0:14

Pushkin. Hey

0:18

dream listeners, if you like this podcast,

0:20

you're gonna love the book. Yeah.

0:22

I wrote a book. It's called Selling the Dream

0:25

and it's coming out March twelfth, twenty twenty

0:27

four, on Atria. It's

0:29

about all of your favorite characters from

0:32

MLMs and some that you've never even

0:34

heard of. I hope check it

0:36

out, Hey,

0:38

dream listeners. Jane here with

0:40

one of two bonus episodes this

0:43

season. On The Dream, we looked into the world of life

0:45

coaching, and on today's show, we're

0:47

going to hear from now world famous former

0:49

life coach Sarah Edmondson. Have

0:52

you heard of her? She and her partner

0:54

Nippy were featured prominently in the documentary

0:57

The Vow on HBO. It's all

0:59

about the Nexium Life Coaching MLM

1:01

turned creepy criminal cult. Sarah

1:05

was once a devotee of its leader, Keith Ranieri,

1:08

but after some her events, including

1:10

Sarah being branded, they became

1:12

whistleblowers. Obviously,

1:14

Sarah's experience with the group didn't start out

1:16

that terribly, and I was curious,

1:18

like, how do you go from having really

1:20

great intentions wanting to help others,

1:23

wanting to improve your own life, to

1:26

you know, being in a terribly

1:29

scary, awful cult.

1:34

If you could just start by telling me your name and a little

1:36

about yourself. Sure, But first, can I say it's

1:39

a dream come true to

1:41

be on the show, for

1:45

me to be talking to you. I'm like,

1:47

I was obsessed with the documentary.

1:49

Well, anyway, why don't you tell us your name? Sure

1:51

you are, and where you're from and all of that stuff. Sure,

1:54

my name is Sarah Edmondson. I'm from Vancouver, Canada

1:56

originally I now live in Atlanta, Georgia. I

1:59

was in a cult for twelve years. Didn't know it as a cult.

2:01

Thought it was a personal and professional development program

2:03

that taught goal setting and coaching and

2:05

living your best life type seminars. And

2:08

when I figured out it was not that, we

2:11

went to the authorities, then

2:13

the press, and then the

2:15

leaders in jail for one hundred and twenty years.

2:18

How's that for good summary? Great?

2:20

What's the name of the color? Sorry,

2:23

I'm so good at doing the cliff notes. I dropped

2:25

the call. Well, I knew it as

2:27

Executive Success Programs, and

2:31

later, if for the sake of ease and

2:33

all the different rebranding that the company

2:35

tried to do, we call it an xim. It's

2:38

known in the press as anxim n XIVM, not

2:40

an e xium, which

2:42

is the heartburn medication. Can

2:45

you just talk about where you were in your life when when

2:48

you first were

2:50

introduced to executive success

2:53

programs? Is that what it's called. Yeah, Executive Success

2:55

programs are ESP. We called

2:57

it, which is a weird acronym. NSP

3:00

means extra sensory perception, right, yes,

3:02

well it's like a witchy

3:04

thing, which we actually realized later that

3:06

Keith loved to name his things, you

3:08

know, different lots of double

3:11

entendres. So nexium,

3:14

we found out later comes from the root word. I think

3:16

it's nexus, which is I

3:18

want to say, like Greek or Roman for indentured

3:22

servitude and like debt bondage.

3:24

And yeah, so like there's things that you wouldn't

3:28

when you do the research, you're like, well, that makes sense that he

3:30

had that in the back of his mind, but we didn't

3:32

know at the time. And dos dominus

3:35

sqm cerroriium or something like that. But dos

3:38

is also like he was an eighties

3:40

computer nerd, and we just also know what doss means,

3:42

so like it has double everything had double meanings

3:45

for him, Okay, yeah,

3:47

yes, esp. So what was going on in my time In

3:49

that time of my life is I was a aspiring

3:52

actress. I was also, of course a waitress.

