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This is The Dream Team Tapes, a

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Diversion Podcasts original series

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in association with I Heart Radio.

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This is the story of the United States Olympic basketball

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team that won gold in Barcelona in

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known worldwide as the Dream

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Team.

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Millions of Americans own a personal

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computer. If you're one of them, you can

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now glimpse the future with nothing more than a modem,

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a phone line, and a few dollars a month

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mark with the A and then the ring around

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it. At see, that's what I said, um

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Case said she thought it was about yeah,

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but I've never heard it. I've never heard it

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said, but never heard

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it said. And then it sounded stupid what I said at

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violence at NBC. So

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why did I choose to open episode

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three of The Dream Team Tapes by

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making fun of Briant Gumble, Katie Couric,

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and Elizabeth Fargas, all

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of whom are infinitely more famous than I

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onsode of

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the Today Show. Beyond the fact,

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of course that it's a lot of fun. Now,

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let me note that the first time I had a flip phone,

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I got thirty seven calls before I

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found out you had to actually flip the

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phone open to answer them.

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So maybe I'm not the guy to be making fun

1:20

here, But I have a point. Twenty

1:22

eight years after the Dream Team began to be

1:24

put together, one of my most

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vivid memories was how, for want of a

1:29

better word, quietly it all

1:31

came together. That's the

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only description I would give to the manner in which

1:35

the news was received that pros

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could now play in the Olympics. Why

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was that? Well, we must resort to

1:42

the obvious here first, the absence

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of social media the Bryant

1:47

Katie Elizabeth video. Remember

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was even a few years after the news

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of the Dream Team, there was zero social

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media and only daily newspapers

1:56

and magazines like Sports Illustrated.

1:59

The Olympic news is not big news. Had

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something similar happened today, the

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Internet would have blown up within an hour. Every

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hoops fan in America with a keyboard would

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have had his or her dream team selected.

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So in December, now this is nine

2:14

months before the team would be announced,

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I had an idea that why don't I pick my starting

2:20

five if these guys were

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to play in the Olympics. It was all presented

2:25

as a hypothetical. We

2:27

could take a photo at the All Star Game in Charlotte

2:29

in February put it on the cover of

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Sports Illustrated, and that would

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save me writing about the All Star

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Game, about which there was usually nothing to write

2:38

except how bad the defense is and

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ladies and gentlemen. Honestly, that was the beginning

2:43

of the real interest in the Dream Team,

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and in fact, i'll tell you later how

2:48

it got its name. But

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something else was going on in relative secret

2:53

at that time, the decision

2:55

about who was going to coach these guys.

2:58

Here's Chuck Daily. I thought,

3:00

you know, maybe I was a little far along in

3:02

my career and I thought,

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you know, there's so many qualified people out there

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that I really didn't

3:09

give it a lot of thought. Someone mentioned

3:11

it to me and I said, oh, I don't know that I

3:13

would fit into that category

3:16

or not. But I said, nice, you know

3:18

that people are mentioning my name and Matt

3:20

Dobeck part of just your background of

3:22

being optimistic. She never really enjoyed

3:24

the stuff that the accomptant. You know, even

3:26

lot with that because you're so worried about what I

3:28

said, Joe, I get a little sad when I hear

3:31

those voices for both men are

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gone now. The first voice

3:35

belonged to Chuck Daily, who died of cancer

3:37

in two thousand nine. Our

3:39

interview is from Barcelona, in the middle

3:41

of the Olympics. The

3:44

other voice is Matt Dobek, who

3:46

was the pistons long time public relations

3:48

man. Matt took his own

3:50

life a little over a year after Chuck

3:52

died. I'm not suggesting

3:54

the events were connected, but I'm

3:56

not suggesting they weren't connected either.

4:00

See Chuck and Matt were as close as any coach

4:02

and PR man could ever be. I'm

4:04

not as familiar with those relationships

4:07

in other sports, but in pro basketball

4:10

the relationship between the coach and the

4:12

PR person is extremely important

4:14

to the health of the team. See

4:16

the coaches like the CEO of a large corporation,

4:20

except that he's responsible to the media

4:22

and fans on a daily basis. The

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PR person is the one charged

4:28

with running interference, trying to

4:30

decide when the coach should talk, when he should

4:32

stay quiet, and when he should

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well, if not outright, lie then

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obfuscate. So

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on Valentine's Day, Charles

4:42

Jerome Daily was named coach of the Dream

4:45

Team. In keeping with that quiet

4:47

theme I had talked about, nobody paid all that

4:49

much attention and there was very

4:51

little ceremony attached to the announcement.

