0:00

Today on an all-new

0:02

episode of the anneagram

0:04

journey Hey,

0:25

Harry welcome to the US the toilets backed up

0:27

and none of us know how to clean it

0:29

I can't wait cheers to that but first I

0:31

meant to introduce you to a new camper. I'm

0:33

not new this is Natalie Hold

0:36

on. Gabe? Natalie. Hey guys, you

0:38

see kids gender is like pasta.

0:40

No, it's not. There's many different

0:43

shapes and sizes Making it worse.

0:45

What happened Gabe? Um, oh

0:48

god. Coming here was a terrible mistake. Look

0:50

at them They hate you. The camp clearly

0:52

did not read that detailed email from your

0:54

mother. Say something already Please

0:56

call me Natalie now. I wanted you guys

0:59

to hear it from me that I'm transgender

1:01

I use she her pronouns. I'm sure you're

1:03

all totally comfortable with this, right? Now

1:07

I'm sure you all have questions, right

1:09

and without consulting Natalie I'm simply gonna open

1:12

up the floor for a free-for-all like

1:14

a session of Parliament I feel good

1:16

about this and what I'm talking about

1:18

is the pulse of the collective. Oh

1:20

heck Let me just show you how it's done dead. How about

1:22

a little percussion? Be tap.

1:24

Tap. Tap. Tap. Tap. Tap just hi And

1:32

Gary on the kconfidence come come

1:34

on the cancer come come. That's

1:36

Gary Come come with the kid

1:39

Johnindo come come come with you can't drum Gary

1:41

On the kick drum come come editor IXuh

1:44

ping Convention dope in

1:47

the house Come come come come

1:49

with the kick drum. I can't. I'm

1:51

just not really the kid from time to time

1:53

I'd rather be just a listener and enjoy all

1:55

the banging that he's doing and you know Gary.

1:57

That's your prerogative That's your right to listen Do

2:00

you understand both

2:03

and as opposed to either

2:05

or in a way that you

2:07

can articulate? That's

2:11

a spectacular question because I have been a really

2:13

all or nothing person which I think is part

2:15

of the eight as well but I really am

2:18

an all or nothing. You know my therapist is

2:20

always catching me. Okay that's very all or nothing

2:22

thinking. Look at this in a

2:24

different way but I also think you know

2:26

as we were talking when we were getting

2:28

on we were talking about Barbie and one

2:30

of my good friends said I'd love to

2:32

have a conversation with you about Barbie because

2:34

you must have a very unique perspective of

2:36

the movie and of the experience because you

2:38

grew up a science female at birth. You

2:40

have lived through that experience and now you

2:43

walk through the world perceived to be

2:45

a white straight cis man usually. You

2:47

know that I really feel like it

2:49

does give me perspectives that I can

2:52

step into situations that most

2:54

people cannot step into and see both

2:57

sides of the story or the experience.

3:03

The Annie Graham Journey is back. Apologies

3:07

to everyone for the delay. I

3:09

came down with quite the bug but

3:11

we're coming back the right way with

3:13

a phenomenal episode and some exciting

3:15

things to promote. Today's

3:17

guest is New Jersey's own Alex Reagan.

3:20

Annie Graham 8. Alex is the author

3:22

of What Needs to be Said as

3:25

well as an interfaith minister speaker

3:27

and transformative spiritual coach who

3:29

uses his intuitive wisdom to help

3:31

guide people towards their own

3:34

inner knowing. Alex is

3:36

also a member of the 2024 LTM

3:38

Annie Graham cohort and this

3:40

is the second episode of our series that

3:43

will be running all throughout the year

3:45

keeping up with three members of the

3:47

cohort. Two things that we

3:49

got to talk about first before the episode and

3:52

the first is a biggie. 2024

3:55

Annie Graham Boot Camp with the

3:57

Annie Graham Godmother Suzanne Stebel is

3:59

set. and early bird registration

4:01

is now open. This

4:04

year's topic is the anagram and

4:06

stress, loss, and relationship.

4:09

Join LTM for three days this summer

4:11

in Dallas, Texas, Thursday, August

4:14

the 1st through Saturday, August 3rd

4:17

at The Grove. Or if you can't

4:19

join us in Dallas, there is an online

4:21

auction, which is absolutely great, but

4:23

second best to being there in the room

4:25

with everyone. We all

4:27

suffer loss, whether it's a

4:29

job, it's a person, or a relationship,

4:32

and it all affects us differently. Suzanne

4:35

is gonna help us out, especially in dealing

4:37

with how we cope with loss and stress.

4:40

Some of the greatest anagram work we can do

4:42

is around our stress line, and

4:44

you know the greatest way to do that work is

4:47

in community. We are

4:49

also blessed that Courtney Perry of the

4:51

anagram will be leading us

4:53

in a pre-conference workshop again at the Micah

4:55

Center. There will be two

4:57

options for that opportunity as well, one

4:59

on Wednesday night and a second on Thursday

5:01

morning. Her teaching will also

5:04

be tailored, connecting yoga, the

5:06

anagram, and stress. If

5:08

you know someone who attended the 2023 bootcamp, talk

5:11

to them, and they're gonna tell you that this

5:14

is an opportunity you want to be a part

5:16

of if you can. Visit

5:18

the link in the show notes,

5:20

or visit lifeinthetrinityministry.com, or

5:23

the anagramjourney.com, and you'll

5:25

be able to find your way to the event page

5:27

and registration. I hope you'll be able to

5:30

join us for three jam-packed days

5:32

of solitary work that cannot be done

5:34

alone. The second

5:36

announcement is extremely exciting as well. Friend

5:39

of the podcast and author and theologian,

5:42

Tony Jones, will be visiting

5:44

the Micah Center for a live podcast

5:46

with Joe and Suzanne discussing his new

5:48

book, The God of Wild Places, on

5:51

Friday, April 26th. And

5:53

he's bringing his friend, musician Ronnie Fouse,

5:56

to help with the show. You'll find

5:58

the link for this incredible night. music, discussion,

6:00

and fellowship in the show notes

6:03

and please stick around after today's podcast

6:06

to hear more about the God of all places and

6:09

hear some of Ronnie's music. Finally,

6:11

thank you as always for your

6:13

support of life in the Trinity

6:15

Ministry and Joan Suzanne's hard work.

6:18

This podcast, live podcasts,

6:21

bootcamp, cohorts, none

6:24

of these things happen without

6:26

your participation, your generosity, and

6:28

everything you bring as a part of the

6:30

LTM community. So we thank you. And

6:34

now it's time for Alex and Suzanne.

6:41

With permission, I'll

6:43

tell a story about this past

6:46

week and Suzanne and I

6:48

recording around technology that just I

6:50

cried so hard. I think my abs

6:52

are still worked out from

6:54

laughing so hard and it was yesterday.

6:57

Well Alex is gonna be with us for the year so you

6:59

can tell him in person and then we don't have it recorded.

7:02

There you go. You can tell me that week. Alex,

7:04

I'm sorry. I'm working really hard on pronouns

7:06

and I just did that probably

7:08

not well. Okay, great. You're

7:11

good. You're definitely

7:16

the first transgender individual who's been

7:18

on the podcast that we know

7:21

of. Cool. Yeah. And LTM

7:23

is trying to grow and get it right

7:26

and yeah we might slip up

7:28

at times but it's not. It's

7:30

okay. Okay. It happens

7:32

to me. Well and I'm

7:35

so thankful that I get to spend

7:37

a year with you so

7:39

that you can teach me and everybody in

7:42

the room because

7:44

until we all have

7:47

teachers who are gracious we

7:51

are afraid to say

7:53

the wrong thing. We the collective we. Yep.

7:56

So we don't say anything and I think that's

7:58

the wrong thing to do. Yeah.

8:01

Okay. We're

8:03

so short with it with each other and

8:05

everyone, there's no space anymore to just have,

8:07

you know, ask innocent questions and have conversation

8:10

anymore. Everybody just is so nervous to say

8:12

the wrong thing, do the wrong thing, have

8:14

someone jump down their throats. And yeah,

8:17

it's it's yeah, it's a hard, hard

8:19

time right now. But that's one thing

8:21

I've tried to be is just transparent

8:23

and open, you know, especially after my

8:25

book came out, I had so many

8:27

conversations with people about different things. And

8:29

I've tried to just, you know, answer

8:32

questions and be open and ask

8:34

questions of people as well and

8:36

to just have conversations, you know.

