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USA Today's The Excerpt ad-free right now.

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Join Wonder E Plus in the Wonder

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E app. Thanks to

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untreatable cancers. Learn more at

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danafarber.org/everywhere. Hello

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and welcome to The Excerpt. I'm Dana

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Taylor. Today is Thursday, March 21, 2024,

0:32

and this is a special episode of The Excerpt.

0:41

The classic storybook version of Happy Ever

0:43

After often involves meeting someone, falling in

0:46

love, getting married, and starting a family.

0:48

But what if that dream isn't one

0:50

you share? What happens

0:52

when the way you define romantic

0:54

relationships and love doesn't align with

0:57

societal norms? Enter polyamory,

0:59

popularized by reality shows like

1:01

The Peacock Network's Couple to

1:04

Throuple. Are we ready to

1:06

open up our definition of love to

1:08

accommodate these other relationships? Here

1:10

to discuss ethical non-monogamy with me

1:13

is Lian Yao, non-monogamy

1:15

educator, sex positivity advocate, and

1:17

queer therapist in training, who

1:19

also holds a law degree

1:22

from Oxford University. Thanks

1:24

for joining us, Lian. Yeah, happy to

1:26

be here. Thank you so much for inviting me. First,

1:29

what is polyamory and how does

1:32

it differ from being in an

1:34

open relationship or just casually dating

1:36

around? Polyamory comes from

1:38

the Greek and Latin roots meaning many

1:40

love. So, as

1:42

the name suggests, it's about having

1:45

multiple loving relationships, multiple romantic relationships,

1:48

as opposed to an open relationship where

1:50

you typically have one romantic partner and

1:52

then you have other additional partners who

1:54

may be more casual or sexual in

1:57

nature. Still Intimate, but there

1:59

is very much the hierarchy with one romantic

2:01

partner at the top. And.

2:03

Casually dating is, well you know,

2:05

dating. You know in a relationship

2:08

you are exploring your discovering yourself

2:10

your you know trying different flavors

2:12

of and polyamory is a very

2:15

much different from that you nervous

2:17

about engaging in serious intimate relationships

2:19

with multiple people the same time.

2:22

With. The consent of knowledge of everyone involved.

2:25

What? Do you believe is driving

2:27

this shift towards except in

2:29

polyamory? Or at least. A new openness

2:31

to discussing it. I think that

2:33

Lgbt rights and awareness of like

2:35

other relationship dynamics like King King

2:37

Arthur, Fifty Shades of Grey, you

2:39

know, things like that have paved

2:41

the way for polyamory and you

2:43

know to alternative relationship to be

2:45

more widely accepted and understood. or

2:47

at least. You. Know just spoken

2:50

about. I also think that

2:52

the pandemic with a significant factor because

2:54

it was a very isolating period and

2:56

a lot of people have come out

2:58

of it thinking you know I need

3:00

a change, I want to do something

3:02

differently, I want to do more with

3:04

my life and I think polyamory was

3:07

a big shifts you know in that

3:09

respect. People wanting to do relationships differently.

3:11

That. Leonid Polyamory had a new thing

3:14

called Truly or is there some

3:16

historical precedent for what we're seeing?

