0:06

Your stories have

0:09

been heartbreaking, but

0:13

they have also been inspiring. It

0:17

has been a humble privilege to hear them. I'm

0:22

sure I speak for everyone when I say we

0:24

all wish you very well. The

0:27

message from Judge Evangelos Thomas to

0:30

the victims of the Fakadi White

0:32

Island eruption, those who

0:34

suffered horrific injuries and the

0:36

whānau of those who died.

0:39

We know their stories well but for

0:41

many the court trial was the first

0:43

time we heard from the victims themselves.

0:47

Since losing him it's

0:49

always there. The

0:52

morning that he left, he

0:56

told me that he might have a feeling that

0:58

something may happen. He

1:02

went to work anyway. I

1:04

know that's my son. I recognise his big

1:07

puku. Ah

1:12

gosh. It's

1:15

too much. But

1:17

sometimes they were too unbearable

1:19

to tell. Standing beside

1:22

them, speaking for them, giving them

1:24

comfort, a hug, a hand on

1:26

the shoulder, words of encouragement was

1:29

victim support worker Colleen Alice. Here

1:31

she is speaking for the father

1:33

of tour guide Hayden Marshall Inman.

1:36

Every morning when I wake up I can

1:38

see the White Island in the distance and

1:41

wonder just where Hayden's body lies

1:44

as he never came home thanks

1:46

to the incompetence of those

1:48

responsible for his recovery. And here

1:51

she stands next to Beverly, the

1:53

mother of Sydney man Chris Kozad

1:56

who died. I was told on

1:58

Christmas. I

2:01

can't read it. Do you want me to leave?

2:04

I can't read it. Since

2:07

the disaster, my mood

2:09

has been low and I've been frequently

2:11

tearful. I

2:14

constantly feel empty as if there is

2:17

something missing. I'm Sharon

2:19

Brett Kelly. Today on the detail,

2:21

the crucial, often heartbreaking, sometimes

2:23

dangerous role of victim support. In

2:26

the 12 months to June 2023, this

2:29

government funded organisation helped 48,677

2:31

victims, a record. But

2:37

their work is not just those few minutes

2:39

captured of them in court. Sometimes

2:42

they walk beside the victim for

2:44

years. Today we meet

2:46

Melissa Gordon. She's worked for victim support

2:48

for over a decade on the front

2:51

line and now in charge of the

2:53

service to clients. So

2:55

we're supporting victims of crime,

2:58

suicide and traumatic events. So

3:00

some of the more extreme cases

3:03

obviously would be things like homicide.

3:07

So in a homicide, we are involved

3:09

right at the get go.

3:11

So that could be at the scene.

3:13

That could be alongside police. Sort

3:16

of supporting them as well as the client

3:19

while they're getting informed that their loved one

3:21

has unfortunately been

3:23

killed. It

3:25

can go for years right through the criminal

3:27

justice process, which includes a coronal

3:30

process, which, you know, obviously, by

3:33

the time you've gone through the criminal

3:35

justice system and moved on to the

3:37

coronal process, that could be a minimum

3:39

of two years. It's not saying that

3:41

we're speaking to the client every single

3:43

day, sometimes not even every month, especially

3:46

as that time goes on. But

3:49

we are certainly involved when they

3:51

need us or as

3:53

the criminal justice system is rolling

3:56

out, really. So are you saying

3:58

that you get a very good view? a

4:00

call very early on? Yes,

4:03

so the majority of the referrals

4:05

we receive are from police. We're

4:09

not part of police but we are based

4:12

mainly in police stations across the country.

4:15

They would be one of our key partner

4:18

agencies, stakeholders. We

4:20

could get a call just after the incident

4:22

has happened or

4:25

we have other agencies that can

4:27

refer like within courts there are

4:29

court victim advisors, another key partner

4:31

that we work alongside so we

4:33

might get called in as someone's

4:35

going through the court process. The

4:38

likes of FICARDI, so I know that we had a team

4:40

of people on scene there and

4:43

providing that at that point obviously

4:45

it was a lot of support

4:47

to witnesses and whanau of people

4:50

that were affected and that support

4:53

did continue right up until what

4:55

you saw in the media. So when you say

4:58

victim support was on scene there,

5:00

are you saying on the day

5:02

that FICARDI White Island erupted, victim

5:05

support was there? Yes,

5:07

we were there as soon

5:09

as we get the referral

5:12

I guess which obviously we're in the

5:14

police station so we are getting in

5:16

a major event like that where we're

5:19

in the police stations anyway so

5:21

often we'll go along with them.