8:39

Yeah. Wonderful. I hope

8:41

to talk to you about it. Great. I love

8:43

your books as well. So we are, we're a

8:45

big fan of yours in our household. When

8:48

we heard you on Glenn

8:50

and Doyle's podcast, that was really when we

8:52

dove in with your work. And

8:55

I mean, we've watched almost every video on the

8:57

LTM website. We've gotten friends doing

8:59

it. I mean, we've just really enjoyed your

9:01

work. We've done a lot of different teachers

9:03

and Enneagram stuff, but we really love and

9:05

resonate so much with how you teach it.

9:07

So I'm so excited to be coming next

9:09

week and going on this journey with you

9:11

all. Right. I'll be ready

9:13

for you. I

9:16

just now noticed that Joel has on a Barbie. That

9:19

must be new, but I like it. It

9:22

was a good movie. I was I

9:24

watched it and cried both times I watched it. I

9:28

thought it was very good. And

9:30

I, you know, Joe

9:32

was preparing

9:34

for the priesthood during

9:37

the Barbie doll years. There

9:40

is so much that he missed

9:42

because of the depth

9:44

of study

9:47

they did in spiritual practices that they did.

9:51

They didn't have access to

9:54

free access to television or

9:56

the newspaper or while he was in the Vichit.

10:00

And during

10:02

that time, he didn't come home for nine years.

10:06

So there's just a lot that

10:08

happened culturally that he missed

10:11

all of. So I

10:13

have to school him in a

10:16

way for him to understand that when

10:19

Barbie was released

10:21

and how it affected women

10:24

like me who wanted

10:26

to coach basketball in a man's

10:30

coaching world, even for female players

10:32

and all the things. So

10:34

I was not a Barbie fan and now

10:36

I am. Yeah. Yeah,

10:39

I'm back. Sorry. Yeah. I've

10:41

yet to watch the Barbie movie by myself because

10:45

I've always watched it with other kids because

10:47

our five-year-old loves it so much and they

10:50

all do. And I'm like, but

10:52

I honestly don't know. I

10:55

know I love it and I don't

10:57

know why exactly. If

11:00

that makes sense. I love it. I

11:02

want to know why. I love it so much. I

11:04

love everything about it. I love

11:07

everything about it. You don't

11:10

even know why. I love it. That says

11:12

so much about you, Joel. I love it. I'll

11:16

tell you another thing that came from that

11:18

that I think is really important. And

11:22

that is I being

11:24

in the two, three, four triad

11:27

and because of things, experience

11:30

shame easily. And

11:34

Joe doesn't have much history

11:37

with shame. And

11:39

Joel was really struggling with what that

11:41

meant and how that felt and all

11:44

that. And after

11:46

he saw the Barbie movie, he said, I feel shame

11:48

for the first time. And

11:52

if nothing else comes from that movie, it

11:55

changes the conversation in our

11:58

working partnership and mother-son's. partnership

12:00

and all things. Amazing. One

12:02

of the interviews I saw because my mom

12:05

was about to give me crap about this. Much

12:07

like the Texas Rangers World

12:10

Series win, which I'm still just

12:12

swimming in. Riding high. Yep. Especially

12:15

since the Cowboys lost, I assume.

12:17

I don't, there's no Cowboys pin

12:20

on my backpack there. Okay, good

12:22

deal. But

12:24

with that win and the Barbie movie,

12:26

both that I'm just still

12:28

like, go, I'll rewatch anything that has

12:31

anything to do with either one of

12:33

those. So I'll watch interviews, I'll watch

12:35

highlights, I'll watch clips. And I saw a clip

12:37

yesterday. I'll see if I

12:39

can pull the audio for the, uh, when we release

12:41

this, but it was

12:43

of Margot Robbie and they were

12:45

talking about, and I didn't get to catch it all because

12:47

I was reading the, um, subtitles

12:49

of somewhere where I couldn't do audio. But

12:52

what she was talking about was like the fourth, um,

12:56

fourth graph or fourth something, which was the male

12:58

audience. They're like, how do we get all four

13:00

or something? And then

13:03

what they talked about was, uh, we just all

13:05

need to be comfortable with

13:07

being uncomfortable. And

13:09

that I think is what, I

13:11

think that is what I was feeling. And

13:13

maybe that's how people describe shame is just

13:16

over the healthy way of dealing with shame is being

13:19

comfortable with feeling uncomfortable. But

13:22

that was spot on. Interesting.

13:24

Yeah. How I felt. Fascinating.

13:27

Well, anyways, yeah, we're all, we're off and running

13:29

now. So it's, it's happening. So

13:31

this is the first recording with

13:34

three individuals, um, that

13:37

we're for sure going to do to

13:39

one now, one

13:42

at the end. And I was talking with, uh,

13:44

Suzanne the other day, I was

13:47

like, maybe there's a midway

13:49

point that we do. We record this too.

13:51

You know? So yeah. So with that being

13:53

said, um, Alex, you're our

13:55

first interview for this. Oh,

13:57

and the part of the series being the whole.

14:00

excuse me, three individuals that are

14:02

going into the anagram cohort that the first

14:04

meeting is next week and

14:06

then checking in right now and then checking

14:08

in later and just kind of seeing

14:10

how that your long journey goes. So

14:13

if you want to tell the listeners

14:15

some about yourself and then

14:18

I imagine Suzanne is gonna start talking possibly

14:20

like in your first sentence and

14:24

I'll step out of the way. I'm

14:27

ready. All right. Thank you guys. First of

14:29

all, I'm so excited to be here. I

14:31

love Suzanne. I love your work and I've listened

14:33

to a lot of the podcast episodes as well.

14:36

Joel, I got to work with you when

14:38

you did the three sheets little breakout group

14:40

that was actually really enjoyable and I would

14:43

love to talk to you about that sometime

14:45

because that was life-changing for me actually. So

14:48

I'm Alex Regan. My pronouns are

14:50

he and him. Let's see. I

14:52

am an interfaith minister. I'm

14:54

a coach. I'm an author of the

14:57

book What Needs to be Said. That came out

14:59

last May now with

15:01

Hay House which was very exciting and also one of

15:03

the most terrifying things I've ever done in my life

15:06

and I do coaching.

15:09

I also do some speaking. I do

15:11

preaching. I'm not at any specific church

15:14

or organization. I kind of just drove

15:16

around. I get invited various places to

15:18

come in and preach which is

15:21

great fun to do as well. What else

15:25

to tell you about myself? I live

15:27

in the great state of New Jersey now. I

15:29

have lived all over this country and all different

15:31

in Texas, California, New

15:34

England, Kansas. I've lived all

15:36

over Arizona. I lived all

15:38

over this country and now

15:40

my wife and I are settled in New Jersey

15:43

and we actually love it here. I love

15:45

New Jersey. I've always loved the East Coast

15:48

but my wife was born here so she

15:50

wasn't always super excited to come back home

15:52

again but she's even enjoying that as well

15:54

as we're near her mom. So

15:57

that's great fun. We live with our

15:59

two cats inside. And we have like a

16:01

whole herd of outdoor cats, which is hilarious that have

16:03

taken over our kids play set Like we have a

16:05

little playground in the backyard and they basically just live

16:07

in our kids play set So we have some outdoor

16:09

cats that are fun in attainment And

16:12

yeah, and i'm excited to talk about the enneagram

16:14

I'm excited to join the cohort this year and

16:16

and dive in to a much deeper level of

16:18

it One

16:21

of the things that I am Taken

16:25

with at times when we start

16:27

to do A podcast

16:30

is how comfortable our

16:32

guest is with us

16:34

and in their own skin And

16:38

sometimes people who are more

16:41

introverted which you clearly are not

16:44

people who are uh different

16:47

enneagram numbers than an

16:49

eight by number

16:51

or by Being

16:53

an extrovert or an introvert or somewhere on that

16:56

Continuum, I understand that

16:58

that makes this more

17:00

difficult for some people than others and

17:04

So I ask a different

17:07

level question sometimes then

17:09

i'd like to start with with you And

17:12

so the first question I want to ask that we

17:14

can I think work with for

17:16

the rest of our time together Knowing

17:19

that that's what I want to do

17:21

with this question Um,

17:24

i'm looking at that very

17:26

intriguing cover of your book

17:28

and The title is what needs

17:30

to be said And

17:32

so I would like to know what

17:35

needs to be said I

17:38

feel like it's funny because I feel like that

17:40

changes every day I feel like there's new things

17:42

that need to be said and need to be

17:44

looked at and even since the book has come

17:47

out So much has changed for me. Um, you

17:49

know, I spent so much time focusing on Uh,

17:52

probably the last decade focusing on building

17:54

up a coaching practice Trying

17:56

To get clients trying to build my

17:58

online presence. And the more

18:01

I noticed towards the of this year as

18:03

difficult as it was really be line so

18:05

much with people and troll than all of

18:07

the stuff that really happened online. Part of

18:10

me just actually stepped back and sort of

18:12

polled inside of myself and I actually just

18:14

tired looking more into what I needed to

18:16

do. more inside of me that was internal

18:19

work still as opposed the that work I

18:21

was trying to always do. Allen the World's

18:23

I guess part of work has needed to

18:26

be said to me lately is what else

18:28

do I need to hill. What?

