0:03

This is the English Heritage podcast.

0:09

Hello,

0:09

and thank you for joining us for this

0:11

podcast into England's past. I'm

0:13

Charles Rhoe. You can catch new episodes

0:16

every Thursday or subscribe to

0:18

ensure you get them all. Now

0:20

as the nation honors members of the armed forces

0:23

who died in the line of duty on remembrance

0:25

day, on the eleventh of November. We're

0:27

about to discover the stories of six of

0:30

London's finest first world war memorials.

0:33

each of which is cared for by English

0:35

heritage. You can see them all for

0:37

yourself by following our trail, starting

0:39

from the center half on Whitehall and

0:42

ending at the Royal Artillery Memorial

0:44

at Hyde Park Corner. Together,

0:47

all six memorials reflect the impact

0:49

of the Great War. while their fascinating

0:52

stories reveal different approaches to

0:54

commemorating the dead. Joining

0:56

me to guide us through their stories and

0:59

their symbolism are our two guests

1:02

for today. Hello. I'm

1:04

Jeremy Ashby, and I'm the head properties

1:06

curator at Ingerheritage. Hello.

1:09

I'm Roger Bowdler. I used to

1:11

work at English Heritage for many, many years.

1:13

Now, I work at a firm called Montague Evans

1:16

as a planning consultant. but

1:18

I'm very interested in matters of commemoration

1:20

and have been involved in quite a few charities

1:23

about such things. I'd

1:24

like to start with

1:25

the memorial that represents everyone

1:28

lost to the Great War. This

1:30

was covered in our own podcast episode

1:32

back in episode fifteen, in

1:34

fact. And this is the senator. Jeremy,

1:37

could you tell us where the center half is in

1:39

London? Certainly. It's very simple.

1:42

The center half is right in the middle

1:44

of a very broad street called

1:46

Whitehall. That street, for

1:48

anyone who's got some idea of the geography

1:50

of London, is the street that links Trafalgar

1:53

Square at its northern end. with

1:55

parliament square, the Palace of Westminster

1:57

and Westminster Abbey at its southern end,

1:59

and it's surrounded by the

2:02

great buildings of where the civil

2:04

service is basically run for all the great departments

2:07

of state are there and the Senate have is

2:09

right in the heart of all of that.

2:11

Nearest tube stop for people who want

2:13

to go and visit it. Nearest tube

2:15

stop would be Westminster at its southern

2:17

end or Charing Cross at

2:19

its northern end and it's probably something like

2:21

five minutes walk from either of them. Yes.

2:23

And I think maybe even Piccadilly circus, you could

2:26

do a bit of walk down from there as well.

2:29

So what does the genotaph mean

2:31

as a word, Roger? The genotaph

2:34

comes from two Greek words and literally

2:36

it means empty tomb. and

2:38

that takes you straight to the heart

2:40

of what it's all about. It's a marker

2:43

for the hundreds of thousands of dead,

2:45

a million dead. from Britain

2:47

and the Empire who lost their lives

2:49

in the first world war. Can you tell

2:52

us who commissioned it then? commissioned

2:54

in ninety nine teen by

2:57

the government as part of the

2:59

peace parade celebrating the

3:01

treaty of versailles and it

3:03

marked a stopping point in this

3:05

triumphant procession of victory,

3:08

at which point the procession

3:10

would pause and pay their respects.

3:13

to their dead comrades. So it

3:15

originally, it was just part of a procession,

3:18

but it very quickly gains enormous

3:21

magnetic appeal to

3:23

the hundreds of thousands of people in Britain

3:25

who had lost people in the war. The

3:28

creator was an architect named

3:30

Edwin Lutyens. Is that correct?

3:33

It absolutely is. Lutyens

3:36

is up there with Christopher Wren

3:38

and Vambra

3:40

John Stone as one

3:42

of the greatest architects that Britain

3:44

has ever seen. He begins

3:46

as an arts and crafts architect,

3:49

but like lots of people in Zafed Wardian

3:51

times, he became increasingly interested and classical

3:53

architecture. And what we've got

3:55

is this extraordinary tribute to

3:57

the architecture of ancient Athens

3:59

turned into a modern memorial.

4:02

How does this appear for someone who's

4:04

perhaps an international listener who

4:06

hasn't been to London? How do you describe

4:09

this structure? Well, first of all,

4:11

I hope they do come to visit it. They'd

4:13

be most welcome. The structure

4:15

is like a tall pedestal. It's

4:18

like an upright rectangular shaft

4:21

that gets slightly narrower

4:23

at the top. It's quite an austere

4:25

structure. There's no sculpture on

4:27

it. It has a couple of carved

4:29

wreath of coral leaves,

4:32

which are ancient tributes to fallen

4:34

warriors. But at the top,

4:36

you have another of these wreath lying

4:38

on top of what's essentially

4:40

the empty tomb or sarcophagus.

4:44

That's another word from ancient Greece,

4:46

which literally means flesh eater,

4:48

so it was a receptacle in which

4:50

you'd place a dead body. So

4:52

imagine a pedestal supporting

4:54

this coffin like box

4:56

at the top and that's what you've got.

4:59

It's also proudly displays

5:02

the flags of Britain's armed

5:04

forces. So we have the three

5:06

flags of the Royal

5:08

Air Force, the army, the

5:10

navy, and the merchant navy.

5:13

Are these carved in or are

5:15

they sort of coming out in a of three

5:17

d relief effect. They're

5:19

real flags, and they

5:22

are placed on on the side

5:24

of the monument. just as

5:26

people place poppies, poppies, poppies, most

5:29

famously on remembrance Sunday when

5:31

the nation and the commonwealth pay

5:33

their tributes. led by the monarch.

5:35

So there's flags. There's real flags.

5:38

There's a real pop of color to

5:40

what is, as you say, an austere

5:42

gray kind of monument. That's

5:45

absolutely right and you can

5:47

see those as the living embodiment

5:49

of the armed forces placed

5:51

against this enduring stone monument,

5:54

which is really there for eternity

5:56

to make people remember the shortness

5:58

of those lives cut

5:59

off. We have

6:00

some words inscribed into the

6:03

structure as well, don't we to help people

6:05

remember? What do they say? Yeah.

6:07

There are words and there are

6:09

Roman letters. that symbolized the

6:12

years of the two world wars. At

6:14

the bottom, on on either end, in

6:16

the words, the glorious dead. which

6:18

are said to have been composed by

6:20

Lord George. And

6:23

that's what they are, the glorious dead.

6:25

So the monument is playing homage

6:28

to the military prowess of these

6:30

million lost people, but the

6:32

word dead is unmistakable.

6:34

This is about lives that

6:36

have been prematurely cut

6:39

off. And the the roman

6:41

numerals at the top refer to the

6:43

the years. in which the first and

6:45

second wellbores were waged. The

6:47

lettering is also quite Roman esque, I think, isn't it?

6:49

It's sort of almost like a times new Roman

6:51

type font or a trajan type font

6:53

if if any graphic designers listening

6:55

who might know those. And it's also in

6:57

capitals, the writing. Yeah. It's very

6:59

much a a Roman inscription and

7:01

exquisitely done. And Lloyd George,

7:03

of course, the prime minister who signed

7:06

the treaty of Versailles. He said that

7:08

this began as the peace day

7:10

parade memorial. Is that

7:12

right? For nineteen nineteen. That's

7:14

right. It was the London peace celebrations.

7:17

July the nineteenth nineteen nineteen.

7:21

So imagine a parade of of

7:23

triumphant soldiers, sailors, airmen,

7:25

civilians just relieved it

7:27

was all over, though as we know,

7:30

fighting did continue in various places

7:32

into nineteen twenty and beyond. So,

7:35

yeah, it marked a point on a parade of

7:37

celebration. This temporary

7:39

structure, what was it made out of initially?

