0:10

I am your

0:10

host, Mark McBride-Wright,

0:12

Founder and Managing Director of

0:12

EqualEngineers, and I believe

0:16

that every engineer has a story

0:16

to tell. The EqualEngineers

0:21

podcast uncovers the diversity

0:21

story behind leading engineers

0:25

and those working with the

0:25

profession, championing change.

0:28

Hear from leaders, academics,

0:28

entrepreneurs, and agents of

0:32

change, truly transforming the

0:32

understanding of who engineers

0:36

are and what engineers do.

0:49

Simon Blake OBE joined MHFA

0:49

England as chief executive in

0:54

October 2018, leading the

0:54

organisation to achieve its

0:57

vision of normalising society's

0:57

attitudes and behaviours around

1:02

mental health through training

1:02

one in 10 of the population in

1:05

mental health skills and

1:05

awareness. He is chair of the

1:09

Dying Matters campaign based at

1:09

hospices UK, and the support

1:13

after suicide partnership based

1:13

at the Samaritans. He is also a

1:17

companion of the chartered

1:17

Management Institute. In 2020,

1:22

he was named as a global

1:22

diversity leader and the 2021

1:26

Pride power list. He is a

1:26

writer, campaigner and trainer

1:31

and was awarded an OBE for

1:31

services to the voluntary sector

1:35

and young people in 2011. He

1:35

enjoys running, equestrian

1:40

eventing and his dog. Simon, how

1:40

are you?

1:54

I'm very good, thank you, how are you?

1:56

I'm great,

1:56

really, really delighted to

1:58

finally get some time in your

1:58

busy schedule to talk about what

2:02

I think is something that's

2:02

really really important not just

2:06

for engineering, but any sector

2:06

really to shine a light on,

2:10

which is around the mental

2:10

health off, its off its

2:14

workforce for the positive or

2:14

the negative. And, you know,

2:17

just hear about some of the

2:17

great work that MHFA England are

2:21

doing, how people can can get

2:21

involved. But I in my podcast, I

2:25

specifically also like to get to

2:25

know the person behind the story

2:29

to uncover the diversity story

2:29

of the individuals that are

2:33

sharing their time with us. So

2:33

we like to go back to the first

2:37

section, look a bit about the

2:37

history, look at the

2:40

personality, and then come back

2:40

to the present day forward

2:44

looking with you know, what's

2:44

what's what's happening in the

2:48

future. So, with that in mind,

2:48

I'd like to just take us back

2:51

and find out a bit about about

2:51

Simon Blake, you know, where did

2:55

you grow up? What was the young

2:55

Simon like?

2:57

I grew up in

2:57

Cornwall, in North Cornwall by

3:00

the sea in the year 1974. And

3:00

what was the young Simon like? I

3:06

guess I was adventurous.

3:06

excitable, at times precocious.

3:12

I was very, very outdoorsy. I

3:12

loved being outdoors, I found

3:18

school. Annoying, a little bit

3:18

boring. And at times, I guess,

3:26

didn't really understand what it

3:26

was we were supposed to be

3:30

doing. So Primary School was was

3:30

amazing. He did lots of creative

3:34

stuff and energetic stuff and

3:34

learning in ways which really

3:37

suited me Yeah. And the

3:37

secondary school sort of 35

3:41

minutes on between learning of

3:41

French and learning roads and

3:44

reading books. And all it just

3:44

didn't, it just didn't quite,

3:48

quite suit me. And I guess then

3:48

16 to 18 got went to further

3:53

education college and fell back

3:53

in love with learning again. So

3:58

yeah, outside school, I was very

3:58

much about being outside wanted

4:03

to always be with animals. And

4:03

then my learning sort of

4:07

journey, I guess I was was an

4:07

interesting one that primary

4:10

suited me and then that middle

4:10

section, which may well I guess

4:14

had been to do with with me, and

4:14

who I was much more than it was

4:20

about the experience of of what

4:20

was happening in the school at

4:23

the time.

4:24

Okay.

4:24

Interesting. So it's very often

4:27

people maybe fall out of love

4:27

with things in their life, and

4:30

then at some point later on in

4:30

their journey, fall back in love

4:34

with them. And so it it sounds

4:34

like that might have been your

4:38

relationship with education. And

4:38

so what how would you describe

4:43

your, your school days then and

4:43

that journey into your work in

4:47

life?

4:48

Yeah. So if I just

4:48

start at the FE, so going to Fe

4:53

College I think I learned by

4:53

that point that there was an

4:57

element of self directed

4:57

learning, which I really like. I

5:00

liked going wherever my brain.

5:00

Yeah. Interesting and and that

5:05

for me was very much in the the

5:05

social side of life, the site

5:10

sociology, the psychologies,

5:10

social geography, human

5:15

geography, sort of part of world

5:15

and English and I think so I

5:20

guess actually what was

5:20

happening in school, I hadn't

5:22

really thought about this until

5:22

you just ask question was, I was

5:25

being required to learn quite a

5:25

lot of things that I didn't

5:28

particularly like, or find that

5:28

interesting. And it was, of

5:32

course, before the internet, and

5:32

so you didn't just sort of

5:35

wander through things, but

5:35

that's ready to structure, I

5:39

think I obviously found a little

5:39

bit more difficult than perhaps

5:43

I realised, and then from, from

5:43

further education onwards,

5:47

really, it was accidental, I was

5:47

the first person in my family to

5:51

go to university, and I ended up

5:51

at Cardiff University, because

5:56

it has a good psychology course,

5:56

because a friend was there,

5:58

because I visited there. And so

5:58

I could imagine what Cardiff

6:02

looked like, you know, from,

6:02

from being by in the fields and

6:05

by the stream, and all of those

6:05

sorts of things going into a

6:08

city had felt, I think, a little

6:08

bit intimidating, but found

6:11

Cardiff, good fun, had a great

6:11

time, and was supposed to be an

6:16

educational psychologist, but

6:16

fell in love, had an errant trip

6:22

to the States. And of course, in

6:22

the end, that all went wrong, as

6:25

it was always going to. But I

6:25

did then have the the good

6:31

fortune to get a job as a sex

6:31

educator, rather than back to be

6:36

an educational psychologist,

6:36

which was the plan. And that

6:40

just led to a series of very

6:40

interesting jobs. Which

6:44

ultimately led me to where I am

6:44

now, in terms of mental health.

6:50

Amazing, can you just tell us a bit more than about what those various

6:52

roles have been, and the the

6:55

sort of common thread that's

6:55

gone through each of them?