5:24

So we will visit people

5:26

wherever they need us to be

5:29

pending safety obviously but it's not uncommon

5:31

to be visiting people in hospital. Say

5:34

in the case of a homicide, you

5:38

get called what? Very soon

5:40

after the incident round about the

5:42

same time that the police are

5:44

responding, victim support is

5:46

getting that call to go

5:49

and as you say support the police

5:51

as well as the client. A

5:54

lot of our support especially in that crisis

5:56

point is really you're just being present, you're

5:59

making sure that if it's not the person themselves

6:01

but maybe one of their

6:03

whānau members or support, you

6:06

know, part of their sort of support network that might

6:08

be present with them, is making

6:10

sure that they understand what has

6:12

just happened. Now that's sort of

6:15

part of this psychological first

6:17

aid. St John's do it,

6:19

a lot of social services do, psychological first

6:21

aid. You know, you've really

6:23

got to think, if you're going to get a knock

6:25

on your door and you've got a police officer standing

6:27

there, a victim support person standing there and they've just

6:29

told you that something terrible

6:31

like a homicide has happened to

6:34

your son, to your daughter, you

6:36

know, what is it that you're going to want to know? What

6:39

has happened to my loved one? Where is my

6:41

loved one and what's going to happen next? But

6:44

again, they're in a state of trauma, you

6:47

know, they're in a huge state of shock.

6:49

So it's making sure that that message is

6:51

repeated as much as the person

6:53

needs it to be repeated or it's passed

6:55

on to a support person, a

6:58

family member. Moving on from that,

7:00

I guess it is, you know, providing information.

7:02

So that could be the criminal

7:05

justice system on

7:07

grief in general. People

7:09

say, you know, they feel like they're going crazy.

7:13

So we play a role in actually saying,

7:15

you know, it's actually really normal to feel

7:18

the way you feel or think what

7:20

you're thinking, have these experiences, whatever

7:22

they might be. It's

7:24

a normal reaction to an

7:27

abnormal event. Yeah, people

7:29

are surprised how it affects

7:32

you so physically, you know, that's a

7:34

level and degree of trauma. And

7:36

what way, Melissa? I don't

7:38

know, people do all sorts of

7:40

different things. So some people can

7:42

faint, some people don't cry at all.

7:45

Some people could collapse, some people can

7:48

get angry. The heart

7:50

rate goes up cold, hot, silly

7:52

bodily function. Some people need to run to

7:54

the toilet, some people vomit. And

7:57

then on from that, people start to get concerned

7:59

because they might not. might be having flashbacks

8:01

which of course if you've never

8:03

had that experience that is going to be

8:05

really troubling to you and it's affecting your sleep.

8:09

If you've been through a traumatic event it's

8:11

really normal to get flashbacks. If

8:13

you were still getting flashbacks a little

8:16

bit further down the track and there

8:18

was a huge effect on your life

8:20

then hey you might be starting to

8:23

look at reaching out for more professional

8:25

help. That's when we would look to

8:27

find who could meet that person's need

8:29

within the community or

8:31

maybe through different funding avenues. Who

8:34

actually gets the support? I mean you

8:36

say the role has changed and it's

8:38

kind of a much tougher role but

8:41

are there guidelines for who is

8:43

actually eligible for this

8:45

support? It is great.

