0:01

Today on an all new episode

0:04

of the Enneagram Journey.

0:06

Is your dad home, Kyle? We need to talk to a lawyer. Mr.

0:08

Bavlansky? They're

0:09

gonna try and make us go back to school.

0:13

Yo, you could be spreading germs!

0:15

Maybe you didn't hear me, Kyle. They want

0:17

us to go back to school. So?

0:21

So? You really want to go back to that slavery?

0:23

I want an education. I want to be able to compete

0:25

for a job when I'm older.

0:27

You crazy, psychotic... Kyle,

0:29

we need to get a lawyer to stop schools from forcing us

0:31

back. What's with the kid wearing

0:33

a cummerbund? I let him wear whatever he wants

0:36

to wear. This is like a whole new

0:38

school of child raising I'm doing. You give the

0:40

kid options instead of orders. You don't let

0:42

him make the right decision. You're a pioneer. So,

0:44

Julian, what do you want to do tomorrow?

0:46

I want to go to school. Look

0:48

at that. I don't force him, he makes the right decision.

0:51

Way to go, kid. Back

0:53

to school, back to

0:55

school, to prove to dad

0:58

that I'm not a fool. I

1:00

got my lunch packed

1:03

up, my boots tied tight. I hope

1:06

I don't get in a fight.

1:09

Oh, back

1:10

to school, back to

1:12

school, back to school...

1:14

All right, children, welcome back to class.

1:17

I'm your new teacher, Detective Harris, and

1:19

this is our homeroom teacher's assistant,

1:22

Officer Johnson.

1:23

Let's start the day off with some math. Does

1:26

anyone understand math? Who

1:29

would like to lead the class with some math?

1:32

Let me try.

1:33

Kids, all right, come on, let's

1:36

settle down. Now we're going to do some finger paints,

1:38

you got that? You're going to finger

1:40

paint a marsupial

1:42

of your choice, or a fun thing

1:44

you did over the summer. You can't

1:47

make us stay here! This is a violation of our freedom!

1:49

Who's with me, guys? Now listen, we're going to start

1:51

finger painting right now! Oh my

1:53

god, I forgot how much it sucks to be around everybody. I

1:55

think I'm going to be sick! That's

1:57

what I go to school for. Even

2:00

though it is a real war, you

2:03

can call me crazy. She is so

2:05

amazing. That's what I

2:07

go to school for. Even though it is a real

2:09

war, your friends have

2:12

had plenty. She's the one that I need.

2:15

That's what I

2:17

go to school for. That's

2:20

what I go to school for. A

2:23

special back to school episode of the Antegram

2:25

Journey. And you can't have a special back

2:27

to school episode of the Antegram Journey

2:30

without the Antegram parents, Joey and Billy Shuey. You

2:34

can find them on social

2:36

media at Antegram

2:37

parents. My name is Joel. Of course, Suzanne

2:39

is going to be here. And they're going

2:42

to teach us about kids from a stance perspective,

2:45

help us parents from a triad

2:47

perspective. Help us parents

2:49

from a triad perspective. And

2:51

listeners of the show will recognize that this

2:53

episode is a little bit longer than usual. And that's

2:56

just because it is packed with great knowledge

2:58

and wisdom. And we have already got

3:00

it on the books for like a part two

3:02

to be recorded later. A

3:04

couple of podcast updates. Like

3:06

you, the listener, we want some good

3:08

routine around when episodes will be released.

3:11

So exciting news. You all

3:13

probably know I'm a huge fan of radio. Shout

3:15

out to the Ticket. A tip of the cap

3:17

to radio as we're going to release new episodes,

3:20

never recycled, on the 8th.

3:23

The 8th, the 18th and the 28th

3:25

of every month. You can expect a

3:27

fresh show. Also, be sure

3:30

and stick around at the end of each episode for

3:32

a preview of the next. Before

3:35

we get to today's episode, it's plug time.

3:38

2023 Antegram Boot Camp was absolutely

3:41

incredible. If you didn't get to

3:43

participate, the replay of the weekend's teaching

3:45

is available. And will remain up

3:47

and available through the end of the year. You

3:50

click on the link in the show notes or visit

3:52

LifeInTheTrinityMinistry.com or

3:55

SuzanneStabile.com and you'll easily

3:57

be able to navigate to the right page and

3:59

purchase the replay. replay of all three days teaching.

4:02

2023, Andy Graham Boot Camp, naming and

4:04

navigating. How are you gonna

4:07

get out of the roundabout? While

4:09

you're on the website, go ahead and scroll down and

4:12

check out the 2024 cohort programs

4:14

and dates. August is the final

4:16

month to apply for the Andy Graham cohort,

4:19

the Contemplative cohort, the Family

4:21

Systems cohort, and the Deconstruction-Reconstruction

4:24

cohort. You will find all of the important

4:26

information on the website, the dates, expectations,

4:30

descriptions, and the oh so important

4:32

application. September 1 is

4:34

the final day to apply. Click

4:36

on the links in the show notes or visit lifeinthetrinedyministry.com

4:41

backslash 2024 cohorts. As

4:45

always, thank you for listening and for your

4:47

support of the podcast and of Life

4:49

in the Trinity Ministry. Leave

4:51

a review and a rating and share it with your friends,

4:54

family, and community. And

4:56

now, let's let the Andy Graham Godmother

4:58

and the Andy grandparents

4:59

take us to school.

5:05

Everything that has happened so far just

5:07

reminded me that I'm gonna understand about

5:09

one fourth of the conversation between three of you.

5:13

It's like, I don't know, they make a lot of ticket

5:16

references that you don't get. I do

5:18

not get.

5:19

This one was golf. Yep. I

5:21

got the master's part. I did too, I figured that out,

5:23

but I didn't know who he was till then. But

5:27

yeah, we are with Joe and Billy Shuey. You

5:29

all know who they are, but I bet

5:31

they'll catch up to speed if they're

5:33

new to you.

5:34

And thank you all one, thank

5:36

you all for coming in today. Since I was like,

5:39

hey, two questions. One, would you all wanna do this?

5:41

And guess what? Do you wanna do it tomorrow? Reply

5:44

said yes to one and two. I was like,

5:46

awesome. Crushed it. Yep.

5:49

Fire away. Welcome. How are

5:51

y'all doing? How are things going? How's the summer been?

5:53

Summer's been great. I think

5:56

Billy has the most exciting update from the beginning

5:58

of the summer. I

6:00

got a doctorate in education and I wrote about

6:03

the anneagram. Back

6:05

to you. Such a nine.

6:07

Yeah, I should really be calling you Dr.

6:10

Shuey more. I'm gonna work on that. I forget somehow.

6:13

A

6:13

lot of productive doing from you as a nine. That's

6:15

right. And the rest of the time we were chasing around

6:18

our boys. Yeah. Very sports

6:20

and travel and whatnot.

6:22

And those of us in this room went to the treatise.

6:25

It's a treatise for those of you who don't know

6:28

when you get your doctorate in education.

6:31

It's not a dissertation. So his

6:33

treatise was on anneagram in education

6:35

and we were able to be at the proposal and

6:38

that was pretty awesome. It was eye-opening.

6:40

It was eye-opening. It was so awesome and

6:42

we need to I

6:45

think we get lost in congratulating

6:49

you. I mean I don't I

6:51

don't want to negate that. Your presence

6:53

does matter. I think we've been doing that a little too much

6:56

lately. Because your presence matters so much.

6:58

But what I want to talk about is the

7:00

fact that as far as I know you

7:03

have just offered the anneagram community

7:06

empirical evidence when

7:08

compared to other empirical evidence

7:11

that suggests that the anneagram is really

7:13

great and that you can prove it.

7:15

And that I think is the

7:18

step that had to be taken for

7:20

everybody for anneagram

7:23

wisdom to be taught in schools for the

7:25

particular use of education. So it's

7:27

not just that you got a doctorate but

7:30

and it's not just that it's in the anneagram. It's

7:33

a game changer

7:34

for using the anneagram with

7:37

children and in relationship to education. And

7:40

that's a huge deal because

7:42

you can't get in unless you

7:44

have some cred. And you

7:46

get the cred by doing the work you did for

7:49

the treatise slash dissertation. Thank

7:52

you. It's good for all of us. Can

7:54

we use this example of

7:56

you an anneagram 9 getting

7:58

your doctorate?

7:59

to, can you talk some about

8:01

what was hard as a nine, getting that done?

8:04

We've got a question earlier about a nine

8:06

and energy levels and the story

8:09

of Jenny talking to you all about, I

8:11

want to get my masters and, but

8:13

I, I know I won't do it unless I tell you all. And

8:15

so many other people who are nines

8:19

that don't ever get the doctorate that they

8:21

wanted or the masters, or it doesn't have to be in this

8:23

education funnel, but

8:26

whatever it may be

8:27

that don't ever visit New

8:29

York or something. I don't know. Yeah,

8:32

I'll talk about that. I think

8:35

for me, I don't know if this is true of nines. Uh,

8:37

I say that a lot, but

8:40

I tapped into

8:43

and do from time to time three

8:45

in a secure space to

8:49

kind of write down or just kind of keep to

8:51

myself goals that

8:53

I do have for myself. And this was one

8:55

of them for me. I was in the right place

8:57

at the right time, uh, to join

9:00

the program. And it seemed like something important.

9:02

It seemed like something relevant for me, although

9:04

I

9:05

didn't write down specifically what

9:07

I was going to do with that, but it

9:10

felt right. Like it was the thing to do. And

9:13

I wanted to see that through. And

9:15

there were lots of times throughout where it was

9:17

really difficult to keep going. There were lots of

9:19

places where I thought I could just quit and it's not

9:22

going to be that big of a deal. But

9:24

it was important to keep going. And

9:27

the part for

9:29

me to see it from beginning

9:32

to end was

9:35

to find

9:37

specific ways to keep my energy

9:39

levels up. I know that sounds kind

9:41

of whatever, but for

9:44

me, it's, it's literal intentional

9:46

ways of keeping my energy up. So

9:49

focusing on sleep

9:50

and focusing on eating properly

9:52

and drinking lots of water and exercising.

9:56

And again, I know that sounds kind of tried

9:58

and cheesy, but it really does.

9:59

keep my literal

10:02

energy levels up so that it allows

10:04

me the opportunity to do the things

10:07

that are mine to do and the things that I

10:09

know that I should do because

10:12

I want to because they're

10:14

important to me. Can I ask you a question

10:16

about that? Yes. I've

10:18

never thought about this before but

10:21

when you said I knew I wanted to do this

10:23

even though I didn't know what I was gonna do

10:26

with doing this,

10:28

do you think the prospect of

10:30

having to do a big thing and

10:33

then having to do something with the big thing

10:35

keeps nines from doing the first big

10:38

thing? I'm sorry that was very

10:40

confusing language. So you

10:43

mean something that I want to get

10:45

finished getting in the way of some things that I

10:47

need to get finished? I know what you're asking because I thought the

10:49

same thing. Yeah. It's not knowing

10:51

the why does that keep you from

10:54

doing not knowing what you're

10:57

gonna like you said I don't and

10:59

people ask you people have been asking Billy

11:01

great Dr. Shuey what are you gonna do

11:03

now? I mean you got this surely

11:05

to do something with it

11:07

and that's not nine space.

11:10

Right. Okay so to answer your question

11:13

no because if I get

11:15

to a place where I want to do something because that doesn't

11:18

happen that much I'm

11:21

gonna do it. Determination.

11:24

I just am because I don't have a very long

11:26

list of things that I really really want to do and

11:29

so everything that's on that list is gonna

11:31

get done even if I don't know

11:33

the why specifically. I'd like it if

11:35

I could do both. Yeah sure. Know

11:38

the why of why I'm wanting to do something. It might keep

11:40

the rest of us that reality might keep

11:42

the rest of us from adequately supporting

11:44

them. Yes. Especially

11:47

if you're a parent of a nine. Like

11:49

if you're a parent of a nine and

11:51

the nine says I want to do this what is your

11:53

question and it's daunting and big

11:56

the parents question is why? Like

11:59

why do you want to do this? Well I just want to do it. What

12:01

are you gonna do with it after? Well, maybe

12:03

that needs to stop for parents to support

12:06

That's really a good point and the

12:08

and also looking at it from the opposite

12:11

direction. I

12:12

can imagine Joe

12:15

daddy the reference I

12:18

Can imagine him thinking if I

12:20

do this

12:22

People are gonna expect me to do this so

12:24

I'm not gonna do this sure How

12:27

much doing is gonna be required do I get to do

12:29

this and stop or if I do this

12:31

will the in Joe's case Will the church ask

12:33

me then to do this and

12:36

I don't want to do this

12:37

That's how I do questions like okay,

12:39

if I do this then I've got to do this. I do

12:42

that except not with the doing

12:44

Sometimes with doing but more in relationships

12:46

if I say this thing is a five-minute

12:48

conversation gonna follow If

12:51

I if I say this what will happen here if

12:54

if I do this What will be the

12:56

consequences of that?