18:30

Else do I need to do work on that

18:32

inside of me? That's

18:34

coming up. And like I said, you

18:36

know, when we were starting a I

18:38

did the three sheets with jaw and

18:41

that literally. I mean that just opened

18:43

me up in this entirely new way.

18:45

I helped me look at things that

18:47

I you know had still been holding

18:49

onto that I didn't believe we're my

18:51

values anymore. It also helped me look

18:53

at the groups that I belong to

18:55

and how sometimes even though I participate

18:57

or belong to a group I don't

18:59

necessarily. You know, Believe all

19:01

of the things that they necessarily believe

19:03

either. So I think in some ways

19:05

I've just been in this really. I've

19:07

used this winter time to really go

19:09

in whenever you know to sort of

19:11

get quiet much as you paint the

19:13

pig pig me as an extrovert that's

19:15

not always the easiest thing or and

19:17

as an age of I will it's

19:19

been pretty loud and pretty you know

19:21

sharing my opinion and well as going

19:23

on. And so this has been a

19:25

real like sort of time where the

19:27

the soil has been very fallow and

19:29

like a cabinet still dive. Deeper and

19:31

go into this. And so I think

19:34

that what needs to be said is

19:36

partly about holding what you think needs

19:38

to be said loosely arm and not

19:40

always feeling like it has to be

19:42

this exact thing and I know the

19:45

exact answer to it. In fact, What's.

19:47

Funny is that as some of the things I

19:50

even wrote in that book which is sort of

19:52

part memoir, part self help. Where.

19:55

things i felt so certain of at the time

19:57

over the last handful of years as i wrote

19:59

it And I still believe them to be

20:01

true, but I'm holding it so much more loosely, I

20:03

guess, is the term that my

20:05

one of my Buddhism teachers taught me in

20:08

seminary, just to sort of not hold it

20:10

as so confined. This is what it is.

20:13

And I remember, you know, just a couple weeks

20:16

back before the end of the year in therapy

20:18

with my therapist, she said, Well, what are you

20:20

certain of? And I said, I'm only just certain

20:22

of a few things. I'm certain of my, my

20:24

wife, and I'm certain of being, you

20:26

know, belonging to her family. And I'm certain that

20:28

I'm supposed to be in New Jersey. And

20:31

that's pretty much that. And I said, Oh, and

20:34

I'm certain I'm supposed to take this Enneagram training.

20:36

And that's about where my certainty ends right now.

20:39

And that's new for me, even as an eight,

20:41

because I usually think I know the answers and

20:43

think I know pretty well, this is how it

20:45

is. So I guess

20:47

that's a big answer to your question. Yeah,

20:50

I was expecting a big answer. And I like it.

20:54

I'm so glad that you're certain that you

20:56

belong in this Enneagram group, because I also

20:58

am certain. And it'll be

21:00

fun for us to look back

21:02

on this conversation about that certainty

21:05

at the end, because then

21:07

we'll know why. You,

21:11

as far as we know, you

21:13

are our first guest on the

21:15

podcast who identifies as

21:17

transgender. That

21:20

I believe is a reality

21:26

that I am going to be able

21:28

to embrace because of your

21:30

willingness to teach

21:32

me as we spend a year together,

21:35

the things I need to be taught and correct me

21:37

when I need to be corrected. And

21:39

I'm actually looking forward to that because there

21:42

is something about you and talking

21:44

with you and reading things. I

21:47

feel safe with you. And

21:49

it's very interesting to me to

21:52

think about, oh

21:54

my gosh, I surely

21:56

hope you feel safe with us.

22:00

And you wouldn't be coming, I suppose, to the

22:02

cohort if you didn't. One

22:04

of the big questions I have for you

22:07

in relationship to identifying

22:09

as transgender is,

22:14

do you understand

22:17

both and as

22:20

opposed to either or in

22:23

a way that you

22:26

can articulate? That's

22:29

a spectacular question because I have been

22:31

a really all-or-nothing person, which I think is

22:33

part of the eight as well, but

22:35

I really am an all-or-nothing. My therapist

22:37

is always catching me, okay, that's very

22:39

all-or-nothing thinking. Look at this

22:41

in a different way. And so

22:44

that's interesting because that is definitely a part

22:46

of my personality, is that very all-or-nothing. But

22:48

I also think, as we were talking when

22:50

we were getting on, we were talking about

22:52

Barbie. And one of my good friends said,

22:54

I'd love to have a conversation with you

22:56

about Barbie because you must have a very

22:58

unique perspective of the movie and of

23:00

the experience because you grew up assigned

23:03

female at birth, you have lived through

23:05

that experience and now you walk

23:07

through the world perceived to be a

23:09

white straight cis man usually. And

23:12

so I have this multiple perspective

23:14

that is actually one of the

23:16

things I find most fascinating about

23:18

myself, if I could say that,

23:20

that I really feel like it

23:22

does give me perspectives that I

23:24

can step into situations that

23:28

most people cannot step into and see both

23:30

sides of the story or the experience. So

23:32

I guess in some weird way that rubs

23:34

into a little bit of the nine wing

23:36

that I might have to. It's one of

23:39

the only areas that I feel like I

23:41

have some of that balance to see both

23:43

perspectives. But I honestly

23:45

think that's become one of the

23:47

things that I cherish about myself

23:49

most is that I can

23:51

see both sides and I can understand where

23:53

I came from, where I'm going.

23:56

And also, for a lot of years,

23:58

I will. I wasn't

24:00

sure I was going to like take testosterone,

24:02

for example. And that's, you know, I've been

24:04

on testosterone now for the last year and

24:06

a couple of months, but

24:09

for a long time, I just kind of was like, I

24:11

don't know if I need that. We're going to just see

24:13

what happens because I kind of like being in that. You

24:15

know, when I came out, I came out as he

24:18

and him because there wasn't even on binary when

24:20

I actually came out that like that wasn't even

24:22

a thing yet. That's even been more recent that

24:25

we've said, you know, people can use

24:27

they and pronouns and things like that. But

24:30

I do find I like to

24:32

be in some balance between

24:35

both spaces. And

24:38

while I feel better saying I identify as

24:40

he and him than someone calling me she,

24:43

like it just feels more true to who

24:45

I am. And I

24:48

also don't necessarily have, you

24:51

know, this space where it's like, oh, I

24:53

need to now just go be with straight

24:55

cis men, you know, like I really actually

24:59

still have a broad spectrum of friends

25:01

in all different spaces and people that

25:03

I connect with and and

25:06

yeah, it's just it's kind of an interesting I

25:08

don't know if that's fully articulated, but it's a

25:10

very interesting space because I can kind of. It

25:14

reminds me of high school when I was

25:16

in high school, I was like in sports

25:18

and everything, but I wasn't necessarily a jock,

25:20

but I wasn't necessarily, you know, I kind

25:22

of had friends in every little group like

25:25

kids who were out back smoking kids who

25:27

were, you know, like I could just weave

25:29

through all of the different groups of kids

25:32

and I had friends in all of those.

