0:03

Whether it's a concert or

0:06

a big game. Wilkinson! New Zealand won,

0:08

Norway nil. And

0:14

the Oblax are the world

0:17

champions for the

0:19

second time. You

0:21

can't beat moments like that in a

0:23

stadium, right? But

0:25

when it comes to the best configuration for

0:28

hosting a city's big events, there's

0:30

always a fight. Eden Park is

0:32

reportedly about to win the battle

0:35

of the Auckland stadiums. A

0:37

working committee will make a recommendation to

0:39

Auckland Council on whether to invest in

0:42

Eden Park or one of the rival

0:44

waterfront stadium bids. Whether it will

0:46

be revamping Eden Park or building a

0:48

new stadium at the waterfront, the challenge

0:50

will be to do so with little

0:52

to no rate payer money. Some Aucklanders

0:54

say they like the idea of a

0:57

big new stadium in the central city.

0:59

I think a central city stadium would

1:02

be fantastic and good for the city.

1:04

Kia ora, I'm Tom Kitchen and today

1:06

on The Detail, a debate

1:08

that's been simmering for decades and

1:11

has risen again with yet another

1:13

proposal for a waterfront stadium in

1:15

Auckland. But it's not

1:17

just Auckland. Nationwide, there's argument

1:20

about getting the right venues in

1:22

the right place for the right

1:24

price. Firstly, the

1:27

debate raging in our biggest city. We

1:30

start with Brian Finn, an expert

1:32

on Auckland stadia. He's a

1:34

public affairs consultant who used to be head

1:36

of communications for New Zealand Rugby. I've

1:39

also worked as an adviser to

1:41

parts of Auckland Council around their

1:43

stadium strategy. So I've sort of

1:45

been in around sport and stadium

1:47

matters for a good 30 years,

1:49

roughly now. It's a passion that

1:51

also happens to be part of

1:53

my job. In Auckland itself, our

1:55

biggest city, there are four stadiums.

1:57

Right. So Eden Park, Mount Smart. Western

2:00

Springs, North Harbour. Have I got that

2:02

right? Correct. Yes. How did we get

2:04

to have four stadiums? What's the purpose

2:07

of each one? How long have

2:09

you got? It's

2:11

really a legacy of the old

2:13

territorial local authorities that used to

2:15

govern Auckland prior to the creation

2:18

of the Super City. And so

2:20

in the years past, each council

2:23

in its own area, so you think

2:25

of Waitakani Council, North Shore City, Manukau

2:27

City, all of those areas had their

2:30

own facilities, community facilities, and some

2:32

of them included stadia, and they

2:34

developed areas along their own lines

2:36

to service local needs effectively. Two

2:38

outliers, one is Mount Smart, which

2:40

came under the ownership of the

2:42

Auckland Regional Council, which also predated

2:44

the Super City, and Eden Park,

2:46

which is privately owned, essentially owned

2:48

by Auckland Cricket and Auckland Rugby,

2:51

and is privately owned and run,

2:53

unlike the other three facilities, which

2:55

now are all owned by Auckland

2:57

Council and operated by Tātaki Auckland

2:59

Unlimited. So Eden Park is often

3:01

referred to as the National Stadium,

3:03

so that is the home

3:06

of Rugby, home of Cricket, would you say, in

3:08

New Zealand? No. I'd probably

3:10

take it all good. Two

3:13

reasons. One, the only people who have called it

3:15

the National Stadium are the Eden Park Trust Board,

3:17

so we need to keep that in mind. And

3:19

in fact, when various initiatives came up to develop

3:23

new stadia, the sporting codes

3:25

were adamant that you didn't get

3:27

to call something a National Stadium just because

3:29

it was in Auckland. Having said that, it

3:31

is definitely the home of Rugby,

3:34

when you think that Auckland Rugby, the

3:36

Blues, and also the All Blacks play out of

3:38

there, and we've hosted regular

3:40

cups there. Cricket really don't regard Eden

3:42

Park as a home. Even Auckland Cricket

3:44

have expressed their desire to leave, and

3:46

New Zealand Cricket play very few fixtures

3:48

there, compared to how many fixtures they

3:50

play in other parts of the country.

3:52

And there's been no test cricket. Yeah,

3:54

I was going to ask you about that.

