0:00

Today on an all new episode

0:02

of the Enneagram Journey.

0:05

Yes, that's right! There's no going back now!

0:07

I'm gonna talk to Tyler, I'm gonna make friends, I'm

0:10

gonna be a normal boy!

0:11

Yes, you are. You're finally

0:13

going to be just like everybody else.

0:17

What? Say that again. You're finally

0:19

going to be just like everybody else. But

0:24

I don't... I don't want

0:26

to be like everybody else. What do

0:28

you mean? I don't want to be

0:30

like them. Like any other zero in this miserable

0:33

town. Like my family. I won't do it.

0:35

I don't want to be like any other person. I

0:38

want to remain what I've always been. Superior,

0:40

brilliant, special. Oh god,

0:43

what was I thinking? I'm never going to

0:45

lift the veil. Ever. Nobody will ever

0:47

know the real me.

0:49

My accent's back, by the way. It was a very dramatic

0:51

moment.

0:52

If you say so. Stay

0:54

with me, oh,

0:58

let's just breathe. Who's

1:04

this guy? Bad. Hi

1:07

all. Why are you here, Todd? Okay,

1:09

let's get right to it, I guess. My

1:12

name is Todd Packer and I am in recovery.

1:15

I'm working the steps. I'm on step eight of

1:18

Alcoholics Anonymous, step nine

1:20

of Narcotics Anonymous. I'm here to make

1:23

amends.

1:24

I've been hard to deal with over the past

1:26

years. Kind of a jerk. I

1:28

know it. I don't need you to accept my apology,

1:32

but I'd love it if you did. Packer, we

1:35

accept. Actually,

1:38

they have a specific way I need to do this,

1:41

and I have to go through examples of stuff. Okay,

1:44

uh, where to begin?

1:52

Sorry. To

1:59

forgive. Give is divine,

2:02

so let's have a glass of wine

2:04

And have makeup sex

2:07

until the end of Time,

2:10

time, time, time, time Time

2:18

Oh, time!

2:20

So, what'd you think? I

2:24

mean, my God!

2:29

Welcome to The Antigram Journey,

2:31

your number one stop for a great antigram

2:33

conversation with Antigram Godmother

2:35

herself, Suzanne Stebel. My

2:38

name is Joel, and today is a Q&A

2:40

episode packed with questions about

2:42

antigram fours, forgiveness and

2:44

apologies, the withdrawing stance and

2:46

getting things done, and a great vulnerable

2:49

question about a six and a seven dealing

2:51

with our past.

2:53

Plug first, and it's a cool one. The

2:56

Road Back to You has sold one million

2:58

copies.

2:59

Woo, yeah, way to go!

3:01

Everyone here at LTM is just thrilled

3:03

for Suzanne and for N. Varsity Press,

3:06

and so we're going to celebrate. October

3:08

20th, if you can be here in Dallas that

3:10

Friday evening, we're going to have a party

3:12

and record a live podcast

3:14

at the Ivy Tavern in Dallas off

3:16

of Lemon.

3:17

The specific times and more information will be

3:19

available on the LTM website, so check

3:22

there, but for now, clear your night.

3:25

Or, you know, clear your weekend for that matter and come

3:27

and celebrate with the LTM community

3:30

and other antigram enthusiasts. Friday,

3:32

October 20th in Dallas. No,

3:35

unfortunately, this will not be available online.

3:37

Got to be there in person for this one. So

3:40

congratulations, Suzanne, and congratulations

3:42

to the million people who have made

3:45

the choice to read that book. And

3:47

now, congratulations to you, the listener,

3:50

because now you get to hear this great episode. Thank

3:52

you as always for listening. Thank you for supporting

3:55

the podcast and LTM, and we

3:57

hope to see you soon.

3:59

We're having a good summer. I

4:02

hope you are. We're busier

4:04

than we usually are in summertime, and

4:06

that's good too. We

4:09

particularly enjoy doing podcasts

4:13

that involve a variety of

4:15

questions and an opportunity

4:17

to answer some of your questions because

4:20

so many of you have the same question. It helps

4:22

when we can

4:26

be faithful to our mission to help

4:28

you with the things that you want to know. About

4:30

the anagram and we're going to get to do

4:32

some of that today which is super exciting

4:34

for both of us.

4:36

We like it and it's life-giving

4:38

for us. I hope it is for you. All

4:41

right, let's see here. Mrs. Ann,

4:43

I have been following you for the better part of three years.

4:45

I've read the road back to you, listened to you and Ian

4:48

all the way through the launch. The

4:50

only thing is I have not taken your course

4:53

yet. I am struggling between a one

4:55

and a two. Okay, the

4:58

best help I can give you with that

5:00

is this. Two's

5:04

have self-talk.

5:06

So that means when I leave here today

5:08

to drive home,

5:09

I'll be thinking about, I wish I'd answered

5:11

that a little different or I think

5:14

I'm going to talk to Joel about ways

5:16

that we could combine these two things or

5:18

something like that.

5:20

And

5:24

as a two, to be honest, I'm still

5:26

carrying a little bit from yesterday of,

5:29

did I do that well and should I have done this

5:31

different or that different? That'll be my thought

5:33

process.

5:34

Ones have a similar

5:37

process but it isn't

5:40

self-talk and it isn't another person.

5:43

It is what we call

5:45

the critic who is

5:47

the voice that ones begin to hear when

5:49

they're children and they hear

5:51

that voice until they

5:53

die. And the

5:55

reason we call it the critic is because

5:58

it never complements you.

5:59

you, you don't ever get an atta girl.

6:02

It's means, it's

6:04

mean, feels mean-spirited.

6:07

It feels sounds angry.

6:10

Why'd you do that? You should know better than

6:12

that. Why can't you figure out the difference

6:14

between ones and twos? Yours might sound like

6:16

that. And so that,

6:20

that feeling that

6:22

you get from the

6:24

critic creates

6:26

shame if you're a two, and

6:29

I don't have a critic, self-talk creates

6:31

shame for me. The critic for

6:33

you as a one, creates

6:35

lots of anger that you don't

6:38

know

6:38

how to manage. And you don't know how

6:41

to fight back. The critic

6:43

probably means that you have trouble sleeping,

6:47

that you feel exhausted

6:51

from comparison, because you,

6:54

you compare yourself to other people all the time. And

6:57

if you're a one, you probably

7:00

try to find people who aren't doing

7:02

things perfectly. So

7:04

you can for yourself, say

7:07

to the critics, see they don't get it right every

7:09

time either. That's what levels

7:11

the playing field for you.

