0:14

Pushkin.

0:18

Hey, dream listeners, if you like this podcast,

0:20

you're gonna love the book.

0:22

Yeah.

0:22

I wrote a book. It's called Selling the Dream

0:25

and it's coming out March twelfth, twenty twenty

0:27

four, on Atria. It's

0:29

about all of your favorite characters from

0:32

MLMs and some that you've never even

0:34

heard of. I hope check it

0:36

out. He's

0:39

a hypnotherapist.

0:40

Oh.

0:40

He does NLP neural linguistic

0:42

programming, which I don't think is

0:44

a real thing. I mean it's a real thing and that people

0:47

like claim that they know that

0:49

they're educated in it, but it's a pseudoscience,

0:52

right.

0:52

I mean, isn't it normally associated

0:55

with cult in manipulation.

0:57

Yeah, that's how it's going to Yeah, and.

0:59

I recognized it as neural

1:02

linguistic programming. And

1:04

then he started

1:06

to use all of these tactics

1:08

like in control, behavior control,

1:11

emotional control. He started like telling

1:13

us what emotions were acceptable and

1:15

one's what we're not, And like my

1:18

brain was like firing on all

1:20

cylinders, like I'm like I could. I

1:22

was just like checking off everything that I

1:24

was reading about. He is emotionally

1:27

manipulating us right now. He is

1:29

controlling us.

1:34

Okay, let's get back into that whole mindset

1:37

thing. But all life coaches rely.

1:39

On when you tell your

1:41

mind what's important to you. There

1:43

is extraordinary science that

1:46

proves that your mind

1:48

has a live and ever changing

1:51

filter, a live network that

1:53

changes how it views

1:55

the world, what it lets in, what it blocks

1:57

out. And if you program your mind

1:59

correctly, and if you're clear about

2:01

what you want to create, your mind

2:04

will help you get what you want.

2:06

Why don't they watch your language? Are

2:09

our words shape the way

2:11

we think and how we feel, and

2:13

how we feel determines what we do, and

2:16

what we do determines whether they get results or not. I'm

2:18

talking about being aware that there are certain

2:20

words that you use, everyone individually

2:23

uses that puts you your energy up

2:25

and some that put it down. Certain

2:27

words and phrases start

2:29

to limit you. Certain words and phrases

2:32

free you. By transforming the

2:34

words you use regularly, you literally

2:36

change your biochemistry, your

2:38

emotions, your thinking, and

2:40

your actions.

2:42

Let's say you decide to make some chocolate chip

2:44

cookies. You get out

2:46

a bowl, You add the milk, you add the flour,

2:49

the brown sugar, the egg. But

2:51

what have I told you that

2:53

the cookies changed the

2:55

way they tasted based on the

2:57

bowl you picked. That's

2:59

what language is. Language does

3:02

not just communicate emotion,

3:05

It shapes what we're feeling.

3:09

That was mel Robin's Tony Robins and

3:11

Burnet Brown who forgot to add chocolate

3:14

chips to that chocolate chip cookie recipe. That was

3:16

a weird metaphor for something. What

3:18

all this sounds like to me is manifesting

3:21

or envisioning or whatever. But the keywords

3:23

they're using are brain and language and programming.

3:26

The combination of those three things, the way

3:29

you think, the words you use, and the stuff

3:31

you've been programmed to believe. It

3:33

has a name all the experts know, neuro

3:36

linguistic programming, or NLP.

3:39

Tony Robbins is an outright proponent

3:41

and expert in NLP, and it

3:43

has seeped into almost every corner of the coaching

3:46

world. But the scientific world

3:48

says it's complete huey, which made

3:50

it really hard to find someone reputable to

3:52

talk about it. Academics simply

3:54

don't take it seriously. The first

3:56

sentence on Wikipedia's page about NLP

3:59

reads neuro linguistic programming.

4:02

NLP is a pseudoscientific approach

4:04

to communication, personal development,

4:06

and psychotherapy. So

4:09

the Tony Robbins, the expensive workshops,

4:11

the pseudoscience. I mean, NLP is not great

4:14

at being taken seriously, at least by

4:16

me, just like weed, but there's no ignoring

4:18

its impact on coaching. Finally

4:21

I found someone who said they would for free

4:24

help me understand this thing, John

4:26

James Santangelo.

