0:00

fly faster than you think with the jet

0:02

blue plus card and watch your vacate plans

0:04

take off you can earn up to sixty thousand

0:06

bonus points after qualifying purchases plus

0:09

your first checked bag is free now

0:11

that's something to talk about offer

0:13

subject to credit approval see application terms

0:15

and conditions for complete details visit

0:17

jet blue plus card dot com slash podcast

0:25

i'm a decline

0:28

and this is the as are conscious i'm

0:41

a kind of the market out

0:43

with the legend has written in

0:46

it's users can be true but it

0:48

is she's written at least seventy novels

0:51

the , of poetry poetry clutches

0:53

of short of and then countless

0:56

essays a bunch of which are bound together

0:58

in a new collection a questions and

1:01

of course for nineteen eighty five book the handmade still

1:03

has never stopped being remade and

1:05

reinterpreted and debated there was sustain

1:08

a huge proceeds television version of

1:10

it a couple years ago why

1:13

what makes market outward so productive

1:16

but also what makes her work

1:18

so embassy relevant and

1:20

, episode in a ways is

1:23

a metre example the thing it's talking about

1:25

we recorded this conversation in mid february recorded

1:27

it before russia invaded ukraine ukraine

1:30

it you wouldn't quite know that know we

1:33

end up talking about life behind the iron curtain

1:35

we talk about how the handmade hell was animated

1:38

by at was observations about have communication

1:40

and information work inside to tell tearing regimes

1:43

we talk about the role the history and the stories

1:46

we tell about the past plane or lives

1:48

the way leaders use those stories and

1:51

control over those stories to control us

1:53

we talk about the alert that authoritarian

1:55

figures and pills how for people

1:58

this odyssey shouldn't fit as on to a recent

2:00

run of shows as it does but

2:02

, we are are that's

2:04

par for the course of that would her work is

2:06

shot through with this eerie precious

2:09

which is part of why keep proving so long lived

2:12

a very good rule of thumb is it whatever market

2:14

outweigh the is worried about now that's

2:16

what the restaurants are going to be worrying about a decade

2:18

from now or now and that's

2:20

one question motivating our conversation how does

2:22

she choose what to worry about but

2:25

we talked about talked lot more than that to talk

2:27

about the bible about the way climate

2:29

change will reshape not just start world but our relationships

2:32

we talk about the way cultures are shaped

2:34

by the dominant energy sources of the time

2:36

we talked about you ufos she even sings

2:38

a song this one it was such

2:40

a joy to record situate he could have

2:42

this conversation i hope you get as

2:44

much from it as i did as always

2:47

my email as refined show my times

2:49

dot com

2:54

margaret atwood looking to the show

2:57

happy to be year

2:59

the let's begin with this why

3:01

do human beings

3:03

think and stories

3:06

ah

3:07

the people that a lot of

3:10

the series about that so

3:12

let's say that once we had we had

3:15

that included a person the present

3:17

and future ones we could

3:20

think about what had happened and

3:23

transfer information to people about

3:25

what might therefore happened we're

3:27

gonna be telling stories the

3:30

i think the stories of you go way back

3:32

the stories that the start being

3:34

told are partly about how to do

3:36

stuff like

3:38

how to hunt the gazelle precautions

3:41

that you might take around oh

3:44

and i think stories were originally

3:47

or or of the reason they persisted

3:49

because and course there must have been a positive

3:52

for , was to

3:54

teach people how they didn't

3:57

have to do it by trial and error

3:59

though uncle else got

4:02

eaten

4:02

while crocodile right there

4:05

maybe better not go swimming there though

4:07

you don't have to assists you

4:10

don't have to try for yourself to see

4:12

if see if might be a crocodile their i'm

4:14

telling you story

4:17

and it didn't end well so don't do that the

4:19

other thing we did when we started with the complicated

4:22

language was we started the

4:25

leaving and things that might

4:27

not necessarily be visible the

4:30

think we did that partly to

4:33

i guess we're we're getting a little help here so

4:37

it's raining too much what can we do about

4:39

the says lead to talk

4:42

to the rain god

4:43

what you think the disadvantages the

4:46

biggest pieces a thinks and stories were information

4:48

is more persuasive and a good story

4:50

oh yeah you can make up really destructive

4:53

things and is the

4:55

minnow instigated and malicious

4:57

way for your own ends and

5:00

that's the other thing that we really know about

5:02

stories and and going back as far

5:04

as as far as we can

5:06

with the written record the among other

5:08

things those are the kinds of stories we

5:10

find why

5:12

did why are people so or abide by odysseus

5:16

he made up these lies he

5:20

, up stories he may not ruses

5:23

he men up deception is

5:25

tricky so we're

5:27

a species that deceives other

5:29

species deceived to we

5:32

do it more elaborately and we do with

5:35

stories other animals going

5:37

for camouflage and deception we

5:39

were able to go in for camouflage deception

5:42

using words and

5:45

weekend for instance make out false stories

5:47

about our enemies to , other

5:49

people dislike them in turn against

5:51

them and if you go

5:53

into the history of propaganda

5:55

in war time you will find a lot of

5:58

clever inventions about

6:00

stuff that wasn't true done

6:03

to the purposes of deceiving so we

6:05

are we are a species

6:07

that deceives other species deceived

6:10

to we do it more

6:12

elaborately and we do with stories

6:15

what makes a story believable

6:17

well now

6:18

let me see

6:21

what kind of thing you might like the

6:24

think you might the story but what a good

6:26

person you are good

6:28

person as or duel or do the right thing

6:30

sure you do i can tell well

6:33

you can really help out him and kind

6:37

the only you have to do the

6:40

that roughly seventeen children

6:42

at those solid the moon and and you're gonna

6:44

do that are you as or cause you're a good

6:46

person and you the help i think

6:48

most people want to be good

6:51

they want to help i

6:53

don't i can really cynical view

6:55

of in the nature that way i think we

6:58

do want to be good we do want to help and

7:01

so are really conniving person

7:03

will pitch to that side of us rather

7:05

than saying just let's

7:07

rob a bank and make a million dollars you

7:10

know they even say no to the bank robbery as

7:13

that's not helpful you

7:15

might say yes to and if we said let's

7:18

rob a bank in is the million dollars to

7:20

help humankind and and

7:22

advancing quality you might

7:24

do that

7:25

yeah i mean i've were i worry

7:28

by bank heist skills or week so my that

7:30

was little the chatted for the plan

7:32

the it was a foolproof plan you

7:34

might do it then but only if it were for

7:37

the greater good so i think we're more likely

7:39

to be sucked into doing stuff by

7:41

people manipulating are good side

7:43

than by people appealing to our

7:46

our greed and and power

7:48

hungry nurse although there are none of

7:50

us who are interested in the great

7:53

and power hungry know so it's a motif

7:56

i by the thought fit our good

7:58

side is more

7:59

the podium to manipulate

8:02

in other parts of us but the other thing i think you're getting at

8:04

their that always so true to me is

8:06

that heart of the power of a story

8:10

the degree to which it makes us a person simply

8:12

of consequence we

8:14

are yet to see ourselves as the actor

8:17

living in a moment in human history where

8:19

we matter where not just one of the many

8:22

well

8:23

doris by their very nature have

8:25

central characters unless

8:27

their history stories dealing just

8:30

was statistics but we know the

8:33

were much more likely to be able to remember

8:35

story those about a person

8:38

or people not

8:40

one that is just about numbers and less

8:42

we make the numbers themselves into

8:44

actors in the story then

8:46

until your story but the number nine a

8:48

very heroic number i

8:51

