0:28

Hey

0:28

there! Here we are again. It's

0:31

another Just Cast. You may

0:33

be aware, as I am, that

0:35

I can breathe this week, which is incredibly

0:38

good news. And my nose is working.

0:41

I hate to tell you all this medical stuff, but it's been

0:43

going on. And yesterday, just for good

0:45

measure, just because I feel like, you know, let's keep

0:47

me

0:48

on my toes, I had a colonoscopy as

0:50

well. Woo-hoo! Um,

0:52

two little, tiny little polyps,

0:54

apparently. I'm gonna be fine. Not dead yet. But

0:57

it's great! Spring is here. And I'm feeling

1:00

better, which is always a good

1:03

thing. And I am

1:05

particularly delighted

1:07

this week to start

1:09

a conversation about something that, obviously, we've

1:11

talked about on the dish for many years, and that's always

1:14

intrigued me and pushed me in ways that

1:17

I don't find very comfortable, which is veganism.

1:21

And the morality, or

1:23

otherwise, of killing and eating

1:25

animals, if you put it in a rather blunt

1:28

kind of way. And so I was talking

1:30

to Chris about this and trying to find

1:32

somebody who engaged who would be really interesting

1:35

on this. Not a, not a, not a, not a,

1:37

not a soy boy, so to

1:39

speak. Anyway, we have with

1:41

us a man called John O'Burke.

1:44

John O'Burke is an animal rights advocate

1:46

and social media professional. He

1:49

once served as the director of New Media for the

1:51

Humane League and as the director

1:54

of communications for vegan outreach.

1:56

Now he's just an independent animal advocate.

2:00

that means. He's both a vegan, but

2:02

more importantly, he's a power lifter, as I

2:04

can see in studio. You

2:07

can be vegan. And, Jacked,

2:10

welcome to the dish cast, John.

2:13

And also, he's in the studio with me

2:15

today, which is wonderful. Thank

2:18

you for coming in, John. Nice to meet you. Andrew,

2:20

thanks so much for having me. It's a real honor to be here.

2:24

And he is. If you have

2:26

an image, as I do, in my

2:29

head, of your average

2:32

pathetic pajama boy vegan, sitting

2:34

there with his master's degree

2:36

in

2:37

critical

2:38

gender theory and munching

2:40

on the occasional piece of fennel.

2:43

Oh, contraire, here you have John Oberg, this

2:46

strapping young muscle bound power

2:48

lifting. Looks like he just walked

2:50

out of some kind of MMA class as

2:52

the vegan. So, first of all, John, congratulations.

2:55

You have completely defied the

2:57

stereotype just by walking in the door. Thank

3:01

you, Andrew. I think that's important as

3:03

an advocate for animals and veganism to try

3:06

and break some stereotypes.

3:08

And vegans face a lot of stereotypes,

3:10

so I am happy to do my part. Yeah.

3:13

It's funny how

3:15

sometimes that kind of just matters, even

3:18

though it shouldn't matter. I mean, this is the

3:20

world completely ridiculous. How

3:22

someone looks should not have any bearing

3:25

upon the cogency

3:27

of their argument. But the truth is in

3:29

the world, in public,

3:32

these things that I remember just

3:34

being out as a gay person like 30 years

3:37

ago, when not many people

3:39

were out, by just showing

3:41

that gay people were a variety of different

3:43

kinds of people, that the way

3:46

you previously identified them might have

3:48

been just confirmation bias and

3:50

you just wouldn't see the gay man in front of you. So

3:54

it was helpful, just helpful. It

3:56

didn't mean you better than anybody else. It

3:58

didn't mean that.

3:59

You were somehow a superior sort of gay

4:02

to more stereotypical kind of gays. It doesn't

4:04

mean any of that. It just meant you helped

4:07

Loosen up the atmosphere culturally in a way

4:09

to help people engage the actual

4:11

argument. I guess that's what that's

4:13

roughly how you see it Yeah, pretty similar

4:16

concept. You know, I think that

4:18

we need to be vegans need to be relatable

4:20

and we need people to be able to see We

4:23

need people need to be able to see themselves in

4:25

our shoes And I think that if all

4:27

of us I don't know dress a certain way

4:30

or act a certain way. I think that

4:32

that

4:34

will hinder our ability

4:36

to influence others and I am

4:38

all about influencing the people who

4:40

aren't already like me it's all about Influencing

4:43

non vegans because you know These are

4:45

the people out there who can make a difference

4:47

for animals because a vegan can't get any more

4:49

vegan, you know I'm trying to have

4:52

Don't you have other vegans who aren't quite

4:55

as extreme vegan as you that you can bend your life

4:57

beating up on isn't the most progressive

5:00

activists do other than actually trying to persuade

5:02

the other side they just Lecture

5:04

each other on who's the most

5:07

work and who's the most most being but anyway, I'm

5:09

just obviously that sort of It's a rhetorical

5:11

question. Tell me where did you grow up? Where

5:13

were you born? So I was born in Detroit, Michigan

5:16

grew up in the surrounding area and I grew

5:18

up

5:19

mainly with just my mom who

5:22

Raised me and really instilled a sense of compassion

5:24

for animals and you know the innocent.