4:28

Before we get started, I listened to a couple of your

4:30

episodes. Huh, you're you're

4:32

You're like you're tough. Oh,

4:36

I'm like, you're gonna ask hard questions. I'm giving

4:38

it back to you.

4:39

I can't wait.

4:39

Yeah.

4:41

John has written a book called Discovering NLP.

4:44

Introduction to the Basic Principles of NLP,

4:47

and if I were his copy editor, I wouldn't

4:49

have let him put NLP in the title twice.

4:52

But anyway, luckily John lives

4:54

nearby enough to be here with me in person.

4:57

Perhaps that was my first mistake.

5:00

I started out, probably like most people, looking

5:03

for answers, and

5:06

I started my psychology degree and

5:09

going that direction. I'm like, no, don't want to do that.

5:11

I can't sit in the room for eight hours with people and

5:14

just listen to people complain. I'm not that kind

5:16

of person. I'm the kind of person. If

5:18

we communicate and you tell me what the problem

5:20

is and I have a solution, I'm going to kick you in the

5:22

ass to tell you how to do it. I

5:24

found NLP, after I found Tony

5:27

Robbins, and I got certified. Then I went on to different

5:29

instructors around the country and then

5:32

finished my degree. Just finished my PhD in clinical

5:34

hypnosis. I started

5:36

doing that and I don't need that. I just

5:38

wanted the PhD. After my name looks good on the book.

5:45

Doctor John James Santangelo, PhD.

5:48

Is not a huge fan of traditional talk

5:50

therapy, especially the Freudian kind. Neither

5:53

were the men who invented neuro linguistic

5:55

programming.

5:57

When we come to the conclusion that we don't know what we're

5:59

doing and we go to seek help outside of ourselves,

6:02

we usually go to a therapist, and up

6:04

until the forties, fifties and sixties, that's all

6:06

there was. There was no other type of tradition

6:09

therapy. So these two gentlemen the University

6:11

of Santa Cruz. One was a mathematician,

6:14

is a genius.

6:15

So there were these two guys that you see Santa

6:17

Cruz in the seventies. These two

6:20

guys Their names are John Grinder and

6:22

Richard Bandler. Bandler was studying

6:24

psychology and Grinder was a linguistics

6:27

professor. And I don't know if you know

6:29

what you see Santa Cruz in the seventies as

6:31

shorthand for, but it's like hippie tippy

6:33

thinking, and a lot of it was great.

6:36

Together, they decided to cook up a new

6:38

method of essentially helping people feel

6:40

better and do better and like achieve their

6:42

dreams and stuff without dwelling on the past.

6:46

They wanted action steps, they wanted forward

6:48

thinking, they wanted formulas, they

6:50

wanted cheat codes to happiness and success.

6:54

But back to our discussion, I

6:56

just want to warn you this was one

6:58

of the most frustrating, overwhelming,

7:01

yet utterly mesmerizing

7:03

interviews I've ever done. What

7:06

is neuro linguistic.

7:10

Prog Well, neural linguistic

7:12

program means neuro the mind

7:14

body connection, because we know

7:16

they're connected and we can't work on

7:18

one without the other. Then the linguistic

7:21

part is language, the language

7:23

that we talk to ourselves, like

7:26

you're doing right now, you're asking questions or

7:28

making comments in your head, and how you communicate

7:30

with the language with others outside

7:33

of yourself, and then the programming.

7:36

It is a process. There processes,

7:38

but the programming comes from like a computer,

7:42

a computer is a blank hard drive

7:45

until we install software, which

7:47

is we are programming the computer

7:50

the same way that we program

7:52

our children. Children come into

7:54

the world. We all do with blank hard

7:57

drives. We're surrounded by our primary

7:59

care takers. That's usually your parents

8:01

are one parent, could be your grandparents

8:04

that brought you up if you are brought up in a foster

8:06

care, right, those become your primary

8:08

care caretakers. Then they download

8:11

their software, their beliefs,

8:14

their behaviors, their modalities,

8:16

how they function, how they communicate onto

8:19

our hard drive.