7:41

Well, that was mocked up in a hurry and

7:43

it was sort of wooden

7:46

timber structure, covered in plaster

7:48

impregnated cloth that was then painted

7:50

to look like stone. So rather theatrical

7:53

in its nature. Was

7:55

this structure always going to be permanent?

7:57

Or did it just start off as this temporary

7:59

structure?

7:59

And then there was this desire to have

8:02

something permanent in whitehall there?

8:04

just as you say, it began

8:07

as a temporary item. It was

8:09

to do with the parade. So

8:11

therefore, the parade then to be taken down.

8:13

and yet the public really responded

8:15

to it. They had a

8:18

locust. They had a place. in

8:21

which they could lay down tributes to

8:23

remember the fallen of their

8:25

families. That's what it'd be

8:27

missing. Local warmer royals were

8:29

starting to be erected, but the nation

8:31

to have a place at which the normative

8:34

sacrifice could be marked. That's

8:36

what hadn't been considered before,

8:38

and Lutyens' temporary structure

8:40

delivers just that. Why do you

8:42

think it's so admired today? suppose

8:45

it has now become this focal

8:47

point for the country as you say and

8:49

for for any other countries that were

8:51

involved in the war. What's your

8:53

take on why it's such an important

8:56

structure? Scholars and

8:58

critics, people like Gavin's

9:00

Stamp, have assigned enormous importance.

9:02

to this structure. One of the key

9:05

reasons they ascribe for its

9:07

enduring success as a memorial

9:09

is its emptiness. It

9:12

doesn't give you sculpted a

9:14

gender of trampolism. You can

9:16

read it in various ways. It's

9:18

essentially a vessel, a receptacle.

9:21

into which the grieving person can place

9:23

their own feelings. So

9:25

it's austerity, touched

9:27

with this ancient Greek

9:29

inflection. is what gives it's

9:31

its power. It's not a place

9:33

where you're told what to think. It's a place

9:35

where you can come and do your

9:37

thinking.

9:38

placed against the context of

9:41

national remembrance and the nation's

9:43

gratitude to the sacrifices

9:45

made. Is it

9:46

easy to visit Jeremy? You have

9:48

to cross a road, don't you? And it's quite a

9:50

busy road. I I actually would

9:52

strongly advise you not to cross the road.

9:54

because actually Whitehall can be actually quite dangerous. And

9:56

my feeling about the Senate Office

9:58

is is is actually best admired,

10:01

you know, to take your time over

10:03

it, to let it speak to you because exactly

10:05

as Roger said, it's it's a

10:07

very, very plain structure and

10:09

actually appreciating it. you take

10:11

some time and some you really

10:14

need to actually, you know, gather your thoughts

10:16

for it. So I think that's the best

10:18

thing to do. But of course, as

10:20

Roger has always said, if there's a

10:22

long tradition of people

10:24

laying poppy wreaths on the steps at

10:26

the foot of it, which obviously has a

10:28

particular focus around

10:30

remember on Sunday in November.

10:32

But actually, it's something that

10:35

happens all the way through the year, there are always

10:37

people that are actually laying their

10:39

tributes there and and coming to visit it,

10:41

and people do come visit it for a

10:43

number of reasons, but commemoration is still

10:45

something that it does. Of course, it's

10:47

been enormously influential and

10:49

successful that what

10:51

started off as the commemoration

10:53

of the dead of the first world

10:55

war that never found their own

10:57

resting place. It now

10:59

has massively broadened and

11:01

as Rotura said, it's not just the the

11:03

dead now of the armed forces of

11:05

the United Kingdom. It now actually speaks

11:08

very much of armed forces of the commonwealth.

11:10

And of course, you know, has

11:12

has come to be the focus of commemoration

11:14

after many other wars. So

11:16

it really is probably one of the

11:18

most significant monuments the English

11:20

heritage has the privilege of looking after.

11:22

It's almost like the first

11:24

major commemoration, isn't it

11:26

of the first World War and

11:28

then obviously with the inscription after

11:30

the Second World War that it was also

11:33

representing that as well. But

11:35

initially, obviously, this first

11:37

great national memorial to the First

11:39

World War. And of course, this

11:41

year, if you're listening in twenty twenty

11:43

two, will be the first time that

11:45

the new king, King Charles the third,

11:47

would be leading the nation's commemorations

11:49

after the death of Queen

11:51

Elizabeth II. So that that's another

11:53

first to consider as well. Well,

11:56

let's move on to our next

11:58

memorial to the Great Four. Jeremy,

11:59

can you introduce it us. And

12:02

where we're going? Well, we don't have to go

12:04

very far for this one because it's

12:06

actually on Whitehall two, but

12:08

we've got to head north for just a few minutes walk.

12:10

So we go past the entrance to

12:12

Downing Street, which is on the western

12:14

side. And if we're on

12:16

that side, we'll have cross over the road,

12:18

taking great care for it to avoid the

12:20

traffic. And just a

12:22

little bit further to the north, we

12:24

come upon another memorial to the Great War, which

12:26

is a statue of Field Marshal

12:29

Earl Hague. Roger

12:31

tell us who Earl Hague was. and

12:33

when was his statue created?

12:35

Well, Douglas Hague born

12:37

eighteen sixty one, he's born into

12:39

the famous family of

12:41

whiskey distillers. Don't be vague.

12:43

Ask for vague. You remember from the

12:45

adverts. He joins the

12:47

army after having studied Oxford, so

12:49

he's quite a learning of officer. He's

12:51

he's a cavalry officer. He then

12:53

rises up through the Army's

12:55

staff corps, and he's

12:57

one of the leading generals sent out

12:59

in nineteen fourteen. to

13:01

command the armies on the western

13:03

front, and he becomes the

13:06

overall commander in chief of the

13:08

British Army. in the middle of nineteen

13:10

fifteen replacing Cajon French.

13:12

And he continues to lead

13:14

the

13:14

British Army and Canadian

13:17

and sack other forces until

13:19

the

13:19

end of the war. So he bears

13:21

this incredible burden of

13:23

command. on the western front,

13:26

which must be one of the tasteless

13:28

responsibilities

13:29

any soldier has ever had to carry.

13:31

How

13:32

do we see Earl Hague appearing

13:34

as this statue? Is he quite high

13:36

up? Is he how does he appear?

13:38

Again, I really recommend

13:40

people coming to Whitehall have a look at

13:42

this because this this is an unusual

13:44

statue. Now we had

13:46

equestrian statues of

13:48

Roman Emperor's on powerful

13:50

horses going back to classical

13:52

times. And there's the very

13:54

famous statue of the sixteen

13:56

thirties by LaSueux of

13:58

Charles the first, a charring cross,

14:00

which again is just a couple of hundred yards

14:03

further north than this one.

14:05

So this is part of a tradition of

14:08

depicting commanders and rulers

14:10

on horseback. The

14:12

powerful horse is the equivalent of

14:14

the state or the army that

14:16

this single individual is controlling.

14:19

This is a really muscular taut

14:21

horse he's quite ferocious and

14:24

it's quite a stylized horse

14:27

by the sculptor Alfred

14:29

Hardiman. Haig is

14:31

there in his uniform. He's not wearing

14:33

a cap, oddly. Maybe we can talk about

14:35

that later. Mhmm. It's in bronze

14:37

on a Portland stone clinth,

14:39

and it's it's an impressive and but

14:42

curious affair. So

14:44

when was the statue created after

14:47

the Great War? Hague dies.

14:49

He has a heart attack in

14:51

nineteen twenty eight. He's sixty six

14:53

years old. And the monument

14:55

goes up in nineteen thirty seven.