25:34

And that's kind of what it's become now

25:36

as my adult self. It's like I can

25:38

weave through all these spaces where

25:40

people can't always go in the

25:42

doorways of, you know, I can kind

25:44

of just like find my

25:47

way through and I have interesting relationships with a

25:49

lot of straight, cis women in

25:51

my life. You know, I have a joke with

25:53

a couple of friends. We're very close. They're very

25:55

close friends. And, you know, we'll be on Zoom

25:57

and I'm yelling. I love you guys. I

26:00

love you, Alex. And we always joke. If your husband

26:02

heard you talking to a guy on Zoom, they're like,

26:04

who are you saying I love you to, but it's

26:06

me. So I have this, like, I'm

26:08

allowed to do that, you know, there's

26:10

a lot of these things I can

26:12

cross these boundaries that we don't always

26:14

necessarily let other people do. So it's

26:16

fascinating, really. Yeah, I

26:18

love that. I love everything you said about

26:20

that. And I think

26:23

there's an opportunity

26:27

for everybody to look

26:29

at where they are both and. Whatever

26:33

that is. Joe,

26:36

for example, is both

26:38

and, an ordained Catholic

26:40

priest and a United Methodist

26:43

pastor. And you don't get rid of

26:45

one when you embrace the other. And

26:48

we are living in such a dualistic

26:50

culture that we,

26:53

I think

26:56

we have to find out how we

26:58

can approach life

27:01

with a both and rather than an either

27:03

or way of seeing. And

27:05

I think transgendered

27:09

folks are perceptually

27:13

able, potentially,

27:16

to teach the rest of us because

27:19

we are assigned

27:21

either or in terms

27:24

of male and female. And I think

27:26

it's great that you're an eight who's done

27:28

so much work because the

27:31

more eights work on themselves,

27:35

the softer they get. And

27:38

there is in your ways of

27:40

talking a softness

27:44

with tons of

27:46

confidence. And

27:49

I would guess that is a byproduct

27:51

of some of the pain that

27:54

you went through to get here where

27:56

you are today. And I

27:59

would also guess. Because the culture and

28:01

these are guesses so you can say yep or

28:03

no you're way off on that Because

28:06

I'll be saying that to you while you're in the cohort I'll

28:09

be saying yeah. No, that's not it. So

28:11

you feel free to say that to me Think

28:16

we Tend

28:18

to feel safer in either

28:22

or conversations and

28:25

I don't think there's much safety there And

28:33

My girls and I are my

28:35

two daughters Joey and Jenny and I Have

28:38

used the language for all

28:40

of their lives the

28:43

three of us are not girly girls and What

28:47

that has taught us is that there

28:50

is this continuum that we all should look

28:52

at in terms of where we

28:55

fall on the cultural

28:57

identity of male and female

29:00

Yeah One

29:02

of Joey's friends in college all of

29:04

her friends most of her friends

29:06

were guys And one

29:08

of them said man if you were just a

29:11

guy I would really want you to be my

29:13

best man at my wedding and

29:17

and it's because of Where

29:20

we fall on the continuum. Yeah,

29:23

and that is a both-and space

29:25

and I

29:28

think it includes less judgment about things. We

29:30

don't know anything about Agree

29:34

I hope that's true. Yeah, I agree.

29:37

Yeah You

29:39

mentioned in some of the

29:42

info you provided the

29:44

breaking the cycle workshop yeah,

29:47

and One I just want

29:49

to bring up because today while we're recording this is

29:51

Russ Hudson birthday, so

29:53

happy birthday Russ Hudson and he

29:55

taught that weekend with Joan

29:58

Suzanne hold that for a second And.

30:00

Then you talked about being

30:03

born a. Socializing.

30:05

As a female, as a two. And.

30:07

A female. Yeah. Can

30:09

you talk some about that journey At

30:12

that? Any rim journey of being born.

30:14

Or. The email. Bit. People. Teaching.

30:17

You how to behave like a to

30:19

and all the way to years and

30:22

years later you know, reset and workshop

30:24

and now where we are today. And.

30:26

Where were you? Added a family? Yeah.

30:29

For sure? Yeah, No, definitely. I mean as

30:31

a kid you know my mom is a

30:33

very sort of like you know, a church

30:35

going to. You know, just she's always done

30:37

that. I mean, I know it and then

30:39

understand. She has always done author gelled. She's

30:41

always done like let me or you need

30:43

cookies, you need more you know, like whatever

30:45

the thing is I'm in. My parents have

30:47

taken in dozens and dozens of people into

30:49

a spare bedroom in their house over the

30:51

years because someone at church got divorced and

30:53

then they're on this. They don't have a

30:55

place as they for three weeks ago. I

30:58

mean, my parents have just. Gone above

31:00

and beyond for every one they

31:02

come across in their communities and

31:04

beyond, I mean, my mom is

31:06

I'm sorry to interrupt. Ago. I got

31:09

it. Know now what Ambers deeds at? I

31:11

know that your gently walking through life. wondering.

31:14

About numbers of other people. Yeah,

31:16

what number did think say eater? I

31:19

think my mom is definitely a to meet

31:21

her motivation seem to be love. I think

31:23

she's obviously seeking love from god and that's

31:25

how it translates as like i'll be all

31:27

this forever one else god will love me

31:29

that and you know kind of thing. I

31:31

think my dad my be an aid I

31:33

think actually my dad and my brother eight

31:35

so I think all three of us are

31:37

and eight and she's a to which I

31:39

think could be interesting. I mean I've been

31:41

really plan with this trying to figure out

31:43

but my brother could be a seven. There's

31:45

kind of as borderline back and forth between

31:47

know the my head. But that's

31:49

my guess is that my dad. Isn't A

31:52

and my Mom as a to. An

31:54

Ama. Start praying for your mom right

31:56

now. Is

31:59

increasing. human in her life either

32:01

needs something from her or is an

32:03

aggressive person. Exactly. Tell

32:06

her I've got her covered. What's her name?

32:09

Judy. Tell Judy I'm

32:11

on it because I can feel

32:13

her face and it

32:16

makes me literally have

32:18

two bumps. Yep. Yep.

32:21

Yeah. And she's tender and sensitive and the

32:23

three of us are just kind of always

32:25

you know I mean I can definitely go

32:28

into my two and the more work I've

32:30

done I go into that a lot but

32:32

we were rough and tumble kind of abrasive

32:34

you know a pretty loud and you know

32:36

there's a lot of anger a lot of

32:39

like throwing of things and my

32:41

poor mom I mean one day I remember in high

32:43

school even she finally just like that's it with the

32:45

two of you she goes I'm leaving she

32:48

like went out and got them in the

32:50

minivan and she drove away as she goes

32:52

out the window she goes I don't care if

32:54

you two kill one another and I'm screaming like

32:56

don't leave me with him he will kill

32:58

me you know and she was done and

33:00

she left for about three hours I

33:02

hope she went and you know saw

33:04

a movie or went to the library

33:06

or did something fun but yeah she

33:08

bless her heart because it was quite

33:10

a quite a journey with us to rambunctious

33:12

crazy kids so yeah. Good for her good

33:15

for her for saying you do whatever

33:17

you want to to each other while I'm gone I'm

33:19

leaving. Yep for sure. So

33:21

yeah I was really raised with

33:23

that sort of mindset and especially

33:26

being assigned female at birth and

33:28

them all very much assuming that's

33:30

who I was even though

33:32

I know I knew at a pretty young age

33:34

that I was pretty clear they were wrong at

33:37

probably about six so you know

33:40

that two energy was really built

33:42

into me that I mean we could talk

33:44

about that again back to Barbie you know

33:46

we're taught to sit and be quiet and

33:49

you know don't don't make

33:51

inroads don't like make a scene don't you know

33:53

just all those things and then how can you

33:55

basically I think tied in with the church was

33:57

really that how can you be a servant. You

34:00

know, how can you help

34:02

other people put yourself last? It's

34:04

not even second, right? You're like

34:06

kind of coming in last from

34:08

that sort of really unhealthy to

34:11

perspective. And so that's

34:13

really like how I was raised. And

34:18

it never quite resonated because in

34:20

every space I stepped into, I always

34:22

just sort of, if there was ever

34:24

a vacuum of leadership, I stepped into

34:26

it, you know, sort of inadvertently. And

34:29

nobody liked that, you know, as the

34:31

assigned female at birth, everyone called me

34:33

a BITC8, you know, that was the

34:35

energy that I got treated as, like

34:37

I was always pushed out

34:39

of authority, like they didn't want me,

34:41

even though people would follow me naturally.

34:43

And a lot of that energy happened.

34:45

So I had

34:47

a lot of abrasive energy with pretty

34:49

much every authority figure in my

34:52

entire childhood. I

34:54

was just looking at that in some

34:57

of the notes that we have. And one

34:59

of the things that I'm going to try to ask,

35:03

I'm so desperately want to

35:05

ask this right, because I'm dying to know

35:08

the answer. Go for it. All

35:10

right, I'm going to go for it. If

35:13

you were seen as a BITC8

35:18

when you were living into your

35:21

assignment at birth as a female,

35:25

is that changed now

35:27

that you're

35:30

living in the world as a male?