4:54

I wouldn't say Chuck was a

4:56

unanimous choice, but he was certainly a popular

4:59

one. Pat Riley and Don Nelson

5:01

seemed the other possible choices, but in

5:04

their own way, they had something against them.

5:07

Nelly was a little squirrelly. You

5:09

never knew what he was gonna say or what he was gonna

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do. For that matter, pat was a great

5:13

coach, but he was way way

5:16

into that my way or the highway

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thing. By that time, the powers

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that be knew that they needed a diplomat

5:23

as well as a great coach, somebody

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who wouldn't go nuclear with all

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the extracurricular demands

5:30

that would come with coaching the Dream Team.

5:33

Plus there was this from Charles Barkley,

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Chuck coach the bad boy Pistons. Charles

5:38

said, on more than one occasion, you coach

5:41

those assholes, you can coach anybody.

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Chuck never seemed to take himself too seriously.

5:47

It was a great Boston writer, Bob Ryan, who

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hung the sobriquet the Prince

5:51

of Pessimism on Chuck because

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he would always find the gloomy side to anything,

5:56

but at the same time a wry

5:58

smile was never far from his face. You

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know me any money, he used to say as he gripped

6:03

your hand in a greeting. And when Chuck

6:06

would give out a cell phone, he ended up

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by saying the first six numbers and then

6:10

Rodman Sally. That's because

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the final four numbers were ten and

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twenty two, the jersey

6:17

numbers of Dennis Rodman and John

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Sally. Now,

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when Chuck's decision was announced on that Valentine's

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Day in one, you have to

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understand what was going on in the NBA that

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season. Daly's Pistons,

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the bad Boys as everyone called them, or

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the a holes as Charles called them,

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were the two time defending champions,

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having disposed of the Lakers in nine

6:40

and the Trailblazers

6:42

in but their

6:44

meter had clearly expired. They

6:47

were old and injured, and almost

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everyone figured correctly as it turned

6:51

out, that Jordan's and Pippin's

6:53

bulls would overtake them.

6:56

But Daly was still the man the committee

6:58

wanted, and in retrospect, it's

7:00

hard to imagine the Dream Team without Chuck.

7:03

One of my regrets is that he died in

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two thousand nine before I got

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a chance to interview him. Chuck

7:09

was happy to get the job, of course, but right

7:12

away he knew he was in a tough position.

7:15

Matt Dobek knew it right away too,

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because he told me. Though

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no players had been selected for the team,

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Chuck knew in his heart of hearts that selling

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his captain, Isaiah Thomas to the committee

7:27

would be difficult because of some of

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the poisonous relationships that Isaiah

7:31

had built up over the years. Bill

7:34

lamb, Or, Isaiah's teammate and best friend,

7:37

pointed out correctly that had

7:40

the Dream Team decisions been made a

7:42

year or two earlier, when the Pistons

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were the kings of the NBA, it

7:46

would have been harder to keep Isaiah

7:49

off of it. You have to remember that Isaiah

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stirred up a lot of this stuff himself,

7:55

including the time he agreed with Dennis Rodman

7:58

after Robin made that much remembered statement

8:00

that Larry Bird was overrated.

8:03

But let's unpack that a little bit. It

8:07

occurred right after Isaiah had made

8:10

a bone headed pass that led to a bird

8:12

steel that led to a bird pass that

8:14

led to a Dennis Johnson basket that

8:17

eventually led to the Celtics beating the

8:19

Pistons and making the finals.

8:21

In seven, Isaiah

8:23

was in an overheated Boston Garden visitors

8:26

locker room, which is exactly

8:28

how the Celtics used to keep the visitor's

8:31

locker room. And what Isaiah

8:33

actually said was, Larry

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Bird is an exceptional talent, but

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I have to agree with Dennis. If

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he was black, he'd be just another

8:42

good guy. Now that's

8:45

a little different than just outright dissing Bird.

8:47

And it was a theme that Isaiah and

8:50

other black players as well used to say,

8:52

and that was how much more attention

8:55

great or outstanding white players

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got than their black counterparts.