8:48

However if you're a victim of

8:51

crime and people

8:53

can define that in all sorts of interesting

8:55

ways but I guess we work in

8:58

line with the Victims Rights Act. If

9:00

you were a victim of a crime under the Victims

9:02

Rights Act then we would support you. That's

9:04

not saying if you

9:07

were maybe slightly outside of that we

9:09

wouldn't. If you're a victim

9:11

of suicide so when I say victim you

9:13

know if you're a witness, a

9:15

whanau member, if you're a friend, a first

9:18

on the scene of well

9:20

really any traumatic event then

9:23

you're fitting into that criteria

9:25

so fatal motor vehicle

9:28

accidents, assaults, kidnappings,

9:30

homicide, suicide. So

9:33

you've talked about the range of

9:36

situations that you were called

9:38

into. So as an

9:40

example if you're called out

9:42

to a homicide very

9:44

soon after it's happened how do you

9:46

actually prepare for that? I mean you

9:48

get the phone call and it could

9:50

be the middle of the night. How

9:53

do you as the victim support person

9:56

start to prepare for

9:58

speaking to that person who's going

10:00

to get the worst

10:03

news ever? Yeah

10:05

it is definitely quite a surreal

10:08

moment. I always thought to

10:10

myself personally if it was something that I

10:12

started to get used to then I would

10:14

need to remove myself from the front

10:17

line. But I guess

10:19

for me and everyone is different, I

10:22

really ground myself. So I do a little

10:24

bit of breathing, a little bit of mindfulness

10:26

sort of a technique. You know I remind

10:28

myself this moment is not

10:30

about me at all. Ultimately

10:33

as terrible as it sounds, there

10:36

is nothing I can do to take the

10:38

pain that this person is feeling or about

10:40

to feel away from them. So

10:43

I really ground myself, bring

10:45

myself into check and then I, yeah

10:48

look I just be present and

10:50

allow people to feel and

10:53

do what it is they need to feel and

10:55

do in that moment. And hey

10:57

look then there is a little bit of

11:00

a judgement call happening here because you know

11:02

I'm always very mindful that people are going to

11:04

want to know where my loved one is.

11:06

They could actually still be at the scene or they

11:09

could be in the hospital at a morgue and

11:11

there's lots of little processes and

11:14

rights that go alongside those things. So

11:16

people do want to know that so then they

11:18

can make like an informed choice.

11:21

Because reactions of people

11:23

are unpredictable, have you

11:27

had to back away from

11:30

any kind of difficult situations?

11:33

I haven't had anybody ever lash out at me.

11:36

I guess I have been on

11:39

the you know peripheral

11:41

of a scene where there might

11:43

be some heated opposing gang exchanges.

11:46

I mean we do pretty

11:48

intensive training so we're pretty aware

11:51

of those situations. I wouldn't

11:53

have been in that situation if police

11:55

officers weren't there. What is

11:57

the most difficult situation that you've been in?

12:00

I mean you say that you're doing less front-line

12:02

stuff at the moment but when you were doing

12:04

it? They

12:06

all have, you know, all the situations

12:08

that have their challenges. I

12:11

think emotionally

12:13

difficult for me for

12:16

whatever reason, probably because I have my own

12:18

children, I was at

12:20

a homicide where the undertakers, they

12:23

were just removing the body and the

12:26

hearse was driving out and it

12:28

stopped because the family were all

12:31

on the street as you can imagine and

12:33

one of the sons put his hand

12:36

on the hearse and sort

12:38

of just leant his head on it and just

12:41

cried and that emotionally out

12:43

of all the things that

12:45

I've experienced, that really

12:47

emotionally hit me in the heart I

12:49

guess thinking of my own children. What

12:52

did you do? How did you

12:55

bring comfort to him? Well

12:58

you know what? I actually, I just didn't

13:00

do a thing. That's something

13:02

he needed to do for himself. When

13:05

I say child, he was an adult child. I

13:07

didn't do a single thing except,

13:10

you know, once his father

13:12

had obviously been removed from the scene

13:14

and emotions were calming down, I

13:16

just checked in on him to just see how

13:19

he was feeling. That's all you can do. Yes,

13:21

so sometimes it's knowing

13:23

when to stand back

13:26

and allow that person just

13:29

to express their feelings and

13:32

when to kind of step up. You

13:35

know, when we watched Colleen,

13:37

your colleague who was

13:39

the victim support person at the

13:41

Fakari White Island sentencing, she

13:44

was very close to them, wasn't she? She

13:47

was physically very close and occasionally she'd put

13:49

out a hand, touch them

13:51

on the shoulder or sometimes hug

13:53

as well as at the same time talking to

13:55

them and saying, you know, do you want me

13:57

to take over or you know, would you?