was a lot of sesame street these days i think

8:54

think it was hoped that i can relate yeah

8:56

they make the numbers in them sort of entities

8:58

and and then we can be interested

9:01

in them but if they're just numbers not so much

9:03

we we didn't develop

9:05

math until pretty late and are

9:07

human history whereas we

9:09

developed language and music

9:11

and very and very so

9:14

stories come naturally to small kids you

9:16

you know this yourself so this

9:18

happens then this happens

9:20

and then this happens they understand

9:22

that there's a play and other

9:24

actors in the plot like their teddy bear

9:27

so it's really built in non i think

9:30

what kids do before the age of

9:32

to is pretty indicative of what comes

9:35

with the tool kit they

9:37

already are doing that dances they

9:39

have a sense of rhythm they're very the music

9:42

and they're very interested in words and facial

9:44

expressions but they're not

9:47

interested in nine times

9:49

nine at

9:51

that age this in favour assistants

9:54

to my father's my father's disappointment he's

9:56

a he's a mathematician and i was never

9:58

that interested in that yeah

9:59

the

10:01

what did i noticed reading your book of essays

10:03

is it there's certain stories of

10:05

groups the stories that the

10:07

circle and circle and come back and back particularly

10:10

to stories of the bible how

10:12

do you think about or had you explain from

10:15

a secular perspective could always use another explanation

10:18

from here's a perspective but how

10:20

do you explain the potency again

10:23

us of the stories in the bible because

10:25

they're not easily accessed and many

10:27

them are not easy

10:29

i mean there's a lot of sex death blood and violence

10:31

in there which is one of the recent since been paint

10:34

sons from popular book these

10:36

are dramatic stories when

10:39

you get into the be gets in the bigots maybe

10:41

not so much but what we would

10:43

call they sort of he stories

10:46

are very dramatic and

10:49

they often seats or something

10:51

that we really like which

10:53

you underdogs making

10:56

good

10:57

though

10:59

the number and the kids stories are

11:01

like dot and in some

11:03

of them are about really cataclysmic

11:05

events eminem that

11:07

we didn't get in high school or both very

11:10

bad behavior though

11:12

the one i put into the

11:14

testament switches because you mind

11:17

cut into twelve pieces for

11:19

some reason they didn't parade

11:21

that in front of the eight year olds i don't

11:23

know why a result , a concubine

11:26

mom mom kid writing

11:28

i'm sunday school essay said and king

11:30

sol and than had twelve wives

11:32

and eighty two eighty hits

11:36

his didn't know so

11:38

yeah it's very interesting

11:40

to see what kind of bad

11:42

behavior the actually

11:45

condoned and permitted but

11:47

there isn't a lot of papering

11:49

over in the bible people

11:52

are bad they're bad like it's right up there on

11:54

the page and even people

11:56

who are savored quite frequently

11:58

behave badly they got

12:00

called on it

12:02

i want to talk a bit about the way that stories

12:04

function in politics you're canadian

12:06

but you've spent a fair amount of time living

12:08

in the united states as well what's

12:11

, view of the difference between the

12:13

stories americans tell about themselves

12:15

about the country and the story the

12:17

canadians tell about their country

12:19

well these stories are influx

12:22

as you probably have noticed there

12:25

used to be a kind of shared mythology

12:27

and the united states

12:29

and canadians is to lament that

12:32

they didn't have such a thing and

12:34

, would in fact be quite difficult

12:36

to have a totally shared mythology

12:39

and canada because it was already

12:41

made up of some diverse

12:43

groups of people but

12:45

americans had americans kind of unifying

12:48

the story and unifying ceremonies

12:51

that involved a lot of marching

12:53

around on the fourth of july

12:57

the friend told to have been quite conflicted

12:59

about their stories but they managed

13:01

to make it stick for a while so was best

13:03

deal dogooder best and it's

13:06

nectar still thinking it's good but

13:09

there is a lot of adjustment before that

13:11

before that the excerpted

13:13

story that they had the revolution

13:15

than the had napoleon than they had the restoration

13:18

of the monarchy and then they had another republic

13:20

then they had another monarchy and then they had

13:22

another republic in order to hold

13:25

the sort of nation state together there

13:27

has to be a story that most of the people

13:29

agree on

13:30

and every once in awhile

13:33

stories fall apart

13:35

then

13:37

there are not replaced with another one

13:39

fragmentation as the result no

13:42

one of the things that stories do

13:44

is day give members

13:47

of a group a kind of unifying

13:50

imaginary thing that they can believe

13:52

it when i say imaginary

13:54

i'm so i'm not saying it's necessarily

13:57

faults and saying it is the thing of the imagination

14:00

like money sounds

14:03

, a thing of the imagination imagination

14:06

a human thing that we make up because it's and

14:08

works and it's convenient for us but if we

14:10

suddenly start believing in a currency

14:12

that's it you , to revert

14:15

to the black market and bartering

14:18

the yeah so the american story

14:20

is to be liberty democracy

14:23

freedom equality

14:26

land of light that

14:29

was that way all during the cold war okay

14:32

because the cold war was

14:34

the iron curtain land of darkness

14:38

don't know where the remember that pop song they

14:40

don't ever god behind the iron curtain

14:42

i do not know before my time

14:44

well they don't have gone behind the iron

14:47

curtain to satan they

14:49

have given him

14:50

something chrome

15:03

can't you know the

15:06

story about america was that's where

15:08

you wanted to be that's

15:11

where you didn't have all the things that were going

15:13

on behind the iron curtain during

15:16

her and then comes down the ninety nine

15:18

nine that story loses

15:20

some of it's grip the

15:22

gonna be land a virtuous light who

15:26

is the foiled to that you

15:28

know who gets to play the penguin to

15:30

europe batman or

15:34

, worse the joker to your batman

15:37

and that was that problem no

15:40

remember the nineties which is probably when you're

15:42

born have a little older than that no

15:44

no no you can't possibly be it

15:47

was gonna be the end of history capitalism

15:50

and try out shopping was the future

15:52

was your son going to be great that

15:55

ended and nine eleven that

15:57

was the end of that particular phase

16:00

and there is another potential penguin

16:03

joker to marriages batman

16:05

but it was kind of hard to coalesce

16:08

that especially and fewer really

16:11

rather dependent on saudi arabia there

16:14

were no shaping up to another one which

16:16

appears to be potent about

16:18

to invade ukraine and

16:21

who knows what is going to happen there

16:23

but america meanwhile

16:25

has been examining it's the

16:27

underside of the methods you like so

16:30

quality for him exactly was

16:33

the the iteration of independence

16:36

and the constitution read those going to be for

16:38

everybody apparently not known

16:41

at the beginning but once you've started with that

16:43

idea it's kind of hard to stop

16:47

and despite the setbacks thank

16:50

you have seen the franchise extending

16:53

further and further

16:55

what you're saying right now as an attempt to roll

16:57

seven that backwards and discouraging

17:00

of voting

17:01

for certain groups

17:03

and a certain amount of historical revisionism

17:06

well we never actually mandy quality

17:08

we meant something ,

17:10

like them roman republic and mentioned

17:12

was only men and

17:15

not of slaves women or children

17:17

that were supposed to be citizens

17:19

i think you're right about america

17:22

groping for another foil in

17:24

the long kind of post cold war period

17:26

of one story i sometimes how

17:29

myself or that where we are there

17:32

is an attempt to make it the

17:34

islamic world that didn't hold together

17:36

it wasn't big enough years to al qaeda

17:39