7:14

When you move toward other people, if you're

7:17

a one, it's because you want

7:21

to correct something usually. If

7:23

you're a two, it's

7:25

always relational. And it's

7:27

because you want to be helpful.

7:29

You have anything to add to that? I

7:31

don't have anything to add. I have a

7:34

question to add on. I have a scenario with

7:37

a lot of that. It's gonna make it personal now

7:39

for me. Okay, great. So I'm

7:41

a seven. When he's a one, we

7:44

had a good healthy fight yesterday.

7:47

We had a fight and

7:49

fighting is healthy. And, you

7:52

know, we probably both could have done better at fighting

7:55

healthier, whatever that would be called. Dad

7:57

and I've been fighting for 30. eight

8:00

years and we could still do it better.

8:02

On and off. By the way, we, we

8:04

don't fight all the

8:06

time. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know. Here's

8:08

the things that I'm struggling with around this. I'm

8:11

struggling because I didn't quite get

8:13

the apology in the form that I would like

8:15

it. If that matters. I'm

8:17

also trying to use any Graham

8:20

knowledge to inflate,

8:23

like to make sense of what

8:25

happened. And it does, but it doesn't make it easier

8:27

for me to accept. Does that make sense? And

8:30

I know things such as would rather be like

8:32

right or in conflict, all the things. Yeah.

8:35

But that's where I'm at. It's like, okay. So

8:38

like I said, not a question. Just don't

8:40

add to you. Yeah. All right. Well, first

8:42

of all, when you have to ask to be

8:44

apologized to in a more sincere

8:47

way or in a different way or whatever, then

8:50

that automatically takes

8:52

a big bite out of the apology because

8:54

you had to ask. You had to say, you

8:56

know, that didn't really work for me. I didn't ask for

8:58

an apology. I said, I was

9:02

like the other day I was really wrong.

9:04

I was like, today you were really

9:07

wrong about this. And

9:10

then later I got the,

9:13

you know, her apology. Yeah.

9:16

But did you tell her that

9:18

it wasn't the apology you really were looking for?

9:20

No, no, no, not yet.

9:23

Got it. Or maybe never. Yeah, I wouldn't do it. But

9:27

I would say, I, instead of asking

9:29

for it to be different, I

9:31

think what we have to say is, and I'm

9:34

practicing this for me

9:36

to hear it and accept it, which is what

9:38

you're talking about.

9:40

It would be helpful if ABC

9:44

when dad apologizes to me, he does it immediately

9:46

when he knows he's wrong and he owns, I'm

9:49

wrong. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I did that.

9:52

And that's supposed to wrap it up. And

9:55

because of my two, of course, that doesn't, that

9:58

doesn't wrap it up. So

10:00

I

10:01

have said to dad as recently

10:03

as this week

10:04

You just say you're sorry to end the

10:06

conversation

10:09

And I want you to say you're sorry because

10:12

you're really sorry not to end the conversation

10:15

But he lives with a verbal processor. So

10:17

when I use any gram wisdom, I know he's trying

10:19

to get me shut up. I

10:21

Can say from 38 years of

10:23

living then sorry with y'all does

10:25

not in a conversation So

10:28

if you need to reminder tell

10:30

me yeah

10:31

What you

10:33

need to remember on the any

10:35

gram wisdom side and on

10:37

Whitney's side is

10:39

That once she knows she owes

10:41

you an apology She's also

10:44

getting a whipping from the

10:45

critic. That's that's why I said like I'm I've

10:48

it's not all about just it's not all Joel

10:50

Focused I'm trying to put this and and

10:53

I know I bet she wanted a different apology when

10:55

I said I messed up the other day Yeah, she

10:57

probably want a different apology of some sort

10:59

you know, it's just the the time

11:01

of how much time do

11:04

I dwell on it and Move

11:07

on or do I do something different? I

11:09

think you do something different because you all

11:11

are Still young in marriage

11:13

and young in fighting frankly. I

11:17

Think you say I've

11:18

been struggling with this since you apologized

11:22

and I just I'm not asking for a new Different

11:24

or bigger apology. I just want

11:27

you to know how how it landed for

11:29

me and if this

11:32

one piece you could do differently

11:35

then I

11:36

would really be grateful in the future and

11:39

Then you have to decide if you want to say to her

11:43

And if there's something you'd like for me to do different

11:45

and apologies Rising now would be a

11:47

great time for you to tell me to I

11:50

Think when people we love are really

11:52

really really really wrong. I

11:55

think you had four really sin there a verbal

11:59

apology doesn't work anyway.

12:02

It's the first step of

12:05

what comes next or doesn't

12:07

come next. You

12:09

know that dad

12:12

and I,

12:13

when y'all were all little and

12:16

we still do it sometimes, employed,

12:18

you don't get to say I'm sorry you have to say

12:20

will you forgive me

12:22

because that's not

12:25

as dismissive as I'm sorry

12:28

and then it's a mutual situation. Kathy,

12:32

I'm a 73 year old six in a

12:34

loving relationship with a 76 year old nine.

12:38

Any insights as to how to move forward

12:40

we are both new to the anagram.

12:43

Yes, read the path

12:45

between us

12:46

and get the study guide and do

12:48

that together or are you leading

12:51

a path between a study group

12:53

and after the summer. Yeah,

12:55

so once once school gets back in.

12:58

Yeah, so watch for that. Joel leads a group

13:00

online that will

13:02

create for you a lot

13:04

of topical. It's

13:07

like topic sentences in

13:10

a paragraph

13:11

when you read that book together when you're new to the

13:13

anagram. It'll give you something to think

13:15

about and talk about and you do that and then

13:18

you'll be reading about other numbers too and

13:20

you can talk about that and all

13:23

the stuff. That's what I would recommend. What about you,

13:25

Joel?