5:26

What does that mean? What does she do? So

5:29

she so she had a really big heart for animals

5:31

and she really taught me that you know animals

5:33

are also

5:35

Deserving of our compassion in our consideration

5:37

and our respect and so for years We

5:40

did things like TNR which would be trapping

5:42

nutrient and releasing feral

5:44

cats for example so that you know They didn't

5:47

breed uncontrollably and you know this

5:49

really reduced a lot of animal stuff We did

5:51

other various animal rescue efforts

5:53

and we protested deer hunts particularly

5:56

a cull that took place at

5:58

a park that we

5:59

went to on a regular basis that really

6:02

broke our hearts. And my

6:04

mom really installed this sense

6:06

of compassion for animals in me. Where did

6:09

she get that from?

6:11

That's a good question. I always kind of wondered

6:13

that. And unfortunately, my mom passed away

6:16

seven years ago. So I can't ask

6:18

her now where she got this, but

6:21

it's something that she had for basically

6:23

the entirety of her life. And

6:25

it's something I've had for the entirety of my life as well.

6:28

She used to tell me this story about

6:30

how when I was just a little baby,

6:32

I was just laying in

6:35

the middle of the living room floor,

6:36

and our cat kind of rolled

6:38

off the couch onto the floor. And

6:41

I was so worried. I crawled

6:43

over the cat and was petting them to make sure

6:45

they were OK. And so apparently, it's

6:47

been in my

6:49

genes all along as well.

6:52

Yeah, but what did she do for a living? My

6:54

mom? Yeah, I want to understand your mom. Because

6:56

she's obviously, everything

6:58

you say, she is in some ways the inspiration

7:01

for your life. Yeah, my mom had

7:03

some physical issues that prevented her from

7:05

work.

7:07

We would do everything we could to make ends meet. As

7:10

a single mother, it was really hard.

7:12

We grew up without much money.

7:14

Something we would do is. You were the only son? Yes,

7:16

yes. I was the only child. And something we wouldn't do. What

7:19

happened to your dad if you don't mind asking? Yeah, he

7:21

was never in the picture. So it was

7:23

just my mom and I. And something we

7:25

would do to make ends meet is that we would

7:28

go to local parks. And so

7:30

in the state of Michigan, in

7:32

the 90s, I think it might be the still the

7:34

same way. I'm not sure. But in the 90s,

7:36

at least you get 10 cents for a can. If

7:38

you return to the grocery store and we would

7:41

go to local parks in

7:43

Michigan and we would go from trash

7:45

can to trash can searching through to

7:47

find empty aluminum cans

7:50

and we would get a few hundred over

7:52

the course of a few hours and over the course of a

7:54

day, you know, that would give us 10, 20, 30 bucks. That

7:57

would then go towards our bills. And this

7:59

was. was the kind of thing

8:01

that my mom and I would do together. And

8:04

it was, looking back, it was certainly a great bonding

8:06

experience. And it was actually

8:09

something that happened then that really

8:11

taught me how to use

8:14

my love for animals and turn it into advocacy. And

8:17

so my mom and I, we would go to

8:20

this park called Stoney Creek.

8:22

And Stoney Creek was a state park.

8:25

And there were

8:29

dozens of garbage cans across numerous

8:31

small parks within this large park. And

8:34

so we would spend much of the day going there

8:36

and we'd start in the early morning. And we had to start

8:38

really early at the crack of dawn because that's,

8:41

you know, you get there before other people got there. It was this

8:43

competitive thing. And so my

8:45

mom and I would do this. And in the mornings,

8:48

there was almost nobody else in these parks,

8:50

but there were deer. And

8:53

we, it was sort of majestic. You know,

8:55

you'd be walking from trash can to trash can.

8:58

And while you're

8:59

on your little walk, you see these deer

9:01

popping their head out and looking around and

9:04

looking at you curious about who you are. And

9:06

we really sort of developed kind of

9:09

a bond with these animals. And

9:11

it was sort of special. And

9:14

we did this for years. And then one

9:16

day we learned the heartbreaking

9:18

news that this park wanted

9:21

to cull these animals. And

9:23

cull is a very polite term for slaughter

9:26

these animals, to kill these animals who

9:28

never

9:29

faced anything like that prior.

9:32

And we were... Why? Because

9:34

there were too many of them or there were diseases or something?

9:36

Yeah, you know, it was, they said that there was too many

9:38

of them. You know, my personal opinion then

9:41

and still is today is that they were just looking

9:43

for a reason to shoot these

9:45

animals because they enjoy this.

9:48

It was, you know, the hunting lobby was pushing

9:50

for this at the time because they

9:52

wanted to, they enjoyed the process

9:55

of hunting. But hold on, but the park itself,

9:58

there must have been some precipitating.

9:59

event that would require them to cull, right?

10:02

What was the reason given? Yeah,

10:05

so keep in mind this I was eight or nine years

10:07

old then, so it was a little tough for

10:09

me to remember the exact details, but

10:12

from what I can remember the DNR,

10:15

yeah there was herd thinning and the DNR

10:17

was you know buddy buddies with

10:19

the hunters and us as two...

