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think

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is the ezra punch

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we are get ready to do the ask me anything

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episode six you got anything you like to ask

1:01

me that any issue of the south that me

1:04

send it your question that as pine so at

1:06

n y times comes with the

1:08

subject line a m a

1:16

we wind few years and

1:18

the idea of europe scenes

1:21

exhausted is ,

1:23

in these labyrinth thing regulatory

1:25

projects of the you you fractured

1:28

by debt crises and backset it's

1:30

dependent on russian oil and gas

1:33

is very little idealism lusted that union

1:36

but was europe at that point even for two

1:39

weeks that the question had an answer it

1:41

was this europe was

1:44

for an end to war in

1:46

europe that was the european idea

1:48

as as tony shoot put it's europe was post

1:51

war but now we are

1:53

watching are land war in europe

1:55

one that is trashed be assumptions

1:57

of many european leaders building

1:59

the put in didn't stop him from invading

2:02

ukraine he gave of the money he needed

2:04

to do it opening , door

2:06

for countries such as ukraine to join nato

2:08

and the you without truly deciding

2:11

whether you're wanted responsibility for the security

2:13

or that would take responsibility for their security

2:17

doing that provoked russia without

2:20

giving thought to what would happen then

2:22

what you would do if russia lost

2:24

out and an outsourcing so

2:27

much defense spending to the us

2:29

wow that looks like a pretty bad idea

2:31

after trump and a pretty bad idea

2:34

now that putin has actually started a

2:36

war so europe is changing

2:39

it's heavy to rebuild itself in

2:41

the wreckage of so many treasured

2:43

police but what does it changing

2:45

into i've been crossed of

2:47

chairs the center for liberal strategies in sofia

2:50

he's a sounding board member of the european council

2:52

on foreign relations and the author of the book after

2:55

europe and exist among was interesting

2:57

and air you die people you talk

2:59

to on the subject of europe of liberalism

3:02

of democracy and all the tensions

3:04

there and

3:05

those my email as replied to and

3:07

my times

3:13

i've been crushed of welcome to the show

3:15

thank you very much for inviting

3:17

though i had a first question but

3:20

when we're just talking beforehand you told

3:22

me when you been thinking about which is

3:24

you feel that we are so obsessed

3:27

with a question of what will happen that

3:29

we mess what has happened the

3:32

tell me what has happened

3:34

listen one of the things that strikes

3:36

me is , the changes

3:39

happening so quickly quickly

3:41

people really are missing seeing

3:43

some very obvious things for example for

3:46

the last ten last europe was

3:48

very much centered by at least

3:50

three crisis one was

3:52

for the financial crisis which was the financial

3:54

economic he says the cs

3:56

impoverishment of the population at what is

3:58

going to happen and then you have the

4:00

russia first kind of phoenixes

4:03

of crimea war in donbass and

4:05

then basically you have the refugee crisis to into

4:07

sixteen the first thing that we're not seeing

4:10

kids that oldest crisis came back

4:14

if you're going to see what is happening

4:16

on the economic story we're

4:18

talking about inflation we're probably going

4:20

to talk about the decline of did gdp

4:23

the discomfort do

4:25

what happened in twenty eight twenty nine he

4:28

, see the refugee crisis basically we're

4:30

going to see more refugees coming out of there

4:32

as ukrainian war war of

4:34

the war in the middle east and

4:36

by the way this is going to be the biggest movement of

4:38

people in europe since the world war world and

4:41

then basically so going to talk about

4:43

tough to first russia

4:45

ukrainian war when it started so

4:47

now we're going to see a totally different scale so

4:50

suddenly old disagree came back

4:52

but they came in a very different way they

4:54

came in as a different way that we didn't see

4:56

that's this is the same price is coming

4:58

back and for me this is one

5:00

of the think sex and least i was surprised

5:03

how quickly sit on things that we have been taken

5:05

have granted give been totally

5:08

set or for example just

5:10

example year ago europeans

5:12

have been convinced that the major war

5:14

is not possible in europe if

5:17

you're basically go is the same as donny

5:19

just histories europe of after night in

5:21

forty five called postwar post

5:24

, was the very definition of what your of was

5:26

europe was a project european union

5:28

bored out of the woodwork to but also

5:30

project that is based on the idea that the major

5:33

war is not possible anymore and now

5:35

it's change daughter this even before

5:37

the russian invasion a european council

5:40

on foreign relations did studies

5:42

in several of the eu member states and majority

5:44

of people claim that they're going to be or to

5:46

the end of the the diverse

5:48

story is no trial he did it was talk and talk

5:51

and talk and then over two months

5:53

now we expect that sweden and

5:55

finland two countries for which no try to

5:57

was the identity probably

5:59

going to hundred or germany

6:02

a country the didn't have didn't have drawn for

6:04

now they believe it's unethical

6:07

they never bought a drone and now

6:09

the same country is talking about

6:11

investing sanger it billion euros

6:14

in the rearmament this rearmament this

6:16

a big changes but because everything

6:18

happens so fast we're not understanding

6:21

how dramatically disses and

6:23

we just thinking what is going to come next

6:26

let me take those three crises from beginning

6:29

and party be number one and number two the economic

6:31

and refugee crisis

6:34

because i've been thinking a bit

6:36

along the same lines part of the around refugees

6:38

and one thing that is striking is

6:41

, differently populations respond

6:43

to stress when there is a story

6:45

behind it it a financial

6:48

crisis caused by bankers or

6:50

to some in in europe cause by the greeks

6:53

that's one thing that you're you're mad at you're leaders

6:55

you're mad at your fellow you're members

6:58

by it causes lot of internal distributions

7:01

refugees coming from syria which is

7:03

up place in europe for very

7:05

little connection to is , another

7:08

kind of crisis an invasion rabid the

7:10

it becomes a huge political problems problems

7:13

this forest for hearing about the way ukrainian refugees

7:15

are being taken that are very different the

7:18

way people i assume are understanding

7:20

is some of the economic i'm all

7:22

right now is different how

7:24

much does it matter if there is a

7:27

unifying external enemy

7:29

and the person about him or putin compared

7:31

, when these crises felt

7:33

too many people more like the fruits of poor

7:36

liberal government's

7:38

hotelier the narrative is critically important

7:40

because when people don't see who

7:43

is responsible for what is happening

7:45

the conspiracy theories comes and

7:48

the story was of course there was a major war in

7:50

syria but people cannot identify

7:52

because they don't understand it was all these

7:54

kinds of a quite we could talk about of

7:57

economic migrants so are they refugees

8:00

and now you see award that you understand

8:03

particularly countries like poland that

8:05

is receiving know three million people this

8:07

is the bird dogs during the first

8:10

refugee crisis bolland

8:12

was one of the countries have closed themselves

8:15

the lottery for refugees and

8:17

suddenly you see the same poland's three

8:19

million people volunteers private

8:22

persons volunteers going to the borders

8:24

driving their cars why because

8:27

they understand is why they

8:29

can identified and they double

8:31

it's also the pandemic has pandemic role in this

8:34

before people in europe particularly self

8:36

protected against any major disaster

8:38

we have been complaining of course we have been

8:41

and hip who's this and dad but still had the

8:43

feeling that you're living you're living when

8:45

nothing dramatic and happen to you

8:48

then came the pandemic and they came this war

8:50

and to identify with this people and

8:52

the sir think which i found really important

8:55

was dead it's not that the ukrainian

8:57

suffer they suffer but they fought

8:59

back this level

9:01

of heroism particularly

9:04

, a society like europeans were

9:06

terrorism was kind of proceeds to something

9:08

coming from the past is critically

9:10

important metal breast has settled

9:12

on once upon a time that you

9:14

feel sorry for nations that's

9:16

neat heroes heroes at some

9:18

point basically will sources feel sorry

9:20

for nations that do not need steals

9:24

and from this point the of the ukrainians

9:26

the very fact that they did something that nobody

9:28