14:58

And it takes a while because there's a certain

15:00

amount of controversy about what

15:02

the monument should be like. Plus,

15:04

you can't just knock up a bronze statue

15:06

of this scale overnight. It's a very, very

15:09

complex demanding process,

15:11

but it certainly took a while

15:13

longer than it might have. because there was

15:15

quite a row about how he should be

15:17

depicted. So what was

15:19

this controversy over Field

15:21

Marshal, Earl Hague? Well, it

15:23

is actually largely a stylistic

15:26

argument about how he should be

15:28

represented. If you go to Edinbrook

15:30

Castle, there's an equestrian statue of

15:32

Earl Hague. which is

15:34

quite tame, if I could say

15:36

that. It's quite so straightforward and

15:38

realistic and traditional

15:40

and actually, you know, not

15:42

all that remarkable in sculptural

15:45

terms. What Hardiman achieved

15:47

was a modern equestrian

15:50

statue. full of

15:52

muscular taught power in

15:54

the horse and

15:56

an interesting depiction of a

15:58

girl hague. and Hague's

15:59

widow really didn't like what was being

16:02

proposed. She said, that's not what his

16:04

horse looked like. She wanted a

16:06

realistic horse. And so you got

16:08

this predictable argument

16:11

between traditionalists who wanted

16:13

a more realistic horse versus

16:15

the artistic lobby, who were

16:17

after something in which the

16:20

nature of the representation of

16:22

the horse contributed

16:24

to the portrayal of the man. And

16:26

that's what you get. There's a

16:28

coiled muscular Greek

16:30

inspired horse. with Hague

16:32

on top. Hague looking slightly

16:34

unusual because he's not wearing his

16:36

cap. Yes.

16:37

Tell us about that. Most people if they've

16:39

seen maybe the film Warhorse,

16:41

for example, or they've seen black and white

16:43

images of the First World War, they would have

16:45

seen the cavalrymen with

16:47

these distinct hats with these

16:49

visors over the front, these caps.

16:51

So why wasn't he wearing that in this

16:53

in this statue? For

16:55

a field marshal to go out without

16:57

wearing his cap? when

16:58

he's wearing uniform would be unthinkable.

17:01

So it's an attempt

17:03

to place greater emphasis on the portrait

17:05

of the man by not distracting with

17:08

a cap. If you look at the statue of

17:10

Marshal Foch, the French

17:12

commander, near Victoria station,

17:14

he's firmly wearing his his

17:16

French cap or key p, as they

17:18

call him. So why is he

17:20

wearing hat Hardiman? I think it's

17:22

another challenge. to the traditions

17:24

of the equestrian commander's statue. And again,

17:26

it was a reason for controversy.

17:28

The other thing that strikes me

17:30

is that I think Hague

17:33

He was unpopular for his decisions on

17:35

the battlefield as well. Does this sort of feed

17:37

into the controversy around

17:40

the erection of this statue?

17:42

I would say later

17:45

on, it certainly colors people's

17:47

views about this statue. Initially,

17:49

the statue was erected

17:52

in tribute to his hugely important role

17:54

as the commander on the Western

17:56

front, but also his post

17:58

war conduct. he was very

17:59

concerned about the welfare of

18:02

wounded and mutilated

18:05

survivors of the war. so

18:07

a number of Hague memorial homes

18:09

were set up in which Limeless people

18:11

could be cared for properly. He

18:13

was instrumental in setting up the British legion

18:16

which he headed initially. So the feeling

18:18

was he was a

18:21

very worthy leader

18:23

in peacetime of the

18:25

Army community, which had suffered so

18:27

badly. But in the nineteen

18:29

sixties, in particular, he

18:31

becomes a bogeyman. and he

18:34

still has a somewhat checkered

18:36

reputation that we can talk about if

18:38

you like. How would you describe how

18:40

historians view him these

18:42

days? It's still a mixed

18:45

picture, but the people who

18:47

really criticized the command

18:49

structures of the first

18:51

world war I think are now less

18:53

to the four in terms of the

18:55

historiographical discourse.

18:58

People recognize the enormity of

19:00

the challenges he faced as the

19:02

overall commander. They recognize that

19:04

the British and commonwealth

19:07

army did end up being

19:10

a phenomenally successful

19:12

weapon of warfare defeating the powerful

19:14

German army in nineteen eighteen,

19:16

helping take the pressure off

19:18

the French, helping evolve a

19:20

modern form of combined arms

19:23

warfare that brought in tanks,

19:25

aircraft, mobile responses

19:28

to the nature of frontline fighting.

19:31

plus the huge logistical challenges of

19:33

running such a vast

19:35

army. It was a phenomenal achievement.

19:37

but there is no discising the huge loss

19:40

of life that was also incurred.

19:42

An interesting statue, certainly

19:44

that one, and very near to the epitaph,

19:47

as Jeremy described. Let's move on

19:49

to our third memorial to

19:51

the Great War. Jeremy, can

19:53

you introduce how we get there

19:56

if we are traveling on foot from

19:58

the O'Hay Memorial. Certainly.

20:00

So everyone now come with me. We've

20:02

been going up Whitehall which

20:05

is parallel to the river Thames. The river Thames,

20:07

if we're heading north, the river Thames is

20:09

just out of sight on our right

20:12

and we've now got a cut through somewhere

20:14

to get to the river thames. And just

20:16

beyond Elhaig's statue,

20:18

there is indeed a street that will do that,

20:20

you need to follow signs for

20:23

embankment underground station,

20:25

embankment tube station. And once we're

20:27

at embankment and tube station. We can actually see

20:29

the river and we need to keep

20:31

heading north east further

20:33

along the river. And then we

20:36

come to Just on other side of road from the river,

20:38

we see some gardens called Victoria

20:40

embankment gardens and

20:43

it's set in Victorian Bank and

20:45

Gardens that we find are

20:47

third memorial, which is the

20:49

Belgian gratitude

20:51

memorial. So how does this differ, this

20:53

setting from those at the center

20:55

of and the Haid memorial? I suppose it's

20:57

the fact that this particular structure

20:59

is actually surrounded by

21:01

greenery. That's exactly right that

21:03

it's still, of course, in a city

21:05

setting. But for once, it's

21:07

actually, you know, surrounded by

21:09

by green lawns, although you

21:11

can you can get to it directly from the pavement.

21:13

So it is actually a bit of a softer

21:16

setting than we find for some of the others. but

21:18

also quite grand because,

21:20

you know, it's not affected by traffic. It's

21:22

not in a road. It's in a garden.

21:24

And it's hugged by stone

21:26

and the semi circular war.

21:29

It's a it's a very imposing statue,

21:31

actually physically. It's it's not one of the

21:33

larger ones, I think, physically. clear. I hope I've got

21:35

this right that actually some of the others are are

21:37

much much bigger. So I I always think

21:39

of the Belgian gratitude memorial as actually being

21:41

quite an intimate space. Yes,

21:43

you can walk up steps and get close to it. So it

21:45

does invite close inspection in that way.

21:47

Can you describe it, Roger,

21:50

for people who trying to

21:52

imagine it in their minds eye.

21:54

So we're in embankment

21:56

gardens. We've got plain trees

21:58

set behind it. we've got this curving Portland

22:01

stone screen designed by

22:03

the well known British architects'

22:05

original Blomfield. And

22:07

on either side of the centerpiece are

22:09

two high relief sculptures in

22:12

Portland, stone that are now getting

22:14

very eroded. On the left hand, you've

22:16

got justice. And on the

22:18

right hand, you've got honor.

22:20

Honor is a figure of

22:22

Saint George. that's like

22:24

Britain coming to protect Belgium from this

22:26

dreadful invasion. Justice

22:28

on the left is an allegorical

22:30

woman. and you used to be able

22:32

to see that she was holding a scroll,

22:34

and this scroll depicted the

22:36

all important treaty of

22:39

London. That was a diplomatic treaty of eighteen thirty

22:41

seven. There was of critical importance

22:43

in Britain coming into the

22:45

First World War. because in

22:48

it, Britain undertook to

22:50

come to Belgium's protection

22:52

should it ever be invaded?

