0:00

Kia ora, I'm Davina

0:02

Zima and today on

0:04

The Detail, what is

0:06

a GPS and why

0:08

are people mad about

0:16

the one that deals with transport? The

0:19

government has unveiled a $20 billion

0:22

transport plan which will see the

0:24

roads of National Significance Project revamped

0:26

with 15 new four-lane

0:28

highways to be built. Climate

0:31

change is no longer a strategic

0:33

priority under the government's new draft

0:36

policy statement on land transport. The

0:39

Transport Minister has also signalled today that

0:41

public transport fears could be about to

0:43

increase. The government is

0:45

defending its move to hike vehicle registration costs by

0:48

$50. The policy wasn't

0:50

signalled during the election campaign and Labor

0:52

says it's dishonest, claiming Nationals numbers don't

0:54

add up and motorists will now pay

0:56

the price. The

0:59

government is also shifting the focus of the

1:01

land transport fund. It will no longer pay

1:04

for walking and cycling projects, in fact those

1:06

projects are facing a funding slash. So

1:09

a GPS in this instance has nothing

1:11

to do with global positioning systems. It's

1:14

a government policy statement. You

1:16

should care about government policy statements as much as you

1:18

care about the budget because actually this is how the

1:20

things that you voted for and the things that you

1:22

like or don't like about the government, this is how

1:25

you get them. What we're getting

1:27

is roads, roads and

1:29

roads. $20 billion

1:31

worth over the next three years. Investing

1:38

in these corridors will make it easier for Kiwis to get to

1:40

work where they need to go and create

1:42

a more productive and resilient transport network.

1:45

As long as those Kiwis are using motorways to

1:47

get where they need to go. Because

1:50

in congested cities such as Auckland, the

1:52

irony is that the spending priorities will

1:54

do the opposite, in some

1:56

cases forcing traffic to a standstill during

1:58

peak times. The most pressing

2:00

need in Auckland is to develop

2:03

a really attractive public transport network.

2:05

There are significant cuts to spending

2:07

on rail that's concerned a few

2:10

people. Councils have

2:12

raised some concerns about it. Later

2:14

in the podcast, I'm going to talk

2:16

to the Herald's Simon Wilson about the

2:18

knock-on effect these funding decisions will have

2:20

on Auckland in particular. But

2:22

first, we'll look at exactly what

2:24

the GPS involves with the Herald's

2:27

Deputy Political Editor, Thomas Coughlin. It's

2:29

become more and more common recently to

2:32

split up the various parts of

2:34

the government into policy agencies and

2:36

delivery agencies. It's quite an

2:38

important split. So let's take transport. You

2:41

have the Ministry of Transport and then you've

2:43

got Waka Tahi Enditia which is the New

2:46

Zealand Transport Agency. Now if

2:48

I wanted to build a road and I was

2:51

the Transport Minister, I couldn't just call up Enditia

2:53

and say, build me that road. They

2:55

are the delivery agency. They are in charge

2:57

of building roads but the government policy statement

2:59

is the bit that sort of tells them

3:01

what sort of roads to build and where

3:03

because they are the delivery agency. If

3:06

I called up the Ministry of Transport and

3:08

said, build me a road, I also couldn't

3:10

do that because the Ministry of Transport despite

3:13

their name doesn't build roads. The

3:15

Ministry of Transport is the policy agency. So those

3:18

are my officials in Wellington. And

3:20

so the government policy statement is a way

3:22

of getting those two parts of your portfolio

3:25

to talk to each other. You've

3:27

got your policy people who think about how

3:30

you should do something and then your delivery

3:32

people who actually do it. Is

3:35

the budget policy statement, is that kind

3:38

of like the mother of all government

3:40

policy statements or is that another

3:42

completely separate, am I going completely left

3:44

field here? There's no piece of legislation

3:46

which is like, this is what a

3:48

government policy statement looks like. So

3:51

they all look a wee bit different. And

3:53

the budget policy statement comes out of the Public Finance

3:56

Act. The Budget Policy statement is

3:58

basically about signalling to the financial. The Markets

4:00

and signaling to New Zealanders this is how

4:02

big the budgets gonna be to the markets

4:04

compare themselves to buy Apple the did that

4:06

it's gonna have to be raised to pay

4:08

for everything and and you can says see

4:11

the say from priorities of the budget the

4:13

heat of Time because. It's generally.