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Isaiah just happened to pick the wrong guy

9:02

to say it about. At any rate,

9:04

it's an absolute certainty that in today's

9:07

Twitter climate, Isaiah would have gotten

9:09

a lot more support. At

9:11

the very least, it would have been a viral

9:14

blow up for a few hours. So

9:17

no matter what you heard, there was

9:19

never much of a chance for Isaiah thomas

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to make the Dream Team.

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For this reason, mainly, Michael

9:26

Jordan's did not want

9:29

him. I wrote that back

9:32

because a source close to the situation,

9:34

no not Jordan himself, told

9:37

me that was the case. But

9:39

Jordan's reaction to the question did

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you keep Isaiah off the team

9:44

was either angry no, dismissive

9:47

no Isaiah questions please, or coy

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hey, I didn't pick the team.

9:52

So when I went to interview Jordan for the Dream Team

9:55

book in two thousand eleven, I

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wondered how I would nudge conversation

9:59

over to Isaiah Thomas. But against

10:02

all odds, Jordan went there

10:04

himself suddenly and without

10:06

warning, and nickols me to ask me

10:08

the book Robin calls, who are

10:11

will to play Isaiah Thomas?

10:14

Here's here? He said. You know what chucked

10:16

asia going to be if

10:19

you didn't hear he said, I don't

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want to play if Isaiah Thomas

10:24

is on the team. Now much

10:26

has been made is still being made about

10:28

how one player should not have had the power

10:31

to keep another off the team, and further how

10:34

USA basketball officials, the late David

10:36

Stern, Dave Gavitt, whoever, should

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not have listened to one man and

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they should have said, I you, Michael,

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we're taking Isaiah, to

10:46

which I always say police.

10:49

In the year of Our Lord, there

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was no one who was going to pick Isaiah

10:54

Thomas over Michael Jordan's

10:56

It's that simple. Plus, the case

10:59

could be made that John stocked him by that point,

11:01

was as good as Isaiah Thomas. Personally,

11:04

I would not make that argument. At their

11:06

best, Isaiah was better than John. But

11:08

when you factor in everything, including

11:10

the Jordan factor and team chemistry,

11:14

that doesn't necessarily add up to

11:16

Isaiah having a deserving place

11:19

on the team.

11:30

A final note on the Isaiah story. When

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the team was finally selected and announced

11:35

in September, Magic

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Johnson released the following statement, I

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sincerely hope the selection committee awards one

11:43

of the final two remaining roster positions

11:45

to Isaiah. I say

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this not because Isaiah as my friend, but

11:50

because I believe he will assist the team

11:52

in winning the gold medal. Oh

11:54

my god, what a bunch of crap. As it evolved

11:57

years later, Magic and Isaiah were

11:59

already on the outs. Magic

12:01

didn't want Isaiah on the team either, and

12:04

he could have been considered Isaiah's greatest

12:06

ally. Now, by

12:08

the time Chuck Daly was announced as the coach,

12:11

several players had already expressed interest

12:13

in playing in Barcelona, specifically

12:16

Malone Barkley, Ewing

12:18

and Magic. But heartening back

12:21

to the beginning of the podcast. There

12:23

hadn't been much buzz about it, so

12:26

many people just did not think it was going

12:28

to happen after fifty years

12:30

of amateur players representing our country.

12:34

So I had the idea to do this story,

12:36

this kind of hypothetical story about

12:38

what the team might look like. And I

12:40

started with Magic and he said,

12:43

no way, I'm doing this if you're not picking

12:46

Larry. I said, well, I would pick

12:48

Larry. I told Magic, but I don't think he's

12:50

going to play, which was the truth. You

12:53

gotta check with the Magic said, and

12:55

I did. And this is Bird years

12:57

later talking about it. One

13:00

thing I didn't want to do is go over there

13:02

and not go to at all and take

13:04

away the chance with somebody else to have.

13:08

Bird's back was hurting, and he was legitimately

13:11

concerned that he was too old to go to

13:13

Barcelona. He was just

13:15

trying to get through the season and coax

13:17

the Celtics to another finals, which

13:20

even he knew was not going to happen.

