0:00

Hey, everybody.

0:09

Welcome to our podcast. We appreciate

0:11

you being here and support people support us. And

0:13

don't forget to check out after dark and man,

0:16

the streaming shows, you might want to check out

0:18

the old one with Joseph Fryman to some really

0:21

interesting science presented there. That's

0:23

science. Just our present moment

0:26

is a very odd thing. And some of the things

0:28

you think you're sure of, turns

0:30

out that things are not what they appear

0:32

to be. Do check that out. Today,

0:34

my guest is Viorica

0:37

Marion. She's a psycholinguist,

0:39

cognitive scientist, psychologist,

0:41

known for research in bilingualism or

0:43

multilingualism. The book is the power of

0:46

language. Her website is her name,

0:48

Viorica Marion, M-A-R-I-A-N.com

0:51

or the power of language.com. And

0:53

you can follow her on Twitter again at Viorica

0:56

Marion one. Viorica,

0:58

welcome to the program.

1:00

I'm delighted to be here. Thank you for having me. So

1:03

let me frame this conversation

1:05

by first of all, I've been I've been reaching

1:08

out to cognitive science of scientists of

1:10

all types a lot these days, because

1:12

I'm trying to understand, you

1:14

know, you just heard me talk about some distorted

1:17

science about how everyone's thinking

1:19

has gone berserko. It's

1:22

almost like I think Donald Trump

1:24

broke a bunch of brains and then COVID broke the rest

1:26

of them. And it was

1:28

in the cognitive distortions and distortions

1:31

of thinking. And oh, my God, I've never seen anything

1:33

like this. So I've had

1:35

this sort of trend lately where I've been reaching

1:37

out to cognitive psychologists. That's one part of

1:39

my story. The other part of my story

1:42

is I got long COVID and

1:46

after a bad alpha delta strain variant

1:49

back in early 21. And

1:52

I it felt like I'd been hit in the head.

1:54

It felt like a like a global kind

1:56

of brain injury. But I had this strange feeling

1:59

as I was sitting there.

1:59

and miserable week was

2:03

that if I, that music or

2:05

language could help pull me out

2:07

of it. It was just a feeling like

2:10

I should be working on, go back to piano

2:13

or I should work on a language. And

2:15

we were going to go to Greece that summer, like

2:17

about three months later, I thought, well,

2:20

I need, maybe I'll just learn the language. And I went

2:22

into it a whole hog. I

2:24

didn't, you know, I should have recognized

2:27

we live in a time when you can do just about everything

2:29

on YouTube and online. You can get, you can get lessons

2:32

on everything. And I went in full

2:34

both feet and spent a lot of time

2:36

and in two weeks

2:39

my fogginess had cleared. And

2:43

so that's my story. And does that

2:45

surprise you or is that consistent with

2:47

your theoretical frame on the power

2:49

of language? That's a really

2:51

interesting story. And first

2:54

of all, I'm sorry you have won't call good. I don't have any

2:56

more. It was, it was lifted with the,

2:58

the weakness went another couple of weeks, but the fog, which

3:01

was the most disturbing part, went away

3:03

with studying Greek.

3:05

Well, it sounds like you have one

3:07

good thing that came out of it. Now you can speak some

3:09

Greek. Yes. Yes.

3:12

Although there's another, that would be my third language.

3:14

And the thing about third language is you've got to keep it

3:16

up. You go, it goes away really quickly.

3:20

Wow. What, what are you other two languages? French

3:22

and English.

3:23

Yeah. Yeah. I

3:25

think your experience is right on because

3:28

you use another language and,

3:30

and, or music maybe to sort of gently

3:33

give your brain a workout

3:35

in a way that's enjoyable. Yeah. And

3:38

it didn't feel taxing and, and it

3:41

helped you work, give

3:45

you a little bit of a workout, mental workout.

3:47

It was taxing. I kind of

3:49

do that to myself naturally because I'm sort

3:51

of trained that way to

3:54

take on any kind

3:56

of cognitive discipline with both hands.

4:00

was taxing, it wasn't tiring

4:02

I would say, you know, it wasn't taxing

4:04

in the way that certain kinds of cognitive

4:06

processes can tire.

4:08

Yeah, but isn't it amazing how you

4:11

get benefits from learning

4:13

another language? Well, that's what I wanted to get into. That's

4:15

what I was hoping you go. So, I'm

4:18

guessing there's a neurobiology attached to all

4:20

that. Tell me more about

4:21

it. Yeah, so both of these

4:23

forms of enrichment, so you

4:26

get enriched auditory input,

4:28

enriched auditory experience, but it's

4:31

not just that with learning a new

4:33

language. You

4:36

form connections between words, between

4:39

representations of meaning, you

4:41

have to control your languages.

4:44

So, as I was speaking now in English, we

4:46

have to make sure we don't suddenly you don't switch

4:48

into Greek or French, and

4:51

I don't

4:51

know Romanian. Yeah,

4:53

so we have to facilitate the languages

4:55

we speak and inhibit the other languages,

4:57

which gives us this constant executive

5:00

function workout, then no other real

5:04

experience gives you on

5:06

the fly all the time. So, you know what, it felt

5:08

a little bit like what problem

5:10

solving does. Problem solving does require

5:13

more focus and more taxing, but

5:15

it felt like it had that kind of quality

5:18

to it. I gotta say, I wouldn't have said it at the time, but now looking

5:20

back, I think it does. Yeah,

5:23

and it's true, and there is actually quite a bit of research

5:25

now that suggests that people who speak

5:27

two or more languages have some

5:30

see some benefits against cognitive decline,

5:32

some protective benefits against cognitive

5:35

decline that you see with aging, and also delaying

5:38

onset of dementia, Alzheimer's and other

5:41

kinds of dementia.

5:42

Since

5:44

this thing to COVID affected me so much like a head

5:47

injury, are they using it for head injury patients?

5:50

I think we're just now starting to

5:52

do research on that.

5:55

It's a relatively new field. So, most of the time,

5:58

most of the research in cognitive development is science

6:00

focused on monolingual people who just spoke

6:02

one language and people who spoke two or more languages

6:05

were seen as an aberration and as a noise.