were to depend on saudi arabia the

17:42

recounted here i don't really think it's going to

17:44

be put in i don't even really think it's gonna be china

17:46

it's each other

17:47

that would be tragic because the result would be

17:49

another civil war then there

17:51

are no more is worse than

17:53

civil wars they're actually

17:55

the worse wars and

17:57

that has been a motive actually through

17:59

it

18:00

american history that there were the

18:03

righteous people in than they were not

18:05

righteous people so the founding

18:08

going back to the original sounding months

18:10

the puritans that wasn't that democracy

18:13

that was a theocracy and

18:16

only doesn't seem got in a cornfield

18:18

word marshall members of the church

18:21

to begin with than usual

18:23

as usually happens with fervent

18:26

utopian movements which

18:28

it was one you , the

18:30

first generation to read the fervent utopian

18:32

a slut say the the original

18:35

french revolutionaries a regional

18:37

bolsheviks and then you win

18:39

and then why do you do and you win what

18:42

supposed to happen as the golden age supposed

18:44

to appear that doesn't appear

18:47

then what

18:48

well you've won any have eliminated

18:51

your enemies

18:52

the original enemies but it's still not

18:54

working though it must be

18:56

trail from within that

18:59

must be which is it

19:02

must be capitalists roaders

19:05

capitalists must be the many undermine

19:07

it secret monarchists in the case

19:10

the revolution enemies

19:12

, the revolution it must be them from

19:14

within your own country so

19:16

what you're saying now as saying now

19:18

match for what is the real

19:21

america what is the

19:23

authentic america you

19:26

see people wrapping themselves in the flag

19:28

both ways and saying

19:30

that they are they real america and

19:33

you just saw that in canada so these

19:35

people that the blockades wrapping

19:38

, from the canadian flag were

19:40

standing up for the real canada

19:43

canada fuzzy about what that what but

19:45

that's what they were doing and and

19:48

their role model was what had

19:50

been going on and in the states where

19:52

where overthrowing the government and

19:54

the name of the real rehearsed like

19:57

that did you ever played

20:00

wrestling

20:01

he that's what you're saying that

20:03

an arm wrestle for the soul of america

20:20

it can feel great to donate money

20:22

and make a difference in someone else's life

20:24

but how can you feel confident that your donations

20:27

are improving or saving lives effectively

20:29

you could do weeks of research

20:32

to find charities what programs they run

20:34

how effective those programs are and how

20:36

the charity might use your money or

20:38

you could visit give well dot org

20:40

there you'll get a short vetted list

20:42

of the best charities they found at saving

20:45

or improving lives per dollar go

20:47

to give well dot org and pick podcast

20:49

and enter the ezra klein show at

20:51

checkout you , i are here

20:54

listening to this episode for the same reason

20:56

we like or in my case love

20:59

listening to great stories stories

21:01

this moment with my friend christian a few years ago

21:03

we were talking about this amazing article

21:05

we're both red and then it occurred to us

21:08

there's all this fantastic journalism written

21:10

for the for but what if we could

21:12

listen we it i'm ryan wagner

21:15

and that friends and i we created autumn

21:17

which carries the very best stories from

21:19

the world's most respected publications

21:22

so you can hear them read aloud by world

21:24

class narrators from the new york

21:26

times to the atlantic rolling

21:28

stone to mother jones autumn is

21:30

how you can experience stories in a experience

21:32

new way download the autumn

21:34

app or go the autumn dot com subscribe

21:37

and start listening today that's today

21:40

you d m

21:50

the plucked bit about

21:53

beginning to compose the habits

21:56

tell in west berlin and nineteen eighty

21:58

four so the your i was born actually the

22:00

and for the wall

22:02

fell so how did being

22:04

there then influence they

22:07

thought about the book

22:08

nice and started making notes on at nineteen

22:11

eighty one but took me awhile

22:13

to actually work up to writing acres

22:15

of acres so

22:16

the summer naughty

22:18

the researchers the ambulance at the time

22:20

there i was in in

22:22

west berlin and because we weren't

22:25

german we can go to east berlin

22:27

more easily than germans current and

22:30

, could also go to czechoslovakia

22:32

which we didn't we went to poland though

22:35

he had experiences of surrey

22:38

iron curtain countries

22:40

the time and they were somewhat

22:41

different the east

22:43

germans i think we're soda the tightest

22:45

of anybody

22:47

and we now know

22:49

from the stasi files that ended

22:52

there were a lot of informants are people

22:54

were pretty careful about what they would say

22:57

the jackals the back here we can talk to people

22:59

but only and open spaces

23:02

the you couldn't have a frank conversation in a

23:04

building or and car naval

23:07

just assumed it was about in

23:09

poland it was already pretty wide open

23:11

in nineteen ninety four though

23:14

poland as had lots of experiences

23:17

of people marching across the monarch

23:19

implying them some of those experiences

23:22

for them were pretty recent

23:25

the general populace was not paying

23:27

a lot of attention to what the rules were

23:30

taxi driver drove up and and

23:33

you said dollars and

23:35

we said the largest they

23:38

drove away months

23:41

not starts happening once

23:43

you start preferring somebody else is currency

23:46

you know that the government losing

23:49

some authority

23:51

anyway

23:53

very interesting to be

23:55

there at that time the

23:58

thing is somebody

23:59

just it's been going on recently as

24:02

that the people doing this

24:04

sub are too young to remember any

24:06

of that

24:07

they don't know what a real totalitarianism

24:10

is like and

24:12

they're not paying attention

24:14

to the kinds of steps that lead to

24:17

it my you

24:19

get one of these things going well

24:21

you get by in what sort of

24:23

propaganda

24:25

the likely to be put out there to begin with

24:28

and you never begin by saying i'm

24:30

going to be and tyrannous dictator

24:32

and i'm gonna ruin your life

24:34

the don't start out that way start

24:37

out by saying i'm going to make things so

24:39

much better and you want

24:41

that to happen you as around because

24:43

you're a good person but

24:47

first we have to get rid of those painful

24:49

is there not good people

24:51

that makes me think of something i notice when beating the habits

24:54

else would just how much in a book is

24:56

occupied with how one communicates

24:59

when they can't speak freely then

25:01

you get it this and is very embodied way literally

25:03

how would you do it where would you be

25:05

what words would you use how

25:07

would you hold your body in those moments it's very

25:10

visceral

25:11

well this is one of the things from

25:14

his to berlin and

25:16

after i'd written the handmade tell or men

25:18

into movie the end

25:20

we launched that movie

25:23

in berlin justice they war was coming

25:25

down and we much

25:27

that twice we launched it and west for lynn

25:30

the end the after party was

25:33

talking about the acting talking but the

25:35

set design talking about these know

25:37

the usual things talk about movies when

25:40

there aren't any other considerations

25:42

you're talking about how good a movie is it

25:45

are you know it and then

25:47

we went across to eastbourne

25:49

and me much to bear on it was packed

25:51

people watch it very intently and

25:54

through bouquets up on the stage

25:56

afterwards and said the

25:59

our life

26:02

and they didn't mean the outfits

26:04

they meant you couldn't talk to anybody

26:07

because you didn't know if they were spying

26:09

on you so with

26:11

that sort of eerie feeling

26:14

things look normal but

26:17

the was really actually who

26:19

prague with similar

26:21

similarly rather shut down and similarly

26:23

you didn't know those who

26:25

with listening in but when

26:27

we got checked into our room in the hotel