3:55

I had big dreams and

3:57

for myself in terms of like finding my purpose

4:00

and eventually getting so famous that I could

4:02

have a stage and have a voice for

4:05

various causes that I was passionate about, including

4:07

you know, having an impact on the world, in the world

4:09

a lot of idealistic sort

4:13

of values that my social

4:15

activists, left leaning hippie parents

4:17

taught to me. And so yeah,

4:25

the day that entered my life, I was in a place

4:28

where I was very much into manifesting

4:32

and setting intentions. And

4:35

this would have been like two thousand and five, right

4:38

What the Bleep had just come out for

4:40

our listeners, can you just, oh sure, yeah,

4:43

describe it briefly. What the Bleep Do We Know was

4:46

a hugely successful documentary and

4:48

I think it came out in two thousand and three or four, and it

4:50

was looked at how

4:53

you create your own reality in terms of like your

4:55

beliefs and your thoughts, and it was like spirituality

4:57

meets quantum physics, Like what's the

5:00

physics of the spirituality, so like,

5:02

how do you actually think about things will

5:04

affect the things around you? And it talked like

5:06

it looked at water when you were projected

5:09

love onto it versus hate and things like

5:11

that, and it got into like the science of spirituality

5:13

and it was quite groundbreaking at the time. And

5:17

my boyfriend that I was with at that time

5:20

was a filmmaker and he got into this film

5:23

festival called the Spiritual Cinema

5:25

Circle Festival at Sea. This is

5:27

a group that is no longer in existence

5:29

as far as I know, or at least the crew. This was a cruise

5:32

of spiritual filmmakers and my boyfriend

5:35

got accepted and I was like, well, I'm coming with you because

5:37

I'm going to meet all these spiritual filmmakers

5:39

and do real cruise and

5:42

beyond a cruise to go

5:44

to the Bahamas, I mean, like what better place

5:46

to be? And I

5:49

set the intention of

5:50

of of finding my purpose. And

5:54

on the very first day, and before I met the

5:57

director of What the Bleep, I met another man

5:59

named Richard who's still a friend of mine, on

6:01

the first day who gave me a copy of his book

6:03

which was called What's Your Purpose? And

6:06

I thought, wow, I am in the right place,

6:08

and I was just so open to the universe

6:11

just showing me what I'm like. I nailed it. I

6:13

nailed this right away, right away.

6:16

And then that I've only been on one cruise and

6:18

it was a Coachella cruise, so there was none of

6:20

that different vibe,

6:22

although maybe some overlap with people. It

6:25

was a very niche audience, and I felt I was just

6:27

so excited because I've been doing like beer commercials

6:29

and vampire TV shows and like just

6:32

stupid sci fi television

6:35

that like didn't fill my cup, you know, and like,

6:37

there's more for me here. So I

6:40

met Richard, I got his book, and then that night,

6:42

like the very first night, it was a science seating

6:44

and my boyfriend and I were assigned to

6:46

sit across from a very distinguished

6:50

man and his girlfriend, which I later

6:52

came to understand was the director of What the Bleep Again?

6:55

Divine timing. Here I am being sat

6:58

across from Mark Vicente. We're

7:01

talking about spirituality, we're talking about shifting

7:03

consciousness, we're talking about filmmaking, We're talking

7:05

about all the things. I'm like, it couldn't have

7:07

felt more vine in

7:09

all the ways, and we became

7:12

friends. Mark and his girlfri his girlfriend

7:14

at the time, me and my boyfriend, and we spent

7:16

the seven days together. We were fast friends,

7:19

and Mark was

7:21

the judge of the films, and I think my boyfriend won

7:23

an award and was all very exciting. Meanwhile,

7:26

Mark's telling us about a program that he just came

7:29

out of that was incredible, and he basically

7:31

said, well, if you liked my

7:33

film, then you would love this curriculum.

7:39

Mark was pitching Nexium, which

7:41

at the time was simply selling coaching courses,

7:44

stuff involving that neuro linguistic programming

7:46

we've talked about and getting out of your

7:48

own way, that sort of stuff. But it was

7:50

also an MLM, and recruits

7:53

were told that if they recruited others they

7:55

would be rewarded. But

7:57

we all know that's not true, right guys.