3:19

So. No polyamory is not anything it

3:21

has been in or something that's been

3:23

done for very long time. It's only

3:25

now that with this move and with

3:28

polyamory, a farmer's pushing for equality between

3:30

the sexes and you know as much

3:33

more acceptance of like claire relationships rather

3:35

than just you one man having

3:37

multiple wives or one woman having multiple

3:39

husbands. And. other thing that

3:41

i would add to dot is

3:43

that monogamy as we currently know

3:45

it is a relatively new phenomenon

3:47

marriage used to be an economic

3:49

decision a political decision you know

3:51

something that would secure and harrison's

3:53

or bring families together and you

3:55

know perfectly with the introduction the

3:57

industrial revolution you know it be

4:00

very much like an

4:02

economic thing, whereas now it's very

4:04

much tied to romantic love and

4:06

exclusivity and we place a lot more

4:08

expectations now on our romantic relationships

4:10

than we ever have before. So

4:13

polyamory has always been a thing, but

4:16

monogamy has also looked different over the

4:18

centuries and so that's important historical context

4:20

to have in mind as well. I've

4:23

been trying to wrap my head around

4:25

the concept of kitchen table polyamory where

4:27

there's a large family unit, but

4:29

not all in it are romantically

4:32

involved. How does that work? Kitchen

4:34

table polyamory is a specific style of

4:36

polyamory where, you know, like you said,

4:39

there is a kind of family-like dynamic,

4:41

but the definition is more

4:43

to do with the closeness of the

4:45

people involved. You know, there are certain

4:47

polyamorous dynamics where partners know about each

4:50

other, but they aren't necessarily, you know,

4:52

friends or they aren't expected to hang

4:54

out apart from birthday parties and special

4:56

events and things like that. Kitchen table

4:59

polyamory is a specific dynamic where there's

5:01

a lot more camaraderie, there's like very

5:03

much an emphasis on, you know, a

5:05

group dynamic as well as individual connections

5:07

between the people involved and

5:09

the idea is that people can sit around a

5:12

kitchen table and have a chat. That's why it's

5:14

called kitchen table polyamory. What about

5:16

cheating? Is it considered unfaithful to

5:19

have an additional relationship out of

5:21

your polyamorous relationship? Well,

5:23

the thing about polyamory and about relationships

5:25

in general is that they are highly

5:28

customizable. You know, even in a monogamous

5:30

relationship, different people have different definitions of

5:32

cheating. Some people think that, you know,

5:34

having sex with someone else is cheating.

5:36

Everyone has different boundaries and you get

5:38

to customize those and talk with your

5:41

partner about what is agreeable for you. So

5:44

in polyamorous dynamics, the same thing happens. You

5:46

know, our definition of cheating may be slightly

5:48

broader, but we also have our own definitions

5:51

of what cheating means and that's going to

5:53

be very specific to each relationship. So

5:56

it is possible to cheat in polyamory, it just might

5:58

look a little bit different. No, it's just

6:01

breaking agreements at the end of

6:03

the day doesn't have to look

6:05

any specific way, even in monogamy.

6:07

And the polyamory as not the

6:09

same as cheating because cheating involved

6:11

assumption of involves lying. It involves

6:13

going behind someone faq. It involves

6:15

an element of non consent worth

6:17

polyamory interviewed specifically in the different

6:19

definition that everyone needs to be

6:21

aware and consenting of the situation

6:23

otherwise. In is just infidelity.

6:26

What? About with in a

6:28

polyamorous relationships, if two people

6:30

ought to spend noticeably more

6:32

time together than with others,

6:35

Is jealousy inevitable in these

6:37

kinds of relationships? I

6:39

would as he jealousy is inevitable. I think

6:41

I'll Jealousy is a very human emotion that

6:44

everyone feels regardless of what their relationship looks

6:46

like. You know their monogamous people who don't

6:48

get jealous and or polio with people who

6:50

that Zola Zola time. It's

6:52

less about. Whether you feel

6:54

the emotion the first place and more about

6:56

what you do with the emotions in a

6:58

monogamous relationship. If someone feels jealous, it might

7:01

be typical for their partner to stop doing

7:03

whatever it is that made them feel jealous.