13:26

The thing that I love about it, the question, is

13:29

that they're in their mid

13:31

to latter 70s

13:34

and so I think that is some big

13:36

important piece of context that

13:39

I think is the most important piece of it. Me too.

13:41

So me talking or contributing

13:44

something as a 30 something year old.

13:46

I have in the last two

13:49

years

13:51

decided, I don't think you even know this,

13:54

I've decided that when I'm hurt

13:57

or angry or impatient

13:59

or

14:02

frustrated, I'm going

14:04

to keep

14:05

moving, but I'm going to breathe instead

14:08

of talk.

14:09

I'm going to wait

14:11

a bit before I try to bring up thinking. I'm

14:14

going to

14:15

do what I'm already doing, but I'm going

14:17

to do it

14:19

methodically or mechanically. And

14:21

while I'm doing all of that, I'm just, I'm

14:24

literally taking in slow breaths and letting

14:26

them out and taking in slow breaths

14:28

and letting them out. And

14:30

I'm saying less

14:33

and therefore I have fewer regrets.

14:38

And that's a positive and a negative. So

14:41

one example is one that you'll appreciate. And

14:44

that is that when I'm with somebody and I'm thinking,

14:47

wow, I

14:48

think I could help you with that. And

14:51

how can I

14:52

do more and give more? I'm

14:54

breathing my way through that instead

14:56

of saying those things. And

14:59

part of it's because my calendar

15:01

is so full that

15:02

I don't have any room to just keep

15:06

talking and keep.

15:09

I mean one to one with people in

15:11

elevators and

15:13

with the server at the restaurant. Well,

15:16

we

15:17

in my Monday small group yesterday, um,

15:20

the person who was sharing there

15:22

in an anagram eight

15:24

and they were talking about two twos in

15:26

their lives, how

15:29

all the, all the doing and

15:31

all the giving that is

15:34

for them unnecessary and

15:37

counter productive

15:39

for their relationship that they're like, I don't

15:41

want, I need you to do this other

15:43

thing. If they ask them a question,

15:46

ask the two a question about something, then

15:48

the two gives way more back than the

15:50

answer to

15:51

the, to the question. This is very

15:53

shaming. I

15:55

just want you to know that I wrote

15:58

an email or a text, I think.

16:00

to all four of you children

16:03

of mine

16:04

yesterday with all this stuff about

16:06

if you need more and I'm not meeting your

16:08

needs, I'm sorry and I love you the most, I

16:11

love you more than the work

16:13

that I do and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

16:15

and I just erased

16:16

it. I was gonna, but I was just thinking.

16:18

I didn't get it. I was about to say, you did not

16:20

send that to this child. No, I didn't send it to any

16:22

of you because none of you are feeling

16:24

that way. I just, it's

16:26

just stuff I make up, really.

16:32

All right, let me back up a little bit here.

16:34

Do, do, do. There was a question

16:36

up here. Give me one second. Let's stick with some relationship.

16:39

Yeah, let's do, let's talk about how what a

16:41

heyday you and Joey is a seven and eight would

16:44

have had if I sent that email. So

16:46

do you know what she's talking about? I don't know what

16:47

she's talking about. She's tired.

16:50

She's just tired. She was on Fox yesterday. She's

16:52

really tired. That's

16:54

right. That's it exactly. But what I'm telling

16:56

you is with breathing, I got

16:59

to that myself

17:01

and I don't usually breathe.

17:03

I just keep doing,

17:05

doing, doing, doing, doing, doing to manage

17:07

my feelings.

17:09

I never write out that email that you write. I

17:12

think about it.

17:13

Yeah. And I think about it, I think about it, but

17:15

I don't do. The thinking just keeps going.

17:17

And so I wonder, I'll be curious what,

17:20

for each anagram number, what the slowing

17:22

down and breathing,

17:24

what centers of intelligence that affects and

17:26

changes in at different times.

17:27

Exactly.

17:30

And I have a little list going. And the other thing

17:32

I would tell you is that when

17:35

I get as a two, when I get

17:38

onto the roundabout,

17:39

when doing is dominant, I

17:42

get busy enough that I don't know that I need to

17:45

get off.

17:46

I miss my exit.

17:48

I don't get my stuff done.

17:50

Or you're like, I'm still driving. It's what you said

17:52

a second ago about the stopping and breathing, changing

17:54

the doing. That's right. And breathing

17:57

is a way to get to all three repressed

17:59

centers. You can breathe your way to feeling,

18:01

you can breathe your way to thinking, and you can breathe

18:03

your way to doing or stopping

18:06

doing or doing something different.

18:08

That's what I was about to say. Or breathe your way

18:11

past or through regret and

18:13

bad choices and bad decisions

18:16

that you have to walk back later because you didn't.

18:19

The physical toll

18:21

that not breathing has taken

18:23

on me, yes, has

18:25

taken on me, I

18:26

think is very tangible.

18:28

Yeah, what's the name of that book we like about

18:30

breathing? Breathe. That

18:34

was the first thing that was two summers

18:36

ago. Yeah.

18:38

Dad couldn't read

18:40

that without reading it out loud to me. Now

18:42

listen to this, but wait, listen to this. Listen

18:45

to this. It's a yellow cover for

18:47

those of you who want to get it, and I'm pretty

18:49

sure the title is Breathe.

18:50

That is the title, and I can find

18:53

it. It's fascinating.

18:57

I'm a six, and I've been dating a four

19:01

for several years. One of the recurring

19:03

difficulties is navigating his

19:05

big sad feelings in ways that recognize

19:08

or see him, but don't make everything

19:10

about those feelings. Being other referenced,

19:13

being balanced with that is really hard.

19:16

One of the things that I say

19:20

to

19:21

people who are in relationship with fours,

19:24

don't get into

19:28

their stuff. Stand beside

19:30

it, observe it, care

19:33

about it, be compassionate

19:36

about it, but don't get in it

19:39

because once you get in it, it takes

19:41

you down, and that's what you're talking about. Relationally,

19:46

y'all are in a long-term relationship, so

19:49

I'm talking about day to day, hour to hour. Be

19:51

present to the sadness.

19:55

Respond sometimes

19:59

verbally. to the sadness and

20:01

then stand apart from that. And

20:05

remember, you can't change people.