7:00

Sure. So the first

7:00

project was a sexual health

7:04

project working with boys and

7:04

young men. And so working in the

7:07

south Wales Valleys where

7:07

obviously there have been

7:09

enormous change in terms of, of

7:09

economic opportunities with the

7:13

closing of the mines. And so

7:13

really, even though it was a

7:17

sexual health project, it was

7:17

about masculinity, emotional

7:21

intelligence, mental health, of

7:21

which there was some

7:24

conversations around sexually

7:24

transmitted infections, sex,

7:27

etc. I then became an expert

7:27

because there weren't very many

7:32

people doing that work. So got a

7:32

role where I was training people

7:38

in working with boys and young

7:38

men around sexual health

7:41

masculinity, then ran the Sex

7:41

Education Forum, which is a

7:44

consensus building organisation,

7:44

which brought together religious

7:49

institutions, education

7:49

institutions, health

7:52

institutions, and specialist

7:52

organisations to try to build

7:56

consensus about what we should

7:56

be teaching how and where. And

8:02

from there, then had a role

8:02

which, which was slightly wider

8:05

than that at the National

8:05

Children's Bureau, where it was

8:09

really about addressing personal

8:09

social health education for all

8:13

children, but had some

8:13

specialist roles within that as

8:17

well. So volatile substance

8:17

abuse was a particular focus

8:21

area. Drug Education, we had

8:21

working with bereaved children,

8:26

children with HIV, rural

8:26

children. Wow. And within that,

8:33

that environment, we were all

8:33

the time trying to work out, how

8:37

do we meet the needs of all

8:37

children, young people and what

8:39

they need for health, education

8:39

development, but also how do you

8:43

meet the needs of particular

8:43

groups of children, whether that

8:45

be children in residential care,

8:45

children who are being fostered

8:50

children from black and as time

8:50

minority ethnic communities, and

8:57

gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans

8:57

children. So all the time trying

9:01

to work out? What is it that

9:01

everybody needs? And then what

9:04

is it particular groups of

9:04

children young people need? Then

9:09

I worked at Brooke, the young

9:09

people's sexual health charity.

9:13

And again, that sort of sense of

9:13

making sure that we're providing

9:17

sexual health services that met

9:17

the needs of everybody but also

9:20

met the needs of particular

9:20

groups of young people. But also

9:24

then the relationship between

9:24

our well being our mental health

9:28

and our sexual choices was

9:28

obviously, part of the education

9:32

went to the National Union of

9:32

Students from Brooke, where

9:36

mental health well being

9:36

liberation was a core part of of

9:42

the student movement and of

9:42

students before coming to Mental

9:45

Health First Aid England three

9:45

just over three years ago, and I

9:50

guess running alongside that non

9:50

executive trustee roles, the

9:54

black health agency diversity

9:54

role models, and latterly

9:58

Stonewall And now with the

9:58

support after suicide

10:02

Partnership, which is

10:02

supporting, ensuring support for

10:05

those who've been bereaved by

10:05

suicide, and the Dying Matters

10:08

campaign, which is a campaign

10:08

trying to create open, honest

10:11

conversations around death and

10:11

dying. And I'm also lucky enough

10:16

to, to chair the International

10:16

Advisory Board at headspace. So

10:21

you have some really interesting

10:21

roles as a non exec sort of

10:27

trustee and advisor, running

10:27

alongside that the work of

10:31

Mental Health First Aid England.

10:32

So we've

10:32

had people that I've spoken to

10:35

people that have been interested

10:35

in getting, you know, non exec

10:37

roles. Is it something that your

10:37

approach to then gonna apply for

10:43

or be considered for? Once you

10:43

get to a certain level? Or have

10:46

you done some in your career,

10:46

like proactive planning with

10:50

those that you've joined?

10:50

Formally applying? How does that

10:54

work having that sort of

10:54

concurrent sight to your career

10:58

alongside your, your mainstream

10:58

profession?

11:02

I think it's it

11:02

varies. But certainly, I was

11:05

advised very early on that it

11:05

would make sense to actively

11:09

apply for a role as a trustee of

11:09

a charity. And so looked for

11:15

those opportunities to, to

11:15

secure roles. So you sort of get

11:19

the combination that you're

11:19

proactively looking and then

11:22

people knowing that you're

11:22

looking and then there are

11:25

adverts and there are search

11:25

agencies for some, there's,

11:29

it's, there's non exec, other

11:29

agencies, if you wanted to be a

11:33

non executive in a private

11:33

company or public company,

11:37

associations, I think there's a

11:37

number of ways in but if you

11:41

interested in in roles in the

11:41

charity, and social enterprise

11:45

sector, the National Council for

11:45

voluntary organisations, where

11:49

would have information about

11:49

that on it?

11:54

That is a

11:54

very good resource that we can

11:57

signpost to thank you for that.

11:57

So you've you've that it's all

12:02

quite heavy stuff then that

12:02

you're that you're you're

12:05

leading on the weight that you

12:05

can be carrying, sometimes

12:09

separate in from personal life

12:09

and professional life, it must

12:13

be quite a burden. Sometimes

12:13

were the two sort of fusing

12:17

together. What do you do then to

12:17

to have that headspace for

12:22

yourself? What pastimes Do you enjoy?

12:26

Just a go to come

12:26

back. One step from that. I

12:30

think the thing which is always

12:30

interesting about working in

12:34

social justice, or working with

12:34

around areas of justice and

12:38

equality, is that it's it is

12:38

exactly as you say, driven by

12:42

passion and compassion. And I

12:42

think my sense of all of this is

12:48

my aim is to have a balanced

12:48

life, people will often talk

12:51

about a work life balance. And

12:51

it's probably a bit of a sort of

12:56

a false reality, really, because

12:56

you've got work and life. And I

13:01

think sometimes when you work in this area, you've got the combination of the two. Now the

13:03

challenge of that, of course, is

13:07

to make sure that you don't wear

13:07

being busy, sort of as a badge.

13:12

And yes, that you do have to

13:12

have that, that place and space

13:16

for yourself. So my past times,

13:16

I have a dog, a blue

13:21

Staffordshire Terrier, who

13:21

requires a lot of time and

13:26

attention. It also have a horse

13:26

and I do eventing, which also

13:31

requires a lot of time and

13:31

attention. But they also both

13:38

require me to be present. Yes,

13:38

it's no sort of in between. And

13:42

it is really a space where I try

13:42

if I'm out walking the dog not

13:46

to take my phone with me or

13:46

very, not to be on the phone and

13:51

to be looking around and to be

13:51

present. And then when I'm

13:54

writing, obviously, you have no

13:54

choice but to concentrate on

13:57

exactly what you're doing at

13:57

that time. And they're really

14:00

important to me, and then I'm a

14:00

reluctant runner. I do run and I

14:07

sometimes enjoy it, but mostly I

14:07

do it because it's good for me,

14:12

it gives me the chance to just

14:12

make sure that I'm outside

14:15

getting fresh air and I live on

14:15

Clapham Common so Oh, man is a

14:20

really nice, nice place to live.