expected from them straight to disrespect

9:32

so you're not simply going to meet

9:35

suffering people refugees but you're meeting

9:37

calls and trying to welcome a respectful

9:40

people people for victorious in their

9:42

resistors idol is this also has

9:44

a huge importance to understanding is

9:46

not simply a narrative but it's a narrative

9:49

as a heroic resistance

9:51

how unifying this story

9:53

inch because another

9:55

way of looking at it is that this is

9:58

what is being ported germany's making this defense

10:00

expenditure keep are taking in refugees

10:03

in poland but then you look

10:05

at the country that is currently undergoing

10:08

a moment of small the democratic

10:10

countability france where there is

10:12

an aussie going on and

10:15

le pen is making a very strong challenge

10:17

to mccrone in hungry or

10:19

bond was reelected easily now he

10:21

has created a system where be very hard

10:23

for anything that happens but for him to be reelected

10:26

easily but still in

10:28

the to data points we have

10:31

hungry and and the race in france

10:33

the more pro putin politicians

10:37

don't seem to be suffering

10:39

the complete the exile

10:41

from politics in the way that

10:43

some might have expected

10:45

you're right and the it's even going deeper

10:47

the problem is not simply house

10:50

drunk is disunity but how long it's gonna

10:52

last because

10:54

meeting people hostage people

10:56

living in your house for three

10:58

miles four miles for six months

11:01

for , along so discovered the problem

11:03

of what is going to happen next for the government's

11:06

supplied to put it is a momentum momentum

11:08

this momentum is also dividing kinda case of

11:10

france as in on the first round

11:12

mccrone prevailed now the second round is going

11:14

to come on sunday eve we

11:16

trust opinion polls he's going to win

11:19

but of course these victories are going to be the glorious

11:21

victory that he expected but part

11:23

of the story is that what

11:26

happened in france is that well mccrone

11:28

was focusing on the war the

11:31

major message of lapan was

11:33

everybody cares know about ukrainians who cares

11:36

about your french people so

11:38

you start and in europe a kind of

11:40

olympics of suffering chris

11:43

suffering most is basically

11:45

the forgot and french farmer is

11:48

doing worse than

11:51

the ukrainians because his suffering because

11:53

invisible and this invisible

11:55

and moment in which there is a unity but there is a

11:57

very strong nationalist sentiment

12:00

and of course are both le pen and

12:02

urban did it very clear that they

12:04

don't stand behind the invasion saw

12:06

the against the war but a major

12:08

message was we don't like what was

12:10

in his doing but , most important

12:13

for us that we care about one people

12:15

and he something that they find this a major

12:18

change compared to for example is the late

12:20

nineteen nineties people and i'll talk

12:22

and i'll about the impact of the

12:24

costs of war and nato

12:26

or basically bumping of belgrade on

12:28

what is happening in russia and

12:30

how the russians were pursuing themselves but

12:33

one of the interesting story about the kosovo war

12:35

was that from the western point

12:37

of view the message of the war was

12:40

we care about people who are not like us

12:43

the amusement and , ready

12:45

to die or at least least

12:47

kill for place in which there is no oil

12:50

so innocently was perceived was innocently was

12:53

humanitarian was so they deal

12:55

was that when we talk about rights we normally

12:57

talk about rights of the minorities of the most

12:59

vulnerable groups and not only about

13:02

people like as i remember in

13:04

nineteen eighty nine during the war

13:06

campaigns dani behr came to socio

13:08

and she gave a speech and he said what gladstone

13:10

did for bulgarians in a d

13:13

seventy six during deliberations

13:15

from the ottoman empire we're doing for the costs of

13:17

ours and she was wrong because

13:19

guts don't interfere because bulgaria's

13:21

were christians like him then

13:24

he had a major message was this people

13:26

of different than us what in my view

13:28

is changing kiss that you see the people

13:31

against , very much to focus

13:33

on people like them in a certain

13:35

way you identifying for example both isn't

13:37

to fight with the cranial because they

13:39

do believe that they have have which

13:41

is the same enemy and this was not

13:43

the same in syria regardless of decide

13:45

what it was dressed as bumping as

13:48

but this was not type of identification

13:50

is not simply that you have a common

13:52

enemies but you're seeing that you can be

13:54

the next and described

13:57

as the next in which people have a solidarity

13:59

but it's a silly dairy give their own groups

14:02

yes there's a way of understanding the refugee

14:04

story right now with the

14:06

ukrainians as very inspiring

14:10

more difficult and i think also true a to understand

14:12

it is , when makes it inspiring

14:15

is how different it is from

14:17

previous refugee stories and

14:19

that question of who we care about and

14:21

why when do we care

14:25

when does it become a front page news day

14:27

after day after day after day crack because

14:29

russia's invasion of ukraine is a big deal

14:32

but in terms of lives

14:34

in terms of geopolitics it's not like the starvation

14:36

and afghanistan isn't a big deal or the war

14:38

in yemen is in a big deal or any

14:40

number of other conflicts or catastrophes

14:43

we can name so the

14:45

one hand the solidarity with ukrainians

14:47

is it genuinely wonderful

14:50

moment i think an in the west but

14:53

that's thrown into sharp relief by all the times

14:55

we have not offered that solidarity or

14:57

have even gone and the other direction

15:00

no i totally agree with you with sure there is

15:02

a basic problem and ,

15:04

it's most radical form it looks like this

15:07

kinda last all kids in the

15:09

world as drunk as you love your kids

15:12

the what extent does that and preferences

15:14

that the so strongly embedded in all of us

15:17

that , it comes to solidarity certain type

15:19

of a community suddenly it's ends up to

15:21

be more important and don't think this because on

15:23

one level what you're seeing is very

15:26

true on the other the fact that this

15:28

is happening in europe and this is russia taking

15:30

ukraine and on syria also explained

15:32

effect by many countries outside of europe

15:34

and the united states do not

15:36

care much about the war

15:39

for example the majority of the countries

15:42

that you've been invited by president biden

15:44

on the summit of democrats do

15:47

not sanctioned has

15:50

some of these countries important countries you have countries

15:52

like india but also you have a kind of a symbolic

15:54

places like south africa they

15:58

obviously don't approve what russians doing

16:01

much , them to systems not so important

16:03

because it's not so much about them

16:05

and because they see other things because they have

16:07

other calculations sauce in

16:09

my god this is one of the interesting story

16:12

that we can see in the moment you

16:14

mister globalization is in crisis crisis

16:16

moment the world globalized suddenly

16:19

universalism ended up in up

16:22

in a way we had a much more

16:24

kind of like readiness to

16:26

identify with different people and people

16:28

from satellites us when this

16:31

people have much more part of our imaginations

16:33

and part of our personal experience say

16:35

some back seat on that he manuel comes to

16:38

guy who basically conway said

16:40

this universe of his tragic sent ideas

16:43

was famous for never leaving his down this

16:46

is what they've found kind to reflect

16:48

interesting

16:50

yes it is very much there's

16:52

very much something to that and

16:54

it to the point you made about this country's another thing

16:56

you hear in the reporting from them is

16:59

it when they look out

17:02

and they see america and

17:04

europe rallying global

17:07

opinion against russia as you

17:09

say they may not support with russia did but

17:12

they see less difference than

17:14

we do between

17:16

what russia did then what

17:18

we do and i

17:20

as i as of my own we hear don't

17:22

want to draw what i consider to be a

17:24

false equivalence at the same time

17:27

i think we're seeing here it

17:30

it has built a deeper

17:32

reservoir of weakness then

17:34

we always had met for

17:37

america will say to violated

17:39

international law so often

17:41

you've been an expansionist

17:44

power many times over the past

17:46

twenty or thirty years to point itself

17:48

the global policemen there

17:50

are real ways here where

17:52

the case we make

17:54

the ourselves is not believed it

17:56

seems to me by by other countries to say why

17:58

hear what you say but but

17:59

what you know

18:01

it isn't you're absolutely right and damage accusation

18:04