10:22

The DNR is... The Department

10:24

of Natural Resources in Michigan

10:26

and at this park and you know

10:29

us as two lone

10:29

animal advocates who are you know walking

10:32

around from trash can to trash can to get empty

10:34

bottles you know we didn't have much sway,

10:36

but something that really did

10:38

something to me and this is you

10:41

know for me at the time as an eight or

10:43

nine year old I would have been sad about this but

10:46

not done anything about it, but my mom she

10:48

did not sit back and rest on her laurels what

10:51

she did was she said Johnny we have

10:53

to do something about this and so she

10:56

called up every local news station

10:58

got as much media as she possibly could and

11:01

she took me and her with

11:03

homemade signs and went

11:05

to the entrances and the exits of this park

11:08

and we stood

11:08

there day after day showing you know

11:11

everybody who went into the park or exited the park

11:14

showing them these signs that showed that

11:16

you know kind of expressed our compassion

11:18

for these animals. What did the sign say? One said being cruel

11:23

isn't cool another one said something

11:25

like save the deer and...

11:27

But John isn't I

11:29

mean isn't aren't

11:32

you isn't that exactly why people find vegans

11:34

irritating? It's

11:36

like there may be surely there

11:38

are reasons occasionally why there should be

11:41

culling of herds I mean there are I mean

11:43

I I hear there are maybe there isn't

11:45

enough for them to eat you know

11:47

within a particular maybe they're running

11:50

out of territory I don't I don't know all the answers

11:52

to that but it seems to me

11:55

that to argue and

11:57

we'll get back to you we get back to your childhood but

11:59

argue that that the only reason that

12:02

people might want to hit these herds because they

12:04

just like killing animals seems a little

12:07

harsh. Yeah, I mean, again,

12:09

I am- Maybe they do, I don't know, but there

12:12

are arguments otherwise. But anyway, you

12:15

and your mom were doing

12:17

this. How old were you? I was

12:19

eight or nine years old. So it was like the mid-90s.

12:23

And it was something that taught

12:25

me that I think you need to, when you

12:27

see an injustice going on in the world, that

12:29

you don't just sit back and let it happen, you do what we could.

12:32

And what I think- Did your mom ever, did

12:34

you ever have meat growing up? Yes,

12:36

so I grew up a meat eater.

12:37

My mom ate meat for most of her

12:39

life. She made a distinction. So

12:41

yeah, so we collectively made a

12:43

distinction between the

12:46

animals who we loved, cats, dogs,

12:49

deer, and so on, and the animals who were

12:51

on our plates. And it wasn't until years later that

12:55

we both made that connection.

12:58

And so we

13:01

decided as a team that

13:04

we were going to try and stick up for these deer and

13:06

we would pro-they're killing

13:08

it. And my mom had strategy for

13:10

it. It wasn't just taking signs

13:12

to try and look cool or something.

13:15

We weren't cool. It was Michigan, it was winter,

13:17

it was cold as hell. And it

13:20

wasn't a fun process. You'd have

13:22

some people give us the middle finger. A

13:24

few people would maybe honk and support. Did you win?

13:26

So unfortunately our cries

13:29

eventually, they sort of fell on deaf

13:31

ears and it didn't

13:33

work out. But what this experience

13:35

taught me was that when you do see

13:37

something in the world, that's not that you

13:40

don't agree with or that you want to fight against, you

13:42

do something about it. And that was what

13:45

really taught me that advocacy

13:47

is something that

13:48

every animal lover should

13:51

certainly engage in because

13:53

the animals have a lot

13:55

working against them, but they do have a few

13:58

people who really want to make.

13:59

their lives better in the world of kinder

14:02

place for animals and that's where I thought my

14:04

role could be which you know and that's

14:06

where your mother really came from was she a religious

14:09

person or was she she was not

14:11

a religious person she just she loved

14:13

animals and she loved me and we had a really

14:15

great relationship dogs and cats yeah yeah we had

14:17

cats we had we had turtles

14:20

as well and you know so I

14:22

grew up around these animals but you know I think that

14:25

most people in the United States at least grow

14:27

up around animals and I think

14:29

that

14:29

the

14:31

vast majority of would

14:34

the vast majority of us would never want

14:36

cruelty to happen to these animals

14:38

absolutely allergic to cruelty exactly

14:41

exactly you know you ask anybody in the

14:43

street hey do you think animal cruelty is acceptable

14:46

everybody's going to say no everybody you know how

14:48

hard is it for us to get everybody

14:50

to agree on one thing it's almost

14:53

impossible almost nobody agrees in

14:55

anything but almost

14:57

everybody agrees that animal

14:59

cruelty is wrong yeah but then

15:01

you have two two words there and

15:04

animal and cruelty and we have to unpack

15:06

that right because I think

15:08

people inherently

15:10

we have we make distinctions within

15:13

the animal kingdom and there are different ways

15:16

of doing that right because now it's your

15:18

view that all

15:20

life all animal

15:22

insect any kind of organism

15:24

is never to be

15:27

eaten never to be consumed

15:29

by another animal because

15:31

one of the the key facts

15:34

of the planet is that is

15:36

that animals exist

15:38

by eating each other this this is this

15:41

is universal it is not all this

15:43

is there there are obviously some that did eat just

15:45

plants but a hell of a lot of us creatures

15:48

on earth eat other creatures and this seems

15:50

to be integral to our evolution

15:53

integral to natural selection integral

15:55

to our ability to survive so what your

15:57

argument is really a moral rejection

15:59

Let me put it this way, of reality.

16:03

Well, that's why I'm glad you're having me on the show today,

16:05

is to kind of unpack animal cruelty.