14:22

Lovely.

14:22

Again, nice, very nice circuit

14:24

that is, I like the idea of work

14:24

life balance, but actually

14:28

instead it's about living a

14:28

balanced life. I did some I did

14:33

the mental health firstly, the

14:33

England instructor training

14:35

course that I'd highly recommend

14:35

to anyone listening to consider.

14:39

And then within that one of my

14:39

favourite bits was the guest

14:42

speakers who came in. There was

14:42

one in particular that I

14:46

remember a cold chain offline,

14:46

and they spoke about we live in

14:50

such a connected world

14:50

digitally. How can you

14:54

disconnect from your digital

14:54

life and even simple things like

14:57

having a box at your front door

14:57

to put your phone in? And so

15:00

that you create some rules

15:00

create some boundaries between

15:03

having a healthy relationship or

15:03

having a healthy relationship

15:06

with, with technology. And I

15:06

guess it's hard to do now the

15:12

more interconnected we get a

15:12

validated my training before the

15:15

pandemic. So it's even harder to

15:15

disconnect digitally when

15:20

actually we have to use these

15:20

devices to be connected for for

15:26

our work.

15:28

Yeah, and I, at the

15:28

beginning of the pandemic, we

15:31

talked a lot about staying

15:31

connected. And I think it only

15:34

took a few weeks to realise that

15:34

actually, we needed to

15:37

concentrate as much on

15:37

disconnecting as done connecting

15:41

and for people working at home,

15:41

or throughout the pandemic,

15:46

simple things like making sure

15:46

that you pack your computer away

15:49

at the end of the day, rather

15:49

than have it winking at you on

15:52

the kitchen table, or I'd have a

15:52

in the bedroom is really

15:57

important, and particularly then

15:57

at weekends and when to do it.

16:01

So those those acts of moving

16:01

things away, turning off

16:06

notifications on our phone so

16:06

that we only look at our phone

16:10

when we want to see it rather

16:10

than look at it every time

16:13

something pings at us. And of

16:13

course, if you've got Twitter

16:16

and Facebook and Teams and your

16:16

email and WhatsApp and your text

16:22

messaging and the phone, you've

16:22

got a huge amount that can just

16:26

suddenly be be buzzing at you

16:26

and our brains need the chance

16:31

to rest. And if things are

16:31

pinging at us all the time, we

16:34

don't get that. So it is

16:34

important to find ways to

16:37

disconnect. And you know whether

16:37

that's challenging ourselves not

16:40

to look at phones for the first

16:40

half an hour, when we get up or

16:43

the last hour and a half before

16:43

bed or leaving our phones

16:47

downstairs. The challenge, of

16:47

course, is that it's your

16:49

camera. It's your alarm clock.

16:49

And I think that is something

16:54

which I, I increasingly find

16:54

myself moving back to a position

16:58

of actually, I'm going to get an

16:58

alarm clock, yeah, I'm going to

17:01

get a little camera in order to

17:01

be able to take photos so that

17:04

you're not relying on one device

17:04

to do everything.

17:07

My son has

17:07

become my alarm clock recently,

17:09

he wakes up at 7am. His late

17:09

goes from red to green, green,

17:14

meaning you can make noise no

17:14

and get up. And he shouts

17:17

through the monitor Wakey wakey

17:17

wakey. I know been practising

17:24

better than having my phone in a

17:24

different room on charge. So

17:28

it's not, you know, just there.

17:28

So think even its presence near

17:31

you is like subconscious vacuum

17:31

that sucks energy or wellbeing

17:38

from you. So what have been some

17:38

of the key experiences who have

17:42

shaped who you are,

17:44

I guess the first

17:44

and probably the most

17:48

fundamental would be being

17:48

growing up gay in the 70s and

17:53

80s. And that even before I had

17:53

words for or a language to

17:59

describe, it meant that there

17:59

was definitely a sense of being

18:04

slightly different. And I think

18:04

what that did at various points

18:09

was put you into the people who

18:09

were in the wrong side of the

18:13

playground race. And from that I

18:13

learned that there are people

18:18

there is inequalities. I mean,

18:18

this is all adult language

18:20

rather than what I was

18:20

processing age seven. But yeah,

18:23

there are people who would be

18:23

bullied and there are people who

18:26

would bully and there were

18:26

people, that would be nice. And

18:29

that actually there were never

18:29

some sense of unfairness. So I

18:32

think I grew up with that sense

18:32

of unfairness. And that's

18:35

definitely filtered through. We

18:35

also had a special unit as it

18:41

was called at our primary

18:41

school, which was for children

18:44

with Down syndrome. And part of

18:44

our our education at school was

18:50

also about understanding around

18:50

discrimination, and around

18:54

disability and disability

18:54

discrimination. And that was

18:57

where I then did my work

18:57

experience, which then led to

19:02

doing some voluntary work in the

19:02

charity sector, which

19:06

ultimately, if you piece

19:06

together the different bits,

19:08

there was something about having

19:08

done some voluntary work as a

19:12

young person. Yeah, I have done

19:12

some font, which led me to then

19:16

do volunteer work when I was a

19:16

student, which led me to be able

19:19

to say that I had something

19:19

useful to offer when it came to

19:24

applying for jobs Post

19:24

University because I had a

19:27

psychology degree which didn't

19:27

lead you directly to a specific

19:32

vocation. So that sort of sense

19:32

of unfairness at an early age

19:36

and what we learnt at school

19:36

about discrimination definitely

19:41

are things that have shaped me.

19:41

And then ultimately, as you you

19:47

certainly through the sort of

19:47

80s and 90s Yeah, that sense of

19:51

your own difference then creates

19:51

a greater empathy with others

19:57

who who may not fit with in

19:57

tight social norms, yeah. And

20:02

obviously yeah, there's there's

20:02

all sorts of progress in various

20:05

ways at the moment, but my, I

20:05

guess my heart and my mind was

20:09

open to different to diversity.