8:20

Okay, so you're thinking of the brain as

8:23

we're all born with a blank hard drive. And

8:26

then tell me where the

8:29

linguistic programming comes

8:31

at, Like where does it get okay,

8:33

good programmed incorrectly.

8:35

Or well, who decides

8:37

that what's correct? Yeah?

8:40

Well I'm a mom, so I.

8:41

Do you as the individual

8:43

decides if they did it right or they did it exactly.

8:46

But when and how

8:49

Usually when you run into a block wall or

8:52

you run into a problem, so we

8:54

don't really figure out until

8:56

sometime later on in life. Usually

8:59

it's probably in your twenties. After

9:02

you get out of school or college, you start having

9:04

to live your life, get a job, maybe you're in

9:06

a committed relation, whatever that is,

9:09

and you figure out this is not working for

9:11

me. So when we get to that stage

9:14

of figuring out this is not

9:16

working, what do most people

9:18

do.

9:19

Go to therapy?

9:20

Some?

9:21

Well most, oh, you asked, most, I

9:24

don't know.

9:24

So when we come to the conclusion of things aren't

9:26

working in our life, we try to fix things

9:29

ourselves, and a lot of the times, how

9:31

could you know what to do when

9:34

all you know is the way that you've been

9:36

doing it. If

9:39

you only have one way of making a cake

9:41

and it completely turns out bad

9:44

every time, and

9:46

somebody says your cake sucks, it tastes

9:48

bad, and you go back in too make another

9:50

cake, but you only know one way to make it,

9:53

how are you expecting to produce something different?

9:56

So that's when most people go to

9:58

traditional therapy.

10:01

The co creators with NLP decided, if

10:04

the problem was bad the first time, talking

10:07

about it over and over and over again isn't

10:09

going to make it better. So we look

10:12

at problems like that and go, how can I solve

10:14

that? And you solve it what we

10:16

call a transderrivational search.

10:18

We go what trans

10:21

derivational search?

10:22

Okay, this is another term those

10:24

guys made up at UC Santa Cruz, which is

10:26

a fancy way of saying remembering

10:29

something a transer.

10:32

We go back into a past. We

10:34

pull up that video of

10:37

how we did it before. We bring it in

10:39

front of us and go, ah, that's how

10:41

I do it, and you do it again and

10:43

then you don't get the result. Your brain goes, well,

10:46

let me go back into the past, see if I can

10:48

try something else. But everything you've tried

10:50

doesn't work. You're still looking

10:52

at the same problem with the solution

10:55

that you've been dealing with the entire time. Okay,

10:57

Now, hopefully if a good therapist

10:59

will come along, we'll allow you to

11:02

come up with the solution. But

11:04

most people don't. That's why they keep going back

11:07

to the same therapists year after you have after

11:09

year.

11:14

How does it work?

11:15

Like? What is?

11:16

Okay? I give you here? It is

11:18

so we study what's called

11:20

modeling, because NLP is about modeling

11:22

success. And then there's a

11:24

strategy or recipe or

11:27

a program that

11:29

they implemented themselves, and usually

11:31

they don't even know what it is. But we

11:34

in NLP can model their success

11:36

by their beliefs, their internal

11:38

language, and the physiological processes

11:41

they went through. If I can map those

11:43

out, then I can take that model

11:45

now that I have and teach it to

11:47

somebody else.

11:48

But like I don't understand, what do you use?

11:50

Okay? So our

11:53

world or map is made up of our five

11:55

senses, okay, okay, there

11:58

are two million bits of information coming

12:00

into our brain every second. Things

12:03

you're not even aware of, the way your feet feeling

12:05

your shoe, the way your fingers it's touching your

12:07

eye, your your headphone,

12:10

the taste in your mouth, the things that you're saying.

12:12

Your internal processes. You're not aware of those

12:14

until I bring them up. So those

12:16

two million bits come in, but

12:18

the brain chunks them down to seven

12:21

plus or minus two.