4:15

Seem to be a bad thing to just

4:17

dump the budget on the marketsandmarkets get pretty

4:19

generates economy but want to lead people into

4:21

and senate or the budget policy statement does.

4:24

That I insist. How many are there

4:26

were east meets in the air transport

4:28

one. A nice is so how

4:30

many there are than the main ones talk

4:33

about as the tire abbreviated Gps. Ah, so

4:35

you the Gps government policies that no land

4:37

transport? That's a big one thing that most

4:39

people will have doubtless fits. Ministry of Transport

4:42

and the ministers to me and brown, I'm

4:44

I'm I'm getting together and telling what Qatar

4:46

he ended the I Want to Do I'm

4:48

We've also got a Gps on Housing and

4:51

Urban Development. So that's and Ministry of Housing

4:53

and Urban Development and surveillance of a new

4:55

ministry. Sit up by the last government. eine

4:57

kleine Aura hundred communities by the delivery. Agencies

5:00

I go out and build the houses side

5:02

minister of Housing Christmas it will get together

5:04

with his officials of insights. I'm deliver one

5:06

of a slave detective with has officials silence.

5:08

I want my housing policy to looks like

5:11

this and incline or will gone to at

5:13

the really big one was gonna happen the

5:15

next few months before June. Two seats as

5:17

the health government policy statement. This is going

5:20

to blow the others out of the would

5:22

I can be absolutely huge. This is part

5:24

of the health reforms that Labour did as

5:26

we for the health system. It spins that

5:28

twenty seven. Billion dollars a year as messes

5:31

the anti government budgets about one hundred and

5:33

twenty billion dollars a year. So this is

5:35

twenty seven billion events and so are the

5:37

menace of health centers. He is gonna get

5:39

a good of of health officials at the

5:41

Ministry of Health they are the policy agency

5:44

Steiger works out. of what

5:46

the priorities are going to be

5:48

in and healthcare live reduce y

5:50

times more community health brewhouse a

5:52

big one and say right these

5:54

my policy priorities his the twenty

5:56

seven billion dollars could spend every

5:58

year go out and deliver me

6:00

this health policy. With government

6:02

budgets done annually, government agencies essentially

6:05

have no funding certainty beyond those

6:07

365 days. Obviously,

6:10

ministers are unlikely to let them

6:12

just run out of money, but

6:14

a GPS gives further security because

6:17

they're a long-term plan. What

6:19

these government policy statements do is that they look

6:21

over a longer period of time. So

6:23

again, in land transport, a government

6:25

is required under the Land Transport Management Act

6:27

to publish a government policy statement at least

6:30

every three years. And

6:32

they look out over 10 years. They have a

6:34

10-year horizon. So it gives the transport system a

6:36

way of looking into the future and thinking, right,

6:39

this is the direction we're heading in. In

6:41

reality, these are done much more frequently

6:44

as governments change because ministers can't keep

6:46

their hands off the tools and they

6:48

want to constantly be changing things and deliver

6:50

the things that they want to do. So

6:52

in reality, we actually get land transport GPSs

6:54

every three years, basically. They're done every three

6:56

years. A 10-year plan that's often

6:59

redone every three years. That

7:01

doesn't quite add up. David Parker

7:03

delivered a draft GPS on transport

7:05

before the election. The new

7:07

government came in, ripped it up and started again and issued

7:10

a new one. So yeah, they changed with

7:12

governments, which is important that people voted for

7:14

a different direction and the new government is

7:17

entitled to deliver that direction. So it's a

7:19

way of balancing your democratic right to toss

7:21

the old lot out and get a new

7:23

lot in and change the policy. I

7:26

guess there is a real benefit and a policy

7:28

sense from having that long term horizon. They

7:30

all have slightly different horizons. I think the health

7:32

one is for three years. So the