20:09

And that's certainly been

20:15

incredibly grateful, really,

20:15

really grateful for that,

20:18

because it would have been very

20:18

easy, I think, to have had a

20:22

shut down mind. And when I look

20:22

at the injustices that there are

20:28

in the world now and things that

20:28

I care deeply about, a lot of

20:31

that is about empathy, and about

20:31

having a sense of empathy and

20:35

understanding of other people

20:35

and their experiences. And,

20:40

yeah, if you look around at the moment, that's certainly something that in some to do

20:42

with a bit more of,

20:46

I always

20:46

remember attending our diversity

20:48

talk seven years ago now, and

20:48

one of the speaker said

20:53

something that stuck with me and

20:53

I still use it today, talking

20:56

about equality being like a

20:56

pendulum swing. And actually,

21:00

when you swing too far forward

21:00

in one direction, the privilege

21:04

majority feel like there's been

21:04

too much, you know, growth for

21:08

underrepresented groups. And so

21:08

it swings back you get the

21:11

backlash, you get the

21:11

misconception that you know,

21:15

there's an agenda here and I

21:15

feel like we're in a backswing

21:18

right now with certain

21:18

communities with there haven't

21:22

been too much equality and I'm

21:22

using air quotes here, given out

21:26

and and even on the LGBT strand,

21:26

or the LGB strand in particular,

21:32

you know, when you look through

21:32

the 70s 80s 90s, naughties, 10s

21:36

and the 20s, how much even

21:36

that's gone up and down, and how

21:40

much progress has been made,

21:40

even in the last 15 years, let

21:45

alone the 15 years prior to

21:45

that, I do wonder if the

21:48

generation now coming up, they

21:48

are truly in a better place for,

21:53

you know, the successes that

21:53

stormo have had. And I feel like

21:57

I guess being a gay man myself

21:57

as well. I feel like I've been

22:01

in that bridging generation as

22:01

well with I remember being How

22:08

old was I, I remember labour

22:08

coming in, and New Labour and

22:13

then seeing signs around section

22:13

28. Or it was called something

22:18

different in Scotland. And just

22:18

this, this just this national

22:21

discussion happening, but not

22:21

really making the connection

22:24

that it was linked to who I

22:24

innately knew I was the

22:26

curiosity that I had. I came out

22:26

in 2003. And then I started uni

22:32

in 2005. And I remember starting

22:32

in 2005, and the day I met my

22:37

now husband or boyfriend at the

22:37

time, Cherie Blair was

22:40

celebrating the civil

22:40

partnership reception for the

22:43

civil partnership act coming

22:43

out. No, when I did advanced,

22:46

higher French at school, I

22:46

remember learning about France

22:50

having this thing called loot

22:50

packs, and it was some sort of

22:53

legal recognition that same sex

22:53

couples could have. And I

22:57

remember being at high school

22:57

thinking, Oh, that's brilliant,

22:59

I can speak French, I can move

22:59

to France, I get a boyfriend

23:02

I'll have like just settling for

23:02

the fact that you can't get

23:06

married you can even use the

23:06

married where there'd be no

23:08

legal recognition. So I have I

23:08

for my pulse that I'm wave

23:13

answer from I feel I've

23:13

literally just been on the side

23:17

of progress where I haven't had

23:17

to lose any time in terms of the

23:22

legal status of of how I live my

23:22

life. And I certainly don't

23:26

don't don't take that for

23:26

granted. I think with the trans

23:29

community just know we're seeing

23:29

an enlightenment having happened

23:33

but no are sort of pushed back

23:33

happening at that intersection

23:38

with gender and gender identity

23:38

and for engineering in

23:42

particular, interested get your

23:42

take on this for engineering in

23:45

particular, which is a male

23:45

majority profession, still,

23:48

we're we're still trying to, you

23:48

know, attract more women

23:51

cisgendered women into the

23:51

profession, you know, how that

23:57

plays out with with the trans

23:57

community is it's a question we

24:00

get asked a lot, I run another

24:00

organisation called

24:03

InterEngineering, and we've got

24:03

a lot of trans members through

24:06

that. And it's, you know, being

24:06

a male, you know, cisgendered

24:10

white male, trying to have a

24:10

voice in that space. You know,

24:15

do you have a voice in that

24:15

space? Can you can you advocate?

24:19

How have you been handling the

24:19

situation recently with?

24:24

Well, I think it's

24:24

really important, isn't it that

24:26

all of us, our our allies are

24:26

supportive or vocal use our

24:32

platforms and our voices to

24:32

support equality and I really

24:35

subscribe to the view that none

24:35

of us are free until all of us

24:39

are and that includes the people

24:39

who have experienced the most

24:43

legal freedoms the most economic

24:43

freedom, the most of everything.

24:49

Yeah, power, the most privilege

24:49

and, and so, yeah, making sure

24:53

that we are speaking out because

24:53

we know what happens when you

24:58

don't do you can And you can't

24:58

leave it only to people who are

25:04

experiencing oppression to stand

25:04

up against it because the energy

25:10

the the that is required in

25:10

order to do that. And so we

25:13

always need, you know, I always

25:13

think of with progressive being

25:17

a bit like a snowplough, you

25:17

know, enough pressure to be able

25:21

to move it through. But I think

25:21

we're always standing on the

25:25

shoulders of the people that

25:25

went before and I'm so I am just

25:30

at the bit before you were.

25:30

Yeah, I was involved in

25:34

campaigning against the repeal

25:34

that for the repeal of section

25:37

28. And for the equalising the

25:37

age of consent, and, and I went

25:43

to the party that celebrated

25:43

when we had equalising the age

25:48

of consent, and there were two

25:48

people who were older men who

25:53

were, who were dancing, and just

25:53

say, we never thought we'd be

25:55

legal, let alone, you know, have

25:55

that equal and equal equality

26:02

under the law. But of course,

26:02

what you've now got is there's

26:06

equality under the law in a

26:06

range of different places for a

26:10

number of people, but not

26:10

everybody can realise that they

26:14

you know, whether that's because

26:14

of the home circumstance, or

26:17

because of their school

26:17

circumstances or because, you

26:21

know, the reality is that

26:21

culture hasn't caught up with

26:24

with that legislation. But the

26:24

challenge that we have got now

26:29

is, as always happens to know

26:29

that there is a moral panic

26:33

about trans people. And that is

26:33

a very loud minority. And the

26:42

same fear stories that were said

26:42

about gay men and about lesbians

26:47

and about by people are being so

26:47

about toilets and about safety

26:53

with children and and violence.