7:05

Whereas. In Polyamorous dynamics it's much more

7:07

likely that you'll be asked you questions

7:09

like why you feeling jealous, where it's

7:12

coming from, whether it's something to do

7:14

with you or something to do with

7:16

your partner and to you to have

7:18

a negotiation about you know next steps

7:20

polyamory. ultimately you know of very much

7:22

a self discovery Johnny. For a lot

7:25

of people I'm It allows you to

7:27

yeah kind of define what your relationship

7:29

looks like, the a softer customizer, the

7:31

planes, your needs to open communication with

7:33

your partners and so on. Li. And

7:35

you mention that the pandemic. It's some

7:37

people to try new kinds

7:39

of relationships like polyamory. Are

7:42

you worried that your lived

7:44

life will be seen? as a

7:46

sad know not worried about polyamory being a

7:48

trend ah not worried about being a fad

7:50

because it's always been a thing and i

7:52

think it will always be a thing that

7:54

will be some people who come in give

7:56

it a go realize is not for them

7:58

and move on going to be

8:00

some people who go into it, realize that,

8:03

you know, that it's really something that resonates

8:05

with them, and it's something that stays with

8:07

them for the rest of their lives. So,

8:09

you know, I'm all for encouraging people to

8:12

experiment as long as they're, you know, communicating

8:15

with the people around them, as long

8:17

as they're doing their research. And

8:19

you know, they're always going to be bad

8:22

actors in every community, like, that's, that's always

8:24

unavoidable. And so, you know,

8:26

it's part of my work to do

8:28

the education to show people what sustainable,

8:30

healthy polyamory looks like. And,

8:33

you know, relationships are complicated, there are

8:35

always going to be people making mistakes,

8:37

and, you know, that's not going to

8:39

be avoidable. But I also think

8:41

that we need bad representation in order

8:43

to get to good representation. As

8:46

cringe as I find current media representations

8:48

of non-lenogamy and polyamory, it

8:50

is slowly getting better. And I hope

8:53

that in a couple of years, we'll

8:55

see a much better, much broader representation

8:57

of polyamory that will help people with

9:00

kind of figuring out how it looks in

9:02

their personal lives. Because the problem with polyamory

9:05

at the moment is that there isn't a

9:07

social blueprint for it. In monogamy, you know,

9:09

there's this general understanding of what it looks

9:11

like in polyamory, you know, it could be

9:13

anything, but there's also a

9:16

lot of misconceptions about what's ethical

9:18

and what's not. So people

9:20

have to muddle their way through that in order to find

9:22

out. And so yeah, I'm not worried about it being a

9:24

trend, you know, there are always going to be people trying

9:26

it, but I'm not concerned about that. Do

9:29

people in polyamorous relationships have any

9:31

legal protections when it comes to

9:33

things like healthcare benefits, property rights

9:35

and inheritance, or is that still a gray

9:37

area? So no, polyamorous

9:40

people don't have legal rights,

9:42

generally. That is changing at the

9:44

moment in certain states in the

9:46

US. I know in Somerville, Massachusetts,

9:49

and other places, there are now

9:51

increased protections for polyamorous people, as

9:53

you know, explicitly stated, you know,

9:55

that is for polyamorous people. But

9:57

For the most part, polyamorous people have had to... Hundred

10:00

just find ways to circumvent the

10:02

existing law Been a by creating

10:04

L a Visa own property jointly

10:06

because at the moment it's very

10:08

difficult to get more than two

10:10

days in a mortgage and of

10:12

figuring out like family custody like

10:14

through getting special of lawyers at

10:16

the so many things that the

10:18

law effects and I would say

10:21

right now the biggest concern I

10:23

have is about discrimination in the

10:25

workplace and schools on you know

10:27

just in in life. In general

10:29

polyamorous people experience. Very negative mental health

10:31

outcomes from the way that polyamory is

10:33

so stigmatized because they're still very much

10:36

a lack of understanding of what polyamory

10:38

is and I would say that you

10:40

know if I were to you if

10:42

I had to wave a magic wand

10:45

and improve something or cheese something about

10:47

the system at as it is I

10:49

would say yeah like introducing more kind

10:51

of anti discrimination laws, a polyamorous people

10:54

and increasing education about what know monogamy

10:56

is and how it just as valid

10:58

as an option of. Monogamy. Year.