12:22

How do you know that?

12:23

Because their studies done. Miller Glant on

12:25

nineteen fifty seven did a study

12:27

and he said that we can only

12:30

process seven bits of information

12:32

at a time, the length of

12:34

a phone number. Coincidence, No,

12:38

so.

12:39

This information they didn't as they weren't

12:41

always I know.

12:43

I know, but it's

12:45

funny. How coincidence?

12:46

That's what I said I'm going to jump

12:49

in here and correct John. It was

12:51

actually a nineteen fifty six paper, not nineteen

12:53

fifty seven. It came out of Harvard,

12:56

and there's been some recent scholarship about

12:58

how beautifully written it was, entertaining

13:00

and well received. It begins,

13:04

My problem is that I've been persecuted by an

13:06

integer for seven years.

13:08

This number has followed me around, has

13:10

intruded my most private data, and

13:13

has assaulted me from the pages of our most

13:15

public journals. This number

13:17

assumes a variety of disguises, being

13:19

sometimes a little larger and sometimes a little

13:21

smaller than usual, but never changing

13:24

so much as to be unrecognizable. The

13:27

persistence with which this number plagues

13:29

me is far more than a random accident.

13:32

There is, to quote a famous senator,

13:34

a design behind it, some

13:36

pattern governing its appearances. Either

13:39

there really is something unusual about the number,

13:42

or else I am suffering from delusions

13:44

of persecution. The

13:46

author, George Miller, was so delightful

13:49

in his approach that his conclusion,

13:51

based on dozens of real studies he references

13:53

in the paper, might have haltered further

13:56

progress of study into that area for quite

13:58

some time. In twenty

14:00

fifteen, Nelson Cohen, a

14:02

professor at the University of Missouri, wrote

14:04

a paper called George Miller's Magical Number

14:07

of Immediate Memory in retros Observations

14:11

on the faltering progression of science.

14:13

Can't you tell us what you really think? Nelson? Well,

14:16

he does quote. It was oddly

14:18

followed by rather little research on the numerical

14:21

limit of capacity in working memory.

14:24

Given that the article was written in a humorous tone

14:26

and it was framed around a tongue in cheek premise,

14:29

I argued that it may have inadvertently

14:31

stymied progress on these topics as researchers

14:34

attempted to avoid ridicule. Great,

14:37

moving on anyway.

14:40

Okay, so all this information is coming in.

14:43

You're outside, you're driving your car, whatever it is,

14:45

talking to your daughter. All this information

14:47

is coming in. We distill it down to seven

14:49

pieces, but we have to filter it

14:52

first, and it's filtered through our beliefs,

14:55

our decisions, our past,

14:58

our attitudes, our values,

15:01

and our memories. Yeah,

15:03

what shows up on the other side

15:05

of that is what we call an internal

15:08

representation. Now I'm gonna give you an exactly

15:10

understand. I'm going to give you a word, which

15:12

is you don't know the word. Yet it

15:15

is outside of you. It is gonna be one

15:17

of those pieces of information coming in. You're

15:19

gonna make meaning of it by distilling

15:21

it and filtering it through all your stuff.

15:24

Okay, and then when I point

15:26

to you, I want you to say the first thing that comes

15:28

to mind. Okay, the word is dog

15:31

gross gross. Okay,

15:34

that's funny because not

15:36

that it doesn't matter about Okay.

15:39

So this event comes

15:41

in, we filter it,

15:44

we make some internal representation of what

15:46

it is. It changes our state, our

15:48

state of mind. I'll

15:51

give an example.

15:51

Now I'm thinking about how gross dogs are.

15:53

Yes, so that changes your internal state. Now I'm gonna

15:55

give you a more complex word love

16:00

hate. Who Now,

16:03

I look at what's funny, audience. I

16:05

just saw this look on her face and

16:07

it was an emotional response to hate.

16:11

No, I don't know what it is.

16:13

If you could describe you, all of.