3:57

There's no test cricket venue in our biggest

3:59

city. You might have one

4:01

day there in T20s but nothing more

4:03

really. That's correct. Yeah, limited over cricket

4:06

still plays at Eden Park and as

4:08

everybody knows, it's got

4:10

real limitations being a hybrid

4:12

stadium that doesn't really meet

4:14

the full needs of either a rectangular

4:16

code, football code or cricket because

4:18

it's not an oval. So one of

4:21

the initiatives that came out of the

4:23

stadium strategy we were exploring back in

4:25

the 2015 to 2018 period was to redevelop Western Springs

4:28

as a cricket ground because it's

4:34

already a natural oval and it

4:36

reflects those qualities that both New

4:38

Zealand cricket and

4:41

the New Zealand teams and fans have

4:43

really shown a liking to and that

4:45

is that village green atmosphere. What happened

4:47

to that idea? A couple of different

4:49

things. One was there

4:51

was no funding to develop that at that time

4:53

even though New Zealand cricket had expressed a very

4:55

strong interest in it. Two, the

4:58

current tenants of Western Springs were

5:00

Speedway and there was a

5:02

real tension around Speedway not wanting to

5:04

look at alternative options away from Western

5:07

Springs. The other council had offered

5:09

to relocate them. Mount

5:11

Smart as well. Can we just go

5:13

over Mount Smart itself as known as

5:16

the home of Rugby League? Primarily, that's

5:18

the home of the Warriors and

5:21

who are obviously in the middle of a

5:23

great tier last season and this season and

5:26

really connecting with their fans in a major way. You'd

5:34

probably argue that everybody's loving Mount Smart

5:36

right at the minute. Fans are enjoying

5:38

the experience there. The Warriors are

5:40

putting on great events there in terms of

5:42

around their matchday experience. They're based there, they're

5:44

trained there, they've got their offices there. It

5:46

sort of really works. There really

5:49

is a multi-use venue but

5:51

you'd associate it primarily with

5:53

the Warriors and with concerts that have been hosted

5:56

there for many years including record-breaking

5:58

runs by Ed Sheeran. and Adele who

6:00

both did three nights there each. Just

6:09

back to North Harbour, it hasn't had

6:12

a hell of a lot of big

6:14

sporting or music events for

6:16

quite some time. So the

6:18

council has a proposal out to, well

6:20

what is their proposal? There's a bit

6:22

of misinformation about it. Some people say

6:24

they want to bowl it and start

6:27

again. As I understand it, they

6:29

want to reduce the footprint of the

6:32

main stadium. Effectively that means the

6:34

main stand and turn that

6:36

into a boutique stadium but maximise the

6:39

use of the precinct around it for

6:41

community sport and other uses. Some people

6:43

on the North Shore feel that's a

6:45

loss of status and a

6:47

loss of amenity to lose part of that

6:50

stadium. You need to get the pressure on

6:52

Auckland Councillors. Make sure that they keep the stadium

6:54

as it is and put it under new management.