20:08

The language of letting go, how many

20:10

times do you think I've said these words? Melody

20:14

Beatty ought to send me, what's that

20:16

called? You need some residuals? Yeah,

20:19

the language of letting go by

20:21

Melody Beatty, December 5th

20:24

will really help you. So

20:26

order that book and read December 5th

20:29

every day for three months

20:32

and then keep it handy on your phone so

20:35

that you can

20:36

continue to accept that you can't change

20:39

a

20:40

fours way of dealing with

20:42

life.

20:44

And if you wanna be in a relationship, you have to be present

20:46

to it and don't get

20:48

in it. Keep with the number four.

20:51

I'm gonna read a completely different question. This

20:53

one's from an email

20:56

and it's about an eight and a four.

20:58

And so after the question, I'd love to hear

21:00

you talk to that

21:02

the solution or whatever

21:04

for the eight is different than

21:06

the six or the work to do.

21:10

So how their relationship with a textbook

21:12

eight and this person is a

21:14

four, a textbook four. Our

21:16

relationship has been incredible so far, lots of deep

21:18

discussions, introspection, laughing, but

21:21

we also do struggle to meet in the middle at times.

21:24

I've read this pairing can be very volatile. I

21:26

wanna do everything that is in my slash our power

21:28

to focus on making the relationship thrive

21:31

and he is equally as committed. What are

21:33

some things we can do to keep our relationship on

21:35

course without letting the emotional intensity

21:38

between us turn into something potentially

21:40

harmful to both of us?

21:43

Okay, you have the opposite

21:46

problem in relationship. The

21:49

four brings too many feelings and

21:51

the eight doesn't bring enough.

21:53

And my guess is that

21:56

most difficulty is about that

21:58

emotional difference.

22:02

Eights have to learn

22:06

to

22:08

embrace the vulnerability

22:10

of allowing their feelings

22:13

to rise enough that they can name them

22:16

and share them. And

22:18

that they're not inclined to do that

22:21

if they're in relationship with the four and they're

22:24

just feelings falling on all the time. It's

22:26

like, I don't want any more of this. That's

22:28

what I know is I don't want more of this. The

22:31

things that you have in common are you both value

22:34

authenticity and honesty, which is why

22:36

you're having these great discussions. And

22:38

it's probably why you're in relationship with one

22:40

another. And here's the

22:43

most important thing that can

22:45

happen. I'm not clear on who's the

22:47

four and who's the eight, but it doesn't matter.

22:50

The most important thing that can happen

22:53

is for

22:55

the eight to say

22:57

to the four and mean it.

22:59

I'm no longer going to try to make you

23:01

happy. Now

23:03

that doesn't mean that they didn't want the four to be happy.

23:06

It means their tendency

23:09

as eight when fours are

23:12

even when they're melancholy, but for sure

23:14

when they're really sad is to make

23:17

you happy. And you don't want to be happy if

23:19

you're the four. So you can't get there. You

23:21

just want to stay in where you are in

23:23

these deep feelings until you work them through. And

23:26

so the eight feels like a failure, which they're not accustomed

23:28

to when they can't make you happy. If

23:31

you take that out of the mix,

23:33

you still have this great relationship,

23:36

but it doesn't involve the

23:38

eight wanting something for the four that the four

23:40

doesn't want. Maybe this

23:43

one will be a four podcast. Like we're going to

23:45

stick with four stuff. Okay.

23:47

This is an I'm a four looking for a new job.

23:50

As you can imagine, this process brings out all

23:53

of my big emotions and the characteristics

23:55

of my number. It's easy for the

23:57

feelings of rejection, envy, self criticism

23:59

to become

23:59

all consuming. So how do I

24:02

as a four allow myself to have my feelings

24:05

around looking forward

24:07

and getting a new job but not be

24:09

consumed by them? There

24:12

are two things that would be

24:15

directly tied to your bringing

24:17

up doing that will make a

24:19

difference in this process for you.

24:23

So you've got to recognize

24:26

that you are doing

24:27

repressed and that

24:29

you tend to just keep going and

24:32

going and going with all of this thinking that

24:35

about the things that you put in the email

24:37

about getting a job all the shame all

24:40

the comparison all the envy all those

24:42

things

24:43

going over that over and over and over by

24:46

supporting your feelings with thinking and

24:48

not doing anything is not helpful.

24:51

So you have to bring

24:53

up doing

24:54

and that means that you

24:57

need to fill your day with doing

25:00

things that interest you and that

25:02

are helping you to find a new

25:04

job

25:05

doing

25:06

not wishing I had that job not

25:10

critiquing yourself over and over for your interview

25:12

from the job you didn't get none of that doing

25:15

something.

25:16

The second thing that happens is

25:19

for two threes and fours shame is

25:21

the default emotion.

25:23

I mean you are feeling dominant and thinking

25:26

supports feeling and you're doing repressed and

25:29

what you have to do with that thinking is

25:31

that's how you fight your shame.

25:33

You got to control the shame or this

25:35

is just going to be a weapon for you the whole time and

25:38

one of the ways you can control shame is

25:41

by productive thinking. There's

25:43

no reason for me to feel shame about this. Seventeen

25:47

people applied for that job and somebody

25:49

else had more experience than I do. That's productive

25:51

thinking as opposed to man

25:54

that was the one I really wanted. I

25:56

didn't get it because I'm just not very good

25:58

at what I do.

25:59

never going to get the job I want. That's non-productive

26:02

thinking. So that's the difference. Control

26:05

your shame with productive thinking and

26:07

you got to do, do, do.

26:10

And my guess is your response to my answer

26:12

is yuck,

26:13

ugh. But

26:15

I'm sorry, it's true.

26:18

Most hard things are yuck and ugh. So

26:21

what if both partners are in the withdrawing

26:23

stance? So this person

26:26

looks like it's a five and a nine.

26:29

So we often can't get stuff done.

26:32

Decisions, house renovation, future

26:34

plans. How

26:36

do we get moving?

26:39

I think you need to spend some time talking

26:41

with each other about maybe

26:44

making a list on butcher

26:46

paper or on a small whiteboard

26:49

that you'll both see a lot of

26:52

things we must do.