35:33

Is it like this behavior wasn't

35:36

okay when I was assigned

35:38

at birth female? And over here,

35:40

now that I'm not living

35:43

into that role, but being

35:45

truer to myself, do

35:47

people still have

35:49

that pushback against your behavior? So

35:53

here's the weird line where that depends. One,

35:55

if people knew me before I transitioned,

35:58

so... at oftentimes

36:00

that like say my work where I

36:02

consult, they knew me before. So I

36:05

still get that, you know, you're being

36:07

too bossy quit stepping in. This isn't

36:09

your place, but in spaces

36:11

where people didn't know me before, it's definitely perceived

36:13

as different. A lot of times I've seen is

36:15

just, Oh, this person seems to know what they're

36:17

talking about. Like, let's just go with this. This

36:20

seems like a great idea. They're very confident. We'll

36:22

go with it. Um, so it

36:24

definitely depends on the environment and

36:27

what people know about me and my past.

36:29

And if they knew me before,

36:31

it's not so much if they just

36:33

know that I'm trans, um, you

36:36

know, like in seminary at a lot

36:38

of situations and instances where a group

36:40

of people would be like, Oh yeah,

36:43

I respect that and see that and they didn't get

36:45

put off by it. But then some of

36:47

them still did get put up. So it,

36:50

there is this interesting line that happens that

36:52

sort of depends on how people are

36:55

seeing me, you know, societally or, or if

36:57

they knew me before, et cetera. So it's

36:59

kind of fascinating. But run of the mill,

37:02

if I'm out in public or whatever in

37:04

spaces, I'm definitely more just seen as, Oh,

37:06

that's just a white privileged guy. We'll just

37:08

go with what are you saying? You know,

37:11

kind of because that's just what happens in

37:13

society. That is fascinating to me.

37:16

Like, yeah, I used to be a bitch, but

37:18

now I'm just really smart and see the world

37:20

correctly and can lead people. Yep.

37:22

Yep. That is so rich.

37:25

Yeah. I guess also I was in state.

37:27

So I started doing Enneagram testing and I

37:29

kept getting a two and then sometimes I

37:31

would get a six and then once I

37:33

got a four and so I went through

37:35

this whole thing of, am I any of

37:37

these? And then when I started taking more

37:39

classes with people saying the tests are not

37:41

always the most accurate way to get the

37:43

information, that's when I started

37:46

getting like, Oh, maybe this resonates with

37:48

me, this resonates. And then

37:50

the fine thing that resonated the most was

37:52

when you mentioned Suzanne and one of your

37:54

other things that Richard Rohr had said something

37:56

like, you know, you'll likely find your number

37:58

and you'll be like, like I didn't want

38:00

that to be my number. And

38:03

you always, I've heard you say, except for eight,

38:05

usually they're pretty happy about the number. The

38:07

irony is I never even listened to the eight

38:09

number. There was something about me. It was like,

38:11

everyone starts with eight. And I just feel like, that's

38:13

not me, that's not me. And then finally one day

38:15

my wife was like, I

38:18

think that you're an eight and we have

38:20

been totally wrong about all this. And so

38:22

then we started looking at it more deeply

38:24

and that's when it was kind of this,

38:26

aha. And I'll share this

38:28

one funny thing with you. So we

38:31

joke out in public that I have a consulting

38:33

company and we joke that my

38:35

consulting company is not just for the normal consulting

38:37

idea, but it's how people should drive

38:40

in a roundabout where people

38:42

should park their car and how they should,

38:44

they're not properly in the space, anything

38:46

where they should put their trash cans on the

38:49

curb. And so we have this long litany of

38:51

this list that goes on that it's consulting LLC.

38:54

And then we list all of these extra things

38:56

because I'm always pointing out, someone

38:58

should have done it this other way. And she'll say,

39:00

oh, I guess they didn't ask you, how

39:02

they should have done it. That's great.

39:05

That's great, I'm glad you have her. Yeah.

39:07

Keep you in check. Always, always,

39:10

yep. You could kind of get out

39:12

on the edge, I think. That's right.

39:17

I have another question that I wrote down. Let

39:19

me see if I can find it. Well,

39:21

she's looking when you brought up the test. Yeah,

39:24

I don't know why, I've never thought

39:26

about this before in relation to the

39:28

anti-gram test. But a long

39:31

time ago, probably like 18 years ago at

39:34

this point, I was applying to work

39:36

at a restaurant and they gave,

39:38

aside from like how confident you

39:41

are, can you do simple math, that kind of

39:43

stuff. Also some sort of

39:45

personality test. And my buddy worked there and they liked him

39:47

and he was trying to give me the job. And

39:50

I quote unquote failed the

39:52

test every single time. Like

39:55

this personality test to get this job.

40:00

You know, competency test, ACE-IT,

40:02

you know, application, here it is. But then this other

40:04

thing, and each time, so

40:07

I think the first time I tried

40:09

to answer how a restaurant would

40:11

want you to answer things. Yep. And

40:13

that didn't work. And I was like, all right, I'm

40:16

just gonna be brutally honest here then and try number

40:18

two. So really honest, didn't

40:20

go to work either. And

40:22

then I tried the hybrid one of, all

40:25

right, I'll, you know, I'll be honest

40:27

about some things and then try to find the middle

40:29

balance. And that didn't work. I was like, all right,

40:31

man, I don't want the job that bad. I forget

40:33

it. Yeah. I relate to that.

40:36

I wonder some people when they're taking the anagram

40:38

test and stuff comes back, you're like, that doesn't,

40:41

I feel like I failed this test somehow because that's

40:43

not me. Yeah. Yeah.

40:46

And that especially happens interestingly enough when somebody

40:48

has told you what your number is. And

40:52

then you take the test and it's not what

40:55

some random person told you. Yeah, try again. What

40:57

number you are. And so you try again

40:59

and you don't get what you got the first time. And

41:02

then you just don't know who you are. Totally.

41:05

And that whole motivation bit, I mean, when

41:07

I started listening to you more and it

41:09

was like, what's your motivation under it? That's

41:11

what really started to get me into different

41:13

space because the whole motivation

41:15

of love under two, that's not what

41:17

was missing for me as a child.

41:20

That's not what I was seeking. I was

41:22

surrounded by love and care and how can

41:24

we help this and let's go help your

41:26

neighbor. And like that wasn't what like, sure,

41:29

later that became something that I was like

41:31

looking for because it did shift when I

41:33

came out, but that's not what was

41:35

different for me. What was hard for me

41:37

was the vulnerability because I couldn't share with

41:39

them my real feelings or what was going

41:41

on or when I felt weak or like

41:43

I needed help. It was very much, especially

41:46

for my older brother, fuck up, like no

41:48

crying, you know, there's no crying in baseball,

41:50

you know, kind of energy. And

41:53

so that was interesting as I started to look

41:55

at the motivations and that was like a lot

41:57

of light bulbs going on for sure. Okay,

42:01

I need you to tell me how to pronounce

42:04

S-H-A-M-A-N-I-C. Shamanic.

42:08

Okay, that's what I was going to say. Yes.

42:11

But I just don't want to butcher that because it

42:14

is important to me. Yes.

42:17

So you say, I practice shamanic

42:19

work and meditation as well as

42:21

a mishmash of my own personal

42:24

practices. Hmm. Joe

42:27

and I are and have

42:29

been very

42:31

taken with First

42:34

American spirituality or Native American

42:36

spirituality if people don't yet

42:39

reference that as First Americans. And

42:44

Joe has read and read

42:47

because he's so drawn to

42:51

the culture and the

42:53

spirituality of the culture and

42:55

the faith of the culture, all of

42:57

those things. So I would love to

42:59

hear you talk about your

43:01

practice with these spiritual disciplines

43:05

and your mishmash. And

43:08

if we had had this conversation before

43:10

you knew that you were an eight,

43:15

based on the amount of energy that you

43:17

have in a day to

43:20

see to and be present for

43:22

the things you're doing in the

43:24

world, I would

43:26

have said there is no way you're a two because

43:30

you wouldn't be able to do

43:33

all the things you're doing and carry

43:35

other people's skills. So

43:37

I love

43:42

that you found the space where you are.