16:15

A sudden, everything got sucked out of you. It

16:17

just went like

16:19

that, like you just did it again. So

16:22

we have this emotional response,

16:25

which you did it again. So the

16:27

event comes in, you filter it,

16:30

you get an emotion. It changes.

16:32

Yeah, you go stand up,

16:35

stand up, say deep breath, think

16:38

of your daughter. What you're wearing today. Good

16:40

to sit down there, you go. I just change

16:43

your state. Okay, So the

16:45

emotion comes in, it changed our state, changed

16:47

our physiology, and we behave

16:51

through that physiology like

16:53

you just did. You went, that's

16:55

a behavior. This is going on

16:58

every nanosecond of our

17:00

experience in life. As

17:02

I communicate lights

17:04

coming in, you're hearing other things,

17:06

you're talking to yourself. This is all events

17:09

into your mind filtered through those responses

17:12

that you had in the past. You get an emotional

17:15

feeling from it. It changes your

17:17

physiology and we behave. That

17:20

is how we do things.

17:21

So okay, So had you not had me stand

17:23

up and think about what the stupid output my kid

17:25

picked out, had you not had me do that,

17:28

you.

17:28

Would have been stuck in that negative state. Really

17:30

yeah, and you can't impy yet,

17:32

No, not grumpy, you were just like ugh. I

17:35

watched you loop through it three times. Now,

17:38

here's what I meant by the state and physiology.

17:41

You're interchangeable. When

17:43

you feel an emotion, it changes your

17:45

body. But also when you change

17:47

your body, it changes your emotion.

17:49

Okay, tell me examples of that.

17:51

What I just had you do, I said,

17:53

stand up, think of your daughter and you still all of a sudden

17:55

started smiling. You threw your shoulders back, your chin

17:57

like you took a deep breath, and all of a sudden

18:00

everything went ah and you got this enlightened

18:02

feeling.

18:04

Yeah.

18:04

So one of the things Tony Robbins talks

18:07

about is when you're in a negative

18:09

state, and there's plenty of words

18:11

that can represent that negative state. Don't

18:14

sit in it, don't dwell in it,

18:16

get up and move. That's

18:19

how easy it is. Do you understand, here's

18:21

the problem with life. This

18:24

is the problem. We're

18:26

not taught how to put ourselves

18:28

in a good mood. We know

18:30

how to put ourselves in a bad mood. Just

18:33

think of something that we don't like, or that

18:35

happened in a past, or something that's coming up that's going

18:37

to give us anxiety. All of a sudden, bam, we get

18:39

the emotion, our physiology changes, and

18:42

we behave It's

18:46

sad. It's sad that we're not taught

18:49

that if you change your body,

18:51

you can change your state.

18:54

Do I have to be doing this all the time? So

18:57

what is the lpet Jesus?

19:00

Because I just want you

19:02

to.

19:03

Let me give you a process.

19:12

One of the most powerful ways to change

19:15

your world is to change

19:17

your internal dialogue. Now,

19:19

I'm only going to give you three examples here,

19:22

Oh my god, thousands all right, because

19:24

they're just all words, right, because every word

19:27

holds power. Right.

19:30

So here's one of the things I teach my students. The

19:33

first three words, which are very easy

19:35

because we use them all the time,

19:38

especially in America. One

19:40

is called the negation. It's the word

19:42

but, okay, And

19:44

I'll give you an example of a negation.

19:47

A negation is like don't, shouldn't,

19:50

can't, instead of using

19:52

the word but, God, Jane, I am

19:54

having so much fun here. But it

19:58

doesn't matter what comes after that, because your mind

20:00

only heard the negation, and that's how we

20:03

normally talk to ourselves. So

20:06

here's the challenge. We are ag

20:09

a nation of negations. And

20:12

you're going to find, now that I said it, if you're aware

20:14

and you truly want to make a change in your life,

20:16

how many times you use the word butt in

20:19

your life. It's horribly bad.

20:21

It's horribly bad, and

20:24

it's a negation. God,

20:26

I just I want to spend so much

20:28

time with you and I love you so much, But it

20:31

doesn't matter what's said after that, And

20:34

that's how we communicate. So

20:36

use a causal linkage.