26:56

The problem with a nine is they're doing something

26:58

all the time. It's just not the things that need to

27:00

be done. And the problem with a five

27:03

is that you're planning the things

27:05

that need to be done but you're not doing them.

27:07

So together if you make

27:10

a list of the things that must

27:12

be done and then you

27:14

put a

27:16

target date on

27:19

those things being completed.

27:21

And then you take an honest look

27:23

at that

27:24

every three or four days together and

27:30

recognize what isn't getting

27:32

done. And then one of you has to say I'll

27:34

take responsibility for this one. But

27:37

it needs to be a

27:39

nine in healthy doing or

27:41

a five in healthy doing because you

27:43

don't need more.

27:45

Well, I'll do something but I won't

27:47

probably get that done from the nine and

27:49

you sure don't need more planning from

27:51

the five. It's never

27:53

really a matter of withdrawing stance people

27:56

not knowing what to do.

27:57

It's a matter of wanting to

27:59

do what

27:59

needs to be done. That's always true. You're

28:03

too as people know. Allie is a

28:06

two and it's I

28:08

find it hard to have a close friend who

28:11

is a four. I'm

28:12

so externally focused and she is so

28:14

internally focused. I find it hard because

28:16

it feels like everything is on her time

28:19

when we connect when we get deep or whatnot is on

28:21

her time. What

28:23

are your thoughts on that? Well

28:25

fours play hard

28:28

to get and

28:29

they do it intuitively rather than

28:31

intentionally and it's because

28:34

that's one of the ways that they can prove

28:36

to themselves that you really

28:38

want to be in a relationship with them.

28:41

So with that in mind and

28:43

that is part of the baseline

28:46

that you're going to work from.

28:47

The next reality is that

28:49

one of the reasons it's hard for you to be in a relationship with

28:52

a four is because you feel

28:54

your feelings and you feel the four's

28:57

feelings and that is a

28:59

lot. That's a lot of feelings. So

29:02

what you have to do with those do

29:04

with those feelings is

29:06

turn them into

29:09

thinking,

29:10

productive thinking

29:12

and then turn that into

29:14

ways of

29:15

allowing

29:19

yourself to have better boundaries

29:22

and self-care would include that

29:25

sometimes you want to say

29:27

when and where we're going to go do something

29:29

and you need to keep stepping out

29:31

and if they say oh Tuesday's

29:34

not good for me I rather do Sunday afternoon.

29:37

You need to be in a position to say well

29:40

could you make Tuesday work for me this

29:42

time? We often do things

29:44

on your schedule something very gentle

29:47

but something that points out what's happening because when

29:49

fours get into their

29:52

average or below average fourness

29:55

they're not aware of how they're affecting other people.

29:57

They're only aware of how everything affects

29:59

them.

30:01

Let's talk about parenting a 5.

30:03

My

30:06

daughter is a 5. She is 9 years old. She

30:09

asks 1 million questions.

30:10

How can I curb many of the seemingly

30:13

unnecessary questions while still allowing for her curiosity?

30:16

She wants to know every detail about all of our lives,

30:18

even the things that aren't relevant to her. And

30:21

she gets upset when plans change and she

30:23

struggles with flexibility.

30:24

I would appreciate any insight.

30:27

She's 9. She's

30:32

probably not a 5.

30:34

That sounds very much like a 6.

30:38

It's very difficult to assign

30:41

numbers to children. So

30:43

I want to say that first. I don't

30:45

do it unless it's my

30:47

grandchildren. You know, I

30:50

do some of it and I've been right and I've been wrong.

30:53

So I would like for you to consider that

30:55

your daughter might be a 6 because 6's are

30:57

the ones who ask so many

31:00

questions. Fives

31:02

generally don't want to have that much conversation,

31:04

frankly.

31:06

Now if they're asking

31:08

a question about how was your day and what did you do today

31:10

and where did you go and all that, those are 6 questions.

31:14

If they're asking you questions

31:16

about

31:19

how do bread machines work? Like

31:21

how can you put flour in a machine

31:24

with these other things and come out with a loaf of bread?

31:26

How does that happen? Now that's a question

31:29

a 5 would ask about an inanimate

31:31

object that they're trying to figure out

31:33

how it works.

31:35

6 is the way they build relationships

31:37

with other people is by wanting to know the

31:40

minutia of what you did today

31:42

and how it went and oh, well, where

31:44

do you buy groceries? I like to go there

31:46

too because they display the fruit so

31:48

beautifully. But I found that the bakery

31:51

is better at this. All of that kind of conversation

31:53

with 6's is relationship building.

31:57

and

32:00

that sounds so much like my childhood struggles. There

32:02

you go. Yeah. I

32:05

bet you got a six. And she could

32:07

be an introverted six, anaphobic

32:09

six, which would make it look more five-ish. I

32:13

don't know necessarily the numbers of my

32:15

kids. I've got guesses. Sure. We

32:17

keep, we hold it all loosely. Yeah.

32:20

The question is more important than the,

32:22

the kid's anneagram number. Exactly.

32:25

So just, especially, this

32:27

is a perfect example. And they asked

32:29

the right question. Yes. So

32:32

let's just remove that. They said,

32:34

my kid's a five. And let's remove

32:36

the age. That doesn't matter. They asked, how can

32:39

I, I'm struggling with this. And

32:42

that's what so many people,

32:44

the best questions you receive at workshops

32:47

are, here is the scenario.

32:50

How can I adjust myself

32:52

in the

32:54

scenario instead of, here's the scenario.

32:57

How can I get my daughter to pump the

32:59

brakes on the damn questions?

33:00

So glad you brought me back

33:02

to that. Here's the thing

33:04

you can do with a nine-year-old and you should, you

33:07

could, almost

33:08

said should, start doing that now.

33:11

And one of the things

33:13

you can do is say,

33:15

you know, I have so much to think about

33:17

today.

33:18

And I know you have a lot of questions about

33:20

that. Would you sit there for just a minute and

33:23

think about the three most important questions you

33:25

have? And I'll answer those three, but

33:27

I don't have time to answer more than that. That

33:29

way you're not being dismissive. You're not saying

33:32

your questions are not important. And

33:34

you're giving her a little time instead

33:36

of a lot of time.