12:57

I have a great example from our life just

13:00

right now from this past summer our son

13:02

Sam plays lacrosse then

13:04

he plays select lacrosse and We've

13:06

gotten to know he's been with the select team for a while

13:09

and we've gotten to know the parents and the families and

13:11

There's a defender on his team who? Has

13:14

been a deep hole for all all

13:17

their time playing together the last five years

13:19

and it one of the tournaments We were at toward

13:22

the end of summer. We lost our

13:24

face-off guy to a broken wrist So

13:26

we just needed some help at face-off.

13:27

Well Mac who

13:30

is we've his parents are all in

13:33

to any a gram and talk with us all the time

13:35

because Mac is a nine and He has

13:38

a three and a six for four parents

13:40

And so the nine says I mean without

13:43

saying anything to the parents he jumps in to

13:45

help with face-offs Well

13:47

his mom the three Got

13:50

all worked up because she jumped

13:52

to what is this gonna mean? Like do I is he changing

13:54

do I get is this more cost for polls?

13:57

Is this more this do I need to get him all

13:59

these things?

13:59

And Mack just wanted to jump

14:02

in for that time to do face

14:04

off and he's fine without doing face off

14:06

after that. But I think we,

14:09

it's like the rest of us confuse

14:11

that and exacerbate that for nines and they're like, you

14:14

know what?

14:14

Yeah, I give up. Wasn't

14:17

that important? For you as an

14:19

eight spouse,

14:21

was that what you just talked about, you know, if

14:24

it was an iron kid, was that challenging

14:26

a little bit for you or a lot with,

14:29

you know, cause the teaching with eights of,

14:32

if you're going to do something or whatever and you want them to

14:34

cheerleader, you got to be as into

14:36

it as they are. So I can see you as

14:38

an eight, this might not be what happened.

14:40

It's like you as an eight being like, cool, what are we going

14:42

to do with the doctorate? And what's, let's

14:44

do this and the things and because like,

14:47

I don't have those answers. How

14:49

did that play out? Did that even play out? So

14:52

it did not play out in that

14:55

way. What we have been

14:57

talking about recently is we just

15:00

had this conversation. I've

15:02

said for years after living with a nine

15:04

and being married to one for 21 years, that

15:07

I think it's hard for nines

15:09

fours,

15:11

fives, and nines, but really nines, because

15:14

it's so obvious to the rest of us when

15:16

you're not doing

15:18

like the cycle of being

15:20

productive and getting stuff done and accomplishing

15:22

the opposite

15:24

of that is so glaring.

15:26

And what I've noticed with Billy

15:29

that I acknowledged and we discussed

15:31

is I think since COVID,

15:34

he hasn't cycled down

15:36

into the depths,

15:38

the noticeable depths of nine inertia, the

15:42

body at rest stays at rest. And

15:44

so what I applaud

15:47

in him is he's staying busy.

15:50

When Billy describes and that's, that's

15:53

what connects to my eight.

15:55

When Billy describes the

15:57

eating right and the drinking

15:59

fluid.

15:59

and this, you know, getting good sleep.

16:02

All of that, what he's not saying is

16:05

that requires for him

16:07

sticking to the routine

16:10

no matter what. And

16:13

it's pretty awesome to watch. It's

16:15

like he gained some energy from

16:18

the

16:19

base, what you call baseline

16:21

doing. And if you'll describe, that's

16:23

a great term. And what I stumbled onto

16:25

years ago is I don't know

16:29

if this is true. I'm going to stop saying that for

16:31

all nine true for all nines or just me. We'll just,

16:33

I'm going to throw it out there. This is what I do. It's

16:37

like an on ramp.

16:39

The more minuscule

16:43

chores that I do, like little things that have

16:45

to be done, but they aren't really

16:47

important in the grand scheme of things. If I can stack

16:49

one of those on top of the other, then

16:52

it's like the next thing I know I'm able to

16:55

do the important things that are on my to-do

16:57

list or my task list. Whereas if

16:59

I just kind of wake up and cold turkey, try to

17:01

do something really big, that just doesn't work

17:03

well for me.

17:05

You know, if I have to, if there's a big project

17:07

at work, but before work, I worked

17:10

out and ate a good breakfast and did a little laundry

17:12

and picked up the kitchen and took the dog for

17:14

a walk or whatever, then

17:16

I'm warmed

17:19

up to do bigger things, I guess. Absolutely.

17:21

And so I just trick myself

17:23

into those things just never stop.

17:27

And if I never stop doing those

17:29

things, then I never stop. So

17:32

that goes all the way back to basic anagram teaching,

17:35

which is a body of motion stays in motion

17:37

and a body at rest stays at rest.

17:38

Yeah, because I know myself, I

17:40

will win against anybody at a do

17:42

nothing contest. I can

17:44

do nothing better than anyone. And if I stop, then

17:47

I feel myself stopping

17:50

for longer. And then that

17:53

becomes kind of contagious. And then the next thing

17:55

you know, I haven't done anything for days. I just

17:57

can't go back. It's harder

17:59

to get out of that. Yeah. Yeah.

18:02

I wish Joe was here. Because

18:06

he, from 14 on,

18:09

got up and had the routine

18:11

that established his baseline and he

18:13

wasn't in charge of it. It was there

18:15

for him.

18:16

And when we got married,

18:19

and

18:20

then we're all of a sudden big family, and

18:22

that routine didn't work.

18:25

He tried to force

18:30

things in times like we're all going to eat dinner

18:32

together. And you know, he forces things like,

18:35

I think it'd be really great if we could force

18:37

this. Yeah, that's a big word. But

18:40

he wanted it, he kept talking about it until

18:43

we got it. And

18:45

I think he was looking for what you're talking about. But

18:47

we didn't know the Enneagram. And he didn't know that he

18:49

just was looking for a way for things to be

18:52

ordered, and for all the things to

18:54

get done. And

18:56

the thing he knew to do

18:58

to start the day was

19:00

to pray, to do morning prayers. But

19:02

it was the divine hours this

19:04

much for

19:05

every quarter. And I hated

19:07

it.

19:09

And that was a big conflict for us. And

19:11

it was all or nothing.

19:13

It was either we do it every day, or we

19:16

don't do it at all.

19:18

After we got a rhythm as a family

19:21

where parts of those could be adapted,

19:23

or allowed to let go,

19:25

then he was in he was just in

19:28

much better shape to do other

19:30

all the other things that had to be done.

19:33

And I think your idea and your way

19:35

of talking about the ramp

19:37

and the baseline is priceless

19:38

for

19:40

nines. And I'll tell you one

19:43

other way in which that helps for nines,

19:45

I think is as

19:49

a parent. And then if you manage

19:52

people at work, there's this

19:54

thought in my mind where I can't I can't tell I don't

19:57

feel comfortable telling you that.

19:59

telling anybody else what to do if

20:02

I myself am not going as hard

20:05

and as fast as I can.

20:07

I know that sounds silly as a parent, like it's

20:09

your job to

20:10

help guide your kids or tell them what to do,

20:12

but I still feel that way about my own children.

20:15

Like I, how am I expecting them to pick

20:17

up their room and clean up after themselves and help with the

20:19

yard if I'm not doing any of those things?

20:21

And how am I going to tell a

20:23

person that I supervise at work all the things

20:26

that they need to do if I'm not doing all those things

20:28

and probably a little bit more also.

20:30

That's just another way of seeing as well, I think.

20:34

And I just want to say, I think a little touch of

20:36

that is Bill, Dr. Billy Shuey

20:38

Integrity. I think nines

20:41

for the most part have integrity. I

20:43

like to think that.

20:45

I think so too. And you are able to

20:47

verbalize yours. I'm just going

20:49

to real quick put a caveat that that one

20:51

little people watching will get to experience

20:54

it and watch this. That'll be removed from the podcast

20:57

just because the other eight numbers and be like,

20:59

where does this guy get off? Like sixes don't for the

21:01

most part have integrity and sevens

21:03

for the most part. Right. No, I'm

21:05

just just letting you know what I

21:07

deal with here. That. Nines,

21:11

like all numbers, I would like to think have

21:13

integrity.

21:13

I want to answer

21:16

one more piece of the question about nines.

21:18

How do you motivate nines, especially from a parent standpoint,

21:22

but broaden it to your stance

21:25

because so much of what we do in any grandparenting

21:28

is stance focused. And

21:31

I think

21:33

routine is important to

21:36

establish and have for all fours,

21:40

fives and nines. I think that's super

21:42

important, but that's only step one.

21:45

We stumbled upon this, Joel. I don't know if you

21:48

remember or if you, Billy, we were together in a

21:51

live stream in a covid live stream. We

21:54

did when I was talking about as a as

21:57

an eight and Joel, you're a seven. I

21:59

believe.

22:00

that what causes threes, sevens

22:03

and eights stress ultimately, because

22:06

we have high stress thresholds, because we can stand independent

22:08

from what's happening, is our own feelings

22:10

that we have not

22:11

processed for ourselves, right? And

22:14

you know, for you as a seven, you just reframe it,

22:17

threes set them aside, and

22:20

eights, I mask almost

22:22

every possible emotion with anger when

22:24

I'm not being healthy, because that's energy

22:27

providing for me, right? Like I joke,

22:29

but

22:29

why be sad when you can be angry?

22:32

Like, I think eights totally

22:34

get that. And what we've

22:36

stumbled onto, we were talking about,

22:39

so I just brought in that independent

22:41

or aggressive stance, three, seven, eight.

22:44

We were actually started by

22:46

talking about the verbal processing

22:48

that's so noticeable with

22:51

ones, twos and sixes, in that dependent-

22:53

Noticable is a nice word instead of annoying. And

22:55

that dependent or responsive stance. Prevalent

22:58

for ones, twos and sixes. And

23:00

it is, I mean, it's just more

23:02

noticeable

23:03

when you're thinking out loud. So your kids

23:06

who need to talk through

23:09

their thinking, that's very obvious, and

23:11

what we're saying is, give

23:13

them space to do that, because,

23:16

man, when you interrupt a one, two or six, you're

23:19

stopping more than words, you're stopping that train

23:21

of thought. So if you can have the

23:23

patience to set that space, set

23:25

the table for your ones, twos and sixes to

23:28

verbally process thinking, they'll be able to bring

23:30

it up.

23:31

Well, then we got there, take that same

23:34

focus to three, sevens and eights. And you

23:36

and I both realized we were at a point in

23:38

our lives where we weren't okay,

23:41

and it wasn't until we

23:43

started talking out loud with someone, right,

23:47

that we got to, oh, that is that, that's

23:49

the feeling I'm having. Like, that's the actual

23:52

emotion that I reframed

23:55

or set aside or substituted

23:57

anger for.

23:59

It doesn't.

23:59

change for four of fives and nines.

24:02

I think routine is important for

24:04

these children of all ages, but

24:06

what's super important when you want

24:08

to support them in doing is giving

24:11

them the space to verbalize

24:13

a plan

24:14

and that's huge. And

24:17

I would say a lot of,

24:21

if we looked back even with you at

24:23

Billy finishing his doctorate

24:25

was

24:27

me, Will, Sam,

24:29

as a family giving him space to verbalize, you know

24:31

what, this is this is my plan for finishing.

24:33

It's important.

24:35

It feels like commitment to

24:38

for

24:40

the withdrawing stance to verbalize something

24:42

because it means I'm gonna do this.

24:45

Other people know now, right, so

24:47

I can ask for help

24:49

and they're gonna support me

24:52

or they're gonna know if I don't do it, right,

24:54

depending on which motivates you.

24:56

I see accountability that fours, fives

24:58

and nines need. And we couldn't have just said to

25:00

Jenny, okay great, we'll hold you accountable.

25:02

Yeah. We had to say, what's your plan?

25:05

When are you gonna register for class? Right,

25:07

and

25:07

let her get to that. Yeah, and I think

25:10

you had to say it more,

25:12

like more than one time. Yeah. Oh yeah.

25:14

So when are you gonna do that? And back

25:16

to parenting, there's a difference if

25:18

you say that and if I say that. Sure.