6:56

Personally, I think it's probably the right way

6:58

to go in that it's not being used

7:01

for major events any longer and that's not

7:03

a product of mismanagement as some people have

7:05

claimed. I don't believe. I think it's just

7:08

a reality that people don't

7:10

want to travel to the north edge of

7:12

the city if they're from across

7:14

the bridge. And the other thing is that stadium

7:16

is not as well geared up to host

7:19

big events as the likes of Mount Smart,

7:21

Eden Park and Western Springs. And that's because

7:23

it was never built to accommodate very large

7:25

crowds. It's got something like seven or eight

7:28

sporting fields that have got floodlights, they've got

7:30

mixed oat tooth which means that they can

7:32

be played on in all weathers. And that's

7:34

really rare. In a city the

7:37

size of Auckland, you need lots of

7:39

sports fields to sustain community sport on

7:41

Saturdays, Sundays, training during the week, school

7:43

events and North Harbour provides that. So I

7:45

think losing those would be a

7:47

far bigger impact, I think, on the

7:50

North Shore community than would losing part of

7:52

the main stand, for example. So

7:55

these are all our current

7:57

stadiums that we have right now. As

8:00

we know, there's all these other proposals

8:02

to put a stadium in

8:05

the middle of the city centre

8:07

or somewhere around the city centre. What

8:10

are the proposals there? I understand

8:13

there's four proposals that were, if

8:15

you like, made the shortlist for

8:17

this working group of Auckland

8:19

Council that was looking at alternatives

8:21

for future development. Auckland Council will

8:23

be voting for one of the four proposals

8:25

at the end of May. One of

8:27

those is repurposing Eden Park or

8:29

redeveloping Eden Park. And then there are

8:32

three in the central city, one on

8:34

Tank Farm, one

8:36

on the Warfist area of

8:38

Port of Auckland and one behind Spark

8:40

Arena which is called Teton Roa which

8:42

is on Nati Fartua and Railway Land.

8:44

A stadium opening out Sir

8:47

Langitoto at the heart

8:49

of a 15 hectare urban redevelopment

8:52

complete with an all-black grounded hotel, apartment

8:55

and dining options. Full disclosure, I don't

8:57

work for that group but I've had

8:59

a connection to them going back a

9:01

few years and I actually think it's

9:03

a really compelling vision for a couple

9:05

of reasons. One, it's

9:07

not the waterfront and two, it

9:10

makes use of a part of

9:12

town that's currently underused and not

9:14

fully developed. What

9:16

about the sunken

9:18

stadium that's called the Cracer

9:20

with the floating roof above sea level? Does

9:23

that take your fancy? The reason that we've developed this

9:25

one which would see the

9:27

central section of the Auckland waterfront redeveloped,

9:30

anchored by a new 50,000 seat fully

9:32

enclosed all-weather stadium which is sunken down

9:34

into the seabed. For some reason people

9:37

have latched on to this idea that

9:39

we need a waterfront stadium and I

9:41

suspect the example that comes

9:43

up most often is this in the Opera House.

9:45

We need some sort of landmark venue like

9:48

the Opera House or Auckland. I'd

9:50

argue that a stadium is not that. It's

9:53

got to be a functional stadium. Some

9:55

of the ones around the world and I'm a stadium

9:57

junkie so I tend to like most people. the

10:00

venues that I visit. Some of them look spectacular

10:02

but some of them don't look like much at

10:04

all but they work very very well. Dunedin's a

10:06

really good example of a really functional stadium that

10:08

gets the job done. It's got a roof and

10:11

it's very functional you'd argue. It's probably

10:13

not pretty but it does a great

10:15

job and that's what Auckland needs. I

10:18

think it also plays into the fact that we

10:20

just not very good at New Zealand infrastructure and

10:22

I think that's well documented now by the Infrastructure

10:24

Commission and others. We just don't plan for the

10:26

long term. What happens in

10:28

the stadium world is we tend to

10:31

wait until we've got an event coming up

10:33

and that forces us to create a new

10:35

venue or upgrade the facilities that we've got.

10:37

We saw that a little bit around the

10:40

FIFA Women's World Cup to a much

10:42

greater degree around the Men's Rugby World

10:44

Cup in 2011 where there was a

10:47

well-publicised shootout between a potential waterfront

10:49

stadium promoted by the then government

10:51

and a redeveloped Dunedin Park.

10:53

In the meantime Dunedin got on and built

10:56

a new stadium and got it ready

10:58

in time for World Cup with very little

11:00

help from outside. So that tends to be

11:02

the way things get done rather than saying

11:05

what do we need for the next 30 years? What

11:07

are all the current and future needs that we

11:09

need to cater for and how do we make

11:11

sure our facilities are future proof for that and

11:13

let's get on and build them now when we

11:15

don't have the time pressure of a Rugby World

11:17

Cup or a Football World Cup or a Crippa

11:20

World Cup in a steaming interview. What I think

11:22

what my turn paper lost without actually doing anything

11:24

is that the cost associated with it and who's

11:26

going to pay for it. I

11:28

mean wouldn't a redeveloped Dunedin Park

11:30

be a bit of a more

11:32

affordable option for Auckland ratepayers and

11:34

you know just in general than

11:37

developing a brand new fancy

11:39

looking stadium by Spark

11:42

Arena in the middle of town? My argument to

11:44

that is twofold. One it doesn't matter what we

11:46

do or in the case

11:48

of Auckland, Auckland City and Auckland ratepayers

11:50

will pay hundreds of millions of dollars

11:52

for stadia in the next 20 years.