26:53

And of course, what that does is

26:59

creates a backdrop against which

26:59

some people will not then

27:07

engaged as a very positions

27:07

become polarised. And whilst I

27:12

Yeah, absolutely, you know, we

27:12

we cannot debate. This is not a

27:18

debate in the way there's

27:18

reported, and we mustn't

27:22

dehumanise people. But one of

27:22

the things which I think is

27:26

really interesting is that

27:26

you've often got people who are

27:29

absolutely understand the issues

27:29

from one perspective, and are

27:33

very pro trans rights and people

27:33

who are absolutely opposed to

27:38

trans rights. And then you've

27:38

got a whole group of people in

27:41

the middle who don't know very

27:41

much, understand very much and,

27:45

and need to learn and to be

27:45

supported to learn and to

27:50

understand and to champion

27:50

equality. And, and that's really

27:54

important in all areas of

27:54

progress, you know, and even

27:59

whether that's around LGBT

27:59

rights, whether that's around

28:03

feminism, whether that's around

28:03

racial equality, we've got to

28:07

find ways as allies as

28:07

supporters of equality to be

28:11

able to have conversations which

28:11

enable people to learn and to

28:15

rethink and to that to re

28:15

educate the I was having a

28:19

conversation with somebody in my

28:19

family the other day around

28:22

people crossing the Channel.

28:22

Yeah, yeah. The views were not

28:26

ones, which I would subscribe

28:26

to. But in the end, yeah, most

28:29

they imagine you just imagine

28:29

that you were in a situation

28:34

where you thought that it was

28:34

worth taking the risk of putting

28:38

your children one under each arm

28:38

and crossing the Channel because

28:42

your your your choices where you

28:42

were, and I'm not saying that

28:46

they've changed their mind, but

28:46

they have at least imagined

28:48

themselves into a scenario where

28:48

I don't believe that it's the

28:53

offer of a mobile phone or the

28:53

Yeah, fantasy of benefits, or

28:58

whatever it is. And I think

28:58

somehow, if you're expecting an

29:03

asylum seeker to have that

29:03

conversation, of course, they

29:06

shouldn't do this for all of us.

29:06

And that is why it's all of us

29:10

need to be to be trying to

29:10

change the dial.

29:13

I always

29:13

say that to my clients where I'm

29:16

we're supporting some employee

29:16

resource groups, and they're,

29:19

maybe they're the first people

29:19

that are championing that change

29:23

in their organisation, they're

29:23

going to be up against that

29:26

friction, that that interface of

29:26

that snowplough pushing through.

29:30

And really, it depends on how

29:30

informed the leaders have been

29:33

with making that way for them

29:33

easier with paving the way we

29:37

always draw. I love a good

29:37

graph, a bell shaped curve

29:40

2060 20 rule, your trip set and

29:40

organisation that are really

29:45

positive, they'll do everything

29:45

they can to support inclusion

29:48

without, you know, give their

29:48

discretionary effort and 20

29:52

trips that are naysayers.

29:52

They'll try and pull everything

29:54

down. They're already polarised

29:54

set in their ways, and then the

29:57

opportunity exists in that 60%

29:57

and the middle now that 20 Split

30:02

either side of that 60 curve

30:02

isn't necessarily

30:04

proportionately represented

30:04

across an organisation, it might

30:07

be disproportionate in terms of

30:07

the hierarchy and the power. So

30:11

really, we're getting in or

30:11

getting individuals to map out

30:14

where that sits in their

30:14

organisation and in their

30:16

personal lives, get some to

30:16

think about right, where can I

30:18

best apply my energies through

30:18

my advocacy, and through my, my

30:24

fight for social justice. And

30:24

one of the ways we've been doing

30:28

that is equal engineers with

30:28

trying to get the male majority

30:31

because we have, I think it's

30:31

86% of the engineering

30:36

profession are male. So there's

30:36

a there's a huge skew there in

30:40

terms of our workforce that may

30:40

have grown up with the themes

30:45

that you're describing, you're

30:45

involved with at the beginning

30:48

around masculinity, mental

30:48

health expectations of what it

30:51

means to be a man, a match or

30:51

take culture, and a workforce

30:55

that's also familiar with

30:55

safety, physical safety, we can

30:58

ask for one mother. So we're

30:58

just really keen in to hear more

31:02

from you. And in your last three

31:02

years, you've been chief

31:05

executive at MHFA. England, what

31:05

changes have you seen in general

31:10

towards mental health?

31:15

So mental health is

31:15

definitely something which

31:18

people are wanting to talk about

31:18

more and more, and I think we've

31:22

seen, particularly through the

31:22

pandemic that focus on well

31:26

being we've seen more

31:26

connectivity at work in

31:30

communities, in friendship

31:30

groups in in in neighbourhoods,

31:35

and we are having more of a

31:35

conversation. Yes, stigma still

31:40

exists, lack of access to

31:40

services that exist, there are

31:43

some groups which are still

31:43

likely to experience well, more

31:50

cultural restrictions on talking

31:50

and of course, men Yeah, is

31:54

really one of those. That's not

31:54

to say that men don't like

31:57

talking and individual men don't

31:57

talk, but actually the

32:00

stereotypes of masculinity in

32:00

that can be harder. So I think

32:05

what we're seeing really is that

32:05

that slow progress, which you

32:09

often see, and the pandemic has

32:09

given a long jump to really

32:14

understand the about well being

32:14

and mental health, there are

32:17

still some parts of mental

32:17

health mental illness, which

32:22

people pretend to talk less

32:22

about, we know that people might

32:26

find it easier to talk about

32:26

wellbeing than about depression,

32:29

or they might find it easier to

32:29

talk about depression than

32:31

around schizophrenia, or they

32:31

might not think is acceptable to

32:37

talk about medication at work,

32:37

even if they talk about feeling

32:41

low or having depression. So I

32:41

think we've got all sorts of

32:46

contradictions and parts of this

32:46

progress. And overall, there's a

32:49

long way to go, we've probably

32:49

just started scratching the

32:53

surface. And, of course, one of

32:53

those bits is a recognition that

32:57

we all have mental health, we

32:57

all have brain, all of us,

33:00

therefore, have mental health,

33:00

and that when we talk about

33:03

mental health, we think about it

33:03

from an asset based approach.