to the west you know this country says he books

18:07

and a major thing that basically put in believes

18:09

that she's doing kiss teaching

18:12

the west a lesson i'm just

18:14

think what you're doing just see yourself i'm

18:16

the mirror of yours he's obsessed

18:18

with the hypocrisy of the west on the other

18:20

side there is one major difference which is at least

18:23

important for me when i'm trying to

18:25

say basically decide for myself

18:27

how right or wrong we are seeing these

18:29

are dead isn't the tortures atrocities

18:32

this is not the only thing that's not only the

18:34

rest of that are doing this we remember

18:36

burglary and what's happened during the two thousand

18:39

and three and four in the track but

18:41

there is a major difference when this happens

18:44

there was was outrage there

18:46

was a senate investigation saying

18:49

what was the chain of command who

18:51

knew what is going com deceased

18:53

, absent in the russian

18:56

ukrainian case the russian president

18:58

decided to make heroes of the people that

19:00

have been accused of committing

19:02

to a crimes against civilians

19:05

and this civilians and major difference so

19:07

the major difference is not what

19:09

the military do the major difference

19:11

is basically to the downside

19:13

is ready to face leave

19:16

, that they're doing and from this point

19:18

of view there is a famous italian historian

19:20

who says something that they found some particularly

19:23

convincing he said you know that you understand

19:26

which is denise into which belongs

19:28

this which belongs the nation that you love most

19:31

but this is the nation that you ashamed us

19:33

so the fact that you feel kind

19:35

of a much more stewart and

19:38

kind of uneasy about the things

19:40

that america's do it can deliver to simply approved

19:42

a to america and the thing

19:44

that basically makes the russians losing

19:47

a lot of the moral respect that they

19:49

have gained because us what are

19:51

their parents and grandparents did

19:53

during the world would talks is exactly

19:55

this do not apologize

19:57

do not confess any type of the wrong

20:00

try basically to dismiss any

20:03

type of a suffering that you said injected on

20:05

others then demanded this demanded this

20:07

for nice because this is demoralizing they since

20:10

i want to use as a bit of a bridge to

20:13

a different question of projection here

20:16

which , projection it from

20:18

europe as to what europe is internally

20:21

and and from europe as to what other countries

20:23

are externally and

20:25

let's begin with or the ladder you

20:27

wrote that europeans made europeans mistake

20:30

universal i think your post world war two experience

20:33

countries like russia let me about that

20:36

and it's a very interesting stories are go

20:38

back to the they deny

20:40

does not immediately night night one

20:42

night united to went there was a lot of kind

20:44

of uncertainty and sped

20:46

away this year of skills and disorder so

20:49

does not feel full isn't immediately

20:51

have to be entered the cold war but

20:53

in the last part of the night tonight is

20:55

the beginning of two thousand suddenly

20:58

because something that we did not

21:00

expect serpent i mean soviet union collapsed

21:03

we decided that we know what is going to happen

21:05

into shit i was seeking was

21:07

basically a disease of disease german colleague

21:09

of mine who made this great observations decided

21:12

to pieces he predicts the

21:14

soviet union collapsed made

21:16

the west coast see them that was know what is going

21:18

to happen next and

21:21

here the story was rushed is going to

21:23

follow the development of fun germany after

21:25

would would talks but the servicing

21:27

serpents one is your six her but

21:30

, economy collapsed collapsed

21:33

always getting this example what if you're coming

21:36

from an alien an and

21:38

to don't know anything that happened after ninety

21:40

ninety ninety ninety one should just

21:43

going to see going gdp of

21:45

the country since what's happened to them in this sucks

21:47

for five this six years you

21:49

look at sir soviet union under six and

21:51

three that under the major war there

21:53

was one source of digit p c

21:56

have this secondly

21:58

while russians were quite happy

22:01

that communism and didn't i do believe

22:03

majority of them were

22:05

for them the and

22:06

the the communism does not meant

22:08

the and the soviet union it

22:11

was true for many people in the republic's

22:13

it was quite natural for the west but

22:17

for them this , a surprise

22:20

surprise thirdly this was the mystery of

22:22

defeat to imagine defeat

22:24

know why dollars if we're going to repeat what

22:26

happens we're going to understand how

22:28

strong the shock was usually

22:31

nuclear power that basically cannot

22:33

be defeated military because the moment you're going to

22:35

defeat them they're going to destroy the world that

22:38

has survived go lox

22:41

world war two major

22:43

, misery southerly they to

22:45

let silver knight and nobody

22:47

decided to defend the communist system nobody

22:50

decided to die for the soviet union even

22:52

intelligence officer who was in gdr

22:55

at this moment put it's none

22:57

of these people basically did it i'm

22:59

saying this because this sense as gifts

23:02

and misunderstanding you don't understand

23:04

what understand disposed of very

23:07

strong conspiracy thinking strong

23:09

politics one of the things

23:11

that is absolutely amazing not about putting

23:13

but about about political debate is

23:16

that the really adopted

23:18

the very conspiratorial view of how the

23:20

website since when you see five

23:22

thousand people on the street you're not

23:24

asking questions why dare street you're

23:26

asking questions will send them oh

23:29

paid some peace

23:31

created a situation in which in

23:33

my you all expectations the

23:36

trashy simply going to be the repetition

23:38

of what happened to germany after world war

23:40

two was wrong or in a way it was

23:42

right but it was not repetition of what had happened

23:45

to germany have to orbitals associate

23:47

been to germany have to order

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24:34

what we morris i'm a quarter of

24:36

the near times where i co

24:38

host the podcast god still processing

24:42

in , broadest sense it's

24:44

a show about art and culture but

24:46

it's also about going to work

24:49

in haryana with your friends in being

24:51

on the internet internet i do this

24:53

work with the incomparable journalism

24:55

for sissies in general is off

24:57

writing a book so i invited some of

24:59

my favorite writers and critics and

25:01

human being to come hang out with

25:03

me most is dawn what we morris

25:06

wesley more as morris wesley we

25:08

talk about the culture that

25:09

they does the billboard magazine

25:11

hit with her this case ha

25:14

some seizing

25:16

we can do met now so i'm as

25:18

guilt for my interest giving impulses

25:20

and watch the honorees is basically

25:22

a culture unto himself i mean

25:24

maybe he's an empty vessel you

25:28

can listen to still processing were ever get

25:30

your podcast

25:46

i really like the point

25:48

that the west took the

25:50

club's the soviet union that an unexpected

25:53

events as proof of

25:55

the predictability of human events right

25:57

of of the end of history at least

25:59

as a relevant hypothesis and

26:02

one thing that's interesting about that that i think it's

26:04

into somebody assumptions that have been wrongly

26:07

applied in recent decades is

26:09

that this story that is applied

26:12

to the soviet union's collapse i think correctly

26:14

is it it economic the economic

26:17

your destiny that communism was a

26:19

bad economic system that eventually

26:21

it's own internal contradictions

26:23

around an inability to provide

26:26

a better life for citizens to keep economy

26:28

is growing to produce efficiently and comparison

26:31

to democracies him or capitalist systems that

26:33

that is what makes their

26:36

collapse predictable and then

26:38

apply broadly those are

26:40

the forces a lie to protect any and

26:44

this i think the something that ends

26:46

up informing

26:47

the way the united states and europe treat

26:49

sign of course but also

26:51

russia and you have this

26:53

nice line the are that the false and the same

26:55

piece rewrites capitalism

26:57

is not enough to temper

27:00

authoritarianism trade with dictators

27:02

does not make your country more secure and

27:04

keeping the money of crap leaders your banks

27:07

is not civilized them the

27:09

corrupt

27:10

you

27:12

do you mind talking a bit about the assumptions

27:14

behind that the assumptions that i think we're particularly

27:17

dominant in europe that you can

27:19

civilized other countries through trade

27:22

this was very much the european experience

27:24

as sir thomas bagger a gym

27:26