7:34

health system gets three years to think about

7:37

what it can do. And I think it's really

7:39

important to do that. There are some benefits to

7:41

think, right, we've got a workforce

7:43

shortage. We have some mental health issues that are

7:46

coming through that we need to address through the

7:48

health system. So with that three-year horizon, I think,

7:50

right, let's start recruiting experts and

7:53

training people in those areas

7:55

and going for it. The

7:57

old budget process was criticized because, you know,

7:59

12 months. month is a really

8:01

short timeframe when you're dealing with $27 billion. Okay,

8:05

so government policy statements, they basically

8:07

give certainty to government agencies by

8:09

setting out the vision for what

8:12

that relevant sector will look like

8:14

for the next foreseeable future. Is

8:17

that correct? Yeah, and that's sort of

8:20

part of what they're designed to do. And

8:22

it also separates things out that there are

8:24

– this is sort of a probity

8:26

aspect, which is really important, I think, for

8:29

things like transport. And

8:31

that's really quite controversial. It's a big issue.

8:34

But traditionally you'd say, right, I want

8:36

to spend this amount of money on

8:38

roads and this amount of money on

8:40

public transport. I think I want to

8:42

address congestion in Auckland and

8:44

public transport issues in Wellington. And you'd

8:46

give officials a really high level view of what you wanted.

8:49

And then Wahekatahe would – the board would get

8:51

together and say, all right, well, these projects need

8:53

to be greenlit. We'll stall these projects because they

8:56

don't fit with your priorities in the GPS. We'll

8:58

do this, this and this. And that's really how it should work.

9:01

Recently, ministers have started putting

9:03

in a GPS. We

9:05

would like you to consider building this

9:08

specific road and this specific public transport

9:10

project. So you're really kind

9:12

of overstepping your boundaries by saying, me,

9:14

the minister, I campaigned on doing this

9:16

road and I would like you to

9:18

do it or else, basically. Some

9:21

cities like Auckland and Wellington get a

9:23

large piece of the investment pie, leaving

9:25

other towns maybe feeling a little left

9:27

out. And while it hasn't

9:30

become a problem in New Zealand yet,

9:32

Thomas says it could create an issue

9:34

called pork barrelling, where politicians funnel money

9:36

into electorates they want to win despite

9:39

having little or no economic value. You

9:42

know, your officials look at the benefit-cost

9:44

ratios of various projects. And

9:46

some of these electorally advantageous projects have

9:48

very low benefit-cost ratios. And so you're

9:50

plowing literally billions of dollars into projects

9:52

that really don't deliver much economic benefit

9:54

but are politically advantageous. And so it

9:56

sidelines officials who would actually say, well,

9:58

look, maybe we look at... doing some

10:00

of these projects which have higher benefit

10:03

cost ratios. Over the last

10:05

few years there's been a growing trend to

10:07

get people off roads and onto public transport.

10:10

The latest draft policy statement is light

10:12

on rail and bus priorities and heavy

10:14

on roads and that's led

10:16

to concerns that all the previous work

10:18

could be undone. And while

10:21

the average commuter may not have much

10:23

say, Coughlin expects local councils who have

10:25

expressed these worries will be listened to. The

10:28

way it's done is that you release a draft, so

10:30

the biggest person who gets to say is the minister

10:32

and their officials and then anyone

10:34

can get a say in it. So if you don't think it's

10:36

very good then you have the ability to

10:38

make a submission on it and tell them that you don't

10:40

think so. And in the case of the transport one, it's

10:43

consulted on just like other government policies

10:46

so it's a great democratic exercise of

10:48

giving feedback on something. And

10:50

how much influence does that public feedback

10:52

actually have on then the final statement?

