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1:55

Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi

1:57

wa Barakatuh It

2:00

is your sister and friend, Adar,

2:02

and you're listening to the Digital

2:05

Sisterhood Podcast. When

2:07

we decided as a team on the theme

2:09

for this season to be fighting for faith,

2:11

we believed in telling stories like the ones

2:13

you've heard thus far. I mean,

2:15

we told powerful stories of women who are

2:17

fighting in war zones, fighting Islamophobia in their

2:19

government, and in society they live in, but

2:22

ultimately fighting in the eyes of

2:24

the world. The story

2:27

I'm telling you today, however, is not a

2:29

woman fighting on the outside. Rather,

2:31

it is a story of a battle within. Before

2:34

we begin, I want to remind you

2:36

to keep your heart open to this episode. When

2:40

we talk about community and cultural

2:42

change in our Ummah, we believe

2:44

that the change starts with us.

2:47

So Bismillah, let me

2:49

introduce you to Intasar. I'm

2:53

a Somali American. I

2:55

am absolutely, I just

2:57

adore my family, and that's a big part of who I

2:59

am. I was born

3:02

and raised in Hargisa, and

3:04

then like everybody, we packed our bags during

3:06

a number of difficult years, and I started

3:08

our life in

3:10

the U.S. So I am part

3:12

of that early Somali community that came

3:14

in the early 90s to the U.S.

3:16

and started life there. So that's a

3:18

big part of who I am. And

3:22

then when I really think about outside

3:24

of those big parameters,

3:26

I'm funny, I'm

3:28

lighthearted, I'm somebody who's in

3:30

the nonprofit world and you

3:32

know, thinks a lot about the

3:34

tension of like being exactly who I am in

3:37

my family, in my community, but also like having

3:39

to do work in a place

3:41

where power is such a big component of

3:43

how people interact. So I'm a

3:45

little serious, I'm a little, I'm

3:47

a big thinker, but alhamdulillah, the most important thing

3:49

is I'm Muslim, I'm Somali, I'm a woman, and

3:51

I'm really happy about all of that. What

3:55

would you say is your earliest memory of Hargisa if you remember

3:57

it? Because I'm not sure how old you were when you left.

4:00

But if you do remember anything, what do you

4:02

remember of back home? Oh man, it's bits

4:05

and pieces of memories, but I left when I

4:07

was five. And I

4:10

just remember, I think, the most important

4:12

things. I remember being playful. I remember

4:14

playing soccer with my brothers. I remember

4:17

cooking and being fed by my mom.

4:19

I remember all the good stuff

4:21

that I think parts of our childhood offer. But then

4:23

I also just remember hard parts. Like we were moving

4:25

around a lot. I was like, how did I end

4:27

up in Hammers? How did I end

4:30

up in Nairobi? How did I end up in the

4:32

US? So I remember parts of that journey as well.

4:34

But again, from a perspective

4:36

of like it shattered memories, but like

4:38

good and bad and indifferent. So Hanzula,

4:40

I appreciate all those memories as incomplete

4:43

as they are. How

4:45

did you guys end up in the US? Did you

4:47

guys get that golden ticket to come to America and

4:49

live that white picket fence that they often, you

4:52

know, sell? Now you know there's no white picket

4:54

fence. But you

4:57

know what's so crazy? It's a dream. Like

5:00

I think a lot of our parents still have,

5:02

immigrant parents still have. You know, coming to the

5:05

West is like, you know, and to some degree

5:07

it did open opportunities. But to some degree it

5:09

did disappoint them. And some of it caused more

5:11

problems. Some parents would say coming

5:13

to the West caused more issues than

5:16

it did good. So it really depends on who you

5:18

speak to. But how did your family end up in

5:20

the US? We were really

5:22

lucky. We were lucky in many ways

5:24

that I honestly have a hard time

5:26

encapsulating. But my family ended up being

5:28

the kind of family that

5:30

was somewhat well off. I would say maybe

5:32

in today's terms we were lower

5:34

middle class. And because of where we were

5:36

in our neighborhood and ultimately where some of

5:39

my siblings were working, we got in touch

5:41

and we had normal kind of relationships with,

5:43

you know, aid organizations, the UN being one

5:45

of them. And

5:48

one of my family members was working in that

5:50

office. They had an office in Hargay said early in

5:52

the 80s. And through

5:54

that interaction and just where we were and our

5:57

place in life, we were lucky to have kind

5:59

of that served us when the war broke

6:01

out. And so, of course, actually in any kind

6:04

of place around the global south,

6:06

when there are eight organizations that are not

6:08

from the country, they have offices,

6:10

they have staff that come from all over

6:12

the world. And that facilitated for us a

6:14

connection, a communal connection. And when

6:16

something happens, they fly out, they close

6:19

business, they close the office, they have

6:21

all these evacuation rules. And so what

6:23

ended up being a conversation and a

6:25

connection between my family member who worked

6:27

with the UN and then the war

6:29

working out and the status that my

6:31

father, Allah, alhamu had, we

6:33

were able to say, we need help, we

6:36

need evacuation too. But evacuation looks very different

6:38

if you're from the country and the people

6:40

who are fighting are also of the country.

6:42

So I remember ultimately we came through a

6:45

resettlement agency and we were

6:47

identified as families who were vulnerable. And

6:50

like everybody, we marched from Hurdeza

6:52

to Hamar, Hamar to Nairobi

6:55

or Isli at the time and

6:57

then started our journey of becoming

6:59

basically asylum seekers to the US.

7:02

So alhamdulillah, I mean, that took a couple

7:04

of years, but ultimately we were sponsored by

7:06

a family and we loved

7:08

the family, we were still connected to them and

7:11

they were one of the main reasons that we

7:13

found a safe haven ultimately to

7:15

start our lives in the US. So

7:18

the golden question was, and I always love asking the

7:20

question, what was it like coming to America? You

7:23

know, like what would you think was coming? I

7:25

think it was ghetto. Let

7:27

me just be honest, because the stories that, because I

7:29

was young, so I can just hold on to the,

7:32

what was like the marketing needs

7:34

that our parents were told. And

7:37

then from like the possibilities to

7:40

the dreams, to the abs, to

7:42

miss and disinformation of what America

7:44

would look like. Ghetto

7:47

lies, but you know what? There was

7:49

this behind all of it, because

7:51

sometimes when you're on the run, you know,

7:53

it's a little bit of a mirage. Yeah, you can't

7:55

see if there's water there, but you're willing to move

7:57

towards it. So I think ultimately from a very romantic.

8:00

perspective many, many decades later, it

8:02

all worked. But I

8:04

remember, remember by my family,

8:06

like having discussions when we

8:08

were the in between places,

8:11

whether it was, you know, in a refugee

8:13

camp or, you know, just fighting for our

8:15

lives in Italy and Nairobi, like, we remember

8:17

this vision that my uncles and my mom

8:20

built for us. And I know they got

8:22

that from other families. And I know then

8:25

somebody who was in the processing,

8:27

you know, within the how you help resettle

8:29

families, how you get them ready culturally. There

8:31

are a number of stories that ended up

8:33

building a layer. And I just remember one

8:35

story where my mom was like, once

8:37

we get there, you

8:39

can expect milk to be delivered in

8:41

front of your door. You ain't even

8:43

got to worry about buying things. You

8:46

can expect never to hear gunshots

8:49

ever again. It's going to

8:51

be quiet. It's going to be lovely. It's

8:53

going to be delightful. We

8:55

are going to find places

8:57

where food is abundant. We

9:00

are going to find school where you

9:02

can, you know, learn. We're going to

9:04

make new friends. I

9:07

look at that both as, yeah, it

9:09

has all the parts, the good, the

9:11

dreamy, imaginative parts. And then

9:13

the reality of once we got there, we

9:16

got there in a part, and I'm not going

9:18

to say it because I have family and friends

9:20

there, a part of the Bay Area where you

9:22

absolutely heard gunshots because it was violent. And you

9:24

know, so some of those dreamy structures came crashing

9:31

down, but the others, I think, served

9:34

the purpose because we were

9:36

like, this is it. So out

9:38

of curiosity, how the heck did you handle that

9:40

language barrier? Like, how are you telling them like,

9:42

when you when they ask you weird things or

9:44

invited you to places like how did you maneuver?

9:48

Yeah, no, it's I

9:50

didn't know what I was doing, honestly, but

9:52

I am really lucky that those best friends

9:54

that I made and the

9:56

great school are some of my closest and remain my

9:59

bestest of friends. until today. So

10:01

me and some of my girlfriends will still

10:03

talk and honestly like one of them a couple years ago

10:05

was like you know um, do you

10:09

remember like when you used to like walk

10:11

from school to grab you know some food

10:13

at McDonald's and then we'd go home

10:15

because we lived right next to each other I'm like yeah

10:17

she goes you know sometimes I don't think you understood what

10:19

I was saying and I could

10:21

tell her three decades later I

10:23

was like girl I can speak English.

10:30

Yeah, it does absolutely. But

10:33

I'm glad, Mashallah, that I find it really cool

10:35

that they still, you guys are still friends even

10:37

from that and they can you know testify your

10:39

growth and all that it's really really cool actually

10:41

to see that. So when

10:43

did I guess learning about yourself change

10:45

and become a bit more difficult?