and diplomat said didn't have history was

27:28

an american books by the germans he added

27:32

and what was so appealing

27:34

to the europeans was dead it's

27:36

basically the older rationality

27:39

is economic the only thing

27:41

that you're really interested in is your gdp

27:43

the welfare of your people any think

27:46

which is based on it's identity

27:48

prides resentment humiliations

27:51

should not be important sauce from this

27:53

point of your set a scene to what extent

27:56

any time that we cannot explain we're

27:58

trying to explain by corruption for

28:01

example all these years when

28:03

we're trying to understand what is going wrong with

28:05

countries like beat russia

28:07

big china be angry we're going to

28:09

focus on corruption interruptions

28:11

there is part of the systems of the

28:13

most important thing that people for example

28:15

missed he's dead so corruption

28:18

you're not going to understand what president

28:20

putting is going to do because there is something

28:22

very nice and to be honest

28:24

if ridiculous to believe that the

28:26

president of a new tab our

28:28

was preoccupied with history and whose

28:30

writings and essays himself

28:33

why the russians and ukrainians of the same people

28:35

is going to have diesel that policies simply

28:38

based on his economic interest particularly private

28:40

economic interests they ,

28:42

that the russian oligarchs

28:45

can present the war simply

28:47

because they want to keep the bank accounts

28:49

shows the fact that we totally eliminated

28:52

the non economic motivations state

28:55

of , but also basically

28:58

of human nature so as a result of

29:00

it we reduce human nature to the economic

29:02

activities and by to say we reduced it's

29:04

a know mixed to the gdp and

29:07

to the standard them leaving well

29:09

in front of allies with seeing that people

29:11

are motivated by totally different things most

29:14

of the big protests that we have seen in

29:16

the last cheat in the world to not

29:18

be simply explained be simply terms we

29:21

like to talk dignity but dignity

29:23

not displaying simply by tsunami sex

29:25

with the something different and she to

29:27

be honest fukuyama was more interesting than some

29:29

of his critics because fully sehgal

29:32

she really made a strong point that

29:34

recognition the struggle

29:37

for recognition is critical to understand

29:39

what is happening to the world by the way

29:41

at his article not so much the book is

29:43

interesting because she was totally misread because

29:46

people read for grandma's article

29:48

is is it was written in my tonight bisping

29:50

be end of history article didn't have history

29:52

always a question mark cel isn't it

29:54

was written in the spring of nineteen eighty nine

29:57

fukuyama did not expect soviet union's collapse

30:00

for him the end of history was

30:02

that it was communist leaders that stability

30:05

in communism suddenly

30:07

basically they accepted the fact that

30:09

the major utopia the justify their political

30:12

order that and

30:14

suddenly what happened what the

30:16

end of communism insect was

30:19

the disintegration of the last european

30:21

empire suddenly ,

30:24

the end of communism almost

30:26

twenty and more new states has been

30:28

born so from this point of view european

30:30

ninety nineties was like african the ninety

30:32

six this this was the

30:34

major side for newly born

30:36

nations this was kind of

30:38

an absence and one of the thing that

30:41

i do believe we went totally wrong is we

30:44

very much marginalized the

30:46

experience of the was well worth of my tinnitus

30:49

suddenly appeared that many of the problems

30:52

that we saw in the period of the

30:54

disintegration of florida were

30:56

not problems coming from the past and problems

30:58

coming from the future when

31:00

my you'll miss recognize the

31:02

sovereignty moment for democrats moments

31:04

see more about that we

31:07

continued to talk about the post cold

31:09

war dot period in terms

31:11

of the cold war but in a

31:13

big way it can turn out the decolonization

31:17

that started to is basically the end of the

31:19

first and then second world war

31:21

is a much more important narrative for the other part

31:23

of the world's simply the cold war

31:25

is arrested this narrative and

31:28

we didn't have the cold war what happened

31:30

was the emergence of and states that they're

31:32

looking for identities and from

31:34

this point of europe is a great story because

31:37

it's european union was created by for

31:39

members that for east europeans

31:42

and this was quite interesting there

31:44

were sharing very much the sentiment of this

31:47

same africans the nation's because

31:49

there was seeing than self as being the product

31:51

of the disintegration of started working

31:53

by ottoman empire arrest him and by

31:56

a sauce these kinds of us

31:58

change of a narrative seed which we can can

32:00

you describe what we have been seen

32:02

in terms of the cold war named democracy

32:04

versus authoritarianism and

32:07

, was true to create extent

32:10

but the much more important was what was the mini

32:12

to sovereignty an interdependent world

32:15

world then this is going to explain as the rice

32:17

is deployed corbyn derisive biblically

32:19

pants so basically obsessed

32:22

with what it means to be sovereign in

32:25

a interdependent floats into question european

32:27

union discuss a much more important

32:29

to us meaning because of the nature of the

32:31

european project

32:33

the will think about this and i'm just

32:35

thinking about this on the fly

32:37

democracy vs sovereignty or

32:39

is it liberalism for sovereignty

32:42

because we often collapse liberalism

32:45

into marks into liberal democracy but as many

32:47

people pointed out yes among yes among

32:50

those can be quite in ten cents

32:53

and often what the demos wants

32:56

not to be as rule

32:58

bow and as cosmopolitan

33:00

as respectful of rights as

33:02

neutral and it's treatment as

33:05

, the the rules and and ideals

33:07

of of liberalism would want want

33:09

what i think of le pen when i think of an urban

33:12

i think something they've understood is

33:15

it democracy is relatively easy to cooperate

33:17

it can be

33:18

the dirt right it can be shaped corrupted

33:21

by orban has but it's also possible

33:23

for you to just when ray

33:25

than and i hope le pen won't we will

33:27

know that by the time comes out but it can happen

33:29

and donald trump was not a very small

33:31

the democratic figure this one in america

33:34

and so

33:35

one of the weaknesses in this period it is often

33:38

seem to me it's has been

33:40

the leaving of liberalism is

33:43

something that has simply one that

33:45

you can take for granted while

33:48

others understood it as something and

33:50

in fact a weakening target that you could fight

33:52

against

33:54

you're very right into a two

33:56

things that you might be a critical for

33:58

understanding this the first when the

34:00

cold war ended the

34:02

assumption in the west was the dc is going

34:04

to change on the west is going to remain to say

34:07

is it any send the western democracies were

34:10

quite blinds to to what extent existence

34:13

their political and social system was

34:15

very much preconditions on the cold

34:17

war and existence of decided june

34:19

the this is a very very

34:21

under done point

34:23

yeah because listen this is extremely important

34:25

when your chest son is on the other side

34:27

claiming that they represent the proletariat

34:31

you should very carefully sink

34:34

, your workers are perceiving what

34:36

is going com com so important

34:38

for you your workers to be on your on

34:41

so the welfare state was not simply

34:44

and economic project the

34:47

welfare state was security project but

34:50

the second think in here of course the west

34:52

is to be blamed but also be

34:54

excused because igniting

34:56

id and what you saw for this first

34:58

two decades is that always european

35:01

societies ourselves if you're going to ask

35:03

us what we want we're going to say we

35:05

want to be the the west so

35:07

imitating the west became

35:09

so understanding of what it means to

35:12

get a good side t to be a liberal democracy

35:14

and then you imitating first of all we're writing constitutions

35:17

with doing this you inviting advisors

35:20

but the problem is imitation is that you

35:23

said to me teach you i basically

35:26

claim that you're better than me and

35:29

what about my identity and here comes the idea

35:31

of the sovereignty i also want to be different

35:34

i , to be like you but also i want

35:36

you to recognize my difference difference

35:38

from this point of view if you're going to see particularly

35:41

do some of his european populist regions

35:43

be hungry be poland

35:45

they have the same psychological kind

35:47

of a trajectory that we know from the

35:49

second generation of generation the

35:52