16:08

Okay, let's do it. And

16:09

what I believe is that we

16:12

need to look at all sentient life, so all animals

16:15

who have the capability of experiencing

16:17

pain, which we all recognize as

16:20

pain is bad. And if you are

16:22

hearing this and think, oh, pain isn't bad, burn

16:25

your finger on the stove. Yeah,

16:27

but there are varieties of pain, obviously. Some

16:29

pain is essential because if we didn't experience

16:32

pain, we wouldn't learn to avoid danger.

16:35

I mean,

16:35

experiencing some level of pain as

16:38

animals is actually crucial to our survival.

16:41

Exactly. Pain, I'm not saying that pain

16:43

doesn't exist for a good reason, but unnecessary

16:47

pain being caused to animals.

16:50

Let's say an ant

16:52

is squished. Can

16:56

we use the word pain to

16:59

describe that? Or

17:01

as opposed to, say, sticking a needle

17:04

in a grown adult? I mean, it

17:06

seems to me that the brain's

17:08

potential to understand pain and

17:11

to process it is, if

17:14

pain is the threshold,

17:16

then you must have some way of determining

17:19

to what extent each individual animal

17:21

will experience pain, right? Yeah,

17:24

so pain is universal

17:27

to sentient creatures, and there

17:30

is a lot of data

17:32

to still be collected and sifted through when

17:34

it comes to the complexity of insects.

17:37

But I think it's important to realize and recognize

17:40

that

17:41

farm animals, for example, absolutely

17:44

feel pain. Yeah, we'll get to them in a

17:46

minute. I'm trying to get to the very basics here.

17:49

That ants may not feel pain in any way that we could

17:51

possibly. Maybe it's anthropogenic

17:53

of us, entirely anthropomorphic

17:55

of it,

17:56

anthropomorphic of us to assume

17:59

that animals are

17:59

experience pain in exactly

18:02

the same way that we experience pain, partly because

18:04

we have brains, these huge brains that can think

18:06

of pain in the past, can remember it, can

18:08

think of it in the future, all sorts of things that

18:11

may not make pain as the same

18:13

experience for

18:15

animals. Would you concede there's some point

18:18

at which

18:19

an animal becomes sentient like

18:22

a human or like in a way that we

18:24

could understand and use the moral language

18:26

of pain? And up until then they don't,

18:29

after that they do. Is that where you

18:31

were getting it? Yeah, and I'm

18:33

on the favor of erring on the side of caution

18:36

because

18:37

pain is such an awful

18:40

experience and the kinds

18:42

of pain that we can inflict on others

18:45

is so massively bad. It's

18:47

so massively just wretched in

18:50

some ways. If I lean back

18:52

and I've squished a bug, right, and I

18:54

didn't really mean it particularly, or if I'm just

18:56

batting one away and I kill it,

18:59

I can't find that to

19:01

be morally horrifying. It just intuitively

19:03

doesn't horrify me. Yeah, so for one,

19:06

I want to make very clear, Andrew, that the

19:09

vast majority of my advocacy is for-

19:12

Where would you start? Where

19:14

does an animal begin to be of

19:17

moral

19:18

importance? If

19:21

they're sentient, if they're able to feel pain. They're

19:23

all sentient. They're all sentient. If

19:25

they're able to feel pain. Well, what is an

19:27

able to feel- How about a turtle?

19:29

Yeah, I believe

19:31

that turtles feel pain, just like I believe that

19:34

cats and dogs feel pain, just like I believe that pigs

19:36

and cows and chickens feel pain, and

19:38

therefore we should take steps

19:40

that reduce the suffering that these animals experience.

19:44

Let's take a chicken in a cow. Surely

19:47

they experience it differently.

19:49

Sure, they experience lots

19:51

of things differently, but if

19:54

you kick a pig,

19:57

they are going to react similarly

19:59

to if you kick a dog. which is going

20:01

to act similarly if you kick

20:03

a human. You know, they are going to

20:06

react and they are going to clearly

20:08

experience something that they do not

20:11

want to experience. And

20:13

it is up to us as people who are making

20:15

choices every single day that matter

20:18

to

20:20

beings that feel pain to try and

20:22

reduce this suffering. What

20:25

about when animals inflict terrible

20:27

pain on other animals? Yes, so

20:29

there is a lot of cruelty. Tearing

20:32

another animal apart. It does not have

20:35

any interest in protecting this

20:37

other creature from pain. In fact, it

20:40

is almost terrifying to watch the cruelty

20:42

of animals. So, why

20:45

does that? I mean, at some point,

20:47

you must be adopting a

20:49

different standard

20:50

for humans than you are for animals. Well,

20:52

I am glad that you are bringing this up because there

20:54

is certainly a tremendous amount of cruelty

20:57

and suffering in the animal kingdom,

21:00

even excluding

21:01

humans from that. But it can be cruelty

21:03

if they are not intending anything to be cruel.

21:05

They are just simply attempting to survive.

21:10

I mean, most of the cruelty

21:12

is done for survival's sake

21:15

because that is their prey

21:17

or that is how they stay alive. They have got

21:19

to feed their own offspring. That

21:22

is where they are going to be. So, it is not cruel.

21:24

Well, when I am saying

21:26

cruelty in

21:29

regard to the interactions

21:31

between animals, I am just saying that one is

21:33

causing suffering to the other.

21:36

But what I am saying as

21:38

an advocate for animals is that

21:41

what is happening between animals should

21:45

not dictate how we interact

21:49

with animals. They are two separate

21:51

things because it does not matter aren't

21:55

we animals? Yes, but we

21:58

as human beings in the year 20.