10:49

When did you start feeling because you know everybody in

10:51

high school for me was pivotal. People, everybody

10:53

had different eras but for me high school was kind

10:55

of like the year those years were the most informative

10:57

trying to figure out who I was. Yeah. And the

10:59

things that I was coming up with at the time

11:01

I didn't like you know because all

11:03

at first all you see is what you're

11:05

not. Yeah. You're not this. Yeah. You don't

11:07

have like silky straight hair, you don't

11:09

have this, you don't have that, you know

11:12

and then obviously the social economic states are

11:14

not being able to change the things that

11:16

you want to change and you know everybody

11:18

had the different ebbs and flows and I

11:20

guess their self exploration. What was yours like?

11:22

Yeah, yeah. Mine was really complex

11:24

I think in ways that I was

11:28

used my siblings and what they were going

11:30

through as kind of like I would watch

11:32

and I would observe and I would learn

11:34

both how to be on the straight and

11:36

narrow and be conforming to how my mom

11:39

and my father and my family wanted us

11:41

to resettle in and integrate. How much do

11:43

you integrate? How much do you not integrate

11:46

in some of the areas that are culturally or

11:48

religiously or socially going to be an area where

11:50

there's an unfit but between like

11:52

middle school and high school I would say

11:54

those two big chapters is

11:57

where I contained all of my

11:59

anxieties around. who I am and who I

12:01

was becoming and then where

12:03

I was practicing how to be a

12:05

young adult by putting myself in situations

12:07

where I could confirm, oh, okay, I

12:09

like this. Oh, I don't like

12:11

this. Oh, I really love basketball, but it's

12:13

coming a little bit into clash with how

12:16

my mother and my sisters are in terms

12:18

of young women and the

12:20

role of young women. So I

12:22

think those two chapters contained for

12:24

me the usual questions

12:27

and growing and areas

12:30

of self-exploration, but I

12:32

always had this other thing. I always

12:34

had this other thing that I

12:36

wasn't quite sure if I could

12:38

share with everybody or that felt

12:40

like it was matching everyone's, you

12:42

know, exploration. I felt more rare

12:45

in my ability to feel

12:47

safe in myself about, you

12:49

know, interactions with the opposite sex or

12:51

the same sex. And so

12:54

for some reason, I remember

12:57

I was going through those years

12:59

quite as normally as possible, but

13:02

then I had this inner struggle

13:06

that I wasn't able to share and I wasn't

13:08

able to understand, but I felt, oh, this

13:11

is not, I don't see it

13:13

reflected back in my home and in my culture and

13:15

in my society in the US. So let

13:17

me hold on to it because it's got more questions than

13:19

answers, but everything else I followed

13:22

kind of the similar pursuit of any other

13:24

young woman, you know, following

13:27

the template that my mom and

13:29

sisters had for me, Alhamdulillah, that was easy. It's one of

13:31

the greatest blessings of being the youngest. You can figure out

13:33

how much of that you buy into it. You can be

13:35

a little bit of a rebellious young

13:37

woman, but ultimately it is a template that you

13:40

don't have to create. What would

13:42

you say with your first moment when you realized you

13:45

felt differently than the template that you know,

13:47

and that was around

13:49

you? Yeah, I felt a great

13:51

sense of comfort and activities that

13:54

almost always put me in like what

13:56

we socially called tomboy. So I felt

14:00

like, Oh, I don't feel great wearing

14:02

dresses, even though I wore skirts and

14:04

dresses, but I had this inner like,

14:06

Oh, I want white, even

14:08

though the clothes fit, how come my inner personality

14:11

doesn't fit? So I was like,

14:13

Wow, this is kind of hard. I don't see

14:15

my sisters having a hard time. And obviously my

14:18

brothers had their own templates that they were fulfilling.

14:21

And then a second time where I kind of

14:23

woke up to that part of

14:25

me becoming into like, I could

14:27

see it and as well as feel it was,

14:29

I was beginning

14:31

to have an aptitude around sports

14:33

that made my family

14:36

and friends, then give me a

14:38

narrative like this tomboyness,

14:40

this intimacy

14:43

and closeness and desire for

14:45

things that boys are doing. This is

14:48

not good. Because

14:50

this takes you out of the normal

14:52

way of a young girl growing up.

14:54

So I was like, Okay, I

14:57

feel naturally drawn towards towards them. But

14:59

I didn't make these conclusions about them. So I'm

15:01

having to edit, I'm having to begin to edit.

15:04

But inside of me is a young girl that's like, but but

15:06

why? But but then where

15:08

did you get it from? Then why are you drawn

15:10

towards them? So I kept those conversations

15:12

hidden. And then I plan

15:14

to just follow so I would be corrected by

15:17

my parents, I'd be corrected by my siblings. And

15:19

I would see, oh, majority

15:21

of girls act like this majority of boys

15:23

act like this. Well,

15:26

where's my community? And

15:29

or boy, what do I

15:31

do with this? How do I not become this

15:33

because there's no opportunity to be so I think

15:36

the fact that I felt unfit

15:38

around my social interactions became

15:40

more and more into clarity

15:43

as the social roles didn't

15:45

align with what I thought in myself

15:47

I could be and what I was

15:50

attracted to. I just

15:52

wrestled with that for many years and

15:55

figured, okay, I'm gonna be like my sister. So let me

15:57

just play that part. But it became

15:59

more and more difficult. It became

16:01

more and more difficult up until the last

16:03

couple of years of high school. When you

16:06

look back at that time, when you were first

16:08

identifying certain things that were different about you, do

16:11

you remember a moment or

16:13

a scenario that really broke your heart?

16:16

Yeah. Because it felt like, you know, like everybody

16:18

remembers the first heartbreak of yourself. Yeah. You

16:21

know, like for me, if I could share, was

16:24

in high school, you were

16:26

told if you were pretty or not.

16:29

There was no in between. Right. And

16:32

so when people identify you, you're not, you

16:34

know, no, no, no, no. You X amount

16:36

of reasons. And then it

16:38

messes with yourself, belief, and then you believe

16:40

I'm ugly. Yeah. That's a fact.

16:43

So let me, let me be

16:45

funny. Let me

16:47

be, you know, like everybody had that with me.

16:49

Yeah. And like, cause I had

16:51

a Zima on my face. I was a kid that was premature. I'm a lot

16:54

of issues. I was a kid that had issues all the time. Imagine

16:57

a kid just scratching away on their face,

16:59

bleeding and was always like sick and had

17:01

medications. And you know what? The thing I

17:03

broke my heart the most was my parents

17:06

didn't tell me. Yeah. That

17:08

there was something that was wrong. And

17:10

so I had to find out at school. Imagine people were like, yeah,

17:12

that's not normal. Oh man. That you're

17:15

like this, you know? Yeah. And

17:18

then, and then when there's no disruption

17:20

or understanding or context, it

17:22

becomes self police. Yeah.

17:26

And then like, I remember the first time

17:28

that it became this, I have to accept it.

17:30

Like, and then you live in that

17:33

world in that framework, but it's like a life

17:35

of like heart. It's a heartbreak. And

17:38

so anyways, what was, I guess

17:40

a moment or story that was

17:42

the heartbreak that changed

17:44

or became a catalyst of how you move in

17:46

the world. Yeah. Yeah. No,

17:49

I think that's such a great framing. And like

17:52

part of me just feels for you because there

17:54

is similarity in the stage when

17:57

you figure out you're

17:59

not part of the norm. or you assess that you're

18:01

not part of the norm. So I like, I

18:03

think for me, I had a dream. I

18:06

had a dream, like maybe

18:09

somewhere between 15 and 16. I

18:11

can't quite remember, but it was like

18:13

between those

18:15

two years and I had a dream, which today

18:17

I can tell you was pretty normal.

18:20

But back then just made me disconnect

18:22

for myself in the deepest way I

18:24

could probably ever describe. And that

18:27

disconnection is the beginning of that heartbreak.

18:30

And it was a dream that completely

18:33

took me out of myself on what

18:35

I thought, you know, I would be.

18:38

I dreamt of one

18:41

of my closest friends who was

18:44

on some of the same teams that I was

18:46

is a girl. And I dreamt that

18:48

I was closer to her in

18:50

the ways that young girls and boys are

18:52

close to like, let's say, obviously, this is

18:54

high school, people are talking about who's dating

18:57

who, who are you attracted to. So I

18:59

had one of those dreams where my first

19:01

attraction, at least in a dream sense, was

19:03

to a young woman. And

19:06

I just remember that

19:08

dream being part, okay,

19:11

I feel like that's okay. I feel like that's normal.