11:54

That's a given. Just to maintain the

11:56

the facilities they have there now will

11:58

cost hundreds of millions. of dollars. All

12:01

of them need funding to just

12:04

to maintain the status quo. My argument is

12:06

it better to put money into just keeping

12:09

the facilities we have alive for another 10

12:11

or 20 years or do we bite the

12:13

bullet and say let's make an investment in

12:15

the future and create purpose-built facilities that are

12:18

in the right location. They're going to meet

12:20

all of the fans needs, they're going to

12:22

create economic opportunity in terms of attracting new

12:24

events and are also going to drive traffic

12:26

into the right parts of the city. The

12:29

other part of my argument is you can't

12:31

put a roof on Eden Park and build

12:33

10 new stands into it much cheaper if

12:35

cheaper at all than building a new stadium.

12:37

The structural work is so significant. Significant

12:40

cost or not, Eden

12:42

Park is rumored to be the hot favourite

12:44

for redevelopment. We'll know for sure at the

12:46

end of the month. But Auckland's

12:48

situation has a parallel from the other

12:50

end of the country, they

12:52

need it. At the moment the

12:55

events are really tracking along very

12:57

similarly. The Dunedin Stadium started with

13:00

a proposal to upgrade the old

13:02

stadium at Carriesbrook. Rob Hamlin is

13:04

a marketing lecturer at the University

13:07

of Otago. He's taught

13:09

feasibility analysis for the uni's Master

13:11

of Entrepreneurship and has been vocal

13:14

about Stadia for years. Rob

13:16

points out that 13 years ago

13:19

a working group was formed to

13:21

look at upgrading Carriesbrook with figures of 50

13:23

to 60 million dollars bandied

13:26

about. And then all of a sudden this

13:28

suggestion came more or less out of left field

13:31

that we should build a new stadium up in

13:33

the other end of town near the University. And

13:36

this came really as a bit of a

13:38

surprise. I mean most people didn't really take

13:40

it seriously until it became pretty obvious that

13:42

those who were pushing the

13:44

project took it very seriously indeed.

13:46

And there was then a good

13:48

deal of conflict within the

13:50

city between those who wished

13:53

to get the stadium built and

13:55

those who felt that it

13:57

really wasn't a good use of ratepayers.

14:00

money, particularly ratepayers money that the

14:02

city didn't have, nearly all of the

14:04

money was borrowed. The

14:07

stadium started off with the claim

14:09

that it would be entirely privately

14:11

funded and it was pretty easy

14:13

to demonstrate that no stadium of

14:15

the type that was proposed was

14:18

remotely capable of making the kind

14:20

of return that was going to

14:22

attract any significant private capital whatsoever

14:24

to the construction. But nevertheless

14:26

that line was pursued right through to

14:28

the end. The final outcome was

14:30

that where is initially we were promised

14:33

that it would be entirely privately funded

14:35

at the end of the day virtually

14:37

none of it was. A lot of

14:39

the private funding was actually revenue that

14:42

is ticket sales and sponsorship deals and

14:44

things like that which couldn't

14:46

really be considered to be capital contributions

14:48

to the construction of the stadium. So

14:51

basically the ratepayer ended up with as

14:53

near to 100% of the cost. There

14:55

were a couple of million dollars for

14:58

sponsorship fees. I think there were virtually

15:00

no donations eventually. It might have been a

15:02

few hundred thousand dollars something like that but

15:04

it was certainly a very

15:06

very small percentage of the total

15:08

build which eventually with all of the road

15:11

modifications and the extras that had to be

15:13

paid for came to the thick

15:15

end of a quarter of a billion dollars.