21:59

in 2023, we can make

22:02

choices that reduce

22:04

the suffering of animals.

22:07

And

22:07

regardless of not regardless or not of

22:10

whether or not a line is going to chase down

22:13

a zebra and cause that zebra so

22:15

much suffering like that does make

22:18

me sad. And I wish that that suffering

22:20

didn't exist, but that

22:23

is out of my control. What is within

22:25

my control is the choices

22:27

I make on a day to day basis.

22:29

And when I go to the grocery store, I

22:32

am choosing one thing off of a shelf instead

22:34

of another. And this one thing I'm choosing doesn't

22:37

cause suffering

22:37

versus another thing I could be choosing that

22:40

does cause suffering. When I go to a restaurant,

22:42

I am choosing something off of a menu that

22:45

I can be confident an animal

22:47

did not suffer for.

22:49

Whereas the vast majority of people, we

22:51

love animals, but are making

22:53

choices on a regular basis that are

22:56

causing suffering, whether or not we want

22:58

to or not.

22:59

Right. If you could

23:01

kill an animal without this party,

23:03

the argument, right, if you can kill an animal instantly

23:07

or without suffering,

23:09

that would change the moral

23:11

equation. There would be a lot

23:13

of changes to the moral equation of things were

23:15

different. But the thing is, it is

23:18

impossible. It's not even

23:20

worth entertaining the idea because

23:23

it is an impossibility to

23:25

raise farm animals

23:27

in a way that is going to fit

23:30

this narrative. And it's the easy way

23:32

out that many meat eaters take

23:34

when they try and consider that

23:37

option. When the significantly

23:39

easier, healthier, cheaper option

23:42

is to choose more plant based

23:44

foods and

23:46

we can each make choices that really

23:48

do make a really big

23:51

difference for animals, because like

23:53

I said, we all recognize

23:56

that

23:56

suffering is bad and we don't

23:59

want to cause

23:59

unnecessary suffering and our

24:02

choices really dictate whether

24:04

or not we are going to You

24:07

know

24:07

have animals suffer or not Why

24:12

do humans eat

24:14

animals in the first place It's

24:17

a good question, you know, I'm not a Anthropologist

24:21

so I

24:22

can't well we kind of know don't we

24:24

I mean we kind of know that it was really good protein

24:27

It was it was it made

24:29

them stronger. It was incredibly good

24:31

nutrition they got all sorts of

24:33

nutrients and and and

24:35

that was sort of our price along with

24:38

berries and other Should we picked up?

24:40

Yeah, you know what? Nature

24:43

this is nature. This is this is who we are

24:46

as as as animals now if one could

24:49

what I'm curious about is I We

24:51

can talk later about

24:52

Animal factory farming

24:54

and all the rest of it all of which I think you have some extremely

24:57

strong points But I'm kind of interested in the sort

25:00

of philosophical idea of the

25:02

fact that it would be was wrong for humans To

25:05

kill animals we would no longer

25:07

exist if we haven't killed animals We

25:10

wouldn't so at some point you're you're

25:13

asking for us to adopt a standard

25:16

that humans

25:17

Never adopted you're asking us to evolve

25:20

in a really quite dramatic way

25:23

out of being the animals that we

25:26

That we began as There

25:28

are lots of things that we do today

25:30

that we didn't do then and there are lots of

25:32

things that we did then that We don't do today

25:35

humans evolve humans change and

25:37

in 2023 We no longer have to

25:39

live as cave people we can

25:41

live as

25:42

people living in the modern era Where

25:45

we have access to grocery stores we

25:47

have access to restaurants. We have access to

25:49

our own food growing our own food We have access

25:52

to lots of options that we didn't

25:54

have in the past and therefore we

25:57

should live as

25:58

modern humans rather than trying

26:00

to live to some standard from

26:03

thousands or tens of thousands of years ago?

26:06

Well, I'm just saying that most of us

26:08

understand that the human body, for example,

26:11

and its health, much of what we discover

26:13

today is that, in fact,

26:15

to be more in touch with the way humans

26:18

lived and ate and conducted

26:21

themselves for 195,000 years as hunter-gatherers is actually an

26:26

important corrective to

26:28

the period in which humans settled down and

26:31

grew plants and agriculture

26:34

and actually suffered a decline in

26:36

their lifespans marginally

26:38

in that period before recovering back

26:41

their lifespans. So the question really

26:43

is that you... It's interesting

26:45

that, in fact, you're

26:48

very forward-looking

26:48

in the sense that we're

26:51

leaving behind our nature. In

26:54

fact, we can overcome

26:56

our nature or substitute it somehow.

26:59

So for example, instead of running around all day long hunting,

27:01

antelope, or whatever, and occasionally killing them

27:03

or eating them, we sit around all day and

27:05

eat processed foods which

27:08

are benignly created. I'm just saying that you

27:11

can see there's a slight tension here. In

27:15

fact, you really want us to go beyond,

27:17

in a way, anything that humans

27:18

have done before. That

27:21

seems to me to be an interesting

27:24

point that isn't often made. You're

27:26

asking for a revolution

27:28

in human understanding of who we are

27:30

as animals.

27:32

Yeah, I think that we

27:34

no longer need to eat animals

27:37

to survive. We no longer need to

27:39

run around chasing antelope, as you say. We

27:42

don't need to do that. It was good for us, however.

27:45

It kept us very healthy. It

27:47

kept our body weight. We can still

27:49

do that today without having to chase antelope.