22:54

so Britain was pledging its support

22:57

in the event of invasion. And

22:59

that's what brought Britain into the first

23:01

world war. So the scroll that she's

23:03

holding is really important. Are there

23:05

any inscriptions as well? Not

23:07

many. You've just got these words justice

23:09

and honor that explain

23:11

what those groups mean. this

23:13

is one of those monuments that's really important to that

23:15

it needs interpretation. It's why

23:17

you need to look at the his English

23:20

heritage websites or better of all

23:22

by the guidebook because it does give you

23:24

a bit of explanation. So

23:26

given the title of the artwork, this was

23:28

presumably a gift from Belgium

23:31

after the Great War, the Belgian gratitude

23:34

memorial. It was indeed. It

23:36

was as early as nineteen

23:38

sixteen. So in the middle of the

23:40

war, the Belgian community in

23:42

exile is beginning to think how can

23:44

we show our gratitude to Britain, not

23:46

only for coming to fight for

23:49

Belgium's independence, also for

23:51

receiving a quarter of a million

23:53

refugees who moved to

23:55

Britain after the Germans invaded

23:57

in August nineteen fourteen.

23:59

So it's a very strong sense of gratitude

24:02

owed by the Belgians

24:04

to Britain. This monument is is

24:06

the result of it. Belgium has got

24:08

a very flourishing tradition of

24:11

raising monuments, very

24:13

impressive sculptural tradition, say

24:16

they probably knew how long it would take to

24:18

get something off the stocks. But it also

24:20

shows just an awareness of of the

24:22

obligations of gratitude. Tell

24:24

us who created it then. You mentioned

24:26

the architect was original Blomfield.

24:29

Who else was involved in this

24:31

project? So it's very much a a

24:33

joint act, Blomfield, who was one of

24:35

the architects along with Sir

24:37

Edmund Lutyens and Sir Herbert Baker,

24:40

of the Imperial Walgreens Commission.

24:42

Longfield did the setting, but

24:44

it was Victor Russo who

24:46

was a distinguished Belgian r sculptor

24:49

who would who worked for

24:51

decades by the time he he got this commission.

24:54

He was born in eighteen sixty five. So

24:57

he was What's that make him thirty five? Yeah.

24:59

Around about fifty when this commission

25:01

came to him. And he was used to

25:03

modeling on a big scale, so he'd have

25:05

produced a clay

25:07

full size model that

25:09

would then get replicated in plaster,

25:11

and

25:11

that plaster becomes the

25:14

cast into which the final Braun's

25:16

version would have been made.

25:18

You

25:18

mentioned that, of course, time

25:21

has eroded at the

25:23

stone. can you describe how well it survived

25:25

since being unveiled in nineteen

25:28

twenty? Well, it it

25:29

survived in Two

25:31

ways, the bronze is an extraordinary

25:33

material that is so enduring and that looks

25:35

great and that's looked after by

25:37

English heritage. It gets repatinated

25:40

when they put a kind of polish on it to protect

25:42

the surface. But the Portland stone

25:45

is definitely eroding. And

25:47

the figures of justice on Earth are actually quite

25:49

disfigured. They almost grow tesk because the

25:51

stone is eroded. And you're

25:53

quite near the very busy

25:56

Victoria Bankment, which is a busy traffic route.

25:58

So you get salty air.

26:00

You get salt from the roads. You

26:02

get dirt. You get droppings from the

26:04

plane trees above. the whole thing

26:07

actually contributes to

26:09

the declining condition. This

26:11

is probably a moment where I could jump in,

26:13

talk a little bit about the conservation,

26:15

both of this of other war memorials

26:17

because they do post some

26:19

particularly interesting and important challenges. I

26:21

mean, exactly as Roger has

26:23

said, the environment of

26:25

a very busy capital city.

26:27

Actually isn't doing too many favors for

26:29

some of these monuments, especially the ones that

26:31

are made of Portland stone, which is, you know,

26:33

it's it's a very when it's clean, it's a

26:35

very white stone, but it's also a porous

26:38

stone, it takes in moisture, and it

26:40

also takes in if the

26:42

rainwater has actually got lots of

26:44

soot or other particles in it, they will actually

26:46

get into the stone and discolor it.

26:48

So one of the very delicate balances that

26:50

we at English heritage have is that

26:52

we really want to make

26:54

these monuments to look after

26:56

them properly to arrest the agencies of

26:59

of decay and also to make sure that

27:01

they are not just

27:03

presentable, but actually very presentable,

27:05

looking very good for when

27:07

people want to come to these monuments

27:09

actually to have moments of

27:11

commemoration. And as I say, it's a delicate balance

27:14

because the very act of cleaning

27:16

a monument, if not done

27:18

extremely carefully, can

27:20

actually accelerate some of the degradation

27:22

of monuments, and particularly where

27:24

you've got delicate carving

27:27

in stone or as we're going to encounter

27:29

with some of the other one memorials actually

27:31

delicate carving in quite low

27:33

relief. That's a really very difficult

27:35

challenge. I think it's unthinkable we would

27:37

actually want to actually try

27:39

to recurve the the the

27:41

sculpture themselves. So quite

27:43

often, it's just a matter of what is the

27:45

gentlest way that we can clean them. or is

27:47

there some other way we can protect them like

27:49

putting on some kind of shelter coating

27:51

onto the surface that will

27:53

actually slow down some of the agencies

27:55

of their erosion. It's

27:57

a difficult prospect, isn't it,

27:59

really? Well, it's it's a challenge that, of

28:01

course, we embrace and we know that

28:03

we have to. But I think if I find, you

28:06

know, one of the observations that I've made in the

28:08

years that I've been sort of thinking about these

28:10

is that often I think when we think

28:12

of war memorials and we think of

28:14

the cemeteries of the war dead, we do

28:16

tend to think of these in

28:18

a very rural settings

28:20

surrounded by trees, you know, with with green

28:22

lawns, and, you know, it's all quite peaceful,

28:24

and it's actually very different setting in which

28:26

these monuments are in in Central

28:29

London, but yet we want to maintain

28:31

them to the same kind of impeccable

28:33

standards. We we need them to

28:35

be looking at their best.

28:37

Jeremy, let's move on to our next

28:40

memorial. Yeah. This this is gonna be a

28:42

slightly tricky journey. So if you've got

28:44

your mobile phone with you. I would strongly you

28:46

to tap in actually the address that we're looking

28:48

for is Saint Martin's Place. But

28:50

if you need a big landmark,

28:53

you could look for Trafalgar Square that it's actually very

28:55

near or the Church of Saint Martin's in

28:57

the fields. It's it's actually Saint

28:59

Martin's Place is just to the north of

29:01

the Church of of Marsons in the

29:03

fields. It's quite near the London

29:06

Colosseum for any fans of the English National Opera

29:08

or whatever is there and a quite

29:10

well known pub called the Duke of Chandos

29:12

is actually quite nearby. So

29:14

essentially, you've got a backtrack a little bit. You've

29:16

got to go inland, back

29:18

towards a strand and sharing cross

29:20

station, and just to the north of the strand is where we'll

29:22

find our fourth memorial which is the

29:24

statue of Edith Cabelle.

29:26

Roger, who was Edith Cabelle? What's

29:28

her story in the Great War?

29:31

It's a really important story, and this is one

29:33

of the very very few

29:35

monuments anywhere in the world to an

29:37

individual woman as a wall memorial.

29:40

So Edith Cabelle a Norwich Norfolk

29:43

born nurse born in eighteen

29:45

sixty five. When Wall broke out in

29:47

nineteen fourteen, she was

29:49

in charge of a nurse's

29:51

training college in Brussels. She

29:53

decided

29:53

to stay at her post that she

29:56

wasn't going to go back

29:58

to

29:58

England, she stayed at her

30:01

post, and she started

30:03

to assist British

30:05

and allied soldiers. who'd been caught behind the lines

30:08

to try and get them into neutral

30:10

Holland from where they could make their

30:12

way back. and she

30:14

was arrested by the Germans, tried

30:17

under martial law and

30:20

executed which

30:21

is not something that happens to many

30:24

nurses,

30:24

in nineteen fifteen, and

30:26

this became a co

30:28

collaborator for the Allied War Corps.