6:07

So we're just now realizing,

6:10

hey, way the majority of the world population speaks

6:12

two or more languages. So, you

6:15

know, really studying the mind

6:17

in speakers of only one language gives

6:19

us not only an incomplete, but also

6:21

an inaccurate understanding of the human mind

6:24

and human potential and what the brain can do and mind

6:26

can do. And,

6:29

you know, one thing, one of the things about speaking

6:32

another language is that unlike any

6:34

kind of other cognitive exercise, you don't

6:36

need to take time out of your day to

6:38

benefit from it once you've learned the other

6:40

language. Also, also, I still

6:43

to this day when I work on language, because I've made

6:45

a habit of it ever since that experience, running

6:49

or working out, I always work on some language. And

6:52

you can see you can do other things and language.

6:55

I can't, really solve

6:57

math equations and work out. I can't really do

6:59

that. Well, but, you know, just by virtue

7:01

of using language, you speak a language,

7:03

you listen, you listen to music, whatever you do, you

7:05

have to focus on the language you're using

7:08

and inhibit the other language. So you're constantly

7:10

working out your brain where any kind

7:13

of other

7:13

workout that you do, you know, Wordle or

7:16

crossword puzzles or, you

7:18

know, anything else, you have to actually take time

7:20

out of your life to do that. Whereas here,

7:22

you just leave your life and by virtue of knowing

7:24

two or more languages, your brain is

7:27

constantly getting a workout.

7:29

What led you wanted to write the

7:31

book?

7:33

I've been studying language

7:35

and the psychology of language for almost 30

7:38

years now. So it was never a

7:40

question of writing the book. It was a

7:42

question of when really

7:45

wanting to bring this data and this information

7:47

to a wider audience as opposed to just my classroom

7:50

or just the lab or scientific papers. But

7:53

I had to wait until my kids were grown and out

7:55

of the house and until I felt

7:58

like,

7:59

now is the time and

8:02

the right to speak to the world about the benefits

8:05

of

8:05

language learning.

8:07

And how is the receptivity? How

8:09

is it being received? Mixed, I think,

8:13

mostly very positively, but there is

8:15

still some resistance. Sometimes

8:20

people think that by talking about bilingual

8:23

and multilingual, we are talking about another

8:25

language as opposed to English and not about

8:28

multiple languages, including English.

8:33

Sometimes those things can trigger this

8:36

reaction. Well, of course, everyone should speak English

8:38

in this country, but the argument

8:41

is not against replacing

8:43

English, but for people to actually learn

8:46

multiple languages as a form of enrichment

8:48

and cognitive enrichment. Yeah, we don't

8:50

think of it as such per se,

8:53

I think. It's not explicitly thought of that way. My

8:56

experience was so vivid with it. That's why

8:58

I stayed with it. I

9:01

certainly didn't think of it that way in high school. A lot of the

9:03

language, do

9:06

you have any thoughts about that, like how languages

9:08

are taught? Especially in this country, we are so

9:10

provincial when it comes to language. I mean, English is

9:13

it. Either

9:16

you grew up in a bilingual, bicultural

9:18

family or if you're

9:22

lucky, you maybe got it in high school or college

9:24

or something, but even then, the way it's taught is

9:26

so, I don't know. It seems

9:28

like we can do better. Yeah,

9:32

well, English is one of the major

9:34

languages in the world. Sometimes people think,

9:36

well, I don't need another language because so

9:38

many people in the world speak English. That's true. A lot

9:40

of people speak English, but the reason

9:43

for learning another language is really for your

9:45

own cognitive benefit, for your own enrichment.

9:48

Think about it as you think of learning math

9:51

or learning music. You're

9:53

right, but socially, it's not really

9:55

as well supported as it could be. For

9:57

example, if it is in Europe or in Europe.

9:59

Yeah.

9:59

other parts of the world where it's the

10:02

norm for people

10:02

to grow up with school. It starts when they're seven years,

10:05

they start right away. It starts with the three languages

10:07

right away, which we only wish

10:09

we could do that. We had done that. And

10:11

I just naturally, we'd naturally pick it

10:13

up. So my parents,

10:16

my grandparents, myself, everyone in my family

10:19

speaks multiple languages, but now my kids are

10:22

educated in an American system. So they're pretty

10:24

much monolingual. They speak a little bit of other

10:26

languages, but with a foreign accent. So

10:29

I definitely get how challenging it is to support

10:32

bilingualism when it's not supported

10:34

more widely. Yeah, I just think we are

10:37

so insulated from

10:39

that. Now, there's another part

10:41

of my experience I wanted to share or

10:43

bring to you, which is, as

10:46

I've, so after I went

10:49

to Greece and it was you, first thing I

10:51

learned was that if you really apply yourself,

10:53

the early part of language

10:55

learning is a very steep slope. You can

10:57

learn a lot very quickly, right?

11:00

I started reading about that a little bit. And

11:02

then that sort of intermediate zone

11:04

is a plateau of bit. The slope

11:07

goes way down, right? It

11:09

might. Well, growth is not linear.

11:12

You think that you're not learning, but

11:14

you are learning. You're just learning different things.

11:16

You're forming different connections. Early on,

11:18

you're learning these words and you

11:21

see, you know, quick growth in the number of words

11:23

you've learned. And then the learning

11:25

is a little bit more hidden. It's sort of a hidden

11:28

network.

11:28

But

11:29

after you sort of go through that plateau, you

11:31

can really see things come together

11:34

in grammar and use language.

11:37

You know, earlier, one thing I, when

11:39

you were talking about differences between the United

11:41

States and other countries,

11:43

there is actually data that shows that

11:45

there is a direct relationship between the number

11:47

of languages spoken in the country and the incidence

11:50

of Alzheimer's.

11:51

Isn't it interesting?

11:54

With each additional language in a country,

11:57

the incidence of Alzheimer's goes

11:59

down.

11:59

Interesting. At the population level.

12:03

You know, the group that, as

12:05

my travels, I always run across

12:08

that seem to always speak three to five languages

12:10

is the Dutch. And so

12:13

I'm wondering, is that A, is that

12:15

an unusual outlier? And B, do they have

12:17

less Alzheimer's there?

12:19

It is not an unusual outlier.

12:21

And my husband happens to be Dutch.