25:21

When Billy finished talking about

25:23

getting the doctorate and

25:26

a word that you said, you said determined.

25:28

In

25:29

your teaching, Suzanne, you

25:31

talk about nines being the most stubborn

25:34

number. Are we, are y'all saying the same

25:36

two things? So

25:38

determine, determination from

25:41

my standpoint comes from

25:43

the work that I'm doing in

25:45

corporate America because when you

25:48

talk about eight, nine, and ones in

25:50

the anger or gut triad, it's,

25:55

it kind of puts up a

25:58

natural wall.

25:59

especially for eight, nine, and

26:02

ones who are bosses. Like, ones don't

26:04

want their, the people

26:06

they manage to know that they're motivated by anger.

26:08

Right? There's, you know, there's

26:11

some anxiety around that. And so

26:13

when I got to determination, I think that's

26:16

when I say eight, nine, and ones are all fueled by anger.

26:18

I know that.

26:19

Billy knows that. Ones know that.

26:22

But when you're trying to explain that to other people, the

26:24

better term I found, fuel,

26:28

for what fuels us is determination. So

26:31

it's definitely a nine thing.

26:33

I think it's, I know it is an eight thing. And

26:35

if we had a one here, I think they would say the same. It absolutely

26:38

is. Part of what

26:40

is happening right

26:42

now

26:43

in the world and in this room

26:46

is the Enneagram is being expanded

26:48

and used in places where it hasn't been used

26:51

before

26:52

in education

26:53

and in corporate America.

26:55

You're my kid and I'm proud of you all the time,

26:58

but this is a bigger thing than that. Professionally,

27:02

you have very carefully

27:04

chosen words that

27:06

don't take away from the original meaning

27:09

of the Enneagram teaching. And determination

27:12

is one of those words. And it

27:14

doesn't take away from

27:16

that.

27:17

If you have a child who's

27:19

really stubborn,

27:21

it would be better for the child and better

27:23

for the child's teachers and

27:25

all the people who hear it to use the word determined

27:28

because it has a positive

27:31

and a negative connotation and stubborn

27:33

does not.

27:35

And so I think that what's

27:38

happening and expanding

27:40

and taking the world, taking

27:42

the Enneagram into the world without

27:46

spiritual language, but

27:49

teaching the same concepts that

27:51

are spiritual by nature

27:54

is what's supposed to be

27:56

happening with the Enneagram in 2023. Agreed.

28:00

All right, well that was a good little opener good

28:02

intro and now we're in the

28:04

thick of it. So first off

28:07

Joey and Billy What year

28:09

are your boys going into? We

28:11

have two high schoolers now. We have a senior and

28:14

a freshman. Okay, and Suzanne

28:16

you have sent

28:17

For through the gamut gamut.

28:20

That's the name of that thing

28:21

gamut

28:24

So first question is about this year

28:26

for the two of you as parents What

28:28

is the summers about over like

28:31

what's going on? What's the biggest struggles right now?

28:34

What is different this year

28:37

than past years? You're

28:39

on okay so

28:42

When we're coming to do a podcast on any gram

28:44

of parenting inevitably you start thinking about okay

28:47

what's been happening in our parenting journey, right

28:49

and I have to

28:52

say this is a Reminder

28:54

that

28:55

if you can apply this to parenting

28:57

it will make a world of difference

29:00

because

29:02

Will Shuey our for who

29:05

is a senior? Has

29:07

learned how to be productive and

29:10

he does it pretty regularly and

29:12

I think he does it with the

29:15

ease That other

29:17

fours may not have for two reasons. He

29:20

has his withdrawing father

29:22

who is showing him that it can be done

29:24

consistently

29:26

second we understand

29:29

him and

29:30

That's what fours need is to be understood.

29:32

And so we get to this very

29:35

special place Where

29:37

he's going to leave us like

29:40

all kids should I think about I Was

29:43

so excited to go off to college and he's he's

29:46

great and he's gonna be ready. So So

29:49

will it's been more than you

29:51

know, man, you got a calm app Where

29:54

where are you applying how you know, it's it's this

29:57

the touches in on what he's getting he done

29:59

to prepare for that.

30:02

For our seven,

30:04

you know, we say sevens, the aggressive

30:07

stance, the three sevens and eight, they all need to

30:09

bring up feeling. That's

30:12

not always simple to foster

30:14

in your child, especially if you are a feeling

30:18

last parent. So when I

30:20

look at what we've dealt with with Sam

30:22

the most recently as he

30:25

makes this journey into high school,

30:28

it's less about

30:29

be more emotional, have more feelings,

30:32

and more about we are

30:34

consistently working with him on

30:36

his awareness of other people.

30:40

And so I think three sevens and eight, yeah, we need to bring up

30:42

feeling, but what we really need to work on

30:44

is our awareness of other people.

30:46

As a seven, I think I know exactly what you're

30:48

saying. Can you talk more

30:51

about that though? Sure. It's don't

30:53

leave, you know, when

30:56

you go from one thing to the next, don't leave a mess

30:58

behind you for someone else. Be aware of, like

31:01

our language for Sam is, Will's about to go to

31:03

college, you're four years from that, but you're gonna have

31:05

a roommate. And

31:05

your roommate's not gonna like living with you because

31:08

you can be kind of

31:10

messy. You know, you need to be aware of that. When

31:13

you eat in the kitchen,

31:15

clean up after yourself. Don't be aware

31:18

that someone else is coming behind you to do it. Don't

31:20

have us do that.

31:22

A, for a seven specifically,

31:25

he's so

31:27

anticipatory. My, you know,

31:30

my language, if I'm gonna just

31:32

bring that full circle, my language for

31:34

eight, nine, and ones is that they're fueled,

31:36

that mom mentioned the new language, that they're fueled by

31:39

determination.

31:40

My language for twos, threes, and fours is that

31:42

they're fueled by comparison.

31:44

My language for five, sixes, and seven is

31:46

what fuels you is anticipation.

31:49

So it's a fear can be

31:52

part of that, but man, it's all about anticipating.

31:55

And

31:56

sevens, Joel, you know this,

31:59

you're in the thing.

33:55

you've

34:00

done something for your brain, something for your health and something

34:02

for someone else. We're trying to instill

34:07

that routine in him. And the anticipatory

34:10

regulation, a

34:13

way to help with that is to

34:16

lay out the plan.

34:18

So we're gonna do this and then we're gonna

34:20

do that. And then there isn't anything else after

34:22

that.

34:23

So while we're in the thing and

34:25

you're looking to the next thing, there is

34:27

no more next thing. That's the end of it

34:29

for now until you

34:32

focus on your brain and focus on your health and focus on

34:34

someone else and then the cycle can go back.

34:36

We're trying to dump on all of these

34:39

catch phrases that we hope are pressing

34:41

the right buttons. Another one being work

34:43

hard, play hard. I found myself over

34:45

and over when we're dealing with,

34:49

we're going through a rough patch with Sam. In

34:51

the school year. Using the language, you

34:53

can have it all.

34:56

Cause that sounds pretty good. I would imagine 207,

34:59

it sounds great. And what I mean

35:01

by that is, if you want to in

35:03

a given day, be on your phone for two

35:05

hours, eat some junk food,

35:08

watch a movie, cool.

35:11

And you have to pick up after

35:13

yourself and you have to eat something healthy and you

35:15

have to work on your lacrosse game and you have to read

35:18

and you have to study

35:20

and you have to sleep at some point too, but

35:22

you can have it all.

35:24

Here's what all looks like. The

35:27

thing that I think is so important about

35:29

everything y'all just said, is we keep

35:31

talking about the Enneagram being

35:34

one tool, but not the only tool.

35:36

And we often talk about the

35:38

fact that

35:40

some people don't have any tools.

35:42

And so they're just in this, what am I going to

35:44

do with this child? And they're so different

35:47

and I don't know what to do with them and I don't have

35:49

any tools. The thing I'm building

35:51

up to is,

35:53

and having the Enneagram as a tool leads

35:55

to creating other tools

35:57

that are helpful for you and for your

35:59

kids.

36:00

And it's not a, okay,

36:02

I'm here now. It's

36:06

I kind of am grasping the anti-gram. Now

36:08

what does that mean?

36:10

And what you guys do with anti-gram

36:12

and parenting is

36:14

answer that question. Here's what it means. Go

36:16

back to the original question for

36:19

you, Suzanne,

36:20

over the, God, how

36:22

many years? Yeah, from 78 to 2006?

36:27

Yeah,

36:31

having kids go to school. Yeah.

36:35

Sorry to put that out there for

36:38

people to know about Suzanne. One,

36:40

so much changes over that

36:42

stretch. So context,

36:44

of course, can change. But what were

36:46

the hardest years for when school started

36:49

again in your memory?

36:51

For us, in those years,

36:54

we were in smaller churches where

36:56

everybody knew us, everybody knew our kids, and

36:59

many people had comments about expectations

37:03

for our children, and about

37:06

moments if our children failed to live up

37:08

to those expectations.

37:10

And we've been pretty good parents all along.

37:12

We were pretty good parents before we knew the anti-gram.

37:14

We certainly are better now.

37:17

But the thing that we knew had to

37:19

happen

37:21

was we had to be prepared

37:24

emotionally, financially,

37:26

as a couple, and

37:28

in terms of scheduling,

37:31

to be ready for four kids to

37:33

be in two activities

37:35

each,

37:37

for the reality of school supplies

37:39

and tennis shoes and all of those things. So

37:41

we had all of those basic things

37:44

to think about before we could get

37:46

to think about how to motivate and

37:48

what we're gonna do different for this one than we do

37:50

for this one. And

37:53

I think what we did for

37:56

the least, which was

37:58

we had one kid who needed a

37:59

a lot of structure.

38:03

Turned out to be good for all. The

38:07

struggle was that we were in small

38:09

schools where you were,

38:12

your younger siblings were compared to you

38:15

in the school.

38:17

Well, Joel doesn't do that, Joey

38:19

doesn't do that, Jenny doesn't do that, you know, moving

38:22

that up. And

38:26

we had the gifts

38:29

to figure out how to distinguish

38:31

all four of you from one another. And

38:35

we worked with

38:38

two questions. Which one needs

38:40

me the most right now?

38:42

And which one of us has what

38:44

that one

38:45

needs? And we had that

38:47

talk probably 10 times

38:50

a week. I was talking with somebody recently.

38:52

I think it was my friend Brad

38:54

Otts who's been on the podcast. And

38:57

I just commented to him, I

38:59

think we're just talking about kids getting ready to go back to school

39:02

and what's going on. He asked

39:04

me a question, my answer was like, I liked it,

39:06

the places that I went because when I

39:08

was a freshman

39:11

in high school, Jenny

39:13

was a senior. And I liked that. I

39:15

liked having a lot of stuff

39:17

already laid out. There were her friends

39:20

that

39:20

were nice to me, there were people that were jagasses

39:23

to me also. But like there was a good, that was

39:26

a good deal. Then I get to Hendricks where

39:28

all three of you had been. And

39:30

that really worked out well for me. I mean

39:32

that aspect.

39:35

And I just remember really,

39:37

I had the joke in my head when you

39:40

were talking that, you know, he's like,

39:42

oh, well, Joey did this,

39:44

so that I

39:46

had to make it a little bit easier for BJ after

39:48

I lowered the bar from what

39:50

Joey and Jenny did.

39:53

The most consistent question we

39:55

get through DMs is

39:58

where's the test?

40:00

What test is out there for my

40:02

kid? How can I find that? And

40:05

it's a question we get so

40:07

often that I literally have a cut and paste

40:10

response that ultimately says there

40:12

is no test, especially for

40:14

children. And we believe that

40:16

it's clear in there when they reach double digits,

40:19

but it can't be something their

40:21

specific type, but it can't be something that

40:23

you figure out without them because

40:25

it's their motivation and not yours. And

40:28

it's all about observing,

40:30

observing, and there's no quick

40:32

answer. I don't remember where

40:34

I heard it, but I heard someone say one time, anyogram,

40:37

I like tool,

40:39

but the way saying anygram is

40:41

a tool, because it is, but someone said anygram

40:43

is not a test, it's an experience.

40:46

And I like that. I think anygram is,

40:49

it's

40:49

not a test, it's an experience. It's

40:52

such a downer for people when you tell them

40:54

there's not a test. Oh yeah. It's like, oh

40:57

no. Well, then I'll never know my number.

40:59

But then I send them, if you will just go here,

41:01

here, and here on our account, we will go

41:04

through stances because we think that's

41:06

what you can identify early on as stances.