30:30

who had already realized that

30:32

the Germans were committing atrocities on

30:35

their invasion of Belgium

30:37

and into but the shooting of a middle aged

30:40

nurse really took the

30:42

biscuits. What kind of

30:44

execution was it? Do we

30:46

know? She was shot by firing

30:48

squad. Firing squad from October nineteen

30:50

fifteen. I see.

30:52

Terrible circumstance obviously. And I

30:54

suppose would it have been more shocking

30:57

that a woman who's trying to

30:59

help, you know, isn't carrying a

31:01

weapon effectively will be killed in such

31:03

a sort of quick and brutal

31:06

manner was this quite shocking to the British

31:09

public? It was shocking to the world public,

31:11

and you find references

31:13

and even monuments to each Cabelle

31:15

right across the Commonwealth. It was

31:17

completely shocking. It was

31:19

said to sum up the

31:21

hung barbarity that people were

31:23

fighting against. So she

31:25

becomes a a martyr and a leading

31:28

propaganda figure. At what stage

31:29

then did her statue come

31:32

to be created? Did

31:34

we have to wait until the end of the war for Edith Cavel's memorial

31:36

to be created? It's

31:38

actually

31:38

immediately the news of her death

31:41

reaches reaches England. that

31:43

their campaign starts led by the Daily

31:45

Telegraph newspaper that she's got to

31:47

be commemorated. And so this becomes

31:50

another really quite early public

31:52

monumental responses to be

31:54

unveiled, which takes place in nineteen

31:56

twenty when Queen

31:58

Alexandra does the unveiling of to

32:00

George Remptons really handsome

32:02

monument. So if we're standing just

32:04

outside Saint Martin's in the

32:06

Fields Church, we're looking perhaps

32:08

across the road towards the National Portrait

32:10

Gallery, how do we see edith

32:13

appear to us? Franton's monument

32:15

is very admired. It's a very

32:17

effective and powerful monument that combines

32:19

elements of tradition and

32:21

modernity. Her

32:23

statue is a tall rather

32:26

stylized, elegant figure of a

32:28

woman in marble looking

32:30

out straight into the mid distance,

32:32

you can imagine her facing

32:34

off the firing squad. There

32:36

she is beneath the single

32:39

word, humanity. which appears above.

32:41

She stands against a very tall

32:44

structure which is made of gray granite

32:46

and this has a tall

32:48

shaft with a crossed to the principal part in

32:51

relief. And above that, you

32:53

have the words king and country.

32:55

And right at the top, seated

32:58

effectively on another cross at the

33:00

top is a

33:02

figure of really

33:04

it's a maternal figure.

33:06

with the bags of nurses cross

33:09

on her skirt. And this

33:11

woman is cradling a

33:13

baby. And this is

33:15

said to represent the protection

33:17

that Britain afforded the smaller

33:20

nations, which had led it into

33:23

war. So it's a it's

33:25

a figure of humanity, but

33:27

it's also a political figure

33:29

showing Britain's commitment. to world

33:32

peace in a sense. And on the back,

33:34

you got a wonderful relief of his

33:36

proud lion standing

33:38

poised on a rock with

33:40

the word fortitude. So

33:43

Britain is is in the

33:45

vanguard of watching out for

33:47

infractions of the world order, and

33:49

that's what took it into war. And

33:51

that's description is in capitals

33:54

similar to the previous

33:56

morials we've just discussed, but

33:58

I think the thing that most people will

34:00

notice is that Edith and

34:03

her name, it's etched in

34:05

gold lettering, is it not? It

34:07

is absolutely right. There's a sort

34:09

of almost a sanctity to

34:11

stressing her her martyrdom, if you

34:13

like. And you're right. The the nature

34:15

of the inscriptions is picked out. But as I'm

34:17

sure you're gonna ask me shortly,

34:20

there's another inscription on this that's

34:22

really interesting.

34:24

Yes.

34:24

So tell us about that one. So this

34:26

monument was unveiled in nineteen twenty, and some people

34:29

felt it wasn't quite

34:32

right. There

34:33

was something missing. Maybe it was a

34:35

bit martial. It was a bit sort of

34:37

almost boastful of Britain's prowess

34:39

at upholding justice. and

34:41

an organization called the National Council of

34:44

Women lobbied to have an

34:46

amendment made to the inscription. They didn't want

34:48

anything taken off, but they wanted

34:50

something added. and that

34:52

was a famous statement that she had

34:54

made in her farewell

34:56

letter before she was taken out to

34:58

be shot. So on the front of the pedestal beneath her

35:00

statue, you've got the wordsidis

35:02

Cabelle, Brussels, Dorne,

35:04

October the twelfth, nineteen fifteen.

35:08

then you have an added inscription. And

35:10

the words of these, patriotism

35:13

is not enough. I must

35:15

have no hatred or bitterness

35:18

towards anyone. And

35:20

I think that is such a thought provoking

35:22

inscription to read on a warm memorial.

35:24

What is that supposed to mean do think? I think it's

35:27

a challenge to the concepts of

35:29

a monument which glorifies

35:34

triumph and martial achievement. I think

35:36

it's saying that we need to

35:38

think about the consequences of peace.

35:40

We need to think about reconciliation.

35:43

and we need to think about the true nature

35:45

of moral courage, which in Edith

35:47

Cavel's case, was facing up to a

35:49

German firing squad. because she

35:51

was sticking to her principles of

35:54

helping people. It's almost like she's

35:56

almost forgiven the enemy

35:58

as well before she takes

35:59

her last breath kind of

36:02

thing with this inscription. Absolutely right. I think

36:03

it's a very Christian commentary on

36:06

reconciliation and

36:08

sacrifice. I think it's just

36:10

really thought provoking. What's your view,

36:12

Jeremy, have you seen this one a few times? I've

36:14

seen this one many times, and just as

36:17

Roger has said, I mean, it's it's an architectural

36:19

and artistic masterpiece. It's very striking. And I

36:21

think, you know, quite often when you look at it,

36:23

you'd you'd actually think that it's actually more modern than

36:25

it is. It

36:28

has It has an angular, very, very sort of bold quality

36:30

to it. But of course, the

36:32

actual heart of it is that inscription

36:34

about patriotism is not enough.

36:37

you know, fortunately, that's that's the side that's facing towards

36:40

the north. So actually quite a lot of people see it

36:42

as they passed by.

36:44

And I'm sure as as I was, you know, you

36:46

feel inspired to actually find

36:48

out more about the story that that underlies

36:50

this. And of course, it's a very, very affecting

36:52

story. Well, let's move on to

36:54

our next memorial, which is in

36:56

London, of course. as part of the

36:58

Great War commemorations.

37:00

Jeremy, can you take us on a trip

37:02

to where we're going next? I can, but

37:04

we've actually this is the journey

37:06

that we the longest journey that we'll be doing in our trip because we've got to

37:08

get to the other end of Piccadilly. We've got to

37:10

get to Hyde Park Corner. So

37:14

I wouldn't think badly of anyone who would say, oh,

37:16

let's get a bus or let's get a tube. And

37:18

actually, you can get a tube fairly

37:20

directly from

37:22

Leicester Square or from

37:24

Piccadilly circus, which is actually just around

37:26

just through Leicester Square and a little

37:28

bit further towards the

37:30

west and get on the Piccadilly line. walk

37:32

all the way down the broad street of

37:34

Piccadilly itself. Everything opens out

37:36

and you are at the space that

37:38

we now know as Hyde Park corner.

37:41

So Apsley House, the home of the Duke of Wellington, is just on

37:43

the north side of that.

37:45

And surrounded by a

37:48

road, there's there's a

37:50

broad open space with a large

37:52

number of warm memorials. And

37:54

the last two that we're gonna

37:56

be talking about today are in the same place, and we're

37:58

gonna start off, I think, by talking

37:59

about one on the north side of

38:02

the high part corner, space called

38:04

the machine

38:06

gun. Core Memorial. And Roger, can you pick

38:08

up the story and describe

38:10

how this memorial appears to the visitor?