20:39

It's called a causal linkage, the word

20:42

and it presupposes a

20:44

connection to and of

20:48

I really want to spend time. I love you so

20:50

much. And now

20:53

you're waiting for the next thing because

20:55

it's going to support, because

20:57

it's going to support what I just said, rather than

21:00

negate. Does that make sense? Okay,

21:02

So change the word butt, use the word

21:04

and instead next word the word

21:06

try. Now here's the here's the example.

21:09

So Jane, try to take

21:11

the pin.

21:13

John picks up my pen and holds it in his open

21:15

palm right in front of my face. So I

21:18

grab it.

21:19

No, no, no, no, you're not listening. I didn't say take

21:21

the pen. I said try

21:23

and take the pen. So go ahead, try

21:25

to take the pin. No

21:28

no, no, you're not taking the pen. I

21:30

didn't say not take the pen. I said try

21:33

and take the pin. And that's what people do. This

21:35

think like this, back and forth, back and forth. But you're still

21:37

not taking the pins. That makes sense. You're

21:39

either taking the pen or you're not taking

21:42

the pin. There's no try to take the pin,

21:45

yoda.

21:46

We're all thinking it. What John's

21:48

saying here is basically that words

21:50

matter and have an impact in the physical

21:52

world, So don't use words that limit

21:54

what you're capable of doing. Helping

21:57

people get rid of words without clear meanings,

21:59

words that won't lead directly to the outcome

22:01

they're seeking, is central to

22:04

his coaching practice. I think,

22:07

okay, so what do.

22:08

I do so when we communicate to ourselves

22:10

and other people? Oh yeah, Jane, I'm ah

22:13

man, I'm really going to try to make your party

22:15

on Saturday night. You know you're not you

22:17

know they're not right. So but use

22:19

the word and try. I will

22:21

or won't or I can or I cannot be

22:24

definitive. And the third

22:26

word the word problem. Boy,

22:29

this one's a tough one too. People

22:32

want to just experience their world as

22:34

one big problem.

22:37

And when you when your unconscious mind

22:40

is processing that word, it

22:43

seems insurmountable. Okay,

22:45

change the word to challenge. That was the very

22:48

first one that my instructor said to me, goes, I'm

22:50

going to challenge you to use the

22:52

word challenge from now on instead of problem. I'm

22:54

like, this sucks. I went back the next week because

22:56

it's six weekend course. I'm

22:59

like, that's hard. He goes, yeah, because

23:01

you're fighting your unconscious mind, you're

23:04

programming. Yes.

23:05

John works with business leaders people who

23:07

want to better communicate with their teams or

23:10

colleagues or prospects. And

23:12

he's also a life coach with individuals

23:14

who want to improve their mindset, get

23:16

ahead in life, stop getting in their own way.

23:19

It's been really hard not to call his

23:21

methods and NLP in general,

23:24

how to get what you want by manipulating yourself and

23:26

everyone around you. But I really

23:29

like John, so don't tell him I said

23:31

that. Did

23:33

you just hypnotize me in anyway?

23:36

Not necessarily.

23:39

Say more?

23:39

Well, I'm trying

23:42

to condition you. Whenever

23:45

we're in a positive, emotional,

23:47

wonderful state, do we ever

23:49

look outside of ourselves and go, boy, I wish

23:52

this was even bigger and brighter. No,

23:55

the answer is no, probably because we're inside and we're

23:57

enjoying it. Yeah,

24:00

we just we want to bathe ourselves in those

24:02

emotions. They're so wonderful.

24:04

That's what life is about. That

24:07

is all that life is about.

24:09

That's it.

24:09

Wait, here's a question. Yes, when

24:11

I'm in the most positive, happy thing, I

24:14

literally the first and tell

24:16

me why I do this and what's wrong with

24:18

me.

24:18

There's nothing wrong with you.

24:19

I think kill me

24:21

now.

24:23

I guess that's what You're in a positive state

24:25

and you say kill me now like dine out. Oh yeah,

24:27

because that's what you want to end up there.