13:23

So after I reported back to Magic,

13:26

he said, okay, I'm in. I

13:28

eventually rounded up Jordan's. He

13:31

took some convincing, of course, because he

13:33

was Jordan's and he still hadn't officially

13:35

committed to the team, and I also

13:37

rounded up Patrick Ewing, Kr Malone

13:40

and Charles Barkley. They

13:42

were my choice for a starting lineup as

13:44

long as Bird said he was not playing. Now,

13:47

why you Ing over David Robinson? Tell

13:50

you the truth, I really don't know. To this day, I'm

13:53

not sure who I would take in his prime. Perhaps

13:56

Robinson for his all around athleticism,

13:59

but there was something about Ewing's indomitable

14:02

spirit. Anyway,

14:04

this took a lot of arranging and a lot of secret

14:07

maneuvering, and when we tried to move

14:09

the five guys into a separate room

14:11

to take a shot during a break in the All

14:13

Star hullabaloo, all

14:16

hell broke. Loose fans were

14:18

banging on the door. After we somehow

14:20

managed to get the guys in there. I

14:22

had arranged for my two sons to be in the room

14:25

to hand out the swag bags to the players,

14:28

and they were wide eyed astonished the

14:30

crush of people trying to get into

14:32

the room. My sons, by

14:34

the way, are both over forty now and they

14:36

still have the polaroids. You know the

14:38

definition of a swag bag. By the way,

14:41

it's good he's given to people who are so

14:43

rich that they should be the ones handing

14:45

out the swag bags. That's

14:47

certainly what Christopher thought on The Sopranos

14:50

when he robs learned Bacall. That's

14:52

the Lauren Bacall to grab her swag

14:55

bag as Lauren lets loose with

14:57

a barrage of f bombs. Great

14:59

Sopranos omen Anyway, right

15:01

before we're ready to take the photo into

15:03

the room, bursts Russ Grannick, who

15:06

was the Deputy Commissioner of the NBA at

15:08

the time, David Stearn's right hand man, and

15:10

I mean he was pissed.

15:13

We haven't cleared this. We haven't cleared this.

15:15

He kept yelling, which I guess

15:18

was technically true, meaning that we hadn't

15:20

cleared it with the NBA. We

15:22

finally talked Russ off the ledge and took

15:24

the photo. Russ is, by the way, one

15:26

of the great guys in NBA history.

15:29

When the cover photo came out, it wasn't

15:32

a way kind of hokey, but

15:34

the five stars were holding replicas

15:36

of the Olympic rings and the power

15:38

them together, and it

15:41

just released some kind of energy.

15:43

I wrote the story that weekend and I began

15:45

it this way. It's

15:47

a red, white and blue dream. The

15:50

five players who graced this week's cover

15:52

playing together determined to restore

15:54

America's lost basketball dignity

15:57

in the Olympic Games in bars

16:00

Lona. What's the chances

16:02

of this dream coming true? Not

16:04

bad? Not bad at all? And

16:07

then there was just the cover line that

16:09

said dream Team.

16:11

From that moment on, everything

16:14

changed. Dream Teams started

16:16

to become a thing. There

16:18

began to be stories written about it. Who's

16:21

going to be on the Dream Team? Who's

16:23

not a dream teamer? Okay,

16:25

Magic's on board, Patrick's excited, The Mailman's

16:28

all in. Chris Mullen, I

16:30

didn't even think about he said, I'm in. Scottie

16:33

Pippen surprised at the nod, but put

16:35

me down. We had a name.

16:38

It seemed like reality. The dream

16:40

Team. Now, let's consider

16:42

the inclusion of one Charles Wade

16:45

Barkley. At the end of episode

16:47

two, I played you a clip of Charles

16:49

talking about how he was one of the first five

16:51

players picked because he had been on

16:53

the cover of Sports Illustrated. Uh

16:56

not the case. Charles was no

16:59

lock for a variety of reasons,

17:01

this being one of them. But in March, Barkley

17:05

did something truly outrageous, even for him.

17:07

Barkley's Sixers were playing the New Jersey Nets

17:09

in a hard fought regular season game. A

17:11

Nets fan in the front row had allegedly

17:13

been heckling him all night, and eventually

17:15

Barkley snapped in the fourth quarter

17:18

during a stop and play. Barkley spit in

17:20

the fans general direction, only it hit

17:22

a little girl instead. Now a couple of

17:24

things here. First, there was no allegedly

17:26

about Charles being heckled. He was being heckled,

17:29

fat ass and all that. I don't

17:31

know if there was a racial component, but of

17:33

course he shouldn't have snapped, and of course

17:35

he didn't mean to spit on the young girl,

17:38

whose name was Lauren Rose and who Charles

17:40

later spoke to and apologize.