19:13

I don't think that that's strange. And

19:17

then I wake up and

19:19

I go, Oh, no. Oh,

19:23

no. Oh, what does this mean? It

19:27

felt like a heartbreak, even though I couldn't explain

19:29

it. But it was some

19:31

moment where I broke apart. It

19:35

wasn't a heartbreak because of someone else. It

19:37

was a heartbreak within me. And

19:39

it was like, wow, I had something

19:42

that was in this other

19:44

realm. That was so innocent. And

19:48

I didn't feel at all sad,

19:50

or I didn't judge myself in the

19:52

dream. But when I woke

19:54

up and I remembered, it was

19:56

like, Oh, no, that's not

19:58

normal. So,

20:01

I don't know what day

20:03

it was, but I just remember saying, oof, you've

20:05

got to forget this. You have to

20:07

erase it. You've got to erase

20:10

it because it might

20:13

be true, it might not be true, but just

20:16

put it away. You know, I

20:18

put it away. I put it away for many,

20:20

many years. But

20:23

at least it was a loss

20:25

of innocence. And

20:27

then, in a way, it was

20:30

the beginning of shame. After

20:32

years of feeling intense shame over what

20:35

was going on in her mind and

20:37

keeping it all bottled up inside, InSasan

20:39

was reaching her boiling point. There

20:42

was no part of her that understood how to

20:44

cope with what she was feeling or

20:46

how to ask for guidance. When

20:49

she finally got into college and was starting to form her

20:51

adult self, InSasan felt

20:53

distant with everyone. She

20:56

didn't have the common likes her friends did. She

20:58

couldn't even integrate well as she wanted

21:00

to. To understand

21:03

fully what she was feeling,

21:05

InSasan had to confront what

21:08

was really going on deep inside.

21:11

I was stuck and I was

21:13

frustrated and I was just, it

21:16

was exploding emotionally inside

21:18

of me and I just ended up asking for

21:20

help in one of

21:23

the Muslim gatherings where we

21:25

had sheikhs come on campus. And

21:28

I just privately talked to one and I was just like, I

21:31

don't know what's wrong with me and I don't know

21:33

what these feelings are. And

21:37

does God hate me? And

21:39

I don't think the responses I

21:42

got were, you know, didn't

21:44

confirm anything but it also had no answers for

21:46

me. So I was just like,

21:48

what in God's green earth, like what do

21:50

I do here? My

21:52

body's telling me something. My mind is

21:55

trying to keep it from coming out

21:57

but I am losing

21:59

sleep. And I'm feeling so

22:01

much shame. And I

22:04

can't talk about it with anyone.

22:06

And if I do, I get a

22:08

formula. Okay, well, don't

22:11

share too much. It

22:13

is a struggle for you. And

22:16

you should talk to an adult in your family, you should

22:18

talk to a girl, you should talk to a family. And

22:21

I was just like, wow, I feel like I have to do all the homework

22:23

now. I'm not going to do it. You

22:26

know, I'm not going to do it. So

22:29

I just, I

22:31

continue to struggle with it. And

22:34

I continue to seek answers from every imam

22:36

and shaykh that I would see as

22:38

I was developing my

22:40

spiritual and Islamic identity

22:43

and deepening it, alhamdulillah, with the community

22:45

around college. I just got,

22:47

I never got a satisfying answer. So the

22:49

shame journey continued. I just locked it up

22:52

until I could just breathe. And I locked

22:54

it up until I could ask someone else.

22:56

And I just kept getting the same formula.

22:59

This is not something you want to express.

23:01

This is not, this does not make Allah

23:03

hate you, but talk to somebody, talk to

23:06

somebody. This is not a way to live

23:08

life, this is not a way to

23:10

live life, this is not a way to live life. So,

23:13

alhamdulillah, I met a woman in one of those

23:15

like evening college talks about a

23:17

woman who was raped as

23:19

a young woman. And

23:22

I remember her saying, having

23:25

like similar issues about who she was

23:27

and what she was questioning and as

23:29

a heterosexual woman. So she didn't have

23:31

any kind of sexual dysfunction or

23:33

had the same problems I had. But she

23:35

definitely was on the journey of

23:38

figuring out. And she said, finally, I just went

23:40

to talk to an expert

23:42

and she said, I've talked to a therapist and

23:45

I'm working on healing myself. And those

23:47

words were so new to me. I

23:50

was like, what? It's not any

23:52

mom, it's not a mom, a dad. You

23:55

have people who you can talk to. So

23:58

I just like went straight to. to her after

24:00

the talk. And I was like, who's

24:03

what's what's therapy? What is this? And

24:05

I was the beginning of my

24:07

healing actually. Junior

24:09

year college, I was like, Oh,

24:12

okay. Well, let's

24:16

try this. Because I was always looking

24:18

for an answer. And the

24:20

pressure was growing. And the

24:22

shame was eating me alive. But to the

24:24

outside world, I was performing

24:26

fabulously. I was going to killing it

24:28

in school. I was doing wonderful work

24:30

outside of my studies. I

24:33

was in every, you know, MSA meeting

24:35

you could imagine. I was

24:38

flourishing to many. And

24:41

at night, when I'm just by myself, I was

24:44

on the verge of breaking down and shame

24:47

was just eating me alive. There's,

24:51

you know, there's a difference or

24:53

different moments where you could be attracted

24:55

to someone. And then there's, which

24:58

I think could be even really devastating is falling in

25:00

love with somebody. Have you

25:02

ever experienced, because, you know, attraction is

25:04

like, you know, you can feel

25:07

that with anybody. But when you fall in love

25:09

with somebody, you're particularly focused on that one person.

25:11

And the pain that you feel is like unimaginable,

25:13

especially if you can't be with that person. Did

25:16

I ever get to that point, did you ever find yourself falling

25:19

in love with somebody? I don't think

25:21

I had anyone that I fell in love with

25:23

in college at all, because I was just in

25:26

the depths and darkness of shame. If

25:29

anything, actually, I was

25:31

falling out of love with

25:33

myself. But I could just

25:35

see attraction confusing me. And I was just like hating

25:37

myself. I was like, I don't like me. I don't

25:41

like me. I don't like that I have to

25:43

do all this extra work and everybody else is

25:46

just like effortlessly like, I like

25:48

this, I like that. So I just

25:50

sat around all these like circles of

25:52

friends and strangers and could

25:55

just see how easy it was for

25:57

them to integrate all this parts of

25:59

their life. life, going to

26:01

school, getting a job,

26:04

hanging out, the little chirps of

26:06

like who likes who in

26:08

college, the love stories

26:11

that other people were having and here

26:13

I am like just pretending I was

26:15

from my life like just like wow let

26:18

me just perform when I get home I

26:20

could cry and I would

26:22

just cry I would cry I'd cry and

26:24

I was like man this life of mine

26:26

sucks and it's also kind of

26:28

funny because I'm like okay I'm done with me today I

26:31

gotta go do my homework I gotta do

26:33

this so I just started self-managing to just

26:36

survive but also being

26:38

there for all of my friends and

26:41

seeing like the happiness and you

26:43

know who like oh everything that I think

26:45

is such a normal part of what it

26:47

means to be a young person developing so

26:50

I think when everything

26:52

like broke down for me was my

26:55

first therapy session just cried

26:58

on on like minute

27:00

three she was like hi how are you

27:02

how's your day and I was like girl I got

27:05

issues I

27:07

got big problems girl she was like well what do you

27:09

mean what do you

27:11

mean I was just like I

27:14

think I think I'm gay she

27:16

was like then all like the

27:18

smiles left in her and then I hurt

27:20

myself I just wept

27:23

I wept because I was like

27:25

oh no it's like

27:27

letting the monster out so had

27:30

three other sessions with her and I booked

27:33

it I left couldn't handle it I

27:35

couldn't handle it because she then

27:37

actually helped me answer like okay

27:40

how do you feel when you say

27:42

that I was like I feel I

27:45

feel bad I don't like me

27:48

and then she helped me trace

27:51

it she's like do you remember like just

27:53

now do you remember how you

27:55

know that do you remember what happened to you What

27:58

is when you say attraction? What does it mean? We. They

28:00

say actual to what is it

28:02

mean So. Man,

28:04

despite how afraid I became, About

28:07

myself. I I can handle

28:10

more than three sessions, but

28:12

then. Then somehow good

28:14

a bit of me opened up and.

28:17

I. Entered like a whole new chapter and

28:19

I was like ah man or case,

28:22

what is what is being attracted to

28:24

a woman mean and I started looking

28:26

everywhere As Marisol me taxed almost every

28:28

brochure, everything started looking up and I

28:30

was like okay. There's

28:32

no space for me here. Goes

28:35

and then I would pretend

28:37

to. Like. Boys.

28:39

Are saying okay Let me ask my friends like

28:41

how do you know when you like a died

28:43

when I started becoming like a researcher and like

28:45

asking my friends like scenery like in what it

28:48

what is it means have you know if you

28:50

want to marry him and the more more I

28:52

dug deep into that the more I realized ah

28:54

man I just. I just collapse.

28:56

There was like extra work everyday.

28:58

Average west orange colored be back

29:00

and zero. And then. I

29:03

did phone. See. Them

29:06

as. Is as in

29:08

here for the digital Hi guys let

29:10

me tell you I need to put

29:12

you on the best public schools I

29:14

have had the pleasure. Of going on,

29:17

it's which you would want to me

29:19

sounds tedious. have. Club really was

29:21

sister. Get a way to treat

29:23

a seventy sixer. We see to

29:25

either America's Morocco work through not

29:28

as the with twenty incredible fool

29:30

yourselves. Now this isn't as I.

29:32

Mean he is a sanctuary for all

29:34

will be seeking to connect with Listen

29:37

eyes on the be hit the reset.