27:52

There's lots

27:55

of different exercises that you can do that don't require

27:57

running through prairies chasing animals.

27:59

Why am I attached? So

28:03

attached to the idea of a steak

28:05

or a rasha of bacon?

28:08

Because you

28:09

likely because you grew up eating that

28:12

and I grew up eating that as well and I love

28:14

that. I used to eat so

28:16

many animals. I used to as

28:18

a 19 year old I once

28:21

ate 39 chicken wings in a single

28:23

sitting. 39

28:24

chicken wings. And counted them afterwards.

28:26

Yeah I did. Well my friends were egging

28:29

me on and I was going for as much as I possibly

28:31

could. I used to eat two slabs

28:33

of ribs in one sitting as

28:35

a teenager

28:36

and I loved animals. And so

28:38

I never even thought about how my choices

28:41

were really making an impact on

28:44

animals. And I certainly

28:46

loved meat. I loved dairy.

28:50

I loved cheese. I loved eggs. And then

28:52

I realized you know if I love

28:54

animals maybe I should try and make

28:57

the connection between the foods that I was

28:59

eating and the animals I was eating. Now

29:01

that

29:02

just raises another question

29:04

in my head. Let's say we

29:07

did get rid of eating animals.

29:10

There will be a lot fewer cows

29:13

on the planet right. Their population

29:15

would probably disappear. Go down

29:18

what 95. What you're talking about is the

29:21

is a future in which there are

29:22

vastly fewer animals

29:24

than we think currently exist.

29:27

Yeah I mean I think that it's absolutely

29:30

bizarre that we have

29:32

billions and tens of billions

29:35

of animals that we're raising behind the closed

29:37

doors of factory farms and slaughterhouses.

29:40

And these animals are living

29:43

in just absolutely miserable conditions which I'm sure we'll

29:45

talk about later. And

29:47

the. But when

29:50

you when you want to. One of the ironies is

29:52

that some people will say the cows

29:54

for example among the most successful species ever

29:57

existed on earth that they they

29:59

they.

29:59

The numbers that they have are a species

30:02

triumph, of course, because they latched onto

30:04

humans. Similarly with dogs, for that matter.

30:07

Many more than would have existed without humans.

30:10

There is a paradox here that if you get

30:13

rid of eating animals, you're also going

30:15

to get rid of a lot of animals. And I guess that's

30:17

part of the point, isn't it? Because fewer animals,

30:19

far less, they eat less.

30:23

You are contributing massively

30:25

to reducing carbon energy if

30:27

you reduce the number of actual

30:29

living, breathing animals on the planet

30:32

and increase the number of plants sucking in

30:34

the carbon dioxide, right? Conversely,

30:37

I mean, there's no

30:38

benefit to just raising, bringing

30:41

these animals into existence for no

30:43

reason. And this would take,

30:45

these changes happen slowly over time.

30:48

I don't expect a vegan world overnight. I do

30:50

not expect that next week or next

30:52

year or even next decade, we're going to have

30:55

a vegan world. And so

30:57

we aren't going to suddenly have some situation where

31:00

we have 10 billion farm animals on our hands and we don't

31:02

know what to do with them. That's not going to happen.

31:04

Just like every other chain. I know, I know. But

31:07

I just find these are

31:08

kind of weird paradoxes

31:11

here that animal rights will require

31:13

actually the disappearance of

31:16

billions of animals that we have created

31:18

for our own use in

31:20

a way, literally for our own use.

31:23

If

31:25

humans were capable

31:27

of living

31:29

as we used to, let's say, take us back a couple of

31:31

centuries

31:33

in which animals were not created en

31:35

masse. They were not, they were

31:37

generated on, they were mainly part

31:40

of an agricultural society

31:43

which fed its, they weren't treated

31:45

as

31:47

objects in a factory as it

31:49

were. They were treated and human beings had

31:52

quite complicated and long relationships

31:54

with the animals that they lived with

31:57

and eventually often killed.

31:59

My brother has

32:02

his little cottages around in

32:06

the landscape of Sussex and Surrey

32:08

where I grew up. And

32:10

you find houses which were just for animal

32:13

husbanders.

32:14

These are people who just dealt with animals,

32:16

dealt with hoofing them and helping

32:19

them and then also

32:21

killing them. Is that kind of world

32:24

in which, yes, animals

32:26

were a part of the human life and

32:28

were not treated with abject

32:30

cruelty? They weren't treated

32:32

as gods, but they weren't treated in the way that we

32:35

treat animals today.

32:37

Is that a world that you could find morally acceptable?

32:40

At least more morally acceptable than ours?

32:42

I would say that a world in which

32:45

animals suffered significantly less

32:47

is something that is better, but

32:49

it isn't ideal because there is still a certain

32:52

level of animal suffering going on.

32:55

If we are going to compare today's world to

32:57

the world in 1723 or 1823, yes, there is less

33:03

suffering then. So in that way, it

33:05

would be much better. But

33:09

in 2023, in today's world, we

33:11

can, instead of trying to strive for

33:14

some

33:15

ideal from the past that

33:17

is better, we can choose something

33:19

that is more realistic and

33:22

you

33:22

can be 100%

33:24

sure that there is

33:26

no suffering. So by moving

33:28

in a direction of vegan eating,

33:30

by consuming fewer animals, or by consuming

33:33

no animals and no animal products,

33:35

you can be sure that there

33:37

is no suffering that went into that

33:40

meal. And on top of this, this is going

33:42

to be cheaper. This is going to be healthier.