33:07

It's how do we how do we

33:07

resource and support ourselves

33:13

to be able to do the best that

33:13

we can how to manage the best

33:18

that we can through, you know,

33:18

as we muddle on, and muddle on

33:22

through our lives, and we

33:22

sometimes talk about mental

33:25

health when we mean mental

33:25

illness. I think being mindful

33:29

of the language that we use,

33:29

when we're talking about well

33:32

being when we're talking about

33:32

mental health when we talk about

33:34

mental illness and really

33:34

understand what we're talking

33:38

about. That doesn't mean we have

33:38

to be experts. But if you and I

33:40

are talking about mental health,

33:40

let's make sure we know what it

33:43

is that we're that we are

33:43

talking about. So I think we are

33:48

seeing progress, but the reality

33:48

is that there is still too much

33:52

stigma. There are still too many

33:52

times when people don't know how

33:57

to get support. They are worried

33:57

about talking about mental

34:00

health because of the impact it

34:00

might have on their job or on

34:04

their role or within their

34:04

friendship groups. And so, you

34:08

know, we've got to keep on keep

34:08

on having the conversation and D

34:11

stigmatising because until we d

34:11

stigmatise, we won't make the

34:16

progress we need until we

34:16

understand our own frame on the

34:20

world. We won't have that

34:20

empathy that we have around

34:24

inequality around different

34:24

perspectives. And we need to get

34:27

better at understanding how we

34:27

can support our own mental

34:30

health. And that's about this,

34:30

regardless of whether we have a

34:35

clinical diagnosis or not. There

34:35

are things that all of us can do

34:39

to support our well being and

34:39

our mental health.

34:41

Of course, you know, I'm a big believer in MH FP strategy to train up one

34:41

in 10 of the UK adult population on mental health first aid. And

34:43

our masculinity and engineering report from 2019 found that one

34:45

in five engineers reported

34:57

losing a work colleague to

34:57

suicide and a similar number had

35:02

had suicidal ideation

35:02

themselves. So what can we

35:07

change? What can we do to change

35:07

this? And I'd be interested to

35:11

hear more about your progress on

35:11

that aspiration of one in 10.

35:16

So first off, we

35:16

are moving, we're at one in 55

35:21

At the moment, and that's moving

35:21

since the beginning of the

35:24

pandemic, we've trained well

35:24

over 200,000 people. So there

35:28

are a number of people that you

35:28

know, significant number of

35:31

people who are trained and

35:31

understand and able to have

35:35

those non judgmental

35:35

conversations and signposts to

35:38

other forms of support. And then

35:38

when you look at what can you

35:42

do, you know, what we've seen in

35:42

the construction industry is a

35:47

real significant amount of

35:47

energy and time and investment

35:52

of resource in order to utilise

35:52

conversations about mental

35:57

health and use those getting

35:57

support. So the lighthouse

35:59

charity, and the helpline. And,

35:59

and so I think the key bit is

36:03

naming exactly as you've just

36:03

done with you, as you said in

36:06

the report, and is naming that

36:06

there is a problem. And then

36:10

galvanising support around the

36:10

fact that that needs to change,

36:14

and then working out what it is

36:14

that does need to change and and

36:19

then being in for the long haul,

36:19

you know, this isn't going to be

36:22

fixed with a three month project

36:22

or a six month project. It's

36:25

about cultures, within

36:25

organisations. So how do I know

36:29

if I came to work for you that

36:29

you believe that my mental

36:34

health is important? How do I

36:34

know that if I ask for support

36:38

that it's going to be available?

36:38

How do I trust that it is going

36:43

to be in my best interest and in

36:43

my employer's best interest for

36:49

us to think about my mental

36:49

health as part of my overall

36:53

performance in the organisation.

36:53

And if I can build that trust,

36:58

if I can create that culture,

36:58

then of course, we can really

37:02

start breaking down those

37:02

stereotypes Breaking the

37:05

Silence, which creates that

37:05

challenge. And so what we know

37:10

about construction and utilities

37:10

companies and in financial

37:14

services and in others is that

37:14

what Mental Health First Aiders

37:18

can do is create that cultural

37:18

revolution, if you like, be

37:24

champions for good mental health

37:24

in the workplace. So it's goes

37:28

beyond what the the first aid

37:28

role is, it's Yeah, that's a

37:32

signpost, it's the overall

37:32

champions for for change. And,

37:36

but that has leadership has to

37:36

come from the top as well. It

37:39

requires, you know, leadership

37:39

from the top, it requires

37:42

managers to be trained, it

37:42

requires a level of awareness

37:46

and cultural change, or mental

37:46

health. First Aid has to be to

37:51

be part of that.

37:53

When you go on the health and safety executives website, you can find

37:54

guidance, and it's more than

37:59

guidance as statutory

37:59

requirements in terms of the

38:01

number of physical first stages

38:01

that you need within your

38:05

organisation trained up relative

38:05

to whatever size your business

38:10

is. And do you see there being a

38:10

need for that statutory

38:13

requirement for Mental Health

38:13

First Aid.

38:17

So we would like to

38:17

have that statutory requirement,

38:21

and we will campaign for that

38:21

statue requirement. And we'll

38:25

keep on doing so we've had lots

38:25

of conversations with ministers.

38:29

And I think at this stage, there

38:29

isn't the appetite for that. But

38:35

I believe absolutely, firmly

38:35

that it is a case of when not

38:40

if, and that when might be three

38:40

years, five years, 10 years, but

38:44

at some point that that will

38:44

become a reality. And I'd like

38:49

to think that that then becomes

38:49

the minimum. Yeah, they actually

38:53

will recognise that the more you

38:53

do to create that culture in

38:57

which our mental health and

38:57

performance fuel each other, and

39:01

the right support is in place.

39:01

And the better that that will

39:04

be. But any minimum number has

39:04

to be in a culture, which takes

39:09

mental health seriously. And

39:09

you'll know from the physical

39:12

health world, that actually

39:12

physical safety world, you know

39:17

that it was both the legislative

39:17

change that drove some change,

39:22

but also a genuine commitment to

39:22

improving the safety. And that's

39:27

what's so important that

39:27

legislation is both a driver for

39:32

change, but also a marker of the

39:32

minimums and actually be looking

39:36

at how we create that cultural

39:36

change way beyond the legal

39:38

change.

39:39

And that's why I think it'd be interesting to explore in a current company

39:41

structure where they have HR

39:45

reporting systems and HR metrics

39:45

that they look against and

39:49

likewise, our health and safety,

39:49

physical safety, is there are

39:53

there some metrics that are

39:53

readily available now for

39:57

example, where these reports and

39:57

structures could be tweaked or a

40:01

new vertical could be brought

40:01

in, that is then reviewed

40:04

frequently. Where you start to

40:04

solve provide a framework to an

40:09

organisation to track this, that

40:09

therefore then drives the

40:12

decision to invest in a bunch of

40:12

MHFA training, for example.