17:42

But combined with other incidents a bar

17:45

room brawler too, and on court fight

17:47

or two, a weapon's charge for

17:49

carrying an unlicensed handgun, a

17:51

few dozen on politic comments, and

17:53

well, Charles, despite

17:56

what he said in episode two about being one

17:58

of the first five pick was automatic

18:00

for the Dream Team, and certainly

18:03

David Stern, the Commissioner,

18:06

was ambivalent about his inclusion. The

18:08

basketball of people are always metrified

18:10

you can't get enough good players. Yeah,

18:13

if they had the big twenty players,

18:15

right, Yeah, it's really reluctant.

18:17

You know, you never know what he's gonna say because

18:19

he doesn't know what because he

18:23

really he's really you know, stepped

18:26

over the line a couple of times,

18:28

but you know he's Charles. So why did

18:30

Charles make the team? Two reasons? Really. Rod

18:33

Thorne, who at that time was an executive with

18:35

the league, was the one charge with calling

18:37

Charles, and he was instantly impressed

18:40

by how much Barkley wanted to play.

18:43

But this is the key factor. Thorne, a

18:45

former general manager who had drafted

18:47

Jordan's

18:49

and was very much an important man in the process

18:52

of gathering players, wanted his

18:54

talent. Remember what David Stern

18:56

said, while the people more preoccupied

18:59

with image, never think you have enough boy

19:01

scouts basketball people, which

19:03

Rod Thorne was, never think you

19:06

have enough talent. Charles was clearly

19:08

not a boy scout, but talent one out

19:11

and Charles Barkley was a dream teamer. Now,

19:25

so far as need goes, the

19:27

team probably did not need Larry

19:29

Bird. He was thirty five

19:32

and it was an old thirty five. His

19:35

back was not just hurting, it was killing

19:37

him. As you heard from his voice at

19:39

the beginning of the episode, Bird

19:41

would describe times when he would

19:43

drive his car only a mile before he

19:45

had to stop and get out stretches

19:48

back. This resonates

19:50

with me, as it does with many others. On

19:52

a couple of occasions, I visited Bird's miracle

19:54

man physiotherapist Dan Direct,

19:57

and over long stretches of the season,

20:00

Direct was Bird's most constant companion.

20:03

But Bird, after many haranguing phone calls

20:05

from Magic and a couple of conversations with Dave

20:07

Gabbett, eventually signed on.

20:10

Remember that he says it was just to hang out with

20:12

Gavitt, but there was more to it

20:14

than that. One of the kids. My

20:16

dad was big on the Olympics, and

20:19

uh it adn't matter of his traffic field,

20:21

you know, high jug whatever. His big

20:23

thing was always a national anthem eternal

20:25

of TV for o Limpics. The year the national anthem,

20:28

he turned and smile saying us one

20:30

goal. I always remember that and I

20:32

always stopped bought that would be as

20:34

a kid. I never dreamed I ever

20:36

to do it. But the most exciting

20:38

thing for me was when we got our medals when he played

20:40

the Stars, because I remember back

20:43

in his mind when he heard the anthem plan

20:45

it was a gold medal. He was happy. I was

20:47

The Bird was just starting to become a college

20:49

player at Indiana State in nineteen

20:51

seventy six when the US team

20:53

won gold in Montreal. He

20:56

was already a professional in the nineteen eighties.

20:59

He had never in his Olympic chance, and Bird,

21:02

despite his hesitation about his back,

21:04

wanted in on the national team.