first generation comes in being very kind being

35:54

willing to accept and to integrate

35:56

into cost society because it was their choice

35:59

but the current generation which is born day or into

36:01

a certainly much more internalize some of the things

36:04

they start to see basically the glass ceilings

36:06

d c basically it's the loss

36:08

of they're all know sent it in identity it's

36:11

and this is very difficult because

36:13

you have the cultural environment in

36:16

which the message is be unique be

36:18

yourself and on the underside

36:21

the political imperative she is be

36:23

like us fulfill all

36:25

doc says obligations and oh

36:27

the tragedy of the european union if

36:29

you want to join and you might have discreet

36:32

to disclose between yes liberalism

36:35

and they the of sovereignty liberalism

36:37

and a d of the will of the people which was

36:39

very skillfully used since

36:41

one of the major message that came also

36:44

in the first years of transition was

36:47

we have been asking for justice and we have been

36:49

given the rule of law the

36:52

him killing people like kaczynski

36:54

who said do , really need

36:56

an independent courts courts

36:59

you really need an independent central banks

37:02

how i can make can revolution somebody

37:04

constraining my power all the time

37:07

let me then ask about a

37:10

the hypothesis that i can't decide if it is the same

37:12

or different than than the one you're offering

37:14

here which is that one

37:17

of the continuous

37:20

difficulties

37:22

the liberal democracy even

37:25

when it is term intention isn't

37:27

your promised an idea and

37:29

what you get his governance

37:31

and it over time this

37:33

is a continuously typical prom for any system

37:35

to be fair that com for communism it

37:37

is a problem for providing are potent moving

37:39

from the idea invade ukraine to the reality

37:42

of invading ukraine but ,

37:44

take the european union as the example

37:46

here the european union is

37:48

such a remarkable idea when

37:50

it emerges the it's for

37:53

runner which is a pact to

37:55

trade coal around the

37:57

understood historically is great

37:59

it's

37:59

firing moment of of a post

38:02

war turning but

38:04

then eventually what you get

38:05

your class and the harmonizing

38:07

of regulations and trade i

38:10

cover elections are busy and in america quite

38:12

often and you see this it minutes

38:14

are constantly elections are exciting

38:16

your promise the idea of idea candidate the idea of their

38:18

platform than you get the disappointment of their

38:20

governments send it

38:22

does seem to be that one of the difficulties

38:25

is it as liberalism went from being

38:28

an idea to being a reality

38:30

one promise it it simply lost the all the tests

38:32

people stopped making

38:35

really the argument for practically after the call

38:37

or but the other problem is

38:39

it is it is disappointing it's

38:41

disappointing to live under these rules

38:44

rule of law it is frustrating constantly

38:46

frustrating and it's more frustrating

38:49

the bigger the area that law and it's to

38:51

rule is

38:52

you're absolutely right oh but first

38:55

one thousand of the social scientists for whom i have the

38:57

size to regard was

38:59

claiming that nevertheless of what do with doing life

39:01

weekend disappoint rambo

39:04

you get involved in politics and

39:06

in ten years to get disappointed you

39:08

go in your private life into said

39:11

that you're not interested in politics you get disappointed

39:13

so normally the

39:15

major strength democracy was the democracy

39:18

better than other societies was dealing with disappointments

39:21

you're disappointed

39:23

and you're going to change government

39:25

you're going to change this and dad and

39:27

you're getting to kind of a new license

39:31

for , seen gates

39:34

gates is changing and in a certain way

39:36

i saw this in eastern europe in one

39:38

way and can american different in

39:40

ninety nineties you're changing the government but you

39:42

have the feeling that you cannot change the policies and

39:47

this creates these kinds of a angry

39:50

, in which you're ready to vote

39:52

for anybody who is

39:54

ready to challenge the system even when

39:56

you don't agree particularly with idea that

39:59

he comes from yeah because

40:01

this is just to try to search your

40:03

agents i can make it because

40:07

if the change of government does not mean

40:09

much either is too much consensus and

40:11

this is the crisis in places like france

40:13

and daughters you see the crisis

40:15

essential politics so

40:18

the politics the citizens was very much

40:20

replaced by the politics a sense political

40:23

, really started to treat their

40:25

voters that ascend clots and by

40:27

doing this is troll sort for non democratic

40:29

regimes like russia russia you

40:31

see the annex a sniff a annexations

40:34

creamy it was like the was performance

40:37

everything is changing quant basically it's not

40:39

sports anymore when you have all

40:42

these people recording crescent soldiers being

40:44

killed being ukraine so

40:46

this story that you seven leaders that

40:49

you should deliver gifts the

40:51

public and on the other

40:53

side use it as a sense who are not citizens

40:56

anymore because they're totally and critical

40:58

to deal and the loyalties

41:00

only unconditional wild and

41:02

, i do with president trump basically

41:04

has the best understanding of loyalty in

41:07

not disciples olds the

41:09

oil is somebody who defense you when she

41:11

knows that you're totally wrong those

41:14

around can moral trump's if you're supporting

41:16

somebody when she's right does not wilde

41:19

as he just a common sense so this

41:21

so this the problem of dissatisfaction ghosts

41:24

because dissatisfaction assumes

41:26

a meaningful change a change that

41:28

you can achieve if

41:30

you don't believe that you can achieve this change you

41:32

go is decide that was hysterical reactions

41:35

in one direction or the other way

41:37

everything is about expressing how you feel

41:40

and this is what i find kind of dramatically

41:43

changing can those dishes slightly generational

41:46

talking about the first round of the french elections

41:49

if people older than sixty five were

41:51

not allowed to vote on the french elections

41:54

president macron was i'm going to reach the second

41:56

round the second round

41:58

is going to be between dick the the fire identify

42:01

less and this type

42:03

of a sentries politics which is very much

42:05

based on compromise

42:07

on the cheating on governing very

42:10

much in my view replace a politics

42:13

as self expression we're

42:15

for me the most important is how i sill

42:17

because this is the only thing that they really believe i

42:19

can do to express

42:21

how i still i don't lose any more

42:24

in a collective project that can be realized

42:26

and to express who you are big that if the

42:28

one thing about his is a expression

42:31

of self identity

42:33

totally and from this point it at this is

42:35

the biggest story of for us identity

42:37

politics that is going and this is also

42:39

very much in the way we got

42:41

drunk what put in will do

42:43

because people believe that he's going to be very

42:45

much guided by economic considerations

42:49

this is true also in our societies about

42:51

how people vote the buses but

42:53

big theme of my book why we're polar i guess i

42:55

have i dislike the books if you

42:57

want to try to predict the way people votes

43:00

people always want to go to material

43:03

incentives he always want to go to who's

43:05

any given most money and it's to and

43:08

, is not as private that is not

43:10

describe the way people have to a vote based

43:12

on on they are and

43:15

who they want to be seen as in the world and

43:17

the vote based on who they think is gonna raise

43:19

up people like them and

43:21

we've tested this a hundred different

43:23

ways and are many many countries and

43:26

it countries always true identity

43:29

trump's policy

43:31

this is true on the level of the states

43:34

because , what you see in

43:36

ukraine ukraine a dent in

43:38

trump's interest economic

43:40

interests this address this going to be

43:43

economically devastated regardless

43:45

of how the war's going to end up but

43:47

, they did to keep

43:49

your status of a great power of

43:52

the imperial nation does she have been

43:54

key relevant in global politics he's

43:57

the one not simply that is moving what the

43:59

gov is doing it might lead also

44:01

explains why people are ready to

44:03

support policy that is going to for them

44:06

so from this point of view we have a global

44:08

spread of identity politics identity

44:10

politics stop to be kind

44:13

of characteristics of characteristics certain

44:15

groups normally minority groups

44:18

is stop to be the characteristic of stonemasons

44:21

because stump small nations were used to be much