41:09

Yeah. And I understand that too,

41:11

because we live in that world where the faster

41:14

something is and the easier something is, the better,

41:16

and you can do more things. But

41:18

it's been my experience

41:19

that the longer something takes and the more difficult

41:22

it is, the bigger the payoff.

41:24

And we had somebody in a group

41:26

that we taught a while back that said,

41:29

after we had talked through, anti-gramming parenting

41:32

and things to look for and ways to help them,

41:34

he pretty much said, well, how am I gonna do this?

41:37

And the only thing I could think of was, well,

41:40

you love your kids and you'll do anything for them. And

41:43

everybody has enough hours in

41:45

the day to do the things that they make important.

41:47

So if that's really important

41:49

to you, then you will spend the time on it. And if it's not,

41:51

you won't, and that's okay. Yeah.

41:54

How about we go through the stances and

41:56

then however you all wanna break it down if you wanna do

41:59

number by number.

42:00

Question number one, your

42:03

advice for kids struggling to

42:05

transition from summer to

42:08

school starting? That's

42:10

one of the questions I was kind of thinking to myself, like,

42:12

cause it's a transition. And

42:16

by stance, I think for

42:19

three sevens and eights who at the

42:21

end of the day, what we share

42:23

is our love of activity. Like

42:26

threes and eights are processing with doing

42:28

and sevens with thinking, but you

42:30

do second, like we all love to do and be active.

42:33

So transition to school is pretty easy

42:35

for three sevens and eights.

42:37

Ones, twos and sixes who are in

42:39

that dependent stance,

42:42

man, we've all said at different

42:44

times, ones, twos and sixes play school

42:46

really well. So

42:49

going back to school is great because someone

42:51

other than your family is going to affirm

42:53

you for doing the right thing and following

42:55

the rules. And that's a great

42:58

space for ones, twos and sixes. So I think they're

43:00

really excited to get back. Fours,

43:03

fives and nines. I want to say

43:05

my thought for you, cause

43:07

I'm so aware that Billy has

43:09

a nine

43:10

and I'm not sure if this is true for

43:13

all nines, but most nines pretty much say being

43:15

around others gives them energy that

43:17

they can't get on their own. So I think nines

43:20

have it a little different from fours and fives

43:23

when it comes to getting ready to

43:25

go back to school.

43:26

But for all three of you for sure,

43:29

I think it's the toughest

43:31

because it's so tough.

43:34

It's outside pressure you're doing and

43:37

it's taking your energy.

43:40

And you have the least energy

43:42

on the anagram. Yeah, that's what I was gonna

43:44

say. I think it's the most difficult for fours, fives and

43:46

nines because of the

43:48

energy consumption and it's also a routine

43:50

change up.

43:51

That's tough to shift gears for

43:54

fours, fives and nines because now you're having to

43:56

do something different than what you had to do.

43:59

and our orientation

44:01

time is the past. And so

44:03

I remember when school started and there's all the excitement,

44:06

I always thought about all the things I did during the summer

44:09

instead of being in the present or thinking about what

44:11

I was gonna accomplish that school year. So

44:13

I think it's a tough transition

44:15

for them or can be.

44:17

Do you think that's a time that's

44:19

pretty glaring,

44:22

our orientation to time,

44:24

the start of school?

44:26

Because what made me think about that, this question

44:28

Billy is, you're talking about reflecting

44:30

on the summer. At the start of school,

44:32

I'm thinking about

44:34

the basketball season and how great it will

44:36

be for this. And I'm

44:39

thinking about those things. Could you see that

44:41

in y'all have both been teachers and administrators, all

44:43

three of you

44:44

have been faculty and teachers.

44:46

Is that something that's pretty prevalent or

44:48

that you can see from the outside looking in?

44:50

I think what I see more than orientation

44:53

to time is

44:57

location of reference point, which

45:00

is also stance specific. So

45:03

ones twos and sixs reference point is external,

45:05

it's outside of them. That's where the term dependent

45:07

came from for their stance.

45:09

And inevitably

45:13

the start of school is going

45:15

to increase anxiety levels when

45:18

your reference point goes from being outside

45:20

of the familiar you're at home to outside

45:23

of you with a much larger

45:25

environment

45:26

with

45:28

so many more places for your reference point to go.

45:31

Three, sevens and eights.

45:33

Can I say one thing? I think belonging

45:36

is such an important thing for all kids, but

45:38

for ones twos and sixs, it's belonging

45:40

to a group day one. And the

45:42

anxiety that goes with that

45:44

and the temptation to

45:47

not be yourself

45:48

when you've been able to be yourself as a

45:50

kid all summer. I think that's a

45:53

huge thing for that

45:55

group of people who are relying on

45:58

how other people are gonna respond. to

46:00

them and make space for them. In

46:02

the moment. So that's bringing back in orientation

46:04

to time. It's I

46:06

can't, I can't, Joel, you and I can rest

46:08

on, ah, we'll make friends. We'll figure it out. But

46:11

a one, two or six is like, no, I need, I

46:13

need this figured out and answered for me today because

46:15

this is where my reference point is. And yesterday

46:17

I planned what I would wear and who I'm going to have lunch with

46:19

so that I would have a safe place to

46:22

be where I could look around

46:24

and see that I'm okay. Yeah.

46:26

Yeah. No internal sense of

46:28

that at

46:29

all. As we keep going on, let's make our

46:31

reference point. The microphone. You

46:33

want the microphone to be my reference point. That

46:36

was a lovely way for you to handle that. Okay.

46:39

Let me read just then. So anything

46:42

Billy on one, two, and six is because we're

46:44

talking about my language.

46:46

I like to remind people is

46:49

regardless of where the hard statistical

46:51

data is on how many people

46:54

are, you know, are each type in the world at,

46:57

you can say, I know people say half the world

46:59

or six as well. You can say with, with

47:01

a very high degree of certainty

47:03

that half the world are the dependent stance.

47:06

So do you have any, any thoughts just from your

47:09

years as an educator talking about dependent

47:12

stance from the parent perspective or

47:14

the,

47:14

you guys talked about

47:16

anxiety. That was the first thing that I thought of, um,

47:19

because there's a lot of new, so there

47:21

will be lots of questions and

47:23

lots of scenarios

47:25

drummed up in

47:27

internally on what the school year will

47:29

be like. Will I like my teachers? Will I have a

47:31

group of friends? Will there be a community

47:33

of people that are, that are like-minded that I can glom

47:36

onto that I can be with that will support me things

47:38

that I can do for them and all these tasks that need to be comp

47:40

like there's just a lot of

47:43

new and, um,

47:46

uh, surrounding the school year and I think

47:48

that's anxiety inducing for

47:50

dependent stance numbers. I would imagine so.

47:53

And I think that's why, um, not

47:55

that's not why, but it is a

47:57

reason why.

47:59

Um, you know, good educational practice

48:02

is establishing routines and procedures

48:04

early on. What are we going to do when this happens? And

48:06

drilling that home

48:08

from kindergarten all the way through 12th grade because

48:10

it puts

48:12

kids minds at ease. And I think, you

48:15

know, ones and sixes and to

48:17

a degree twos as well can thrive

48:19

on that, that comfort

48:22

and security and knowing how things are

48:24

going to go at least a little bit when they're in their classrooms.

48:28

Yeah, I don't know if this is going to be helpful or if it's

48:31

just me talking. So what

48:33

if you can stop me in the middle if it's just me talking.

48:36

But I, as

48:38

a dependent to came

48:41

to SMU, I graduated from high

48:43

school in three and a half years. And so

48:45

I came at the semester.

48:48

And they put me in a room

48:50

in a dorm with that had three

48:52

beds with two seniors.

48:56

And they were each in sorority.

48:59

So it's second semester, two seniors, they're

49:01

each in a sorority.

49:02

I'm new on campus, there are no, here's

49:04

how you get to know people come to this,

49:07

here's a what's it.

49:09

And that reality changed

49:11

my life.

49:12

Now there's two sides to everything. And

49:14

it meant that college life for me was not a thing.

49:17

Because there was no way for me to get at a school

49:20

like SMU, you can't

49:22

find your way in I played

49:25

intramural ball and then I played basketball volleyball

49:27

for SMU. And so I,

49:29

I found a team to be part of, but

49:32

I didn't find a way to be

49:34

in with

49:36

people that you want to get together with years

49:38

after like y'all did. And

49:40

so the thing that saved me was

49:43

Carolyn, my best friend since then, and

49:46

my opportunity to get off campus. So I got

49:48

an education, but I built a community over

49:50

here, because I had to have one to thrive.

49:53

And it was Bishop Lynch High School where I was teaching coaching.

49:56

And and what I'm worried about in

49:58

terms of

49:59

my grandchildren.

49:59

children who are in the dependent stance

50:02

always is do you have,

50:05

do you have people?

50:07

And that's what BJ struggled with the most

50:10

and his siblings were

50:12

not having that struggle.

50:14

And so it's hard to know

50:17

what to do with that. I

50:19

think being in the dependent stance as a child

50:22

comes with its own problems.

50:24

We say about ones, just in general,

50:26

Enneagram knowledge, it's true for children

50:28

as well as adults that they're never angry

50:30

with what they're angry with.

50:33

Would you say as a dependent stance

50:35

person, because this is something I've just now thinking

50:38

of, when we're talking about our

50:40

children, one thing we do talk about and

50:42

are aware of when we're, when we're saying things

50:44

about the children and the dependent stance is

50:46

they're going to be your most emotional.

50:48

They're going to react emotionally.

50:52

Do you think that you can take

50:55

that reality with ones and broaden

50:57

it to this stance to say when you're

50:59

one, two or six comes home and they're

51:01

upset,

51:03

what they're saying they're upset about is

51:05

likely not what they're

51:07

really upset about?

51:10

Absolutely. Didn't even to

51:12

the point of if we go to the parenting side,

51:15

didn't you two

51:17

find that I was upset

51:19

with you about something?

51:21

It wasn't about that. But it wasn't

51:23

about that thing. It was

51:25

about something else. So how from

51:28

a

51:28

being the dependent number in the room,

51:31

how from a parenting standpoint,

51:35

can you get to what the real issue is?

51:38

Somehow my one

51:41

in five parents got there,

51:43

but it felt like I was being ignored.

51:46

Not ignored in a, in a mean

51:48

spirited way, but like they were busy doing other stuff.

51:50

I had to figure it out

51:52

because that's how I brought up thinking.

51:55

That's all looking back though. And

51:58

I think there's a limit to how. much

52:01

verbal processing people should listen

52:03

to because if I keep talking I get

52:06

worse not better. True. You know I start

52:08

talking and there's a place where it's where

52:10

it should stop

52:12

and if somebody doesn't stop me

52:15

then I it

52:16

gets worse

52:18

again. Yeah you work yourself

52:20

into it again. Yeah. Well I

52:22

think that's

52:24

got to be important in all of this with your ones,

52:27

twos and sixes going back to school that when they're gonna come

52:29

home upset

52:31

some of us are a little quicker to react

52:34

than others. You

52:36

may not be reacting to what the actual catalyst

52:39

is for the

52:40

the anxiety and emotion. And

52:44

the thing I would say over and over and over is

52:46

at 72 y'all I

52:49

don't know what I think until

52:51

I verbally get myself there.

52:54

That that's the only way I know how to connect

52:57

to my thinking.

52:58

And so for kids that's got to be

53:01

true and it's real easy if you think about a third

53:03

grader to not pay attention to what they're

53:05

saying.

53:07

And you have to or you can't help

53:09

them get to what they're thinking

53:11

and that's where the answer lies because they find balance

53:13

there. Is it possible

53:15

kind of using what Billy was talking

53:18

about earlier as the nine you know all

53:20

these other things to help

53:23

the productive doing. You'll

53:24

talk about with one

53:27

specifically but I think it's probably true for the

53:29

whole stance and correct me if I'm wrong the

53:32

importance of

53:34

reviewing the day going

53:36

over being able to know

53:38

that

53:40

if that is a practice that happens

53:42

every day of okay what or

53:44

as often as you can of

53:46

what happened today the good and the bad

53:48

like where then

53:52

in my overly thinking head maybe

53:54

this is me anticipating trying to head off head

53:59

off the the future

53:59

future part of this, but would

54:02

that lend to there being less bowling

54:06

pot moments of blow up over

54:09

something, but it's not even the thing? Yeah.