26:30

the bell man pointed

26:33

to the chandelier and

26:35

put his finger to his lips and other words

26:37

bad bad whenever

26:40

we wanted anything wanted anything hotel room you

26:43

descend under the chandelier and i wonder why

26:45

they haven't changed that light bulb and knock

26:47

knock knock there would be the lifeboat that

26:49

after telling us about that he

26:51

then took his into the vestibule

26:53

and said why detained some

26:55

dollars

26:58

anyway everything was was

27:00

sort of underneath

27:02

the women in search of casket

27:04

said that time in prague going

27:07

to find a cast noticed them

27:09

a big fan of cat scans and

27:11

couldn't find any casket things

27:13

dram actually went to his addresses trying

27:16

to find kafka knock on the door

27:17

no no no no gov milk

27:20

advice

27:20

the very verboten casket

27:23

the time

27:25

then went back and eighty nine

27:27

and already there were casket

27:30

handkerchiefs casket playing cards

27:32

cask uscis casket

27:34

church because we're already beginning to appear

27:37

then i went back a little bit later and it

27:39

was full blown care are

27:43

you certain couldn't avoid the casket there's

27:45

the statue there's no word

27:47

of got the award about the caf corridors

27:50

thrilled and , the hotel

27:52

where i was staying the head assholes heard of display

27:55

of sort of cask as pencil catskills

27:57

typewriter casket

27:59

chewing gum you know just anything

28:02

that they can collect was in there so

28:05

this this story

28:07

about two things number one about how some

28:09

literary figures get repressed under

28:12

certain kinds of regimes why

28:14

can't go because he wrote stories

28:16

about impenetrable bureaucracies

28:20

the justice of which could not be figured

28:23

out and that was a bit

28:25

too close to the bone i

28:27

suppose and

28:29

the other part of the story is

28:32

how something can disappear

28:35

then we have here

28:36

you can be a villain from

28:39

one regime and i hero for

28:41

the next and back and work

28:43

both ways

28:45

the only bit about the regime you construct in

28:47

in the habits tell what it would as gilliard

28:49

beliefs

28:51

okay to the answer to that

28:54

question is what questions was

28:56

i'm attempting to answer and

28:59

remember when i start writing it the

29:02

beginning of the eighties when there's already a

29:04

backlash against a lot

29:06

of the stuff that had been happening in the sixties

29:09

and seventies one thing i do

29:11

tend to go that way so

29:13

you have

29:14

ten or fifteen years of i'm certain

29:17

period and then you have a push back

29:19

against that most people didn't like it

29:21

when it was happening so

29:23

, didion predicted it it

29:27

said some of these people are no unhappiness

29:29

the since millet not their

29:31

idea of how things go that

29:34

also can work both ways because

29:37

any group over two hundred people is

29:39

almost bound to have to have

29:41

to good rule

29:42

yeah well it's not my real eight

29:44

and neck and up so

29:46

nineteen eighty start getting the push back

29:49

and you start getting me political

29:51

organization of the religious right

29:54

and they're already saying things like women

29:56

should belong in the home and i was wondering

29:59

okay so the

29:59

in the

30:00

there are there running around like mice

30:03

opening bank accounts and you know

30:05

having jobs and since oldest

30:07

of any stuff that they're doing hurry

30:10

, get them back into the home if

30:12

you decide that's where they ought to be well

30:16

the pc you cut off their funds

30:18

weird , credit cards by that

30:21

time and

30:23

i would suggest that we retain the as

30:26

cash money for

30:28

, but just in case some

30:31

negotiable currency that negotiable currency controlled

30:34

by other people maybe

30:36

a good idea oh

30:38

yes i started writing it down and answered

30:41

the question if america were to have

30:43

a totalitarian government

30:45

what kind what the

30:48

and under what flag as it

30:50

were wouldn't fly my

30:53

answer to that was go back to the founders

30:56

namely the seventeenth century puritan

30:59

theocrats who never went away

31:03

yeah the different forms

31:06

they didn't vanish though

31:09

looking of was have any in the eighties

31:11

with the political organization of

31:13

the religious right that

31:16

is puja see and league the

31:18

only get rid of the voting rights and

31:20

on the rest of those are the

31:22

folks not everybody's

31:25

interpretation of christianity

31:27

by the way certainly not

31:30

but it does it always struck me that

31:32

are there competition about the bible

31:35

i think there are so wisdom in

31:37

suggesting that the way to tell terry

31:40

and regime like that

31:42

could emerge the to connect itself

31:44

it course stories

31:46

the society

31:48

absolutely the normally that if

31:50

you may get into a religion which of course

31:53

so many the games throughout

31:55

history have done the divine

31:57

right of kings the holy roman empire

31:59

if you connect it with the religion

32:02

then it becomes heresy to

32:04

oppose it very powerful

32:06

tool you're not just against

32:09

some prime minister other you're against

32:11

god that's pretty serious

32:14

thing and a believing community

32:17

and a lot of rulers

32:20

has the whole story

32:22

about how they are there by divine

32:24

see at

32:26

that you find and on me

32:28

the english money to this day

32:31

when i was looking at the have made tell this

32:33

week i was he

32:36

struck by it's

32:39

maternity the even

32:41

off headlines the still

32:44

very specific the moment

32:46

and three of on really stuck with gonna want to talk

32:48

with you about them one with

32:50

this you right we lived

32:53

as usual by ignoring ignoring

32:56

isn't the same as ignorance you

32:58

have to work at it

33:00

especially now

33:02

i think that's how we are

33:04

the certain extent as an entity on

33:06

this planet that if you're trying to

33:09

pay attention to everything that's going

33:11

on especially now with a deluge

33:13

of information that is available

33:17

your head would explode and

33:19

a lot of people have the

33:21

media lies that they have intend

33:23

to

33:25

though if you have a young family you know what

33:27

that's like

33:28

so immersive experience

33:31

and you can't just say oh let's

33:33

do that next week it's now

33:36

and you are in the moment whether you

33:39

know illness in ,

33:41

stuff be in the moment if you have young children

33:43

you cannot help but be in the moment you

33:45

are in that moment and somebody is sitting

33:47

on the floor floor now

33:49

and to do something with it now so

33:52

people have their own lives they have their immediate

33:54

concerns they have their own jobs

33:57

and financial problems they have stuff they

33:59

have done what and to try

34:01

to take any sort of a wine or

34:03

wine long view quite

34:06

hard for a lot of people because their own lives

34:08

are so immediate immersive and stressed

34:12

though that's part of the problem

34:14

and the other part of the problem is we would

34:16

rather not look especially

34:19

if

34:20

we feel powerless in the face

34:22

of that which we are being asked to look

34:24

out why do you

34:26

expect me to do

34:28

the arm or really big problem and and

34:30

what is driving a lot of these other problems

34:33

is

34:34

what used to be called climate change in this now

34:36

called the climate crisis that

34:39

is going to be more

34:41

whether catastrophe is more is

34:43

fires more droughts more

34:46

famines and when you have salmons

34:49

and water shortages you're going to

34:51

have social unrest and

34:54

are going to have a great big refugee problem

34:56

which we already have now so

34:59

what do you gonna do

35:00

and

35:01

for most people what can

35:04

they do

35:05

therefore i would rather not

35:08

look

35:09

though it's like my friend who

35:12

went he says squirrel run over in

35:14

the streets i don't

35:16

want to look leno

35:19

, does had

35:21

hoped for logan squashed squirrel

35:23

either but it's there

35:25

i've read enough interviews with you to know you kind

35:27

of bad away this is a

35:29