14:00

like me to say that. So you

14:03

must become good at you know

14:05

judging the situation. Yeah

14:07

I think you do you do become good at

14:09

it but I mean you have to

14:11

try to read the situation and you're just

14:13

not always gonna get it right and owning

14:16

it if you do get it wrong. The crisis

14:18

point is would be the hardest point because

14:20

you don't have an existing

14:23

relationship you know. So for Colleen

14:25

she had a long-standing existing

14:27

relationship with all that whanau.

14:29

I don't think that there

14:32

is one single person that

14:34

she was not involved with

14:37

or hadn't been involved with for a long

14:39

extended period of time. You know

14:41

she's got enough connection and knows

14:43

those people well enough to know

14:45

that a touch on the arm

14:47

is reassuring that a hug is appropriate.

14:50

That to ask you know do you want me

14:52

to take over as appropriate

14:54

to say. Once you've got the

14:57

relationship and that connection and they

14:59

have it with you then you can

15:01

read each other if that makes sense

15:03

just like any relationship. Right yeah

15:05

and because of the justice system

15:07

because often cases take a long

15:09

time to get through the system

15:11

you know years you

15:14

would have had long-term relationships

15:16

with some people. Yeah

15:19

I mean I can think of one that I worked

15:21

on and it would have been six maybe even seven

15:23

years ago now

15:26

and certainly the gap between

15:28

the trials and sentencing and things like this

15:30

that happened and then

15:32

going through to the coronal

15:35

process that gap in the middle you know there wasn't a

15:37

heap of communication between me and

15:39

them but as soon as

15:42

that coronal process started to come to the

15:44

forefront you know they're getting prepared for it they're

15:46

aware when it's

15:48

going to happen then they

15:50

were contacting me and that was a two

15:52

two and a half week coronal

15:56

process and I still do

15:58

hear from them. today,

16:00

not randomly because there's always a

16:02

need there, there's always a need for them

16:04

to contact me, but it could even be

16:06

that they want to understand,

16:10

you know, when someone passes away, so like

16:12

some legalities around that, which is not

16:14

my fault, might I add, however

16:16

I knew who to send them to. But

16:19

if there's a specific need they

16:21

have, they don't hesitate to ring

16:23

us, I think, yeah, okay, I've done

16:26

a reasonable job here because they've come back

16:28

to me. How do

16:30

you unwind

16:32

from one

16:34

of these intense situations, like

16:36

if you've been visiting

16:39

whanau to break the news

16:41

to them, how do you

16:43

as the victim support person

16:46

come home and deal

16:49

with it yourself? Yeah, I hear

16:51

what you're saying and I think, again, everyone's

16:54

very different in that. If I

16:57

was talking very high end sort

16:59

of stressful situation, I actually

17:01

don't come home straight away, even if I just

17:03

pull over to the side of the road, you know, and

17:06

even if I don't feel that it's

17:08

emotionally affected, I give myself the

17:11

time to allow my adrenaline,

17:13

because, you know, there's a level of stress involved in

17:15

it, my adrenaline to come

17:17

down and allow myself to

17:19

feel whatever I might feel, you

17:22

know, in that moment. But honestly, I

17:24

often come home and

17:27

I am just grateful to see

17:29

my partner, to see my kids.

17:32

I'm grateful that I have

17:34

them to come home to.

17:37

For me, it's been like a

17:39

life changing experience and

17:41

continues to be working in this

17:44

space because it's changed me as

17:46

a person. Like I don't sweat the small

17:48

stuff. I'm really quite chilled

17:50

and laid back. People would think that

17:52

I should probably be more highly strung

17:55

because, you know, I see first hand

17:57

how someone's life can be changed. in

18:00

a second. So I don't

18:03

worry about the small stuff. I

18:05

milk the small moments. I really suck

18:08

in the feeling I feel when one

18:10

of my daughters smiles at me. That

18:13

makes sense. Yeah. Has

18:15

the role of victim support changed?