54:12

Well, yes. And the other thing that I think

54:14

is important to talk about, and I'd like to hear y'all talk

54:16

about it, and that's what do you do with

54:19

children who are sixes, who before

54:21

school starts in this transition time, are

54:25

so worried about possible future events,

54:28

that they're worrying about things that probably aren't going to happen.

54:31

And then what do you do with them when they come home from

54:33

school for the first two months,

54:36

and they're worried

54:38

about perceptions

54:41

and all the things without

54:44

being dismissive? Yeah,

54:46

the easy answer for me is to never

54:50

patronize, always listen.

54:53

I'm finding ways to affirm,

54:56

helping them affirm from themselves

55:00

their own thinking. And

55:02

there's a balance in there somewhere,

55:05

because if they talk for days about possible

55:07

future events, it would be easy to cut that

55:09

off because you recognize there's some unproductive thinking

55:12

in there.

55:13

But if they trust you

55:15

enough to verbally dump that

55:18

on you, knowing that you'll listen and

55:20

ride that out with them, let them

55:22

sort of get it out there and then

55:24

gently work them back towards

55:28

productive thinking

55:29

in that safe space, that's a good place

55:32

to be as a parent.

55:33

And the way we say to do that is

55:35

don't answer for them. So when they say,

55:37

what if, what if, what if, don't

55:39

say, well, then we'll do this, then we'll do this. Maybe

55:42

give them the first one and then say, well, what do you think

55:44

if this happens? You're

55:46

getting them to think for themselves to doubt themselves

55:49

less, ultimately. That they

55:51

have it in them to answer whatever

55:53

need arises. I've

55:55

always said that it helps sixes

55:58

if you exacerbate their fear.

56:01

don't do it for a child. Exactly and I never

56:03

thought of it till just now because I don't

56:06

do any ramming kids. But

56:08

one thing you can do is. Walk

56:10

through the plans like y'all were talking about. And

56:13

off say, yeah don't give them some

56:15

other crazy thing but it's also

56:17

a way to say,

56:19

because when you say that to adults what

56:21

you're ultimately teaching is I

56:24

can go there in my head too.

56:26

Right?

56:28

And so maybe the way you do it for kids is you offer

56:30

another solution. I can

56:32

go there in my head too,

56:33

but it's not. Yeah, there is a nuance there

56:36

for sure. And I know

56:38

y'all have both have an awful lot to do.

56:40

Now I wonder if as you go along, you

56:43

could note things that you

56:45

need to speak to in parenting that

56:48

if you're this number,

56:50

don't do that, do this instead.

56:54

I think there's some nuancing there that

56:57

parents are not gonna have because they're gonna go with what they

56:59

were taught

57:00

without

57:01

thinking about it, thinking it through and

57:04

all the things. Put a little pin in that

57:07

for, because we are still on

57:09

the dependent stance. Yeah, we need to move to

57:11

a withdrawing. I was right there. I do,

57:13

just real quick, wanna throw out an example

57:16

of how I know that sweet Josephine

57:18

too is not a one, two or six. Every

57:21

day, you pick up your kids from school.

57:23

How was your day? What did you do today? And

57:26

for forever, first she would say, I forgot.

57:30

I don't remember, I forgot.

57:32

And then she got wise to that, that not working.

57:34

And now she,

57:36

if you ask her, she's, I don't wanna talk about it.

57:38

Yeah, I'm good. Simple.

57:41

I love it, I love it. Sorry,

57:43

yes, next dance. I would make up as a dependent

57:46

parent that something bad happened. Yeah,

57:49

that's what I don't wanna talk about, it would say to me, just

57:52

so you know. The reason I want

57:55

to go to withdrawing next

57:59

is the other thing I was saying. thinking about this morning

58:01

was, man, going back

58:03

to school, there's

58:05

two sides to everything, right? Going back

58:07

to school

58:08

is so great for ones, twos and sixes

58:10

for all the reasons we've already said, but it also

58:13

creates that, you know, anxiety.

58:15

Going back to school for fours, fives

58:17

and nines is good because it's a, it's a

58:19

familiar routine

58:21

and it's routine, right? And

58:24

it promotes doing, you have to do

58:25

so good in all those ways. And

58:29

yes, it's a drain on limited energy, but

58:32

it is also can

58:35

be a struggle because what we keep

58:37

saying with fours, fives and nines is doing

58:40

last,

58:41

whether it's an adult or a child, doesn't mean

58:43

they're not doing.

58:44

It has nothing to do with not doing. What

58:46

it is about is doing

58:49

what they want in the order that they

58:51

like and that they want and picking

58:53

and choosing. And that goes away

58:56

in school. Like school is

58:58

all about outside pressure to your

59:00

doing.

59:01

And I want you Billy to jump in

59:04

on

59:05

the intuitive stubborn response

59:07

that fours, fives and nines all have

59:10

to outside pressure to being told what to do,

59:12

essentially. Yeah, we

59:14

don't like being told what to do. And

59:17

there's a, there's a lot of that in the world, especially when

59:19

you're a kid, like there's always somebody telling you

59:21

what to do.

59:23

And so that's a, that's a, that

59:26

was always a wake up call when school started. Cause you're right.

59:28

It's so much easier to do what you want to do

59:30

and not as much as what you have to do in the summer, depending

59:32

upon what you've

59:33

got going on as a kid in the summer. And

59:36

then the first day of school, you show up and you have,

59:38

you can't be late. You got to go to this class first and then

59:40

that class next. And then you have homework and then you have all

59:43

these other things, but you're right. It's, it's

59:45

both. And it's, I remember when

59:48

school started, that was a little

59:50

hit to the routine where it was kind of comfortable

59:52

and kind of fun doing all the stuff that I wanted to

59:54

do. Now I have all these responsibilities,

59:57

but at the same time it was a new routine, which

59:59

I thrived on.

59:59

And then I knew in my head

1:00:02

I've got to do this stuff anyway, so

1:00:04

Embrace it and move on

1:00:06

Going back to the reference point so orientation

1:00:09

time is the past reference point is internal

1:00:11

So I moved from that external reference point of ones

1:00:13

twos and sixes do this internal

1:00:15

reference point for fours fives and nines I? Know

1:00:19

because I've been married to you as long as I have that

1:00:21

you miss so much Because

1:00:24

of your internal reference point Do

1:00:26

you think fours and fives miss stuff

1:00:28

as well because of an internal because

1:00:30

some in the middle of class They'll just pull inside

1:00:33

Yeah, and I I would also imagine

1:00:35

it it would it takes fours

1:00:37

fives and nines a lot longer

1:00:40

to Meet

1:00:43

new people make new friends

1:00:46

Just because we're kind

1:00:48

of in the background observing

1:00:52

feeling things out

1:00:53

Going out of snails pace what

1:00:56

do y'all think about the uniqueness of fours

1:00:58

and fives and The

1:01:02

cost of that in elementary

1:01:04

school and middle school

1:01:07

That nines really don't Have

1:01:09

to struggle with and fives

1:01:11

in their way are all

1:01:13

They're not as you they're not as outwardly

1:01:16

unique as fours But fives are unique

1:01:19

and they're unique as children

1:01:21

and schools costing them a lot.

1:01:23

Yeah, I fours have

1:01:26

it pretty rough The

1:01:29

younger they are because Relationships

1:01:32

are everything and they crave

1:01:34

that genuineness and

1:01:36

authenticity and Those

1:01:39

words don't resonate with

1:01:41

most young kids. They're all

1:01:43

about You know,

1:01:45

whatever depth and meaning doesn't make

1:01:47

its way into the conversation. So

1:01:49

that's it's tougher for fours for sure

1:01:51

It's helped at our house because we've

1:01:54

been trying to relay that message

1:01:56

to our for four years And I

1:01:58

think now that he's 17 he gets

1:01:59

gets it. Yeah, we knew to say, Hey, guess

1:02:02

what, bud? There's not going to be a lot of depth and meaning

1:02:04

at the second grade lunch table. So let's just prepare.

1:02:06

And it's helped us to along the

1:02:09

way, provide space

1:02:12

for him to,

1:02:13

to more often be able to be himself

1:02:16

in a comfortable setting if that makes sense. So he

1:02:18

goes to a smaller school, he's involved in more

1:02:20

things. People actually can get to

1:02:23

know him because they're just, just

1:02:25

on sheer volume alone.

1:02:27

Right. So he's been able to

1:02:29

do that. So if that's, you

1:02:31

know, that can be helpful for parents if you, if

1:02:33

you have a four and I imagine in similar ways

1:02:36

for a five as well, it's not the same motivation,

1:02:38

but fives want

1:02:40

a specific

1:02:42

space to do things and they want a

1:02:44

shorter, smaller group of friends

1:02:47

who know who really know them. Yeah. With lots of autonomy

1:02:50

and they both understand their need for privacy

1:02:53

and they're not go with the flow type

1:02:55

kids. And so providing similar

1:02:58

space for them to be able to do that, providing

1:03:00

the latitude, like we talk about and nines,

1:03:02

they're a little different in that regard in their

1:03:04

own stance, because

1:03:06

we

1:03:07

just kind of show up and go with the flow.

1:03:09

And we've got some tools to be

1:03:11

able to make that happen where

1:03:13

we can survive and adapt a little bit

1:03:15

easier. Cause we're not looking for the same things.

1:03:18

The only thing I would tag onto that is one

1:03:21

of my more recent ahas

1:03:24

in looking at the, the uniqueness

1:03:26

of fours and fives at the bottom of the Enneagram

1:03:29

is, um, two

1:03:32

things are happening. You know, fours really represent that

1:03:34

heart space and fives really

1:03:37

authentically represent that head space. And there's, there's

1:03:40

such a chasm naturally there. Anyway,

1:03:44

the other element that makes them unique

1:03:46

from all other

1:03:48

children, adults types is

1:03:51

fours are the only number on

1:03:54

the Enneagram who have no line

1:03:56

to the independent stance. They

1:03:58

have no line to three.

1:03:59

seven or eight, so that independence that we can

1:04:02

all kind of reach and get at some point

1:04:04

in our lives, it's not there

1:04:05

for fours.

1:04:07

Fives are the only number on

1:04:09

the anagram who have no line to one,

1:04:11

two, or six. They have no line to the responsive

1:04:13

stance. And so much of

1:04:16

school, surviving in school, is

1:04:19

a combination of either being able

1:04:21

to stand independent from what's happening

1:04:23

and not take it so personally, or to

1:04:25

be responsive, to

1:04:29

realize that there's something happening outside of you and have

1:04:31

this natural response. And I think

1:04:34

that, if you funnel down the issues

1:04:36

that fours and fives have at school, much

1:04:39

of that can be right

1:04:41

there. And I think it's

1:04:44

such a temptation for parents to

1:04:47

try to help their child be

1:04:49

more like other children.

1:04:52

And that's the

1:04:53

worst thing you could do for a four. And

1:04:57

for a five, it's

1:05:00

like a five, even like a fourth

1:05:03

grader would think, yeah, I'm not doing that. And

1:05:06

they're withdrawing. So

1:05:09

it's hard for teachers to read them and parents when they

1:05:11

get home. It's hard to read

1:05:13

what's going on with an internally referenced

1:05:15

person. And it's hard for other kids to read them. And

1:05:18

so fours overextend themselves

1:05:20

in trying to tell other children who they are.

1:05:23

And fives

1:05:24

over withdraw and say, I'm not telling

1:05:26

you anything. Absolutely. Three,

1:05:29

seven, eight. I

1:05:31

mean, we've got the best. But

1:05:35

sadly, because of that independent

1:05:38

reference point, it's not internal, it's

1:05:41

not external. It's wherever we want

1:05:43

it to be. Like what I when

1:05:45

I try to describe that independent reference

1:05:47

point for three, sevens and eights, it's

1:05:50

the world could be blowing up next to us and

1:05:53

we can we notice it. We

1:05:55

can choose to do something about it if we want. But

1:05:57

man, we can just as easily stand right

1:05:59

next to. it and stand independent from

1:06:02

it. That is a superpower

1:06:05

that ends up totally being our kryptonite.