10:55

Occasionally things change, often ministers have

10:57

a pretty good idea of what

10:59

they want. So then just

11:01

going back to when you say that anyone can

11:03

have a say in it, they can

11:05

have a say in it but it doesn't really

11:07

change much? No, it doesn't always

11:10

get listened to. But it's possible that if

11:12

you're quite important, again if you're the Mayor

11:14

of Auckland and you

11:16

have a view on the transport policy statement then

11:18

your view might be taken into account, particularly

11:21

if you come armed with some reasoning

11:23

as the Mayor of Auckland has done

11:25

about what it would do to condition

11:27

in Auckland. So yeah, it might be

11:30

possible that that would change. As

11:32

is often the case in public policy, the

11:34

more quote unquote important you are, the greater

11:36

influence you will say has, everyone has an

11:38

equal say but they're not equally listened to

11:40

I guess. Auckland possibly feels

11:42

like it's being targeted but that's partly

11:44

because it's over a third of the population

11:47

and it is the economic centre of the country. And

11:50

therefore Auckland has to function well and that

11:53

means its transport has to function well for

11:55

the country to function well. Simon

11:57

Wilson has been across the draft statement

11:59

for land transport. from the day it

12:02

was released last month. Nationwide, transport contributes

12:04

20% of carbon emissions, but in

12:06

Auckland it contributes 40%. So

12:08

it's a really big issue in this city. We

12:11

have clogged up roads, we have those emissions. We

12:14

have an unacceptably high road

12:16

safety record. And an example that I

12:18

think is relevant is that if you

12:20

think about New York City, New York

12:23

City has three million

12:25

more people than New Zealand and

12:28

it has a third left of the

12:30

road traffic deaths. And that ought to

12:32

be an unacceptable statistic for New Zealand.

12:35

He says our country has a

12:37

lethal combination of bad driver behaviour

12:39

and unsafe roads. The

12:41

last government was committed to improving the

12:43

latter in its Road to Zero safety

12:45

strategy, which included the installation

12:48

of median barriers on main highways.

12:51

The plan struggled to meet its targets though

12:53

and National has scrapped it, arguing

12:55

it's better to put money into building

12:57

roads of national significance. But roads

12:59

of national significance is

13:01

possibly the most expensive way you could

13:04

address the safety issue, where we've

13:06

got this much more efficient median barrier

13:08

approach that could continue to be rolled out.

13:10

Is it not a D, if you like,

13:12

in the GPS, the new GPS? The words

13:14

are there, we're going to do it in

13:16

a value for money way, but in practice,

13:18

there is no, it's not

13:20

clear at all, there's any intent to do it in the

13:22

real value for money way. I had a

13:25

look at the statement and there's

13:27

a lot of emphasis on roads,

13:29

roading new roads, roads of national

13:31

significance. What do you think

13:33

that this is about government's attention to

13:35

public transport and other options of moving

13:37

around the city, like walking and cycling?

13:39

So if we do look at Auckland for

13:41

a moment, there is a commitment to a

13:43

couple of very big public transport projects, they're

13:45

going to finish the city rail link, which

13:47

is the underground link that will make the

13:49

trains that we have much more efficient, double

13:51

their capacity. And that's great. They

13:54

can hardly not do it. It's, you know, the tunnels

13:56

are all dug, the platforms are being laid at the

13:58

moment. The work's 80%. percent done. There

14:01

are 40 something level

14:03

crossings around Auckland where the railway and

14:05

the road cross over each other and

14:07

because we're going to have double the

14:09

capacity of our train network, that effectively

14:11

means double the number of trains and

14:13

longer trains, many of those

14:16

road crossings are going to become dangerous and

14:18

will be stopping the traffic

14:21

a lot of the time. There's one in Auckland where

14:23

it's going to stop the traffic for three quarters of

14:25

every hour which

14:28

clearly is going to infuriate drivers

14:30

and therefore possibly encourage them to

14:32

take risks they shouldn't take. That

14:36

work should be addressed so

14:38

that some of those crossings should close, others

14:40

have to be what's called grade separated which

14:43

means you basically put a bridge or an

14:45

underpass across the rail line

14:48

so that the cars and the trains

14:50

don't get in each other's way. Obviously

14:52

a sensible thing to do is not

14:54

funded in the GPS so there's an

14:56

issue there. There's also funding

14:58

to finish the Eastern Busway which is

15:01

running from Panmure out

15:03

to Botany. Again

15:05

that work is well down the line so

15:08

to speak and so that

15:10

obviously has to finish and there is an

15:12

intention to build a new busway or a

15:14

new rapid transit line in the north west.