43:44

I love that we get to talk about

43:47

that and the

43:49

difference in your assigned gender at birth and who

43:51

you are now. I love that we get to

43:53

do that also with, and I thought it was

43:55

a two, and I know I'm an eight. Yeah,

44:00

I love all of it. So

44:03

talk to me about those spiritual practices. Yeah,

44:05

so the shamanism I got into right

44:08

after I got sober back in because

44:10

we're about to hit 11 years

44:13

next Friday while we're in LTM will

44:15

be my 11 year sobriety date. Let's

44:18

remember to celebrate while you're here. Okay, we'll do.

44:22

Yeah, I got sober, like within

44:24

the next week and a half,

44:26

I was like, I need something. I don't know. I don't care

44:28

if it's even church. And there was part of me was like,

44:30

I swore I'd never return to a church, you know, at

44:33

that time still. And so I looked

44:35

up online, I found this little spiritual

44:38

center sort of near me, I walked

44:40

in, I met the little Reverend afterwards,

44:42

we talked, she said, Hey, I think,

44:44

you know, we should talk like, like,

44:47

let's do some sort of spiritual counseling, come in,

44:49

I'll help you through this, because I was just

44:52

a mess, you know, like a week and a

44:54

half. So we're trying to figure out what next.

44:56

And she recommended that I see her friend who

44:58

does shamanic work. And I was like, Okay, I

45:00

don't totally know what that is. But I'll do

45:02

anything at this point. You know, I just knew

45:05

I needed help. And so I called

45:07

her up, I got an appointment with her.

45:09

And we started doing this work that was

45:11

some sort of hybrid mix between sort of

45:14

talk therapy in a way. And then the

45:17

shamanic work that she did. So again,

45:20

shamanism is such a broad thing, like

45:22

all the, you know, Native American, First

45:24

American, South American, Celtic, I mean, it's

45:26

in most, most, most

45:29

cultures throughout history have had some form

45:31

of shamans and shamanism. So

45:34

I try to speak broadly about it, because

45:36

I really just do my focus version of

45:38

it, not, you know, like, this is what

45:40

it is as a whole. So what

45:43

her work was, we would do some drumming, which

45:45

was really amazing, because it would be, you know,

45:47

you'd be laying on the bed, and she would

45:49

be drumming, you know, like, two inches from your

45:52

head, and it was just the most, you

45:54

just would go into these meditative spaces that

45:56

were just that I've never had

45:58

with just regular meditative. music or things

46:01

like that. Just amazing. And

46:03

then, you know, she'd sit down and I'd

46:05

keep my eyes closed and she would begin

46:07

to ask me questions. And

46:10

through that process, you know, as you'll read

46:12

in my book, we went back through a

46:14

lot of my childhood trauma spaces of things

46:16

that had happened. And we

46:18

did it through what's basically called

46:20

a shamanic journey, which is basically

46:22

like a meditative visualization, you're basically

46:25

just visualizing like, okay, I returned

46:27

to the, you know, the six

46:29

year old me who's like playing

46:31

in the front yard where my mom was screaming

46:33

at me for running around in the sprinkler without

46:35

a shirt on, you know, and then we kind

46:37

of like do some work within that space. Well,

46:39

what could have happened differently? Or, you know, like,

46:41

let's take your adult self in and talk to

46:43

the little version you, you know, so it's a,

46:45

it's similar to a lot of different types of,

46:48

of therapeutic things in that way.

46:50

So I started doing that work

46:53

very frequently. And I mean, we went,

46:55

I went weekly for a while. And

46:58

then over time, go ahead. Before you

47:00

leave, well, before you leave drumming. Yes. Oh

47:03

my people who

47:05

have never experienced drumming

47:08

are missing a lot. Agreed.

47:11

Joe was with

47:14

Richard Rohr in some settings where they

47:17

were all drumming. Yeah. I

47:20

think we tried every drum in

47:23

Santa Fe to find the

47:25

right drum for Joe. Yeah.

47:27

And he did some drumming the

47:29

other day for the first time

47:31

in a long time. And I

47:33

thought that that takes

47:36

me somewhere quiet and

47:39

safe. Yeah. It's

47:41

fascinating. It is

47:43

spectacular. So anybody who doesn't know

47:45

about that, lean

47:47

in because it's really a thing. Yeah.

47:50

And you can, I mean, even there are great

47:52

soundtracks you can listen to on YouTube or whether

47:54

you can buy on the iTunes or whatever. And

47:57

I mean, but if you can do it in

47:59

person with someone, drum. I mean, it's,

48:01

it's spectacular. And if

48:03

someone will do the drumming for you, it even

48:05

I mean, you can do the drumming and that's

48:07

great. And you get, but if someone else is

48:09

doing it, and you just get to sink into

48:12

it, whoo, you know, like it's spectacular. So yeah,

48:15

that began this huge new sort

48:18

of spiritual journey for me where I

48:20

just started to go back in time

48:22

through all of my childhood things. I

48:25

started to go through to past life

48:27

things and really open up like, Oh,

48:29

this, why couldn't this be

48:31

real, you know, it really just opened up my

48:34

mind and my whole soul and self in such

48:36

a new way. And then

48:38

after a few years of that, I asked her, how

48:40

can I learn to do this, to do this with

48:42

other people. And so I went through a training with

48:44

her to learn

48:46

to do that and hold the space with other

48:48

people. And then, you know, after

48:50

that, I started working with clients and people with

48:52

it, but I've always kept it up as this

48:55

spiritual practice of my own. And whenever

48:57

I'm in a space of trying to

48:59

figure out what's next, where should I

49:02

go? What's going on? You

49:04

know, I often return to that space

49:07

and just, you know, begin to ask questions,

49:09

you know, get into the meditative state and

49:11

start to ask questions, you know, what's next?

49:13

Am I on the right path where, you

49:16

know, whatever the things are, and that's just

49:18

always been something. It's been a

49:20

way to God for me because I

49:22

think, you know, maybe it is part of the

49:24

eight energy. I don't know, but like that quietness

49:26

has always been terribly hard for me. It's

49:29

been so hard to just sit down

49:31

and be with myself. I

49:34

did a year of meditation and most of the

49:36

days was a journey that I did. And that

49:39

helped me if I just sit and try to

49:41

just in silence with no words, no music, no

49:43

anything, it doesn't always, I can't

49:46

always get there. But for some reason, this

49:48

has always been a space since

49:51

I started that back in 2013 that I can access

49:55

and go to. And it's been,

49:57

yeah, it's been a lifesaver

49:59

for me. In so many ways, it's

50:01

just helped me through I was

50:04

just thinking about that for numbers who have

50:06

a hard time Settling

50:09

down so that they can do a centering

50:12

prayer practice We

50:15

often suggest that they use

50:17

prayer beads and we

50:19

Joe created prayer beads for LTM that

50:22

are based on the fruits of the spirit and

50:25

and they're very effective and I

50:29

have suggested we have suggested that people

50:31

could Listen to

50:33

music. We've never suggested Drumming

50:37

and we will from this

50:40

moment forward. I can hardly wait to go in

50:42

the other room and talk to him about it I

50:44

love it. Well, I love time. I'll have to

50:46

bring a drum down there. They're gonna bring it on

50:48

the plane And they let you bring

50:51

your drum on the plane. Joe will bring his okay,

50:53

so you bring it like I'm you

50:55

bring it Okay, oh

50:59

and I will go somewhere. Well, you'll

51:01

go and be glad I went and

51:03

ate to come home Always

51:06

like oh, we got to go back

51:08

again to this place. Okay.

51:11

All right. All right and your mishmash The

51:15

mishmash I guess is just some form of

51:17

I have loved the centering prayer that since

51:19

I've been you know Trying to like that

51:22

sort of idea of welcoming things has actually

51:24

been helpful for me even if

51:26

I can't get through the whole thing and

51:28

just sitting in the quiet but just actually

51:31

Welcoming like using that language to

51:33

say okay, man. I'm in tremendous

51:35

pain tonight I'm thinking it shouldn't

51:37

be this way that's not getting

51:40

me anywhere What if

51:42

I welcome that in, you know really shifting

51:44

that mindset? So that has been helpful to

51:46

me Also, you

51:48

know, sometimes I will do you

51:51

know, like audio somebody's audio recorded

51:53

meditations or things like that I've

51:55

also done some of the hypnosis

51:57

type stuff tapping, you know kind

52:00

of just it's like whatever feels like in

52:02

the moment, I have to really just

52:04

do what feels like it'll resonate because

52:06

if I, I'm not very good with

52:10

my one of my seminary deans always

52:12

used to say try using the word devotion

52:14

instead, you know, because devotion tends to work

52:16

a little bit better for me because I

52:18

don't do well with like, this is a

52:20

scheduled thing. And this is like, it has

52:22

to be done. And there's a pattern we

52:24

have to get to. It's

52:27

like my body needs to just be like,

52:29

this feels good right now, you know, and

52:31

like, I don't know how I feel tomorrow

52:33

at 8am. So I'm not one of those

52:35

people who like has it all written out

52:37

on a schedule and says like, okay, at

52:39

8am every morning, I meditate. So

52:42

that's been an interesting process for me. So

52:44

yeah, it's just kind of a hodgepodge to

52:47

to rebellious to have somebody tie

52:49

you to that. However, our oldest

52:51

daughter has started every

52:53

morning, not at 8am necessarily,

52:56

not at any given time, but she

52:58

does sit every morning. And it's been

53:01

really pretty helpful to her.