40:19

Yeah, so I think

40:19

we, the whole area around data,

40:23

I think is really important and

40:23

that we need to get better. And

40:27

we know that some companies do

40:27

have data. So if you look at

40:31

Thames Water, for example, they

40:31

know that they've got five times

40:34

more in mental health incidents,

40:34

or, gosh, what's the word? Can't

40:39

think of the word anyway? Like

40:39

reports? Yeah, for every one

40:43

physical report, there are five

40:43

mental health reports. Now

40:46

they've been tracking that. And that's something that we're looking at, at the moment in

40:48

terms of the data and how we

40:51

might do that, because as you

40:51

say, we really need people to

40:56

understand how to, to make the

40:56

case. Yeah, there's a, there's a

41:01

an economic case and Deloitte,

41:01

in their latest report showed

41:05

that the cost of poor mental

41:05

health to UK businesses between

41:09

42 and 45 billion pounds that

41:09

was up 36,000,000,003 years

41:14

before in 2016. And that was

41:14

before the pandemic, the Centre

41:19

for mental health is estimated

41:19

that 10 million more people will

41:23

need help as a direct result of

41:23

the pandemic. And that's 8.5

41:28

million adults 1.5 million

41:28

children and young people. So

41:33

the economic case is incredibly

41:33

clear. And the bit which I think

41:37

is really important for

41:37

businesses to to reflect on,

41:41

isn't just from absenteeism is

41:41

actually from presenteeism, it's

41:45

from people not disconnecting,

41:45

it's from people you're working

41:50

when they should be on leave.

41:50

And so that cost is perhaps not

41:53

as obvious to quantify, because

41:53

you can see people that it's

41:58

actually the presenteeism and

41:58

the leave ism, and always on

42:02

that, that forms a significant

42:02

part of that cost. So that's the

42:07

economic cost. And then you've

42:07

got the moral cost. Yeah, we've

42:10

got the moral and human impact

42:10

of not taking action of people

42:14

feeling as though they need to

42:14

be at work when they actually

42:17

shouldn't be and people feeling

42:17

as though they have to leave

42:21

jobs, because they don't believe

42:21

that they've got a choice and

42:25

people feeling as though they

42:25

can't connect into sources of

42:30

support for fear of being judged

42:30

and not getting the promotion.

42:34

So there's such a compelling

42:34

case for change. And the

42:39

Deloitte report also showed that

42:39

every pound invested that there

42:42

is five pounds return. So yeah,

42:42

that's, again, a really

42:47

important business metric. But

42:47

it is the combination of the

42:53

economic case and the human and

42:53

moral case, which feels

42:57

incredibly important. Because

42:57

ultimately, remember, work

43:01

should be good for us. If we get

43:01

it right. Work, Work is good for

43:06

us and thinking about that, and

43:06

then making sure we've got the

43:09

systems and structures in place.

43:09

So it is genuinely good for us

43:12

is the awesome part.

43:14

And a good,

43:14

very good. I'm excited to see

43:17

the change that comes in Syria.

43:17

You've spoken openly on social

43:21

media recently about how

43:21

important it is for us to talk

43:26

about the process of dying. And

43:26

when we are living through the

43:30

loss of a loved one, as opposed

43:30

to bottling up and I think one

43:34

of your most recent external

43:34

rules that you mentioned, help

43:38

you're leading in this area. Can

43:38

you tell us a bit more about why

43:41

this is important?

43:44

Sure, I guess if

43:44

you just go back a couple of

43:47

steps into the work that I have

43:47

had done. I tend to what my core

43:54

belief is that when we talk

43:54

about things, it is easier, and

43:59

it is better that we know that

43:59

stigma and shame doesn't help

44:05

anybody. And stigma and shame

44:05

tends to lead to poor outcomes

44:11

and to poor health and poor

44:11

wellbeing. And so, Death and

44:18

Dying feels to me as though it's

44:18

another one of those areas that

44:22

some people find difficult to

44:22

talk about. But by not talking

44:26

about it. We know that people

44:26

can experience all sorts of

44:31

trauma and loss and grief and

44:31

bereavement grief through the

44:36

process of bereavement, which

44:36

they then tried to face alone

44:41

with the obvious impacts on well

44:41

being and mental health. But I

44:46

think for me, it was the

44:46

experience of my brother dying

44:50

and then my mum dying, in which

44:50

I realised how challenging some

44:56

people find it. You know that

44:56

when my brother died, it was it

44:58

was unexpected him As young

44:58

people would rather, you

45:03

disconnect or cross the street

45:03

to metaphorically cross the

45:06

street rather than talk about

45:06

it, and that that wasn't because

45:10

they're bad people, but simply

45:10

because people didn't know how

45:14

to do you know how to have the

45:14

conversation because culture

45:17

we've learned not to talk about

45:17

it. And then we know, similarly,

45:23

where people are bereaved by

45:23

suicide, they often don't get

45:26

the support and help that they

45:26

need and there is increased risk

45:32

amongst those people are

45:32

bereaved by suicide, and of them

45:37

dying by suicide themselves. And

45:37

so we need to be really mindful

45:41

about the support that we need

45:41

and open in the cultures and,

45:45

and create that sort of change

45:45

so that we can help each other

45:48

through what can be some of the

45:48

most difficult times. And I

45:54

learned a lot through the mom

45:54

and my brother of people. Also,

45:59

sharing wisdom and insight

45:59

really helped. And that's it

46:04

really, you know, that death is

46:04

inevitable. Dying is inevitable,

46:08

being bereaved is inevitable,

46:08

managing that experiencing the

46:13

loss and the grief, but also the

46:13

joy that the memory of those

46:16

people can bring is incredibly

46:16

important. And as a culture, I

46:23

think we can do much more to to

46:23

experience that. So the Dying

46:27

Matters campaign, just last week

46:27

had a campaign called I

46:31

remember, which is a sharing the

46:31

memories of people that died in

46:37

people's lives. And it was

46:37

incredibly powerful to see those

46:42

memories and those conversations

46:42

and we've got Dying Matters, has

46:45

got another Awareness Week next

46:45

year, and there's a grief

46:48

Awareness Week, which is towards

46:48

the end of of the calendar year.

46:54

And through all of that, it's

46:54

about trying to normalise

46:58

conversations a bit like we're

46:58

talking about mental health.

47:00

That's, you know, we know that

47:00

people experience mental

47:04

illness, poor mental health, we

47:04

know that people experienced

47:07

bereavement and grief, we know

47:07

that people experience all sorts

47:10

of things in their lives. And by

47:10

talking about them and sharing

47:13

them, then we utilise it pass on

47:13

the wisdom and help people to

47:18

manage those situations as best

47:18

as they possibly can.

47:21

I love it a

47:21

little bit, that sort of

47:23

normalising the conversation. So

47:23

is that when that lightning bolt

47:27

in your life happens that it

47:27

helps you sort of be prepared,

47:31

be ready for it, but also

47:31

getting the enjoyment out of

47:34

what's you know, being cognizant

47:34

of what time you might have left

47:39

and how best to use it rather

47:39

than skirting around the issue

47:43

and never quite tackling it head

47:43

on. It doesn't really help the

47:46

individual and it doesn't help

47:46

the family or friends around on.