12:24

So his mother, you know,

12:26

she's in her mid 80s, and she speaks five

12:28

languages fluently. It's very, you know, everyone

12:31

from a language school just kind of grows up

12:33

with three languages. It's the norm

12:35

in most European countries. In some countries,

12:37

it's like 99% of people

12:39

are bilingual or trilingual. And

12:42

if you make it part of your culture,

12:44

it just, you pick it up like you pick up literacy,

12:47

you know, in other countries. So then just

12:49

kind of automatically learn it, and then you reap

12:51

the benefits, lifelong benefits

12:54

from it.

12:55

So the next layer for me

12:57

was so when I finished with Greece, I

13:00

went, you know what, I've always been

13:02

I've been frustrated with the fact that I could

13:04

never really converse in French, I just couldn't

13:06

understand why I couldn't because I know the language.

13:09

I know how to read and write it very well.

13:12

Never was taught really how to speak

13:14

it properly, or how to

13:17

comfortably, I guess be a better word. I could

13:20

always do it properly. But of course, the problem

13:22

in France is very people, few people

13:24

speak proper French, they

13:27

speak familiar French and and slang

13:29

French and all this other stuff. And,

13:32

and so when I dug into it, it

13:34

got it got chat,

13:36

I thought, Oh, I understand why I didn't understand. There's

13:38

no one, no one ever taught me this stuff. And

13:41

I didn't really get it in my ear. And I certainly

13:43

wasn't producing it as a verbal

13:47

experience. My

13:49

questions are two, two things.

13:52

A, is that a whole other kind of wiring?

13:54

Is that another mechanism in the brain? Or is it all

13:56

kind of a continuous sort of similar

14:00

kind of neurobiological network,

14:03

number one. And number two, and this

14:05

is a bigger topic,

14:09

I've been forced, because

14:12

I've really been forcing myself to get the

14:14

French right, to learn

14:16

to think the way they think.

14:19

And that is different. It is not franclé.

14:22

It is not a direct translation at

14:24

all. It's a literally a different

14:27

way of thinking. And that has

14:29

been an interesting and challenging part

14:31

of this. So give me both a little bit on both those.

14:33

These are both really great topics to talk about. And

14:36

the answer to your first question is it's both.

14:39

It is a continuum, but also

14:41

each of these languages is a little bit distinct.

14:44

And your experience is a distinct if you speak

14:46

it versus if you just read it and write it. But

14:49

both of them shape

14:52

your brain. Both of them change the way your

14:54

neural networks work. The second one

14:56

is really quite interesting. The fact

14:59

that with each additional language, we

15:02

sort of

15:02

partition the world a little bit differently

15:04

and see the world and think a little

15:07

bit differently. So you mentioned that you

15:09

were learning Greek. And a famous example

15:11

for Greek learners is that in

15:14

Greek, there are two words for blue. There

15:16

is light blue and dark blue. And

15:18

if you have English speakers remember,

15:21

or even sort colors or remember

15:24

things of different colors, English

15:27

speakers versus Greek speakers, you

15:29

see differences in performance on this color spectrum on

15:31

a computer

15:32

depending on whether

15:34

it's light blue or dark

15:36

blue. So it sort of changes how you see

15:40

the world a little bit. And you

15:44

yourself often use this hammer example, right?

15:46

That it's not a collection of atoms. You have the steel

15:48

and the wood. You know what I'm talking about?

15:51

I've written in your shows

15:53

before. The hammer,

15:55

you always talk about how a hammer is not...

15:59

how I talk about people that become

16:02

expert become hammers and the whole

16:04

world becomes the nail they're looking for there's

16:06

hammering on a nail all the time

16:08

I use that for my language analogy but

16:10

no you've used in some of your philosophical podcasts

16:13

talking about how when you we refer

16:15

when we talk about maybe

16:17

it was an axe I think it was a hammer you don't talk about

16:19

this oh yeah no this

16:21

was yes I don't know where you heard me talk about that that's

16:23

fantastic no that's that's Heidegger

16:27

Heidegger has a a

16:31

extraordinary and impenetrable

16:33

speaking of difficult language way of

16:35

thinking about

16:37

experience so phenomenology

16:39

is about experience and he was saying

16:42

you know the hammer or those like the axe

16:44

it's it could be

16:46

some wood with this weird metal

16:48

attached to it that's hanging on the wall

16:51

or it can be a tool ready to hand

16:54

that you can pull off and it turns it literally

16:56

becomes something different experientially at

16:59

that moment he goes from

17:01

those simple he starts talking

17:03

about what is near and far are my

17:05

glasses which I don't notice all the time

17:07

are they near are they far from experience

17:10

right they're sort of far because I never

17:12

come to conscious and I've kind of zero it and

17:15

so he goes if you

17:17

ever tried to read being in time by Heidegger

17:20

have you ever tried I don't recommend this

17:23

impenetrable but he goes all the way

17:25

into concepts of time and everything

17:28

everything so and how things appear to us and

17:30

oh my god he ends up sort

17:33

of in a almost a Eastern

17:36

philosophical sort of it sort of starts

17:38

to sound like that to me where he goes which

17:40

is kind of interesting because things get more interesting

17:42

and there's a famous famous

17:45

Heideggerian philosopher that was at Berkeley from

17:47

in here's name I'm blanking

17:50

on right now but he used to have these great lectures

17:52

out back when we had you iTunes

17:54

you you iTunes you and he

17:57

won't let him talking about this

18:00

time and horizon and x disease and then

18:02

he goes it's something that's something

18:04

that means something and it's explaining about

18:06

a something that's perfect

18:08

tinnigar it's something and it's something and it's

18:10

just something it defies

18:13

deep definition. I

18:16

love this so much for so many reasons because

18:18

reasons because you're talking about you know a

18:20

hammer and and so why

18:23

do we not refer to it as a collection of atoms

18:25

and different we use language to give

18:27

it a label and the second we say hammer

18:30

we immediately know what we're talking about and we

18:32

represent in our mind a certain way.

18:34

And the hammer itself it could

18:36

be you know we're talking about the claw and it could be a weapon

18:39

or it could be old it could

18:41

be it could be in my hand it could be in somebody else's

18:43

hand each of those is a different experience of

18:45

hammer.

18:46

Well but with language also the the

18:49

label we use to like

18:51

you just said a weapon or tool it immediately

18:54

sort of shapes and anchors that and how we

18:56

think about the hammer it's not just the hammer it's

18:59

everything else in the universe and the reality

19:01

around that.