15:17

But do you think Dunedin's got something good

15:19

out of it? No. What

15:22

Dunedin got was a roofed

15:25

rugby stadium and the

15:27

problem is that because the stadium

15:30

was built exclusively really

15:32

to meet the needs of professional

15:34

rugby which wasn't actually in any

15:36

position to generate any net

15:39

revenue at all it was heavily

15:41

compromised for every other purpose. A

15:43

lot of people are really supportive of the Dunedin

15:45

Stadium and say it's been a great asset to

15:47

the city. Well that depends upon what you look

15:49

at the outcomes of it. I mean we were

15:51

basically told that this thing would pay its way

15:53

but it's done no such thing. When

15:56

you're looking at the amount of money we're talking about we're

15:58

looking at a quarter of a billion dollars. billion

16:00

dollars essentially to support it

16:05

is not in any way a

16:07

good use for public money. The other

16:09

problem with the project is that it

16:13

rendered the city council financially

16:15

incontinent. There were a number

16:17

of things done in

16:20

order to stretch the elastic which have

16:22

proved to be subsequently excessively

16:24

fiscally damaging to the city. I

16:26

don't think that you really have

16:28

when you're looking at a

16:30

structure which is supporting a discretionary

16:32

activity, namely watching sport, generally

16:35

by the well to do because it's not cheap

16:37

to do that, being funded by

16:39

a number of people who have no interest

16:41

in doing that, not a great deal of

16:44

capacity to pay for it anyway. This isn't

16:46

good. To put this in perspective, as a

16:48

rate payer in Dunedin, by the time 25

16:51

years rolls around, which was when the

16:53

debt was supposed to be paid off,

16:55

the capital cost of the stadium

16:58

plus the interest plus the cost

17:00

of maintaining it will of

17:02

course me as an individual fairly

17:04

normal rate payer in excess of

17:06

$10,000. I

17:09

personally having no interest in rugby have a

17:11

better use for $10,000 to buy money than

17:15

building a professional rugby stadium for the

17:17

Otago Highlanders. Yes, but can I just

17:19

say Rob, some people are very

17:22

supportive of rugby and they want to go to

17:24

a rugby game and the amount of good

17:27

events that this stadium has brought to

17:29

Dunedin, I mean you've had concert after

17:31

concert, especially in years past. You've

17:34

also had the 2011 Rugby World Cup, surely

17:38

it brings some benefit into the city? I

17:40

don't think so because one of

17:43

the ways that these things are justified

17:45

is economic impact analysis. So there have

17:47

been a number of

17:49

economic impact analyses done on the

17:51

stadium. The problem is that they're

17:53

only half an analysis because the

17:56

city Managers

17:58

will promote the stadium. Idiom Onyx

18:00

economic impact which is related to

18:02

his revenue. About the economic impact

18:05

on a city which is related

18:07

to the cost of they structure

18:09

exceeds the economic impact to the

18:11

revenue considerably. You also have to

18:14

consider the economic impact of the

18:16

revenue once again generally flows to

18:18

the well to do. To.

18:20

The people who own the

18:22

motels who own the restaurants

18:24

who own hospitality operations. But

18:27

the expense, the negative economic

18:29

impact. Close. To the population

18:31

at large, it's also worth noting that

18:33

up until the professional error in rugby,

18:35

up until when they started paying their

18:38

plays, rugby was able to pay for

18:40

its own stadiums and did and it

18:42

looks very big ones and mind telling

18:44

them to. But. For some strange

18:47

reason the moment that this sport became

18:49

a business is also I became incapable

18:51

of paying it's own bill was in

18:53

terms of supporting it's own vineyards. Okay,

18:56

son loves not a rugby thin

18:58

and he is a firm believer

19:00

that professional sports should pay it's

19:02

own way. Yeah this is

19:04

once again way saying we need a

19:07

stimulant is a stadium we need drawings.