44:23

more standard for very obvious reasons

44:25

dual identity politics suddenly

44:27

everybody's an identity politics but interesting

44:30

stories that the possible

44:33

what also to be perceived as the most

44:35

vulnerable sought went rush

44:37

is trying to position itself as the victim

44:39

of ukraine when russia's positioning

44:41

itself as a victim of cancellations yeah

44:43

exact yeah mean that that the metaphor is being

44:45

is being drawn very drawn very

44:48

didn't quite interesting because at the same time

44:50

and this is also quite important is that

44:53

when everything is identity politics

44:55

the majority cannot be taken

44:57

for granted normally in

44:59

the classical liberal democracy have denied unitas

45:02

idea was that democracy works very

45:04

well for the majority groups and this is

45:06

why all the rides discourse was focus on

45:08

minority groups

45:10

in a certain way majority discuss power

45:12

minority his rights and

45:14

suddenly

45:15

but juri described the feelings that

45:17

they don't have power anymore and

45:19

when majority says decision that they don't have power

45:22

anymore minority don't you vaults anymore because

45:25

, suddenly everybody starts filling

45:27

to as a kind to a persecuted group and i

45:29

do believe particularly in european politics which

45:31

i know better the threatened majority

45:34

the majority switch also for demographic

45:36

reasons believes the dead the minority of tomorrow

45:38

it becoming the major driving

45:41

force in politics and by the way to

45:43

, the more of

45:45

bird during the first round much stronger denser

45:48

ease the classical example of this

45:50

and by the whales or asset because many of

45:53

the things that you seen the politics as president

45:55

proteins are driven by demographics

45:57

years in the last miles because miles

45:59

should be a fall oh his statements

46:01

she's repeating that if it was not for the revolution

46:04

if it was not for the world war two is it was not

46:06

for the disintegration of the soviet union still

46:09

going to be five hundred million stress in the

46:11

world's this , of desir

46:14

of a demographic decline which

46:16

in the eyes particularly this much more traditional

46:18

politicians mean also decline

46:21

of power decline of christie's

46:24

is pushing through to do many things that better

46:26

things you has not done

46:28

yeah one of my a police about

46:30

the way politics works is

46:32

that

46:33

the identity politics when the dominance

46:36

of single identities begins to wane the

46:39

identity politics is much stronger

46:41

the years ago it's just that

46:44

small number of identities had so much

46:46

control small number of groups had so much control

46:48

sit unquestioned majority such unquestioned

46:51

power that , don't see the politics

46:53

of it be able to make the politics of it invisible

46:55

that's just the boundaries of debate

46:58

and example i always like use on this in america

47:01

is religion

47:02

there was not an open atheist

47:05

in the house representatives until two thousand and

47:07

seven

47:08

i don't do that in some urban

47:11

, run for lot longer than that and i see

47:13

you there are some not believing members not

47:15

the as members of as represented as but it was

47:18

something you could not say and

47:20

so now we have what feels to me

47:22

like more and more fierce

47:25

religious conflict

47:27

in american politics and we did when i was younger

47:29

and a lot of religious radicalization surprising

47:32

catholic it's radical integralist

47:34

group and a lot of coalition

47:37

but it's coming because secularization has

47:39

made protestant dominance far

47:42

less total such

47:45

now more identities are able to assert

47:47

a politics when that happens then

47:49

we say oh this elvis identity politics

47:51

but what it really is as i got a breakdown

47:55

of the dominance of certain identity

47:57

groups

47:58

you're absolutely right because this else the

48:00

moment when you see the breakdown of your dominos

48:03

two things happening hold

48:05

elections are basically perceived

48:07

as the most important as the last elections

48:10

the old the war is perceived the

48:13

most important as the last war i'm

48:15

absolutely sure that if somebody is

48:17

going to have an , and

48:19

us president putin why she decided

48:22

to invade ukraine and to do what she did

48:25

one of the arguments that probably he's going

48:27

to tell disks and to invisibly

48:29

interviewer invisibly dead she realized the time

48:32

does not work for him that in ten

48:34

years they're going to be

48:37

like ukrainian was be crescent in

48:40

, years they're going to be better

48:42

you korean our forces in

48:44

ten years they're going to be stronger ukrainian

48:46

identity so suddenly you have

48:48

the ceiling that idea going to do it now

48:51

we're going to do it never and a double

48:53

is also president trump was a powerful enter

48:55

into sixteenth when she was telling the republicans

48:58

this is the last elections either you're going

49:00

to elect me we do not going to

49:02

elect to meet democracies going to change is such

49:04

a way that you're never going to wins

49:06

and demanded this explains also very

49:09

much your server topic of poison

49:11

since the cars out of the

49:13

title of this for gliomas books

49:16

didn't have history in the last men's probably

49:18

we parted with a dividend of history

49:20

but now strangely dismiss

49:23

whooped is populated by the last man

49:25

says says he believes

49:27

that the extent of the last the like times studies

49:29

they're not going to going their

49:32

position their power than everything

49:34

is going to collapse and this

49:36

is also explains the sect white suture

49:40

disappeared as a kind of immobilizing

49:43

projects as societies became

49:45

very nostalgic the did was three years

49:47

ago that bertelsmann foundation

49:50

was asking europeans still

49:52

believe that the past was better than the future the

49:55

majority every single european countries

49:58

including among the young people believed

50:00

that past was better than the shooter

50:03

and of course if you're going to ask which passed

50:06

then , going to have a huge differences

50:09

but suddenly people for dreaming for the

50:11

past past is a classical

50:13

understandings of a kind of us crisis

50:16

of these basic dominance is that you're talking

50:19

about because what was better about the about

50:22

that i knew season is that

50:24

there was no baffled as as that's i was youngest

50:26

of efforts fun as it is change

50:29

people tend to seek of them as groups

50:31

and religions and and races but nationalities

50:33

and identity european is an

50:35

identity as , things i'm

50:37

interested in

50:39

how the identity of european

50:42

changing under this kind of pressure you you may

50:44

this very very good point i thought at the top of

50:46

our conversation that there's , period

50:49

when the i'd entity of europe

50:51

the reality of europe is war then

50:54

there's then postwar period as tony shut

50:56

put it the identity is that this is that place

50:58

it is all great war that is united to trade

51:00

and they are trying to expand the

51:02

assumptions identity the substance

51:04

of that philosophy over to russia

51:07

then what is the next year up if it's no longer

51:10

postwar what do you think the european

51:12

identity is

51:13

changing into

51:15

and it's a great question either i'm not

51:17

sure the done going to give you a great dancer but

51:20

you know historically emerging

51:23

forty there was

51:25

no up decreasing it's own imagination

51:28

because basically it's the world war one

51:30

was also called the european war because

51:32

it was the war of european empires

51:35

so all the power was concentrated year

51:38

and then com

51:40

world war two and a cold war and in the

51:42

cold war the to a non european

51:44

powers the united states and soviet union's

51:46

you've been taught to be dominating but

51:49

europe was the price it

51:51

was the major states it was central

51:53

basically what it means to win the cold war

51:56

it was basically to win gemini to

51:58

try to dominate europe

52:00

com and

52:01

that the cold war and item will issue

52:03

was interesting about the european project that

52:06

europe was not as important

52:08

as it was but europe try

52:10

to build his identity of being deliberate

52:12

three of the will to come europe

52:15

suddenly said we're the one which are signs

52:17

of a postmodern states we

52:19

about economy a soft power we are going

52:22

to fight each other everybody's

52:24

going to be like just simply speaks during

52:26

so southern

52:28

europe's meet itself central

52:31

based on the fact that we had this unique

52:33

experience which is exceptional but those universalist

52:37

so , this point of your your of slightly

52:39

took from the american playbook playbook

52:42

except some home but it's you exceptionalism