11:01

Not better than monogamy, nor was just

11:03

the same. Arm. I think

11:05

the the wall be a lot better

11:08

and people below happier. Leann there are

11:10

people who will be bothered by our

11:12

conversation. does that concern you in any

11:14

way and other any common misconceptions that

11:17

you'd like to debunk. The.

11:19

Idea what people getting offended me on the

11:21

inside all the time. I think that is

11:23

just the nature of things on. people are

11:26

scared by change and I think that's very

11:28

human response and a when people are holding

11:30

on to that creature comforts you know, the

11:32

structures that they burn up and it can

11:35

be terrifying to realize that there are other

11:37

options out there that you may not have

11:39

considered. leads a lot of people to have

11:41

existential crises about whether they've made the right

11:44

decision and so you know. I see it

11:46

as all a very normal response. A thought

11:48

it doesn't. Concern me I think thoughts

11:50

on you know people are going. She

11:52

responded all kinds of ways. Some people

11:55

are gonna feel challenged by it and

11:57

that may lead them to do more

11:59

introspection or the action and some people

12:01

are gonna, you know, feel challenge to

12:03

run away and you know that's their

12:05

business. Oh my. You know, when people

12:07

think about multiple partners, they can't conceive

12:10

of having more than one romantic partner

12:12

at the same time. and so they

12:14

assume that either unit just like one

12:16

of them is the real relationship or

12:18

none of them all real relationships. And.

12:21

I think it's just important for

12:23

mainstream audiences to recognize that just

12:25

because you don't understand it doesn't

12:28

mean it doesn't exist. There are

12:30

people who are capable of having

12:32

multiple romantic connection that the same

12:34

time. And. Dot. Is

12:36

just the thing.is always going to

12:38

exists whether you like it or

12:40

not. Liam, what advice would you

12:42

give to someone who's interested in

12:44

exploring polyamory? I would say you

12:46

know. Take. It slow. It's a

12:48

big thing to do and you don't have

12:51

to do everything all at once. The.

12:53

Lots of resources are now available

12:55

here. You know that books are

12:57

podcasts is are all social media

12:59

pages like mine where you can

13:01

get a lot of information and

13:03

consumers in whatever form you choose.

13:06

I. Would say if you are in

13:08

and existing monogamous relationship to approach

13:10

the conversation with tax and you

13:12

know to possibly think about the

13:14

talking about the subject in or

13:17

in theory rather than kind of

13:19

going and going like others or

13:21

something that want to do right

13:23

here right now and I would

13:25

say you know he a few

13:27

to dear research and be compassionate

13:29

and patient with yourself and allow

13:31

yourself to make mistakes because inevitably

13:33

you know that will be mistake

13:36

made. As people often do in relationships,

13:38

so you know it's just another relationship

13:40

stall you're allowed to mess up and

13:42

you're allowed to learn from those mistakes.

13:45

And obviously be mucus of and respectful.

13:47

and yeah just your brush up on

13:49

doors relational skills that you been using

13:51

can even even price of us soil

13:53

and not know that much different really

13:55

thought to be on us out but

13:58

I think as a lot of. personal

14:00

growth. There's a lot of potential for personal

14:02

growth in polyamory, and that's a very exciting

14:05

thing. Leigh-Anne, thank you for being on

14:07

The Excerpt. Yeah, thank you for having me. Thanks

14:10

to our senior producers, Shannon-Marie Green and Bradley

14:12

Glantz-Rock, for their production assistance. Our executive producer

14:14

is Laura Beaty. Let us know what you

14:17

think of this episode by sending a note

14:19

to podcasts at usatoday.com. Thanks for listening. I'm

14:21

Dana Taylor. Taylor Wolf and we'll be back

14:23

tomorrow morning with another episode of The

14:25

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15:00

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15:02

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15:04

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15:07

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15:09

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15:11

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