38:14

This is an unusual memorial and a classic

38:16

example of needing to understand the

38:18

background before you can appreciate it fully.

38:22

What you see in the center standing on a a

38:24

square plinth is a

38:26

very handsome bronze naked

38:30

figure. of a young sword.

38:32

He's completely naked, so the

38:34

emphasis is on male beauty and

38:38

vulnerability. And because of huge

38:40

sword, we are put

38:43

in mind of David from

38:45

the bible picking up

38:47

glass sword perhaps. The strange thing is that

38:49

this statue is then flanked by

38:52

two vicar's

38:54

machine guns. cast

38:56

immaculately in bronze with accompanying

39:01

kit beside them. and resting

39:04

against each of their barrels is

39:06

a large Laurel wreath,

39:09

also in bronze. So the architecture of this, which is in

39:11

marble, is extremely classical. The

39:14

statue is very refined and

39:18

of renaissance inspiration, but you've got these

39:20

two bits of the hardware of

39:22

mass killing, two Vickers machine guns on

39:26

either side. So it's a it's distinct

39:28

branch of the army, which was the

39:30

machine gun corps. Yes. An interesting

39:32

contrast, that isn't it. This

39:35

young man is David of David

39:37

and Goliath. That's what we

39:39

understand. Yep. And I think he is

39:41

too, Roger, because you know, the the

39:44

it's in a it's in a very clear classical tradition, and there are bronze statues

39:46

by, you know, renaissance masters like

39:48

Donatello that are definite. you

39:51

know, of David and the fact that his sword

39:53

is so outstanding. And there's also an

39:56

inscription, I believe, on

39:58

the plin that actually has a has a verse from the bible that

39:59

talks about David and Saul. Yeah. I'm

40:02

sure I'm sure that that that's who

40:04

it is. absolutely right,

40:06

and the the inscription is one of those ones

40:08

that really brings you up short when you

40:10

read it. It says,

40:12

saw, have slain

40:14

his thousands. but David, his tens of

40:16

thousands. So you're celebrating the

40:18

achievement of mass killing. In the

40:20

context of the first world war,

40:22

because the

40:24

machine guns was one of those new elements of modern warfare

40:26

that was responsible for

40:28

the appalling death tally. Most

40:30

people were killed by artillery, on

40:34

the western front, but as we'll know that talk about soon. But

40:36

machine guns are also renowned

40:39

for the ghastly harvest

40:42

of advancing troops. We think about the first day of

40:44

the Somme and people being mone

40:46

down by Rose. So the

40:50

machine gun was very much a modern weapon of its

40:52

time. And this memorial

40:54

was put up not only to mark the people

40:56

killed who were fighting in the machine

40:58

gun corps,

41:00

It was also put up to mark the

41:02

end of that unit because the machine gun corps was wound up

41:04

in nineteen twenty two and

41:06

machine guns distributed throughout the

41:10

infantry. So it's a monument, not just to the fallen, but to

41:12

a whole unit. Right.

41:13

So what date was that

41:16

memorial created

41:18

then? So that was unveiled in

41:20

nineteen twenty five, and it was one of the last works of the

41:22

famous new sculptor, Francis

41:26

Darrant Wood.

41:28

who was a a very interesting figure, a

41:30

Royal Academy Mission, and he had quite an

41:33

interesting first world war. he

41:35

had a personal connection to the Great War,

41:38

didn't he? He did.

41:40

This is a really great

41:42

example of

41:44

imaginative, clever art historical

41:46

research, helping us understand the

41:48

art of the past better. A

41:50

scholar called Sarah Krelin

41:52

looked into

41:54

what it Durbinwood done during the war. He'd actually

41:56

worked at a hospital. He'd worked

41:58

at a hospital in London, and

41:59

his particular responsibility

42:02

very much suited his

42:04

sculptural talent. He was actually

42:06

helping make facial masks

42:08

that the disfigured wounded

42:11

who were coming back from the fighting, could then

42:14

put on and then go out

42:16

into society. So he was

42:18

helping disguise

42:20

the poorling facial

42:22

disfigurements that some of these men

42:24

suffered by really turning

42:26

them out and his studio

42:28

at the hospital in London was

42:31

officially called the masks for facial

42:34

disfigurement department, but

42:36

it it carried the the rather grotesque

42:38

nickname of the tin noses shop.

42:41

I see. I was just about to ask you what

42:43

sort of materials these masks were made

42:45

out of, but that sort of summed it

42:47

up. Were there other materials that

42:49

were used? Well, would make these sort of

42:51

bits of faces out

42:54

of painted tin, and

42:57

they would put these on, often held in place

42:59

with spectacles, and you would then have

43:02

an application of makeup

43:04

applied to

43:06

help bridge the divide between living flesh and

43:08

your prosthetic tin nose.

43:10

So it's a pretty clever bit

43:13

of theatrical disguise. How was

43:16

this memorial received when it was

43:18

first unveiled then? Because

43:20

obviously, there's quite a lot

43:22

going on in this

43:24

particular memorial it's got the classical and the modern,

43:26

the sort of nudity

43:28

of David and the

43:30

sort of brash harshness

43:32

of the

43:34

industrial machine guns, which are

43:36

either side of him. So there's

43:38

a lot going on, isn't there?

43:41

Yes, there is. I mean,

43:43

originally, this monument stood rather

43:45

furlongly in a traffic island

43:47

just to the south of the

43:49

Royal Artillery memorial which is is just across the other

43:51

side of High Park corner.

43:54

So in fact, like many of these

43:56

were more Oorials. Apart

43:58

from the acts of commemoration in

44:00

November, they were quite often rather

44:02

overlooked. And this has been sort

44:04

of written off as just a

44:07

a plexing and rather inappropriate kind

44:09

of memorial. It's only

44:11

recently with Seracron scholarship

44:14

that we see it. for the really

44:16

poignant tribute to the

44:18

appalling impact on the human body

44:20

of modern mass killing. III

44:23

have to say that, I mean, you know, since I first heard this

44:25

story, it completely changed my opinion

44:27

about this stuck

44:30

to where I think I had taken the line, as Roger

44:32

has said, and particularly when you compare

44:34

it with the last one that we're going to be discussing,

44:36

the Royal Artillery Wall Memorial, which takes

44:40

completely different approach. This had just seemed crass

44:42

in the extreme that this figure

44:44

of, you know, sort of beautiful youth

44:48

actually completely failing to

44:50

deal with the reality of the

44:52

damage that machine guns could do.

44:55

and the inscription talks about, you

44:57

know, the glorious heroes, the machine gun corps, and

44:59

well, you know, one doesn't want to.

45:01

Be disparaging about any the the

45:03

servicemen who fought and gave their lives. Nevertheless, it doesn't

45:05

feel as if it it actually

45:07

captures anything like the truth of the First World

45:09

War. And yet,

45:12

suddenly realizing that actually there's a

45:14

great significance in choosing

45:17

this figure of

45:19

aesthetic beauty that would

45:22

absolutely knew whereof he spoke

45:24

and he knew the full horror

45:26

of of the disfigurement that war would cause and

45:28

yet wanted to represent it

45:30

in this very idealized,

45:32

you know, male figure it's

45:35

it's very very complex, but actually,

45:38

you have once you know that story,

45:40

you can't look at it again

45:42

without being deeply moved,

45:44

I feel. Yes.

