a year he grew up as he

18:04

can a is nice it's it's it's

18:07

against I put a bulldozer through all

18:09

those quotes modi old houses inputs debates

18:11

with quite a different and the truth

18:14

to that was the lowest and bungalows

18:16

and so serious now so is is

18:18

is cover yeah you to see it

18:21

changing perception of with of what we

18:23

got the in society happening over the

18:25

decades and I think that's also why

18:27

we had to be very careful about.

18:30

Tenths paying that much more

18:32

open minded about heritage. Also

18:34

as a society where a

18:36

very young society we as

18:38

we focus much more on

18:40

sport. For example in this

18:42

country is haven't we do

18:44

on the yeah that's so

18:46

In a when we have

18:48

a cost of living crisis

18:50

on very tight times it's

18:52

easy for us to say

18:55

mobile kept a nice to

18:57

haves like Out and Heritage

18:59

Spits history, heritage. See as

19:01

dear as important to our society.

19:04

As supporters is a perception

19:06

that heritage buildings the somehow

19:08

standing in the way of

19:10

progress and zero few and

19:12

far between in this country

19:14

compared to places like apps.

19:17

Melbourne or Sydney?

19:19

This some arguments

19:21

zits. While. He

19:24

worried about all these modernists.

19:26

Brutalism. Buildings and even

19:28

the older buildings that have come

19:30

place European settlers thoughts aren't though

19:33

my son crucial important buildings indigenous

19:35

students at we have sent we

19:37

just keep those and you know

19:39

every other totally we have. You

19:41

can pretty much say that oversees

19:43

all the other here. it's it's

19:45

building sets came after this. I

19:47

wouldn't agree that you can pretty

19:49

much say the will overseas. we're

19:51

own a very diverse society am

19:53

in our history is so Life

19:56

is a place. And it's often

19:58

not as cut and dried as

20:00

you kind of the empire on

20:02

the it's foreign know a meeting

20:05

houses are often thought of as

20:07

ancient buildings did not. They actually

20:09

happened. During. A

20:12

period of conflicts basically in the mid

20:15

nineteenth century, so a lot of those

20:17

are quite recent. We also see a

20:19

lot of them have actually been through

20:21

a few and can I since been

20:24

demolished, been rebuilt? I can think of

20:26

a foreign movie and take away he

20:28

takes the A is. Actually been

20:31

demolished them rebuild a couple of

20:33

times and relocated the couple of

20:35

times as well. So yes it's

20:37

and indigenous building, but it's also

20:39

crossing over very much. In terms

20:41

of and appropriating packing materials

20:43

and techniques and things like

20:45

that, This

20:48

this perception that your home as

20:50

your castle am old yo. A

20:52

few i'm in a building who

20:55

are where you in a property

20:57

should be up to do anything

20:59

set you want. We haven't done

21:01

that society since Babylon when we

21:04

lived together. We come up with

21:06

rogues and these rules. a seat

21:08

to is the activities of old

21:11

obsess including properties as well. So

21:13

it's actually sounds like a very

21:15

young Millenia old Am practice that

21:17

way. Have rules in relation to

21:19

help it was against in the city

21:22

and even then landscapes as well. As.

21:34

The days I was funded by our

21:36

ensued and indeed on A at the

21:38

Subside was engineered by the A Steak.

21:40

Both it was produced by Alex you

21:42

Muscle when Mcclure Independence M S thanks

21:44

to Build The Guy and even poorly

21:46

on some Kitchen Conquered! Yeah,