18:17

I mean, is it

18:19

now dealing with much tougher

18:21

situations? So it

18:23

has changed. So historically,

18:27

you would see victim support. We were probably

18:29

in more dangerous situations, if I'm honest, in

18:32

the early days. I mean, we've been around

18:34

for nearly 40 years now. Yeah,

18:36

I would say we would have been in

18:38

a lot more dangerous situations and we didn't

18:40

have the technology that we have today or

18:43

even our national body that was looking

18:45

over us all. It was all very

18:48

individual. So I think we have a

18:50

little bit of a hangover reputation of

18:52

being cup of tea makers. That's

18:55

what I call it. And hey,

18:57

and I'm all about making a cup of tea. I'm like,

19:00

if the person needs you to make a cup

19:02

of tea, then by all means make the cup

19:05

of tea. But don't make it because you feel

19:07

you need to do something. The

19:10

complexities of it has changed. Obviously,

19:13

the level of violence around the country

19:15

has changed

19:18

and increased. Has it?

19:20

Well, yeah, I think it has. I

19:23

mean, look, I'm not talking statistically

19:25

here. No, just by your experience. Yeah,

19:27

just from what I see, it's remembering

19:30

I've been here for a wee while. Like

19:32

when methamphetamine became more prominent drug

19:35

of choice, I guess, you

19:37

know, you could definitely see the increase

19:40

in violence, I guess. And

19:42

the intense training you talked about, you

19:44

do get good training for this situation.

19:47

What is that? We're just doing

19:50

a big review at the moment of all of our

19:52

training. So it's only going to get better. So

19:54

at the moment, we do sort of four

19:56

days. So it's a big ask, especially if

19:58

you're talking about the voluntary. hearing for us

20:01

but we do give four days of training

20:04

so one day that is dedicated

20:06

to supporting victims of suicide

20:09

because you know that's a pretty heavy

20:11

topic to cover. We're looking

20:13

at these skills around listening skills

20:15

and empathy. We're looking at like

20:18

your unconscious biases, talking

20:20

about organisation generally, how we work

20:22

alongside police, criminal justice system. We're

20:24

touching on all those topics. We're

20:27

just starting to delve

20:29

into more what we call reflective

20:32

practice. So looking at what

20:34

we could have improved on or what went really well,

20:36

that type of thing. We

20:39

link in with some national or

20:41

local agencies. Skylight is a

20:43

good one. The grief centre is a

20:45

great one. If you're talking

20:47

at a support worker level where you

20:49

are on the front line, we generally,

20:52

we buddy people up. You

20:54

can only train so much before you've

20:56

got to learn on the

20:58

job and have that experience. There

21:02

were a couple of things that you said

21:04

to me yesterday which I thought were really

21:06

interesting. I think there was something about you

21:08

have to learn to be comfortable in an

21:10

uncomfortable situation. Yeah, you've got

21:13

to learn to be comfortable in an

21:15

uncomfortable situation. So yeah, I think

21:18

that's the one. Well, like for me an

21:20

uncomfortable situation, I've sitting with someone that's just

21:22

been told their child has died. You know,

21:25

that's not a comfortable situation for any person

21:27

to be in. You know, when I

21:29

talked about how I sort of prepare myself and I, you know,

21:32

keep myself in check. That's

21:34

how I prepare myself to

21:36

be comfortable in that uncomfortable

21:39

environment. You also have

21:42

to remind yourself that, you

21:44

know, I'm not going to fix anybody. Victim

21:46

support, we're not offering a fix. We're

21:48

offering to walk alongside

21:51

a person. I had a

21:53

mother say to me, she had lost her son, how

21:55

am I going to go on without him? He was

21:57

my favorite, she says, my favorite. I Remember

21:59

having a. Go about that with here

22:01

and I said. I don't know

22:03

because I don't know, I'm not gonna. I'm

22:06

not know like silica. I don't know how

22:08

you gonna do it but I'd better. But

22:10

I do know is that I've seen many

22:12

people do it. You. Know

22:14

my seen many people face

22:17

this type of church day.

22:19

And carry on. And I'm not saying that it's

22:21

not hard on the personally I think it's the

22:24

hardest thing. Any human pain

22:26

as gonna have to go. Sorry

22:28

but I can give his hope

22:30

because I've watched people do it

22:33

and I can give hair and

22:35

for my son sets. I can

22:37

recommend all sorts of things. To

22:40

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