29:39

My and like we are desperately

29:41

needs and something I see this

29:43

I had the best time last

29:46

year. Like I have to say

29:48

it was such a game changer.

29:50

I have never traveled in that

29:53

way. As a Muslim woman association.

29:55

with such as and in a pod like

29:57

me not like meets the look and feel

30:00

Really daunting. I mean straight up scary. Okay

30:02

scary. Mookie Whatever you want to call it

30:04

the anxiety of the booking flights navigating

30:06

airports arriving in a foreign land among

30:09

20 women You've never met trust me.

30:11

I get it Don't worry

30:13

about fitting in being judged or even breaking the

30:15

news to skeptical family members crazy

30:18

But here's the thing every single woman

30:20

on our past trip has felt the same

30:22

way Let me tell you

30:24

what tries prize during those six days

30:27

is beyond words I

30:29

mean the sisterhood the bonds

30:31

the stories the just

30:34

it was just everything and more The

30:36

best part is you get to

30:39

be in a secluded location enjoying

30:41

amazing weather stunning relaxing scenery It

30:43

meant the scenery was actually unreal

30:46

Like you have to see it for yourself rich

30:48

assignment history and culture No, I love this history

30:50

of you love that you're gonna love this

30:53

Visiting sites like bucket lists like Alhambra

30:55

and the medus have been you said

30:57

I mean come and join us Don't

30:59

even think for a second we're going

31:01

on May 19th to May 25th to

31:04

Morocco and May 26th

31:06

to do first to Spain and

31:08

what promises to be a journey of

31:11

a lifetime I ensure it trust

31:13

me. It's not just a trip.

31:15

It's a life-changing experience waiting to

31:17

unfold visit go dot-getaway.com

31:22

Tds or head to our link

31:25

and buy to sign up. That's

31:27

go dot sisters getaway.com Forward

31:30

slash TDS or again head to

31:33

our Instagram page or in description

31:35

below in our episode in

31:37

the link bio to sign up Imagine

31:45

this You struggle with

31:47

something you can't share with anyone and

31:49

so you give yourself a tight rope learning

31:52

to live a Version of

31:54

yourself in public that's different from

31:56

the version of you in private And

31:59

so you give yourself rules before you

32:01

even understand the game. Hoping

32:04

and praying you don't

32:06

lose a part of you that you cherish most.

32:10

Your face. So you rip

32:12

yourself apart again and again

32:14

and again and again and then

32:18

put yourself back together hoping this version of

32:20

you matches up stronger

32:23

and without fault or at

32:25

least good enough for others

32:28

to accept. But

32:30

my question is for

32:33

how long? The

32:35

kind of person I am at this

32:37

point in my life is I'm out

32:39

of college obviously. I finished college by

32:42

then and I was in the workforce

32:44

and I was you know I was feeling myself I

32:46

was feeling maybe like you know if I put it

32:49

on a hundred percent scale I was like I should

32:51

breathe a little bit. I knew I

32:53

didn't have the answer but that moment

32:56

of again wow I

32:58

can say these words and God

33:01

isn't about to like take me out of the

33:03

world like okay I said something that scared me

33:05

but it doesn't mean it's the end but I

33:07

still don't have an answer or a template so

33:09

I'm like Alhamdulillah like you just have to just

33:12

take it day by day and

33:14

it was all accidental. I ended up working with

33:16

this person this

33:18

person and I quickly became friends

33:20

like everyone in the workplace become

33:23

friends and I knew when I

33:25

met her after

33:28

one of those long days at work I

33:30

was also becoming a workaholic which

33:32

is a whole nother story but one of those

33:34

you know post 5 p.m. work days where I

33:37

went out I got dinner from a local

33:39

joint near my office and I was about

33:41

to do maybe like three four more hours

33:43

of work and I noticed her she

33:46

noticed me and we just gravitated

33:48

towards each other and I was like

33:50

oh my gosh you know like how fun it is to have

33:52

a friend at work you know somebody who

33:54

shares your ethnicity she wasn't an East African woman

33:56

she was a black woman but who had a

33:59

very diverse ethnicity background. And

34:02

it was just easy to talk to this person.

34:04

And in my heart, I was

34:07

very much attracted to her physical form, as well as

34:09

her heart and her brain. So I was like, man,

34:11

I can't wait to get to know her. Somehow,

34:14

I also began to spend more time with

34:16

her even though either we were not in

34:18

the same division or department. So

34:20

I'm putting in effort here because I'm like, I

34:23

feel okay to have a friendship

34:26

with her. She doesn't need to know what I'm

34:28

feeling, but maybe she does also fine. So

34:30

I was just, I was feeling brazen.

34:32

I was feeling

34:34

comfortable for the first time. And I

34:37

was also feeling a little bit of

34:39

a trickster. Hmm. What do you

34:41

mean by that? Let's just see how it goes. You

34:44

know, I'm just putting that part of my heart away. I'm

34:47

like, let me just be a great friend. I

34:50

slipped and fell in love through

34:52

that. So I just

34:56

find and finally understood this

34:58

whole thing of being not just

35:00

attracted to somebody, but wanting to be near them,

35:03

finding them and who they are

35:05

physically appealing and seeing the

35:08

reaction that then I have easily

35:11

voluntarily without any work to then

35:13

like express that part of me

35:16

and say, a good

35:19

day with her is a good day for

35:21

me. I forgot about all

35:23

my problems. I

35:25

became extremely happy and

35:28

I would catch on to every word

35:30

that she would say, and I would look forward

35:32

to meeting it. And she met me with the

35:34

same kind of reverence and friendship and openness. I

35:37

was like, every time I see you, I

35:39

just want to hang out. I'm so glad we worked together. And

35:42

through those conversations and

35:44

the first year I was falling in love

35:46

and I wasn't sure if she knew this part of me because

35:48

I, every time, you know, we would talk about that. I would

35:51

just say, oh, you know, I'm, I haven't found

35:54

anyone yet. I haven't found my guy yet. It's

35:56

not still like performing, but

35:58

in my heart, I'm. I'm

36:01

beginning to feel everything that all my friends felt, but

36:05

just not towards the person

36:07

that they normally feel

36:09

for. So the

36:12

way I would think about it is coming

36:14

to work was the most fun thing in the world, getting

36:17

to know her in and outside of work was the most happiest

36:20

I've ever been. But

36:22

then the evenings were the same. Now

36:26

I'm in way more confusion than I've ever

36:28

been before. Now I know what

36:30

it's like to be in love. And

36:32

now I'm like, well, what are you going to do about it? We

36:35

thought it was just a small problem. Now if this is,

36:37

does she have to give up? You

36:40

can't have. So she

36:43

was somebody who I deepened my friendship with

36:45

to the point where she

36:48

herself later on told me that she

36:51

identified as bisexual. And

36:54

what I began to. Yeah,

36:57

she told you. She told me.

36:59

Wait, wait, wait. Let's take it back. How

37:01

did that conversation come about? Because at this

37:03

point you're both saying, you know, if I'm

37:06

the one, you're saying a guy, maybe

37:08

she has said it a couple of times. When did it become, hey,

37:10

like this is who I really am. Like, how did that happen? Just

37:13

through conversations and spending time with one

37:15

another and exploring and saying, well, how

37:17

do you identify? How do I identify?

37:20

So I came out to her much later, but like

37:22

through friendship in the beginning, I got to know everything

37:24

about her and she got to know everything about me.

37:28

But for a good chunk of like maybe

37:30

the first, I don't know, six, seven,

37:32

eight months, I was just like, yeah,

37:34

I think I'm, yeah, I haven't found my guy yet.

37:36

What about you? Well, I'm

37:39

not dating anyone. And then, you know, you

37:41

see each other, you build more trust, you see each other, you

37:43

build more trust. And she was like, this happened to

37:45

me when I was young. I

37:47

was like, oh no, what does that mean? Well,

37:50

I'm attracted to both men and women.

37:53

My mind was blown. So

37:55

then I tell her, I'm like, well, I guess

37:59

it's time to tell you. I'm

38:01

totally confused girl. I'm

38:04

totally confused. She doesn't know that I like her like

38:06

that now, but I'm just telling her like, wow, like

38:08

you feel comfortable with me. I feel comfortable with you.

38:11

And then in my heart, I'm definitely falling in

38:13

love with her. I'm not sure. She just sees me as

38:15

a friend, but I got

38:17

attached and bonded. And

38:21

I think once I

38:23

came out to her and then she told me

38:25

about herself, then naturally I

38:29

asked her, I think I

38:31

like you more than you like me. Allah.

38:35

And what does she say? Just quiet. And

38:40

she told me like part of the truth, but not

38:42

always. She goes, well, you

38:44

know, we work together, girl, and I just know

38:47

we're just friends, but I'm not

38:50

sure I shared those feelings, but I also

38:52

never looked at you like this before. So

38:56

she told me the truth. She was like, I don't

38:58

ever want to hurt you, but I don't think,

39:01

you know, that there's anything like that for me.

39:05

I'm just shocked. I didn't know.

39:07

Like, obviously I was going into a different part of who I am.

39:09

So I was like, okay,

39:12

let me deal with it. And we

39:15

took some time apart, but

39:18

ultimately we regained

39:20

our friendship, but like a lot more boundaries.