1:06:09

Yeah, but and even hearing that

1:06:11

all I could think of was man I'd like some of

1:06:14

that. Yeah, and

1:06:16

the thing I'll interject here too is

1:06:18

if you're talking start

1:06:20

of school and all that that implies

1:06:23

threes, sevens and eights, Joey

1:06:25

uses term a lot and I think about it all the

1:06:28

time

1:06:29

are comfortable in the space that they take up

1:06:32

everywhere. Yep. And

1:06:34

maybe that's not

1:06:37

how they feel internally all the time, but

1:06:39

to the rest of us, that's how it looks. I

1:06:41

never come across a three, a seven

1:06:44

and eight in any setting

1:06:46

where they're not just kind of comfortable taking up

1:06:48

the space that they have. And the rest

1:06:50

of us all have some inner issues

1:06:52

going on where we defer or we are

1:06:55

dependent upon or whatever. And

1:06:57

to a three, seven or eight, I would imagine

1:06:59

the first day of school comes and they're running toward

1:07:02

the door. Generally speaking, that's

1:07:05

such great language walk because of

1:07:07

course I'm thinking from the dependent stance

1:07:09

and the responsive stance and what's

1:07:12

happening over here for those kiddos

1:07:14

is please invite me into your space.

1:07:18

I don't know how to get there and I want

1:07:20

to be there and three, sevens

1:07:22

and eights don't even notice that we're not aware of

1:07:25

you. We are not personally aware

1:07:26

or they're the ones saying come to my space.

1:07:29

Yeah. Cause this is it. Yeah.

1:07:31

And I'm good with it. You want to come on in, come on

1:07:33

in, but you don't just get to sit

1:07:35

back parents. I mean that's man.

1:07:38

The reminder is your

1:07:40

fours, fives and nines are the ones who need the latitude.

1:07:44

Your ones, twos and sixes need affirmation. You gotta be,

1:07:47

but what takes, I think the most effort

1:07:51

on the part of parents is

1:07:53

parenting three sevens and eights because

1:07:55

they need consistency. And

1:07:58

when you look at what school provides

1:08:01

for these kids. Ones, twos and sixes are

1:08:03

getting two things at school. They're getting that affirmation.

1:08:05

They know how to go after that. They know how

1:08:07

to get it and they're getting it.

1:08:09

And school by its very nature

1:08:12

is teaching them objectivity and

1:08:14

theory and bringing up thinking, right?

1:08:17

Four's, five's and nine's, man, you gotta do at school.

1:08:19

Like it's there, it's there

1:08:21

for you. I think

1:08:23

there's so many elements to school

1:08:26

that teach introspection

1:08:29

because of thinking, right? And wondering

1:08:31

and pondering. So it's there as well. I

1:08:34

think after

1:08:36

you learn how to play with others in preschool,

1:08:39

just the general understanding of what

1:08:41

school offers isn't going

1:08:44

to be

1:08:45

something that three, sevens and eights need

1:08:48

to bring up. It's not fostering

1:08:50

an awareness of others like it does

1:08:52

in those

1:08:54

two year old, three year old don't

1:08:56

take his toy years after that. It's not only when you get in trouble.

1:08:58

Right. So three, sevens and eights

1:09:02

aren't being challenged to bring

1:09:04

up the very thing they need to bring up, I

1:09:06

guess is what I'm saying, which is gonna

1:09:09

go back to the parents then you need to continue

1:09:12

to do it at home. I'd love

1:09:14

to hear y'all run through the numbers

1:09:17

for parents to hear

1:09:19

two things that you think

1:09:22

they could do in the first, in

1:09:24

the two weeks leading up to school, which is now

1:09:27

and the first couple of months

1:09:28

that would be really helpful for

1:09:31

their child in that

1:09:33

stance or if they think their child is

1:09:35

that number because we've begun to do some

1:09:37

differentiation of the numbers while

1:09:40

talking about all of this.

1:09:42

I wanna throw out and then if you're watching

1:09:44

this on the video, just ignore this.

1:09:47

That is a phenomenal question.

1:09:49

I also had a question in

1:09:53

the chamber and time

1:09:55

wise

1:09:56

either one of these questions is gonna be the

1:09:59

last question. most

1:10:00

likely, which means we just get to do it again

1:10:02

really, really soon.

1:10:03

And maybe really soon, just as a part

1:10:06

two, we'll just

1:10:07

kind of pick up where we left off.

1:10:09

So I'm going to ask my question to

1:10:11

the group

1:10:12

and then y'all decide where

1:10:14

we're going to go. If

1:10:17

you could talk to each anagram

1:10:19

number as parents,

1:10:21

if all three of you could do this,

1:10:24

regardless of your

1:10:26

children's number

1:10:29

of what it

1:10:30

what do you need to manage as

1:10:33

a parent as your child's going back to school and

1:10:35

what do you need to do that is not

1:10:37

gonna you will not do intuitively that

1:10:40

you need to intentionally

1:10:43

find this thing. Well,

1:10:45

I hate to take Joel's side. It happens.

1:10:48

It's been happening for years. What I love about

1:10:50

it is the very thing we say all the time

1:10:53

in any grammar parenting and this is not

1:10:55

just for you to identify your kid. You

1:10:57

can't do this work if you're not doing your own.

1:11:00

So I do love the nod to oh wait

1:11:02

parents. Let's yeah, I'm I

1:11:04

let's talk about you. Yeah. Okay. Let's

1:11:07

don't forget my question for

1:11:09

the future. Written. It's written.

1:11:12

And seriously, if we're going to do a back

1:11:14

to school

1:11:15

with y'all, that's part two. We need

1:11:17

to get her done.

1:11:19

Agreed. And then going back to school. Okay. All

1:11:22

right. Well, we can start with twos,

1:11:24

right? Yeah. It's our

1:11:26

podcast. Okay.

1:11:28

Say it again what I'm supposed to answer. So

1:11:31

we're it's a two parter as a parent

1:11:33

that is an anagram to what

1:11:35

is something that you need to manage yourself

1:11:39

about your behavior towards your kids

1:11:42

around them going back to school and then what

1:11:44

is something that you need to do and bring

1:11:46

up

1:11:47

that isn't intuitive to you that you're going to need

1:11:49

to intentionally make a point

1:11:51

to do this thing. And as your daughter of 45

1:11:53

years, I have an answer if you're not

1:11:55

ready. Well,

1:12:04

I need to manage my feelings about

1:12:06

their feelings and their experiences.

1:12:08

Number one, like I need to not get

1:12:10

in that with feelings. I can get in it

1:12:13

with doing and I can get in it with thinking,

1:12:15

but not with feelings.

1:12:17

And when I feel

1:12:19

to this minute, my children's

1:12:22

feelings, I want

1:12:24

to fix them if they're sad,

1:12:26

celebrate them if they're happy, because

1:12:28

I feel them too. The thing I have

1:12:30

to manage is my own feelings

1:12:33

about the feelings and experiences

1:12:36

of my children.

1:12:37

Did I get that one right? I think that's very

1:12:39

well said. The only other way

1:12:42

I would say it is, I think

1:12:45

especially when school starts, to

1:12:49

use because you know,

1:12:51

without stopping to realize and say

1:12:54

to myself, I feel what my kid feels.

1:12:57

You anticipate what your kid's going to feel

1:12:59

and then you over-involve

1:13:01

yourself in forming

1:13:04

an experience where they will or won't

1:13:06

feel that way. That's all correct. I

1:13:09

was pretty good at it. And

1:13:11

by the way, you could do that well

1:13:14

if you were to.

1:13:15

And you take away important life

1:13:17

experience when you do. Yes, absolutely.

1:13:20

You don't have to feel bad, but

1:13:22

y'all are going to really laugh at me for

1:13:25

this, but I think it's really important. And I

1:13:27

thought about it several times while Billy was talking.

1:13:30

And I don't know about other twos, but I bet

1:13:33

they're like me. I'm so into

1:13:35

the relational stuff

1:13:36

that I don't do them. Make sure my kids,

1:13:39

I'm going to literally say this out loud, have breakfast.

1:13:43

Like I didn't do that. I wasn't good at it. I'm

1:13:45

not a morning person. I don't I didn't. I didn't

1:13:47

do that. I didn't.

1:13:51

Pay enough attention to

1:13:53

the tangible things

1:13:56

that they would need because I was focused

1:13:58

on the emotional things.

1:13:59

too much time. So more body

1:14:02

things and more tangible things

1:14:05

are what I would need to work on.

1:14:07

Love it. For time wise, I want

1:14:09

us to stay moving on, but I want us to stay in

1:14:11

triad because that's how Billy and I

1:14:14

come at it from the parenting standpoint.

1:14:16

We say two, threes

1:14:18

and fours. If you're not careful, you're putting your anxiety

1:14:20

in comparison on your kids. So threes,

1:14:23

you have the

1:14:26

line to it. You want to speak to threes?

1:14:28

Yeah, you said that the way that we teach

1:14:30

it in anger and parenting is, um, well,

1:14:33

we, and I know this to be true as

1:14:35

a nine, what we most

1:14:37

easily project onto our kids,

1:14:40

I think is the emotion that's most

1:14:42

easily accessible for each of the triads. So

1:14:44

for twos and threes and fours, it's

1:14:47

that anxiety, shame combination

1:14:49

for five, sixes and sevens, it's fear for eight

1:14:51

signs and ones, it's, it's anchor.

1:14:54

So for threes who experience

1:14:57

that anxiety, shame

1:14:59

combo, just like twos and fours,

1:15:02

it's similar to what you were talking about, Susan, I think

1:15:04

with respect to feelings, how you kind

1:15:06

of pick up feelings of your child

1:15:09

and use that and move on for threes.

1:15:12

It's, um,

1:15:14

sort

1:15:17

of projecting the

1:15:21

achieving and image seeking and

1:15:24

then you negate, um,

1:15:26

some of the more tangible, necessary

1:15:29

components of, uh, you

1:15:31

know, of ordinary

1:15:34

school life that are important. I

1:15:37

mentioned comparison earlier. And

1:15:40

that's my, the term that I

1:15:42

use when I'm teaching in corporate America, um, to,

1:15:45

to encapsulate that uneasiness within

1:15:47

that

1:15:48

two, threes and fours are all dealing with. Well,

1:15:50

they're also in the heart triad. So

1:15:52

there's an awareness of other

1:15:55

people there. And so when you combine,

1:15:57

I'm, what's inside is kind

1:15:59

of messy,

1:15:59

but I'm also focused outside of me on other people,

1:16:02

comparison naturally happens. I

1:16:05

think three parents,

1:16:06

what you tend to rely on

1:16:09

in parenting your child,

1:16:11

especially in school years, is

1:16:13

comparison, comparing your child

1:16:16

to other children and comparing your child's

1:16:18

experience to your experience.

1:16:21

And you gotta watch that.

1:16:22

And the sweeping aside of

1:16:24

feelings that threes are naturally adept at, if

1:16:27

your child isn't a three and they have feelings

1:16:30

and they want to express them and need to express them

1:16:32

and you stifling that is kind

1:16:34

of doing them a disservice in their growth.

1:16:37

Yeah, only thing I would add is I think comparison

1:16:40

leads to competition. And

1:16:43

that my piece with three specifically is, twos,

1:16:45

threes and fours all compare, threes you do

1:16:47

it competitively, like

1:16:50

by nature. Gotta be better than. Yeah. I

1:16:52

think with fours as parents, some of the stuff that we talk about,

1:16:55

same triad as twos and threes is feeling

1:16:58

inadequate as a parent.

1:17:00

A four that I know, talked about that

1:17:02

all the time. He's a phenomenal parent, but because

1:17:05

fours tend to think that way or feel

1:17:07

that way, they don't always show

1:17:09

up to be the best versions of themselves and that

1:17:11

includes parenting because they feel like

1:17:13

there's something missing from their style or

1:17:15

ability or whatever. And for

1:17:17

four parents out there, you're good enough.

1:17:20

You are.

1:17:21

Be the best version of yourself because that's what your kid needs.

1:17:23

And then to take it a step further, similarly

1:17:26

there's just mundane components

1:17:28

of being a parent,

1:17:30

being consistent, being affirming.

1:17:32

Taking launches, picking up the food carpool. Yeah, doing all of the

1:17:35

menial tasks that are required, just embracing

1:17:38

those because your

1:17:40

children need that. And my

1:17:43

consistent tap on the shoulder to

1:17:45

fours is, there

1:17:48

are times inevitably in all,

1:17:51

in the lives of all fours, whether

1:17:53

younger or older, where

1:17:55

you

1:17:57

want your outside world to

1:17:59

match.

1:18:00

the fluctuations that are happening inside.

1:18:02

And so you almost create drama

1:18:05

that doesn't need to be created. Or it doesn't

1:18:07

even have to be drama, it's just fluctuations. It's just a change

1:18:10

from how things are. And I think

1:18:12

you need to watch that because

1:18:14

regardless of what kid you

1:18:16

have, school's

1:18:18

gonna be fluctuating enough. So

1:18:22

the mundane of home could be good.