person it struck me reading

35:32

that that such the maybe one

35:34

of the simple answer as to why a

35:36

number of your books have an extraordinary

35:38

staying power and feel like they were

35:40

a bit ahead of time which is simply that

35:44

you seem pretty good not ignoring

35:47

simply asking what what if this is true

35:50

what if is continues what if what i see

35:52

is real

35:53

yes i wouldn't

35:54

and gift none

35:57

of them are it is that the thing about the

35:59

guess the stories at least

36:02

well get some the gods usually

36:04

have a cat tests somebody

36:06

else made the other day would you like to live forever

36:08

in as a little over a non story she slips

36:10

you don't , from eternal

36:13

life unless you are also us for

36:15

eternal youth because it's not gonna work

36:17

out well well have

36:19

to be treated with care

36:22

gifts from the gods so

36:24

there are there certain areas where areas penguin

36:27

lot of attention in other areas where in

36:29

other probably just don't like

36:31

everybody else there's there's certain things that

36:34

i just i don't know much about

36:36

them

36:36

i don't know what goes on

36:39

therefore they're not my my focus

36:42

there's another line that struck

36:44

me as particular he

36:45

how did in the book which

36:48

is this one

36:49

they quote how did we

36:51

learn it

36:52

that talent francis ability

36:56

you're talking about the before world

36:58

and away our world now the consumer

37:00

world but it just struck me as such

37:03

as we're way of putting something

37:05

of the human condition not just insists

37:07

ability but a pallet francis ability

37:10

tell me about that

37:11

though

37:13

the talent for unsafe ability kicks

37:15

off around nineteen fifty since

37:18

the most recent wave of it in

37:20

the thirties the virtue was not

37:22

to waste things and

37:25

in the forties that became very much more

37:27

accentuated because you didn't only

37:30

did you not waste things but you saved

37:32

certain things up because it was the war

37:34

effort so , saved

37:36

elastic bands you saved that

37:40

the moon tin cans or what

37:42

they did that it's is a newspaper

37:44

you saved tinfoil he saved all of

37:46

those things up and , they

37:48

had war salvage drives a new donated

37:51

all of those things you saved up

37:53

your clothes your donated them to europe

37:55

from people who didn't have close you

37:58

never threw things out

37:59

and then in came the consumer

38:02

society and that is pretty much driven

38:04

to does everything is joined

38:06

at the hip with the energy ,

38:08

driving that civilization and if you

38:10

want to read about that you can get a book

38:13

called art and energy by burying

38:15

lord so every

38:18

energy source produces them culture

38:21

which is connected to the an energy source

38:24

and what you saw between the nineteenth and

38:26

twentieth centuries was

38:29

the chef from coal very

38:32

worker and cancers

38:34

form of energy

38:35

labor unions famous

38:38

karl marx thanks marx lot gave

38:40

us this emphasis on jobs controlling

38:44

the means of production was supposed to solve

38:47

everything i can tell you than it does not

38:49

when i was in poland me for the iron

38:52

curtain came down they had they had

38:54

pile of overshoots the

38:56

co the workers' control the means

38:58

of production and they were producing over issues

39:00

but nobody is to put had oh

39:04

so yes just making things doesn't

39:06

necessarily work in and

39:09

of itself say you had call

39:11

shift over to oil oil is cheap

39:13

the cheap to produce doesn't take a lot of

39:15

workers compared to go and

39:19

suddenly had all of this cheap energy

39:21

and normally that they're all these other

39:23

things you could make out of it

39:25

though

39:26

finland the nineteen fifties in came nylon

39:30

horrible nylon

39:31

never mind we're of them

39:33

anymore they really stank but

39:35

, stuff so hula hoops

39:38

plastic things and they were

39:40

really cheap a metal

39:42

pale a plastic pale

39:44

when juri than a house

39:47

many metal tales of you got i

39:49

have a lot of plastic bills in my home right

39:51

now and know metal pales right not

39:53

blessing pills are cheap so

39:56

cheap stuff

39:57

the and therefore you had to abdicate

40:00

the wheels turning you had to have people

40:02

wanting to buy stuff and

40:04

you got the throw away economy and

40:06

you are a lot of plastic and that's

40:08

the big problem that we're dealing with

40:11

now

40:12

or one of the big problems

40:14

the ongoing all is going into your bloodstream

40:17

muslims from the going

40:19

into the ocean is going into the water it's going

40:21

into the , alone

40:24

micro plastic

40:26

something like about that answer is that

40:28

i think when think read that line the

40:31

sell i thought about the

40:33

talent francis abilities a human condition

40:35

the inability to be happy to always

40:37

wanted bit more but something you're you're saying which is of

40:39

course true is that

40:42

even if human beings have it many times

40:44

been is he even if just

40:47

and still can be hard liquor

40:49

, of insists ability we have now

40:52

is culturally different even

40:54

in memory

40:56

oh yeah i think so does large

40:58

as you know just completely think

41:00

of all the food that is thrown away every day

41:03

the north american continent

41:05

it would never ever ever had happened

41:08

then times and scarcity you would not do

41:10

that

41:11

then i guess the other line i wanted to

41:13

bring you here is it maybe the lights

41:15

while the that when it comes in context of

41:18

two characters again they can

41:20

back to before times and and obsessing

41:23

over the difficulties of their extramarital

41:25

affair but affair just loved it was it was success

41:27

after we thought we had such

41:30

problems how are we did know we were

41:32

happy

41:33

exactly they

41:35

are looking into happiness these

41:37

days are looking into neurological

41:39

happiness and they're looking into social happiness

41:42

one thing that they have they're

41:44

thinking these days is that

41:47

happiness and unhappiness or very

41:50

hi into the your perception

41:52

of what other people have and

41:55

in a material world in which

41:58

are valued according to the stuff god

42:01

thing , just being poor being

42:03

tor is being undervalued and

42:05

treated as negligible the

42:08

more equal people are the

42:10

point of view of what they've got the

42:13

happier they are likely to

42:15

be there's

42:17

not a question of what you've got is a question

42:19

of whether what you gotta consider

42:21

negligible or whether what

42:24

you've got is considered exceptional

42:27

they'll feel person of this and

42:30

it's very hard to live as if you

42:32

know it's true even if you it'll actually do

42:35

that

42:36

the problems i have right now are wonderful

42:39

problems to have doesn't mean also

42:41

mobile than our problems i mean my son

42:43

was up every our hobby how her overnight

42:45

and you know whatever

42:47

i have other little difficulties of

42:50

a life they are

42:52

it is hard to imagine how i will look at

42:54

myself my own

42:57

lack of that

42:59

spoken bus belt gratitude at times

43:02

the

43:03

it's hard to live as if you know

43:06

how good your life truly is there's

43:09

just a strange thing about being human

43:11

yeah we can't do it every day but you might

43:13

take time off now and i guess so

43:17

back in the days when people didn't a things

43:19

everybody said grace before

43:22

a meal

43:23

the races of different kinds of basically

43:25

it was an acknowledgement that you were lucky

43:27

to be eating there was a non

43:30

scottish grace that said let me see

43:32

what is it some have

43:34

meat and cannot eat hum

43:37

that mean and like it

43:40

that we have meat and we can

43:42

eat and so the lord be tank

43:44

it

43:46

now

43:47

then i got the silly about it and

43:49

have things like drink

43:52

good make good god let's eat

43:55

a lower than

43:57

a normal

43:58

the thing that people

43:59

then in their life at one time

44:02

it used to be of daily

44:05

but often hypocritical thing that people

44:07

dead however

44:09

any form of social convention is gonna

44:12