39:23

And she ended up becoming perhaps the

39:25

most important person in my life.

39:29

She told me about what happened to her and

39:31

how she came to be who she is. And

39:34

I chose to kind

39:36

of put my feelings aside and suffer

39:40

in heartbreak with all that stuff and then feel like,

39:42

okay, what can I learn from this person? What am

39:44

I going to do? But

39:46

I knew I was in love. Like I knew. Like

39:49

even if it was not reciprocated, I 100% knew

39:51

like, okay, this is what it means to

39:53

me in love. This is also

39:55

what it means to be unrequited love. But

39:58

man, like... so much

40:00

of that relationship that I could see what it was

40:02

doing for me and my journey, but

40:05

then I could see like, this is way

40:07

bigger than I thought. Not

40:09

only did Intasaur have to deal with

40:12

the newness and rawness of a heartbreak,

40:15

the previous feelings of shame she was used

40:17

to now had turned to

40:19

anger. I

40:22

was just angry at God. I was like, like,

40:24

how many ways are

40:26

you going to disappoint me? How

40:29

many ways are you going to close the doors?

40:32

And also like, I'm

40:36

done. I'm so done. It

40:38

changed actually. It was probably the first time I'm like, wow,

40:41

man, that's the first time I've ever been angry at God.

40:44

Like in a real way, I was like,

40:46

man, now I feel like God, you're being

40:49

so unjust to me. Like

40:52

you're not helping me. I

40:55

don't have any answers. You

40:57

put this woman in front of me that

41:01

lit me up, that made me feel

41:03

normal. And then this, like,

41:05

man, what did I do? What

41:08

did I do? Like tell me, help me, provide

41:10

a way. I can't imagine

41:13

like being in a place where you spent

41:15

so many years trying to figure it out.

41:18

So many years trying to hide it, somebody who's trying to repress

41:20

it and still feeling,

41:22

you know, short. And

41:25

it's not like you invited these feelings. Yeah.

41:27

I was not like, and then

41:30

not feeling supported. Oh, alone.

41:32

And alone. Yeah. Alone.

41:35

Alone. Oh man.

41:37

Like literally, it's just me in the car and

41:39

me banging on the wheels. I can't imagine where

41:41

that took you mentally. Like to

41:44

a place of like genuine exhaustion, you

41:47

know, mental and emotional exhaustion showing

41:49

up physically. Yeah. Yeah.

41:52

And it can't take you to a really like difficult

41:55

place at that point. Like here

41:57

you are. Like, how did you, like, how

41:59

did you? wake up the next day. Like how did

42:01

you like find a way to keep pushing moving

42:04

forward? I became numb actually.

42:06

I became quite numb the days and weeks

42:08

and months after that. On

42:10

the one hand, I have to like avoid

42:14

this person who I felt rejected by but at the same

42:16

time she's like I'm here to support like you know this

42:18

is normal. I went through this I'm

42:21

not feeling it because I'm like man let

42:25

me just give me time and

42:27

then I

42:30

had no desire to talk to God anymore.

42:32

I had no desire to pray. I had,

42:34

I became

42:38

numb for much

42:40

of that time

42:43

in my

42:45

workplace. I don't

42:47

care. I don't care. I'm done.

42:50

Like you know and I never

42:53

really had like any thoughts

42:55

of self-harm but I became

42:58

reckless in some ways

43:00

because I just I

43:02

just worked. I worked every day. I worked every

43:04

weekend. I left home

43:06

and I just isolated

43:08

myself and began

43:11

to emotionally eat longer than I ever thought

43:14

was possible. I didn't

43:16

care to be see my friends. I just

43:22

literally felt like God doesn't care and

43:24

I definitely now don't care. I

43:27

became a workaholic and just put everything into work. Just

43:30

numb everything else with food.

43:32

It's just being by myself and

43:35

I was like okay you know whatever. Like

43:37

I gave up actually a little bit. I gave

43:39

up. Like I let the rope go. I

43:42

let the rope go. I'm like

43:44

man God find me because I don't know.

43:46

I don't know what you want and I

43:49

definitely don't know what I like and what I don't like and what I

43:51

don't want but I don't want to be in the state of constant

43:54

heartbreak. So I'm going to let go

43:57

but in the beginning I didn't have

44:00

have an adversarial relationship with God. I

44:02

just had an acceptance

44:04

of Allah. Okay,

44:06

Allah is there. I

44:08

just got to find the ways to get to

44:11

Him. Yeah. You know, it's interesting because I've

44:14

heard of people who've changed

44:16

their beliefs to

44:18

fit their desire. Right. You

44:20

know, and here you are, a person

44:23

who's a Muslim who...you didn't change how

44:25

your belief system... Yeah. And that's the

44:27

part that I find so, like, remarkable

44:30

because all I know are people who've changed

44:33

in order to fit what they want. Yeah. But

44:36

you're a person who recognizes, I can't have both, you

44:38

know? And for you, that was a moment of, like,

44:41

you know, a low moment for you,

44:43

a difficult moment for you. But I

44:45

just...I want to understand why you didn't

44:47

switch up. The best

44:49

answer is I think that was the gift

44:52

that I had early on

44:55

was the way my mom introduced God to

44:57

us was, God is always going to be

44:59

there, you know? And

45:01

yes, you know, I came through the same mother's

45:03

day like everybody. So I was like, well, don't

45:05

anger God. Like, don't miss your

45:07

prayers. Like, you know, God is also a punisher. So

45:10

don't miss your prayers and don't do that. So I

45:12

had all those sort of early beginnings of meeting

45:15

where my, you know,

45:17

youthful self and what I could handle

45:19

in terms of concepts. I think, like, my mom did a

45:21

good job of being very, like,

45:24

halal haram and keeping me there until

45:26

then I can formulate my own deeper

45:29

relationship with Allah. But I

45:31

was so lucky that Allah, in the

45:34

way my mom introduced, in the way

45:36

my family, and even the way, like, I

45:38

started to practice, I was much

45:40

more of a positive God than

45:44

anything. But I was frustrated

45:46

because I was like, the tools Allah that

45:48

you told me I had access to, I

45:50

was growing up and then the tools were

45:52

not working. So this part, I

45:55

think was the first time I was like, just,

45:58

I just remember I was like, wow, this feeling of out anger

46:00

towards the truth. You took

46:03

whatever normalcy I should have, you took that

46:05

away. So now I started to blame what

46:07

I was feeling to God. Like I'm

46:09

giving up and I'm letting go. I ain't

46:12

praying no more. What for? I'm

46:14

not seeing the results. I'm not

46:16

seeing the compassion. I'm not

46:19

seeing also like if I've done something. So

46:21

I was also beginning to like develop

46:23

a sense of like tit for tat. I was like, well,

46:26

everything my family tells me is like, I'm a good person.

46:30

I haven't harmed. I used to like have these

46:32

conversations. Like I haven't harmed anybody

46:34

that you love God. So

46:37

I'm just like looking for an answer

46:39

for where this comes from. Because now

46:41

like what's stacking up is the heartbreak.

46:45

So I think I just felt not

46:47

just tired and fatigued, but I

46:50

was just like, okay, God, I'm

46:52

giving up on you because

46:55

yeah, I've

46:57

never in my heart thought that I could do both. I

47:00

was just first looking for the rules. That's

47:03

the way my mind was working. I was like, okay,

47:05

find the rules. Cause maybe somebody missed something, you know,

47:08

Paul Uma just missed somebody

47:10

missed the page. You know,

47:13

I was never thinking much

47:15

more deeply about the possibility. Cause

47:18

I was beginning to love a little bit of who I

47:20

was. I was beginning to see what that part of me

47:22

would actually look like in a person. I was beginning to

47:24

have, you know, these feelings. I was

47:26

like, okay, like I feel okay now, but

47:29

man, the lack of

47:31

sufficient answers plus the

47:33

heartbreak. Now I was in my

47:36

late twenties and I was ready to be like,

47:39

I ain't gonna fight you God,

47:41

but I'm definitely gonna let go. And you

47:43

did. And I did. And

47:47

that felt worse. There's a

47:49

joke of it. That felt worse. I was

47:51

like, wait a minute now after

47:54

eating all the things I could eat

47:56

after like not praying after all of

47:58

that, then I have the

48:00

greatest, like, you know, spiritual,

48:04

I felt a different sign of shame all of a sudden. I was like,

48:06

oh man. After

48:08

many, many months of not practicing

48:10

and completely isolating herself, Into

48:13

Saw's family began to question what

48:15

was happening. This is

48:18

what became the catalyst to her

48:20

wanting to change. It

48:22

was then she began looking for a

48:24

Muslim therapist. But eventually

48:27

she found something else. I

48:30

hadn't really ever traveled abroad, but

48:33

one of the practices I

48:35

fell into was something called

48:37

Hicma. A man in

48:39

Mexico who practices Hicma healing, which

48:43

is like slamming healing of a different

48:45

type. And apparently he had a conference

48:47

somewhere in Spain. Okay. A year later.

48:50

So I was like, oh, okay, maybe I got to go

48:52

see this guy. Yeah. But it's so far in advance. I

48:54

was like, okay, I got to save money. Yeah. Long

48:57

story short, I've had it for very different reasons.