8:07

I mean, looking back, there was a lot of red

8:09

flags that I missed. He spoke about

8:11

Keith R. Nieri as being one of the smart smartest

8:13

men in the world, and he was decided to use his

8:16

genius to create a curriculum

8:18

that would help people, you

8:20

know, evolve their I think he even used

8:22

the word disintegrations, which is the next

8:24

word for you know what's

8:27

what's an English what's a real word for that? The

8:31

flaws in our in our programming, they

8:33

used a lot of computer analogies. Like

8:36

what you said in season three with

8:38

the guy who was doing an LP was exactly

8:40

that. And I said the exact same thing when I later

8:43

learned to pitch it. We have hardware and we got

8:45

software, and our software has got glitches, and we got

8:47

to upgrade that software, and we

8:49

have the tools to do it in a very short time,

8:51

and let's do it the most efficient way. Go

8:54

Vanguard. Hmm. So that was that

8:56

was it, and I jumped in. It

8:58

just happened again the universe had

9:01

lined it all up so nicely for me. The very

9:03

first Canadian five day training

9:05

was going to be happening like less than a month later

9:07

in Vancouver. So and I heard about

9:09

it where I lived at the time. Yeah, even though I

9:11

was hearing about this in the Caribbean, he

9:14

and I were both just like, let's do it.

9:17

But it just happened that there was another

9:19

woman on the cruise

9:22

who was also there was then

9:24

started chasing us around the cruise

9:26

ship with this paperwork to sign to get the

9:28

forty eight hour discount. And oh

9:31

yeah, this was very

9:33

multi level market super multi level marketing.

9:36

And I was if I knowing what I know now, I

9:38

probably wouldn't have even signed up because I would

9:40

have been like, you're trying to pressure me. You're using

9:42

scarcity mentality and

9:45

like there's only a few spots left and like

9:47

trying to you know, all the things that I

9:49

now know are tactics. But at

9:52

the same time, I wanted

9:55

I wanted the twenty percent off because I was

9:57

like, well, I'm going to do it, so I might

9:59

as well just do it. And I

10:01

signed us both up. And they also said they

10:03

also this thing that was called three and it's

10:05

free, so you could sign up three people and get your money

10:07

back. So so they were like,

10:09

well, if you sign up your boyfriend, that

10:12

will count as one of your three.

10:14

So and I only needed to find two more after

10:17

that, and I'm like, well I can do that, like assume

10:19

me. I'm gonna get it. It It was two one

10:22

hundred and sixty dollars, yeah, twenty dollars,

10:24

yeah, twenty one sixty you

10:27

yeah. How much was the cruise? Oh god,

10:29

I don't even know. Less than that because we were guests.

10:32

We just had to get there. It's so cheap, but

10:36

you know, chasing you around a place like

10:39

like a cruise ship for

10:41

two thousand dollars. Wow, yes,

10:44

yeah, and you went for it and I went for it,

10:46

and that's it. I mean, keep in mind, like my rent

10:48

at that time was four hundred

10:50

dollars a month so and hard

10:52

to make and hard to make, so that was a big

10:54

jump. So actually when I got home,

10:57

I think I talked about this in my book too, Like I freaked

11:00

out and I came to my senses and was out

11:02

out of the sort of reverie of

11:04

the of the dreamlike you know, aspect

11:07

of being on this cruise at allways, and it wasn't incredible,

11:09

Like it was a wonderful

11:12

seven days. I met Neil Simon

11:14

who wrote What Dreams May Come with Robin Williams

11:16

like or directed and produced. I mean, like I met some

11:19

incredible people in the film industry

11:21

who were all so spiritual. And so when

11:23

I came back from all that, I

11:25

landed back in reality and I ended up calling

11:28

like the ESP headquarters and being like,

11:30

I put this deposit down, I is there anyway

11:32

and can get my money back because I put five

11:34

hundred dollars down of the twenty one sixty to

11:37

secure the discount. So I put five hundred dollars

11:39

down and I was like, freaked out, I don't even have that, and

11:41

they it was actually a woman who I'm not friends

11:44

with so we can laugh about it. But her name is Barbara

11:46

Bouchet, and she was like the top salesperson.

11:48

And she said to me, wait,

11:50

you're twenty eight years old and you don't have five hundred dollars

11:53

out.

11:56

What are you going to do differently in your life if

11:58

you're not going to address your money issues right?