19:09

And we need roads And we need

19:12

clean water, all of which, in this

19:14

country have been very heavily compromised over

19:16

the last twenty five years. We do

19:18

not need laws, facilities for discretionary leisure

19:21

activities. I guess you're not a fan

19:23

of rugby? I. Am not a

19:25

fan of of what's cool pseudo currency

19:27

in school, that a sport which purports

19:30

to be a commercial operation when in

19:32

fact it relies on a law school

19:34

extraction of taxpayer money in order to

19:36

support it's operations. What would the Euro

19:39

tentative? rather main as this, the stadium

19:41

wasn't belt. What would he have liked

19:43

to have seen. of have had

19:45

the stadium in not been built the

19:48

rugby would have stayed at carries pro

19:50

but the end of the day yeah

19:52

terrorists broke but of perfectly satisfactory arena

19:54

obviously it may not have had the

19:56

the best of war masses milk that

19:58

the modern athlete three But

20:01

it was a perfectly functional rugby pitch

20:03

and if that was all that the

20:05

Otago Rugby Football Union and the Highlanders

20:08

could pay for out of their own

20:10

commercial and non-commercial income then that's the

20:12

venue that they had. What about a

20:14

venue for concerts and big

20:17

arena concerts and the like? I mean isn't

20:19

it good that Dunedin holds these events? It's

20:21

good for some people but it's bad news

20:24

for a lot more than that. It's

20:26

a case of which is going

20:28

to give you the more good. Should

20:31

Mrs Wiggins be able to have her dinner

20:33

and sit in a house which is above

20:35

freezing or should someone have the

20:37

right to go to a print concert? Is that

20:39

trade off? I

20:48

personally believe that Mrs Wiggins should be able

20:50

to heat her house and have her tea.

20:53

Other people may believe that the rights of

20:55

the pink concert goer trump those of Mrs

20:57

Wiggins and she should dive hypothermia. I

21:00

personally don't subscribe to that view. If you live

21:02

in Dunedin and you want to go and see

21:04

a pink concert you either buy yourself a DVD

21:07

or you go to a centre which is big

21:09

enough to support that kind of

21:11

a venue. But

21:15

once again I do not believe

21:18

that your desire to

21:20

watch pink live trumps the

21:22

right of Mrs Wiggins to stay alive.

21:24

Would you say that Christchurch is a

21:26

size city that can maintain that kind

21:28

of stadium that you were talking about?

21:31

Certainly I mean one of the most fortunate

21:33

things that happened to the Forsyth Bar Stadium

21:35

was at the moment that it was completed.

21:38

Every alternative venue in Christchurch was flattened

21:41

by the earthquake. I think it's very

21:43

unlikely that even had the

21:45

existing facilities in Christchurch being available they

21:47

would have attracted any of these big

21:50

concerts down to Dunedin because Christchurch has

21:52

the audience and the infrastructure and the

21:54

hotel rooms and the international

21:56

airport which this city doesn't have remember. I mean

21:59

I've been told that. essentially moving a

22:01

concert down to Dunedin is

22:03

a major scale pain in the arse and

22:05

if they can avoid it they will. Yeah

22:07

well yeah to that one in Christchurch do

22:09

you think that it's worth building this stadium

22:11

there? Are they going about

22:14

the right way and funding it or was it

22:16

a repeat of Dunedin? No for exactly the same

22:18

reason that I believe that the right of Mrs.

22:20

Wiggins equivalent in Christchurch to stay warm and stay

22:22

fed trumps the right of people

22:25

who have the discretionary income in Christchurch who

22:27

want to watch a live concert. If

22:29

they want to watch a live concert then

22:32

this should be something which that

22:34

industry can support out of their own money.

22:37

And in spite of the easy money being

22:39

on an Eden Park refurbishment in Auckland, Rob

22:42

reckons our civic leaders will pull a

22:44

surprise out of the hat and suggest

22:46

a new stadium be built in the

22:48

middle of Auckland. And I would assume

22:50

because they're already beginning to ramp this

22:53

up it will be said that if

22:55

the city support this private money will

22:57

build the facility well there's no chance

22:59

that private money is going to build

23:01

that facility. I mean you can put

23:03

that over your mind right away. If

23:06

you build this stadium let's say by

23:08

some miracle it comes in on budget and

23:10

on time which it won't but let's say

23:12

that it does you're gonna have to generate

23:14

after all of your expenses have been paid

23:17

160 million dollars a year to justify the

23:22

use of that private capital in that

23:25

building. That's three million dollars a week.

23:27

That works out more or less. But

23:29

if you were going to say that

23:31

private money was going to build that

23:33

stadium that you'd need

23:36

an Ed Sheeran concert fully

23:38

booked in that concert every

23:40

working day for 25 years. It's

23:43

not ever going

23:46

to happen. Forget about it. That's

23:51

it for today. The detail

23:53

is funded through RNZ and Enkid on

23:55

Air. The suicide was engineered by Phil

23:58

Bench and produced by Alexia Russell. Thanks

24:00

to Brian Finn and Rob Hemland. I'm

24:03

Tom Kitchen. Ka kite anu.