48:59

I waited until I turned 30. And

49:05

on my 30th birthday, I was like, okay, I

49:09

think I need to go find this teacher.

49:11

He might be the man who Allah maybe

49:14

is supposed to connect me with. I,

49:17

to my work people, I'm

49:19

leaving. I've had a great time. No.

49:22

I'm going to cut this chapter short. I

49:25

turned 30. I take a trip

49:27

with some of my really good friends just

49:30

to celebrate that. And

49:34

I saved money and I

49:36

would make time to go to Spain to

49:39

speak to this expert who is an expert

49:41

of Hicma healing. Wow. He has a name.

49:43

He has a website. I'm excited.

49:47

And I had also

49:50

always in the back of my head. I just

49:52

remember some of the early headaches that I always

49:54

had a bond to. So I started

49:56

to say, girl, you might be like that guy who. had,

50:00

you know, the famous hadith where he ended up

50:03

killing like 99 people or something like that.

50:07

And he didn't kill anyone. But maybe you

50:09

need to figure out if you can make your own

50:11

sensitive. Maybe the medicine.

50:14

I started to really think deeply about

50:16

that hadith. Just to tell them like

50:18

the hadith is about a man who killed 99 people and then

50:20

he repented and all offer gave him all that like

50:22

formula and mathematics about like the email he

50:25

went to. Yeah, the fact that he was

50:27

not satisfied with that. And so he added

50:29

that brother to the list. Yeah. And then

50:31

he still went because someone told

50:33

him like go further. Get

50:36

away from the environment. Make

50:38

Hijra. And then he still

50:40

ended up on the right side of history. I think like

50:42

he ended up in the good list and I kind of

50:44

saw I was like, man,

50:47

you might be onto something here. You might

50:49

be onto something here because it's not

50:52

about the imams. It's not about these answers

50:54

that you've been seeking that you've not been

50:56

getting. You gotta move. You gotta go. You

50:59

gotta attack it. You gotta take no, no,

51:01

not for an answer. Yeah.

51:05

I mean, I'm trying. Yeah, I'm trying. I'm

51:08

taking long big breaks because life has the

51:10

light. Yeah. I'm trying and I'm like, okay,

51:12

I never saw it that way. Why would

51:14

you? You're not a

51:17

murderer. But for me, I was finding answers in

51:20

any, I was flipping every book and every page.

51:22

So I was like, okay, I think this

51:24

had ease. I could, I

51:26

could rework it. I could reimagine it because I

51:28

was like, okay, when things don't work out, yeah,

51:30

people make Hijra. Yeah. I gotta go make Hijra.

51:33

I turned 30. I saved some money. I know

51:35

this guy now. And I know he has a conference

51:37

in Spain. I'm going. I'm

51:39

going. You're going. I'm going. I'm taking life

51:41

into my own hands. And then I

51:43

told my family guys, I'm just going to travel to a

51:45

couple of conferences. Don't worry. It's part of

51:47

work. It was a part of work. I left my

51:49

job. I quit. That's crazy. You can't tell these family.

51:51

You can't leave a check. Like for

51:54

what you can't, but you couldn't even

51:56

tell them. No, unacceptable. And you can't

51:59

tell them what journey you're on either.

52:01

So like, okay, so

52:03

you pack up your bags, doo doo

52:05

doo doo doo doo. You take you get a one way.

52:07

Was it a one way ticket? Did

52:09

you have a return ticket when you went? No,

52:11

it's much more complex. It's much more complex.

52:13

First, I moved. So I

52:15

designed part of this year

52:17

off. I was like, I want a year off, but

52:19

I don't know how much of it I can plan

52:21

out. But I could plan out the first few months.

52:23

I told two

52:26

friends, and then I just left and I had

52:28

my Facebook available to me at the time. So

52:30

I was like, I'm just gonna journey this. And

52:32

the first place I went to was London.

52:36

I would go to a place, figure out who I knew,

52:38

and then see what the next journey was like. So

52:41

I went to London. I met

52:43

a friend, she put me in touch with another friend,

52:45

I took a train to Scotland. And turns

52:48

out, I had a great time. I

52:51

ended up hiking, I ended up like doing everything

52:53

that I thought was possible. And

52:56

then finally, from Scotland to Spain, I

52:58

would go because it's now time for

53:02

the conference. Inza Saar didn't know anyone at

53:04

this conference, other than the friends of her friends she

53:06

had found. But she quickly felt

53:08

the serenity, the peace in her heart.

53:11

She was finally learning how to deal

53:13

with the same sex attraction she was

53:16

feeling while also being Muslim, all

53:18

in the nature and company of Spain and

53:21

its people. It was the

53:23

most beautiful experience for her. So

53:26

I immediately found the organizer and I was like, I

53:28

came all the way from America. I

53:30

don't know who these other Muslims are, but I

53:32

need to have several sessions. Put

53:35

me in front of the list,

53:37

brother. I need several sessions with

53:40

the Hakeem. Period. And

53:42

we would go on long walks because

53:45

you should meet him either right after Fajr

53:47

or like in the evening. But he was a very busy

53:49

guy. So we would walk into courtyards

53:53

and I could tell him. I

53:56

could be like, I'm struggling with this. I

54:02

don't know what the answer is, but I feel

54:04

like I have to have an answer or else

54:06

I'm afraid I'm going to leave this space. And

54:11

I refuse to believe

54:13

that there is no answer for people like me. And

54:16

so I'm putting all my hopes on you. You've

54:18

got to solve it for me because like you... I

54:21

can't... I've been told no for so many times

54:23

and he just was like so gentle with me.

54:26

He's like, you're okay. I

54:29

can help you. You're okay.

54:32

Every part of me wanted to hug this man. But like

54:34

in an Islamic conference? You can't do that. You can't do

54:36

that. I'm

54:40

looking to... I have tears in my eyes.

54:42

I've never been told. I've

54:46

never been told like you're going to be okay.

54:48

I was like first... All I'm giving is some

54:50

like crazy for a Malay thing like okay

54:53

go ahead and live with it. You just can't ask on it. I

54:56

was like so tired of the

54:58

formula of... You

55:00

go ahead and contain it. You just can't act on

55:02

it because I told him. I said I've

55:04

been told that so like come with something else. I

55:08

came to come with something else because I've

55:10

been to the imams. I've been to the

55:12

masjid. Like this is not working. So

55:15

just for him to

55:17

recognize first you're going

55:19

to be all right. You're going to

55:21

be all right. How did it feel though? Like

55:23

genuinely on the inside when someone says that

55:26

to you after everything. Well,

55:28

I felt like it was like my

55:30

father had passed obviously when I was young. So I was

55:32

just like, oh man, like you may be white

55:34

but you feel like my father. I just

55:37

wanted to hug him. I honestly just wanted to

55:39

embrace him. Almost like he was like talking to

55:41

the child version of you, you know? Like

55:43

I'm a 30 year old but I'm really like five.

55:46

Yeah. It's a five

55:48

year old. I'm really five. Yeah. And

55:50

I just nobody's ever said you

55:54

are okay. You

55:56

are okay. Because

55:58

I'm here to solve a technical problem but he... was

56:00

solving like a deeper

56:02

issue. It's like, okay, we'll, we'll talk

56:04

about that another time. But I just want to tell

56:06

you, you're okay. And

56:09

what got me later

56:11

on, was he just went

56:14

on and on. He just like, oh, I

56:16

love you. Okay, I

56:18

can't think of this, or make me cry. Let's see. And

56:20

I just was like, I

56:23

couldn't take it. But I just

56:25

like also, if anything,

56:27

I needed to hear that more than,

56:29

more than breath itself. Because

56:33

I just come like, you know, on at

56:36

least like nine or eight months of

56:38

like not praying and not and not

56:40

doing anything and like trying to like,

56:42

just do a wide out of

56:44

my faith identity and my relationship with Allah.

56:47

I was on this journey of like, scratching

56:49

out all that part of me and he's like,

56:51

Ashley, are you okay? But

56:53

like, God loves you. And

57:00

like, that saved me. That saved

57:03

me. That saved the part of me.

57:05

I didn't know was in trouble. The

57:07

shirk did more than just save a part of

57:09

her that was in trouble. He

57:12

taught in Tassad the fundamental importance

57:14

of having good thoughts of Allah.

57:18

And while listening, the shirk

57:20

also reminds us of how important as Muslims

57:23

we are to each other, especially in

57:25

the ways that we speak to each

57:27

other, and the words that we use

57:29

to each other, speaking

57:31

to each other is so

57:33

powerful. Sometimes it's

57:36

the way that Allah says, inspires us to

57:38

say the right things into

57:41

people. The

57:43

way they're lost on time uses us. But

57:45

we can be vessels of

57:47

good. Allah, we can be vessels of

57:49

good and hide if we want to be

57:53

truly the highest honor. The

57:55

highest honor is when

57:57

Allah uses you for good. This

58:00

is a law used to shield for good, Princess

58:02

Art. Well, I taught me

58:04

so much, and I ended

58:07

up feeling like I

58:09

could now teach myself some things and put

58:11

my own world together in a way that

58:14

I was wanting to kind of outsource it

58:17

for so long. So I think he

58:19

helped me uproot the first

58:21

shame, which is that you're not loved,

58:24

or you're not lovable, or you're not worthy.