12:02

And like sickburn, but sickburn,

12:04

I'm in. Well, I was totally in

12:07

until she said because of my other excuse

12:09

was you know, I'm an actor and I don't know if I

12:11

can take five days away, like I really need

12:13

to be available for auditions and stuff like that. And

12:15

she said, so you're waiting for your agent to

12:17

call. Is your agent going to be the director

12:19

of your life? Or would you like to be the master of your own ship?

12:23

Yeah? So between those two things, I was

12:25

like, you know, she has a point, and so

12:28

I think Yeah. It was a week or two later and I end

12:30

up going to this pretty Rundown

12:33

Holiday Inn in Burnaby, which is a suburb

12:35

of Vancouver. And needless

12:37

to say, I was this sounds totally legit and think

12:39

you're about to make so much money and

12:41

be so successful. Yes, I was sorry.

12:44

It was really run down. It was not executive

12:46

success. And I remember thinking like for

12:48

the amount of money we paid, we should have more

12:50

than a bread garden, which is sort of like Canada's

12:52

Panera, Like a okay, yeah,

12:55

it's like a very simple like sandwiches

12:57

and maybe some boiled eggs and croissants

13:00

for breakfast. And I was like, I'm

13:03

gluten free. This sucks, but

13:07

but I was like I kept facillating between

13:09

being like, all right, I pay this money, let's do this, and then also

13:12

being very skeptical, very

13:15

judgy of all of the coaches cheesy

13:17

power suits, and there

13:19

was like, I want to say, twelve

13:22

coaches and nine students. There was a

13:24

big coach to student ratio in

13:26

that particular training because it was the first one they'd done

13:28

in Canada. There's only nine of us. I

13:32

was really turned off from the beginning. I

13:34

was super like just

13:36

the whole presentation was cheesy,

13:38

it was dated, it was this is

13:41

two thousand and five, and I want to feel like it was ninety

13:43

it was nineties, like it was just

13:45

just it was dated. And the

13:47

video there's a video component. The first time you're

13:49

introduced to Nancy Salzman, who's the president

13:51

of the company, it's on a video and

13:54

it's got like the fluorescent

13:56

pink block letters. And

13:59

this is not necessarily like not much

14:01

of that was seen in the vow because they readd the videos

14:03

at a certain point. But the old videos

14:06

were like next level cheesy, and I just remember

14:08

feeling like, what have I signed up for? And you know,

14:10

my parents are therapists, and this is like fast

14:13

track to to therapy essentially,

14:15

is what they're saying, Like therapy is just talking about your

14:17

issues. This is going to get to the root cause of it. And

14:21

they also at the very beginning were very

14:23

smart about what I've since

14:25

learned because I learned to do the same thing called preempting

14:29

UH and using remote

14:31

setups with your techniques to basically

14:35

have people dismiss

14:38

their concerns as they come up. And then they

14:40

got they got ahead of it, you

14:42

know what I mean, they have to do that. So they got ahead

14:45

of it by saying like wouldn't

14:48

you agree that all successful people

14:51

know their limitations? And

14:54

we're like, yeah, yeah,

14:56

sure, all successful people know their

14:58

limitations. So at

15:01

that point, if you don't admit you have limitations,

15:04

you're not successful. Okay,

15:07

so we're they're double binds in the room. Remote

15:09

setups are getting people in the audience to go okay

15:12

through her questions, remote setups and

15:14

these this technique from the front of the room. Okay,

15:16

I have limitations. I'm here to be successful.

15:18

Oh no, I am successful. You don't. No one's saying

15:20

I'm not successful, right,

15:24

And wouldn't you agree that to work

15:26

through anything new, you're gonna hit discomfort,

15:28

no paid, no gain. Right. So when you're uncomfortable

15:31

and you have the urge to leave, the urge

15:33

to bolt, which is very normal, You're

15:36

gonna want to go to the bathroom, You're gonna want to eat, you're gonna

15:38

want to smoke, you want to flirt, all the things that

15:40

happened, which is also true. Like if you ever

15:42

done therapy, and I know you've done your coaching path

15:44

with Jesse, like it's uncomfortable right to look

15:46

at your shit. Yeah, so that's true.