15:17

Much needed but there's almost nothing

15:19

else for any other kinds of

15:21

public transport and if you think

15:23

about the question of how do you get

15:25

people to agree I'm going to leave the car at

15:27

home today, they've got to know that

15:29

their local bus is going to turn up. It's

15:32

not going to be too expensive to use, it's going to

15:34

be pretty frequent, it's going to be reliable,

15:36

all of those things and if there

15:38

isn't the funding in those areas then

15:41

we could see the local transport networks

15:43

in Auckland really suffer. When

15:45

Transport Minister Simeon Brown released his draft

15:47

policy statement, he said it will unlock

15:49

infrastructure investments that are needed to help

15:52

Aucklanders get where they need to go,

15:54

quickly and safely. Simon

15:56

disagrees. big

16:00

public transport projects, City Rail Link and

16:02

the Eastern Busway and they will make

16:04

a significant difference, no question. But they

16:07

were in place already. They're not invented

16:09

by this new government. He's

16:11

also talking about the roads of national

16:13

significance. Now there are three in Auckland.

16:16

One is called the East-West Link, which

16:19

is a four-lane highway that will join

16:21

the two motorways that lead south out

16:23

of Auckland. That project

16:25

was proposed under the previous

16:27

national lead government of John

16:29

Key. It went to

16:31

the Environment Court. It's been extraordinarily

16:34

debated at length. It has never had a

16:36

good business case. And when it was going

16:38

to be built, it was going to be

16:40

the most expensive road per

16:42

kilometre in the world except

16:45

for the new highway that Russia built

16:47

for the Winter Olympics in Sochi. And

16:50

that was then. That

16:53

was 2016-17. Obviously a lot more expensive now. So

16:55

there is no economic case for the East-West Link.

16:58

It is a favourite among some trucking

17:00

companies. And that's really all you

17:02

can say about it. The second one

17:04

is we've already had the

17:06

poohoy to walk with motorway extension. The

17:08

next one will be walk with to

17:11

Wellsford. That again is an expensive piece

17:13

of highway which will push the bottleneck

17:15

a bit further north and will help

17:18

people who are driving a lot in

17:20

that area but also does nothing to

17:22

encourage any alternatives. And if you think

17:24

about it in terms of freight, because

17:27

there's a big argument that freight efficiently ought

17:29

to get between Northland and Auckland,

17:31

then the railway is the

17:33

facility that needs the most work

17:35

rather than the roads in my

17:38

view. The third one is a

17:40

road called Mill Road which is

17:42

in the south. Papakura down to

17:44

Drury. Drury is an enormously booming

17:46

area. It houses as far as

17:48

you can see in every direction at the moment.

17:50

There is work being done on the rail line.

17:52

It's being electrified through there and there are three

17:54

new stations going in. But there needs

17:56

to be a lot more attention to public transport and

17:58

one of the... The casualties of

18:02

the lack of funding from the regional fuel

18:04

tax is that while the railway line will

18:06

be better, Auckland Transport had

18:08

plans to bring in bus feeder services

18:10

from that whole area to bring people

18:13

to the train stations. It may

18:15

not be able to afford to do that now. Auckland

18:17

Transport was relying on income from the

18:20

regional fuel tax which added 11.5 cents

18:22

a litre at the pump and national

18:24

promise to remove. It goes in

18:26

July. It's a great day because

18:28

I'm here with the Minister of Transport, Simeon

18:30

Brown, and we're announcing that Auckland's regional fuel

18:32

tax will end on the 30th of June.