58:27

And that's not just from a human perspective.

58:29

The first despair is

58:32

Allah doesn't love you, Allah doesn't choose you,

58:34

and you are not created for

58:36

this. So alhamdulillah, I feel like

58:38

I just needed to fall into that

58:40

foundation and feel safe.

58:43

So that safety,

58:46

that someone like him who knew the

58:49

emotional turmoil and the shame, those

58:51

are the skills that the healers have and the

58:53

teachers have. And then I

58:56

think through a number of months

58:58

of working with him even after

59:00

I left Spain, I never knew

59:02

that some of what I had

59:04

gone through as a young child who was

59:07

sexually abused and

59:09

obviously exposed to trauma and

59:12

the resettlement chapters of me and

59:14

my family's life, I never reconfigured

59:16

them in a frame that was

59:19

satisfying, in a

59:21

frame that wasn't medical, in

59:23

a frame that wasn't disease-oriented. So

59:25

I had to get a little

59:27

technical now, but I'm much more

59:30

older, and I can handle complex

59:32

concepts now. So I had

59:34

been thinking only of the frames

59:36

of the therapeutic world, the non-Muslim

59:38

therapeutic world. It's your thoughts. And

59:41

if it's not your thoughts, take this issue and

59:43

go practice it, because how else would you know

59:45

for certainty what you are and who you

59:47

are attracted to? So I

59:50

quickly learned that we

59:52

have our own frames, and

59:54

they're flexible and expansive. And this is what

59:57

I was looking for when I was a

59:59

young child. talking to these imams who wasted

1:00:01

my time to be honest, but you know Allah be blessed

1:00:03

with them. And I was just all

1:00:06

of a sudden the concept of fitrah.

1:00:09

Okay, talk about it. What happened

1:00:11

to you at

1:00:14

a young age that

1:00:17

introduced a

1:00:19

disconnection, disintegration

1:00:21

and ultimately

1:00:23

confuse your sense of

1:00:25

self which ultimately Allah

1:00:28

has founded on the

1:00:30

principle of fitrah. Your

1:00:32

natural, normal body, spiritual,

1:00:34

metaphysical conception. That

1:00:36

positionality and that concept and

1:00:39

that framework saved me because I was dissatisfied

1:00:41

with all the other ones because I'm like

1:00:44

I always

1:00:46

had a deeper dissatisfaction with go

1:00:48

try it out. So just to

1:00:50

be clear, Western therapies we're saying

1:00:52

is that in order to know if you're

1:00:54

for example have these same-sex attraction is to

1:00:56

act on it. See where that takes you.

1:00:58

Is that what that means? Is that what

1:01:01

they were? Yeah, that's exactly it. These

1:01:04

are either thoughts that you have to control

1:01:06

but most likely when it comes into the

1:01:08

space of sexual identity,

1:01:11

if you don't have the normative reaction

1:01:14

then it is encouraged and

1:01:16

this is nothing absurd

1:01:18

but you explore and you date and

1:01:20

that builds your certainty. That builds your

1:01:23

yerin about who you are. Only

1:01:25

difference is that actually

1:01:27

could be harmful and

1:01:30

then it builds your self-acceptance but then you

1:01:32

also you just the

1:01:34

thing that I hadn't quite come

1:01:36

into full grasp was the

1:01:39

sexual harm at an early age didn't

1:01:42

make me gay but for sure it confused me

1:01:45

and it's called sexual dysfunction and

1:01:48

so there is that part of

1:01:50

dealing with when a fitra breaks

1:01:52

at an early age because of

1:01:54

that. Number one part of your

1:01:57

bodily spiritual cognitive reaction is

1:01:59

you are in a state of confusion.

1:02:01

Wow, I did not know that. Yeah. So,

1:02:04

and then on top of that, this,

1:02:06

I have a friend who once called

1:02:08

it incongruence, this battle now between your

1:02:11

ideal Muslim self and then your actual

1:02:13

Muslim self, the faith has a

1:02:15

particular answer. And in order for

1:02:17

me to get comfortable behind it, I have to answer

1:02:19

for myself, okay, even if what happened to

1:02:21

me didn't happen. This

1:02:25

same sex attraction is

1:02:27

accepted in Islam, but

1:02:29

has these limitations and boundaries. So I learned

1:02:31

a lot about where the origins of those

1:02:33

limitations and boundaries are. And

1:02:36

then finally, for me, the liberating aspect

1:02:38

of then who I would become and

1:02:40

how much agency I would have, and

1:02:42

actually quite honest at an age where

1:02:45

it's appropriate, I made a choice. Now

1:02:47

I feel like I can get behind my choices in life.

1:02:51

Now I can feel like I have

1:02:53

the frameworks that I didn't have before. I

1:02:55

have a sense of education and confidence and

1:02:58

wellbeing that I didn't have before. And

1:03:00

I have this expert who has done so

1:03:02

much work in Islamic

1:03:05

healing and psychology. And so he's sharing

1:03:07

the tools in a way that is

1:03:09

more digestible to me. So I

1:03:12

dealt with the, okay, my

1:03:15

natural disposition, like everyone, the way Allah made

1:03:17

everyone is fitra, but in a

1:03:19

human world, in Dunia, fitra can be broken. And

1:03:24

that was, you know, and

1:03:26

so that already takes away shame

1:03:29

because Allah does not love you so

1:03:32

you are gay or, and or

1:03:34

it takes away the limitation of choices that

1:03:36

you have. So all of a sudden I

1:03:38

was like, okay, I've never felt comfortable going

1:03:40

out and being in

1:03:42

a same sex relationship, but I

1:03:45

have these feelings. So Allah is the one Allah

1:03:47

doesn't hate me. In fact, he loves me.

1:03:50

Number two, here's a framework that I wish

1:03:52

everyone had access to. And

1:03:54

the framework is fitra. And when the fitra is broken,

1:03:56

you can recover it and you can go back and

1:03:58

you can heal yourself. started

1:04:00

really getting into and co-creating with

1:04:02

this teacher, you know,

1:04:05

like, okay, actually, the

1:04:07

it's, it's an Iptela, but it

1:04:09

doesn't end your life. And by the way, like all

1:04:11

these concepts about like, if you have a broken dish,

1:04:14

the Japanese have a way to say

1:04:16

we're never meant to be perfect. And

1:04:18

you can put the dish together. And

1:04:21

it's called like katsugi. Yeah. So like

1:04:23

all of a sudden, I'm such a

1:04:25

participatory person. Yeah. And my healing, you

1:04:27

are your conscious, your conscious kind

1:04:32

of lawyer. You know, your conscience.

1:04:36

And you have a way to get answers

1:04:39

that you can't, because I think the Hanala,

1:04:41

like the legal ease, you know, so far

1:04:43

with people like me in the community that

1:04:46

is like me, it is we give them

1:04:48

the legal ease answer. We give them the,

1:04:50

if you are this, you are okay, but

1:04:52

you can't act on it. But that leaves

1:04:55

99% of

1:04:57

the journey and the curiosity and the

1:04:59

healing and the choice making. I

1:05:02

like my teacher me, I never

1:05:04

forced myself to choose to live

1:05:08

in a lifestyle where I could definitely

1:05:10

practice all of my attractions. And

1:05:13

I, and or, which

1:05:15

would require certain compromises and

1:05:18

or that I would just ignore this and

1:05:20

put it in a box and never to

1:05:22

live again. Those are false choices. Those

1:05:25

are false choices. Islam

1:05:29

gives you the boundary, but

1:05:32

then you have this life where you

1:05:35

can experience everything,

1:05:39

everything else so that you can be whole. And

1:05:41

I really believe a lot meant all of us to be whole.

1:05:44

You can be whole and you can

1:05:46

craft that path because right now, individual

1:05:48

shame plus societal shame, religious

1:05:50

shame, it all exists. But there are people who

1:05:53

will help you craft the

1:05:55

best choice that you can make for yourself. And

1:05:57

I'm now in the midst of crafting some

1:06:00

of the best life choices I've ever had and

1:06:03

not feel like I have to compromise myself or my

1:06:05

faith. I have

1:06:07

a life where I'm

1:06:09

thinking and designing like what a

1:06:12

healthy partner looks like,

1:06:15

what a life, if Allah grants

1:06:17

me, of motherhood looks like, sounds

1:06:19

like, and feels like, you know?

1:06:22

I'm excited for the new era. So you

1:06:24

know SubhanAllah, like what is your mindset around finding

1:06:26

a partner now? So

1:06:29

through healing I can

1:06:31

design the kind of

1:06:33

partnership and marriage that

1:06:35

satisfies our parameters as

1:06:38

Muslim, but also fits

1:06:40

with exactly what my needs are, intimacy to

1:06:42

everything else. So that's just like the work

1:06:45

of adulthood and that's the work of healing

1:06:47

and that's the work that I know I

1:06:49

needed to do for me in my life.