33:38

I've joked about this in the past and the

33:40

joke has been, you know, that Google

33:44

co-parents with me.

33:45

So we have, for

33:48

different reasons, in most of the rooms of the

33:50

house, we have the little Google minis that just tucked

33:52

away in a corner. It's nice, it plays music

33:55

throughout the house. It's all that stuff. But

33:57

also I love, they

33:58

forget about it sometimes.

34:00

But you know, a kid will, especially when you're in

34:02

the middle of making dinner

34:04

and talking to Whitney, you know, hearing

34:06

about Whitney's day and doing things and in comes

34:09

kids like, how do you spell this? Ask

34:11

Google. Ask Google. Google,

34:13

how do you spell this? Or...

34:14

That's what dad does with me. Sorry,

34:18

just saying. That's

34:21

the truth. That's the truth.

34:25

But I just, you know, the, I

34:28

love the idea of, I can answer, I've

34:30

got time, I love you so much and I can answer

34:32

three. And these other questions are

34:34

important to you. Let's figure out a way for you

34:36

to find those answers as well. And

34:39

there's just all sorts of solutions out

34:41

there.

34:41

Another solution is,

34:43

we just have been talking about that for about

34:46

five minutes. How many

34:48

of those questions did you already know the answer

34:50

to?

34:51

And then here's what you start teaching and

34:53

it won't matter what number she is, but here's what you start

34:55

teaching. I trust you

34:58

and I trust how you think. And

35:01

I wonder if you're checking the answers

35:03

that you have in your head with me or if you're

35:06

really asking me a question about

35:08

something that you don't know. Let's

35:11

not assume that the kids are six. Right. That's

35:14

a good... But let's also,

35:16

let's pretend that the kids are six.

35:18

Yep. And that as a hearing adult

35:21

sixes talk about the inter-committee

35:23

and using people as adults,

35:27

as sound boards essentially of

35:29

just, hey, asking a question,

35:31

but I really am looking for confirmation

35:34

of the thing I believe, then how

35:36

do you

35:36

parent that as a child? I mean, I'm sorry.

35:39

Yes, in a child. Yes. And so what you do

35:41

is you say, what do you think the answer is?

35:44

And then they'll tell you maybe.

35:46

And then you say, well, why

35:48

don't you think about it for a while? And if you don't know the answer

35:50

by bedtime, then I'll answer it. And

35:53

then you keep, you're affirming

35:56

their independence and

35:58

their ability, but...

35:59

careful with it

36:01

and don't do that too much because

36:03

assuming that they might be a six,

36:06

that she might be a six,

36:08

you want to recognize that

36:10

she's relationship building with you.

36:13

That's her way of connecting.

36:16

All right. The subject of this

36:18

question is energy level of an anagram

36:21

nine

36:21

and it's a little bit longer. So I'll do my best to

36:24

read it. Well, I'm an anagram

36:26

nine. I'm a mom to two young kids. They're

36:29

four and one. They're ages. I

36:31

work full time as a manager at a software company

36:34

and due to my husband's job right now, I'm

36:36

in a season where a lot of the caretaking and

36:39

home management tasks fall to me. My

36:41

plate is full and I consistently feel pretty

36:43

disappointed in the amount of energy

36:45

I have to get the minimum requirements done

36:47

in a day. I look like a spaced out

36:50

zombie by dinnertime.

36:51

I've heard you talk about the low energy level of nines

36:53

before. Do you have any recommendations

36:56

for how to make peace with that reality and

36:58

also somehow tap into more energy

37:00

or access a different way to get stuff

37:03

done for me and my family in a healthy way?

37:06

You cannot get it done

37:09

unless you write it down

37:11

and prioritize it

37:13

or have your husband help you prioritize

37:15

it.

37:17

And

37:19

then you have to be honest and say, I think

37:21

I can do

37:22

this and this and this, but I can't do this. I can't

37:24

do this too. So

37:26

then you are from

37:28

a thinking position,

37:30

boundaried in a healthy way

37:33

saying to your partner in life,

37:35

I can handle

37:38

dinner. I

37:39

can't handle breakfast. What should we

37:41

do? Instead

37:43

of what should I do?

37:45

And the big projects that have

37:47

to get done. You prioritize

37:49

which ones have to be done during this season.

37:52

And if they don't have to be done, take them off the list

37:56

and put an asterisk by the

37:58

things that you will feel.