21:07

He remembered those Knights have watched the Olympics

21:09

with his dad. He wanted to hear the

21:11

national anthem from the podium,

21:14

and he wanted to remember his father, that dark

21:16

soul who took his own life when

21:18

Larry was a teenager. So

21:21

Bird was in and Magic was in, and

21:23

together they constituted the

21:25

most important ceremonial picks

21:28

of the Dream Team. That was one

21:30

of the great luxuries of the Dream Team by the way it

21:32

could afford ceremonial picks. It

21:34

needed ceremonial picks, and Magic and Bird

21:37

are the two best ceremonial players in

21:40

history. So it's getting near the time

21:42

in late summer to announce

21:44

the Dream Team and the following

21:47

are on board. Magic

21:49

John stocked in his guards, Barkley,

21:51

Malone, Mullen and Bird as forwards,

21:54

Ewing and David Robinson as centers, Scottie

21:57

Pippen as the classic swingman, and

22:00

finally, Michael Jordan's, after

22:02

months of coyness, said he was in. That's

22:04

ten. Now. USA Basketball

22:06

had decided to leave two spots to be announced

22:09

a couple of months before the Olympics. It

22:12

was a really stupid decision,

22:15

determined partly because there was still some

22:17

discussion about how many college

22:19

players were to be added to the team.

22:21

Increasingly, though, it had

22:23

become clear that when players like James Worthy

22:26

and Dominique Wilkins didn't even come close

22:28

to making the team that really no

22:31

college players should be on the team.

22:34

So now we're gonna jump ahead about

22:36

eight months for the anticlimactic

22:38

announcement that Clyde Drexeler was

22:41

added to the Dream Team.

22:43

Any lingering support for Isaiah Thomas

22:45

had all but dissipated, and Clyde

22:48

deserved the nod. And I've always

22:50

believed that a big part of the reason that

22:53

Clyde made those comments about Jordan's

22:55

that you heard in an earlier episode. It

22:57

was because he was rightly piste off that

23:00

he had been added late. Finally,

23:03

they decided to add one college

23:05

kid. There's the pastor right there, what's

23:09

it up now?

23:11

Shaquille O'Neal would be a better pro than

23:13

Christian Lightner. Shaquille O'Neal

23:15

would be more fun, a foil for

23:18

the barbs of Barkley, Jordan's

23:20

and Bird. But the pick

23:22

was clearly Christian Lightner, and Rod

23:24

Thorne tells why the people

23:26

were adamant

23:29

that it would be lateener because of good

23:31

things he had done for USA

23:33

basketball. He had shocked the two

23:35

deaths they came down to UH

23:38

and he had played on teams

23:41

and been very property with them

23:43

and had had a great year. So later

23:45

was added first body of work, and he probably

23:47

deserved to be there, even

23:49

if he did sometimes act like a dick. So

23:52

let's jump back in time again to the fall of

23:56

and the televised show that announced the

23:58

first ten members of the Dream Team.

24:02

What had once seemed like a far off dream

24:04

just a couple of years earlier, was

24:06

now moving toward reality.

24:09

The Dream Team was no longer a dream

24:12

man. We couldn't wait. Preseason

24:15

started the Los Angeles Lakers

24:17

headed for Paris and the fourth Annuel

24:20

McDonald's Open. I covered

24:22

the event, and I remember it was gloomy in Paris,

24:24

and Magic Johnson, for one, wasn't real

24:27

happy. Players, you see, get

24:29

far less out of these cultural

24:31

exchanges than the league gets out

24:34

of the pr gains by sending

24:36

them to far away places. But gamely,

24:39

because he was Magic, he did all

24:41

the requisite press conferences and smiled

24:43

that magic smile. He came

24:45

back from France, got a mandatory

24:48

physical because of a new insurance policy

24:50

he had taken out, and one afternoon,

24:53

as he prepared for a preseason game

24:55

in Utah, his doctor called

24:57

and told him to fly back to Los Angeles

24:59

a meet it ly, and on

25:01

November Magic

25:04

Johnson, who by most accounts would

25:06

be captaining the Dream Team, held

25:08

a news conference that shocked the world. We'll

25:11

talk about that and the summer

25:14

of nine two when the Dream Team came together

25:16

on the next episode. Thanks for

25:18

listening. If

25:27

you enjoyed The Dream Team Tapes, please

25:29

follow, rate, and review wherever

25:31

you get your podcasts. The

25:34

Dream Team Tapes is written and hosted

25:36

by Jack McCallum. Executive

25:39

producers Mark Francis and

25:41

Scott Waxman, executive

25:43

producer for I Heart Media, is shown

25:45

to tone. The Dream

25:48

Team Tapes is a Diversion Podcasts

25:50

original series in association

25:52

with I heart Radio. For

25:55

more podcasts from my heart Radio,

25:57

visit the I heart Radio app, Apple

26:00

Podcasts, or wherever you

26:02

listen to your favorite shows. H