33:44

This is going to be easier to obtain.

33:47

So you don't necessarily, you don't need

33:50

to try and reach for some

33:52

ideal. On top of it, just from an

33:54

advocacy standpoint, it becomes really

33:56

problematic when you start saying, oh,

33:59

well, let's just try and find out.

33:59

I put in quotations, humane

34:02

meat, because that is the

34:04

easy way out.

34:06

I

34:08

can't tell you how many conversations

34:10

I've had with meat eaters when they say, oh, I

34:12

only eat humane meat. Well, that is

34:15

a practical impossibility because

34:17

if you look at chickens, for example, 4,999 out

34:21

of every 5,000 chickens that are

34:23

raised in the United States are raised on

34:26

factory farms. That's 9.98%

34:29

of chickens and chickens are the vast majority of

34:31

the land animals who we are consuming. And

34:34

so I promise you, you are not eating

34:37

humane meat, but

34:39

in today's world, again, in 2023 and

34:42

beyond, we have access to so

34:44

many foods that don't

34:46

require any suffering at

34:49

all. And therefore we should really consider

34:51

eating more of that,

34:53

more food that doesn't cause suffering and less

34:56

food that does cause suffering. Would it

34:58

be in any way possible?

35:01

I'm just now gaming out loud. You're going to tell

35:03

me no, I suppose.

35:05

To feed as many people as we currently

35:08

feed

35:10

without some level of factory

35:13

farming, because it does seem to me we have a

35:16

huge number of ... Let's take

35:18

America, 330 million or so people.

35:22

That's a lot of eggs. That's a lot

35:26

of bacon. That's a lot of burgers.

35:28

How would it be conceivable

35:31

to do this without ... I mean, surely factory

35:33

farming isn't simply a function of evil,

35:35

although I think one could make

35:38

the argument that it is evil, but it was a

35:40

function of feeding people and a function of feeding

35:42

them as efficiently and as cheaply as

35:44

you possibly can. That's what capitalism does.

35:48

Is there any way in which it wouldn't have happened that

35:50

way? Was there any way in which you

35:52

could have taken agriculture,

35:54

humane agriculture, and multiplied

35:56

it at scale to feed this many

35:59

people?

36:00

It's a good question. And, you

36:02

know, without getting into the history

36:05

of factory farming and whether or not it would, what

36:08

would have been possible when factory

36:10

farming started becoming the norm, you know, 60, 70, 80 years

36:13

ago in the mid, in the mid 20th

36:15

century. I think that what we can say is

36:18

that moving forward,

36:20

we can choose something actually is less

36:22

resource intensive. And unfortunately,

36:26

factory farming is incredibly inefficient.

36:28

It's incredibly resource intensive

36:32

and we can feed more people

36:35

by

36:35

feeding them plant-based foods rather

36:38

than animal-based foods. We use

36:40

so much land, so much

36:42

water, so many natural resources

36:45

to feed farm animals.

36:47

And it is so incredibly inefficient to feed

36:50

a farm animal and then to eat that farm

36:52

animal rather than just feeding

36:54

people the plants directly.

36:57

I see your point. And

37:01

this is why I kind of come up empty sometimes

37:04

with this because it seems to me that

37:06

I don't know enough to know how much protein

37:09

we could really, really get

37:11

to most people without animals.

37:13

What is the answer to that? I mean, it seems to

37:16

me there are going to be, it's going

37:18

to be more difficult, presumably.

37:21

Isn't, doesn't

37:24

animal meat have far more

37:26

protein in it than most other substances? I

37:29

mean, you can definitely get a ton

37:31

of protein from meat, but

37:33

we, most people's problem is actually

37:35

eating way too much protein. And

37:39

if you ask any doctors out there, they will

37:41

say that

37:42

protein deficiency is almost impossible.

37:45

You know, every doctor I've ever asked has said

37:47

they've never met anybody who

37:49

is protein deficient. Any vegetarian, any

37:51

vegan, anybody at all. The protein myth is something

37:54

that's been pounded into our

37:56

heads by the meat industry

37:59

for decades.