19:02

Say that again say that give me that one

19:04

again because because I was just as you were saying

19:06

and I was thinking maybe Heidegger was only really

19:08

talking about language and he can write down to it but

19:11

go ahead because

19:11

I you know because I study language

19:14

to me yeah like you said once

19:16

you you know

19:17

if you have a hammer everything else looks like a nail.

19:19

Yes that's another another version.

19:21

Everything looks like language because when

19:23

I think about the universe and reality

19:26

what is reality

19:28

the perception that you have oh I have what

19:30

everyone anyone else has is different

19:33

and we could think about this

19:35

kaleidoscopic flux of impressions but

19:37

we don't we use labels to label

19:40

okay here's our microphone uh

19:42

here's the computer there's the sky

19:44

there's the tree there's the rainbow so

19:46

we use language and we use labels

19:49

to help us partition reality

19:51

and and language

19:53

sort of functions as those glasses

19:55

that you just mentioned and so through

19:58

which we see the world and with each each

20:00

new language, you partition

20:02

the world a little bit differently. Just

20:04

like with Greek, you had different words for

20:07

light and dark blue. And it's

20:09

not just that. So think about since

20:11

we are on the color topic, think about

20:13

the rainbow.

20:14

Yeah. In the United States, you usually

20:16

think that the rainbow has this set number of colors

20:19

and you learn them in childhood and you learn the

20:21

colors and that's what the rainbow is. But

20:23

in reality, the rainbow is an

20:26

infinite number of colors. Each color

20:28

seamlessly transitioning

20:30

into the other just with one change of a pixel.

20:33

So you could have so many more colors.

20:36

It's the label that we put on

20:38

color that then shape

20:41

how we see the rainbow, where if you

20:43

now next time you see the rainbow, you look at it, you

20:45

realize, oh, it's not a discrete color

20:47

representation. So other languages that have other

20:50

words for color represent

20:52

the rainbow differently and it's not just rainbow. It's

20:55

time. It's

20:57

just about every concept in the world. The

21:00

labels we use and

21:02

for how we think about those terms. Anchor

21:06

it or this is going to be a really tough question.

21:08

Anchor it or create

21:10

it

21:11

in the same

21:12

philosophical question. Yeah,

21:14

because let me frame that a little bit,

21:16

which is, you know, we have the

21:19

world as we experience it back to phenomenology,

21:22

which is not the world in itself. The

21:24

world in itself is energy and atoms

21:27

and time doesn't even exist. But

21:29

we have an hour of time in our brain and

21:32

we and we're talking about these things.

21:34

I'm using words to send

21:37

that information across to you. But

21:39

does it?

21:41

I could see where it would bias

21:43

my concept of reality, but I feel like

21:45

brains already do that because

21:48

it must have evolved to do that. But

21:50

language makes it more maybe

21:53

something like that. So, yeah, it's

21:55

a huge philosophical question. What comes first,

21:57

thought or language? And our.

22:00

you know,

22:01

we sort of want to say thought.

22:03

Of course, thought comes first. But

22:05

how do we know that? Because most of the time,

22:08

we use language to measure thought. And

22:14

even if we go to sort of

22:16

babies, they already have some experience

22:18

with language. Or if we go to

22:22

really language and thought are

22:24

so tightly connected, it's very hard

22:26

to separate the two. Well, let's dig

22:29

into the other layer, which is sort of... All

22:31

right, I'm going to use a word, which is feeling. Feelings,

22:35

I mean, children definitely have feelings,

22:37

right? And they are sort of

22:40

identified, and in

22:42

fact, there's a good whole bunch

22:44

of data that shows that before

22:46

kids acquire language, the way they appreciate

22:49

feeling is seeing it on mom's face. Mom

22:52

automatically, the small muscles in her

22:54

eye, around her mouth,

22:56

give a signal of an appreciation

22:58

of the child's feeling state, not saying, I'm

23:00

catching your feeling, but I know your feeling. And

23:04

that's a language, right? I mean, go

23:06

ahead, keep going. Yes,

23:09

yes, it is. And also, labeling emotions

23:12

has a very powerful effect. This is what people

23:14

do in therapy. This is what children do. Oh,

23:17

absolutely. You want to use labels

23:19

to help you process emotions. And

23:23

that has implications for lots of things

23:25

in psychological health, in psychotherapy, in

23:27

relationships. So I go into my book,

23:32

having relationships with people who speak multiple

23:34

languages, personal relationships, if you ever

23:37

dated or worked

23:39

with someone in the family, speak

23:41

more than one language.

23:42

You change how you

23:44

interact with people, often depending

23:46

on the languages you speak. There's an entire

23:50

Dr. Drew off the Dark episode there. Ah, you're

23:52

saying. We're going to talk about love

23:54

across languages. Yes, yes. Oh

23:57

my God. That's so interesting. I'm

24:00

just flashing on how children tend to

24:02

use, you know, baby

24:04

fake languages or stuff as a way of creating

24:07

a little intimacy with another person that, you

24:09

know, that's a way to

24:11

do that.

24:13

Yeah. And there is for people who speak multiple

24:15

languages, there is a lot

24:17

of evidence suggesting that they feel

24:19

differently in the native language versus the second

24:21

language. The native language is often

24:24

more emotional. The second

24:26

language is often more, more

24:30

rational and you see this

24:32

impact thing. So when someone says, I love

24:34

you, it lands differently depending

24:36

on whether

24:37

it's a native language or a native language.

24:39

I was just watching

24:41

an interview. I can't remember the French actress's

24:44

name, but she has a pretty heavy French

24:47

action when she speaks English, but she speaks perfect

24:50

English and she's an actress. But when I saw

24:52

her speaking French, I'm like, oh, there's much, much

24:55

broader range of expression here than

24:57

when she's speaking English. And yet,

25:00

coquiard, is that her name? Coquiard or something. Anyway,

25:04

but that is an interesting thing and I

25:06

certainly know, well, I mean, when it's not

25:09

your native tongue, you're worried

25:11

about

25:13

being authentic and you're sort of thinking about

25:15

things and that takes you out of the spontaneity

25:18

of the normal flow of feelings, I suppose. Yeah,

25:22

there is research on love

25:24

and on curse words. They have a stronger

25:26

effect in the native language, but you

25:29

can see those differences in decision making

25:31

that have nothing to do with emotions like financial

25:33

allocations, savings,

25:36

ethics, cheating.