15:49

So what it also does, though, is

15:51

it helps you sit

15:54

on your instinct to get the fuck

15:56

out when it doesn't feel right right.

15:59

So that's the kind of confusing thing. And a lot of

16:01

these groups do this and

16:03

I've since learned that this is that's like the main

16:05

tactic is to is to override

16:07

your intuition, and say, your intuition

16:10

in this case is riddled with limiting

16:13

beliefs. So for example, if you're uncomfortable

16:15

when we present something, hey,

16:17

we're gonna present It's just a piece of fabric. We're gonna

16:19

put it around your neck. It represents your

16:22

level of growth in this karate like

16:24

system. So the

16:26

very first class was called rules and Rituals. We're

16:28

gonna go through all the things we do. You're gonna feel uncomfortable.

16:31

We ask you to think about why this thing is making

16:33

you uncomfortable, talk about it with a coach, don't

16:35

leave, don't go smoke. Let's look at it while

16:37

you're here. It's just a piece of fabric, okay.

16:40

And what are the remote setups? So remote

16:43

setups are when you say something from

16:45

the front of the room that somebody

16:47

would hear. It's like when you're

16:49

addressing someone's issue who's

16:51

sitting in the room instead of calling them out and being

16:53

like Jane, you're just being defiant

16:56

right now, or like Jane, you're so close

16:58

minded because whatever, I'm trying to think of some of

17:00

the things you talked about, like you just want to eat your junk food

17:03

and you know, and so instead

17:05

of calling you out, I could say from

17:08

the front, and this is I did all the time.

17:10

Later, if I knew what somebody was working

17:12

through, Like if I knew that Jane Marie was coming

17:14

to my training and she was trying to like naugh eat junk food,

17:17

I might say something like, you

17:19

know, I'm so glad y'all are here. This has been such

17:21

an incredible training for me. I've worked through so many issues.

17:23

That's helped me with my acting. It's helped me in my relationships. I've

17:26

had things that I've tried to cut out of my life, like

17:28

unhealthy eating or like certain habits

17:30

that didn't serve me anymore. And I will tell you

17:32

these tools are going to help you. Blah

17:35

blah blah blah blah. So like that's a remote setup.

17:37

So you're in the audience going wow, Like this is a good

17:39

place for me because I can overcome

17:41

my junk food addiction because

17:44

Sarah is up there, so I'm not. It

17:46

just sort of seems people used to say all the time, like

17:48

I think they might be siting you might feel psychic.

17:51

And part of it was because we

17:53

were reading the intake sheets and sharing

17:55

the information with the other coaches so that we

17:58

could weave it in with these remote setups.

18:00

And after twelve years of talking

18:02

to people and hearing their goals and understanding

18:05

their backgrounds, there was only so many

18:07

kind of patterns tendencies,

18:10

so that like I might meet somebody

18:12

that I was coaching a new person and they'd say a couple of

18:14

things and I'd say, oh, okay, your parents are divorced,

18:17

and I hadn't read that in it didn take sheet. I

18:19

just made that assumption because of a couple of things they

18:21

said, And I just assumed, and it often was right,

18:23

because well, you're right half the time,

18:25

yes, at least, because you know half

18:27

of people are divorced. Right, that's true

18:29

too half the time fifty percent chance of being

18:31

right. And maybe

18:34

also some other things I picked up on. And

18:36

then plus you throw the intake sheet in and I look

18:38

like a wizard, you know. I

18:43

felt so helped. I really wanted to

18:45

be able to do that for other people. That was

18:47

the main thing and I and then I thought, wow, this is great

18:49

because when I was deciding between acting

18:52

and psychology back in the day, when I was choosing

18:54

my degree, I was like, well, I can still pursue acting

18:56

and I can still be

18:58

a coach, which with my mind was the same as being a

19:00

therapist but better. So

19:10

you get out of this terrible cult situation

19:13

that becomes physically abusive, that

19:15

becomes just incredibly

19:18

unhealthy, and does

19:21

it change your thinking about the

19:23

coaching world. Absolutely.