24:29

Yeah, I just want to be done, like I don't

24:32

I'm gonna choke.

24:33

You don't use those words. Your

24:35

unconscious mind is always listening,

24:37

and it takes everything literally and personally.

24:40

Oh you know I'm kill myself.

24:42

No, no, I don't want to kill myself, but like when I'm gonna really use

24:45

I think like kill me now, Like.

24:47

No, don't say those Okay.

24:49

Would you tell your daughter to say that?

24:51

No?

24:51

No, then why would you tell yourself and your unconscious

24:53

mind to say that to yourself?

24:54

I don't know. I come myself an idiot thirty

24:56

times a day.

24:57

I do. Your unconscious mind is always

24:59

listening.

25:00

Okay.

25:01

It takes everything literally and personally.

25:08

Before you left, John James Santangelo,

25:10

who used to be a professional magician, had

25:13

one last thing to show me.

25:15

Watch this. Some people actually think this is real,

25:18

like you, I'll be picked this up the

25:21

pen.

25:21

Yeah oh yeah. Now we're sitting at

25:23

a table about three feet away from each other,

25:26

longer than arm's length. On his

25:28

side, there's a bottle of water on a coaster. On

25:31

my side, there's a bottle of water on a coaster.

25:33

And I have my pen and notepad right in front

25:35

of me because I was using them. He

25:38

stood up a bit, reached over and grabbed

25:40

my pen.

25:41

Now you think it's real?

25:42

It is?

25:42

No, it's not what because if I

25:45

take it right and I say, it's not real

25:47

because if it was real, I couldn't do this, or

25:49

I couldn't do this, and I couldn't do this.

25:52

Oh my god.

25:54

So then now the

25:56

pen was in his hands and

25:58

then it disappeared.

26:00

If I said it's not there, it's under here, you'd

26:02

be like wow.

26:03

And then it reappeared under the notebook. I was

26:05

using my pen, my notebook.

26:08

But that's what life is about. Impossibility.

26:11

That was creepy.

26:12

Thanks good word, not

26:15

entertained. That was creepy.

26:16

It was.

26:22

When this interview was over and John

26:24

left, we in the office were in a

26:26

complete daze. You

26:29

know, like when you go see a matinee starring Dwayne

26:31

the Rock Johnson and afterwards you

26:33

walk out of the theater and into the peaceful daylight

26:35

and you're totally disoriented. It

26:38

felt itchy and confusing and intense.

26:41

And maybe that's the whole point. I

26:43

wonder how much that feeling, the feeling that

26:45

something not sure what, but something happened,

26:49

gets confused with NLP

26:51

quote working, you know what I mean, maybe

26:54

a little placebo effect's going on. I

26:57

felt fired up and discombobulated,

27:00

and I'm sure in that state if John were

27:02

like, hey, want to sign up for

27:04

another session, if he was my life coach, I would

27:06

just be like, Yeah, let's get to the bottom of this, dude

27:10

coming up. We talked to some folks who couldn't disagree

27:13

with John Moore. After

27:15

all, there are certain things, say being

27:18

a woman, or impoverished, or gay,

27:20

or a person of color, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. You

27:22

know, systemic bullshit that no amount

27:24

of programming or willpower or effort

27:27

can in our current society be made

27:29

easier by an individual changing

27:31

their mindset. Believe me, I've

27:33

tried. That's next time on

27:35

the dream.

27:38

Meditating isn't going to help you deal with the fact

27:40

in order to feed your children means you have to

27:42

do two or three jobs or take nightshift

27:45

jobs. It's like she put on a Blazer and she's

27:47

an expert. They have been sold the American

27:50

Dream. A lot

27:52

of us have been sold the American Dream.

27:58

The Dream is written, hosted, and executive

28:01

produced by me Jane Marie. Our

28:03

producer is Mike Richter, with help from Nancy

28:05

Golumbiski and Joy Sandford. Our

28:08

editor is Peter Klown. The Dream

28:10

is a co production of Little Everywhere in Pushkin

28:12

Industries. If

28:22

you love this show, consider subscribing to Pushkin

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