1:18:24

I think doing the

1:18:26

mundane first, which fours don't do,

1:18:29

is required in school. And

1:18:32

so I think four parents need to really

1:18:35

do the mundane themselves like you were talking

1:18:37

and

1:18:38

model that and then encourage

1:18:41

that. Five, six, seven. Why

1:18:44

don't you lead with the story of the five? We

1:18:47

love that story. When Joy and I put together some focus groups

1:18:49

and we were talking to folks in the LTM community

1:18:51

about their thoughts on parenting,

1:18:54

from their number and from the perspective of

1:18:57

what they thought their kids or at least the stance

1:18:59

they might be in, there was one young

1:19:01

lady who talked about how

1:19:03

she was a seven. No,

1:19:07

she was a five and she had a, we're

1:19:09

talking about the same different stories. So

1:19:11

the story that comes to my mind is she

1:19:14

was married to a five

1:19:16

and they had a young daughter. And

1:19:18

when he came home from work, young daughter wanted to play

1:19:21

with dad. Dad had to retire to

1:19:23

his space for a little while. And

1:19:25

before they came back to the dinner table and then the rest

1:19:27

of the evening together and their language

1:19:29

was daddy's out of people juice right now.

1:19:32

He's going to refill.

1:19:35

So that was neat to hear them sort of

1:19:37

verbalize the

1:19:38

need to replenish

1:19:40

the battery by being alone.

1:19:42

But knowing that that was the process being able

1:19:44

to verbalize it so that it wasn't confusing. Because

1:19:47

I think that happens in homes. The five

1:19:49

is exhausted from all of the interactions

1:19:51

throughout the day that drain all of the energy sources. And

1:19:53

then you come home and you're expected to do it

1:19:56

all over again. And you just don't have it to give

1:19:58

anymore. So you do retire. to your space.

1:20:01

And if people don't understand the dynamic or

1:20:03

what's happening, and there's no language to commonly ascribe

1:20:05

to you, it's, well, what's, what's up with dad

1:20:07

or what's up with mom? Why do they not like us? What's the

1:20:09

problem? Right? So like what Suzanne said earlier with,

1:20:12

would they, you know, they think it's either depression

1:20:15

or anger or there's something awful

1:20:17

happened that day.

1:20:18

Just need some space. And

1:20:21

my, my story that I was thinking of was

1:20:23

there was an, an older mother who

1:20:26

had probably a teen, junior height, a teen

1:20:28

daughter. And, um, the daughter

1:20:30

was likely in the dependent stance and

1:20:32

she would come home with all and want to talk

1:20:34

through her day. And that was very

1:20:37

taxing for the five parent. And she

1:20:39

said, at one point her daughter

1:20:42

says, you know, she's literally halfway through

1:20:44

her story and talking. And she says, mom, I

1:20:46

don't think you're listening.

1:20:48

Let me start over. Oh, that's

1:20:50

great. So you fives,

1:20:53

yes. Um, speak to and

1:20:55

be transparent about the time you need to take in space.

1:20:57

You need to take when you have a kid who

1:21:00

needs you and needs your attention,

1:21:02

it's going to cost you less in

1:21:05

the long run to

1:21:07

give it to them fully the

1:21:09

first time. I'm having a memory

1:21:12

that's lovely of my mama who

1:21:15

was a five

1:21:16

and I never put this together.

1:21:18

She intuitively knew to do

1:21:20

a lot of things.

1:21:22

And my dad was busy, busy

1:21:24

as the,

1:21:25

sometimes the only doc in town

1:21:28

and, um, they both needed

1:21:30

a lot of space at the end of the day.

1:21:32

And I was,

1:21:33

my brothers were older and gone. So I was essentially

1:21:36

an only child. And my

1:21:38

mom would, there were these aluminum

1:21:41

cup glasses, aluminum cups

1:21:44

that were tall like glasses and

1:21:46

they were hammered aluminum.

1:21:49

And literally if they were cold enough, your

1:21:51

lip would kind of stick to them.

1:21:53

She had a hand ice

1:21:56

crusher that you attached like our microphones

1:21:58

are to the cabinet.

1:21:59

crushed ice and she

1:22:02

would bring me that aluminum

1:22:04

cup with crushed ice

1:22:06

and a cold drink whatever kind

1:22:09

I was liking at the time

1:22:10

and she would have

1:22:12

it for me in the car

1:22:14

and she would say I brought

1:22:17

you this tell me about your day and

1:22:20

looking back she would run literally

1:22:22

every day two errands

1:22:24

while I was in the car I had something

1:22:27

to drink so I didn't need to get home to get a snack

1:22:29

she had to get out and run in and get the clothing

1:22:32

the cleaners she had to run in

1:22:34

and get a something

1:22:35

from the pharmacy

1:22:37

and I'm telling stories all

1:22:39

the way home while we get that done

1:22:41

and then she had

1:22:44

accommodated me

1:22:45

and she did all that intuitively and that's

1:22:48

a great

1:22:50

idea.

1:22:52

Sixes. I

1:22:56

have this theory I think

1:23:00

you

1:23:01

arrive on the planet as a one

1:23:03

two or six

1:23:05

as a four five or nine and as a three

1:23:07

seven or eight where I

1:23:10

see that supported in in

1:23:12

our travels and teachings is I find

1:23:16

the largest combination

1:23:19

you know any any parent can have any child

1:23:21

right but I see the largest number of sixes

1:23:23

who had a six parent followed closely

1:23:26

by ones who had a one parent

1:23:28

so if

1:23:30

you look at my theory if you're already born

1:23:33

in your reference points outside of you and your parent

1:23:35

happens to be that stance

1:23:37

you are going to observe and

1:23:39

then absorb what that is all

1:23:42

of that set to say. That's good yeah

1:23:45

like that's good and if

1:23:48

your theory is right teaching

1:23:51

with that

1:23:53

eliminates some confusion

1:23:56

and some questions like I have have

1:23:58

to think about it for a while because

1:24:00

We might be right it

1:24:03

what matters is that you know the stance because

1:24:05

that's how you're gonna parent anyway anyway, right

1:24:08

That being said there is

1:24:11

such an element whether you have

1:24:13

a responsive child or a dependent child or

1:24:15

not That man you

1:24:18

as the parent your child if

1:24:20

they are not a six they

1:24:22

do not

1:24:23

are not concerned with the same things you are and And

1:24:27

You can miss some real

1:24:31

Quality opportunities to connect

1:24:33

with your child where they are By

1:24:37

not requiring that they have

1:24:41

the alert the alertedness constantly

1:24:43

that you have

1:24:45

Yeah, do you have an example of that I

1:24:48

Taught a woman one time who said who

1:24:50

was I think she was a seven She

1:24:52

said, you know, it took me to my

1:24:55

late teen years early adulthood years

1:24:57

She had a six mother to realize that

1:24:59

I could just walk into a public bathroom And

1:25:02

and choose a stall and not wait till

1:25:05

everyone walked out

1:25:07

Like there's just ways that that

1:25:09

six is you you control your home

1:25:12

environment and

1:25:15

I think if you

1:25:17

can practice letting go of that

1:25:19

control a little bit

1:25:22

The gifts that come in relation

1:25:25

to your child whatever

1:25:26

number they are will be great It's

1:25:30

fascinating that that's the example you chose because

1:25:33

it brought to mind for me We you

1:25:35

and I fly a lot and we

1:25:38

use Airport public

1:25:41

bathrooms a lot goes on in there

1:25:44

a lot and

1:25:45

I was thinking when you were talking

1:25:47

there frequently parents I hear with

1:25:49

children and I think to myself That's a six.

1:25:52

She's six. Yeah, she is a six

1:25:55

and that child is being taught to be afraid

1:25:57

of things that they don't necessarily

1:25:59

need to be afraid And

1:26:01

whether you're a counter phobic, leaning,

1:26:04

because remember, six is you're on that spectrum

1:26:06

and you can draw from counter phobic, tendencies

1:26:08

and phobic, whichever way you lean,

1:26:12

you naturally distrust authority.

1:26:14

That's a lot to put on your kid when

1:26:17

they're going to school with a lot

1:26:19

of authority.

1:26:20

Yeah, and it might be important if you're

1:26:22

a six parent to back

1:26:25

up on having your children question

1:26:27

everything. Yes.

1:26:28

Are you sure? Who said that? Like

1:26:31

those kinds of lines, you might want to

1:26:33

drop. Yeah. And needing another why.

1:26:35

You need another why that

1:26:37

doesn't always work. It actually doesn't

1:26:39

work in school when you say,

1:26:42

there's needing another

1:26:44

why in an experiment, but

1:26:46

needing another why we line up this way is not

1:26:49

going to, that's going to beat down some teachers.

1:26:52

I also

1:26:54

never got an answer from the four of

1:26:56

you when

1:26:56

I asked why about something. Why? Well,

1:27:00

why? I don't know. I

1:27:02

just did.

1:27:04

Yeah, that's not a good question. Evidently it doesn't get

1:27:06

answered.

1:27:07

I was going to say, I was smart enough just

1:27:09

to say, I don't know. Don't tell her why. She

1:27:12

thinks she wants to know she didn't want to know. Again,

1:27:15

you got to think the conversation through. It's

1:27:17

a debate. Can you tell her why?

1:27:18

Yeah, that orientation to time thing is a thing.

1:27:21

And to be clear, only two things happen in the men's

1:27:23

restroom at a airport. Okay.

1:27:27

Okay. I'm dying to know what

1:27:29

to do. Can we just say number one and number two and let it

1:27:31

go there because what people could come up

1:27:33

with. So much is going on in there. I was like,

1:27:35

I don't know, not on the men's side.

1:27:37

Well, to tag on to what you said, Susan,

1:27:40

a lot of what we talk about when we're doing anger and parenting, from

1:27:42

the parent perspective is one,

1:27:45

managing the emotion that's most easily accessible

1:27:47

per triad and two, be

1:27:50

careful not to project

1:27:52

so much of your number onto your kids, which

1:27:54

is really easy for all of us to do.

1:27:57

And you were using six as an example, but it's true

1:27:59

for all of them.

1:27:59

for a six, I would imagine

1:28:02

it's really uncomfortable to

1:28:05

know that you have a child that's not

1:28:07

a six when you are, and to

1:28:10

allow them to go through life not having

1:28:12

the same kinds of anxiety that you do. Or

1:28:15

even caution, just the same kind of caution

1:28:18

that you do. Yeah, because you do

1:28:20

it that way because that's how you're wired, but

1:28:22

there's some damage to be done when you project

1:28:24

that onto your kid that's going to,

1:28:26

it's not like you think it is to

1:28:28

me. And so where does

1:28:31

it stop becoming, protecting

1:28:33

your child from potential danger and

1:28:35

harming your child

1:28:37

by projecting perceived danger onto

1:28:39

them when they know that that's not the case?

1:28:42

I'm saying more and more about nines

1:28:45

that when they are in

1:28:47

stress and they're in six, it's

1:28:50

good to be worried about a few things. Oh

1:28:53

yeah. And you can't worry about everything.

1:28:56

So I guess we can move to sevens. Cause Joel,

1:28:58

I was thinking about something that you talked about

1:29:00

when we did this at some point

1:29:03

and you were telling a story. It

1:29:05

was about Jolie when she came home from school and

1:29:08

something had happened. I don't remember exactly what,

1:29:11

but she was upset about it. And

1:29:13

you talked about how your first reaction

1:29:15

was to immediately say, it's okay.

1:29:18

It's not as bad as you think it is. And I'm sure

1:29:20

there were other circumstances and

1:29:23

we're gonna let's

1:29:26

you, you were doing the things that you do

1:29:28

to try to get her to see the optimist

1:29:31

point of view and the brighter side of things. And

1:29:34

then we had sort of talked through

1:29:36

after that,

1:29:37

how Jolie is probably not

1:29:39

a seven and you are. And when

1:29:42

we aren't allowing

1:29:45

our kids to feel hurt or

1:29:47

pain and then work

1:29:49

through that with them or better yet allow

1:29:51

them to work through it

1:29:54

to the extent that they can on their own so that

1:29:56

they have the tools available to be

1:29:58

able to do that for the rest of their lives.

1:29:59

then I think we

1:30:01

kind of miss out there. I agree.