52:44

that makes universal makes in

52:46

fifty years of hundred years everybody's going to

52:48

be like you because everybody wants to imitate

52:51

you what happens now is

52:53

that the a blast suddenly

52:56

europe is becoming simpli

52:59

one of the regions of the world probably

53:01

the most prosperous culturally

53:03

quite interesting but we

53:06

lost our centrally to and

53:08

from this point to good the war in ukraine can

53:11

have can very different outcomes

53:13

when it comes european identity it's because

53:15

identity does this moments by the way

53:17

based on way very legitimate moral outrage

53:20

most of the european school kids rush into way

53:22

distributing kid the chernobyl reactor

53:25

after the disaster you

53:27

want to the late we

53:29

don't want to get anything to do is your we

53:31

don't want your oil we don't want your

53:33

yes we don't believe that we can change

53:35

you anymore this

53:38

is who you are simply we

53:40

want to imagine the world without you so

53:42

as a result of it either we should start to be interested

53:45

in other parts of other woods also

53:47

for the reason that you should buy from somewhere

53:49

oil and gas in nature

53:51

resources and this could be quite interesting

53:54

or europe is basically going to see

53:56

itself as the appendix to the united states which

53:58

is also very much what the happening now

54:01

in military terms but under the assumption

54:03

that the united states in see interested in this

54:07

this is the problem when you're not at the center

54:09

you cannot even takes the american

54:11

interests for granted saw

54:14

as a result of this war basically

54:16

changed dramatically the density of old

54:18

the swede players that around it

54:21

russia because

54:23

russia cannot take it's

54:26

, empire in the way putting has

54:28

been assuming it for granted just the opposite

54:31

and then of course europe who

54:33

are we're going to be i mean how

54:35

economically sustainable how politically

54:37

sustainable what is going to come up with the volume

54:40

our own project do we still belief

54:43

in share sovereignty do we still

54:45

believe that economic interdependence is

54:47

, major source of security so

54:50

all this question succumbing can i don't

54:52

believe that we know exactly what the answers are going

54:54

to be because the answers are not going to be theoretical

54:57

they're not going to be a geological they're going to be the

54:59

result of it sits on decisions

55:01

taken by certain people certain certain governments

55:04

which are going to end up in the constellation and

55:06

going back to your idea about the european

55:08

narrative now we tend to tell

55:10

the story of europe as a history of a project

55:14

he should go back and closer to what happens

55:17

this was a compromise

55:19

is certain ,

55:21

of a decisions as a response to a certain

55:23

crisis crisis is a project

55:25

when you back or

55:28

when you look very far ahead

55:31

but in a mid terms not

55:33

a project it's something different

55:36

he does a mechanism for surviving and

55:38

surviving have i have high opinion of the capacity

55:40

to political project to survive because

55:43

what gets you legitimacy

55:45

the capacity to survive is certain

55:47

project managers to survive but the different

55:49

prices it , worse

55:51

existing but that mechanism is

55:53

interesting because i second that way

55:56

there will not be the capacity to forget

55:59

about i

56:01

do not know how any of this will end i

56:03

do not pretend to have any capacity

56:05

to make relevant predictions but i think of plausible

56:08

path by be on his

56:10

russia controlling much of ukraine's

56:12

east

56:13

and it is alleged scheme has government maintaining

56:16

kievan and and the other parts of of ukraine's

56:19

you know you have a carved up ukraine you

56:21

have russian expansion you

56:24

have have that the dependence

56:26

on russian oil and gas and the

56:28

building sanction our sons

56:32

then you and fear that

56:34

ten will go further than hell do

56:36

more that he's waiting to strike again and

56:39

so

56:40

europe to say nothing of ukraine of course

56:43

europe is going to be

56:45

living with an external

56:47

unifying for a bit they might be trying

56:49

to make russia isolated but

56:51

that is an active practice right it is

56:53

a a practice of sanctions process of getting

56:56

herself off of russian gas or practice

56:58

as you say of of sand respond to crisis

57:01

and , it seems to me that one thing with

57:03

is cheating but europe now is it it has

57:06

something to fight

57:08

something to find itself against you

57:10

you go back six years and it seemed like the fundamental

57:12

fight with about the european union you press

57:15

it us this question

57:17

of whether or not the ideas become exhausted now

57:19

you have this new unity but it's

57:21

it's aimed at an external enemy i i wonder

57:24

that ground not as for sponsors

57:26

before ideas

57:28

isn't this is a trick question and answer

57:30

than way he can develop their differences one

57:32

, the thing that strikes me in the modern

57:35

woods woods in the modern

57:37

democratic quotes is the

57:40

fading power of the external enemy

57:42

to create domestic cohesion

57:45

when you see at the united

57:47

states and teacher compare basic the american

57:49

the beginning of the cold war with america what

57:51

we see now was dad's

57:54

soviet union created the lot of

57:56

using the american side

57:59

remember this same a school

58:02

from updike's what is demeaning

58:04

to be american if there is not cold war zone

58:07

a certain way cold war was the identity

58:10

this one of his character is business to

58:12

say it's enter know what

58:14

you see his dad yes on

58:16

artificial level everybody

58:19

of course is against putting but i'm sure

58:21

dad was many republicans my

58:24

than is the real enemy not putting and

58:26

probably for many democrats trump

58:28

is the real enemy not putting

58:31

saudis kinds of its

58:33

tunnel enemy that is producing an

58:35

incredible political cohesion

58:38

at home this is not

58:40

in the way it worked in a classical period

58:42

either of the cold war or even

58:44

before in the classical nation states

58:46

i always remember it does seem

58:49

as poster which , have

58:51

seen from eighteen forty eight

58:53

the poster of a worker who says

58:56

ability in one sense and

58:58

rifle india the

59:00

message was ballot for

59:02

the class enemy and bullet

59:04

for the national and him so

59:06

now you cannot understand switches to

59:08

a more important and this is why

59:11

europe is going to either be unified

59:13

because of the external threat of

59:16

fragmented because with

59:18

external threat because this is

59:20

the problem of identity politics they have a different

59:22

logic so i , much agree

59:24

with you that and by the way i'd zipped found

59:26

wrongs our discourse talking

59:29

about russia in the way we have been talking

59:31

before about democracy is if we

59:33

know how receive going to look like in the next

59:35

fifty kings it's years this

59:37

civilisational discourse the

59:39

moment when you know you

59:41

had the illusion that you know what

59:44

the country's doing you're not interested by

59:47

the way we really are not curious about

59:49

what is happening on old displaces instead

59:51

of think we don't understand why did doing this

59:53

for example why restaurants and not

59:55

have faults killing the

59:58

slough christians the about

1:00:00

all this religious discourse that was so

1:00:02

popular this government how except

1:00:04

under duress and patreon his blessing this

1:00:06

people to be killed so this is

1:00:08

an interesting

1:00:09

courses and they have announcers but

1:00:11

they did not be to be obvious answers the

1:00:13

moment when we did

1:00:14

wind rises a civilization different than others

1:00:16

that never can be done what they are now

1:00:19

we don't need to be interested the moment

1:00:21

we defined russell likes of the

1:00:23

last has no bills reactor stand

1:00:25

when it is elation because the other parts of the all

1:00:28

does not seem like this your kids can

1:00:30

imagine the world without russia but the indians

1:00:32

for the own reasons the chinese

1:00:34

for their own reasons they're going

1:00:36

to find a place for us in this will put

1:00:38

his russell possibilities russia salt

1:00:41

is russia result of it he might have this is the

1:00:43

story can this war unified

1:00:46

europe to the standards europe should build

1:00:48

standards new identity that did not exist before

1:00:51

and his identity can be based on menacing so

1:00:54

it can be also based on rediscovering

1:00:56

what did european sovereignty the

1:00:59

famous topic of my crumb what it means

1:01:01

for european union to be sovereign sovereign

1:01:04

lose respect to home to recently

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was from the united states but