be hypocritical at times

44:14

the so we realize how lucky we

44:17

are would be awful if we always

44:19

had to tell the truth on social occasions

44:22

yes they , not be great

44:24

and i think this of the douglas officer think

44:26

grateful their i'm so glad you're here

44:29

having dinner with us when

44:31

are they leaving

44:33

having easily enough to conceive

44:36

how and eighty four

44:38

you're looking at

44:40

hotel peronism at east germany

44:42

and also thinking about in

44:45

america that's something in the background

44:47

is it you get juliet in part because environmental

44:50

crisis yeah sit help

44:52

me to you how

44:54

you think about society's changing

44:57

the ecosystems degrade

45:00

the environmental ecosystems

45:02

things are going to get nastier we

45:05

can afford to be neighborly and tolerant

45:08

when there's basically

45:10

enough to go around

45:12

the man starts diminishing

45:14

then people get hungry

45:17

and defensive so if you go

45:19

to ireland there's

45:21

a time when people start building defensive

45:24

howard

45:25

that could be kid pretty closely

45:28

do a climate change that took place

45:30

then on water and

45:33

, things got wetter you near that the

45:35

food supply was gonna be diminishing

45:38

and people were going to be becoming

45:40

more territorial and trying

45:43

to protect that which they had that

45:46

that is one theory yeah

45:49

if you have the know front

45:51

three squares a day are you gonna go

45:53

out and steal food yourself

45:56

i'm just asking you ezra probably

45:58

not no problem

45:59

if you don't need it

46:02

you need to take the risk for that

46:05

when you're starving it's a different

46:07

story sure

46:09

as i said one of the effects of the

46:11

climate crisis is gonna be diminishing

46:14

harvests another

46:16

of fact is going to be the the

46:18

moving around of the of invasive

46:20

species and and destructive

46:23

plan diseases

46:25

i spend a lot of time over the past year

46:27

looking at literature on how see changes

46:29

the individual and country level propensity

46:31

for violence and the short answer is it goes

46:33

up but i don't think people realize how strong

46:36

relationship is you can even find it in

46:38

literature part romeo juliet takes

46:40

place on a very hot day and the

46:43

navy shouldn't go out because we're going to go get

46:45

into a fight in that kind of heat but they do it anyway

46:48

but , all these amazing individual experiments

46:50

to this is one sadistic

46:52

it's them and i love where it was

46:54

in phoenix arizona and the researchers

46:56

would get in their car and they would get was

46:58

light and when it turned green it is would

47:01

it boots boots then they

47:03

would time how long it took the drivers

47:05

behind them to hot and the hotter the day the

47:07

more the people behind them ad hoc the angry

47:10

or they would get and they would get angry or quickly

47:12

a boy but then you can also find this is

47:14

the macro level there's a relationship between hotter

47:17

weather and civil conflict and

47:19

i've often wondered if climate change will kill more

47:21

people for the wars it indirectly makes

47:24

likely or then directly

47:26

to the hurricanes and fires it starts

47:30

i think there's no doubt about that you

47:32

know when the french revolution started

47:35

it was very harsh as

47:38

, i don't fit the i didn't know

47:40

that so on

47:41

the french monarchy had put

47:43

a lot of money into the american revolution

47:47

those they were pissed at the british

47:49

for having a make

47:51

a new friends running a back

47:53

at them so they they over spent on the american

47:56

revolution and then they

47:58

have they taxes never part

47:59

miller

48:00

then the price of bread went up

48:04

the perfect storm

48:06

people were angry enough to take the risk

48:09

this will get something people sometimes called climate

48:11

authoritarianism the idea

48:14

that it climate crisis will change

48:16

systems not towards cooperation but

48:18

towards there are terrorism

48:21

towards causing borderlands wrong here we see

48:23

some of it maybe even here new

48:25

yep the followup up to the habits

48:27

tell the testaments is

48:29

very much about how different people react

48:32

the authoritarian

48:34

incursions

48:35

then

48:36

here is what

48:37

you come to believe

48:39

or

48:40

learned about that what what makes people

48:42

more open to authoritarianism

48:45

what makes them not a so

48:47

suicidally but individually less open

48:49

to

48:51

okay so we've had a lot of thinking along those

48:53

lines

48:54

people interested in genetic say there's

48:56

a genetic component people

48:58

interested interested cultures says

49:00

there's and cultural component

49:02

very interesting but from years

49:05

ago that i read was was by

49:07

a man who as a child being

49:10

jewish had been rescued

49:12

the hidden

49:13

in the netherlands

49:15

when he grew up in was tortured

49:17

by the question what made those people do

49:19

that

49:20

why did they do that they're risking their lives

49:23

why did they

49:25

and uma back and he interviewed a number

49:27

of people who and rescue children

49:29

under no circumstances and he thought

49:32

the religious know it was not religious

49:35

some of them are religious others were not

49:37

was it political know political was not political

49:40

some of them are

49:42

last some of them are right some of

49:44

them didn't have that politics particularly

49:48

so what was it and

49:50

he said the only thing that he

49:52

can conclude was that to

49:54

have done otherwise would

49:56

have violated their idea of who

49:59

they were where did they

50:01

get that idea of who they were that's

50:03

another question and wouldn't which he didn't

50:05

pursue but where do you get that idea

50:07

of who you are

50:09

that you are not person who

50:11

when presented with a child

50:14

that needed to be rescued you are

50:16

not a person who inside go away and

50:18

i'm telling them yeah so that's

50:20

on you so what is the

50:22

difference there

50:23

i don't know the answer to that

50:26

the unknown

50:28

there's also the the reverse question is so

50:30

interesting to how does going

50:33

along not violate the sense of

50:35

self a couple of years ago i

50:37

read this book called they thought

50:39

they were free it's

50:41

just about ordinary germans who joined the nazi

50:44

party no one

50:46

book can i tell you so much but what really struck

50:48

me from it is just the role of very

50:50

petty resentments the don't

50:53

think too much about the global picture

50:56

then you just pissed that those condescending

50:59

or richer than you people over there

51:02

and it

51:03

i bet

51:05

and the idea of yourself

51:07

is

51:08

in relationship to the

51:10

people you think of already wronged you are the

51:12

ways in which you feel your life has been unfair

51:16

and i mean where it all into going

51:18

of course the nazi germany and and i'm jewish

51:21

is that

51:23

is what it is but what

51:25

the so chilling about that book was

51:28

how many political

51:31

movements the

51:33

incentives of these just

51:36

ordinary members of the party could

51:38

describe

51:39

the i'm adding does does entirely right and

51:41

there's something that we i always leave

51:43

out of these the conversations

51:46

which is it's fun

51:47

no it's

51:50

fun deserted the get in and much these

51:52

people that you reserve getting their head chopped

51:54

off there are wild street

51:56

dance is over the dancing the

51:58

karma neural and singing this song

51:59

ha ha

52:00

got them back so

52:03

it is street party in party in way

52:06

banding together with like minded people

52:08

and feeling you've accomplished something especially

52:11

if people tell you that this thing that you're doing is

52:13

basically good it's

52:15

very potent and

52:18

if it weren't fun on some level

52:20

people wouldn't do it the

52:22

moon terrible thing to say that it's fun but

52:24

i don't know whether you read

52:26

build buford essay on

52:29

joining football hooligan gang

52:32

and amazing

52:33

the adrenaline

52:35

none exhilaration the feeling that

52:38

i haven't had this much fun since like forever

52:40