53:04

So, you know, give

53:06

yourself some space in in the space.

53:09

Yeah, and see how you do. Yeah.

53:13

I have a closing question, and I want

53:16

to remember Joel to ask it to all

53:18

three. And

53:20

that is, what are

53:23

your expectations, both

53:26

for yourself and as

53:28

a participant for

53:30

the group for this

53:32

cohort? Good

53:35

question. Well, I think this

53:37

is a couple fold thing for me. I

53:39

think there's a some multi layers to it.

53:41

One, I found it, you know, not at

53:43

all. When you get

53:45

to know me more, you'll see my life happens in

53:47

cycles, like I always end up coming back around, it's

53:50

time to now heal this at a different space. And

53:52

so it was almost hilarious to me that

53:54

I was like, of course, the the Enneagram

53:56

person who resonates with me the most happens

53:59

to work out. of a church and her

54:01

husband's a priest and all, you know, like that

54:03

I've chuckled at that because I was like, of

54:05

course, because now I have to enter back into

54:07

that space. But from here and

54:10

through the Enneagram lens, which, you know,

54:12

even churches are like, are responding to

54:14

that now, like there is a broad

54:16

it kind of overlaps to secular and

54:18

church, which doesn't always happen. So

54:20

I think that's part of it. I think it's

54:23

like, this makes sense that this is a great

54:25

space to enter back into. There's probably some healing

54:27

left to be done for me to walk

54:30

back into that type of community, because

54:33

I haven't, I have returned some,

54:35

but it's usually as like a guest preacher

54:37

or things like that. So I think there's

54:39

something to that. Because even just being in

54:41

some of the LTM groups that I've been

54:43

in, it's mostly people who are

54:46

Christian, you know, happens to be the

54:48

overlap. So I think there's something to

54:50

that. I also think this is

54:52

the first I mean, since I started coaching

54:54

and doing this stuff, I mean, I've taken

54:57

training after training of the Schmonic training of

54:59

the different people I've taken other Enneagram classes, I've,

55:01

I've gone to seminary, I've gone to all these

55:03

different things. And it always was

55:05

for that external work, right? Or it was

55:07

always for like, how can I just

55:10

this out in the world, you know, kind of thing. And

55:12

this, there was this moment when I told my wife,

55:14

I said, I'm gonna apply this, I mean, I don't

55:16

know, I'll get in, I know, they get a lot

55:19

of applicants, but I'm gonna apply, I said, and you

55:21

know why I'm doing it? This is for me. This

55:24

is like for my like, I was saying at

55:26

the very beginning, right now, I'm in this place,

55:28

what else do I need to heal for me,

55:30

I'm more, I'm less focused out there and on

55:32

the work I need to do to help the

55:34

world. And I'm more focused on

55:37

helping and healing myself. And I've

55:39

just seen the Enneagram make, I mean, even

55:41

in my relationship with my wife, I mean,

55:43

since we started doing this more seriously, and

55:45

really doing the work and studying it, our

55:47

relationship has changed dramatically. You know, and I've

55:49

worked with Dr. Deborah Egerton too, and she

55:51

always tells me, you know, we, my husband

55:54

and I have a before Enneagram and an

55:56

after Enneagram, it's a different relationship. And we

55:58

have noticed that in our. lives too.

56:01

And so that's part of it. I think is that I

56:03

just want to keep doing the work. That's

56:07

sort of like what I always fall back to

56:09

is how can I better myself? How can I

56:11

heal more? How can I, you know,

56:13

do this more? Because that's how I know that

56:16

the outer world is actually

56:18

getting better. Because my relationships

56:20

outside of me change. And

56:23

I know they're not doing work. Like I

56:25

don't mean that mean but I know people

56:27

offhand I can name who I know they're

56:29

not in therapy. I know they've never done

56:31

any self-help or self-development work. But our relationship

56:34

has completely changed. And I know that solely

56:36

because I'm healing whatever inside

56:38

of me that needed healing. And so

56:40

I think that's part of

56:42

my goal too is just to continue

56:44

to heal that space. Yeah,

56:47

and I just I hope

56:49

that I also can be a bridge to

56:52

what we talked about half of this episode, which is

56:54

about the church and understanding trans

56:56

people and this fear around it and how

56:58

we can bridge some of those gaps. Because

57:01

I think that's important. And there

57:05

aren't a lot of spaces I would walk

57:07

into still in the church that I would

57:09

necessarily, there are specific churches I would walk

57:11

into and still do that at, you know,

57:13

but it's not something I would, you know,

57:15

try to go into say my parents church

57:17

and try to do, you

57:19

know, and so I have

57:21

felt welcome just through the language you've used

57:24

and the way that you've talked so openly

57:26

about, you know, being supportive of LGBTQ folks

57:28

and all and your own kid and all

57:30

that stuff. And so that made me feel

57:33

like, Oh, this is okay. This is a

57:35

space I can step into. If it helps

57:38

you with the priest

57:42

turned United Methodist pastor, he

57:45

was born in the Bronx. Love it.

57:47

So you're going to be able to connect right

57:49

there in terms of the part of the country that

57:52

is home or feels like home.

57:54

I would say. Yes, it does. I'll bring my

57:56

Yankees hat then you tell him. I

57:58

will tell him and you We

58:00

don't care about any of that. Joel

58:03

might cry a little bit. We'll be okay.

58:07

Well, yeah, the drum first. Drum

58:10

first. I'm

58:12

going to really hold you to that. Okay.

58:16

Maybe we cut this out. I don't know. But

58:18

I was thinking about it. Do

58:20

you think raised

58:22

female, too? Do you think

58:25

that the fact that anagram

58:27

2 and anagram 8 shares

58:29

a line, it made

58:31

that a little bit easier to navigate? And

58:35

as opposed to if it had been, if... Alright,

58:38

so if we're socializing little

58:41

Alex to be a 2, but

58:43

in Alex's truth is a 9 or

58:45

a 6 or a 7 or something, that

58:48

would have been a more complicated development.

58:51

Does that make sense? That

58:53

might be a crap question. It's just been on

58:55

my mind since we talked about it. I

58:58

think, I mean, your mom's shaking her head yes,

59:00

so that's my first instinct to say yes,

59:02

because I definitely have... I

59:05

listen to a lot of 8s who don't always have

59:07

as easy a time going into the 2, but I

59:09

think I have an easier time going to the 2

59:11

because I was raised in that very 2 environment. And

59:13

I think it was like my mom was trying to

59:16

raise me with her and my dad and my brother

59:18

were the 8s. And I think it was

59:20

like that, but I just was always like, I'm over here, I

59:22

think, you know, like kind of thing. And

59:25

that was sort of the battle my mom and I always were having, right? Like,

59:27

you should put these dresses on. And I was like,

59:30

I'm over here, I don't want to wear that, you

59:32

know? So I think that is actually

59:34

part of the bigger thing that what they

59:36

thought I was, and maybe this

59:38

goes to who we think everyone is, you

59:40

know, right? We always sort of assign people

59:42

as this is what you are based on

59:45

just my interaction with you or what makes

59:47

me feel comfortable or whatever the things are.

59:50

And it's just like the curiosity to say,

59:52

oh, well, I don't know that I am

59:54

that. And having that space, I think is

59:56

actually what we could all use a little

59:59

more of, right? right? It's just the

1:00:01

curiosity behind what would this look like?

1:00:03

And like back to your first,

1:00:05

is on the end or, you know, that it's

1:00:07

not, it's not just this

1:00:10

or that it's and both or, you

1:00:12

know, it's and both. And I think

1:00:14

that's what we're missing societally right now.