37:59

because people obviously

38:02

love eating meat and we're

38:04

Americans we want to get big this

38:06

is true you want to be mighty

38:08

we want to be great and powerful and you can be mighty

38:11

by eating plant-based foods I

38:13

promise you how you you you look pretty

38:16

stacked you you're how you're like

38:18

five

38:19

seven five eight I'm like

38:21

five nine and a half okay

38:23

I'm sorry five

38:26

nine and a half these things about and how much you weigh

38:28

you gotta you gotta do a half in there I'm like 190

38:30

190 pounds and

38:33

I eat a lot

38:36

of food I eat a lot of food

38:38

I eat a lot of protein as well I to

38:40

food temp a satan by a lot of plant-based

38:43

meats you know vegetables have lots of

38:45

protein me about the plant-based

38:47

meats because this is where you

38:49

could get me because I really don't

38:51

want to live without the

38:53

taste of chicken without

38:56

the taste of a great chili

38:59

not a vegetarian chili without the

39:01

taste of

39:02

steak is it

39:04

we're not quite there yet are we

39:06

but are we I mean is it is it would

39:08

it be possible to do that at some point the

39:11

food innovations over the last couple

39:13

of decades alone have been just

39:15

absolutely monumental in terms

39:17

of providing options to people who want

39:20

to eat less meat and it is

39:22

really quite beautiful even last

39:25

seven to eight years have just been give

39:27

me give me some examples of

39:30

things that have happened that could really actually make a difference

39:32

sure so choosing an impossible

39:34

burger over a

39:36

beef burger right that is a

39:39

huge step that is something

39:41

that is going to give you basically the same

39:43

experience and it doesn't require

39:46

killing a cow it

39:47

requires why

39:49

haven't I ever eaten an impossible burger that's

39:51

a good question because they are all over the place

39:54

Andrew and no Burger King carries

39:56

an impossible Burger King does Burger King

39:58

does McDonald's doesn't yet have a no

39:59

No, they're in works, they're

40:02

working on creating a plant-based option. I

40:07

was assuming the mikrib was entirely plant-based.

40:11

It seemed it came from somewhere. It

40:13

didn't look like it came from an animal. So

40:18

I should try the impossible whopper? Yeah,

40:23

that's something that's great. What's

40:26

beautiful about living in 2023 versus even 2013 or 2003 is that there are so many

40:32

options out there. I know lots

40:34

of

40:35

vegans who went vegan in the 90s

40:37

and they had to literally make

40:39

their own soy milk. They had to go to

40:41

the store, buy soy milk powder and

40:44

mix it with water, which just sounds so disgusting.

40:47

Now you go to the grocery store. You won't even

40:49

let us have milk anymore. Now you go

40:51

to the grocery store, there's soy milk, almond

40:54

milk, hemp milk, oat milk. So

40:56

fucking irritating. These people

40:59

are... It's beautiful, Andrew. I

41:03

have to sit behind another

41:05

Gen Zer ordering an almond, half

41:07

almond, half oat, half whatever. But

41:09

it's not Gen Z, it's everybody.

41:12

People

41:14

across the board are choosing more and more plant-based

41:17

options, which is why these companies

41:19

who pretty much only care about their bottom line,

41:22

they are introducing this all

41:24

the time. Even Starbucks, a

41:26

few years ago, they only had

41:28

soy milk, then they introduced almond milk, then

41:30

coconut milk, and now oat milk. So

41:33

you see across the board, even

41:35

corporations who pretty

41:37

much just care about making money are

41:41

adding more vegan options, more plant-based

41:42

options, because that is the future.

41:45

Corporations are good.

41:47

The desire to make money can

41:49

be an extraordinarily positive thing. It

41:52

just depends what you attach it to. If you attach

41:54

it to the ability to reduce

41:56

suffering, then the profit motive is your friend.

41:59

Don't, do not, do

42:02

not criticize the capitalists if they are actually

42:05

bringing about the revolution that you

42:07

want. I'm not criticizing anybody. I'm

42:09

just saying that if your main

42:11

motivation is to make money

42:14

for your investors and your stockholders-

42:17

But you see how that's a more effective argument for this to say,

42:19

look, we're going to give you more choices,

42:21

not fewer. We're not going to sit

42:23

here lecturing you about not eating

42:25

meat, but we're going to offer you these new, interesting,

42:28

new, yummy things

42:31

to eat that

42:33

come with a clear conscience. And

42:36

to sell that with all the power

42:38

of multi-millionaire capitalism.

42:41

Yeah. And what's beautiful is that

42:44

more and more people are making those kinder,

42:46

compassionate choices. Whether or not they're

42:48

doing it for ethical purposes

42:51

or they're doing it because they just like a

42:53

taste of oat milk more than the taste of cow's

42:55

milk. Whatever the reason is, there

42:57

are lots and lots of people making

43:00

those decisions on a regular

43:02

basis. And that is pretty

43:04

beautiful to me. And that is something that just

43:06

shows that we are moving

43:08

towards a more compassionate

43:11

world where there are more options

43:13

for people who want to make kinder choices. What about

43:15

buying like fake meat in a supermarket?

43:18

Can people do that yet? Hi there. This

43:21

is not the end of

43:23

this podcast. In fact, we're only just

43:25

getting going. If you're

43:28

a paid subscriber and hearing this, it

43:30

means you haven't yet signed up for the full

43:33

new package to get our podcast in full. No

43:35

extra charge. Just go to andrewsullivan.substack.com

43:40

forward slash listen, L-I-S-T-E-N,

43:43

and make sure your podcast is up to date with

43:46

the DishCast. You'll be able to add it

43:48

to your DishCast feed and never have to hear this

43:50

message again and go back to exactly

43:52

what you've been doing for the last two years. And

43:55

I'd like to thank you two

43:56

for contributing for so long. hearing

44:00

this message and you haven't yet subscribed

44:03

and want to listen to the rest of the podcast, then

44:06

just subscribe. It's very easy. andrewsullivan.sobstack.com

44:10

is 50 bucks a year. Great

44:12

value for money. You also get with

44:14

that the entire weekly dish every

44:16

Friday. Not just my weekly column

44:18

but also all the comments and dissents

44:21

on that column. You also have a full

44:23

discussion of the previous week's

44:25

dish cast. So all those questions you had in your mind

44:28

can be answered or you can hear and read readers

44:30

debating what we talked about, sometimes

44:33

calling me to account.

44:36

andrewsullivan.sobstack.com.

44:39

Subscribe and get the whole thing.

44:41

Join the debate. Join

44:44

the fun. Subscribe.