19:25

I mean there's just certain words

19:28

like coach or goals

19:31

or success or

19:33

limiting beliefs that are just like so

19:35

cringey for me to even

19:38

hear, Like I don't when

19:40

people tell me that they're a coach, I'm like,

19:42

oh really, I'm so skeptical. I'm like based

19:45

on what and I loved

19:47

actually what you said in your series about like when you want

19:49

to become a better soccer player, you go

19:51

find someone who teaches soccer

19:53

better, it plays better than you. And

19:56

so many of these people are not succeeding

19:58

in their life in any way, shape or form.

20:01

Why would you trust them? To

20:04

guide you, and I

20:06

guess, and that's the thing with my therapist. I don't

20:08

have that at all. But that's because I

20:10

know for certain she

20:14

was had rigorous training

20:16

and it doesn't really matter if her life

20:19

is perfect and right, it seems perfect from the

20:21

outside, but it doesn't really matter because she's following

20:23

rules. Yes, that are

20:25

state sanctioned, I guess, And yeah,

20:28

and there's a regulatory body and if she

20:30

wasn't, if she was breaking rules, she would be

20:33

you know, in trouble and perhaps face

20:35

charges and all of that. Yeah,

20:37

like there's a regulatory there's a system

20:40

around her that if she was doing bad

20:42

things to me that

20:45

is you know, she's she would get in trouble

20:47

and los her license and all of that stuff. So it doesn't

20:50

you know, it's different. It is also

20:52

different because they're following a modality that

20:54

they've trained under, and if their life's

20:56

like not perfect or like they have their

20:58

own issues, that's not really relevant to

21:01

because they're using the modality, whereas the coaching

21:03

doesn't have a modality. It's just like, you

21:06

know, let me give you advice, right,

21:08

what are the warning signs

21:10

people should look for? I had a

21:12

really good experience with my life coach,

21:15

right, And when I talk about

21:19

how to shop for a life coach, where I start

21:21

as like taking a really good inventory

21:23

of what I needed, you know, being really really

21:25

honest with myself about what I could

21:27

possibly get from a coach, what I thought I

21:29

would be able to listen to and follow,

21:33

and having you know, kind of convictions

21:35

around that before even choosing a person, because

21:38

you can be enticed by just about anybody, you

21:40

know. I thought that was actually very

21:43

smart that you had your list

21:45

first going in. Yeah, before

21:47

I met this person at all, I thought, well, I

21:50

know that what really is bumming

21:52

me out is that I don't want

21:54

to get up in the morning, and I don't want to move

21:56

my body, and I don't want to eat good food. And I know those things

21:58

would make a huge difference because

22:01

sadly, you do get happier when

22:03

you work out more, and all of that stuff is true,

22:06

and it would be really nice if I could just like take a nap

22:08

all day and be happy. But yeah,

22:11

I knew that those things would make the biggest

22:13

impact on me in a short

22:15

amount of time, and it totally worked. And

22:18

so I tell people to kind of like figure

22:21

out is it spirituality that

22:23

you're searching for? Is it you know, what's

22:25

the what's the thing that's gonna work

22:28

for you? And don't just sign up for

22:30

any anybody anybody's

22:33

curriculum. So what what should

22:35

people look out for so they if they are going

22:37

to get a coach, they don't end up in the scenario

22:40

you found yourself in. Yeah,

22:43

that's a great question. I'd say, like

22:46

figure out where they got there

22:48

first of like where do they get their training? Like

22:51

what's their background? Do

22:53

they just get a certificate online

22:56

or put on their business cards? Like where where

22:58

do they learn to coach from?

23:03

I'm I honestly, like am

23:07

pretty skeptical about the coaching industry.

23:09

Look, I rather say get a therapist.