45:44

I think that's a really important point. And suppose as

45:47

well those men who were

45:49

left as figured but

45:51

survived the war. very

45:54

exposed in the same way that David

45:56

is on that plinth. So I

45:58

suppose there's that to consider as

45:59

well, that sort of newity

46:01

that nakedness is is

46:04

a kind of vulnerability as

46:06

well. That's an interesting thought. I I

46:08

have to admit that I'd never considered

46:10

that, but that certainly is worth worth thinking about. Okay. So another one

46:12

for the guidebooks there. You can quote me

46:15

on that one. Jeremy,

46:17

let's move on to our final

46:20

memorial of the Great War, which is the

46:22

Royal Artillery Memorial as you

46:24

just intimated. It's in the same

46:26

area. It is where you only need to go a

46:28

few steps away from this. So in fact, you

46:30

know, as we walk back down

46:32

the steps, the machine gunner's memorial, and we've got the Wellington

46:34

arch, right is right in front of us.

46:36

And there's some modern

46:38

memorials around nearby. There's

46:42

a very striking memorial to New Zealand servicemen over

46:44

on our left and in our in the distance

46:46

on our right is the wonderful

46:48

memorial to

46:50

Australian service and in the shape

46:52

of a boomerang, but with a fountain playing over inscriptions of all of places

46:54

where servicemen have lost their lives.

46:58

But

46:58

what we are doing is we are ignoring those and we are actually just

47:00

heading right over towards the right,

47:03

so that's towards the western side

47:05

of the traffic island.

47:08

and there is the last. And I have to give opinion here.

47:10

I think the finest of the

47:12

war memorials, the royal artillery war

47:16

memorial. Roger,

47:17

can you describe how it appears?

47:19

because this is a very very

47:21

large structure, isn't it towards the bottom

47:23

end of the traffic island?

47:25

yeah, this monument is an

47:27

absolute whopper. It's a

47:29

life size stone nine

47:32

point two

47:34

inch Howitzer. and the the actual gun that

47:36

Jagger and the architect,

47:38

Lionel Pearson, based it on,

47:40

still exists in the Imperial

47:42

War Museum. the ironic

47:44

name of mother. And

47:46

so this colossal Howitzer,

47:48

which is like a heavy

47:50

heavy cannon for pumping out huge shells as

47:53

of siege warfare, points towards

47:55

France and the Western

47:58

Front. and then it stands

48:00

on this really large

48:02

raised base that's in

48:04

plan, looks like a cross. But I

48:06

suspect the element that people really

48:08

remember about this memorial are

48:11

twofold. One, on each

48:13

side, is a bronze statue. three

48:15

of them are standing representing

48:18

gunners, and on the fourth

48:20

side is

48:22

a corpse. And then between these bronze statues

48:24

are the most wonderful

48:26

reliefs showing different forms of

48:28

artillery warfare.

48:30

and they are incredibly vivid depictions

48:32

of actual fighting in the

48:34

first world war, but they draw

48:37

on ancient traditions. So they've drawn

48:39

the sculpture of Assyria, of

48:42

Egypt, and of classical

48:44

sculpture. And it really

48:45

is the most tremendous achievement

48:48

all in all. Yes. I

48:49

think the thing that you really are struck

48:51

by when you see it is how

48:53

large it is. You've got

48:55

the stone plinth and the steps

48:57

below. And then you as you've been describing, you've got this giant piece of

49:00

artillery on the top. And then you've

49:02

also got

49:04

around this

49:06

area. You've got a number of soldiers standing

49:09

almost I don't know whether they're sleeping

49:11

or they're just bowing their

49:14

heads. in a sort of visual kind of state, that's quite

49:16

a striking image as well, isn't it? Very

49:18

much. So I wouldn't say they

49:19

were sleeping. I would say

49:22

they were resolutely resting.

49:24

You've got one who's a

49:26

driver, so who's used to driving

49:29

riding horses, carrying artillery wagons.

49:32

At the south end, you've got an

49:34

artillery officer as a

49:36

very very strong holding a folded

49:39

over overcoat that always brings to

49:41

mind my grandfather who was an

49:43

artillery officer in the

49:45

first world war And on the other side, then you've

49:47

got someone who's a carrier of

49:50

shells who's wearing this

49:54

extraordinary apparatus. slung over

49:56

his shoulders into which

49:58

four large artillery

49:59

shells would be carried. He's like a

50:02

human beast of burden. carrying these

50:04

deadly

50:04

bits of armament. So

50:07

it really is a tribute

50:09

to the effort and endeavor of

50:11

the artillery, which is Holy

50:14

appropriate. Given a, it was

50:16

the largest single unit in in the

50:18

British Army and b,

50:20

artillery, was

50:22

the principal dealer of death in fighting in the first

50:24

world war with at least seventy

50:26

percent of of casualties

50:28

caused in

50:30

that way. And

50:30

that's on both sides. Yeah. Who commissions

50:32

this

50:32

enormous peace then? Well, it's

50:35

commissioned by the world regiment

50:38

of artillery. And if you're lucky

50:40

enough to attend one of their commemoration services on remembrance

50:42

Sunday, as I once was,

50:46

it becomes the centerpiece for full the artillery's

50:48

active tribute to its formal

50:50

comrades from from both world wars

50:53

but originally set up. after

50:55

the first World War and unveiled

50:57

in October nineteen twenty

51:00

five. You described earlier that there's a

51:02

fallen soldier lying on his back as part

51:04

of this struck. What can

51:06

you tell us about that? It's

51:08

a real shocker. This

51:10

is along the north end

51:12

of the monument, so the end that's

51:15

facing onto Hyde Park. And you have the three

51:17

standing figures on the west, south,

51:19

and east sides, on

51:21

the north side, is a

51:24

recumbent corpse, like

51:26

a classic tomb effigy.

51:28

And this is sculpted

51:30

in a very powerful way you

51:32

have the man's overcoat pulled over his face.

51:35

You can peer underneath the collar

51:37

of the overcoat and see part

51:39

of his head. but his

51:41

face has been concealed as

51:44

happens with the dead. And then you have

51:46

a an artillery tin hat,

51:48

a helmet beside

51:50

it. And here is

51:52

a regiment of death.

51:54

And the the description that

51:56

runs around the base beneath

51:58

which the corpse is included,

52:00

is a quotation from Shakespeare's Henry

52:02

the fifth. Here was a royal fellowship

52:06

of death. And when you

52:08

look at

52:08

the end of it, you just see that word

52:10

death and then the corpse

52:11

on top. It's terribly powerful and a

52:13

a frank depiction of the casualties

52:15

that were incurred. Is

52:17

that

52:17

the only war memorial

52:20

in London regardless of whether it's

52:22

been looked after by English heritage

52:24

or not? that actually features someone in a

52:26

death kind of position.

52:28

It's not quite the only one.

52:30

And if

52:32

you go to East London. If you go to Limehouse, where one

52:34

of the tremendous churches by

52:36

Nicholas Hawks Morris and

52:38

Anne's Limehouse,

52:40

There is a monument which consists of a large bronze statue

52:43

of Jesus. But on the

52:45

base of the pedestal is

52:47

a scene of devastation in

52:49

a blasted trench with several

52:52

corpses of lying on the ground and a a

52:54

wounded man trying

52:56

to recover. But they're very

52:58

unusual. People normally wanted to

53:00

concentrate on tributes

53:02

and salutes to heroism, to

53:04

depict the dead on the Walmart World

53:06

was quite strong need. Can I just

53:08

jump in? because the the bronze

53:11

is absolutely stunning and it's the, you know, once

53:13

you've seen it, you'll never forget it. But

53:15

some listeners may people who know

53:17

London may be interested in a couple

53:19

of other bronzes and similar

53:22

themes by Charles

53:24

Seidron Tracker. anyone who has to travel through Paddington Station

53:26

may see the war memorial on

53:28

the platform one of Paddington,

53:30

and that Scott a

53:32

similar first world war serviceman who's reading

53:34

a book. He's quite famous when

53:36

you see him. And actually visitors to

53:38

Elton Palace. You're not that far

53:40

away that Stephen Cottold, who himself had, of course, served

53:42

in the first world war. He had

53:44

a miniature bronze statue

53:46

by Jacker. of

53:48

a serviceman in his study, and that's that's still there now that

53:50

we can see that. So that was the

53:52

Royal Artillery Memorial. Architect was

53:56

Lionel Pearson. And as you've been

53:58

describing, Jeremy, the sculpture part

54:00

was Charles Sergeant Jagger.