47:50

One of the key

47:50

points which palliative care

47:53

doctor Dr. Catherine Mannix is

47:53

really clear about is that we

47:57

don't we so scared of saying the

47:57

word death that the person who's

48:00

dying may not feel able to say

48:00

it and the people that love

48:04

them, and around them don't feel

48:04

able to see it. And therefore

48:07

things that could be set that

48:07

can help people through grief

48:10

through the bereavement are just

48:10

left on. What I learned with

48:16

mums we had three or four months

48:16

of knowing that she was dying

48:19

was the actual content of the

48:19

conversations didn't get any

48:23

easier, because it's difficult,

48:23

you know, when you are talking

48:26

about those things, but the

48:26

process of talking became easier

48:29

if you take the deep breaths.

48:29

Okay, we do this. And just

48:34

because it isn't easy, doesn't

48:34

mean it isn't powerful and

48:37

incredibly important. Yeah.

48:40

Oh,

48:40

absolutely. So you've mentioned

48:42

a bit about construction as a

48:42

sector that you've worked with.

48:45

And I always view construction

48:45

similar, if not a subset of

48:48

engineering in terms of who we

48:48

work with. What what do you

48:52

think are some of the biggest

48:52

challenges facing engineering

48:56

from your perspective over the

48:56

coming years?

49:01

Specifically in

49:01

relation to mental health? Yes.

49:04

So I guess it's like all

49:04

sectors, isn't it? It's about

49:10

facing up to and leaning into

49:10

the cultural change, which is

49:16

which is needed. And as you've

49:16

said, you know, it is a male

49:21

dominated industry. And so that

49:21

can be without the evidence of

49:29

data. Yeah. The starting what is

49:29

the starting point for this

49:32

conversation? Where is what's

49:32

the momentum and the drive? And

49:37

the reason that yeah, the

49:37

construction sector started this

49:42

was because there was evidence

49:42

about the disproportionately

49:46

high rates of suicide. It's, I

49:46

guess the question really is,

49:51

what is what is the burning

49:51

platform? What is the thing that

49:55

is going to kickstart a serious

49:55

conversation So what is it that

50:01

is going to drive people to

50:01

believe that change is

50:05

important. And you talked

50:05

earlier about the statistics and

50:09

the data from your report in

50:09

relation to base suicide, death

50:16

by suicide, but also suicidal

50:16

thoughts and suicidal ideation.

50:21

And therefore, it those are,

50:21

it's that information, which I

50:27

think creates the combinations

50:27

creates the roots and pathways.

50:31

From from my perspective, I

50:31

think the key thing is that it

50:36

doesn't have to be you don't

50:36

have to have the perfect answer

50:39

to start. And I think sometimes

50:39

that people wait and think, have

50:44

I got the silver bullet? We know

50:44

there is no silver bullet? Have

50:47

I got all the answers? Well, no,

50:47

because we never start with all

50:51

the answers. Have I got enough

50:51

information to start? Whether

50:55

that's training, whether it's a

50:55

webinar or seminar, conversation

51:01

within the business? Yes. Yeah.

51:01

All of that information? Is

51:04

there is the evidence that it

51:04

drives positive workplace

51:08

culture. Yes. So for me, it's

51:08

really about saying, let's,

51:15

let's start, let's build on what

51:15

has already happened, because

51:19

there will be some companies and

51:19

some work this has already

51:22

happened, what can we learn from

51:22

that? How do we build on it? And

51:26

how do we just take confidence

51:26

that this is going to have have

51:30

an impact in the workplace, on

51:30

individuals on cultures, and

51:35

also then on outcomes and

51:35

outcomes as well? Very, very

51:40

good.

51:40

Good advice there. And I think your team's what our case study could be a

51:42

good one to look into further.

51:46

So what are you looking forward

51:46

to over the coming year?

51:52

Well, we've, we've

51:52

had quite an extraordinary time

51:56

of it, haven't we all of us in

51:56

various ways, shapes or, or

51:59

forms and and so from mental

51:59

health first aid, England

52:04

perspective, we have got some

52:04

really exciting work lined up,

52:10

we've got the campaign around

52:10

people being able to take the

52:13

whole selves to work, you know,

52:13

we've got the the the numbers

52:18

that we're moving towards them,

52:18

we've got some new new things

52:21

which are not yet at liberty to

52:21

say what they are. But I think

52:25

if you put that in against the

52:25

backdrop, I think what I'm

52:28

really excited about is that

52:28

people are having these

52:31

conversations. Yeah, that wasn't

52:31

that long ago that there

52:35

wouldn't have been podcasts like

52:35

this. Yeah. In, in engineering.

52:39

And, and so we are slowly, you

52:39

know, moving forward, we are

52:44

making sure that that

52:44

conversation continues. And so

52:48

for me, the most important bit

52:48

is that we don't all revert to

52:53

times gone by when, whenever

52:53

something shifts or changes with

53:00

the pandemic, that we keep on

53:00

moving forward that we don't

53:04

say, we want to get to where we

53:04

were before that we say and it

53:07

wasn't good enough before. So as

53:07

we look to the future, we need

53:11

to be better than we were

53:11

previously. And I think that

53:15

there's a critical mass of

53:15

people and business leaders and,

53:19

and organisations that are able

53:19

to make that a reality. So

53:23

that's my, that's my hope is

53:23

that we're not going to just put

53:26

up with where we were before,

53:26

we're going to say, actually, we

53:30

need to stretch we need to get

53:30

better, and really shift

53:33

workplace cultures. So that's,

53:33

that's my increasing hope. And I

53:37

think that there is enough

53:37

momentum now behind your

53:41

workplace mental health for that

53:41

to be a reality. And, again, I

53:46

think that that whole drive for

53:46

change, whether it's within LGBT

53:51

communities, whether it's around

53:51

race, equality, whether that is

53:54

around gender equality. Yep. My

53:54

hope and is that we also will

54:01

continue to make sure that we

54:01

are addressing that because we

54:04

know that oppression and

54:04

inequality impacts negatively on

54:08

mental health and, and so it's

54:08

on all of us. Yeah, all the time

54:12

to be thinking about

54:12

inequalities and oppression as

54:17

we do in workplace mental health as well.

54:21

I think

54:21

that is a really good place to

54:23

end there. Thank you so much,

54:23

Simon. I've really enjoyed the

54:28

chat we've had thank you so much

54:28

for your time today.

54:31

Thanks very much.

54:37

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54:39

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54:43

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