25:39

That changes across

25:41

native language versus second language. A

25:44

famous example, you probably have heard

25:46

of the Trolley Dilemma, this ethics dilemma.

25:49

So in a version of it, if you

25:52

pose the question in the native language versus

25:54

the second language, people answer differently. So

25:57

for listeners who don't know what this dilemma

25:59

is.

25:59

crazy. I'll back

26:02

up a little bit. So if you see a

26:04

trolley coming down and there

26:08

are five workmen say working on

26:10

the on the tracks and

26:12

the stroller is about to run over this five

26:14

workmen and kill them and you standing on

26:16

a food bridge next to a person with

26:18

a large backpack a large person and if

26:21

you push this person off the bridge the

26:23

person will die but it'll stop the

26:26

trolley and save the lives of five people.

26:28

So then the question becomes is it permissible

26:30

to sacrifice the life of one

26:33

person to save the life

26:35

of five? I don't know what did you

26:37

say to that? Well it's so interesting

26:39

I'm listening to your use of even English

26:42

and it's a little different than I would describe

26:44

the trolley experiment. I was thinking

26:46

to myself oh we're much more pragmatically

26:50

harsh about it more mechanistic because

26:52

we open the trolley experiment with you pull

26:55

a lever and you save

26:57

the five people but it runs over

26:59

some one guy. So are you are you doing

27:02

something about 90% of people will do that but

27:04

the the issue of the guy on

27:06

the bridge we don't use

27:08

words like permissible we just go would you do

27:10

it? Yeah but it's so interesting that permissible

27:12

it changed the experience for

27:17

me when you said that I thought oh is it permissible?

27:20

Well that's actually a bigger thought

27:22

than would I do it because is it

27:24

permissible sure but I don't

27:26

think I could do it and that's that's

27:30

interesting. It's interesting you said that because

27:32

you were saying it sounds like you're saying

27:35

yes permissible but I wouldn't do it if someone else

27:37

wants to do it but if it's the

27:39

lever more people are going to say yeah

27:41

they have to really push a person off

27:44

the bridge. I just think the

27:46

word pragmatic comes into my head we

27:48

have more pragmatic take on the trolley experiment

27:51

and then my being permissible versus not doing

27:53

is a pragmatic thing which is well I

27:56

could understand why somebody could do it and would do

27:58

it I I'm one of those people.

27:59

The only thing you said is because you were saying,

28:02

it sounds like you're saying, yeah,

28:04

it's permissible, but I wouldn't do it if someone else

28:06

wants to do it. But if it's the

28:08

lever, more people are going to say,

28:09

yeah, they have to really push a

28:11

person off the break. I

28:14

just think the word pragmatic comes into

28:16

my head. We have more pragmatic take on

28:18

the trolley experiment. And

28:20

my being permissible versus not doing is

28:22

a pragmatic thing, which is, well, I could understand

28:25

why somebody could do it and would do it. I'm

28:28

one of those people that proximity and looking a guy in the

28:30

eye, no way.

28:31

No way I could do that. So most

28:33

people, when they have to make this decision in their first

28:35

language, they are more likely to,

28:38

they are more guided by sort of deontological

28:41

variables. Is it right or wrong to

28:43

kill someone? And then when they're

28:45

doing in their second language, they're more likely to

28:47

be guided by utilitarian values.

28:51

What would benefit the greater good? So

28:53

more of an emotional. Yeah,

28:55

that's the more abstract thing.

28:57

That's interesting. Oh my God. And

29:00

it's not just that. You know, people, the

29:02

likelihood of cheating, the likelihood of saving

29:04

for it, just lots of behavior on

29:07

which people differ depending on which language

29:10

they're using at the time. So interesting we're having

29:12

this conversation

29:12

today, because I'm literally leaving for France in the

29:14

morning and I'll

29:17

be very interested

29:19

to see

29:19

how that

29:21

part,

29:21

I would not pay attention to that part normally. I just

29:23

be focused on getting the language right. But now I'm going to

29:26

try to get the whole experience, you know, how

29:28

I'm feeling about myself and other people and how

29:31

I express myself and oh my God,

29:33

I'm very excited now. But oh good. In

29:35

French I can give you some more ideas

29:37

for finding things to think

29:39

about. Yes, please. In French

29:41

is a romance language,

29:42

which means

29:43

that most inanimate

29:46

objects have grammatical gender. So

29:49

in English, glasses or

29:51

desk or cup, they're all referred to as

29:54

it. Whereas in French they are referred

29:56

to with either masculine pronoun

29:58

or feminine pronoun. rated, useful.

30:01

So, you know, little

30:04

grammatical aspects of language change

30:06

how we represent the world. Yes,

30:09

I could see that, especially, I think, places

30:11

too. Places have a, when they're

30:14

described with feminine pronouns

30:16

and things, it gets a little different. But, you know, one

30:19

thing I learned about, which I never occurred to me,

30:21

I was, again, I've been

30:23

just watching stuff, just listening to a lot of French,

30:25

I watch interviews and this and that and the one

30:28

person was talking about, I'm

30:31

forgetting what the topic was, but they were getting into

30:33

the way the masculine

30:35

and feminine and the pronouns that were there,

30:38

the articles that are put before it, are pronouns?

30:41

Articles. Yeah, the articles. And

30:45

they said, you know, when we are taught these languages,

30:47

the article is, we

30:49

learn it as part of the noun.

30:52

It's just part of the noun. It's not the

30:55

bird. It's loiseau. It's just,

30:58

that's it. And it's like, that

31:01

was an interesting thing to me because in English, we

31:03

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32:26

this is Eric Griffin. And I'm Brendan Chod. And I'm

32:28

Chris D'Elia. And we are Golden

32:30

Hour. All right, yeah, dude, we are. So check it out,

32:33

you know, check it out and stuff. Funniest podcast

32:35

in the land. Make sure you check us out. It is a grand

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subscribe to the channel and also our

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Patreon, patreon.com slash the golden

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hour. The golden hour podcast, or even listen

32:47

for free. We're here for you. Yep, stay

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everywhere. It's YouTube, it's all sorts of different

32:51

places, dude. If you aren't seeing it, it's

32:53

not because it's not where you listen, dude.