1:00:16

Like that's why we're in this turmoil

1:00:19

that we're in is because we've lost

1:00:21

complete site. You know,

1:00:23

we could all use a little more nine energy, right?

1:00:25

As I can see both sides of the picture. And

1:00:28

I think that's, you know, that's taken

1:00:30

me a lot of years to build

1:00:32

that into my own self. Like

1:00:34

I said, I've been very sure of what

1:00:36

all the answers are. And I've loved this

1:00:40

liminal space that I have been in in the

1:00:42

last even just couple of weeks of like, I'm

1:00:44

only sure of a few things. And

1:00:46

that's it. And I'm going to just sit in

1:00:48

this. I've spent my whole life trying

1:00:51

to that's why I like the five eight two

1:00:53

because you guys talk a lot about liminal space

1:00:55

and I have been in a hurry to get

1:00:57

the hell out of liminal space. Right? Like I

1:00:59

practically try to jump through a doorway, you know,

1:01:02

to get through like hell no, don't leave me

1:01:04

in between here. And

1:01:06

now for the first time ever, I'm like,

1:01:08

Oh, this is not so bad to

1:01:10

be in this like, it's kind of

1:01:12

warm. It's kind of like, Ooh,

1:01:14

what's next? I don't know. Like that's okay.

1:01:17

And it's just like, it's sort of the

1:01:19

first time ever in my life that I've

1:01:21

been in that place. And so that also

1:01:23

feels perfect timing for next week, you know,

1:01:26

to jump into then it's like, Oh, this

1:01:28

is all the, the, the

1:01:30

soil is fertile and like ready to

1:01:32

like, you know, to bloom and blossom

1:01:34

and plant more things too. You know,

1:01:36

so did we get earlier in the

1:01:38

conversation and I'm sorry if I missed it, your

1:01:41

wife's Enneagram number. I did.

1:01:43

We did not. Um, her name is Doris and

1:01:45

her Enneagram is four. Um,

1:01:48

and so she is a big

1:01:50

artist and feels the world so

1:01:52

deeply and has spent a tremendous

1:01:54

amount of time feeling not understood

1:01:56

or seen or heard. Um, and

1:01:58

so that she's

1:02:01

also an immigrant. So she grew up

1:02:03

with immigrant parents or her parents and

1:02:05

immigrants that spoke a different language. So

1:02:07

she spent her whole childhood feeling like

1:02:10

she wasn't understood. And so

1:02:12

that's been so helpful for her to to

1:02:14

really go into her number and understand it

1:02:16

more and things are making sense for her

1:02:18

that she's just like, Oh, that's why I

1:02:20

didn't, you know, do this. Or that's why

1:02:23

this has been such a struggle. And

1:02:25

it's kind of fascinating to how the

1:02:27

Enneagram plays a part in, like,

1:02:30

it's like the chicken or the egg, you know,

1:02:32

which can't because it's like she's perfectly set up

1:02:34

to be a four just like from her childhood

1:02:36

and all the experience. And it's that's what she

1:02:38

is. And it's like, you know, chicken or egg,

1:02:41

which came first, and just kind of it's such

1:02:43

a beautiful thing to look at and try to,

1:02:45

you know, figure out. So it's

1:02:48

the last few things I think I have to say right

1:02:51

now are that I

1:02:54

think we all need to be more curious

1:02:56

about so many things. The

1:02:59

idea that we have the answers

1:03:02

and that we don't have questions is just

1:03:04

dangerous. Yeah, great. Because

1:03:06

I'm pretty sure we need to be

1:03:08

asking more questions. Great. And

1:03:10

need to be less sure. And

1:03:13

I just wanted to say that eight

1:03:16

and fours do very well together,

1:03:19

because they both really

1:03:22

value authenticity and

1:03:24

truth. And

1:03:27

it really helps them connect. So

1:03:32

y'all enjoy that. Yeah, yeah.

1:03:34

Yeah. Well, I can hardly

1:03:36

wait until you get here.

1:03:39

There are lots of other really interesting

1:03:41

people who are going to be with

1:03:43

us for the year. And I

1:03:46

don't know what happens exactly when

1:03:48

people walk into the Micah Center,

1:03:51

and we start a new cohort. But

1:03:54

it's quite something. Yeah. And

1:03:56

I have no doubt that you will make it

1:03:58

better. Thank you. I

1:04:01

appreciate that. I'm really looking forward to

1:04:03

it. And like I said, it's been a pleasure. I mean,

1:04:05

I feel like I know both of you. I mean, Joel,

1:04:07

I had a couple weeks, you know, with we were zoom

1:04:10

in and having a small group, but I

1:04:12

just feel like I know you already. And I

1:04:14

just I feel your big heart just coming across

1:04:16

right on zoom. And I'm just I'm excited to,

1:04:18

you know, be a part of this and to learn from

1:04:21

you because I know, like

1:04:23

I said, everything I've heard you say about all

1:04:25

this and just the way you see the world,

1:04:27

the way I've heard Joe talk, it just feels

1:04:29

like, you know, it's where I'm supposed to be.

1:04:31

And that there's so much that

1:04:33

I can learn and take in from all of

1:04:35

you. And that I think in reverse,

1:04:37

I think there's things I have to share

1:04:39

that hopefully will benefit all of you and

1:04:42

your community as well. For

1:04:44

sure. Can't wait. Can't wait. Me

1:04:46

too. Thank you so

1:04:48

much. Well, I can't wait to meet you all in

1:04:50

person and give you all a big hug. What

1:05:00

a great episode. And the future

1:05:03

oriented seven in me can hardly wait for

1:05:05

you all to meet our third member of

1:05:07

this series, Matt Lesser, in the next episode

1:05:09

of the anti gram journey. But

1:05:11

now let's talk about the God of wild

1:05:13

places. And April 26, millions of Americans

1:05:17

disillusioned with organized religion,

1:05:19

yearn for meaning and transcendence in their

1:05:22

lives. Many of them are

1:05:24

finding that nature. When pastor

1:05:26

and theologian Tony Jones, PhD, had

1:05:29

his crisis of faith brought on

1:05:31

by personal trauma and broken relationships,

1:05:34

he sought solace in the outdoors, paddling

1:05:36

a canoe, hunting with his dog, butchering

1:05:39

deer. When he walked out

1:05:41

of the church and into the woods, he left

1:05:44

the orderly pews and numbered hymns

1:05:46

for chaotic spaces and untamed wilderness.

1:05:49

And he rediscovered God, a God

1:05:51

who brings peace in the midst of storms,

1:05:54

a God who lives in the community of our

1:05:56

fellow creatures, a God who's acquainted

1:05:58

with death. This is the

1:06:00

God of Wild Places. When

1:06:03

you've got Barbara Brown Taylor, Brian McLaren,

1:06:06

Lillian Daniel, and Suzanne Stavill endorsing

1:06:08

your book, I think you're doing something

1:06:10

right. So when we booked

1:06:13

April 26th, and Tony

1:06:15

says, I think my friend Ronnie would be a

1:06:17

great addition to the evening, then

1:06:19

you visit ronniefows.com, listen

1:06:22

to some of his work, and realize this

1:06:24

is gonna be one of the greatest nights at

1:06:26

the microcenter all year. And

1:06:30

this year, like

1:06:34

California, who

1:06:40

saved it all with laughs, there

1:06:46

may make good decisions, there

1:06:53

aint no lookin' at laughs- Oh

1:07:00

re microwave you good man- Cause

1:07:08

there's always a way, ...and

1:07:13

half a stepstar says it- ...as

1:07:20

everything be said. So

1:07:27

as you know, with limited space at the

1:07:29

Mic KA Center, ...it comes limited seating. But

1:07:31

L-Team is thrilled to offer an online option

1:07:33

...to join us if you can't be in

1:07:35

Dallas ...or if you miss out

1:07:37

on an in-person ticket. The God

1:07:39

of Wild Places is available everywhere April 2nd.

1:07:43

But you can pre-order now on Amazon and at

1:07:45

Barnes & Noble. We'll have

1:07:47

copies available for you to get signed ...when you

1:07:49

meet Tony the night of the event. Come

1:07:51

with your questions for Tony and questions for

1:07:54

Joe and Suzanne. Join us

1:07:56

for the music. Join us for the

1:07:58

community. Join us in- Dallas

1:08:00

or online April 26. Go

1:08:03

ahead and sing us out Ronnie.