i'm just having of i'm by feel so alive

52:43

you know hitting people in the nose center

52:46

and people describe the

52:48

sort of that will energy

52:51

that comes over them and then there is a real

52:53

adrenaline

52:55

rush and happen and we can't leave

52:57

that out you

52:59

cannot leave that out

53:15

if you're hiring you know can feel like looking

53:17

for a needle in a haystack the

53:19

just hope the right canada comes along

53:21

the nominee you zip recruiter zip

53:23

recruiter technology finds qualified candidates

53:26

for you then actively invite some

53:28

to apply that four out of

53:30

five employers who post and zip recruiter that

53:32

a coffin then it it within the first that trying

53:34

to free today i zip recruiter dot com

53:37

slash and y t at zip

53:39

recruiter dot com flash n y

53:41

t the recruiter the

53:43

smartest way to higher

53:49

and

53:53

you've written over the years a lot of very vivid

53:55

dystopias why not utopias

53:58

well now

53:59

now we're getting into it now

54:02

, getting into the problem since the

54:05

nineteenth century was of was

54:08

was of of utopias so

54:10

many of them were written that gilbert and sullivan

54:12

right an author called utopia ltd

54:15

which is a satire on it but

54:17

you only satirize something that's something that's

54:19

you know this becomes

54:21

the blog

54:23

why did they right so many utopias

54:25

because they'd , made

54:27

so many amazing discoveries

54:29

that and change things so

54:32

germs who knew him

54:33

then we know about them now

54:36

look what we can do now that we know about

54:38

germs maybe , wash

54:40

your hands before delivering babies and

54:42

giving everybody peripheral fever the when

54:44

we had been doing before steam

54:47

engines wow this engines wow

54:50

steam

54:51

machinery and factories look

54:53

at that sewing machines wow

54:56

home , that was all hand sewing and

54:59

what might be coming jules

55:01

verne writing about submarines

55:04

on the way air travel

55:06

around the world in eighty days so we

55:08

just going to get better

55:10

there were some problems like the woman problem

55:12

that they have toby is usually solved

55:14

those by , them women

55:17

a better deal and less clothing and

55:21

all different kinds and they solved overpopulation

55:24

various ways one in the muslim future

55:26

people just wouldn't be interested wouldn't be

55:29

i read a lot of those and thing when

55:32

i was victorian

55:33

and then people start writing that money

55:35

twentieth century why

55:38

because too many of them were tried in

55:40

real life on a grand scale

55:43

though the soviet union cousin

55:45

as a utopia hitler's

55:48

germany terms and as a utopia

55:50

the only for certain people

55:53

the reunion and tried to be more inclusive

55:56

and at first you had to kill those people

55:58

like because tax and

55:59

lives and what have you but then

56:01

but then you can have the utopia

56:04

and maoist china comes in

56:06

as

56:06

the utopia and

56:08

lots of others and then it's not

56:11

great

56:12

though

56:13

instead we get we get we

56:15

buy afghanis m yeah and we get

56:18

nineteen eighty four we get and fahrenheit

56:20

four five one it's not

56:22

great and it becomes very difficult

56:25

to write a utopia because nobody believes

56:27

and anymore they'd seen

56:29

the results

56:31

i think we're getting back to if

56:33

not

56:34

that have utopia but first we have to kill

56:36

all those people think

56:39

we're getting to the point where we're saying

56:42

unless we improved away we're living

56:44

unless we're change the way reliving goodbye

56:48

homo sapiens sapiens

56:51

you cannot contain

56:52

the wanted planet as a man sized

56:54

land those oxygen branding

56:56

mammal there isn't enough

56:58

oxygen which

57:01

is what will happen if we kill the

57:03

oceans and cut down on the trees

57:05

so

57:07

we are looking into the

57:10

there are all of a gun as

57:12

a species and

57:15

the big debate now as okay

57:17

how much how soon can be done and

57:19

will people even go for it and

57:22

meanwhile you've got all of these other problems

57:24

that the problems you're trying to solve

57:27

is causing

57:28

though cascading

57:30

the series of events hannah

57:33

be reversed though

57:35

some into thinking is being directed

57:38

towards yes it can

57:40

unless you doing yes it can you're gonna

57:42

do know i can't and ,

57:44

it's know it can't goodbye us us

57:47

i am working with a platform

57:50

cold and disco to

57:52

do an online

57:54

to go utopias course in which

57:56

people will like

57:58

lego minecraft

58:02

basically they will examine

58:04

the components of our material

58:06

way of living like white house what

58:09

from like clothing what

58:11

energy

58:12

han way

58:14

hearn and around on the material level

58:17

in order to do that what will our social

58:19

organization have to be like the

58:22

what form of government do you propose

58:24

for this utopia that you're gonna build

58:26

though provide

58:28

them with and than tools that are now already

58:30

available different ways of

58:32

building houses different ways of making fabrics

58:35

different ways of providing

58:37

clothing center different energy

58:40

forms let's see what you can put

58:42

together out of that and who's

58:44

gonna run this thing very

58:46

fundamental questions

58:48

have you ever constructed utopia even

58:50

just for yourself that you find convincing

58:53

not yet

58:55

i know their pit

58:57

having read so many of them you'll

58:59

notice that notice put one into oregon

59:02

craig and the mad at him trilogy

59:06

and that's an engineered species

59:08

that that lacks our the

59:11

drawback shall we say

59:12

but there are also for a human

59:14

being like us gary boring

59:18

and it also seems to me there

59:21

before we got into that that the planning for

59:23

a it might be different

59:26

the the principal you are

59:28

at least implying is were like we had a better society

59:31

trying to avoid dystopias

59:34

and create utopias maybe utopias

59:36

crit too much potential for moral blackmailer

59:38

something

59:39

they're joined the hip

59:42

and let us say also that one person

59:44

utopias another person's dystopia

59:46

which is the same you often find in

59:49

, writing of utopias dystopias

59:52

the other thing goes back to your initial queries

59:54

about stories what happens

59:57

to stories once you have utopia

59:59

when are we gonna

1:00:01

tell stories about because surely there's

1:00:03

no conflict anymore we've eliminated

1:00:07

i figure with stories dude utopias realizes never

1:00:10

such thing as utopia that's a

1:00:12

problem so the

1:00:14

utopian which everybody absolutely

1:00:16

lives happily ever after forever never

1:00:18

is very unlikely because we are who we

1:00:20

are the word people dead

1:00:22

and certain kinds of communist

1:00:24

societies was it was fine to tell stories

1:00:27

about how awful things were before

1:00:29

communism

1:00:30

that was great

1:00:32

you could do that

1:00:34

there are certain kinds of stories become more

1:00:36

plausible than others

1:00:38

so in the middle of a totalitarian

1:00:40

dictatorship you don't want to be telling stories

1:00:42

about how awful totalitarian dictatorships

1:00:45

are because off with your head

1:00:49

one reason i ask this is it something

1:00:53

that i worry about sometimes it's

1:00:55

of it what the right has

1:00:58

for side

1:01:00

the an inspiring vision of the past

1:01:03

the left has lost and inspiring

1:01:06

vision of the future i know

1:01:08

some i should say i know there's i fi read is working

1:01:10

working with the top is now i know becky chambers's

1:01:13

read a book but it is rather actually on that theme

1:01:16

but i think or something to that nevertheless

1:01:18

like nevertheless

1:01:19

sometimes i worry that

1:01:22

the left has become about preventing

1:01:24

disaster but doesn't quite have

1:01:27

a vision

1:01:28

have what it is tried to create

1:01:30

yeah gonna have to do preventing disaster

1:01:33

plus improving people's lives

1:01:35

plus it'll be fun

1:01:37

it'll be fine as i think an optimist peace

1:01:40

well there is a

1:01:43

he or his hand and call self flagellating

1:01:46

streak on me laughed