1:30:04

I, you are a nine and

1:30:06

not a seven, but you do have a tendency

1:30:08

in our home to do that

1:30:11

and you can go ahead and say what our 17 year

1:30:13

old said to you in the last year. Yeah,

1:30:16

thank you for bringing that up. Because

1:30:18

it applies to sevens equally, I think. For sure, because

1:30:20

I do it too. Will will call

1:30:22

or sometimes Sam will call more

1:30:25

often will when he was talking about something that's really bothering

1:30:27

him or something that happened that

1:30:29

really upset him. My initial reaction

1:30:31

is to go, okay,

1:30:33

it's going to be okay. This happened for

1:30:36

a reason. We'll know the reason, but

1:30:38

this is how it was supposed to be. And

1:30:41

it's not as bad as as it may be

1:30:44

perceived and and and

1:30:46

and Will doesn't want to hear

1:30:48

that. My optimism

1:30:50

is annoying sometimes is what he said.

1:30:53

His words, dad, your optimism is annoying.

1:30:55

I'm not going to talk about that, right? Like it's okay to see

1:30:57

the brighter side of things and it's okay to

1:30:59

have a

1:31:01

glass. Thank you. A glass

1:31:03

half full attitude,

1:31:04

but I'm missing an opportunity to

1:31:07

build connection with my four.

1:31:11

If I'm acting in a way

1:31:14

that's a little unrealistic and

1:31:17

a little disin genuine,

1:31:20

non genuine. And I don't want

1:31:22

that. Sometimes

1:31:24

a better response

1:31:26

from my point of view is,

1:31:28

yeah, man, that sucks. And I love you.

1:31:31

I was literally going to tell you, I think

1:31:33

the thing I say more

1:31:35

nowadays, the more

1:31:37

people that are in my life, the more I get to say it

1:31:40

is, oh my gosh, that sucks.

1:31:42

I'm so sorry.

1:31:44

And that's it. Don't say anything else. And

1:31:46

then maybe repeat that after they do some more things.

1:31:49

Sounds like you've had a lot of. Oh man.

1:31:52

That sucks. And then ask some sort of question

1:31:56

about what they already said, you know, like,

1:31:58

Oh, it was a red shirt. Is that? Yes.

1:32:01

Yeah. That's,

1:32:03

I'm glad you said that. Cause I, I've done that

1:32:06

too, where I want that connection and so,

1:32:09

but I don't, I don't live in that space very often

1:32:11

myself. So I'm thinking,

1:32:13

all right, what are some

1:32:15

literal ways to stay

1:32:18

to, like I start thinking logically and

1:32:20

objectively asking details. I

1:32:23

don't know the answer to it. I can't fix it, but I want

1:32:25

to keep talking about this cause I think you do,

1:32:28

but I don't know. I don't know the right responses

1:32:31

from my point of view. So I'm going to try and see it from yours

1:32:33

and take it from there. So that's, that's good language too.

1:32:36

And while we're talking about sevens and nines, just

1:32:38

to tap on the shoulder, I know we're not to the, the

1:32:41

doing or the gut tried yet, but

1:32:44

nines, uh, want to avoid

1:32:46

conflict and need to bring up doing, but

1:32:48

feeling is last for nines just like

1:32:51

it is for threes and sevens

1:32:53

and eight. So that's, you can't forget

1:32:56

that. So it's

1:32:57

a, it's a real thing. And

1:32:59

I did one last thing and then moving on

1:33:01

to eight, for

1:33:04

me is a seven. What I had to realize was if my

1:33:07

kid is a seven,

1:33:09

they don't need me to be a seven also with

1:33:11

them. So if they come home and there's

1:33:13

something they've, they've already got the reframing

1:33:16

on board, all the, all the things that you listed.

1:33:18

I think you

1:33:21

have an opportunity from your perspective

1:33:24

if they are in a

1:33:27

gloom and doom, glass half full space

1:33:29

unnecessarily maybe or overtly

1:33:31

or too much, right? You've

1:33:33

got a real opportunity to, to

1:33:36

get them to see from a different perspective

1:33:38

that may not be that way. It's a fine line

1:33:41

on when that

1:33:42

opening has come though. Sure. I think if

1:33:44

you do it too soon, if you do it too soon, they

1:33:47

helped. And if, and then if you don't

1:33:49

do it, what he just stood there, mom, he

1:33:51

just stood there over and over and said, Oh man, that sucks. Well,

1:33:55

I think you just articulated the beauty of knowing

1:33:57

the anagram. What you're doing is constantly.

1:33:59

self-reflecting and discerning on

1:34:02

when best to use all of the information

1:34:04

that you have at your disposal to be the best

1:34:06

parent that you can.

1:34:07

That's pretty awesome. One of the

1:34:10

things I want to add because of something y'all said

1:34:12

and it's for all numbers

1:34:15

and that is I

1:34:17

think it's important that we realize

1:34:20

that children need us to be logical

1:34:22

and that there are numbers that lack logic.

1:34:25

I'm one of them.

1:34:27

I don't have logic on board

1:34:30

so I

1:34:32

can't get to the place and there's a difference

1:34:34

in logic and optimism.

1:34:36

And I can

1:34:39

bring feelings and optimism but

1:34:41

I have to really do some work to

1:34:43

be logical in my response to

1:34:47

emotional problems, my own and

1:34:49

other people's and so that would be a big thing

1:34:52

for her.

1:34:53

And the term I use to

1:34:56

supplement logical, often

1:34:59

we get to it with Billy because he's

1:35:02

so relational. You think

1:35:04

oh it's kind of hard to think oh he

1:35:06

is logical but what it is is objective.

1:35:09

It's objectivity. Instead

1:35:11

of subjectivity. Right. So logical

1:35:14

you don't have to go all the way to logical it's just objective.

1:35:16

It's just

1:35:17

man this is what it is. Like what

1:35:19

Joel has in spades is

1:35:22

objectivity. This is what it is.

1:35:24

He has no line to subjectivity. It's this

1:35:27

is what it is. Well

1:35:27

in your head you see a problem and you're

1:35:29

trying to think of the fastest ways to solve the problem.

1:35:32

Period. Whether they're emotional

1:35:34

issues, physical whatever.

1:35:36

Let's get to the good as quick as we can because

1:35:38

why wouldn't we? Ait's

1:35:41

I'm gonna let you all go first. Can

1:35:43

mic up your kid. The good

1:35:46

mic up my child he's here. Y'all

1:35:49

aren't answering. Making

1:35:52

a business decision. I'm just

1:35:54

joking. When we talk about

1:35:57

managing

1:35:58

the emotions that are most easily accessible.

1:35:59

for

1:36:01

eight signs and ones, that's anger. And I'll

1:36:04

jump ahead to mine first because mine

1:36:06

is not passive aggressive.

1:36:10

Passive angry is the language

1:36:12

that Joey uses because nines aren't aggressive

1:36:14

with anything.

1:36:16

First time I used passive angry with Joe, he

1:36:18

said, where'd you get that? That's it. Your

1:36:21

daughter. Your daughter. And

1:36:24

it absolutely plays itself out. It's me

1:36:26

saying

1:36:28

I am going to engage with my kids but

1:36:32

not being fully present to engage

1:36:34

with my kids. So this is haphazard,

1:36:37

half-hearted interaction

1:36:38

that's very confusing

1:36:41

because my words are saying yes and

1:36:43

my actions are saying no. And

1:36:45

they're going, do you really wanna be here? And

1:36:48

I don't understand, right? So I've had to really watch

1:36:50

myself with that and gotten a little bit

1:36:52

better over the years.

1:36:54

Eight's anger, as we all

1:36:56

know, is it's out and

1:36:58

in your face. We've got

1:37:01

a pretty,

1:37:03

generally speaking, healthy dynamic, the

1:37:05

four of us in our home because things are out

1:37:07

and in the open.

1:37:08

And we use anger all the time. Yeah,

1:37:10

and it's, so it's depersonalized in that aspect

1:37:14

but the authenticity and the honesty is always

1:37:16

there. I mean, everybody's encouraged

1:37:18

to say what they feel and what they think

1:37:20

and that happens.

1:37:22

And that's a good thing. And

1:37:25

I have observed times where

1:37:28

the intensity and the passion plays

1:37:31

itself out angrily

1:37:35

and all those good things are still there, the honesty

1:37:37

and the transparency but

1:37:39

I've watched it tip the scales

1:37:43

from time to time when it became too much,

1:37:45

when it was, okay, we

1:37:48

got the point, we understand if

1:37:50

there was a wrong, we know

1:37:52

where and how and our respective

1:37:54

roles in it.

1:37:56

And there's anything else

1:37:58

from here going over to that. angry side

1:38:00

is only going to be to

1:38:04

everyone's detriment. And

1:38:06

anger is

1:38:08

definitely part of it.

1:38:10

And we gotta remember that

1:38:13

people think our own family thinks

1:38:15

we are angry when we're being intense. And

1:38:18

so the language I like to use more often than not is intensity

1:38:20

and with eight specifically, fast processing

1:38:23

and intensity. Because the

1:38:26

biggest

1:38:27

wall I build between me and

1:38:29

my child is my

1:38:31

reactiveness because I react with

1:38:33

whatever they bring home with a

1:38:36

combination of intensity and fast processing.

1:38:38

So I've already solved it for them and I want them

1:38:40

to get there, like be

1:38:42

there right then. And then I'm robbing

1:38:44

them of their own,

1:38:47

of forging their own path,

1:38:49

which is the very thing I want them to do.

1:38:51

Yeah, that's interesting. Cause what I was gonna

1:38:54

say is eight's have to watch

1:38:56

being dismissive,

1:38:57

particularly of three numbers. And

1:39:00

being dismissive of their experience. Like

1:39:03

you shouldn't let that bother you. That's

1:39:05

just silly. Don't do that.

1:39:07

Yeah, there's a word that

1:39:10

one of the parents and one of our focus

1:39:12

groups use cause I wrote it down and I use this when

1:39:14

we teach. She said, she was

1:39:16

an eight.

1:39:17

I don't want my children to be annihilated

1:39:20

by my anger. Woo, that's good. And

1:39:22

annihilated is a good word in those

1:39:25

moments because all

1:39:28

of the good that comes from

1:39:30

an eight's

1:39:32

Passion. Fast

1:39:34

processing, passion, honesty, integrity,

1:39:37

transparency, all of that is clouded

1:39:39

by those

1:39:40

moments

1:39:41

when that anger

1:39:44

goes over to the other side. What

1:39:46

the kids see then is whoa, whoa, whoa. They

1:39:48

go into like this protective defense

1:39:51

mechanism mode where they're not listening anymore

1:39:54

and no more good is coming from the conversation.

1:39:57

So I think just. And even if you've

1:39:59

forged a bond.

1:41:59

the environment for your child.

1:42:03

Once you got to watch micromanaging your

1:42:05

child's experiences. I think that's just a very

1:42:08

natural state.

1:42:10

And I think ones

1:42:12

and maybe two parents

1:42:14

who each have a one wing.

1:42:18

Hypothetically

1:42:20

speaking. I know a friend who has this.

1:42:23

Yes, I think you have

1:42:25

to be very careful about negating

1:42:28

what your children did by doing it

1:42:30

over

1:42:31

or by saying you missed a spot. Or

1:42:33

you did this, you did that. And the

1:42:35

thing we haven't said that I want to say is that

1:42:39

it all comes down

1:42:41

to

1:42:42

knowing enough about yourself and the Enneagram

1:42:45

to manage how you see. Because

1:42:48

you're not going to see differently. It's what you do

1:42:50

with how you see.

1:42:52

That is what we got to work on. I

1:42:55

worked with a hospital staff years ago

1:42:57

and one of the nurses had been promoted.

1:42:59

She was a one, knew she was one. She'd been promoted and

1:43:02

she was in the same

1:43:04

office space with the people

1:43:06

she was managing. Like in the same office. Like

1:43:09

they were sharing an office with multiple desks. And

1:43:11

what I said to her boss was, even

1:43:14

if you put her in a broom closet, get her

1:43:16

out of the room because she can't

1:43:19

not see the way they're doing it.

1:43:21

So to translate that to our conversation, co-parenting

1:43:25

situation, my suggestion is

1:43:27

the one should not be the one helping with

1:43:29

homework. Agreed.

1:43:32

Well, that brings us up to time, but

1:43:35

we'll yeah, we're going to hop off

1:43:37

of here kind of an abrupt

1:43:40

dismount for the people that are watching live. Thank

1:43:42

you all for watching live and joining us.

1:43:45

And it'll give us

1:43:47

one minute, two minutes, one for hugs and all

1:43:50

the things. And the other minute

1:43:52

to look at the calendar and see if we can

1:43:54

go just keep it going.

1:43:55

That's what I know. Thank y'all so much.

1:43:57