37:59

guilty about

38:02

if they don't get done

38:04

daily or

38:07

if they're weekly things or whatever because

38:09

you can't carry guilt too

38:13

and you're gonna have to take some time for yourself

38:16

the only way that nines can fill up is

38:18

with a long time now I realize

38:20

that everything I've suggested requires

38:22

time and energy and commitment

38:25

from your husband to do that and

38:27

I have

38:28

I think I've had a four-year-old and a one-year-old

38:31

at the same time

38:32

I have I maybe I've

38:34

gotten close and I

38:37

get it about having kids

38:39

who have lots of needs I

38:42

had a before I was married before

38:44

I ever had children I had a

38:46

relationship with a family at the school

38:48

where I taught she was the counselor

38:50

there and they had nine children

38:53

and

38:53

they did a lot

38:56

of the work on the weekend

38:58

for the whole week like everything

39:00

they cooked they doubled

39:02

and they put half in the freezer they

39:04

I mean they just did it and so

39:06

if there's a day where you can work really

39:09

hard all day long to make the other six

39:11

days easier try that plan

39:15

I'm gonna read this question it's from Courtney so

39:17

it's not from me it's from okay wait a minute I want

39:20

to finish and say that one more thing about the previous

39:22

one and don't

39:26

consider it a failure

39:28

any day of the week when you

39:30

don't feel like you got everything done

39:33

be sure that you put the four-year-old and the one-year-old

39:36

ahead of

39:38

picking up toys or folding

39:40

the laundry just right or

39:43

all the little things yeah

39:46

now I'm through

39:48

okay

39:50

I'm a seven and was recently engaged to

39:52

a six I'm much healthier now but

39:54

struggled in the past with addictive tendencies

39:57

relationships and alcohol the more

39:59

I shared with him

39:59

the

40:00

six the more my

40:03

past choices fueled his fear of a future together

40:05

thoughts on how to heal

40:07

moving forward

40:09

I was engaged it says I

40:11

was recently engaged to a six so I think

40:14

I think it is a present engagement uh-huh correct

40:18

we are no longer together okay so

40:20

there we go nevermind no longer together okay

40:24

Courtney I'm sorry

40:26

and

40:29

that might not be a bad thing

40:33

and it doesn't have anything to do with any gram numbers

40:35

it it's not always a

40:37

terrible thing for relationships to

40:41

be healthy enough that you know it isn't gonna work

40:43

before you marry and

40:46

it might be a really sad thing

40:48

for you and that's why I'm saying I'm sorry

40:51

now let me talk about the

40:54

future and

40:56

Joel you need to chime in with this please

40:58

but there is no way to

41:00

have a relationship be healthy

41:03

if you don't have enough

41:06

trust to tell the truth

41:09

about addictive behavior and problems

41:11

with addiction you

41:14

just have to do that

41:16

and if that's scary for people then

41:19

you have to give them all the information

41:22

that you can so

41:23

that they

41:25

have a full field of

41:28

opportunity to

41:30

alleviate their fear

41:32

themselves

41:34

that will be difficult

41:36

with sixes because

41:39

if you've heard me teach you

41:41

know that I use anxiety in place of

41:43

fear even though fear is the word

41:45

from ancient any gram work because

41:49

anxiety is about possible future

41:51

events and six is

41:53

fear is about possible

41:55

future events so it's really anxiety

41:58

they handle fear

41:59

really well.

42:02

It's hard when you have a complex

42:04

past

42:06

to keep a dependent

42:08

number one, two, or six from

42:12

worrying about possible

42:14

future events.

42:16

It's a very complex issue and

42:18

it doesn't have an easy answer.

42:21

And I think any

42:24

groundwork done

42:26

with the next person who

42:28

becomes your potential partner

42:31

in life

42:33

will help get past some of those

42:37

questions and hurdles before you

42:39

get too deep in the relationship.

42:41

You think that's all good advice, Joel?

42:45

I think so. I

42:46

can just give some shared experience. I wouldn't

42:48

call any

42:49

of what I'm about to say advice and I shouldn't be

42:52

giving advice. I was

42:54

married to a six and

42:59

we would have gotten divorced anyway at

43:01

some point anyway. So that's not a...

43:03

they said like, oh man, if we had done something different

43:06

around this one thing or around my

43:08

alcoholism or around her

43:11

whatever, it

43:12

was what it was. And

43:15

two wonderful children have come from

43:17

that and

43:19

life is great. And we co-parent

43:21

together, etc. And

43:23

not all relationships are supposed to last forever.

43:25

I'm sorry I interrupted, but they're not. And

43:29

I'd say, I don't know what

43:31

Courtney's experience was as we

43:34

tried to, you know, as things came to light

43:37

and so on, as we tried to reconcile

43:39

it,

43:40

she the six wanted more

43:43

or not wanted, needed and demanded

43:45

more control. And so

43:48

as anxiety went up, control

43:51

went up and, you know, and I'm a seven

43:53

and

43:54

that's just that. Got

43:56

to work. So it doesn't

43:58

work. So then fast forward.

43:59

however many years and

44:02

I meet Whitney

44:04

so still dependent stance

44:07

you know you said I want to get the words right

44:09

did

44:10

you do much the

44:12

more I shared you know about

44:15

the past choices the more it fueled the

44:17

fear of the future well within

44:21

like the first two weeks

44:23

I kind of we date one

44:25

hey I'm an alcoholic

44:27

date for a

44:29

suicide survivor date

44:32

eight I've been to prison like

44:35

got it all and I still remember

44:37

saying the last thing that we had gone somewhere

44:39

like to spend time with her friends for the weekend

44:43

and we had just the best time and her friends

44:45

liked me everything was just really really

44:47

great and we were both quite smitten and so

44:49

on and I remember we're driving back

44:51

to Dallas it was probably like an hour and a half drive

44:54

and we're both just so getting happy I was

44:57

like listen I'm I'm so sorry I have to

44:59

do this I've got I've got one last I don't

45:01

remember which one it was yeah one last

45:03

skeleton that's got to come out of the closet

45:05

and I swear you've been so great so far

45:07

through these others yeah and and this is that

45:10

and then it you

45:11

know and then it goes back to the

45:13

four mantras I think yep so

45:15

if there was any advice it'd be that

45:17

it's not my advice it's a repeating of showing

45:20

up paying attention telling the truth

45:23

and then not being attached to the results and

45:25

I think if you know if Whitney had

45:28

said if I'd done those first three and

45:30

then Whitney you've been like this has

45:32

been great you've got a little bit too much yeah

45:35

for me and whatever then if I had

45:40

let that shame me or

45:42

affect my future going forward then

45:44

I dropped the ball on number four being attached the

45:46

results that's right

45:48

I think you're very brave

45:51

that I would just say that I

45:53

think you're very brave and I think you intuitively

45:56

did the right things and I think

45:58

you're gonna end up in a really

45:59

relationship with somebody who

46:02

loves you like Whitney, loves Joel.

46:04

And

46:06

let me just say this,

46:08

everybody has stuff.

46:11

Everybody has stuff. Not everybody

46:13

tells it. And if

46:16

you don't, then five, six,

46:18

seven, you know, they say seven year

46:20

seven is a hard year for marriages. It's

46:22

because that's when all the stuff starts to show up

46:24

that you didn't tell

46:26

and that you didn't share. And

46:29

I don't know anybody who's not addicted

46:31

to something. I don't know anybody

46:34

who's not addicted to something.

46:37

It's just that some things

46:39

are called out

46:41

in public ways that

46:44

the public has attached shame to.

46:46

And

46:47

addiction is one of them.

46:50

I would rather be in

46:52

a relationship with somebody who's either done

46:54

a lot

46:54

of work or somebody

46:56

who's done 12 step work. People

46:59

that I teach who have,

47:01

who are sober

47:03

and who have done the program to get sober

47:06

are so smart and so teachable

47:08

and so relatable. It's

47:11

quite something. And I'm guessing, Courtney,

47:14

that

47:14

that's you and that it was

47:17

just the

47:18

fear of the thing, not the

47:20

fear of you in relationship to the thing

47:23

that cost you the relationship.