1:01:49

as it is currently constituted

1:01:51

that that if it's fun it can't be good

1:01:53

they miss the point it

1:01:56

was not fun on some level people aren't going

1:01:58

to do this

1:02:01

so is it about how virtuous

1:02:03

you are or is it about actually

1:02:06

trying to better conditions

1:02:08

the only about have virtuous you

1:02:10

are then you're probably

1:02:12

in and to know me and puritan

1:02:15

and if it's actually

1:02:17

about trying to improve

1:02:19

conditions you might be

1:02:21

william morris socialist

1:02:25

william morris thought that not only could you

1:02:27

improve conditions but you could make them more

1:02:29

fun and more beautiful there's

1:02:32

a lot of them puritanical

1:02:34

and to know me and think that beauty is

1:02:36

beside the point it's actually

1:02:38

not

1:02:39

one of the questions always wondered about

1:02:41

myself a somebody works in do is

1:02:43

in a particular cured of human history

1:02:46

the

1:02:47

what are the things that when

1:02:51

his areas look back on because

1:02:53

the be what why the people that take

1:02:55

that more seriously and i'll ask of sort

1:02:58

of fun person of us but then i want us to gen version

1:03:00

of this which this what was

1:03:02

your view of the speed of your phone

1:03:04

do is coming out of pedigree the us government

1:03:07

over the last year the got

1:03:09

a ton of attention then everybody just sort of moved

1:03:12

on the upper part came out saying we

1:03:14

the know what to make of any of us

1:03:16

well i think that report says that all

1:03:18

we don't know what to make have any of this and

1:03:23

if you then don't have more of the story

1:03:25

of course it's gonna move on because of the

1:03:27

story as we know know there's not much

1:03:29

to and

1:03:29

the

1:03:31

we don't know oh

1:03:33

now as tuesday and we still don't know and

1:03:36

and thursday

1:03:37

we also don't know on thursday so

1:03:40

it isn't a story

1:03:42

if it ends with we don't know and there's nothing

1:03:44

else to add streets again the nature

1:03:47

of the stories if there is no next chapter

1:03:50

what can you say we still don't know

1:03:53

that's a disadvantage of being a creature

1:03:55

the think stories there are many disadvantages

1:03:58

but there are many advantages

1:03:59

if there weren't that many advantages we

1:04:02

wouldn't be doing it

1:04:04

what do you think are the stories

1:04:06

there are obviously

1:04:09

there that will be think that

1:04:11

the cheap are coming decades and that we're not paying

1:04:14

attention to and and i want to put out your things

1:04:16

that maybe we're not doing enough on like climate crisis

1:04:18

but we are pay more attention to

1:04:20

our authoritarianism what are the things that

1:04:22

really don't the disgusting even

1:04:25

though they seem to you like

1:04:27

they are fundamental

1:04:30

herbert mushrooms let's talk about mushrooms

1:04:32

that's a really good story i love the mushroom

1:04:34

story so ,

1:04:36

sheldrake is probably the first new wanna

1:04:38

be talking to to

1:04:41

we're now learning how to make all kinds of things

1:04:43

out of out that we

1:04:45

were in even thinking about a little while ago

1:04:47

so you can get a mushroom carson and

1:04:50

you can make building blocks out

1:04:52

of my you can make fabric of

1:04:54

machine

1:04:55

and this is a than apart

1:04:57

for many

1:04:58

would and medical uses

1:05:00

that they may have so

1:05:02

i'd say keep your eye on the mushrooms

1:05:05

they may be entering your life sooner

1:05:07

than you think

1:05:09

like at answer quite a bit of

1:05:12

, the show and book recommendations

1:05:14

and you've also done a wonderful

1:05:17

number of children's books and and

1:05:19

if graphic novels i'm the as get

1:05:21

your little bit different after don't

1:05:23

don't do this to me the letters

1:05:26

you books you recommend to the audience for

1:05:28

adults and what a to children's books you recommend

1:05:31

okay so i did

1:05:33

take out as told story

1:05:35

and i have three and the

1:05:37

no showed them to you so this

1:05:39

is margaret macmillan spoken

1:05:41

war pretty general

1:05:44

mater what how conflict shaped us

1:05:46

one of the take away from it is apparently

1:05:49

we're not teaching the military

1:05:51

studies or military history and universities

1:05:54

anymore that's a mistake though

1:05:57

good read more how conflict saved

1:05:59

us mcmillan this

1:06:02

one by somebody

1:06:05

who lives out near you call jennifer

1:06:07

aber heart

1:06:09

it called bias

1:06:11

then it got the statistics

1:06:14

though for people who wanna know well

1:06:16

actually how does this que

1:06:20

life in real time in the actual

1:06:22

world here's , book that

1:06:24

talks about but it's racial bias

1:06:27

and she's done know

1:06:29

the done the work

1:06:31

not just anecdotal the

1:06:33

this one will surprise you

1:06:36

i hope by

1:06:38

eliza read

1:06:40

the chris of this broker

1:06:43

and what is it about it's

1:06:45

, life in iceland surprised

1:06:50

iceland a small three

1:06:53

where people tend to be related

1:06:55

in some way to one another and

1:06:58

the fact that this

1:07:00

land there's twelve vikings which

1:07:03

always had pretty powerful determined

1:07:06

female figures

1:07:08

how

1:07:09

women's equality gender

1:07:12

equality and financial

1:07:14

, play out in

1:07:16

iceland so isn't possible

1:07:19

to have possible to equitable society

1:07:22

yes says iceland not

1:07:25

that they don't have problems it's not

1:07:27

a utopia i've , there several

1:07:29

times and what's always impressed

1:07:31

me about it is the resources

1:07:34

are fairly sparse no

1:07:36

they don't have a lot of stuff to make stuff

1:07:38

out it

1:07:39

but what they have they years

1:07:42

so you can get

1:07:44

they see we'd jewelry there

1:07:47

pretty interesting place maybe

1:07:49

only work so well because it's not

1:07:52

huge yeah that often seems to be secret

1:07:54

of highly solidarity oriented

1:07:56

society

1:07:57

doesn't always work so scotland wasn't

1:07:59

the

1:08:01

there is having battles of

1:08:04

to to children's books other

1:08:06

to children's books it that you've just loved over the

1:08:08

years

1:08:09

the am i allowed to say charlotte's web

1:08:11

absolutely

1:08:12

man thing charlotte's web about

1:08:15

, spider had saved the life of i am

1:08:17

tig doomed for slaughter interestingly

1:08:20

enough through words the

1:08:23

spider manages to tell a story

1:08:25

about the pig that makes him exceptional

1:08:28

is , earnest a good yes it's a good his

1:08:30

words some that there

1:08:33

we delve into

1:08:35

lord of the rings is that a children's

1:08:38

book it is if you say this

1:08:40

if i said us no thanks

1:08:42

and the maybe it's a children's books

1:08:47

yeah have a got really interested

1:08:49

in it because of my

1:08:52

nineteenth century studies

1:08:55

so , it is a lot of names

1:08:57

that occur earlier and and

1:09:00

century fantasy and

1:09:02

co the supernatural

1:09:04

females him dwelling figure and

1:09:07

rider haggard she splits and and to

1:09:10

and becomes too supernatural

1:09:13

female figures in lord of the rings

1:09:15

one is a good supernatural thing here com

1:09:17

the landry er he

1:09:19

has the very same for testing

1:09:22

water pool mirror that that

1:09:24

she has and the

1:09:26

other one becomes a

1:09:29

carnivorous evil huge

1:09:31

spider creature

1:09:33

called see lob anywhere

1:09:37

lot of these one of the and to signal

1:09:40

to lord of the rings are pretty interesting

1:09:42

to me

1:09:43

margaret atwood your new book is burning

1:09:45

questions what a pleasure thank you so much

1:09:47

then a pleasure to talk to you and good

1:09:50

luck with

1:09:51

everything that you're doing

1:09:53

and also with the rest of your life

1:09:56

they do

1:10:06

it about so his production

1:10:08

of new york times opinion displease there was a karma

1:10:10

and calvin and just yelled stuff check by

1:10:12

michelle harris isn't fair and mary march

1:10:14

locker regional music is by isaac

1:10:17

jones and mixing by just yelled are

1:10:19

secular producer is irene the gucci special

1:10:21

thanks dissented buster christine simplicity

1:10:24

coral and house and prosthesis