1:06:51

It doesn't mean that it's for everyone. The

1:06:55

other thing that I think that's helped me arrive

1:06:58

at this point is I've met so many Muslims

1:07:00

who are in this space I used to be

1:07:02

in and or are in this space that I

1:07:04

am now and I'm giving

1:07:06

back. So I spend a lot of my time

1:07:08

privately giving back to those young people

1:07:10

who are just like me when I was 14 and

1:07:13

15 and 16, who

1:07:15

are falling in love and who

1:07:17

are asking themselves these questions and who

1:07:21

want to know what are the choices they should make and

1:07:23

how they should make it. So I have

1:07:25

now a community that I didn't have

1:07:28

before. Allah has not only given me

1:07:30

a hakim, a teacher and many

1:07:32

teachers have come since then, but now I have a

1:07:34

community and I can say for those

1:07:36

who choose to live a life that's similar to mine, there

1:07:38

is a way. There is a way. It

1:07:42

is not without difficulty, but there is a way. Once

1:07:46

you work through recuperating

1:07:48

and really rebuilding and restructuring your

1:07:50

fitra, if you so choose,

1:07:52

then you can have a life that

1:07:54

fits your needs and a male who can

1:07:57

come into it and add to it. But if that doesn't happen, I would

1:07:59

love to. also like honestly really

1:08:01

fine. I have a community, I can

1:08:03

take care of myself, and

1:08:05

I can look at all the scenarios of my

1:08:08

life from the perspective of what is the quality

1:08:10

of my life if I never marry, what

1:08:12

is the quality of my life when I'm in

1:08:15

deep community with the people who reflect a

1:08:17

little bit of who I am, and we

1:08:19

are fighting to live a

1:08:22

life that is joined up with

1:08:25

what Allah hopes for us. And

1:08:27

you know it's not a friction-free world, but I think

1:08:30

like to me I

1:08:32

have inner peace, and I have

1:08:34

a relationship with Allah, and

1:08:38

I have restored my relationship with myself. By

1:08:41

the grace and mercy of Allah,

1:08:43

Subh'anaHu Wa Ta'ala, Intasad is finally

1:08:45

in a space where she is

1:08:47

comfortable with who she is. She

1:08:50

is close to Allah more than

1:08:52

she's ever been, and can finally make

1:08:55

choices for her iman first. Now

1:08:59

it's important for her to help

1:09:01

those who are in the position she was

1:09:03

once in. Intasad wanted

1:09:05

to share some of this. For

1:09:08

the Muslims and or anyone who is

1:09:11

dealing with what I dealt with, you're

1:09:13

gonna find your hakim. You're gonna find your

1:09:15

teachers, you're gonna find your community, you're gonna

1:09:17

find everybody who will see

1:09:20

in you the beauty that you have and

1:09:22

not judge you by the struggle that

1:09:25

you're given in life. I know

1:09:27

we live in political times, and I know

1:09:30

like Islam has a very

1:09:33

beautiful and stable and

1:09:36

confident principle around this

1:09:38

issue, but it's not

1:09:41

a complete for the people who need to

1:09:43

divine a life. So

1:09:45

I would say like yeah

1:09:47

the principle of alhamdulillah, like

1:09:49

Islam says you are okay,

1:09:52

you have boundaries though. That

1:09:56

is such a different perspective

1:09:59

that other people of faith have

1:10:01

towards people who have same-sex attraction.

1:10:04

It's usually, you are not okay,

1:10:06

you should be ashamed, you should go away, and

1:10:09

actually there you're gonna not only have a terrible

1:10:11

time on earth, you're gonna be in hellfire. So

1:10:14

one, I just recognized the message

1:10:16

of Islam and that it is

1:10:19

inviting and it's not destructive and

1:10:21

it really builds someone in a holistic

1:10:24

way. So despite the politics

1:10:26

at hand, the Sharia is clear,

1:10:29

but there's so much that

1:10:31

needs to be developed in our community.

1:10:35

And we should not be agents of shame, we should

1:10:37

be agents of mercy and agents

1:10:39

of self-discovery and agents that

1:10:41

help someone

1:10:44

prepare their fitra

1:10:47

and be empowered and be the

1:10:50

most informed, you know,

1:10:53

informed Muslims and human beings we can

1:10:55

be. I think lead with

1:10:57

empathy, lead with empathy. We have our

1:10:59

communities now. We

1:11:01

have Muslims who are using

1:11:03

Islamic frames and who

1:11:06

are creating community and I'm

1:11:08

really proud that of all the institutions, the one that

1:11:10

I know, the one that helped me out was

1:11:12

the Aqeen Institute. They held a discussion I

1:11:15

think a few years ago on this and

1:11:17

there's a few Muslims who are private, but

1:11:19

we have a community and you can find

1:11:21

that community. I'll give out the links and

1:11:24

I will say, yeah, may Allah protect us

1:11:26

from those who are going to cut the

1:11:28

rope between us and Allah, whether they're Muslim

1:11:30

or not. Okay, because I protect my

1:11:32

relationship with Allah from Muslims and

1:11:35

non-Muslims because those who

1:11:37

are with you, yeah, they're

1:11:40

gonna be like, how can we

1:11:42

help? How can we be your sister

1:11:44

or brother in Islam? So

1:11:46

please, the attitudes

1:11:48

that are bringing shame, that are bringing

1:11:50

people to despair, whether they

1:11:53

happen in an Islamic, you know, community or

1:11:55

not, everyone knows.

1:11:57

Everyone knows Allah is kind and merciful.

1:12:00

is clear, but find your way, find your community.

1:12:02

There is a way to live with this, there's

1:12:04

a way to bring community,

1:12:07

and there's a way to restore everyone's

1:12:09

fithra. So, you know, I'm not here

1:12:11

for hate, I'm not here for politics,

1:12:13

but man, I'm grateful

1:12:15

to be the kind of Muslim

1:12:17

that is all about repair. The

1:12:20

truth is, you had

1:12:23

enough to fight within will

1:12:25

always be the greatest fight you'll ever have. Whether

1:12:28

you're fighting the dark and looming thoughts, telling you

1:12:30

you're not good enough to be a Muslim, or

1:12:34

fighting against a desire, or fighting

1:12:36

against systems, at the end

1:12:38

of the day, it's a score on

1:12:40

the board in your fight with you that'll

1:12:43

count the most. It's

1:12:45

you alone before Allah in the

1:12:47

end. So

1:12:49

ask yourself, what's the

1:12:51

score? How are you

1:12:53

really doing now? Are

1:12:56

you winning? Or

1:12:58

is something else winning? Or

1:13:01

are you judging others instead because their tasks

1:13:03

look different than yours? You

1:13:06

know, we started this podcast

1:13:09

purely to share a good word. Our

1:13:12

intentions this season was to demonstrate all

1:13:14

the ways people are fighting for faith.

1:13:17

In my humble opinion, those who are fighting

1:13:19

in secret in this way for the sake

1:13:21

of Allah subhana wa ta'ala are

1:13:24

our greatest examples of piety. I

1:13:26

mean, think about it. She did

1:13:28

it without an applause, without

1:13:30

support from others, kind

1:13:33

of like a fasting person, except

1:13:36

that nobody knows their fasting, except

1:13:38

Allah. Now

1:13:40

I understand why it's one of Allah's favorite acts

1:13:42

of worship, the kind

1:13:45

of private worship that can only bring you closeness

1:13:47

to Allah. And

1:13:49

as the story plays out, we can

1:13:51

clearly see Allah chose and

1:13:54

decided for Intasad closest

1:13:56

to him and only him. How

1:13:59

lucky is she? Qut'jat'al,

1:14:03

qut'jat'al qut'jat'al

1:14:06

Qut'jat'al, qut'jat'al

1:14:20

...such advancing and

1:14:54

as for those who were in awe of

1:14:56

standing before their Lord and

1:14:58

restrained themselves from evil desires, paradise

1:15:03

will certainly be their home. I'd

1:15:11

love to give a big, big, big shout

1:15:13

out to our production team for this

1:15:15

incredible, incredible, insightful episode. I want to

1:15:18

give a shout out to our associate producer,

1:15:20

Hway Bizaidt, our lead producer, Hannah

1:15:22

Avin, our writer, Lemisa Chowdhury, our

1:15:24

sound designer, Yousif Delazu, our production

1:15:26

manager, always, Meheen Khan, Bashir. I

1:15:28

also want to give a shout

1:15:30

out to our marketing and design

1:15:33

team for everything, Waseema Salada,

1:15:35

Sosan Abdulahi, Khadija Musseh, and

1:15:37

Maria Sean. You guys did amazing,

1:15:40

phenomenal. Thank you for this episode.

1:15:43

Last but not least, I have to give a big shout

1:15:45

out to the cover artists who always seem to kill it.

1:15:47

Like, every single one of you guys are superstars of what

1:15:49

is going on, how to refine you. I want to give

1:15:51

a shout out to this artist in

1:15:53

particular for creating such a beautiful cover art.

1:15:56

Wow. Lima Ali, you did your thing,

1:15:58

sis. Thank you so much for this. cover art. If

1:16:01

you enjoyed this story then donate to

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our LaunchGood crowdfunding campaign. TDS

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has come a long, long way

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Ramadan and donate to

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That's launchgood.com/ S-U-P-P-O-R-T-T-D-S.