23:12

But if if somebody wants a coach

23:15

to help them in their lives, I'm more

23:17

apt to say, Like if it's if

23:19

they're actors, like get an acting coach. But that being

23:21

said, there's a ton of culti acting

23:24

teachers out there. That's a

23:26

a whole separate thing. But like you know, if it's

23:28

a bit if they're in business, specifically getting

23:30

a business coach, which

23:32

is different than like the

23:34

business coaches in an MLM circle,

23:37

because that's like you'd expose

23:40

there's people who have zero credentials

23:42

walking around trying to tell people what to

23:44

do. But I would say,

23:46

like, let's just say you're going to find a coach

23:48

and you want them to help help you in your life. Look

23:52

for love bombing. Look look

23:54

for somebody who's just like making

23:56

you feel really good at first and buttering

23:59

you up and

24:01

with that, like deep eye gazing

24:04

is something that I think is definitely

24:08

a red flag. Any

24:10

encouragement to distance or

24:12

cut off from friends who like

24:14

aren't doing the work right

24:17

is key. Jennifer had that with

24:21

Yes and Arbond and with you

24:23

know Ray Higden where he said don't be around

24:25

sick people or poor people. Yes,

24:28

you know, I mean there is a there is a

24:30

reality to like, if you've got people in your life who are

24:32

super toxic and abusive, like that's that's

24:35

different. But if they don't, if the people don't

24:37

get it and they're at supportive of you, that's

24:39

different. That's not being toxic and

24:41

abusive. Right, loaded

24:44

language like having your own little language

24:48

that's separate from everybody else. Thought

24:51

terminating cliches. If you're

24:53

like asking questions and you feel shut

24:55

down by by

24:58

Like if somebody says, well, that's just your like the next

25:00

thing we used to always say, well, that's just your life issue,

25:04

which is not illegitimate. Yeah,

25:09

I'm like, oh, it's just my life issue, obvious. And

25:11

then and then what do I do with that? I'm like, we'll go journal

25:13

on it, like just or go sit with that. So

25:15

that's my life issue? Is like, okay,

25:18

that's everything. What Oh

25:20

that's not terrible? I know. Yeah,

25:23

So you feel differently about coaching? Is there some

25:25

think about it? Did you have any good like positive

25:28

takeaways? Yeah?

25:30

I mean I got I got a

25:32

lot of positive takeaways. What's been part of

25:35

my you know, healing journey is

25:37

deciding whether to throw the baby out with

25:39

the bath water. And there actually isn't you

25:42

know, amongst us ex Naxium members, and

25:46

there's a whole other you know, that's another

25:48

hour of how I got out and how I figured

25:50

that, figured it out and all that stuff. But even

25:52

within our little community of xi

25:55

xpions or ex nacci nexioms people,

25:58

whatever you want to call us, is that some people

26:01

are like, no, I throw it all out, Like if you have water with

26:03

a bit of shit in it, like it's tainted, right, like,

26:05

just check it out. But what I've

26:07

I'm personally not willing to do that because I put

26:10

so much time and effort into it. I feel like

26:13

I needed, I needed for me, needed to separate

26:16

what was his, what was Keith's,

26:18

Nancy's, and what was just things

26:20

from other places? What's neural linguistic?

26:23

A lot of it was a lot of it was neural linguistic

26:25

programming, A lot of it was

26:27

Buddhism. A lot of it was just

26:30

like tenants from any goals program

26:33

in terms of how to like push through

26:35

and create the things you want in your life. So

26:37

for me to check that all out would be a

26:39

waste of time. And I'm all

26:42

about efficiency. So

26:44

I spent the time trying to fit and

26:46

Nippy and I are still doing that. We're still being like,

26:49

wait, I have this thing, like is

26:51

that like do we think that? Or did you think that?

26:53

Or where did it come from originally? And then then

26:55

we you know, then we and then we can think about

26:57

if we want to keep it because all of these

26:59

things are just stolen from

27:02

our art. I have someone to parse that

27:04

out. I'm so lucky. So many people

27:07

left alone and you

27:09

know, or went back to their families who were, like I told you,

27:11

were in a cult. Like so

27:14

they're, you know, just stuck with their own

27:16

process. And I feel very lucky

27:18

to have Nippy and I we talk about

27:20

all the time, and yeah,

27:24

it's ongoing for sure. Though. The

27:42

Dream is written, hosted, and executive produced

27:44

by me Jane Marie. Our

27:46

producer is Mike Richter, with help from Nancy

27:48

Golumbiski and Joy Sandford. Our

27:51

editor is Peter Clowney. The Dream

27:53

is a co production of Little Everywhere in Pushkin

27:55

Industries. He

28:09

came behind