47:26

We've said it before on a podcast or somewhere,

47:29

just the blessing that people

47:31

who have an obvious addiction, how

47:33

that is such a blessing versus

47:36

the people that don't have the

47:38

big taboo addictions, the

47:40

struggle that they have.

47:41

Well, I will say this for anyone who

47:44

hasn't read it to read Breathing Underwater by

47:46

Richard Rohr. I mean, shopping

47:50

is an addiction that is supported

47:53

with credit limits that people can't handle.

47:56

And that gets results because

47:58

other people say,

47:59

Oh, I love your new dress. I love your

48:02

new haircut. I love your new handbag.

48:04

I love your new stuff. Uh,

48:07

there's a lot of affirmation for some

48:09

addiction

48:10

eating disorders. There's affirmation

48:13

on one side from our culture and shame

48:15

on the other. Oh, that's all I was going to say. Oh good. Thank

48:17

you so much. It was just about, it's,

48:20

it is a shame that society,

48:23

this isn't, sorry, this is a small tangent

48:25

society dictates what addictions

48:28

are. Okay. Right now. So,

48:30

you know, AA, the way it started, it wasn't okay

48:32

to be an alcoholic. That's why it had to be anonymous.

48:35

That's all these things. Now

48:37

it's,

48:38

I mean, still, it's not a good thing to be an alcoholic,

48:40

but it's not a,

48:42

there's not as much shame tied to that. But now there's

48:44

new things that are tied, that

48:46

shame is tied to. And that society is like, it's

48:49

not, it's okay to be an alcoholic now. And

48:51

it's around us everywhere, but it's not okay

48:53

to be a sex addict. That's right.

48:55

And I had an occasion,

48:58

years ago within the last 10

49:00

years to try to find

49:03

gamblers anonymous for people

49:06

who are struggling with gram gambling,

49:08

man, they're hidden.

49:10

The, the, two

49:12

on this side of the DFW Metroplex, right?

49:15

Which is crazy. It's

49:18

interesting to me that it,

49:21

it happens

49:23

in the 1950s, sixties, seventies

49:26

in back rooms.

49:27

And now I was watching something

49:30

on TV the other day. And if I

49:32

wanted to bet on

49:33

who was going to win, I could do it with my phone.

49:36

It's like, really? Yeah, not in

49:38

Texas. Unfortunately, fortunately,

49:40

unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, uh,

49:43

I saw an interview or replay of

49:45

an interview with Dave Chappelle recently. And

49:47

people don't,

49:49

LTM does not endorse nor oppose Dave

49:51

Chappelle. Like this is me just talking about this interview,

49:54

but

49:54

I thought it was so interesting. He talked about, um,

49:57

minorities and dark colored people. were

50:00

addicted to crack. And that was

50:02

a bit, it was a crack, that was just,

50:04

you know, it was terrible, it was awful, those crack

50:06

heads, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And

50:09

now that it's in the white community

50:11

with opioids and

50:13

with pills, that it's different, that there's a lot

50:15

more

50:17

compassion and understanding and

50:19

we've gotta come up with solutions, that

50:21

it, and it was just so, I think context

50:24

is just

50:25

so important when we're talking about these things as well.

50:27

It's very important and I think

50:30

almost everything

50:31

supports

50:33

addiction

50:36

of one kind or another.

50:37

That's not true. I think there are

50:40

many, many, many cultural things in

50:43

our culture in the West and

50:45

in a Metroplex like the Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex

50:48

that support certain

50:50

addictions. Doing

50:52

some 12 step work on any

50:55

level about anything makes

50:58

everything else in your

51:00

spiritual life easier to do. It's

51:02

just another tool that makes

51:05

everything, that works with everything else. Absolutely.

51:07

So even if you don't think you're,

51:09

even if you're not struggling, if you don't think

51:11

you're struggling, if you still wanna

51:13

crack a blue book and just

51:15

add that tool, it's a great tool to

51:17

add.

51:18

I agree with that and I'm

51:20

codependent and

51:23

I have all the gifts for that as a two and

51:25

if you're a two, you do too. And

51:28

it can feel so, some of

51:31

our addictions can

51:33

feel so great.

51:35

Codependency can feel like

51:37

Jesus and that's,

51:41

it's tricky, tricky.

51:43

We are up against it time wise. Thank

51:45

you all who joined us on Good

51:48

Size Group that joined us here and

51:50

we're actually just gonna kinda reset in a moment

51:53

and we're gonna be live on the table recording

51:55

an episode of the Antigram Training Podcast

51:58

titled Going Back to School. or back to school

52:00

or something along those lines with

52:03

Joey and Billy Shoey. I heard the door just opened

52:05

there. So we're

52:07

going to be over there. If you,

52:09

if you have not joined

52:11

the table, I think it's a great

52:13

price point for everything that's on there. Um,

52:15

and you can cancel it immediately if you don't like it. Uh,

52:18

but a lot of, but a lot of great

52:20

stuff and we're going to be over there in

52:23

five, six, seven minutes, uh,

52:26

for an episode of the Andy Graham journey podcast.

52:28

I got to say one more thing. And that

52:30

is, uh, that I'm in recovery. I'm

52:32

not just a codependent hanging out here trying to

52:34

make codependent choices and 12 steps

52:37

are the way that I found

52:39

my way.

52:40

So

52:41

don't be,

52:43

don't shy away

52:44

from doing work on

52:47

whatever has the potential to be an addiction

52:50

that's, uh,

52:52

causes trouble for you.

52:54

Thanks for being with us. What? That was a lively

52:57

Q and a, I had a great time. Thank

52:59

you.

53:00

Thank you guys.

53:03

Thank you for listening. Here's a preview

53:05

of the next episode of the Enya Graham dream.

53:10

Say that again. I think there's

53:12

a chance that we are all struggling

53:15

to understand something

53:17

things that often

53:20

precede our questions.

53:23

Meaning

53:24

I think we're walking around struggling

53:28

and we don't even know what the questions are.

53:32

And we're not inclined to ask questions.

53:35

We're far more inclined to make statements.