18:34

Auckland's Mayor says major transport projects in the

18:36

country's biggest city are now at a crossroads

18:39

with the government confirming it'll scrap the regional

18:41

fuel tax. Aucklanders might soon be

18:43

saving more money at the petrol pump,

18:45

but some residents are wondering at what

18:47

cost. The cost is a shortfall in

18:50

funding of over a billion dollars. Simeon

18:53

says it will destroy the goal of

18:55

a solid, reliable public transport network.

18:58

At the moment Auckland Transport is looking

19:00

at the impact of losing the regional fuel

19:03

tax and they have decided what they want

19:05

to do is they're going to go back

19:07

through all their spending and say,

19:09

OK, we're only going to have this

19:11

much money now, so what are

19:13

we going to lose? So they're not simply cutting

19:16

the projects that were funded by the regional

19:18

fuel tax. They're saying, OK, some of those

19:20

we want to keep anyway because they're too

19:22

important. And that's a really tough process where

19:25

they have not yet reported in public what

19:27

they want to do. We expect that to

19:29

come either this month or next month. So

19:31

what else is not in the transport GPS?

19:34

There is very little commitment in

19:36

the GPS to doing anything serious

19:38

about carbon emissions. It's

19:40

gone out of the priorities

19:42

altogether. And that's a worry.

19:45

There is very little recognition

19:47

that you can't solve congestion

19:49

by building roads of national

19:51

significance. You have you can only solve

19:54

it if you create fewer reasons for

19:56

people to take the car. What's the

19:58

what's the most pressing need? you think

20:00

for Auckland when it comes to transport?

20:04

In my view, the most pressing

20:06

need in Auckland is to develop

20:08

a really attractive public transport network.

20:10

And that means that

20:13

it should be low cost, it

20:15

should be reliable, it should be

20:18

frequent, it needs to be

20:20

safe. And there is a real

20:22

issue for public transport. Lots of people say,

20:24

okay, I don't mind catching the train, but

20:26

I don't want to walk in the back

20:28

from the train station to my home. So

20:30

there's an issue there that needs to be

20:32

solved socially. How does the

20:34

rest of the city put in enough proper

20:36

street lighting? Because there's

20:38

not enough. How do we

20:41

make it possible for people to feel

20:43

safer walking around in the city, particularly

20:45

at night? For full disclosure,

20:47

you're quite an avid cyclist, correct?

20:50

Yes. Could it

20:52

be that this government

20:54

is just going in a direction that you're not

20:56

keen on? I'm

21:00

not aware of any proposal

21:04

that will manage congestion well on

21:06

Auckland roads or any other roads that

21:09

doesn't involve creating really

21:11

viable alternatives to driving on

21:13

them. And that's a combination

21:15

of the alternative transport systems

21:17

you've set up, public transport

21:19

especially, but also if you

21:22

have a denser city, then the chances

21:24

of living closer to where you work

21:26

increase, the chances of living closer enough

21:28

to your school for the kids to walk to

21:30

school, that increases and so on. I'm

21:32

not aware that there's an alternative

21:34

to solving the problem of congestion

21:36

on the roads than that. I

21:38

know that with the rise of

21:41

EVs, we're going to

21:43

have fewer emissions on our roads.

21:46

But that's not necessarily the

21:48

panacea that people hope for, for

21:50

a number of reasons. EVs aren't

21:53

perfect. Most of the EVs coming into New

21:55

Zealand are large and they're heavy. And

21:57

the other thing about EVs is that... I

22:00

encourage a lot of people to drive because people

22:02

think I'm not creating carbon emissions, so I can

22:05

drive. And that just increases

22:07

congestion again. Convocation

22:10

of the draft GPS for land

22:12

transport has now closed. And the

22:14

Ministry of Transport is currently reviewing the

22:17

feedback. The final copy will take

22:19

effect by July this year. That's

22:21

all for today. The detail is from

22:23

the date Arian did an Inhale-Dolondi. This

22:25

episode was engineered by William Saunders and

22:28

produced by Alexia Russell. Thanks, Thomas Coughlin

22:30

and Simon Wilson. I'm Davina Zinner. Taki

22:33

Tiemel.