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now russia china

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1:02:06

mummy and by see couple questions and

1:02:08

about america and let's go back

1:02:10

to piece you wrote shortly after joe biden

1:02:12

was elected

1:02:13

building around a big poll across

1:02:16

many countries in europe and he

1:02:18

wrote that while most europeans rejoiced

1:02:20

at your buttons victory in the november us presidential

1:02:23

election they do not think he can

1:02:25

help america make america comeback as

1:02:27

pre eminent global leader so tell

1:02:29

me what you found in that survey and then tell me if

1:02:31

you think it has changed at all

1:02:33

over this period

1:02:35

really the majority of europeans

1:02:37

we're very happy for by them to come back

1:02:39

and this was true even on the european

1:02:42

right was a very small segments

1:02:44

of you've been devoted to trump

1:02:46

trump was was a strange

1:02:49

seager for the european politics but

1:02:52

would people starts to fear and

1:02:54

i do believe that this year is not

1:02:57

disappeared was dead southerly

1:02:59

we see america subdivided that

1:03:02

every elections in america looks like a regime

1:03:04

change and

1:03:07

the present by them did a great

1:03:09

work of ,

1:03:11

group yes i do all of this was one

1:03:13

of the amazing success of his foreign policy

1:03:16

policy compared to his many other administration's

1:03:18

basically it's this administration is very

1:03:20

is to things that

1:03:23

the important to the europeans also to the a

1:03:25

symmetrical for example mates of the sanctions

1:03:27

united states compared to europe but

1:03:30

several things are going to happen first of all midterm

1:03:33

elections if we trust

1:03:35

what experts like you're telling the most

1:03:37

probably going to have a different

1:03:39

congress a different senate and then the stories

1:03:42

this america as a result of the

1:03:44

war in ukraine restore

1:03:47

certain type of foreign policy consensus

1:03:49

when it comes to europe or to what extent

1:03:51

sydney lead consensus that is

1:03:53

not endorsed neither by

1:03:56

the trump republic us know by the kind

1:03:58

of a more left wing of they'll credit parties

1:04:01

which are not particularly excited

1:04:03

of american being over engaged

1:04:05

and talking carbs and so on source

1:04:08

for europeans this is a major issue because

1:04:10

europeans before have

1:04:12

been taking the american foreign policy consensus

1:04:15

for granted and not any

1:04:17

more so from this point to get trump affect you

1:04:19

still much more in the back

1:04:21

of the minds of european leaders second

1:04:23

the and here of course president putin is touching

1:04:26

on something that they can also see in

1:04:28

eastern europe many of the things that

1:04:30

you see as an identity politics into a talking

1:04:32

about happen he can the american universities

1:04:35

a differently interpreted

1:04:37

differently interpreted europe for many reasons but the most

1:04:39

important is communism was very

1:04:41

sensitive on worth companies

1:04:44

are very much was a linguistics issue when

1:04:47

, nevsky basically that was

1:04:49

put on camp and when she was asked why she

1:04:51

was arrested he said i guess i'm

1:04:53

a grandma disagreements ways

1:04:58

the story of governments so

1:05:00

basically this kind of a major

1:05:03

focus on language make

1:05:05

this europeans nervous this

1:05:08

could be right or wrong this is against about says

1:05:10

defeats this is about didn't

1:05:12

you can't say that is europeans the right or

1:05:14

wrong and of course we don't know much about

1:05:16

what is happening in america but you said this and

1:05:19

then one of then question is how

1:05:21

easy the american progressive revolution american

1:05:23

travel them

1:05:25

of this place

1:05:26

where the composition of society's

1:05:29

different where the historically experience is

1:05:31

difference chinese a great example of this

1:05:33

to coming from a communist period to

1:05:35

so all disclose under sorts of

1:05:37

course is sad the american economy

1:05:40

during the pandemic were all of us

1:05:42

is more time you see the american

1:05:44

stock market over performing and

1:05:47

then you start asking yourself how

1:05:49

it is related to the real economy to

1:05:52

what extent basically the

1:05:54

stock market does not play in

1:05:56

the modern system the same role that

1:05:58

communist ideology late in the communist

1:06:01

regime basic that this was lives in a suitor

1:06:03

and talk about the future but it's not very clear

1:06:06

how this huge this related to the present

1:06:08

the very very interesting way of putting it

1:06:11

the other question though is

1:06:14

there's the

1:06:15

uncertainty around

1:06:18

the steadiness of american foreign policy of

1:06:21

, question of simply american power

1:06:23

can be found in that poll i referenced is it

1:06:25

sucks had a tenth of respondents

1:06:28

felt china would be more powerful than the u

1:06:30

s within ten years now

1:06:32

that might be economic that also might

1:06:34

be

1:06:35

something else a double found a sense of

1:06:37

the american political system was breaking down

1:06:39

was returning crazy results there's a lack

1:06:41

of ability to govern so doesn't just have to

1:06:43

be china rising a power kelsey america

1:06:46

losing power losing the capacity

1:06:48

to act but i wonder

1:06:50

if probably orders to

1:06:52

you are watching american

1:06:55

this period as meet you think america's stronger or

1:06:57

weaker it it's ability to act

1:06:59

abroad then you believed

1:07:01

you know it's called it's called ago

1:07:03

the request of course part of the

1:07:06

chinese advantages that when people talk

1:07:08

about power they always see the

1:07:10

change of power even if america

1:07:12

basically stronger than china what

1:07:14

we're seeing is the china basically became

1:07:17

less weaker than three suspects

1:07:19

americans into us so people

1:07:21

always impressed by change

1:07:24

there can be i'm like the united states

1:07:26

that everything is

1:07:28

the about everybody everybody

1:07:30

has the ceiling that he knows how america works

1:07:33

china for most of us is a kind of a

1:07:35

black box you know certain things but

1:07:37

you don't know how it works my colleagues

1:07:40

to com score made this argument which i found extremely

1:07:43

important she said america discovered

1:07:46

that it's major advantages are turning against

1:07:48

it for example desperate the english language

1:07:51

because of the spread of english language

1:07:54

any , of a terrorist can go

1:07:56

and serve basically rent

1:07:59

a in here in the

1:08:01

united states and the tag the

1:08:03

twin towers because american society

1:08:06

walks transparent for the foreigners because

1:08:08

they know that's language but also the culture

1:08:10

them the american culture so much dominance

1:08:13

at the same time also because of the spread

1:08:15

of the english language when

1:08:17

on american goes to a society you're

1:08:19

always going to have an english speaker so

1:08:22

speaking to the english speakers you have the feeling that

1:08:24

you know what is happening can decide but

1:08:26

quite awesome thing this because the not the most

1:08:28

representative parts decide

1:08:31

so suddenly because of the

1:08:33

american power

1:08:35

america become transparent to the

1:08:37

world but the will became totally

1:08:39

non transparent to america and

1:08:42

when you're asking the question do i see america

1:08:44

strong or not i do believe that by

1:08:46

the and did a very good for abolish had

1:08:48

to brussels or bill bonus anti american

1:08:50

intelligence community it's did with

1:08:52

this declassified intelligence as the way

1:08:54

to prevent a war was ,

1:08:57

interesting but the strength of the american

1:08:59

power very much depends to what extent american

1:09:01

societies rage allow the american government

1:09:04

years this power particularly military

1:09:06

power i don't believe that

1:09:08

nevertheless how well you arms is

1:09:10

your society has decided not to be involved

1:09:13

to be can achieve anything don't

1:09:15

forget soviet union was very well

1:09:17

armed

1:09:18

but in the late night in a this

1:09:21

after , after many disappointments

1:09:24

which they had sorted polishes

1:09:26

disappeared because society was not ready

1:09:29

to support any involvement and

1:09:31

disease the biggest problem into my into this

1:09:33

a problem balls on the republican right and on

1:09:35

the democratic lasts for different reasons

1:09:37

both of them don't trust american power

1:09:40

that's rule and always upon a

1:09:42

question what three books that have been foods

1:09:44

do feared recommend to the audience

1:09:47

one is a book which i found really really

1:09:49

very important and i see that this

1:09:51

is now well read this is sets lay up

1:09:53

this book free this is the

1:09:56

the ankle banyan political philosopher

1:09:58

teaching kindle underscore economists who

1:10:01

is reflecting on they did freedom just

1:10:03

telling the story of albania have denied tinnitus

1:10:06

and a d of freedom of for further some

1:10:08

mothers grandparents and phones and

1:10:10

the relations between political freedoms

1:10:12

and economic freedoms dutifully written

1:10:14

book really was i'm

1:10:17

a great fan of your muscles book but i know that show analysts

1:10:19

with your very so so i'm not going to

1:10:22

gifts for as example but i'm

1:10:24

going for us to recommend my

1:10:26

clan or see might have very good book on international

1:10:28

relations called dhs and peace

1:10:31

all this story of economic interdependence

1:10:34

and the weaponization of interdependence in

1:10:37

my view is very well kept her deaths

1:10:39

and assertive going to get sick some books by

1:10:41

, bulgarian and ten cent of my yogi

1:10:43

was put in of was called time shelter shelter

1:10:46

this is a interesting book and parts of

1:10:48

the book is also when europe

1:10:51

was very much kind of some founded

1:10:53

by referendums see com sees

1:10:55

a d m asking different

1:10:57

european nations to have european nations

1:11:00

were begging history they want to go and

1:11:03

trying to understand basically the new identity

1:11:05

politics of europe throw dubs

1:11:07

sentimental nostalgia of

1:11:10

, societies is also very

1:11:12

very good books which makes the minds

1:11:14

of the most most assertion

1:11:16

that the only time machine that exists that

1:11:19

, man

1:11:20

human imagination

1:11:22

i love that i've aggressive thank you

1:11:24

very much

1:11:25

thank you

1:11:35

there's a poncho is a production

1:11:38

of new york times in in is produced by and galvin

1:11:40

was a karma into gold is episode

1:11:42

is backed up by myself harris and kids eclair

1:11:45

original music by isaac jones mixed

1:11:47

and engineered by jeff elves are executive

1:11:50

producers a really good she's also thanks

1:11:52

to sun and pasta christina samuel whiskey

1:11:54

and