54:02

So we've talked about six more

54:04

memorials cared for by English in

54:06

this episode. but how many

54:08

statues and men and monuments does English

54:10

heritage have in its care across

54:13

London?

54:13

Statues and memorials together,

54:16

we have I make it forty seven. These of course are, you

54:18

know, they they commemorate all sorts of

54:20

so people. These are actually not the only

54:22

ones that actually have military themes to them

54:24

that, of course, we

54:26

have stat used to military leaders from other wars. So from the

54:28

nineteenth century, for example, figures like

54:30

the Duke Wellington or Lord

54:32

Napier, and in the

54:34

twentieth century, the second world

54:36

war, we have Omar Montgomery, Alan

54:38

Brook, and Sir Arthur Harris. And

54:40

Florence Nightingale, too, who obviously,

54:42

you know, has as a nurse has,

54:44

you know, some similarities to to nurse Cabelle that we've been talking about,

54:46

and other statues are other

54:50

figures, perhaps some of them more

54:52

important or better known in other countries than

54:54

in ours. So it's a

54:56

whole variety. But these six are particularly worth singling

54:58

out as being, you know, a very

55:00

coherent group, all of them

55:02

made in response to this one

55:04

particular event

55:06

great war and all of them actually made in a relatively short period of

55:08

time in the years immediately after the

55:11

conflict. Obviously, time eats away

55:12

at some of these structures. Can

55:16

you speak to some of the work that goes on every year by

55:18

English heritage to make sure that they

55:21

try and look as new as they did

55:23

when they were first created?

55:26

Well, as I said a little bit earlier, one of the key tasks

55:28

that we would have to do in any event is

55:30

to try to keep them clean, and that's not

55:32

an easy thing to do when

55:36

there's traffic, actually, sometimes passing just within a few

55:38

feet of them. So that's a fairly

55:41

constant operation. Certainly,

55:44

in the

55:44

weeks leading up to remembrance day, things like

55:46

the center staff, you know, and the the royal

55:48

artillery memorial, we will be trying very

55:50

hard to keep them clean.

55:53

It's a

55:53

bit of a challenge though, like for

55:55

example, as I said, when rain

55:57

gets onto Portland stone,

56:00

if it

56:00

doesn't dry off quite quickly, it

56:02

can bring both the grime of of

56:05

traffic pollution and also sometimes

56:07

some of the sort of vegetable

56:09

matter from trees, you know, will will lie on

56:11

there and almost give you a sort of

56:13

green coating. So that's quite difficult to clean off. And

56:15

actually, in recent years, for the center

56:17

of and for the Royal Artillery or

56:19

Memorial, we've actually experimented

56:22

with some quite innovative methods of conservation,

56:24

including using what we call

56:26

a hydrophobic coating, which actually

56:30

stops the rainwater bringing pollution into the pores of the

56:32

stone and keeps the moisture out of

56:34

them. And as I also said, I mean,

56:36

a particularly

56:38

concern to us is things of the long term conservation

56:40

of low relief sculptures such as

56:42

we see on, say, the Belgium War memorial

56:45

or most especially, the fantastic

56:48

low relief sculptures on the Royal Artillery

56:50

Wall Memorial, which is so essential to

56:52

the significance of

56:54

that memorial sometimes we will have actually

56:56

try to slow down the effect of

56:58

erosion on them. Can I just, yeah,

57:01

reinforce

57:01

what Jeremy says?

57:04

the importance and quality of the reliefs on the Royal

57:07

Artillery memorial are impossible

57:10

to overstate. and

57:12

yet every single year they're suffering.

57:14

So I would really

57:16

hope that English heritage can

57:19

go on talking with Westminster

57:21

City Council and try and

57:23

get those trees cut back a

57:25

bit because the shedding of organic

57:27

matter onto that monument is to the

57:30

monument's terminal harm.

57:32

It's a difficult one, isn't it

57:34

as well? I suppose everything kind of

57:37

erodes and erases over

57:40

time. One thing that doesn't, of

57:42

course, as long as we make sure

57:44

that we talk

57:45

about it. It is remembering. It is memory. So

57:47

I suppose, what do these war memorials represent

57:50

in

57:51

today's zeitgeist versus when

57:54

they were created. I suppose they have a different story for

57:57

generations today. Don't they? Well,

57:59

if I could jump in

58:00

first, but I'm sure Roger has thought

58:03

about this too. I mean, I I have to

58:05

put my hand up saying, I I am old

58:07

enough to remember surviving veterans of

58:09

the first world war, the men of the old

58:11

tin hat or moths as used to be

58:14

abbreviated to, still used to come

58:16

to remember in state grade and church

58:18

services when I was a boy. So it's not

58:20

actually that distant And, you

58:22

know, I I have no problem with saying that

58:24

things like, you know, Black Hatter on the

58:26

television and other things actually do keep the

58:28

first world war. in remembrance,

58:30

perhaps more than many other conflicts

58:32

do. But as I said in

58:34

connection with the senator that the

58:36

meanings of these things become much,

58:38

much broader. even when

58:40

the actual institutions that

58:42

commissioned these statues don't exist

58:44

anymore. I think there is enough

58:47

memory of and enough realization that actually

58:50

conflict has never been eradicated from the

58:52

face of the earth. Britain

58:54

is

58:54

actually still

58:56

closely involved in many of these conflicts. And

58:58

I've feeling the heritage feels, and

59:00

I think many other people do feel that

59:04

Actually, these memorials provide an invaluable focus

59:06

for reflection on all

59:08

of those subjects and that actually they

59:10

have some of the most powerful messages

59:13

for the modern world of of

59:16

any of the sites that we look after.

59:18

I agree

59:18

with all of that and their message

59:20

is ultimately one of asking people

59:23

to remember the ghastly price of of modern

59:25

conflict. You haven't got to sign up

59:27

to the agendas of Trumpism,

59:30

patriotism, to find them worthwhile

59:32

to study. They make you think, and

59:34

that's what a monument means. It's an

59:36

appeal to the mind. And I

59:38

I think it's the power of those

59:41

monuments is is borne out

59:43

every remember Sunday when you see

59:45

them as centers of Remembrance Services and people

59:47

get to pay their own tribute. There are also

59:49

amazing works of art. So

59:51

it's such a relief for the citizen

59:53

that they're in the

59:55

best they could have. And I would just

59:58

urge everyone to go and explore them for

1:00:00

themselves and just think of the

1:00:02

stories that

1:00:04

they embody. Well, as we approach, remembrance Sunday

1:00:06

and Armistice Day, perhaps that's something that

1:00:08

listeners might want to do

1:00:10

as they walk across London, perhaps listening

1:00:12

to this

1:00:14

episode. and they can reflect on all those things that

1:00:16

we've just discussed. So thank you

1:00:18

both for taking the time to talk

1:00:20

us through these six Warmorials edifices

1:00:24

that remember the Great War and for

1:00:26

helping in a small part as well, at

1:00:28

least through audio, keeping the

1:00:31

memory of that conflict and all its

1:00:33

lessons alive and in

1:00:34

our thoughts. So thank you both. Thank

1:00:37

you

1:00:37

very much. It's a

1:00:39

pleasure. Thanks so much.

1:00:40

You've been

1:00:46

listening to the

1:00:47

English Heritage podcast. Next

1:00:50

week, we'll be looking at the story of one of America's original stars of

1:00:53

the big screen, Charlie Chaplin, and

1:00:55

how he came to be commemorated

1:00:57

by a blue plaque in

1:01:00

London. He's had a huge impact on whole generations of comedian

1:01:02

sense. It sort of cut path

1:01:04

to Hollywood for many others. So

1:01:06

he was influential

1:01:07

in that sense too. Thanks

1:01:09

for listening. See

1:01:11

you next

1:01:12

time.