33:00

That's

33:01

just one of many examples that

33:03

really show how powerful language

33:05

is and how we think about the world. And

33:08

people, some people have paid a great

33:10

deal of money to learn how to use and

33:12

manipulate language and advertisement

33:15

and politics and relationships

33:18

to get us to the result

33:20

they want.

33:21

Well, that's another major

33:23

topic where the persuasion and that

33:26

kind of thing. Do you, is

33:28

it, the book includes stuff about that?

33:30

Yeah, so the first part of the book talks about

33:33

bilinguals, multilinguals at the individual level,

33:36

how it changes our feelings,

33:38

our thoughts, our relationships. And

33:40

then the second part takes it to

33:42

a broader society level like politics,

33:47

using it, using manipulation in language and

33:51

also

33:54

other types of languages, other kinds of

33:57

symbolic systems like artificial intelligence.

33:59

Languages, math

34:02

is the language as well. Music is

34:04

started with music, it's like full circle. All

34:06

of these are symbolic systems that use a

34:09

symbol to encode,

34:11

transmit and decode information at the

34:13

other end to transmit it across time and

34:15

space. So this

34:18

is sort of a continuum of different kinds of

34:20

symbolic systems. And

34:22

sometimes it helps with monolinguals who don't speak

34:24

another language to really think about math

34:26

and how learning math changed

34:29

how they think and how they represent number

34:31

and provide this heuristic, this shortcut

34:34

to think about a billion or a million

34:37

in the same way learning another language really

34:39

can reframe and change how we think.

34:42

Your classes right now, what kind of students are

34:45

you teaching, what do they come for? So

34:48

I'm in the communication sciences and disorders

34:50

department which means that we train

34:52

speech language pathologists to

34:56

a large extent because often people

34:59

who speak another language are misdiagnosed,

35:01

they are either under diagnosed or over diagnosed

35:04

as having a language disorder. So

35:07

being really helpful

35:10

to be able to differentiate difference from disorder

35:12

just because someone speaks with an accent or

35:15

makes grammatical errors that are consistent with

35:17

a native language doesn't mean that

35:19

they have a disorder. So that's

35:21

sort of the practical applied implication

35:23

to studying the relationship between

35:25

language and the mind and language and the brain. One

35:28

of my kids has shown some interest

35:30

in doing speech pathology training recently.

35:32

I may have him call you if you'll permit me at some point.

35:34

Oh yes, is your child in high

35:36

school or college? No, no, he's trying to find

35:39

his passion. He's

35:43

got a math degree, then he got a psychology degree

35:45

and then sort of getting interested in this. That's

35:49

all stuff, math and psychology. Math

35:51

is again the symbol part and the

35:53

communication part. The psycholinguistics

35:56

is

35:56

one of the things that speech language

35:58

pathologists do. So

36:01

my daughter decided to go into speech language pathology,

36:03

but she went into dysphagia, which is the study

36:05

of swallowing, a completely different

36:08

end of the spectrum. I studied the mind and

36:11

she started the biology of swallowing. Oh,

36:13

interesting. Yeah,

36:14

if your child is interested in speech language pathology,

36:16

there's an entire continuum from

36:19

swallowing and breathing to mind

36:21

language and lots of other things in between,

36:23

aphasia, dementia,

36:26

anything that has to do with human communication.

36:28

Yes. And I was always sort

36:30

of fascinated by aphasia and

36:32

stroke when I was in training because

36:35

they're so I

36:38

hate to say it, but they're, they get

36:40

your attention. They're what's going on here. What's

36:42

happening to this poor person? And

36:44

they're

36:46

multilingual aphasia even more so because

36:48

there are spaces of people who speak multiple languages

36:51

and then they may have a stroke. And let's say you

36:53

are a trilingual, you lose two languages,

36:55

but keep one. And then eventually you regain

36:58

one or you might regain them in

37:01

interesting unusual patterns. We're

37:03

still trying to really understand

37:06

how

37:07

the brain processes language. People used

37:09

to think, I'm sure you know that because

37:11

when you were in medical school, it probably was

37:14

covered as, you know, here's the Brokers area, here's the Vernon.

37:16

And then there's the

37:18

connecting, whatever they called that. Yeah, it

37:20

was very transitional. I forgot what they called it, but

37:22

it was very. I

37:25

learned lots of different aphasia. There was a book.

37:28

I forget what the book was. There was a book on aphasia.

37:30

I got fascinated with it and started reading

37:33

about aphasia, but very limited

37:36

correlation with the neurobiology. Like almost.

37:38

Right, because now we know that it's a network.

37:40

And so I'm often the most likely

37:43

question, one of the most likely questions I would get asked

37:45

if I fly on the plane and I'm sitting

37:47

next to someone they often ask is that are the

37:50

two languages representing the same with different

37:52

points in the brain, places

37:55

in the brain? And it's such a misguided question

37:57

because it's not like one language is here and one

37:59

language is there. It's really a network

38:02

that's involved in lexical

38:05

and phonological and semantic and so

38:07

many other things that's largely overlapping.

38:09

But yeah, the brain is for sure a fascinating

38:13

organ that we're still superorganism. I

38:15

say that we're still learning and have a lot

38:18

more to learn about.

38:19

Oh, my God. We just barely

38:21

scratching the surface. But yeah, it's interesting

38:23

to me that when I think about some of the advances

38:26

in neurobiology over the last 30

38:28

years, a

38:31

lot of it is in sort of the emotional and emotional

38:33

regulation system and then also in the

38:35

cognitive attentional stuff. Right.

38:39

But not so much with language that I've seen or at

38:41

least been reading about me. I was just missing that literature.

38:45

Yeah. So we just now I have

38:47

a new poster coming in with a clinical psychologist

38:50

and is interested precisely in

38:53

using language first

38:55

versus second language to help with emotional

38:57

regulation because

38:59

sometimes using a second language helps

39:02

the person distance from the trauma. And

39:05

and they are much more likely

39:08

to be able to work through it and talk

39:10

through it and process it. And sometimes using

39:12

the first language is what really helps.

39:15

So

39:16

emotions are so tied to language. There is

39:18

even this idea of language dependent

39:20

memory. We remember things differently depending

39:23

on the language we use. And if

39:25

we reinstate the same language as

39:27

those used at the time they then happened, it

39:29

can benefit therapy more. So you

39:31

can definitely use language

39:34

to help regulate emotion.

39:36

There's a guy named Stephen Porges that

39:40

has this vagal polyvagal theory

39:42

he calls it. But part of this is what he calls

39:44

a socio-emotional exchange system, which

39:47

is that some of the the efferents

39:50

from the vagus

39:54

nerve end up in

39:57

the muscles to the ear

39:59

and it.

39:59

the vocal cords. And

40:02

so you can adjust your vocal prosody

40:05

and your attunement to the vocal prosody. I

40:07

mean, think how mothers talk to babies and things, and

40:09

that's all very tied up in what's

40:12

coming out of the body through the vagus. Since

40:15

you mentioned the ear,

40:17

I have an interesting experiment

40:20

to tell you about that we ran.

40:23

So I don't know if you are familiar

40:26

with auto-acoustic emissions. No,

40:28

tell me. Yeah, so most people

40:30

know that the ear processes sound,

40:32

that you process

40:35

incoming sound, but it turns out that the

40:37

ear also produce sound. So

40:40

if you place a very sensitive

40:42

microphone inside

40:44

the ear, the mammalian ear

40:47

also produces what are known as spontaneous

40:49

auto-acoustic emissions. And we don't really

40:52

know what role they serve. Whether it's like

40:54

a vestigial thing, like the vestigial

40:56

tail, or their function

40:59

is not known. And for the longest time,

41:02

we used to think that there is no, we

41:05

don't know what it does. And we still don't know, but

41:07

we know that because

41:09

of including bilinguals and multilinguals

41:11

in an experimental non-acoustic

41:14

emissions, we found that people who

41:16

speak multiple languages modulate

41:19

auto-acoustic emissions in the stop-down

41:22

manner, which suggests that there might be more

41:24

to these auto-acoustic emissions that we now know.

41:26

And also really

41:29

drives home the point of including

41:32

linguistically diverse populations in research,

41:34

of not just studying monolinguals, to

41:36

get a fuller picture of the mind and the

41:38

brain. I wonder, I'm just,

41:40

I think about the eye always as the paradigm

41:43

for neurobiological insights.

41:45

And your eyes are moving constantly

41:48

for reasons we don't know. And I've always

41:50

thought it was to sort of get rid

41:52

of or sort of somehow blot

41:55

out things we don't need to see,

41:57

like arteries over our retina and things

41:59

like that. I'm wondering if the ear does something

42:02

to sort of

42:03

eliminate, you know,

42:06

background noise we don't need or something or some,

42:08

or maybe our, the veins going, the arteries,

42:10

you know, pulsing right behind the eardrum. Maybe

42:12

we don't need to hear that. And it sort of helps move it, move

42:15

it out of consciousness. I'm so glad

42:17

to brought up the eye because I was almost forgetting

42:19

to tell you about this. So eye movements are

42:21

my primary tool of measuring

42:24

the mind. So I record people's eye movements as they

42:26

perform different tasks. And then, well,

42:28

I also use EEG and fMRI, but I

42:31

started out with eye tracking and using

42:33

eye movements as an index of cognitive

42:36

processing. So what we find

42:38

is that as people

42:40

hear words, they don't turn off the other

42:42

language.

42:43

All their language is activated

42:45

in parallel. So if you hear a word, let's

42:47

say candy, and there

42:49

is a candle on the display, you're going to make

42:52

eye movements to the candle as well. Now

42:55

if you speak another language, let's say Spanish,

42:58

you are also going to make eye movements to a

43:00

petlock, because the Spanish word

43:02

for petlock is condado. So as you

43:04

hear one word, all words

43:06

and all languages that share

43:09

form or meaning are co-activated.

43:12

And we know that in part because people

43:14

make eye movements to this overlapping eye movements. Are

43:16

they just tiny movements or are they

43:19

actually going to that object, just don't

43:21

know it? They're just saccadic quick

43:23

movements that they're not aware of, which is why it's

43:26

so interesting, because it's not conscious eye

43:28

movements. They happen on the fly. We

43:30

only people are not aware they're making them. We

43:32

only know that they happen because we recorded their

43:34

eye movements. And then when we analyze

43:37

the data, we can see that

43:40

words that share form across languages

43:42

are fixated more, which tells

43:44

us that people never turn off the other language.

43:47

They keep both languages running. And

43:49

interestingly, they later remember

43:51

things differently. So if you speak

43:54

Spanish, you're more likely to remember that you

43:56

saw a petlock than if you speak

43:58

English, because the.

43:59

they're making them, we only know that they happened

44:02

because we recorded their eye movements. And

44:04

then when we analyze the data, we

44:06

can see that

44:09

words that share form across languages are

44:11

fixated more, which tells us

44:13

that people never turn off the other language.

44:15

They keep both languages running.

44:18

And interestingly, they later remember

44:20

things differently. So if you speak

44:23

Spanish, you're more likely to remember that you

44:25

saw pedlock than if you

44:27

speak English because the two words

44:29

share. You

44:32

have this sort of spreading activation with

44:36

each word, this network of other

44:38

words that share formal meaning that are co-activated

44:41

in this really parallel

44:43

activation process, a highly

44:46

interactive mind. And the more languages

44:48

you speak, the more

44:51

interactivity you see, which

44:53

later can change things

44:55

like creativity, it

44:58

has a lot of consequences, the fact

45:00

that you know

45:02

words in other languages. We

45:04

need to get more serious about teaching languages

45:06

in this country. I'm convinced of that. Or

45:11

at least if you are a bilingual parent,

45:13

I know

45:16

it's hard when you're raising kids, but maybe try to emphasize

45:19

all. I agree. And

45:21

as we're now in this precipice of this AI

45:23

revolution, people who speak

45:25

multiple

45:26

languages and computer languages are

45:28

also languages. They also form the

45:29

symbolic system. So a

45:32

lot of people in the Silicon Valley speak

45:34

more than one language, not just computer languages,

45:36

but natural languages. It really

45:39

changes how you think and how you think

45:42

about symbols and symbolic systems. So

45:44

when you think about things like chat GPT,

45:46

people will just go, it's just a language system.

45:49

It's just anticipating words. But I'm guessing

45:51

that's

45:51

a big

45:54

piece of our cognitive apparatus and

45:56

how it works. Yeah. why

46:00

there is research with babies that show that when

46:02

you give them streams

46:05

of sounds, their brain detects

46:08

probabilities of sounds co-occurring together.

46:11

And that's how humans learn language. We

46:13

are very good at extracting patterns from

46:15

our visual and auditory environment. What

46:18

is likely to go together statistically,

46:21

probabilistically? Yeah. I'm,

46:24

we don't yet know how different

46:26

this is

46:28

what we do with our mind from what AI

46:31

does. Of course, AI doesn't have, we

46:33

would somehow intention yet, it doesn't

46:35

have emotion yet.

46:36

But it's not, it's

46:39

not, there's not like a clear distinction

46:41

between these kind of processes.

46:44

And it's hard to know, at the

46:46

speed at which it's evolving, it's hard to say

46:48

that what it

46:51

does and the way it learns language is different

46:55

from the way

46:56

organic matter learns language.

47:00

I have one more topic I want to get into. But before

47:02

I do, I want to know if there's other things you, do

47:04

we cover your discipline? Is there

47:07

something else you'd like people to know? I

47:10

can talk about language forever,

47:12

as I'm sure you can talk about. I mean, just,

47:14

you know, I, there's so

47:16

much to talk about. And I think whatever's

47:19

of interest to you, I'm so happy to talk about

47:21

Daniel.

47:21

I want to finish up talking about,

47:24

you, we, we skated

47:26

past it, which was sort of manipulation

47:28

and advertising and neurolinguistic

47:31

processing, some people call

47:34

it. What's the state

47:36

of the art with that? Is that,

47:37

is that something highly developed these

47:39

days and people understand it? So

47:42

I, I, there's guys like, I mean, I don't think

47:44

of it as language people, those guys like, what's

47:48

the guy's name? I want

47:49

to say like, Chilonia. I forget his name.

47:51

I'll think of it a minute. That is sort of this expert

47:53

in persuasion, but he's not really a

47:55

language guy. Yeah,

47:58

I still with language, it's there. so many

48:00

books written about this. Oh, I will start with

48:02

a small example and then take it from there. When

48:04

my kids were very young, and if any of your listeners

48:07

have young kids, toddlers, let's say around two, they

48:09

can do this experiment with their own kids. And it

48:11

works beautifully, and people who over

48:13

here you will be flabbergasted. So I

48:16

would ask my kids all kind of questions like,

48:18

you know, a two-year-old, and I'd say, how much

48:20

is nine divided by three? And they'd say three.

48:23

And I'd say, how much is four minus

48:25

two? And they'd say two. And I'd say, how much is 124 multiplied

48:28

by zero? And they'd say zero. And I,

48:31

you know, who was the first president, Adams

48:33

or Washington? And they'd say Washington. So

48:35

any topic, you could ask them a question, and they knew

48:37

the answer. And people were always shocked

48:40

and amazed and thought, you know, is this child a

48:42

genius? Well, the

48:44

reason it worked is because I structured

48:46

those questions so that the answer

48:49

I wanted was always lost. Nine

48:53

divided by three, or 240 multiplied

48:56

by zero. Because kids go

48:58

through the stage where at

49:00

one point in language development, they always repeat

49:03

the last word of a sentence. Oh,

49:05

wow. And it can work so beautifully.

49:07

People can make TikToks and just show how

49:10

old, how old are they? It's viewed

49:11

by individuals, but around two, it

49:13

would take a few months. Mimicry,

49:16

mimicry, echolalia, this stuff. Humans

49:18

are highly, highly

49:19

set up for that. So

49:23

kids are not the only ones who fall for

49:25

this. Yeah,

49:26

adults do that too. And politicians

49:28

do that too. So you often, you know,

49:31

see people repeating the first syllable

49:33

of a word, which gives it

49:35

more weight, like, you know, save

49:37

social security, or it's

49:40

just lots of examples, like or relabeling

49:43

things. So changing the

49:45

estate tax into the death tax,

49:47

people are going to vote differently. Against

49:51

the death tax, which brings to mind

49:53

the death of the loved ones versus an estate

49:55

tax, which brings to mind taxing

49:58

the wealthy. So

49:59

people who are repeating

50:00

the first syllable of a word, which

50:03

gives it more weight, like, you know, save

50:06

social security, or it's

50:09

just lots of examples, like, or relabeling

50:11

things. So changing the estate

50:14

tax into the death tax. People are going

50:17

to vote differently against

50:20

the death tax, which brings to mind

50:22

the death of the loved ones versus an estate

50:24

tax, which brings to mind taxing

50:27

of the wealthy. So just

50:29

changing the label, something immediately

50:31

changes how people think about it and how they're going

50:34

to vote. And there are lots of things like this

50:36

in language, in consumer language

50:38

that can be used to

50:41

influence our outcomes,

50:43

our decision making. There is just now

50:45

starting to be some research

50:48

that suggests that people who speak more than two

50:50

languages, more than one language, are less susceptible

50:52

to linguistic manipulation, because

50:55

they are just so, they're more clued

50:57

in to subtle small variations

51:00

between languages. So

51:02

if you hear some, this is a study from Norway,

51:04

if you hear a sentence like, more

51:07

men have been to London than I have, or

51:10

more people have graduated from college than

51:12

I have, than he has. That's

51:15

not grammatically correct, of course, and it doesn't make

51:17

any sense as a statement. So if

51:20

you speak more than one language, you're more likely

51:22

to notice that.

51:23

I see.

51:24

And that judgment. But

51:29

the more you are aware of the power

51:32

of language in shaping how we think,

51:34

the less susceptible

51:36

you will hopefully be to

51:38

all this linguistic manipulations that we are

51:41

surrounded by all the time.

51:42

All the time. I remember the guy saying now it's Cialdini.

51:45

Cialdini is his name. He writes

51:47

a book. I hear a new book called Presuasion,

51:50

which is that there is a way to set people up

51:52

with language so they're more likely to go

51:54

in a certain direction.

51:56

Psychology of language is a fascinating

51:59

topic.